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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:25 AM   #1
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Default PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I know we all have opinions on PayPal accounts getting limited, who's fault it is, why it happens and how we can help protect ourselves...

I have just been going through this thread.

I have great Paypal account reps!

And this thread..

Ban PayPal from Warrior Forum?

One thing that sticks out is the way the different WSO networks split payments. With JVZoo & DigiResults seeming to be the safest option with splitting commissions at the checkout, rather than alternate payments.

My PayPal account was permanently limited last year, probably down to my own lack of planning.

I am looking to launch another WSO and wondered if anybody had any experience/tips with the setup least likely to cause any issues.

Obviously account age, refund rates, hypey sales copy etc all play a part...But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:36 AM   #2
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
But does anybody have any direct experience that JVZoo & DigiResults are safer for an account than Warrior+?
I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.

"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.

I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.

JVzoo is probably just too new.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:46 AM   #4
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
I know for a fact that some Warriors have had their PayPal accounts frozen over activity through WSO Pro.

I am not aware of any Warrior who has had a PayPal account frozen over activity through JVZoo or DigiResults.

The evidence certainly suggests that they are safer, but is also not conclusive.
I was hoping you would respond :-)

I had a feeling you would have a good idea on this. I was tending to think the same way. I exclusively used Warrior+ when I lost my first account.

It does seem as though it raises less red flags what with payments coming from one account rather split between dozens of affiliates.

Would you even go as far as to say that it would be safer to launch away from the forum entirely? I believe you launch a lot of products but I never hear of you having any problems..

Whats your secret!?
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
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I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.
I know there was a scam running there a while back, but I discounted that because it wasn't really DigiResults that was at issue... it was affiliates that actively exploited the system to steal money from PayPal. Is this what you were thinking about, or are there other cases?

Quote:
JVzoo is probably just too new.
That's my expectation as well.

"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpw View Post
I know for a fact people who got their PayPal accounts frozen over using DigiResults for payments.

JVzoo is probably just too new.
Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
Whats your secret!?

Caliban no longer offers products on the forum. I don't remember the reason why, but I am sure he will tell you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
I know there was a scam running there a while back, but I discounted that because it wasn't really DigiResults that was at issue... it was affiliates that actively exploited the system to steal money from PayPal. Is this what you were thinking about, or are there other cases?

The cases I know of were the result of affiliates running scams to rip off PayPal, but vendors accounts were getting shut down somehow in that process.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
What's ever 100% safe?
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model

No system is bulletproof... Not those that use PayPal or those that do not utilize PayPal.

The only way to be truly bulletproof is to only take cash in the mail -- no checks, no money orders... Cash only...

Everything we do is about Risk Management.

Running WSO's is a risk, but so is running sales from your own site...

WSO's are advantageous, because thru the aforementioned services, you can access affiliates who are willing to promote your offers.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post

Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
In my opinion, WSO's can be an egg in the basket but should not be a complete business model.

Dealing with Paypal as your payment processor is a completely independent issue. There are ways to position yourself nice nice with them - and as mentioned, that is just necessary risk management.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
Would you even go as far as to say that it would be safer to launch away from the forum entirely?
Safer? No. I've been doing that, but it's not because I think WSOs are dangerous to my PayPal account... it's because I think they're dangerous to my business.

For about a year and a half, every dime I made from product sales was made on the WSO forum, and I didn't like that. Many people I respected advised me that it was Very Very Stupid to make 100% of my income on the WSO forum.

So on June 23, I shut down all my WSOs and moved all my products off the forum and said "I shall run no WSOs for a year." Mostly to prove I can do it, which I kinda sorta can't in any reasonable sense.

Honestly, I am making just about squat launching stuff outside the forum, and the primary effect has been to get my finances tightened up to such an obscene degree that I can live on almost nothing. Which is a good thing, really. Positive effect. Not easy, not fun, but positive. Although it's led me to some very harsh conclusions about this industry and the people in it.

Quote:
Whats your secret!?
I wouldn't call it a secret, but there's definitely a big difference in the way I manage PayPal.

I use PayPal as my primary account.

I never pull funds from PayPal into my bank - only the other way around. If I have cash, or a cheque, or get a direct deposit, that goes into my actual bank account... and then I move it into PayPal.

You can probably hear people recoiling in horror from this idea even now.

There's another aspect to this, as well, namely that I've had a business account on PayPal since they were still x.com and that account has done some serious volume in the past. So PayPal is already pretty relaxed and groovy about the pattern of nothing happening for several months, but then suddenly thousands of dollars pour into the account... and most of it sits there for weeks untouched.

Essentially, I'm just about the lowest-risk customer they've got. Most of what I do makes PayPal money, and hardly anything costs them money or exposes them to any significant risk. That's really the key factor with PayPal... they're looking for risky behaviours, and I kind of don't have any.

"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:22 AM   #12
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpw View Post
The cases I know of were the result of affiliates running scams to rip off PayPal, but vendors accounts were getting shut down somehow in that process.
From the outside, with no direct inside information about it, my perception was that PayPal suspected the vendors of colluding with the affiliates and splitting the money.

