Let's Screw Some Newbies Who Don't Know Any Better!

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by Easy Cash

IM is no different. Whether someone employs cheap labour to create a product is no different from an offline business employing a student to do a 'professionals' task.

Look at a lot of the major corporations around and you will discover similar principles.

you are SO right!

As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Why does the opening rant sound to me more like an infomercial for Derrick Gehl?

Anyone else noticing what I saw?

Floyd I wanted to mention a few quality vendors in my post so it wasn't just a bunch of negativity. Not an infomercial or I would have placed a link in my sig to promote their course.

Originally Posted by artwebster

Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.

Yeah I've seen a lot of people carrying on about the "offline goldmine" or whatever it is. I used to work closely with brick and mortars to develop a Web presence, build email lists, drive traffic etc. - we increased profits for many clients and the whole premise was built on results that could be measured and reproduced.

I have my doubts about the current rage re: "make a killing from offline businesses". I've seen very little suggested about how to actually improve profits for these offline "targets", as the focus is always about how the IMer can make "easy money" again off or from - never with the offline business as any real consultation program should be.

Originally Posted by Steadyon

Not that I advocate it at all, far from it, but even poor information if APPLIED and ACTED ON can be more profitable than super information that just gathers dust.

Far too many people think money still grows on trees as far as the internet is concerned and even though they say they spend long hours doing this or that, they aren't actually doing anything EFFECTIVE and so don't make any money.

I agree that 90% of the people claiming they want to succeed online appear to have no real intentions of doing so. And this whole issue does get muddled a bit with the debate of customer not really applying method or "method" being ghost written fantasy in the first place.

Definitely potential for a tangled Web here, no pun intended.

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

The sad part is that there are lot of good guys & girls in the IM niche who provide excellent info products that can actually help you but most people go for the shiny, loud new thing out there.

It's sad but true man. So often I've seen great products with real methodology turn out "OK" numbers and then watched some silly ass "system" - again with the blockbuster movie title - sell a 7 figure launch.

How many people are really making money with these bogus product launches? Few to none I would imagine and I'd love to find some reliable poll stats on this.

Originally Posted by Anomaly1974

However, my latest product is about how I did lose (and kept off) 65 pounds or about 37 kilos so I do know a bit about that. Being an ex "tough guy" (Before it was sanctioned by the UFC) and having been in a few wrestling matches "back in the day" I also felt justified adding some information about weight gain, toning and trimming and doing it in a healthy manner.

That's great! I hope you do very well with this.

RE: the other projects you mentioned I again want to clarify that I'm not attacking the ghost writers here.

[jsbrooks]

Good post Tim. I do agree that marketers should personally create their own material or closely supervise a team to do it. I do outsource article writing to sources that are very knowledgeable in my niche.

[gb4biz]

Dear Tim, I thought your post showed you have some ka-chingas ( more people need these ) and a good bit of Passion on the subject. I agree with EasyCash, "The Almighty Buck" makes too many people do too many stupid things.

Remember. "If it looks to good to be true"....


I will disagree with one point though, if someone can take an Idea and improve and expand it to be of greater value to the consumer, then that is a plus. Unfortunately
the fast buck artists don't care! They are in every business and profession around and it's up to you, I and other honest marketers to communicate this point of view in any format we have available, Blog, Forum, Article, Newsletter, Social Sites, etc.

At least some will see it and take heed to the message. Now in closing I will say this, there are many, many very good marketers out there and it's up to each of us to find those we can trust. One of the "Best" in my book is a member here named Paul Myers
who I have never talked to personally, but I'm on his list and he has supplied me with an endless amount of quality Info over a two year period and only tried to sell me a half dozen times. There are countless others TOO! If you have a blog I would suggest using your forum piece and also do an article. If I can have your permission, I would like to post it on my blog? Let me know.

[g00db0y]

I guess you're absolutely right Easy Cash. Everything eventually come down to $$

Originally Posted by gb4biz

If you have a blog I would suggest using your forum piece and also do an article. If I can have your permission, I would like to post it on my blog? Let me know.

Good idea. I think I'll do that now.

Sure you can post this or link to it from your blog. A link to my blog would be appreciated in that event.

[g00db0y]

Originally Posted by Jmn187

Interesting point made here. Its should just be known. To all you newbies out there. Don't buy anything.

Just read Warrior Forum!

and I'm done

1000% AGREE.

