PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Profile picture of the author linkwhizz by
I know we all have opinions on PayPal accounts getting limited, who's fault it is, why it happens and how we can help protect ourselves...

I have just been going through this thread.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ount-reps.html

And this thread..

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ior-forum.html

One thing that sticks out is the way the different WSO networks split payments. With JVZoo & DigiResults seeming to be the safest option with splitting commissions at the checkout, rather than alternate payments.

My PayPal account was permanently limited last year, probably down to my own lack of planning.

I am looking to launch another WSO and wondered if anybody had any experience/tips with the setup least likely to cause any issues.

Obviously account age, refund rates, hypey sales copy etc all play a part...But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
#internet marketing #digiresults #issues #jvzoo #paypal #warrior

  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
    I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

    I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

    The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

    I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

    The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.

    I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.

    JVzoo is probably just too new.
  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

    I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

    The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.
    I was hoping you would respond :-)

    I had a feeling you would have a good idea on this. I was tending to think the same way. I exclusively used Warrior+ when I lost my first account.

    It does seem as though it raises less red flags what with payments coming from one account rather split between dozens of affiliates.

    Would you even go as far as to say that it would be safer to launch away from the forum entirely? I believe you launch a lot of products but I never hear of you having any problems..

    Whats your secret!?
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.
    I know there was a scam running there a while back, but I discounted that because it wasn't really DigiResults that was at issue... it was affiliates that actively exploited the system to steal money from PayPal. Is this what you were thinking about, or are there other cases?

    JVzoo is probably just too new.
    That's my expectation as well.
  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.

    JVzoo is probably just too new.
    Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

    Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    Whats your secret!?

    Caliban no longer offers products on the forum. I don't remember the reason why, but I am sure he will tell you.


    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    I know there was a scam running there a while back, but I discounted that because it wasn't really DigiResults that was at issue... it was affiliates that actively exploited the system to steal money from PayPal. Is this what you were thinking about, or are there other cases?

    The cases I know of were the result of affiliates running scams to rip off PayPal, but vendors accounts were getting shut down somehow in that process.
  • Profile picture of the author Simmeon
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

    Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
    What's ever 100% safe?
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

    Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model

    No system is bulletproof... Not those that use PayPal or those that do not utilize PayPal.

    The only way to be truly bulletproof is to only take cash in the mail -- no checks, no money orders... Cash only...

    Everything we do is about Risk Management.

    Running WSO's is a risk, but so is running sales from your own site...

    WSO's are advantageous, because thru the aforementioned services, you can access affiliates who are willing to promote your offers.
  • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post


    Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
    In my opinion, WSO's can be an egg in the basket but should not be a complete business model.

    Dealing with Paypal as your payment processor is a completely independent issue. There are ways to position yourself nice nice with them - and as mentioned, that is just necessary risk management.
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    Would you even go as far as to say that it would be safer to launch away from the forum entirely?
    Safer? No. I've been doing that, but it's not because I think WSOs are dangerous to my PayPal account... it's because I think they're dangerous to my business.

    For about a year and a half, every dime I made from product sales was made on the WSO forum, and I didn't like that. Many people I respected advised me that it was Very Very Stupid to make 100% of my income on the WSO forum.

    So on June 23, I shut down all my WSOs and moved all my products off the forum and said "I shall run no WSOs for a year." Mostly to prove I can do it, which I kinda sorta can't in any reasonable sense.

    Honestly, I am making just about squat launching stuff outside the forum, and the primary effect has been to get my finances tightened up to such an obscene degree that I can live on almost nothing. Which is a good thing, really. Positive effect. Not easy, not fun, but positive. Although it's led me to some very harsh conclusions about this industry and the people in it.

    Whats your secret!?
    I wouldn't call it a secret, but there's definitely a big difference in the way I manage PayPal.

    I use PayPal as my primary account.

    I never pull funds from PayPal into my bank - only the other way around. If I have cash, or a cheque, or get a direct deposit, that goes into my actual bank account... and then I move it into PayPal.