There was a report - I'm not sure if this was true or not - that people were opening several PayPal accounts that all linked to the same bank account (I'm told this is no longer allowed, BTW). So I'd expect the suspicion was that not only were the affiliates and their accounts fictitious, but they were being created by the vendor.

The scam also involved lots of sales transactions followed immediately by refunds, skyrocketing the vendor's refund rates straight into double-digits. That might have been enough to get accounts closed, too.

"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:35 AM   #13
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I don't really see how using JVZoo or DigiResults (Adaptive Payments) could make any difference (with one exception I'll explain). The "Primary Receiver" (the seller) is always at some degree of risk, depending on many factors related specifically to their PayPal account.

JVZoo and Digiresults are "Safer" for Affiliates than W+ for one reason - W+ rotates payments, which always makes the Affiliate the Primary Receiver for any sales they make. With Adaptive Payments, the Affiliate is NEVER the Primary Receiver, which significantly lowers the risk for them.

Disclaimer: We're presently beta testing our own Adaptive Payments solution that is similar in functionality to JVZoo and Digiresults.

That said, none of these solutions (and I include my own in that group) can positively state that they're "Safer" for any given seller than the others.

All of these systems attract a large IM user base, which is, in and of itself, a high risk market.
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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

PayPal is always going to be a risk. We just have to learn to manage that risk the best we can.

Also, there is no real alternative to PayPal. So have to use it whether we like it or not.


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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
Safer? No. I've been doing that, but it's not because I think WSOs are dangerous to my PayPal account... it's because I think they're dangerous to my business.

For about a year and a half, every dime I made from product sales was made on the WSO forum, and I didn't like that. Many people I respected advised me that it was Very Very Stupid to make 100% of my income on the WSO forum.

So on June 23, I shut down all my WSOs and moved all my products off the forum and said "I shall run no WSOs for a year." Mostly to prove I can do it, which I kinda sorta can't in any reasonable sense.

Honestly, I am making just about squat launching stuff outside the forum, and the primary effect has been to get my finances tightened up to such an obscene degree that I can live on almost nothing. Which is a good thing, really. Positive effect. Not easy, not fun, but positive. Although it's led me to some very harsh conclusions about this industry and the people in it.



I wouldn't call it a secret, but there's definitely a big difference in the way I manage PayPal.

I use PayPal as my primary account.

I never pull funds from PayPal into my bank - only the other way around. If I have cash, or a cheque, or get a direct deposit, that goes into my actual bank account... and then I move it into PayPal.

You can probably hear people recoiling in horror from this idea even now.

There's another aspect to this, as well, namely that I've had a business account on PayPal since they were still x.com and that account has done some serious volume in the past. So PayPal is already pretty relaxed and groovy about the pattern of nothing happening for several months, but then suddenly thousands of dollars pour into the account... and most of it sits there for weeks untouched.

Essentially, I'm just about the lowest-risk customer they've got. Most of what I do makes PayPal money, and hardly anything costs them money or exposes them to any significant risk. That's really the key factor with PayPal... they're looking for risky behaviours, and I kind of don't have any.
That makes sense, I have toyed with this idea of leaving all money inside PayPal. My issues have only EVER happened when I tried to withdraw money..

But that comes with its own risks..

Unfortunately Paypal don't have a debit card in the UK or I would just use it as a bank account.

I dont really have any choice but to try and transfer money to my bank. There is no other way of getting it out.

Im starting to think that the best option is to get a merchant account. Setup a private affiliate program with Nanacast/Infusionsoft and accept the fact that the business model of launching and promoting WSOs is too risky to be the only source of income.

I guess we all need to realise that WSOs are a cherry on the cake and can be taken away at any time..

(For clarity, the business model Im talking about is highly promoted WSO launches. In my experience Warrior Forum "foot traffic" accounts for less than 5% of the sales of a big launch)
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Unread 16th April 2012, 07:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Im starting to think that the best option is to get a merchant account. Setup a private affiliate program with Nanacast/Infusionsoft and accept the fact that the business model of launching and promoting WSOs is too risky to be the only source of income.
To be clear, I don't think launching and promoting WSOs is in any way "risky." I think it's no more or less risky than anything else.

What disturbed me about it was realising that of the half-dozen things I was doing online, the only one making me any money at all was WSOs.

Now, the average internet marketer would say "Great! Launch a buttload of WSOs and get rich!" - and I did get some criticism for not doing that.

But I am a ludologist. I view the world and its components as a game - a system with rules, players, win conditions, and boundaries. (Additionally, a game is a subset of a culture, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.) So I tend to apply the theories and concepts of games to the world at large. And in this case, I was put in mind of Raph Koster's statement on strengths and weaknesses in games:
"People will usually choose to play the games they are already good at, that reflect their strengths. Arguably, they should seek out the games that address their weaknesses instead."
So I sought the game that addressed my weakness by leaving the game that reflected my strength, thereby forcing myself to deal with it through another game.

