A question coming from a world of hurt

53 replies
I am a regular reader of the WF and I have been in IM now for over 2 years, very diligently working, posting and taking coaching from the most reputable teachers available. First, I apologize if this post is a wet blanket, but I really need to do some hard thinking here. About my work, I do no black or gray hat, all my content is hand written original work. I use MNF for keyword research, and I publish articles on all the large directories. I create linkwheels and have many Web 2.0 sites where I post and link back to my original sites. I have to date over 20 sites online, many of them 2 years old, and the older sites have at least 25 original articles, with internal linking, and outbound links. Occasionally I will do a mass publishing of a very carefully spun and meticulously checked original article, using the Best Spinner, and Article Marketing Robot. And a few times I have used Backlink Energizer and the setchronjob site to drip backlinks. The most traffic I get is on a few of the older sites, about 250 visitors a month. Most hover at less than 100. I have many, many keywords on page one, some are even number 1.

Every single one of my sites is a complete failure. In 2 years I have cleared about $160. If I had been paid to study and learn all these complex SEO techniques, I would be rich. I have begun to believe this is all a pipe dream. I hear stories about people getting good incomes, but I have never personally met anyone who has succeeded in internet marketing. Everyone I know personally who is doing this, is going through the same thing. All I see are pictures on a screen to prove that it is possible. I simply do not know what to think, or what to do. I am totally discouraged. Does anyone have anything to offer to help me sort this out?

I am at the end of my rope. I wonder if it is possible that my sites are being blocked.
#coming #failure #hurt #internet marketing #question #world
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Sorry to hear about your disillusionment, Carolyn.

    I'll reply at greater length, later on today, when I have more time. (Unless others reply in-between and say everything I wanted to say!). For now, may I ask one question (because almost everything else I can say may depend on the answer to it): are you trying to to sell products as an affiliate without building email lists? :confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author SandyDuPlessis
      Hi Carolyn,

      Please don't get discouraged. I have been where you are and it has taken me a lot longer than you to get things moving.

      One thing that I have discovered is that you stand far more chance of earning a good income when you provide a service to other IMers.

      Another is when you sell good solid information products (preferably something you have written or developed yourself) to those who are in "pain" about something, be it a parent with a special needs child; someone who is desperate to lose weight; or a person who avidly collects information on his or her favorite sport or hobby i.e. golfing, gardening etc.

      I must say I am also looking forward to reading what Alexa has to say.
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  • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
    Hi Alexa, thank you, Yes I am building a list on all my sites. I have very nice giveaways in exchange for optins, but the traffic is so dismal that my largest list is about 45 people on a site that is 2 years old. I create a series of helpful, info rich followup emails, between 15 and 20 emails, with only about 5-10% of them having a sales pitch in them. This is how I was taught by the coaches I have followed...all of them highly respected.
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    • Profile picture of the author alphadude
      I guessing you are getting at least 2,000 visitors a months. Really you could be earning at least $100 a month with that kind of traffic. I'd say a problem of monetising the traffic.
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      • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
        Originally Posted by alphadude View Post

        I guessing you are getting at least 2,000 visitors a months. Really you could be earning at least $100 a month with that kind of traffic. I'd say a problem of monetising the traffic.
        I have never received more than around 200, not 2000, visitors per month, per Google Analytics. As for monetizing, all I know how to do is what I have been taught, and it is not working. I am of course always ready to hear what I am doing wrong and what others do that works. I am not married to any of my techniques, rather to getting an income. So I welcome any thoughts.
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  • Profile picture of the author loi77
    I have many, many keywords on page one, some are even number 1.
    Are you sure the keywords that you are targeting are "buyers" keyword with high search volume?

    What about your niche, is it profitable?
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Originally Posted by loi77 View Post

      Are you sure the keywords that you are targeting are "buyers" keyword with high search volume?

      What about your niche, is it profitable?
      Yes, high search volume. low to medium competition, using MNF. Exactly whether they are buyers keywords...at this point I would have to say no because of the results. Yet the process I used to get them seemed like they were.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oliver Williams
    Just to make sure I have to question what are the niches that you are in? Are they high need? How are you offering your give away to get your opt ins? Are you using a pop up or a video? Finally, maybe your main challenge lies in ranking with google if you sites are 2 years old are you getting top positions? Are your keywords in reasonable demand?

    If you show me one of your sites I might be able to help
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Originally Posted by Oliver Williams View Post

      Just to make sure I have to question what are the niches that you are in? Are they high need? How are you offering your give away to get your opt ins? Are you using a pop up or a video? Finally, maybe your main challenge lies in ranking with google if you sites are 2 years old are you getting top positions? Are your keywords in reasonable demand?

      If you show me one of your sites I might be able to help
      Hi Oliver, I am happy to respond to your inquiry. I am just about to leave, so I will get back to this later. Thank you.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianDowns
    I've done tons of SEO in the past, got sites on page one for opportunities, things going well, getting traffic, making sales --- and wham!!

    Google moves my site off of page one and the traffic ends.

    I don't understand why, perhaps my back linking.

    But it forced me to do one thing that I never thought I'd do. -Paid advertising.

    Now I can finally control my own destiny without worrying about the little whiners over at google and I can make my fortune my way.