    You can probably hear people recoiling in horror from this idea even now.

    There's another aspect to this, as well, namely that I've had a business account on PayPal since they were still x.com and that account has done some serious volume in the past. So PayPal is already pretty relaxed and groovy about the pattern of nothing happening for several months, but then suddenly thousands of dollars pour into the account... and most of it sits there for weeks untouched.

    Essentially, I'm just about the lowest-risk customer they've got. Most of what I do makes PayPal money, and hardly anything costs them money or exposes them to any significant risk. That's really the key factor with PayPal... they're looking for risky behaviours, and I kind of don't have any.
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    The cases I know of were the result of affiliates running scams to rip off PayPal, but vendors accounts were getting shut down somehow in that process.
    From the outside, with no direct inside information about it, my perception was that PayPal suspected the vendors of colluding with the affiliates and splitting the money.

    There was a report - I'm not sure if this was true or not - that people were opening several PayPal accounts that all linked to the same bank account (I'm told this is no longer allowed, BTW). So I'd expect the suspicion was that not only were the affiliates and their accounts fictitious, but they were being created by the vendor.

    The scam also involved lots of sales transactions followed immediately by refunds, skyrocketing the vendor's refund rates straight into double-digits. That might have been enough to get accounts closed, too.
  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
    I don't really see how using JVZoo or DigiResults (Adaptive Payments) could make any difference (with one exception I'll explain). The "Primary Receiver" (the seller) is always at some degree of risk, depending on many factors related specifically to their PayPal account.

    JVZoo and Digiresults are "Safer" for Affiliates than W+ for one reason - W+ rotates payments, which always makes the Affiliate the Primary Receiver for any sales they make. With Adaptive Payments, the Affiliate is NEVER the Primary Receiver, which significantly lowers the risk for them.

    Disclaimer: We're presently beta testing our own Adaptive Payments solution that is similar in functionality to JVZoo and Digiresults.

    That said, none of these solutions (and I include my own in that group) can positively state that they're "Safer" for any given seller than the others.

    All of these systems attract a large IM user base, which is, in and of itself, a high risk market.
  • Profile picture of the author loi77
    PayPal is always going to be a risk. We just have to learn to manage that risk the best we can.

    Also, there is no real alternative to PayPal. So have to use it whether we like it or not.
  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    Safer? No. I've been doing that, but it's not because I think WSOs are dangerous to my PayPal account... it's because I think they're dangerous to my business.

    For about a year and a half, every dime I made from product sales was made on the WSO forum, and I didn't like that. Many people I respected advised me that it was Very Very Stupid to make 100% of my income on the WSO forum.

    So on June 23, I shut down all my WSOs and moved all my products off the forum and said "I shall run no WSOs for a year." Mostly to prove I can do it, which I kinda sorta can't in any reasonable sense.

    Honestly, I am making just about squat launching stuff outside the forum, and the primary effect has been to get my finances tightened up to such an obscene degree that I can live on almost nothing. Which is a good thing, really. Positive effect. Not easy, not fun, but positive. Although it's led me to some very harsh conclusions about this industry and the people in it.



    I wouldn't call it a secret, but there's definitely a big difference in the way I manage PayPal.

    I use PayPal as my primary account.

    I never pull funds from PayPal into my bank - only the other way around. If I have cash, or a cheque, or get a direct deposit, that goes into my actual bank account... and then I move it into PayPal.

    You can probably hear people recoiling in horror from this idea even now.

    There's another aspect to this, as well, namely that I've had a business account on PayPal since they were still x.com and that account has done some serious volume in the past. So PayPal is already pretty relaxed and groovy about the pattern of nothing happening for several months, but then suddenly thousands of dollars pour into the account... and most of it sits there for weeks untouched.

    Essentially, I'm just about the lowest-risk customer they've got. Most of what I do makes PayPal money, and hardly anything costs them money or exposes them to any significant risk. That's really the key factor with PayPal... they're looking for risky behaviours, and I kind of don't have any.
    That makes sense, I have toyed with this idea of leaving all money inside PayPal. My issues have only EVER happened when I tried to withdraw money..