This isn't the first time I've done this. I was a professional software developer and project manager for twenty years before getting into IM, and believe me, there have been many times I've wanted to just throw in the towel and join another project at Microsoft.

But that's my strength, and I am addressing my weakness - I am doing the internet marketing thing because I am bad at marketing. Running off to write code again might be comfortable and familiar, but it doesn't make anything better.

"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Unread 16th April 2012, 07:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post
To be clear, I don't think launching and promoting WSOs is in any way "risky." I think it's no more or less risky than anything else.

What disturbed me about it was realising that of the half-dozen things I was doing online, the only one making me any money at all was WSOs.

Now, the average internet marketer would say "Great! Launch a buttload of WSOs and get rich!" - and I did get some criticism for not doing that.

But I am a ludologist. I view the world and its components as a game - a system with rules, players, win conditions, and boundaries. (Additionally, a game is a subset of a culture, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.) So I tend to apply the theories and concepts of games to the world at large. And in this case, I was put in mind of Raph Koster's statement on strengths and weaknesses in games:
"People will usually choose to play the games they are already good at, that reflect their strengths. Arguably, they should seek out the games that address their weaknesses instead."
So I sought the game that addressed my weakness by leaving the game that reflected my strength, thereby forcing myself to deal with it through another game.

This isn't the first time I've done this. I was a professional software developer and project manager for twenty years before getting into IM, and believe me, there have been many times I've wanted to just throw in the towel and join another project at Microsoft.

But that's my strength, and I am addressing my weakness - I am doing the internet marketing thing because I am bad at marketing. Running off to write code again might be comfortable and familiar, but it doesn't make anything better.
Certainly in my case it was more risky. In that PayPal dont seem to be too keen on the business model of selling the types of products I created and the systems I chose to use to sell them..

It was more risky than say, getting a merchant account, explaining my business model, accepting the inevitable reserves and setting up my own affiliate program.

There seems to be a lot less chance of having your business forced to stop trading if you dont rely on selling WSOs.

I dont feel my products were low quality, misleading or hypey. I feel the problem lies in that with a PayPal account your business model is not scrutinzed until AFTER your account is flagged..by then its too late.

Yet with a merchant account, they wont allow you trade until AFTER they have assesed your business model and agreed they will work with you.
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Unread 16th April 2012, 07:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 07:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post
JVZoo and Digiresults are "Safer" for Affiliates than W+ for one reason - W+ rotates payments, which always makes the Affiliate the Primary Receiver for any sales they make. With Adaptive Payments, the Affiliate is NEVER the Primary Receiver, which significantly lowers the risk for them.
That's exactly why I've been planning on switching from W+ to JVZoo and Digi as an affiliate. Just to minimize risk as much as possible.

While I love the variety of offers at W+, unless they start using Adaptive Payments, I see it as high risk (not to mention customer service is a biznitch having to communicate with product vendor and customer at the same time, because you can't count on the vendors to be as good as you are at taking care of customers).

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Unread 16th April 2012, 08:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
Do you think that PayPal judge each WSO they investigate on its merits or do you think they tar everyone with the same brush?

Speaking from experience, when my account was limited and I called them. The person I spoke to on the phone was under the impression that I owned the Warrior Forum and would not accept anything else.

I know they have automated flags but it feels as though once it goes for manual review if they see a WSO thread they immediately put us all in the same category.

It seems to me that the main issue lies with PayPals acceptable products/services. They are not very clear. The best interpretation seems to be to avoid Internet Marketing information products entirely.

With that said, would it not be best if the WSO affiliate networks dont allow us to sell products that are against PayPals TOS?

I know its a business owners responsibility to make sure they are operating within their processors terms. But by the same token, Warrior+ wouldnt allow us to sell guns through their system, so why can we sell other products that PayPal dont allow?

I am just playing devil's advocate here...
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Unread 16th April 2012, 09:22 AM   #21
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post
It's worth noting that you're assuming merchant accounts will vet your business model once and leave you alone after approval but that's simply not the case.

Merchant account providers pay just as much attention to the clients they are handling transactions for as PayPal do because it's a legal requirement for them in most countries.

It's also heavily influenced by the insurance under writers who manage the risk of the companies, which will be the same regardless of whether you use PayPal or a merchant account.

As an example. When I set up DigiResults I had to prove to my bank that I wouldn't be dealing with various countries marked as risks by their insurance under writers. I did this by showing that I wouldn't be transacting directly but would be using PayPal to do it, who don't allow people from "risk" countries to have an account.

I'm not trying to make the point that PayPal are better, just that it's not a clear cut decision as this thread seems to be suggesting.
Yes, that is true that merchant banks do review accounts and usage. Their fraud and risk management systems monitor transactions outside the merchants pre-approved parameters.

That is why it is imperative to get bank approvals before you do business. That is the primary difference between merchant banking models and PayPal. You can sign up with PayPal instantly and find out later you're screwed when you want your money.

The other key factor is PayPal "keeps" your money for you. It's theirs, not yours, until they send it to you. As you know, the merchant banking model sends your money directly to your local bank account.