Not buying anything is one way to go about it I guess LOL.

Honestly though I spend money every month on my growth and education and my aim was not to scare people out of buying altogether. Just apply more due diligence, look for more feedback, etc.

Above and beyond just the main WF I urge marketers of any experience level to get plugged into the private War Room. And again the work shops run through this forum are great investments.

[oneempowered]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Yeah I've seen a lot of people carrying on about the "offline goldmine" or whatever it is. I used to work closely with brick and mortars to develop a Web presence, build email lists, drive traffic etc. - we increased profits for many clients and the whole premise was built on results that could be measured and reproduced.

I have my doubts about the current rage re: "make a killing from offline businesses". I've seen very little suggested about how to actually improve profits for these offline "targets", as the focus is always about how the IMer can make "easy money" again off or from - never with the offline business as any real consultation program should be.

I have to disagree with you there!

Many of the contributers in the Offline Biz threads are increasing profits for small businesses using measurable marketing strategies. If you've "never" seen the emphasis in producing results for the businesses, you haven't researched it much at all.

I make a lot of money for businesses and I've been doing it for years before I found this great forum. The internet is just a new tool (or set of tools) for me to help them market their businesses. If I don't deliver results, they get their money back. Making them money is what it's all about.

As with everything, there are a few who are just out to make themselves a quick buck. They won't last.

I agree with pretty much everything else that you said.

Originally Posted by artwebster

Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.

Again, the Offline Biz threads are about making the businesses money.

The people who are ripping off small businesses are the web designers who charge thousands of dollars for sites that don't make the business any money.

[Kelvin Nikkel]

Thank you for this! I totally agree with you and it is because of this that I write my own products. It is also because of this that I have NEVER bought a so called Guru's guide to riches book. I really don't have faith in them.

There are a few IMers out there though whom I tend to trust and if I had the opportunity to buy, I would definitely buy from them. Mainly from what I have witnessed here on WF.

Thanks again

Kelvin

[dwshoup]

Tim stated that they were not given ANY resources to write from which makes the product crap. I myself have purchased crap and now I know why.

Outsourcing some aspects of your business is one thing but hiring someone to write an "expert guide" that has no experience or research in the field is bull**** and a scam.

[ngjkro]

the best 'guru' is your own experiences
just grab some free information available in warrior forum, start action and gain experiences.

[AlexKaplo]

Great post,

In reality I had no clue "top" marketers outsource their courses, programs, ebooks, etc. Very informative information you posted and I certainly pulled many lessons from it. Thanks for sharing and your rant is perfectly fine as this truly is a big issue which cannot be solved.

Like everywhere else, there's ethical and unethical people. You have the judge and make the wise decision to invest or not.

Alex Kaplo

[oneempowered]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

you are SO right!

As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.

LOL, I had similar experiences with the same bank. Migrating completely away from FDR caused nightmares.

[DavidVincentMuir]

All I can say is...100% spot on!

[Eric Lorence]

Originally Posted by artwebster

A nice choice of subject line.

Maybe your next could be - "Let's go screw some offline businesses!"

It seems to me that the whole ethos of internet marketing has been reduced to who can make the biggest (as in number of nausiatingly repetitious pages) product and sell it to the biggest number of gullible idiots.

I learned a long time ago that there are very few people in internet marketing whom I can trust. Most of my trust was destroyed when asking for clarification of points they had made in marketing materials or in forums and getting no credible response.

I have watched the trends in marketing flow in and out like the tide. Someone will make a sale of a 'new' idea and, before you can turn and spit, everybody is promoting it. Currently the two hot ideas are ripping off offline businesses using smoke, mirrors and lies and membership sites - or was that last week?.

LOL!

Just forgot to add "Cash Cow" to the title...

[sbecom]

Thank you dear Tim,

I almost fell into a similar trap. The marketing gurus (2 of them) on PPC got me hooked with their "First Month Free, then monthly $xxx" training. They said I could easily walkout before the end of the month and I wouldn't be required to pay 1 cent.

On their site, I checked for a link to unsubscribe. There was none!

I got suspicious. I began getting their emails (of course, with a "unsubscribe here" link included). I tried that link to unsubscribe myself from their emails. I thought I had the seen the last of these 2 gurus.

But, no! The emails kept coming to my email address regularly, sometimes more than 1 each day! That proved that these are nothing but scamsters!