    But that comes with its own risks..

    Unfortunately Paypal don't have a debit card in the UK or I would just use it as a bank account.

    I dont really have any choice but to try and transfer money to my bank. There is no other way of getting it out.

    Im starting to think that the best option is to get a merchant account. Setup a private affiliate program with Nanacast/Infusionsoft and accept the fact that the business model of launching and promoting WSOs is too risky to be the only source of income.

    I guess we all need to realise that WSOs are a cherry on the cake and can be taken away at any time..

    (For clarity, the business model Im talking about is highly promoted WSO launches. In my experience Warrior Forum "foot traffic" accounts for less than 5% of the sales of a big launch)
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

    Im starting to think that the best option is to get a merchant account. Setup a private affiliate program with Nanacast/Infusionsoft and accept the fact that the business model of launching and promoting WSOs is too risky to be the only source of income.
    To be clear, I don't think launching and promoting WSOs is in any way "risky." I think it's no more or less risky than anything else.

    What disturbed me about it was realising that of the half-dozen things I was doing online, the only one making me any money at all was WSOs.

    Now, the average internet marketer would say "Great! Launch a buttload of WSOs and get rich!" - and I did get some criticism for not doing that.

    But I am a ludologist. I view the world and its components as a game - a system with rules, players, win conditions, and boundaries. (Additionally, a game is a subset of a culture, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.) So I tend to apply the theories and concepts of games to the world at large. And in this case, I was put in mind of Raph Koster's statement on strengths and weaknesses in games:
    "People will usually choose to play the games they are already good at, that reflect their strengths. Arguably, they should seek out the games that address their weaknesses instead."
    So I sought the game that addressed my weakness by leaving the game that reflected my strength, thereby forcing myself to deal with it through another game.

    This isn't the first time I've done this. I was a professional software developer and project manager for twenty years before getting into IM, and believe me, there have been many times I've wanted to just throw in the towel and join another project at Microsoft.

    But that's my strength, and I am addressing my weakness - I am doing the internet marketing thing because I am bad at marketing. Running off to write code again might be comfortable and familiar, but it doesn't make anything better.
  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

    To be clear, I don't think launching and promoting WSOs is in any way "risky." I think it's no more or less risky than anything else.

    What disturbed me about it was realising that of the half-dozen things I was doing online, the only one making me any money at all was WSOs.

    Now, the average internet marketer would say "Great! Launch a buttload of WSOs and get rich!" - and I did get some criticism for not doing that.

    But I am a ludologist. I view the world and its components as a game - a system with rules, players, win conditions, and boundaries. (Additionally, a game is a subset of a culture, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.) So I tend to apply the theories and concepts of games to the world at large. And in this case, I was put in mind of Raph Koster's statement on strengths and weaknesses in games:
    "People will usually choose to play the games they are already good at, that reflect their strengths. Arguably, they should seek out the games that address their weaknesses instead."
    So I sought the game that addressed my weakness by leaving the game that reflected my strength, thereby forcing myself to deal with it through another game.

    This isn't the first time I've done this. I was a professional software developer and project manager for twenty years before getting into IM, and believe me, there have been many times I've wanted to just throw in the towel and join another project at Microsoft.

    But that's my strength, and I am addressing my weakness - I am doing the internet marketing thing because I am bad at marketing. Running off to write code again might be comfortable and familiar, but it doesn't make anything better.
    Certainly in my case it was more risky. In that PayPal dont seem to be too keen on the business model of selling the types of products I created and the systems I chose to use to sell them..

    It was more risky than say, getting a merchant account, explaining my business model, accepting the inevitable reserves and setting up my own affiliate program.

    There seems to be a lot less chance of having your business forced to stop trading if you dont rely on selling WSOs.

    I dont feel my products were low quality, misleading or hypey. I feel the problem lies in that with a PayPal account your business model is not scrutinzed until AFTER your account is flagged..by then its too late.