    My suggestion is to study direct response marketing from guys like Dan Kennedy and the like.

    Find a way to advertise and just pay for it. You will make it back...

    Put it this way... All the money you have invested in the products that promise riches, you could just spend in advertising and get some real traffic...

    Check out my latest post on CPV advertising.. I got over 6,000 visitors to my site for only $100... built a list and made sales for profits..

    And it was instantaneous. No waiting around for indexing. And I built my page for the buyer, not the search engine.

    Hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    Watch for Alexas answer!

    In the meanwhile I have a few questions for you to think about.
    • How do you define "Highly respected" in terms of your "coaches"?
    • How are you trying to attract high quality traffic? (Other than google!)
    • How are you building your reputation?
    • What is on your website that would make a visitor say to themselves "This person seems to know what they are talking about, and they seem interesting - wow I must make sure I get their newsletter, and bookmark their site"
    • Why are you email sequences so short?
    • Are you emails doing anything other than dumping info - for example relationship building and preselling?


    I see a lot about how you have tried to trick or game Google to give you high rankings. I also see you have the basics of a list. But the important stuff seems to be missing ,
    1. finding ways to attract people (as opposed to search spiders)
    2. making your site attractive so they want to come back - and/or get your newsletter.
    3. Building a relationship with your visitors and/or subscribers.

    You look to have a very "mechanistic" approach - focusing on processes and numbers - rather than on people. People will be buying from you - not search engine spiders.

    Look at your site from a visitors point of view - are you signing up for the newsletter or reaching for your credit card?

    Hope that helps
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    I like to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out

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    • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
      That's a very good response Nicola.

      Carolyn, I too was more than a little concerned about the promotion methods outlined in your original post. You concluded that you has done nothing black hat or gray hat, yet you mentioned creating link wheels and some article spinning. Both of these procedures have been frowned upon by Google for about as long as you say you've been developing your websites.

      I would also suggest that you move away from trying so hard to please Google (as indicated by your mention of linkwheels and article spinning). If you are a half-way decent writer, forget 'article directory marketing' and concentrate on 'article marketing' - an entirely different animal.

      Rather than launch into yet another article marketing tutorial, just do a search on posts supplied by experts such as: Alexa Smith, Bill Platt, Celent, Joe Robinson, John Coutts, John McCabe, Mike Tucker, MYOB, Nicola Lane, Paul Myers, Richard Van, and TiffLee. All are true experts.

      You also mention that your older websites (two years), have at least 25 original articles in place. 25 articles added over a two year period is really not enough. It represents approximately just one piece of content per month.

      You say you now have 20 sites online, but from my own perspective, I would have a terrible job producing sufficient content to keep 20 web sites current and worth re-visiting.

      It would seem that none of your sites actually offer enough in depth content. After two years, I would expect more information than 25 articles on a website.

      You should also maybe mix your content: create some videos (there's free software you can use to create them), review some of the products you're attempting to sell, with an audio of you discussing a few points, graphics, and a comparison chart. Provide a survey, the feedback will give you ideas for further content.

      Along with Nicola, I'm wondering who you consider to be the most reputable teachers available. Sometimes, opinions on these are varied at best. Also, how old is their advice? Methods that worked just a couple of years ago, are now completely outdated.

      As some others have already pointed out, it may be that you're focusing too much on keywords. Is this making your content too mechanical and not reader friendly?

      I hardly bother with keywords when I write. I may include a 'long tail' in the first sentence and again in the last paragraph, but I've always preferred to let my writing itself do the work.

      Don't forget, Google indexes your entire content, so everything you write can be construed as 'keywords'. Concentrate more upon writing engaging, conversational content and let your keywords fall as they may. Sometimes be funny or controversial. In short, write for your readers not for the search engines.

      Remember the 5 'Es' when writing for your audience: Enthusiasm, Education, Enlightenment, Engagement and Entertainment. Presell, never position yourself as a sales-person.



      Anne
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    I'm 100% with Nicola on this one.

    Way to mechanical of an approach in my opinion.

    Rather then focus on keywords, automation, etc. I'd focus on creating killer content, value and networking with people in the niche. Engage with them through social media and leverage any channel you can to reach out to that market and build brand or micro-brand awareness.

    My advice assuming you want to still focus on website is to focus on just 1 site. Pick something you have a real interest in and build and promote the hell out of as and become a trusted advisor to that audience.

    P.S. I'm not saying to ignore keywords or automated tools, but don't use them as your driving force.

    Much love, health, wealth & prosperity,
    Daniel.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    Here's a link to really good video on a blogging business model you might find easy to do and profitable.

    This blog generated over 1 million dollars starting from scratch in 18 months in a non major niche.

    How we made $1 million in 18 months from a simple niche blog. | Mindvalley Insights for Online Marketing Techniques

    Hope it helps!

    Much love, health, wealth & prosperity,
    Daniel. .
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    Perhaps twenty sites are too many to promote properly. I would suggest picking your top two or three and putting all your efforts into those. Then, as already suggested, write more content, post some videos, and consider at least trying some paid ads.

    Good luck! Rose
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  • Profile picture of the author lukedidit
    Sorry to hear about that and I know how you feel.