I have created a filter in my email account to directly delete any more mails from them. Also, let them ask me for even 1 dollar after the "Free" month is over... they will find then that they shouldn't have existed!

Let's device some tactics like this to deal with these spammers and scamsters.

Regards,

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by oneempowered

Many of the contributers in the Offline Biz threads are increasing profits for small businesses using measurable marketing strategies. If you've "never" seen the emphasis in producing results for the businesses, you haven't researched it much at all.

Fair enough. I should have tempered my statements somewhat.

I believe there are many professionals who assist small businesses in an effective and ethical manner. Certainly I don't want to lash out at reputable and honorable providers.

I was referring to a few conversations and threads I've seen that were much hyped and clearly lacked the win-win angle. As with any "movement" there are parties who are looking at the easy money/exploitation angle rather than at how they can move the targeted small businesses forward.

But as you indicated I shouldn't make "blanket statements" on this or any other issue.

[sbecom]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

you are SO right!

As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.

Happened to me too when I was working on a great Oil company's project. The same consultancy's gurus/lords were doing a project that began almost 5 years before. I was the only outsider. They gave me their toughest module and asked me to complete it within a week. They never bothered to tell me what that module was suppose to do, how it was supposed to act, what were the inputs and outputs... These guys were always in the meeting room... eating and drinking, or were roaming outside. They had their own groups, stayed in the best hotels, were paid the best consulting charges. The project rolled on and on... None watched them, none cared!

No serious work seemed to take place, nothing was completed. I got myself out of that project within 2 weeks. I got better work satisfaction in the next project which was small but had the best project leaders and managers.

[jshm2]

I'm scratching my head with this one. Surely you should look at the house before throwing stones! The very fact that all marketers and advertisers (not the same person believe me) are to a certain extent liars should not be lost on anyone.

Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.

The law states that a product must deliver what it is advertised to. This does not mean that all those hot chicks and all that pile of cash in the ad should be in your bedroom the instant you purchase. But the benefit or claim must be achievable.

If it works and does the job then does it matter? It's like saying if you get a paracetamol from your doctor it will work faster than the paracetamol from the local shop. It's the size of the pill that matters not where it's from. Same thing with self help or medical books do you think the author has been through the same problems or has had someone else write it with him giving the outline and the pay?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line. I'm no expert in half the things I make a nice sum of money writing about, but I know my sources and know even an expert can't compete with proper research so lets take a reality check here. George Bush was hardly an expert was he? Do you think the TV, Video and Newspaper industry writes it's own stuff? Most TV shows are rehashed crap from abroad and adapted by other people, all the producers do is add the finish and on air it goes. Videos are usually remakes of short stories or novells, newspaper articles are also usually written by second rate writers.

I'm a writer myself and it's one of the reasons I stepped back from the mainstream industry as it's become a dirty game. So the next time you pick up a newspaper or book you maybe want to think how much of this is expertise how much good research,

Originally Posted by jshm2

Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.

Dude that's perverse. If you feel that way about selling - and I know a lot of people do - then have at it but it's not by any stretch the sole definition of what selling and promoting is about.

Yes buyers enjoy the hype and excitement (whether they'll admit it or not) and certainly a sales letter is about helping people buy but the idea that we must push, fool, and get over on people is ASS BACKWARDS in my opinion.

If you feel like you have to trick people into buying your stuff what does that say about your belief in your products or services? Make fun of this if you will but life to me is spiritual and I don't need to trick people into giving me money because there are plenty of people out there who legitimately want what I'm offering and it's those people I aim to attract.

I'm not saying I'm somehow a "better" person than anyone else - in fact I won't even pretend to be a nice guy because often I'm not. I'm just being clear about my marketing philosophy. I'm not throwing stones from a glass house by any stretch and it appears you and I have polar opposite perspectives on what selling is about.

Originally Posted by jshm2

If it works and does the job then does it matter?
I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line.

Ok I'm a writer to and I agree with you that we (writer types) can source, research, and create solid quality on things outside of our authority bubble, so to speak. But as I've had to point out previously in this thread I'm not talking about content that "works anyway" I'm citing specific cases where experts are selling pure fantasy that was dreamed up by hired help (who no doubt did their best).

The cases I pointed out and others like them don't "work". Someone who has never made a sale in their life with PPC isn't going to give worthwhile insight to a consumer who wants to boost sales from their Website and it's unacceptable that experts in the market are knowingly selling worthless info billed as authoritative content.