While it is true that a merchant bank can withdraw charge-backs from your bank account, at least you have the option to defend yourself first. Your risk is just the single payment in dispute. You don't get that "privilege" with PayPal. They can freeze your account first, seizing all your money, then ask you why they should give it back to you.

The best strategy to solve this entire payment problem is to segment the process. PayPal has bundled the entire processing infrastructure under their dominion. This gives them total control from alpha to omega. Yes, they are god in their universe.

To escape, we simply build our own alternative pipeline. I find it interesting that marketers who spend endless hours on writing html code, designing landing pages, crafting copy, and designing every aspect of conversion then spend so little time on protecting their money.

After laboring 5,000 hours to earn $5,000 dollars, why would you let some punk hold all your money and then you have to beg to get it back?

PayPal's business model is simply a protection racket. Their arrogance is galling. They can conduct their blackmail equally upon any intended or unintended victim of the day. They hold all the cards...and your money.

By segmenting the payment process, you can select the best desirable element for each part. This is just what you do with every other part of your business. You pick the software, solutions, and systems that best fit your business model. You can do the same for your payment pipeline.

When you market online, you can build and select the various components you want to use for your business style or buy into one of those so-called one-button millionaire models. The same exists in the payments sphere.

With a millionaire model, you are at the mercy and success of the guru's system. Yes it works for some. Others not so well. You're doing the same with PayPal. As long as you worship the king, he'll grant you favors.

For those that desire freedom as well as free enterprise, it may be well to develop your own escape tunnel if you ever need it or when the time is right.

I won't take the time to detail all the elements here, but suffice it to say that there are multiple options for better solutions. PayPal's dominance will not last forever. Many in the industry are gunning for a piece of the PayPal pie, myself included. The innovations being developed everyday rival the creativity and tenacity of many members of the WF.

PayPal has made a strategic decision to move into the mobile payments sphere. On March 15, they launched a pilot program with Home Depot to buy products with PayPal's mobile model. They've also penned an agreement in January with a payment provider for major retailers.

This is part of the process that reveals their move to retail as they limit their online payment risk, i.e. "high-risk" affiliate and "pyramid" marketing models. That is why we see them suddenly shutting down legitimate accounts with top-level affiliates.

Simply said, it doesn't matter how much volume you do with no problems. The more business you do the higher the risk. The processor holds the contractual liability under VISA/MC rules for charge-backs.

When you deconstruct the processing system, their are six to nine elements depending on how you bundle or unbundle. PayPal of course is not a bank, but is simply a money transfer and escrow operation. They could be classified as the actual merchant within the sector.

You can replicate the functions with your own elements. There is the consumer interface, secure gateway, networks, and pipeline to conduct the transaction through the banking network. We ride the rails of Visanet and FDN, and a few others when desired. PCI issues are better handled with tokenization and many new network options are moving here as well as mine.

Without writing a treatise here, let me jump to the merchant banking aspect. Some commentary has been made along this. Let me caution not to lump your experience in with what's actually available. Like any industry, this is an art as well as a science.

One bank, one processor, one underwriter does not an industry make. The benefit of merchant banking is there are as many options as there are merchant banks, and underwriters for that matter. I've been in the financial sector as well as marketing for almost three decades.

I can go to one bank and be laughed out of the office or another who welcomes me with open arms. It's all a matter of what and who you know. That may not be fair, but it is reality. I know who lies and who dies. Everyone talks a good game, but not everyone can deliver. Things change too. That's why you need to know where else you can go and what your options are.

That's why I was able to secure one unnamed super affiliate on this forum a $1.2 million annual pre-approved processing volume with up to $5,000 transactions through a major multi-national merchant bank with no financial records. I have my new favorite bank and underwriters.

Here's the best part. If he ever has a problem with this bank, I already secured a second merchant bank approval. That's another bank, not just another account.

Another WF member has been turned down three times. This was primarily due to his own careless mistakes and other financial issues, i.e. dozens of bad reviews online. But he is being approved today with one of my back-up merchant banking solutions. Nevertheless, we made the necessary risk and reputation management improvements to protect his business going forward.

Remember this. Unless you're an unmitigated crook, there are always options to plug in a different merchant bank approval on the back end of your personal payment pipeline. Do not confuse merchant banks with these online alternative payment providers. Most of these just work with one merchant bank or processor.

There are also options to reduce risk from charge-backs, high-volume product launches, "high-risk" business, and other challenges. Just like hosting companies create redundancy and routing alternatives you can do the same. Yes, you can work around bank-related risk issues too and well as get approvals even if you're on the do not process list.

The final issue that can bring down PayPal's dominance and house of cards is payment wallets. Right now, instant checkout is available with a few clicks on PayPal. We have EFT and echeck payments now, but payment wallets will soon replicate push-button checkout.

Would your hard-earned income and tireless labor deserve anything less than maximum protection?

Because every business model and owner are different, I have dozens of different back-end solutions and establish new banking and network relationships every week. We are launching our own three-tier payment system with flexible back-end merchant banking options.

