PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

by 41 comments
I know we all have opinions on PayPal accounts getting limited, who's fault it is, why it happens and how we can help protect ourselves...

I have just been going through this thread.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ount-reps.html

And this thread..

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ior-forum.html

One thing that sticks out is the way the different WSO networks split payments. With JVZoo & DigiResults seeming to be the safest option with splitting commissions at the checkout, rather than alternate payments.

My PayPal account was permanently limited last year, probably down to my own lack of planning.

I am looking to launch another WSO and wondered if anybody had any experience/tips with the setup least likely to cause any issues.

Obviously account age, refund rates, hypey sales copy etc all play a part...But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
#internet marketing #digiresults #issues #jvzoo #paypal #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
    I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

    I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

    The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.
    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

      I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

      The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.

      I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.

      JVzoo is probably just too new.
    • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

      I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

      The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.
      I was hoping you would respond :-)

      I had a feeling you would have a good idea on this. I was tending to think the same way. I exclusively used Warrior+ when I lost my first account.

      It does seem as though it raises less red flags what with payments coming from one account rather split between dozens of affiliates.

      Would you even go as far as to say that it would be safer to launch away from the forum entirely? I believe you launch a lot of products but I never hear of you having any problems..

      Whats your secret!?
  • Profile picture of the author loi77
    PayPal is always going to be a risk. We just have to learn to manage that risk the best we can.

    Also, there is no real alternative to PayPal. So have to use it whether we like it or not.
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

    Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

    It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

    As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

    I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
    • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

      Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

      It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

      As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

      I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
      Do you think that PayPal judge each WSO they investigate on its merits or do you think they tar everyone with the same brush?

      Speaking from experience, when my account was limited and I called them. The person I spoke to on the phone was under the impression that I owned the Warrior Forum and would not accept anything else.

      I know they have automated flags but it feels as though once it goes for manual review if they see a WSO thread they immediately put us all in the same category.

      It seems to me that the main issue lies with PayPals acceptable products/services. They are not very clear. The best interpretation seems to be to avoid Internet Marketing information products entirely.

      With that said, would it not be best if the WSO affiliate networks dont allow us to sell products that are against PayPals TOS?

      I know its a business owners responsibility to make sure they are operating within their processors terms. But by the same token, Warrior+ wouldnt allow us to sell guns through their system, so why can we sell other products that PayPal dont allow?

      I am just playing devil's advocate here...
    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

      Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

      It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

      As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

      I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
      Yes, that is true that merchant banks do review accounts and usage. Their fraud and risk management systems monitor transactions outside the merchants pre-approved parameters.

      That is why it is imperative to get bank approvals before you do business. That is the primary difference between merchant banking models and PayPal. You can sign up with PayPal instantly and find out later you're screwed when you want your money.

      The other key factor is PayPal "keeps" your money for you. It's theirs, not yours, until they send it to you. As you know, the merchant banking model sends your money directly to your local bank account.

      While it is true that a merchant bank can withdraw charge-backs from your bank account, at least you have the option to defend yourself first. Your risk is just the single payment in dispute. You don't get that "privilege" with PayPal. They can freeze your account first, seizing all your money, then ask you why they should give it back to you.

      The best strategy to solve this entire payment problem is to segment the process. PayPal has bundled the entire processing infrastructure under their dominion. This gives them total control from alpha to omega. Yes, they are god in their universe.

      To escape, we simply build our own alternative pipeline. I find it interesting that marketers who spend endless hours on writing html code, designing landing pages, crafting copy, and designing every aspect of conversion then spend so little time on protecting their money.

      After laboring 5,000 hours to earn $5,000 dollars, why would you let some punk hold all your money and then you have to beg to get it back?

      PayPal's business model is simply a protection racket. Their arrogance is galling. They can conduct their blackmail equally upon any intended or unintended victim of the day. They hold all the cards...and your money.

      By segmenting the payment process, you can select the best desirable element for each part. This is just what you do with every other part of your business. You pick the software, solutions, and systems that best fit your business model. You can do the same for your payment pipeline.

      When you market online, you can build and select the various components you want to use for your business style or buy into one of those so-called one-button millionaire models. The same exists in the payments sphere.

      With a millionaire model, you are at the mercy and success of the guru's system. Yes it works for some. Others not so well. You're doing the same with PayPal. As long as you worship the king, he'll grant you favors.

      For those that desire freedom as well as free enterprise, it may be well to develop your own escape tunnel if you ever need it or when the time is right.