So to be clear I'm not talking about a typical scenario where a journalist researches and churns out quality material. I'm talking about cases where people are paying to learn specific skills from recognized authorities and are getting fairy tales with zero probability of positive impact.

That said I know opinions vary and I respect your right to think in entirely different terms on this or any other issue. I just want to be crystal clear in stating I'm not talking about outsourcing in general; these are specifically inappropriate cases.

Originally Posted by jshm2

George Bush was hardly an expert was he? ... So the next time you pick up a newspaper or book you maybe want to think how much of this is expertise how much good research,

HARDLY is right LOL.

And true journalism/research is a critical part of our information-driven society I absolutely agree with you. But people who buy cook books from a Food Network expert are expecting to get a recipe , food combinations, and techniques that are proven to work - not some crap I (who never cook) did my homework on and think might do the trick.

If I do the research and writing and then Emeril looks it over and makes his corrections that's another story. But in the cases referenced in my initial rant that's not what people are getting for their $47, $97, or more.

[Scott Ames]

Some copywriters farm out assignments so that a $25,000 letter might be written by a $500 junior copywriter.... however... in that case the copywriter should spend some time on it and spiff up the copy before its released. That's what is being paid for.

I don't care if a Guru has writers do the dirty work, but that information should have come from the guru, outlined by the guru, and/or reviewed in every detail by the guru.

The problem for the consumer is that they have no idea who is spilling all their best information and who is just slinging ****.

[christyn1224]

Great Post, Tim!

I don't personally have anything against outsourcing if one doesn't feel capable enough to write something entirely on his/her own, but in the end, it's the person slapping their name on the product that should double check it for accuracy...

I write the majority of my content by myself and for those rare pieces I don't write, I provide the ghostwriter with information on what I want included in the work. Once received, I reread and edit it to make it my own. (I am a tad bit of a perfectionist and a stickler for items I release sounding like me. )

[Rich Mann]

I couldn't agree more with you Tim.

I, regrettably, have fallen victim to more than one scam where the author of a WSO or some methodology guru claimed to be a SME (subject matter expert) and ended up being full of S#!t.

One such scam I fell for a few months ago, cost me three months valuable time and some $ "as I watched over their shoulder" to earn $100 a day within 90 days. The jerk had hundreds of people following in a private forum and then about half way through, ditched everyone and ran with the money. Never to be heard from again.

100% money back guarantee? BS! No one got their money back and the crap that was being taught was later discovered to be absolute unfettered S#!t with no earning potential. I know, because I worked 12-14 hours a day seven days a week for three months implementing the methods only to see NO and I mean NO results in the form of earnings.

I do agree with some of the posters, that the term "Newbie" is a bit dehumanizing, however, the term does accurately depict their level of experience.

I do believe that many people starting out in IM are under the persuasion of "Lotto" mentality thinking fueled by all the hype they've heard from the "gurus" pitching the one click to success BS. The truth is, Internet Marketing is a Business. And just like any business, nothing is free. You either have to know and understand business principles or work with someone that does if you stand any chance at all of succeeding.

Every "guru" marketer out there fully understands the theory of "perceived value" the higher the price of the product the higher the perceived value. That's the hook. That doesn't mean that it's a quality product capable of income producing results.

The bottom line is, until those starting out in this business realize that there is no magic bullet and you will not gain some thousand dollar a day insider secret from a $17, $27, $97, $197, $297 or more e-book or report, they will always be a "target market" for any one wanting to exploit them.

Not to say that there isn't some valuable information in these reports if the author has used the method themselves and can prove that the information produces the desired result. But that's the catch. Because both of these criteria can be faked and the beginner would never know the difference.

My final thought is, unless a beginner in this business fully understands and comprehends business and marketing principles, has a vast skill base of application software and internet savvy, enough start-up capital to fund their venture and can dedicate copious amounts of time, money and effort toward building their business, the chances of success are small. Even having all of the aforementioned attributes is no guarantee of long-term success.

But if you think you've got what it takes to get in, get the knowledge and do the work, there is real money to be made. It can be a fun and rewarding business as long as you remember that it is a business and that those wanting you to buy their wares are in the business of making money too. Stop looking for shiny things and fast bucks. All that glitters isn't gold and there's no such thing as fast money in a sustainable business.