    The fact is, its only a small amount of people who will break through at this game to the point where they can support themselves, and a lot of those who fail hit the same realization as Sandy's post "One thing that I have discovered is that you stand far more chance of earning a good income when you provide a service to other IMers."

    I really believe the secret to any pursuit is that it should be something that you fundamentally enjoy and have passion for. That way if you make money, then bingo! You really have struck gold! If you don't, meh! who cares, your doing what you are passionate about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Apologies for my "cryptic post" earlier today. I was busy doing three other things at the same time but just wanted to ask if you were trying to make affiliate sales without list-building, that being such a common cause of the "hurt" you describe.

    Anyway, I'm pleased that wasn't the problem.

    I find myself with nothing "certain" to say, of course. Especially after Nicola's and Anne's excellent posts above, because there's a limit to how much anyone can add to those.

    Two preliminary comments ...

    (i) Nobody can know what's going wrong, without more or less seeing everything you've ever done (obviously not too practicable); we can only guess, and ...

    (ii) You describe a heavily Google-dependent business model, which is not entirely within my own experience (and which I don't think is well-advised, myself). SEO traffic isn't very good traffic, compared with other kinds. And as so many Warriors have been discovering over the last year or two, sometimes to their great cost, a business which depends on Google for its primary traffic is only ever going to be one algorithm-change away from an accident anyway - it's not a business of which one's really in control, for the long term. And it must be said that, by your own account, you may well have done rather a lot of things that "Google doesn't like".

    I'm kind of "walking on eggshells" here, because you're writing from a place of "hurt", in your own words, and I completely understand why, of course ... and I want to try to offer helpful observations (if I can!) without worsening that or upsetting you further.

    May I throw out some general observations/thoughts/questions, and some links to other posts, some of which might help?

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    I publish articles on all the large directories.
    Why is that?

    All the successful Warriors here who are using article marketing, I think, are not doing that. There's no real benefit from multiple directory submissions. Ok, a couple of directories may be better than one. Three, if you really like submitting to directories. But why "all the large directories"? When people say this, I can't help wondering whether what they're actually doing is trying to use article directories either for their own backlinks, or for their own traffic? Both bad ideas. Explained in posts #2 and #6 of this thread: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post5068872

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    I create linkwheels
    This, I must say, I don't think is a good plan at all, especially at the moment (though I've been saying it for a couple of years). I've always thought that "link wheels" are a particularly bad way of trying to do off-page SEO. At best, Google will ignore them and you'll get no real benefits. All they are is a way of trying to "game the system".

    My comments on linkwheels (comments made before the effects of the latest Google update reinforced and magnified them, so they read as somewhat "understated" now) are here: Building Link Wheel?

    These posts may help/interest you ...

    Sites with spammy backlinks

    Backlinks After Google Update

    It's terribly easy to get into trouble at the moment, from "unnatural backlinks", as you can see in the many recent threads like this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one, this one and many others.

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    and have many Web 2.0 sites where I post and link back to my original sites.
    Mmmmmmm ...

    Many of us stopped using those sites for backlinking purposes a couple of years ago. I don't suggest there's a great downside to this, but I do think it has no benefits which you can't get in other, safer, better ways.

    Using Hubpages, Squidoo, and Tumblr to generate backlinks

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    I have to date over 20 sites online, many of them 2 years old
    Wow - that's a lot of websites for 2 years. Why/how so many?!

    I can't help instinctively wondering, exactly as Rose suggests above, whether you might be much better off with 2 than with 20?

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    Occasionally I will do a mass publishing of a very carefully spun and meticulously checked original article, using the Best Spinner, and Article Marketing Robot.
    Ok, here I can speak with a little more certainly. This is definitely a bad idea. The "spinning" part of it is entirely unnecessary and gains nothing, and the backlinks are far more likely to do harm than good, I'm afraid.

    (Re spinning, if it helps, I can offer six(!) things to read, which offer insights: (i) This post explains the benefits of spinning; (ii) This post, and its links, explain how article directories really work and why they exist; (iii) The first half (or so) of this thread contains a good discussion of what you can gain from spinning articles; (iv) The advice on this subject given by so many people throughout most of this thread has been really helpful to many people here; (v) On the meaning and significance of "duplicate content", in this context, this little post from expert article marketer Anne Pottinger includes direct quotations from Google's WebMaster Central Blog on the subject (not easy to find a more authoritative source than that!); (vi) This little article is also a very useful and accurate explanation of the subject.).

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    The most traffic I get is on a few of the older sites, about 250 visitors a month. Most hover at less than 100. I have many, many keywords on page one, some are even number 1.
    Well, I can only add my suspicions to those expressed in some posts above that these may be bad keywords.

    Overall, I think you've been building a Google-dependent business model which isn't producing enough visitors, and/or your sites aren't producing enough opt-ins, and/or they're not turning into customers.

    I can't prove any of this, of course, but I strongly suspect you've been faithfully following some bad teaching, I'm sorry to say. I can't avoid suggesting that some of your efforts may be a little misdirected.

    If it might help you at all, I'd be very happy to look at a few of your sites and offer better, more informed, suggestions, especially if I can find anything to suggest that really might help. I appreciate most people don't want to list their sites in public (I wouldn't, and don't, either), but you're very welcome to try me by private message and I'll happily look and "report back" if I can help at all, naturally in complete confidence.