      I won't take the time to detail all the elements here, but suffice it to say that there are multiple options for better solutions. PayPal's dominance will not last forever. Many in the industry are gunning for a piece of the PayPal pie, myself included. The innovations being developed everyday rival the creativity and tenacity of many members of the WF.

      PayPal has made a strategic decision to move into the mobile payments sphere. On March 15, they launched a pilot program with Home Depot to buy products with PayPal's mobile model. They've also penned an agreement in January with a payment provider for major retailers.

      This is part of the process that reveals their move to retail as they limit their online payment risk, i.e. "high-risk" affiliate and "pyramid" marketing models. That is why we see them suddenly shutting down legitimate accounts with top-level affiliates.

      Simply said, it doesn't matter how much volume you do with no problems. The more business you do the higher the risk. The processor holds the contractual liability under VISA/MC rules for charge-backs.

      When you deconstruct the processing system, their are six to nine elements depending on how you bundle or unbundle. PayPal of course is not a bank, but is simply a money transfer and escrow operation. They could be classified as the actual merchant within the sector.

      You can replicate the functions with your own elements. There is the consumer interface, secure gateway, networks, and pipeline to conduct the transaction through the banking network. We ride the rails of Visanet and FDN, and a few others when desired. PCI issues are better handled with tokenization and many new network options are moving here as well as mine.

      Without writing a treatise here, let me jump to the merchant banking aspect. Some commentary has been made along this. Let me caution not to lump your experience in with what's actually available. Like any industry, this is an art as well as a science.

      One bank, one processor, one underwriter does not an industry make. The benefit of merchant banking is there are as many options as there are merchant banks, and underwriters for that matter. I've been in the financial sector as well as marketing for almost three decades.

      I can go to one bank and be laughed out of the office or another who welcomes me with open arms. It's all a matter of what and who you know. That may not be fair, but it is reality. I know who lies and who dies. Everyone talks a good game, but not everyone can deliver. Things change too. That's why you need to know where else you can go and what your options are.

      That's why I was able to secure one unnamed super affiliate on this forum a $1.2 million annual pre-approved processing volume with up to $5,000 transactions through a major multi-national merchant bank with no financial records. I have my new favorite bank and underwriters.

      Here's the best part. If he ever has a problem with this bank, I already secured a second merchant bank approval. That's another bank, not just another account.

      Another WF member has been turned down three times. This was primarily due to his own careless mistakes and other financial issues, i.e. dozens of bad reviews online. But he is being approved today with one of my back-up merchant banking solutions. Nevertheless, we made the necessary risk and reputation management improvements to protect his business going forward.

      Remember this. Unless you're an unmitigated crook, there are always options to plug in a different merchant bank approval on the back end of your personal payment pipeline. Do not confuse merchant banks with these online alternative payment providers. Most of these just work with one merchant bank or processor.

      There are also options to reduce risk from charge-backs, high-volume product launches, "high-risk" business, and other challenges. Just like hosting companies create redundancy and routing alternatives you can do the same. Yes, you can work around bank-related risk issues too and well as get approvals even if you're on the do not process list.

      The final issue that can bring down PayPal's dominance and house of cards is payment wallets. Right now, instant checkout is available with a few clicks on PayPal. We have EFT and echeck payments now, but payment wallets will soon replicate push-button checkout.

      Would your hard-earned income and tireless labor deserve anything less than maximum protection?

      Because every business model and owner are different, I have dozens of different back-end solutions and establish new banking and network relationships every week. We are launching our own three-tier payment system with flexible back-end merchant banking options.

      A payment system can only be as good as the sum of it's parts. Innovation and access are key in the never ending quest for improvement. As fast as you can suck money into your marketing funnel, your system should be able to route it directly to your pocket as fast as possible. That includes avoiding bank risks too.

      As Bill said, you can never be completely secure, but you can sure make the maximum effort to protect yourself and your hard-earned profits. Everyone is out to take them from you so fight back.

      The best solution is your solution. Build what works for your business, volume, and protection. Don't leave your precious assets in the hand of a known abuser.
  • Profile picture of the author zaccks
    Just switch to another payment processor. you can never satisfy paypal.

    The problem with paypal is that even if you maintain their rules and the person making the purchase do some unusual activity they will suspend both the buyer and the seller's account.

    use payment processors that accept both paypal/credit cards, so that you can finally withdraw your funds without any problemz

    As for paypal, Everyone is complaining! TODAY OR TOMORROW
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I wanted to thank Derrick (Centurian), Big Mike and Andy Fletcher for their contributions to this thread. They have almost single-handedly made this thread worth reading.