[jkatzenback]

funny there was a recent clickbank product that promised traffic and the sales page used traffic stats from the owners other clickbank product and passed off the traffic as being from his tool instead of the thousands of emails that were sent. caveat emptor!

Originally Posted by Rich Mann

I do believe that many people starting out in IM are under the persuasion of "Lotto" mentality thinking fueled by all the hype they've heard from the "gurus" pitching the one click to success BS. The truth is, Internet Marketing is a Business. And just like any business, nothing is free. You either have to know and understand business principles or work with someone that does if you stand any chance at all of succeeding.

The bottom line is, until those starting out in this business realize that there is no magic bullet and you will not gain some thousand dollar a day insider secret from a $17, $27, $97, $197, $297 or more e-book or report, they will always be a "target market" for any one wanting to exploit them.

My final thought is, unless a beginner in this business fully understands and comprehends business and marketing principles, has a vast skill base of application software and internet savvy, enough start-up capital to fund their venture and can dedicate copious amounts of time, money and effort toward building their business, the chances of success are small. Even having all of the aforementioned attributes is no guarantee of long-term success.

Well said Rich! I hope new readers will heed this advice as it's critical.

I'd wager 90% (more?) of people who claim to want an online business really want a handout. Sadly I encounter very few people whose mindset and intention match what they say about "wanting success".

[Alexissalaam]

great advice Tim I know first hand i'm into fitness and a couple years back I went to a fitness seminar and at least a quarter of the speakers were out of shape and I mean by a lot LBS. So be careful who you buy from.

Good going Tim

[Alexissalaam]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

you are SO right!

As an IT consultant, I was once working on a project for Bank One (now Chase). Out of maybe 30 programmers, I was the only outsider - the rest of the team was Andersen Consulting / Accenture.

The bank was paying PREMIUM rates for them, plus flying them in every week.

There was only 1 person on the team with any experience.

No one else had even really thought of becoming programmers until recruited by Anderson at university job fairs. The girl next to me was a college student 6 months earlier, and majored in history! Anderson hired her, sent her to a few weeks of training in java programming, and then billed her to clients for premium rates. The bank was spending over $1 million a month for these clowns who would fight over the copy of 'java programming for dummies' book!!

SO you are right - this happens in a lot of industries.

Well Jason is'nt that the American. Some of the biggest companies in the world have been doing this since the dawn of time so why would it suprise anybody now in most cases it's buyer beware.

[Anthony J Namata]

It has to be said, this post is spot on. I practically want to regurgitate every time I come across some of these sales pitches. And you know what, like you hinted, there is a big fat tubo lardo I know of (clearly overweight the bastard!) who is unashamedly using other peoples' bodies and preaching weight-loss off the back of that. Can you imagine that!!! I am appalled! He only shows his chubby face on the site (I can tell a fatso from like a mile way...who are you kiddin'!). BUT I WON'T NAME HIM.

Thank you for an excellent post. We should actually PROMOTE this thread. I know I will.

Anthony

[jshm2]

I think there is confusion over the issue of content production and content sale (infotail or information selling) I'm an old hand at content production and work for a publishing company among other things and am just starting my own company. I don't think there is any other profitable way yet to mass produce info products at such small time schedules without outsourcing is what I am getting at.

One man and his site operations are liked by Yahoogle because it is non-spun content and written with the reader in mind, as are most quality books. I think what you're referring to is people who generate for profit rather than provide something of use. I've ditched quite a few would be writers who would provide work that read poorly but was on a high demand sector.

Ebook publishing it seems to be has become the bastard child of real book publishing where people can no longer wait (or have the skill) to publish and people (newbies?) demand niche information which they cannot be bothered to research, have the skill to research, or just don't know what they want and fall prey to "get indexed by google now!" or make a billion on adsense for 29.99!" scams.

I'm sure there are people in the e-publishing sector who could become quality writers if they just take the time to learn the art (and it is) of writing instead of churning out the next info product for profit and leaving a wake of disappointed and short changed readers behind them.

Writing is like poetry in that the beauty lies not in one verse or stanza but in the poem as a whole and the reader walks away changed for the better from reading it.

[Martin Luxton]

Tim,

Due diligence is important but it helps a lot to have been around a bit so you have an idea what's going on.

For example, I recently got a system which a guru said was high value and had been created especially for his/her list of buyers. I happen to know it was originally a low-cost WSO here which somebody then did a PLR version of and which is now a download on various membership sites. Not impressed.