    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    I have never personally met anyone who has succeeded in internet marketing.
    I promise there are many of us here, who are doing so. And people are willing to try to help, if we can.

    If it helps you to see a sort of "model for using articles to attract floods of traffic", this post explains what I'm doing, each day, with an article written for the purpose, and where all the traffic comes from ...
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    • Profile picture of the author Formal Shorts
      Carolyn I can't offer you any help except to say that you have received some fantastic responses here, and I would urge you to listen to the advice posted.

      As an aside, you seem like a genuine, likeable person and I wish you all the best
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      • Profile picture of the author AnniePot
        Carolyn
        As Alexa has suggested - if you would also like to PM me the URLs of some of your websites, maybe the oldest few, I'd also be very happy to take a look and see if there's any way I can advise you. In complete confidence, of course.

        Anne
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Wow, I am overwhelmed by the quality of responses I am getting. Thank you all so much. Let me reply by answering Alexa's post.



      [quote=Alexa Smith;6236791]

      Wow - that's a lot of websites for 2 years. Why/how so many?!

      I can't help instinctively wondering, exactly as Rose suggests above, whether you might be much better off with 2 than with 20?
      I inherited 10 of these. I started out in MLSP, but then I moved to Romania and due to language and cultural differences, it quickly became evident that network marketing was not a viable path for a foreigner. But a person in my MSLP mastermind group, an Englishman living in Turkey, offered me 10 sites he had gotten from a $3000 program he did not have the skills to develop, and I since know this program and these sites were a mess, but did not at the time. He offered me a split on profits, so I accepted, went through the very, very extensive video training accompanying these ready made niches, and set them up. I do not regret this because I really learned a lot of valuable skills. However, I did come to understand his methods were undeniably spammy, so I set out to find better coaching. But I wanted to keep trying to salvage the sites. So much money and time had been invested. The other sites I set up trying out other different methods, as a hopeful test.

      Two preliminary comments ...

      (ii) You describe a heavily Google-dependent business model, which is not entirely within my own experience (and which I don't think is well-advised, myself). SEO traffic isn't very good traffic.
      This I know, but at present, I feel paralyzed to move forward, because I am not sure how to get information that is any good for changing my tactics. The three people I follow, or followed, I researched heavily here, and on the net, as to their reputations and reviews, and that is how I chose them as coaches. But they also led me down this path I am on now, and I trusted them. I am not smart enough about this business yet to be able to strike out on my own without some feedback from others about what works. And these 3 coaches promised what they do works, and apparently have the reputations to validate that. Yet here I am at the end of my rope. It would be rude of me to mention names, or blame them, so I will not say who they are, only they all consistently sit at the top of IM Report Card ratings, for years.


      I'm kind of "walking on eggshells" here, because you're writing from a place of "hurt", in your own words, and I completely understand why, of course ... and I want to try to offer helpful observations (if I can!) without worsening that or upsetting you further.
      What is upsetting me is finding out I am still a gullible newbie, and all my hard work has been wasted. The hurt is from the anguish of failure, the unrelieved finance stres I hoped to remedy, and that the system itself appears to be a failure. All of us here are serious about income. As so many of us who come to IM, I am struggling to support a family, without any alternatives but IM, because I am retired and out of the workforce....that is the hurt. You will not hurt my feelings. I have embarrassed myself already.

      May I throw out some general observations/thoughts/questions, and some links to other posts, some of which might help?
      Absolutely!

      All the successful Warriors here who are using article marketing, I think, are not doing that. There's no real benefit from multiple directory submissions. Ok, a couple of directories may be better than one. Three, if you really like submitting to directories. But why "all the large directories"?
      When I say large directories, I mean the top few, Ezines, Go, ArticlesBase, Sooperarticles, and ArticlesDashboard. I was taught in no uncertan terms to do this, to post an original article on my site, then another article on a directory, with a signature box linking back to the original. All the article directories I use accept my articles.

      I've always thought that "link wheels" are a particularly bad way of trying to do off-page SEO. At best, Google will ignore them and you'll get no real benefits. All they are is a way of trying to "game the system".
      Again, I was taught specifically to do this, by my favorite coach's star student, who is reported to have made over a million in the last couple of years using these techniques. The coach presented him to us as someone to follow, so I trusted it. I have tried 3 so far, for 3 different sites, creating very well stocked little blogs on 5 Web 2.0 sites, using unique articles for them, then linking them to each other and then back to a unique article on the original site.


      It's terribly easy to get into trouble at the moment, from "unnatural backlinks", as you can see in the many recent threads
      Which is exactly why I have suspended all my work, and came here with my problem.

      Well, I can only add my suspicions to those expressed in some posts above that these may be bad keywords.
      For the 10 sites I "inherited," I agree, bad keywords, stale at best. But I do use MicronicheFinder and Google Keyword Tool, best as I know how to do, to choose new keywords.

      Overall, I think you've been building a Google-dependent business model which isn't producing enough visitors,
      I am more than receptive to learn how to get away from Google and start getting happy traffic that converts, but I really have no clue where to turn to learn from anyone who is trustworthy.