    Of course, I don't have any Thanks buttons left today, so my sincere "Thank You" here will have to do for now.
  • Profile picture of the author HX3MEDIA
    I disagree!! I have products Affiliates promote and I promote for people. Its hard to compare Amazon to clickbank, clickshare, etc.... Downloadable products in which a Seller has minimal cost...Im happy to pay 50% or more.. If its a physical product it's different, they have a lower margin to work with... Affiliates are a crucial part of a business.. Where the hell else you going to find someone to spend their cash on advertising, etc.. and there time with no guarantee of any payment..

    Your Logic is Flawed.. Let Google, Facebook, etc stop taking affiliates money for ads and see what happens to revenue.!! Let's see how Amazon would do if they cut out their Affiliate program........Hmmmmmmmm

    Simple Math is as a Vendor I would rather have 50% of 100 sales than 100% of 5 sales..
    A good vendor will look out for his affiliates...
  • Profile picture of the author 1shotoffers
    Well since I don't see anyone else discussing this, I am going to offer a warning to any vendors/merchants that plan on using any system offering Paypal Adaptive payments (or split commissions as it's come to be known).

    Scammers are targeting split commission systems and exploiting the split commissions which can cause vendors not only to lose hundreds or even thousands, but also have their accounts limited or frozen by Paypal as a result of not only excessive refunds, but because of suspicious or fraudulent activity all caused by this "scam".

    Here's how the scam works. The scammers signup as affiliates for a vendors product. In many cases they sign up with multiple accounts. They will often use fake IPs and create their email accounts to appear to be U.S., Canada or U.K. based. Once they are approved to promote a given vendors products they quickly jump into action and make purchases via their affiliate link with hacked paypal accounts or credit cards. Once they've hit their "target" amount (which usually happens very quickly) they simply terminate the association between their Paypal account and the site offering the split pay system.

    Thus, in a few days, the "unauthorized use" claims start to pour in and in case of credit cards, chargebacks pile up. In normal cases, when you refund a payment, the association of their Paypal account would allow for you to also recover the commission paid to the affiliate. However, these scammers have already cancelled this association so you wind up refunding the unwitting customer the full purchase price, but LOSE the commission already paid to the affiliate forever.

    But on Paypal's end, they see a flury of unauthorized account uses and chargebacks and suddenly your account is limited for suspicious activity and the subsequent high number of refunds associated with the Inquiries. What's worse is it happened because of Paypal's own API that they in fact endorse as being "safer"!

    This is not speculation. It's happened to me personally and to others that I know. In my case my account was in good standing for over 12 years and not until I chose to sell via the split pay system and get scammed in this manner was there ever a problem. Luckily in my case I was able to show the relationship between the spilt pay purchases and the unauthorized uses and was restored.

    Conceivably, this is why some have incorporated delayed payment to affiliate schemes etc. However, when you have to start screening each and every affiliate and then manage delayed payments over several weeks etc, the "wait your turn" system such as Warrior Plus' original system and RAP type scripts starts to look more and more appealing. In the end it seems more secure as well as it's kind of tough to scam this way when some of the purchases made would be directly through their own account and thus put them at the same risk.

    I see that Warrior Plus is now offering the split payment option I but don't think that $3.99 per account is going to deter scammers from signing up as affiliates when their "take" could be hundreds per account before any knows what's hit them.
  • Profile picture of the author carolw44
    I'm experiencing that issue right now. It's not much fun.
  • Profile picture of the author Rampo
    When its working smoothly paypal is like butter... but when something happens. oh geez so many headaches!

    But I still prefer paypal as it is the easiest and most common way that I get paid.

    Tried out alertpay / payza... even more unsatisfied...
  • Profile picture of the author JayWiz
    This is very interesting thread, i remembered i also asked the same question regarding paypal as payment processing on another forum. I also looking for answers for this problem, how paypal ban system works. I noticed many big players can also get this issue but on the other side there are many others also who seems on the safe zone.

    Do you ever notice why some big gurus or product seller seems don't have this issue? example like Market Samurai, they still use paypal till now and already have more than 400,000 users, no problems till now.

    Until this can be solved, i decided to use other payment system such as 2checkout, i know it still not safe but at least it doesn't have many horror stories like paypal. As for affiliates my choice is using clickbank, i can receive payment safe using check and my affiliates still paid by clickbank, win-win solution at least for me.

    Maybe some big wso sellers can shed some light here? )
  • Profile picture of the author williamk
    Paypal Sucks Period. You should go to 2CO if you want to pull big volume and safely too. Paypal is just moronic.

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