I had heard some negative comments about this marketer before but gave them the benefit of the doubt. Now I am much more sceptical of their claims.

Martin

[Buildingfutures]

This is a horrid epidemic that is going on. People using so called 'super marketing techniques' to get new people. I'm in the process of working to get one removed currently, as it is just a horrid horrid way for newbies to make money. Its such a faulty system that it might NEVER happen.

Seriously, anyone with a 6th grade education can make decent money if they know proper grammar and can write articles.

It is seriously just too easy to get money TODAY by having a client or who pay for some articles.

This kind of behavior among the scammers just disgusts me in a way where I want to just wretch and throw a large object at their face.

[Texson5]

Hi Tim, thank you for writing this.

I am a "newbie" but I was even starting to wonder about some of this IM stuff
myself.

Jess

[HeySal]

I have to wonder why a reputable outsourcer would even hire someone for a project that wasn't an expert in the field they were writing about without handing them the talking points.

Next I wonder about ghost writers who would accept such a project.

When I was fresh out of college Dow Chemical wanted me to write a report for them - first off I had references from my professors that I was up to the assignment. Second, I was new enough to be naive. When I asked them to sign the facts that I was handed so if things went legal over libel, it would be their suit and I wouldn't be involved. Well - their facts were nothing but a sheet of lies and they dropped me off like a hot potato. I was being set up to take the fall if they encountered legal problems. They didn't expect me to realize that.

Secondly - after all the crap that's been floating the net for so long it would seem that the buyer would be wary about anything written that is "trend" material. Look at this Niche marketing crap. Niche this niche that - everywhere "niche marketing" information. Shouldn't that be a major clue that material is being parroted or that a title is being used to sell any piece of crap? Niche marketing isn't new - it's always been around. What is new is that we have the capability now to do consumer based, rather than product based, marketing to develop business strategies. Yet the net is flooded with info about "niche marketing". Good grief. How many ways can someone say "pinpoint a product that people want - this is how to find out what they are looking for" before it has all been said? About the time you see a million search results when you search for something it's time you can start figuring you are going to be seeing repeat material or complete bs. It shouldn't take pages of discussion to figure that one out.

[Karen Blundell]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

If you feel like you have to trick people into buying your stuff what does that say about your belief in your products or services? Make fun of this if you will but life to me is spiritual and I don't need to trick people into giving me money because there are plenty of people out there who legitimately want what I'm offering and it's those people I aim to attract.

bravo! and I'm with you 100%. I think having your type of attitude means that your customers will be more likely to trust you, and because they trust you, they will buy, but they will also recommend you to their associates.

[Daniel Molano]

Tim, what a great post.

And although I do agree with some points like those made by Chris W. Sutton, I also do agree with you mostly.

Now, outsourcing can be extremely powerful, but you are right, the line must be drawn somewhere.

I confess I outsource a lot of my articles and press releases, or like Paul Myers would call them "teaser pieces", nevertheless they are outsourced to people who know what the hell they are talking about.

Yet I would never dare to outsource a paid product.

But before I close, I'm completely against guru bashing, I've seen some kickass guru products with information I know works (although I've never had to pay for them), but then again I don't know which one you are talking about so I can't argue with you there.

Anyway, great post Tim, I'll give it 5 stars as well.

[Steadyon]

As more people lose their jobs around the world in the coming months, there will be sharks, crocs and alligators waiting to get their jaws around the poor guy's redundancy money :-(

Spend time on this forum, then spend $25 dollars in Barnes and Noble on a good SEO book. Then spend $37 for the War Room membership. Then spend $50 dollars on google adwords for your niche to test out your idea. Then spend $5 on a coffee and a cake and decide on your first 3 websites.

Set up an account with Hostgator $10 or so and get started.

Re read the book and spend a bit more time here.

By then you should have earned enough to have a few more coffees and cake and then you can decide what to do next to multiply your earnings.

[oneempowered]

Originally Posted by jshm2

Before you start frothing I'm not talking about personal character I'm talking about the art of selling and promoting require a little exaggeration and even some little underhanded tricks, within the law of course, to push a potential into a certain buyer.

Wow, what a twistedly cynical view of selling. That’s about as pessimistic and paranoid as saying, “Not only is the glass half empty, but there’s not enough glass to go around and I see all of you looking at my glass.”