A payment system can only be as good as the sum of it's parts. Innovation and access are key in the never ending quest for improvement. As fast as you can suck money into your marketing funnel, your system should be able to route it directly to your pocket as fast as possible. That includes avoiding bank risks too.

As Bill said, you can never be completely secure, but you can sure make the maximum effort to protect yourself and your hard-earned profits. Everyone is out to take them from you so fight back.

The best solution is your solution. Build what works for your business, volume, and protection. Don't leave your precious assets in the hand of a known abuser.
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Unread 16th April 2012, 02:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I read about halfway down the thread and I just wanted to point something out.

Yes it is true that JV Zoo offer better accountability through a clearer buyer audit trail but one thing that struck me as a potential hazzard is the fact that JV Zoo, by sending all payments through the vendor account actually can increase your activity by maybe 8 or 10 times the volume.

As an example, if you use the WSO Pro system, you get one payment every other turn, so one transaction for 2 sales (assuming that they were all affiliated).

Now put that to JV Zoo and all payments go to you first, (2 x) then the affiliate is paid for each transaction (another 2 payments), then JV Zoo take their commission back from you as the vendor (another 2x transactions) and if you have a JV partner, that's another 2 transactions per JV partner so a minimum of 4 transactions per sales which is 8-1 ratioo.

The reason I make this point is that if your account is quite new in paypal and you not only start getting rapid fire payments but also get 8 x the transactions in a short period, that will raise flags.

It is worth adding this fact to the equation.

Tony

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Unread 16th April 2012, 03:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Originally Posted by tonygrant View Post

As an example, if you use the WSO Pro system, you get one payment every other turn, so one transaction for 2 sales (assuming that they were all affiliated).

Now put that to JV Zoo and all payments go to you first, (2 x) then the affiliate is paid for each transaction (another 2 payments), then JV Zoo take their commission back from you as the vendor (another 2x transactions) and if you have a JV partner, that's another 2 transactions per JV partner so a minimum of 4 transactions per sales which is 8-1 ratioo.


That is transaction volume not payment volume. And Paypal allows that in adaptive payments (5 I think per transaction).

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Unread 16th April 2012, 04:16 PM   #24
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That's exactly why I've been planning on switching from W+ to JVZoo and Digi as an affiliate. Just to minimize risk as much as possible.

While I love the variety of offers at W+, unless they start using Adaptive Payments, I see it as high risk (not to mention customer service is a biznitch having to communicate with product vendor and customer at the same time, because you can't count on the vendors to be as good as you are at taking care of customers).
It's only a high risk if you promote high risk or crappy products.

I like the fact that a vendor does not have to deal with handling and splitting payments with the affiliate. Let them handle their own taxes. Let them work a little harder than just pushing an autoresponder button. To get a piece of your pie you created or designed and brought to the market.

Sure they spent sometime buidling a list, wow, that's not hard to do. A newbie can do that. Sure they may have a nice following of people, thats their job. If they want to be successful.

Affiliates are important but not absolutely needed, in all reality they are leaching off the vendor in the first place.

No vendor, No product..... No product to sell, No purpose for an affiliate.....

My point is that affiliates need vendors way more than vendors need affiliates. Without Vendors, there is no such thing as an affiliate....

A vendor can make it without affiliates but an affiliate cannot make it without vendors.

I guess if you have a crappy product then you do need people who have never bought it to promote it, so you get some transactions. But if you have a quality in demand product, it can stand on it's own.

Affiliates are just a nice addition and it should be viewed as a privilege but many affiliates expect you to kiss their arse, because they have a huge list.

My take is this, I will offer you whatever percentage I would like, if you do not like it, move on to someone else.

I had affiliates wanting like 75% and 90% commisions, I said move on.... Try getting Amazon to give you that or other major players.

Whoever came up with that ratio, had to have their screws loose, looking for fast money and not looking at the ripple effect it would have on affiliate marketing in this forum for the long run....

I'm sure I will get razzed for this post.

Just to clarify, I like affiliates, but I think they are too demanding....

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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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I'm sure I will get razzed for this post.
No, but I respectfully disagree with you.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Just switch to another payment processor. you can never satisfy paypal.

The problem with paypal is that even if you maintain their rules and the person making the purchase do some unusual activity they will suspend both the buyer and the seller's account.

use payment processors that accept both paypal/credit cards, so that you can finally withdraw your funds without any problemz

As for paypal, Everyone is complaining! TODAY OR TOMORROW
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Unread 16th April 2012, 05:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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A vendor can make it without his added sales force but an affiliate cannot make it without the entire world economy.
Fixed that for you. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your comparison, now.

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Unread 16th April 2012, 06:21 PM   #28
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wells
A vendor can make it without his added sales force but an affiliate cannot make it without the entire world economy.

Fixed that for you. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your comparison, now.
Nice fix.

By the way; I like the sig. file too.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 01:23 AM   #29
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Originally Posted by tonygrant View Post
I read about halfway down the thread and I just wanted to point something out.