    Yet with a merchant account, they wont allow you trade until AFTER they have assesed your business model and agreed they will work with you.
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

    Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

    It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

    As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

    I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

    JVZoo and Digiresults are "Safer" for Affiliates than W+ for one reason - W+ rotates payments, which always makes the Affiliate the Primary Receiver for any sales they make. With Adaptive Payments, the Affiliate is NEVER the Primary Receiver, which significantly lowers the risk for them.
    That's exactly why I've been planning on switching from W+ to JVZoo and Digi as an affiliate. Just to minimize risk as much as possible.

    While I love the variety of offers at W+, unless they start using Adaptive Payments, I see it as high risk (not to mention customer service is a biznitch having to communicate with product vendor and customer at the same time, because you can't count on the vendors to be as good as you are at taking care of customers).
  • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
    Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

    It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

    Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

    It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

    As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

    I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
    Do you think that PayPal judge each WSO they investigate on its merits or do you think they tar everyone with the same brush?

    Speaking from experience, when my account was limited and I called them. The person I spoke to on the phone was under the impression that I owned the Warrior Forum and would not accept anything else.

    I know they have automated flags but it feels as though once it goes for manual review if they see a WSO thread they immediately put us all in the same category.

    It seems to me that the main issue lies with PayPals acceptable products/services. They are not very clear. The best interpretation seems to be to avoid Internet Marketing information products entirely.

    With that said, would it not be best if the WSO affiliate networks dont allow us to sell products that are against PayPals TOS?

    I know its a business owners responsibility to make sure they are operating within their processors terms. But by the same token, Warrior+ wouldnt allow us to sell guns through their system, so why can we sell other products that PayPal dont allow?

    I am just playing devil's advocate here...
  • Profile picture of the author Centurian
    Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

    It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

    Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

    It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

    As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

    I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
    Yes, that is true that merchant banks do review accounts and usage. Their fraud and risk management systems monitor transactions outside the merchants pre-approved parameters.

    That is why it is imperative to get bank approvals before you do business. That is the primary difference between merchant banking models and PayPal. You can sign up with PayPal instantly and find out later you're screwed when you want your money.

    The other key factor is PayPal "keeps" your money for you. It's theirs, not yours, until they send it to you. As you know, the merchant banking model sends your money directly to your local bank account.

    While it is true that a merchant bank can withdraw charge-backs from your bank account, at least you have the option to defend yourself first. Your risk is just the single payment in dispute. You don't get that "privilege" with PayPal. They can freeze your account first, seizing all your money, then ask you why they should give it back to you.

    The best strategy to solve this entire payment problem is to segment the process. PayPal has bundled the entire processing infrastructure under their dominion. This gives them total control from alpha to omega. Yes, they are god in their universe.

    To escape, we simply build our own alternative pipeline. I find it interesting that marketers who spend endless hours on writing html code, designing landing pages, crafting copy, and designing every aspect of conversion then spend so little time on protecting their money.

    After laboring 5,000 hours to earn $5,000 dollars, why would you let some punk hold all your money and then you have to beg to get it back?

    PayPal's business model is simply a protection racket. Their arrogance is galling. They can conduct their blackmail equally upon any intended or unintended victim of the day. They hold all the cards...and your money.

    By segmenting the payment process, you can select the best desirable element for each part. This is just what you do with every other part of your business. You pick the software, solutions, and systems that best fit your business model. You can do the same for your payment pipeline.

    When you market online, you can build and select the various components you want to use for your business style or buy into one of those so-called one-button millionaire models. The same exists in the payments sphere.

    With a millionaire model, you are at the mercy and success of the guru's system. Yes it works for some. Others not so well. You're doing the same with PayPal. As long as you worship the king, he'll grant you favors.

    For those that desire freedom as well as free enterprise, it may be well to develop your own escape tunnel if you ever need it or when the time is right.