      I can't prove any of this, of course, but I strongly suspect you've been faithfully following some bad teaching, I'm sorry to say. I can't avoid suggesting that some of your efforts may be a little misdirected.
      Naturally, without shoveling blame, I would find comfort in thinking that too. I have faithfully followed instructions, while at the same time researching all I could to find those who knew more and better, and were forthcoming. I beleived that following the instructions so as to duplicate the success of others was the safest, fastest way to go. That has certainly, at least in my case, proven wrong.
      If it might help you at all, I'd be very happy to look at a few of your sites and offer better, more informed, suggestions, especially if I can find anything to suggest that really might help. I appreciate most people don't want to list their sites in public (I wouldn't, and don't, either), but you're very welcome to try me by private message and I'll happily look and "report back" if I can help at all, naturally in complete confidence.
      I will certainly accept your most generous offer. You are so very kind to do this. I know to continue with the methods I use now would be wasted, even harmful, effort. I will PM you.


      I promise there are many of us here, who are doing so. And people are willing to try to help, if we can.
      Knowing this is what allowed me to salvage a shred of hope and determination, and get a little sleep last night.

      If it helps you to see a sort of "model for using articles to attract floods of traffic", this post explains what I'm doing, each day, with an article written for the purpose, and where all the traffic comes from ...
      I am on it! Thank you Alexa and everyone. Onward through the fog!
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  • Profile picture of the author alfid
    If you have been working that long and hard and cleared less than $200, I'd have to say maybe internet marketing just isn't for you! That may not be what you want to hear, but it seems true.
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  • Profile picture of the author Quincy
    Hey Carolyn,

    Hang in there. You've got 2+ years experience under your belt and maybe a lot closer to making good money than you think.

    Do you think your low earnings are due primarily to poor niche selection, bad keyword choice, low traffic, low conversions, or something else?

    Try to give us a little more info so we can try to help you out. Can ya ear that bugle playing. That's the calvary coming over the hill...

    No, they're not playing taps :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Quincy and everyone, thank you so much. I have been a weepy mess for days over this and I am so glad I decided to swallow my pride and come and ask for help.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    I agree with some of the advice given to you. It seems to me that you have your focus split far too wide for you to be able to manage properly. If you had 2-3 sites and you concentrated on those, I am sure you will be able to do far better.

    However, someone also asked the hard question... is internet marketing for you?

    There are lots of other ways to make money from home that are not directly classified as internet marketing.

    Feel free to pm me and I can give you some pointers in that respect if you wish.
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    Cheers, Laurence.
    Writer/Editor/Proofreader.

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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Davis
    I will say my biggest mistake to date was splitting my energies across several websites at the beginning, instead of loving and nurturing one into full maturity and fruition.

    Seems like you've gotten some great advice here, but the one thing I will also offer is - the next time you're tempted to spend some money on the next great guru's model or method, that money perhaps would serve better as a test campaign via paid advertising (as Brian said.)

    Best of luck to you, and remember a quote attributed to Edison along the lines of "I did not fail, I've just found 1,000 ways that didn't work."

    Mindset is key -- are you seeing forward progress? Are you taking note of what IS working, along with what isn't? Are you documenting the processes and systems that ARE working for you?

    Success is a journey paved a step forward at a time. Do not give up -- those that persevere are the "overnight" success stories that were 5 or more years in the making!

    Best of luck to you!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    I'd really like to hear more from you Carolyn, there are lots of us here who would like to help you!

    Please, however, don't sped any more money on software, courses or even worse paid traffic! You don't need any more courses or software - we can help you without that. And paid traffic will just be throwing money away at the moment until your sites and sales funnel are fixed.

    Also, don't worry about whether you should give up on Internet marketing. I am pretty sure you will get it - when you have the right advice, and learn to do some research for yourself. And the people who have offered to help you wouldn't offer to help if they thought you were a lost cause.

    ** slight cross posting here slightly - it seems we were typing at the same time! **
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  • Profile picture of the author louie6925
    I was waiting to see Alexas post before posting myself as I was afraid of being shot down, but she stated one thing that I was going to say which I personally have found to be true...........and that is the quality of search engine traffic!

    I like you had alot of websites, some of which were ranking and getting reasonable traffic, but no revenue! after alot of researching and networking I came to the conclusion that making money creating websites and spending your time on SEO is a tough game and is better left to the more advanced individuals! I hated having to admit defeat, especially after putting in so much work, but now i can look from the outside in, I find it quite apparent that marketers are selling the dream of 'create a website, monetise and have financial freedom' and it simply is not the real world.

    I feel you have two choices, and that is to admit defeat and look into other areas of IM or as suggested above, cut down the amount of sites and focus on 2 or 3 only.

    Personally I would go with the first! there is a whole lot more to IM than building and ranking sites, and more to the point less work involved. You seem to me to be someone with a fantastic work ethic, therefore you should channel that into more proven methods such as offering services or other areas of affiliate marketing.

    And to any other newbies reading your post need to take notes and understand that the 'dream' is not as straight forward as it seems, and realise there are alot of unscrupolus persons out there that will sell you the dream, and websites and SEO seems to be the common as they know people are going to spend alot of money trying to acheive this, therefore its a very lucrative dream for them to sell!!!