Yes it is true that JV Zoo offer better accountability through a clearer buyer audit trail but one thing that struck me as a potential hazzard is the fact that JV Zoo, by sending all payments through the vendor account actually can increase your activity by maybe 8 or 10 times the volume.

As an example, if you use the WSO Pro system, you get one payment every other turn, so one transaction for 2 sales (assuming that they were all affiliated).

Now put that to JV Zoo and all payments go to you first, (2 x) then the affiliate is paid for each transaction (another 2 payments), then JV Zoo take their commission back from you as the vendor (another 2x transactions) and if you have a JV partner, that's another 2 transactions per JV partner so a minimum of 4 transactions per sales which is 8-1 ratioo.
^^ This point above bears repeating.

Each of the services such as Warrior Plus, JVZoo, etc have their own advantages and disadvantages. This is a perfect example. Yes, the adaptive payments means less risk for the affiliate but as noted above, it also means a much larger number of transactions are now going through the vendors account.

If I promote a product through Warrior Plus paying 50% commissions, only 1 in every 2 transactions is associated with my Paypal account. If I then use a setup like JVZoo, each and every single transaction is now associated with my Paypal account thus doubling the amount of volume through my account and making it much more likely I am on the Paypal radar. We know they have certain triggers in place for excessive volume in short periods of time and this would be one reason NOT to use adaptive payments.

So you see, although some things may seem better and less risky you need to actually stand back and take a good look before making any rash decisions.

I don't think it's the service provider that's the issue. I think those who have come under fire from Paypal have either done a large (abnormal) amount of volume in a short period of time, have been associated with products that have had a large number of refunds, chargebacks and complaints, and/or have been promoting a product that is against the terms set out in the user agreement.

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has been locked out of Paypal and has not done one of those 3 things.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 01:43 AM   #30
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Originally Posted by tonygrant View Post
I read about halfway down the thread and I just wanted to point something out.

Yes it is true that JV Zoo offer better accountability through a clearer buyer audit trail but one thing that struck me as a potential hazzard is the fact that JV Zoo, by sending all payments through the vendor account actually can increase your activity by maybe 8 or 10 times the volume.

As an example, if you use the WSO Pro system, you get one payment every other turn, so one transaction for 2 sales (assuming that they were all affiliated).

Now put that to JV Zoo and all payments go to you first, (2 x) then the affiliate is paid for each transaction (another 2 payments), then JV Zoo take their commission back from you as the vendor (another 2x transactions) and if you have a JV partner, that's another 2 transactions per JV partner so a minimum of 4 transactions per sales which is 8-1 ratioo.

The reason I make this point is that if your account is quite new in paypal and you not only start getting rapid fire payments but also get 8 x the transactions in a short period, that will raise flags.

It is worth adding this fact to the equation.

Tony
Tony,

Actually, it's a 2:1 ratio on Receiver Transactions, which are different than Sender (buyer) transactions (that represent the makeup of the "Split").

Additionally, all Adaptive Payment transactions include a cross-transaction "Pay Key", which identify them as PayPal originated transactions.

The reason that's important is because the receiver isn't doing a high volume of transactions and simply withdrawing the balance, which potentially triggers a number of anti-fraud filters, one of which is money laundering.

Instead, Adaptive Payments internally relates multiple 3rd-party accounts, adding a degree of credibility to the Primary Receiver's account. By credibility in this case, I mean that a reasonable percentage of inbound funds are disbursed to PayPal account holders in good standing.

While I do agree that any new account is always at some risk, the PayPal Anti-Fraud filters that apply here are based specifically on receiver transactions.
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Unread 17th April 2012, 02:05 AM   #31
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Do you think that PayPal judge each WSO they investigate on its merits or do you think they tar everyone with the same brush?
Absolutely, they treat people differently. They love us here at DigiResults.

I've personally sold well over a million dollars of product through DigiResults and PayPal and never had a problem.

I've got multiple six figure products, at least one of which hit over six figures during the launch alone.

I've got a subscription product that has sold around a quarter of a million dollars of volume and grows every month.

And I've never had an issue with PayPal.

Once we started putting decent volume through they gave me a call to find out more about who I am and what I do then assigned me an account manager who I can call at any time.

I know this post already reads like a massive boast but I have to say I don't think most people that are complaining about "high transaction volumes" really know what that looks like. For all of the stuff I outlined above I'm still freakin' tiny on PayPal's radar.

All they care about is that I've never created any issues for them.

- I have an incorporated company with all documents filed with them
- I make sure to set the amounts I'm expecting to receive properly in their interface (one of the main fraud triggers they use)
- I hold a hefty balance to make sure they can never be put at risk by my actions
- I deal with all disputes and chargebacks ASAP and always close them in favour of the buyer giving a full refund
- I have filed documents with them with personal details of myself and all staff that have access to the account for whatever reasons

Bottom line, I go out of my way to make their life easier.