    I won't take the time to detail all the elements here, but suffice it to say that there are multiple options for better solutions. PayPal's dominance will not last forever. Many in the industry are gunning for a piece of the PayPal pie, myself included. The innovations being developed everyday rival the creativity and tenacity of many members of the WF.

    PayPal has made a strategic decision to move into the mobile payments sphere. On March 15, they launched a pilot program with Home Depot to buy products with PayPal's mobile model. They've also penned an agreement in January with a payment provider for major retailers.

    This is part of the process that reveals their move to retail as they limit their online payment risk, i.e. "high-risk" affiliate and "pyramid" marketing models. That is why we see them suddenly shutting down legitimate accounts with top-level affiliates.

    Simply said, it doesn't matter how much volume you do with no problems. The more business you do the higher the risk. The processor holds the contractual liability under VISA/MC rules for charge-backs.

    When you deconstruct the processing system, their are six to nine elements depending on how you bundle or unbundle. PayPal of course is not a bank, but is simply a money transfer and escrow operation. They could be classified as the actual merchant within the sector.

    You can replicate the functions with your own elements. There is the consumer interface, secure gateway, networks, and pipeline to conduct the transaction through the banking network. We ride the rails of Visanet and FDN, and a few others when desired. PCI issues are better handled with tokenization and many new network options are moving here as well as mine.

    Without writing a treatise here, let me jump to the merchant banking aspect. Some commentary has been made along this. Let me caution not to lump your experience in with what's actually available. Like any industry, this is an art as well as a science.

    One bank, one processor, one underwriter does not an industry make. The benefit of merchant banking is there are as many options as there are merchant banks, and underwriters for that matter. I've been in the financial sector as well as marketing for almost three decades.

    I can go to one bank and be laughed out of the office or another who welcomes me with open arms. It's all a matter of what and who you know. That may not be fair, but it is reality. I know who lies and who dies. Everyone talks a good game, but not everyone can deliver. Things change too. That's why you need to know where else you can go and what your options are.

    That's why I was able to secure one unnamed super affiliate on this forum a $1.2 million annual pre-approved processing volume with up to $5,000 transactions through a major multi-national merchant bank with no financial records. I have my new favorite bank and underwriters.

    Here's the best part. If he ever has a problem with this bank, I already secured a second merchant bank approval. That's another bank, not just another account.

    Another WF member has been turned down three times. This was primarily due to his own careless mistakes and other financial issues, i.e. dozens of bad reviews online. But he is being approved today with one of my back-up merchant banking solutions. Nevertheless, we made the necessary risk and reputation management improvements to protect his business going forward.

    Remember this. Unless you're an unmitigated crook, there are always options to plug in a different merchant bank approval on the back end of your personal payment pipeline. Do not confuse merchant banks with these online alternative payment providers. Most of these just work with one merchant bank or processor.

    There are also options to reduce risk from charge-backs, high-volume product launches, "high-risk" business, and other challenges. Just like hosting companies create redundancy and routing alternatives you can do the same. Yes, you can work around bank-related risk issues too and well as get approvals even if you're on the do not process list.

    The final issue that can bring down PayPal's dominance and house of cards is payment wallets. Right now, instant checkout is available with a few clicks on PayPal. We have EFT and echeck payments now, but payment wallets will soon replicate push-button checkout.

    Would your hard-earned income and tireless labor deserve anything less than maximum protection?

    Because every business model and owner are different, I have dozens of different back-end solutions and establish new banking and network relationships every week. We are launching our own three-tier payment system with flexible back-end merchant banking options.

    A payment system can only be as good as the sum of it's parts. Innovation and access are key in the never ending quest for improvement. As fast as you can suck money into your marketing funnel, your system should be able to route it directly to your pocket as fast as possible. That includes avoiding bank risks too.

    As Bill said, you can never be completely secure, but you can sure make the maximum effort to protect yourself and your hard-earned profits. Everyone is out to take them from you so fight back.

    The best solution is your solution. Build what works for your business, volume, and protection. Don't leave your precious assets in the hand of a known abuser.

Next Topics on Trending Feed