    My advice to you would be choose your best 3 sites in the biggest niches, then go to google and type in "largest forums online" you will see sites listing various forums which have large volumes of people every day,join several of these forums for each of your 3 nniches, build a good profile over a month, not selling anything, just join in on chats, offer advice etc etc, then in month 2 create a sig, your daily routine should be posting valuable comments and advice and discussions on each forum! if done right by the end of month 2 you will be driving double the traffic you are getting now and alot more targeted, and more importantly you will have more time to learn new methods such as researching PPC, banners etc and from there you can start creating multiple streams of traffic and build a business without putting all your eggs in googles basket!

    Like I said, the day I stopped relying on google for traffic is the day my online biz moved forward! For a while I've though SEO and googles traffic to be poor quality but never wanted to say for fear of getting shot down on here, but now someone of Alexa's experience and knowledge has also said it then that has as good as confirmed it for me!

    Good luck, stay mentally focused and if need be, become a born again newbie and learn new stuff, you obviously have good work ethics and you will get there! Now run away from big G and never look back! FREEDOM
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    Feel free to chat if you live in the UK I may have something for you!
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Louie, very sound advice, and I will take it...your advice about the forums.
      Thanks so much.
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      One more note, as I prepare to regroup...I discovered while reading all of these truly helpful responses that it is not the moment yet to give up, even though I know I need to revamp my present methods. Not because I am some sort of hero, but because life circumstances preclude it. I simply must find a way to work successfully online. I am a retired grandma, living in a foreign country where work permits are not available, and in any case I have passed the age where I am physically able to compete in the workforce. People invest in the hope of making money online for a wide array of reasons, mine is the very real aspect of the economic challenges of being on one's own, managing on Social Security, and still having people depend on you. So, changing tactics is what is up next. It has been suggested that IM might not be for me. I can understand how that could be a reasonable conclusion for someone else who has been at it this long. But actually what is not for me, is relinquishing the determination to become financially sound.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bobdarko
    I know how you can make money within the next week! Take your sites that are underperforming and advertise them for sale on flippa.com. At a guess you will probably get a minimum of $250 per site and probably a lot lot more than you may think! Maybe try selling one site and see how you get on.

    Then concentrate your efforts on your more popular sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Letsurf
    My first thought is that you said you have never had more than 200 visitors a month to any of the sites yet you said they were high search volume. This doesn't add up if you have high rankings. When you're doing keyword research are you going off the "Broad" search volume data? I know this may seem like a no brainier but you'd be surprised how many people miss this detail.
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Yes, obviously there is something wrong. At first I did keyword research using broad, then moved to exact. Didn't make any difference in my traffic. Thank you for the advice...I did switch, but only after being far into the process, so too late to help earlier work,


      Originally Posted by Letsurf View Post

      My first thought is that you said you have never had more than 200 visitors a month to any of the sites yet you said they were high search volume. This doesn't add up if you have high rankings. When you're doing keyword research are you going off the "Broad" search volume data? I know this may seem like a no brainier but you'd be surprised how many people miss this detail.
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  • Profile picture of the author Irwin Dominguez
    Solid advice in this post - Carolyn, you've gained so much experience over the past couple of years; just keep your head up and tweak a few things... it feels like you're right "there". Keep going!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Earn.cx
    Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

    I am a regular reader of the WF and I have been in IM now for over 2 years, very diligently working, posting and taking coaching from the most reputable teachers available. First, I apologize if this post is a wet blanket, but I really need to do some hard thinking here. About my work, I do no black or gray hat, all my content is hand written original work. I use MNF for keyword research, and I publish articles on all the large directories. I create linkwheels and have many Web 2.0 sites where I post and link back to my original sites. I have to date over 20 sites online, many of them 2 years old, and the older sites have at least 25 original articles, with internal linking, and outbound links. Occasionally I will do a mass publishing of a very carefully spun and meticulously checked original article, using the Best Spinner, and Article Marketing Robot. And a few times I have used Backlink Energizer and the setchronjob site to drip backlinks. The most traffic I get is on a few of the older sites, about 250 visitors a month. Most hover at less than 100. I have many, many keywords on page one, some are even number 1.

    Every single one of my sites is a complete failure. In 2 years I have cleared about $160. If I had been paid to study and learn all these complex SEO techniques, I would be rich. I have begun to believe this is all a pipe dream. I hear stories about people getting good incomes, but I have never personally met anyone who has succeeded in internet marketing. Everyone I know personally who is doing this, is going through the same thing. All I see are pictures on a screen to prove that it is possible. I simply do not know what to think, or what to do. I am totally discouraged. Does anyone have anything to offer to help me sort this out?

    I am at the end of my rope. I wonder if it is possible that my sites are being blocked.
    Everything you know so far is very impressive. You are far ahead of most people.
    Drop me a PM. I can take a look and help take a look what you could be doing to improve.

    I've made money in all kinds of industries. I know how it feels like to be down, and I can help you out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mikeaha
    Carolyn,

    I cannot top what much more experienced and successful folks have said in this thread. I can commiserate with you in that it took me over 4 years to make $200 in one month ( I had one month where I made more but it was only one time in 2006). But here is the deal!