Every I've ever had this conversation with always says, "That's not how it's supposed to work, I'm the customer, they should make my life easier." Well sorry, that's not how this game works. They have what we want so we play the game by their rules.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 03:54 AM   #32
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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accept the fact that the business model of launching and promoting WSOs is too risky to be the only source of income.
I have been pounding on this issue for years...

Nothing is safe or smart as your only source of income!


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Unread 17th April 2012, 05:41 AM   #33
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I wanted to thank Derrick (Centurian), Big Mike and Andy Fletcher for their contributions to this thread. They have almost single-handedly made this thread worth reading.

Of course, I don't have any Thanks buttons left today, so my sincere "Thank You" here will have to do for now.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 05:45 AM   #34
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Every I've ever had this conversation with always says, "That's not how it's supposed to work, I'm the customer, they should make my life easier."
I just wanted to wave a hand here and point out that most people don't understand the difference between being a customer and being a consumer.

The word "customer" comes from the word "custom." Custom is in this sense another word for "currency" - the customary means of payment for goods and services.

You are not a company's customer unless and until you are paying them.

If a company is providing you a service, then you are a consumer. You consume the service. When you search Google or Bing, you are their consumer, not their customer. The customers are all the advertisers displaying ads on the search results.

Companies often accept consumers to attract customers.

This is the basic business model of every "free" service that has a hope in hell of being profitable.

But the fact remains: a consumer is a liability, and a customer is an asset.

And there is an ROI.

There is an amount of money your customers pay you. Call it $1,000.

And there is an amount of money your consumers cost you. Call it $400.

There has to be profit, or you won't survive. See? So the net value of your consumers is $600, because that's what's left when you take what your customers pay you and use it to pay what your consumers cost.

Now, let's imagine that you have a hundred consumers.

Each of those consumers is worth $6.

Now, it gets more complicated than this, because you have to consider word of mouth effects and the lemming effect and the bandwagon effect and all that. But let's pretend we don't have to consider all those, or that we did and it nets out to nothing so the consumers are still worth an average of $6.

If you as a consumer demand more than $6 worth of additional service, then you are reducing the bottom line and should be eliminated.

So do like Andy. Make their lives easier, so they spend less time talking to you, and less time looking at you, and therefore are not paying anyone to do it. The less you cost them, and the more you make them, and the smaller the associated risks of your activity - the more they will like you.

This is not rocket surgery. It is basically ECON 101.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 07:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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I know this post already reads like a massive boast but I have to say I don't think most people that are complaining about "high transaction volumes" really know what that looks like. For all of the stuff I outlined above I'm still freakin' tiny on PayPal's radar.
You need to remember it's all relative. If you have an old Paypal account that has been doing a consistent volume of only $1,000 month and the next month you do $10,000 in only a few days, you are going to trigger the same fraud filters as someone who has been doing $10,000 month and does a big launch of $100,000. It's not so much the amount of money that is important here -- it's the amount of money relative to the amount of money your account has been doing before.

Yes, when you have a big spike in sales it is not a guarantee your account gets shut down but it is almost certainly a guarantee you will attract attention and possibly a manual review of your account. This can then lead to them finding one little thing they don't like and thus limiting your account -- but without that manual review they may never have seen that one thing they don't like -- it could be as simple as the type of product you are selling.

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Unread 17th April 2012, 01:15 PM   #36
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Fixed that for you. Perhaps you can see the flaw in your comparison, now.
Not flawed at all.

A Vendor doe not have to have an ADDED sales force. It is not required, nor is it mandatory, and many products survive and do well with out affiliates.

Are affiliates a great addition? Sure they can be. But they do not deserve the amounts of commissions they are demanding. 50% should be highly acceptable. And they should be thankful.

Imagine Amazon, or any major player giving it's affiliates 50% commissions. I think that would be very, very, very rare to see. If ever seen.

An affiliate has nothing to promote, if there were no vendors. Entire world economy included.

You cannot deny the logic, of No Vendor = No Product = No Product for Affiliate to sell = No Affiliate.........

Meaning the Vendor is the one in control, and should be setting the standards not the other way around.

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Unread 28th April 2012, 11:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I disagree!! I have products Affiliates promote and I promote for people. Its hard to compare Amazon to clickbank, clickshare, etc.... Downloadable products in which a Seller has minimal cost...Im happy to pay 50% or more.. If its a physical product it's different, they have a lower margin to work with... Affiliates are a crucial part of a business.. Where the hell else you going to find someone to spend their cash on advertising, etc.. and there time with no guarantee of any payment..

Your Logic is Flawed.. Let Google, Facebook, etc stop taking affiliates money for ads and see what happens to revenue.!! Let's see how Amazon would do if they cut out their Affiliate program........Hmmmmmmmm

Simple Math is as a Vendor I would rather have 50% of 100 sales than 100% of 5 sales..
A good vendor will look out for his affiliates...
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Unread 4th May 2012, 02:44 PM   #38
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Well since I don't see anyone else discussing this, I am going to offer a warning to any vendors/merchants that plan on using any system offering Paypal Adaptive payments (or split commissions as it's come to be known).