    Do you know what makes you different from 99% of the IM population? You did the best you knew. And you did it for 2 years +. Most folks that try their hand at IM because of untold riches and "easy" money quit in a week.

    I read somewhere (not sure if it is true) that only 10% of Imers make any money (I'm talking one sale, not Gagillions per week).

    As a Former U.S Marine, I respect Honor, Courage, and Commitment. i don't know you, but you have displayed Honor (best content to help your visitors) and Commitment (this is exemplified by your post). I can also tell that you have courage. Courage to bear your thoughts and doubts in a public forum for all to see. I respect You!

    Stand strong and listen to these folks (you know which ones) who want to help you and you will make it. Here's why! While you have made no money since you started, you have learned more than you know. Reading your post is all the proof you need to see that. Sit back, listen to the folks here that are trying to help you and take a good look at all that you have learned. With your stubborn (in a fantastic way work ethic (2 years with a few bucks and redirection from people who know and care......You're gonna be making Gagillions soon!

    To your Success

    Mike Aha
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      Hi Mike,
      Wow! With support like this I can certainly muster the strength to keep going. I am so moved by all the help, and I can promise everyone, that when my time comes that I am enjoying a measure of success, this caring support I am receiving will definitely be paid forward.
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      • Profile picture of the author Charles E. White
        Carolyn, are all your sites that you link to one another from the same hosting company? Like all they are from godaddy or hostgator? If so, and Google sees the same IP address then that could be part of the problem.
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        • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
          Yes, I use Host Gator for all of my sites. Would using a VPN make a positive difference? BTW, I love your avatar...


          Originally Posted by Charles E. White View Post

          Carolyn, are all your sites that you link to one another from the same hosting company? Like all they are from godaddy or hostgator? If so, and Google sees the same IP address then that could be part of the problem.
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          • Profile picture of the author ChrisShaw
            Originally Posted by carolynblake View Post

            Yes, I use Host Gator for all of my sites. Would using a VPN make a positive difference? BTW, I love your avatar...
            Yeah I think Charles is right there from what I understand of how Google views sites on the same IP and if you have shared hosting like a lot of us do, they will be all on the same IP for sure.

            Personally, I don't think you need to go the expense of a VPN just yet until you get stuff fixed and you'll have to address your linking issue.

            It's OK to internally link within one site but on shared hosting you don't want to be having 'site A' linking to all your other 19 sites and all those 19 linking back and also to each other. That is bad if that's the case from what I've read and you'll need to de-link that type of structure to make it look more natural.

            I think it's OK (or it was!) to have one hub site in a silo structure linking to multiple sites below it but they should not then be cross-linked to each other. Example: say you have a site called golf.com (I wish!), then you have other sites called golfclubs.com, golfballs.com, golftees.com, golfcourses.com, etc. You would use golf.com as your hub or the head of your silo and link from there to those mentioned above.

            In each of those silo sites, you would link downwards so in golfclubs.com from the index page you'd link to Callaway clubs, Ping clubs, TaylorMade clubs and then link again downwards in each to drivers, irons, wedges and so on. You get the idea and you would never cross-link to say, golfballs.com because this silo is only about golf clubs but there's a theme to the whole structure....golf.

            This makes sense to the search engines so if your sites aren't looking like that then you need to check your linking and correct it / make it better.
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            • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
              [quote=ChrisShaw;6255085]Yeah I think Charles is right there from what I understand of how Google views sites on the same IP and if you have shared hosting like a lot of us do, they will be all on the same IP for sure.

              Personally, I don't think you need to go the expense of a VPN just yet until you get stuff fixed and you'll have to address your linking issue.

              I do already use a VPN because in the country I am in at present, the internet is restricted, so I have to use it to get to certain sites.

              It's OK to internally link within one site but on shared hosting you don't want to be having 'site A' linking to all your other 19 sites and all those 19 linking back and also to each other. That is bad if that's the case from what I've read and you'll need to de-link that type of structure to make it look more natural.
              This situation thank goodness, I do not have.

              I think it's OK (or it was!) to have one hub site in a silo structure linking to multiple sites below it but they should not then be cross-linked to each other. Example: say you have a site called golf.com (I wish!), then you have other sites called golfclubs.com, golfballs.com, golftees.com, golfcourses.com, etc. You would use golf.com as your hub or the head of your silo and link from there to those mentioned above.
              If I understand you correctly you are saying to avoid the structure of a linkwheel with a hub site, and say 5 satellite sites, which link to each other in succession, and also to the hub? I did do 3 link wheels using web2.0 sites an linking each to the hub site. I wonder If I should take them down.

              What about this? My friend has a personal blog, and also has written an eBook for which we created a separate site. Both sites are on HostGator under the same account. What would happen if she put an article about her ebook on her blog, and vice versa? Is that now bad? Got to get away from Google!
              Thanks Chris for the help.
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              • Profile picture of the author ChrisShaw
                To be fair Carolyn, I've never used a link wheel (or not that I've done intentionally!) and some people may think I'm foolish but I don't really do any keyword research and I know someone else who's extremely successful as an internet marketer who doesn't do any keyword research either.

                When I write a blog post or an article, yes I'll put the important things of what it's about in the title , anchor text and the first sentence but then I just write what I feel and whatever springs to mind about the subject and never think about the keywords.

                To me I'm writing for my readers not the search engines and maybe I don't rank as highly as someone who pays attention to these things but I just don't want to waste my time on keyword research because it's always changing anyway.

                For your friend and her two sites on the same IP, I can't say it's wrong to be linking both ways but Google will probably ignore the two-way links for SEO purposes. Probably better to just link from one site only but which way is better, ebook to blog or blog to ebook? Not sure, hopefully someone can shed some light on that.
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        • Profile picture of the author onSubie
          Originally Posted by Charles E. White View Post

          Carolyn, are all your sites that you link to one another from the same hosting company? Like all they are from godaddy or hostgator? If so, and Google sees the same IP address then that could be part of the problem.
          Hi

          She is not being punished at all for being on the same hosting account/IP.

          She isn't having a problem ranking her sites. She said many of her keywords are on page 1 of Google.

          Clearly Google loves her keywords and her sites and is putting them on the first page.

          Despite that there is little traffic and few conversions.

          It seems to be a combination of incorrect search volume during analysis (she was basing her early research on 'broad' match search volume) and maybe not really buyer keywords.

          It may also be a niche that doesn't have eager/desperate buyers.

          Without actually knowing the keywords and niche it is difficult to say what the problem is.

          It sounds (to me) like her keywords have a search volume of under 500 exact matches per month.

          That isn't enough unless it is in a niche where you can find many keywords to build traffic.

          I think her problems stem more from the issues raised by Nicola, Alexis and AnniePot.

          Mahlon
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      • Profile picture of the author PAKOFFERS
        Are you sure you are targeting keywords which attracts the buyesrs. Like "Buy..." type of keywords..
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  • Profile picture of the author PromoDirect
    You said you are ranking for the keywords that you are using but still not getting enough traffic/visitors. I think you must revise your keywords or start using long tail keywords.

    You must also increase the number of index pages for you website. I am not sure through which medium you are making money out of these websites. Some popular medium of making money online is to provide banner or text link ads on your website, Google Adsense, Affiliate marketing, dedicated sponsored page or guest post.

    There are people who are generating good income out of their websites.

    All The Best! - Do let us know your progress with your websites.
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  • Profile picture of the author carrot
    If you have 1st page ranking and no traffic, your keyword reasearch was wrong.
    Even 20 minute autoblogs that rank get traffic (they dont convert, or last long, buts thats not my point).

    Can you give some stats on your keywords, maybe even give a genuine example, as you dont seem to have much to lose.

    Re interlinking, it doesnt help much, but its not going to kill you either.
    As a small web developer, i host lots of sites that link back to me on the same server.
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  • Profile picture of the author brittlesnc
    Hi Carolyn,

    A WF thread I think you really HAVE TO check out is at the following:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...ng-strong.html

    My recommendation is to read that entire thread but especially to pay close attention to the last post (post #50) on the first page of that thread...it will change your whole outlook and way of doing things online to be successful...and better still it might give you ideas for how to create a successful site without being so reliant on Google for traffic...

    Also check out another thread about getting traffic at:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...339-month.html

    The Warrior by the name of Yukon really knows his stuff about generating traffic, in particular repeat traffic, and he knows a lot about creating/marketing a successful site in general.
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    • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
      thank you Brittlesnc, I am on it!
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  • Profile picture of the author topgold
    I have 2 recommendations for you.

    1) Forget spinning content - that is purely for backlink purposes only. Concentrate on building a solid reputation in an article directory. I recommend Squidoo : Welcome to Squidoo, as this has been a huge source of actual BUYER traffic for me. I am sure you won't be disappointed.

    2) Since you know so much about SEO now, consider hiring out your services. The quickest way for you to make good income is this method, and I have helped friends generate at least $500/month per customer using this method. Make a listing in the "Warriors for Hire" section and you'll get a customer within a week's time.

    Best of luck, and please stop this nonsense about "giving up"! I am confident that you will succeed in all of your endeavors.

    -Vincent
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  • Profile picture of the author carolynblake
    Thank you Vincent, I have considered this option, but since Fivver seems to dominate this type of work, at $5 a pop, I would think a person would have to put in 10 hour days to make any money at all. As for Squidoo, I know they are loved, but I detest them. I have tried to build lenses and got exhausted from all their requirements. Perhaps I could take another look.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Varga
      There are many good advices here. So I just want to share and an idea.

      If you are still in Romania I am sure that you can really profit from your seo knowledge there. In many cases links from your own and your web2 sites will be enough to rank smaller firm's website for local terms, seriously!

      I can't tell you how smaller is the seo competition in most cases in this part of the word. I know people who easily make good money from this.

      Good luck and don't give up!
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    What a shame, you seem to have done a lot of good work with high quality content. Might be worth considering getting back links from forums and blogs in a similar niche to your own. Also have you thought about adding a signature link to your warrior forum profile here? Why not pick three of your best websites and include them in your signature link? All the very best
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  • Profile picture of the author HKSEO Jonbones
    Great study thread for anyone looking to get some decent advice, I know I've learned a few things in this one
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