Scammers are targeting split commission systems and exploiting the split commissions which can cause vendors not only to lose hundreds or even thousands, but also have their accounts limited or frozen by Paypal as a result of not only excessive refunds, but because of suspicious or fraudulent activity all caused by this "scam".

Here's how the scam works. The scammers signup as affiliates for a vendors product. In many cases they sign up with multiple accounts. They will often use fake IPs and create their email accounts to appear to be U.S., Canada or U.K. based. Once they are approved to promote a given vendors products they quickly jump into action and make purchases via their affiliate link with hacked paypal accounts or credit cards. Once they've hit their "target" amount (which usually happens very quickly) they simply terminate the association between their Paypal account and the site offering the split pay system.

Thus, in a few days, the "unauthorized use" claims start to pour in and in case of credit cards, chargebacks pile up. In normal cases, when you refund a payment, the association of their Paypal account would allow for you to also recover the commission paid to the affiliate. However, these scammers have already cancelled this association so you wind up refunding the unwitting customer the full purchase price, but LOSE the commission already paid to the affiliate forever.

But on Paypal's end, they see a flury of unauthorized account uses and chargebacks and suddenly your account is limited for suspicious activity and the subsequent high number of refunds associated with the Inquiries. What's worse is it happened because of Paypal's own API that they in fact endorse as being "safer"!

This is not speculation. It's happened to me personally and to others that I know. In my case my account was in good standing for over 12 years and not until I chose to sell via the split pay system and get scammed in this manner was there ever a problem. Luckily in my case I was able to show the relationship between the spilt pay purchases and the unauthorized uses and was restored.

Conceivably, this is why some have incorporated delayed payment to affiliate schemes etc. However, when you have to start screening each and every affiliate and then manage delayed payments over several weeks etc, the "wait your turn" system such as Warrior Plus' original system and RAP type scripts starts to look more and more appealing. In the end it seems more secure as well as it's kind of tough to scam this way when some of the purchases made would be directly through their own account and thus put them at the same risk.

I see that Warrior Plus is now offering the split payment option I but don't think that $3.99 per account is going to deter scammers from signing up as affiliates when their "take" could be hundreds per account before any knows what's hit them.

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Unread 14th June 2012, 01:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

I'm experiencing that issue right now. It's not much fun.

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Unread 14th June 2012, 02:05 AM   #40
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

When its working smoothly paypal is like butter... but when something happens. oh geez so many headaches!

But I still prefer paypal as it is the easiest and most common way that I get paid.

Tried out alertpay / payza... even more unsatisfied...
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Unread 14th June 2012, 05:36 AM   #41
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1shotoffers View Post
Scammers are targeting split commission systems and exploiting the split commissions which can cause vendors not only to lose hundreds or even thousands, but also have their accounts limited or frozen by Paypal
Scammers are NOT targeting Split Commission Systems - they're targeting sellers who blindly approve affiliate applications without making any reasonable effort to vet them.

Let's be honest here - using Split Commissions has NEVER been a problem...it's always been the seller who screwed up.

Why on earth anyone would arbitrarily approve an unknown person as an affiliate is mind boggling.
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Unread 14th June 2012, 06:20 AM   #42
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

This is very interesting thread, i remembered i also asked the same question regarding paypal as payment processing on another forum. I also looking for answers for this problem, how paypal ban system works. I noticed many big players can also get this issue but on the other side there are many others also who seems on the safe zone.

Do you ever notice why some big gurus or product seller seems don't have this issue? example like Market Samurai, they still use paypal till now and already have more than 400,000 users, no problems till now.

Until this can be solved, i decided to use other payment system such as 2checkout, i know it still not safe but at least it doesn't have many horror stories like paypal. As for affiliates my choice is using clickbank, i can receive payment safe using check and my affiliates still paid by clickbank, win-win solution at least for me.

Maybe some big wso sellers can shed some light here? )

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Unread 14th June 2012, 06:49 AM   #43
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

You know Mike,

You'd think that any one who's serious about their business would be selective in how they vet and approve affiliates, right? Well not in most cases and I personally think its because of the greed factor and plain stupidity.

I don't really bother with affiliates because they think for some reason they are entitled 50% commissions. Who's allowed this to happen? Product creators who don't really know much about real business in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post
Why on earth anyone would arbitrarily approve an unknown person as an affiliate is mind boggling.

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Unread 14th June 2012, 07:50 AM   #44
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

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Originally Posted by linkwhizz View Post
Ah..so the adapative payments system isn't bullet proof..

Im starting to think that WSOs in general are not a safe business model
Why not consider using Clickbank for your WSOs? Sure it might take a week or so for them to approve everthing but once your good to go you know you're safe.

I know John Thornhill and Omar Martin have used Clickbank for their latest launches here. Might be something to look into:rolleyes:

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Unread 15th June 2012, 02:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: PayPal Issues - Warrior+, JVZoo & DigiResults

Paypal Sucks Period. You should go to 2CO if you want to pull big volume and safely too. Paypal is just moronic.
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