Selling doesn’t have to be dishonest in any way.

Originally Posted by jshm2

If it works and does the job then does it matter?
I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this "you must be an expert to make your own product and if outsourced it must be done by an expert", line.

True, but, that was the problem - it didn't work according to the OP. The content may have been worded well, but the advice was fallacious. The "gurus" sold it anyway, without correcting the bad advice. There's nothing wrong with outsourcing the writing; the problem is selling something they knew was wrong to people who don't know any better.

Man there are some smart, insightful people in this forum. I have to get in here and discuss more often. Every time I check this thread there are several new solid additions.

Originally Posted by Steadyon

Spend time on this forum, then spend $25 dollars in Barnes and Noble on a good SEO book. Then spend $37 for the War Room membership. Then spend $50 dollars on google adwords for your niche to test out your idea. Then spend $5 on a coffee and a cake and decide on your first 3 websites.

Set up an account with Hostgator $10 or so and get started.

Re read the book and spend a bit more time here.

By then you should have earned enough to have a few more coffees and cake and then you can decide what to do next to multiply your earnings.

I think that's a good example outline. And I think Dave Taylor's Idiot Guide To Growing Your Business With Google is a good SEO book, though there's probably more current material out there now.

Originally Posted by HeySal

When I was fresh out of college Dow Chemical wanted me to write a report for them - first off I had references from my professors that I was up to the assignment. Second, I was new enough to be naive. When I asked them to sign the facts that I was handed so if things went legal over libel, it would be their suit and I wouldn't be involved. Well - their facts were nothing but a sheet of lies and they dropped me off like a hot potato. I was being set up to take the fall if they encountered legal problems. They didn't expect me to realize that.

That's a great story. Again confirming how many industries are pushing "authoritative" info that's far from centered.

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

This is the key to the point. Most people are the couch potato type and don't want to work hard, dont want to do their own experiments, dont want to go through months of trial and error, etc. Basically, as you said, they dont want to build a business: they want a freaking handout, a free ticket to riches riding the latest super-duper "online secret". Those people are gullible and those are the type of people marketers feed from. And quite frankly... those people do NOT deserve to succeed because they're not willing to put in what it takes to succeed!

I agree. These pseudo entrepreneurs are a real hot button issue with me. I don't want to be cruel but it just irks me to no end how people talk success, act just the opposite, and then throw a fit about not getting good results.

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

I confess I outsource a lot of my articles and press releases, or like Paul Myers would call them "teaser pieces", nevertheless they are outsourced to people who know what the hell they are talking about.

That's great. I hire help for graphics, articles, support tickets, and the like. Outsourcing is smart as long as hired help aren't providing "expert" advice that's not being checked for quality.

Of course there are always risks. For instance I had to fire a support tech this year who almost got me sued - I'm still cleaning up the mess created and working to make amends; this whole affair took the wind out of me in some ways re: hired help but I just have to take responsibility and be more careful.

Originally Posted by jshm2

Writing is like poetry in that the beauty lies not in one verse or stanza but in the poem as a whole and the reader walks away changed for the better from reading it.

Good stuff. I appreciate the opportunity to have a real impact on my readers' lives whatever the topic I'm writing on and that may be one of the reasons the issues in my OP got so deeply under my skin.

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Due diligence is important but it helps a lot to have been around a bit so you have an idea what's going on.

You're right. And the tough thing is that's something that comes with time and attention, thus there's no ironclad solution to prevent new people from getting burned.

Originally Posted by oneempowered

Wow, what a twistedly cynical view of selling. That’s about as pessimistic and paranoid as saying, “Not only is the glass half empty, but there’s not enough glass to go around and I see all of you looking at my glass.”

Selling doesn’t have to be dishonest in any way.

Right on. As Zig Ziglar says we (marketers/sales people) are "assistant buyers" just helping qualified prospects see the value and make a purchase that will improve their lives.

[dwshoup]

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

This is the key to the point. Most people are the couch potato type and don't want to work hard, dont want to do their own experiments, dont want to go through months of trial and error, etc. Basically, as you said, they dont want to build a business: they want a freaking handout, a free ticket to riches riding the latest super-duper "online secret". Those people are gullible and those are the type of people marketers feed from. And quite frankly... those people do NOT deserve to succeed because they're not willing to put in what it takes to succeed!

Although I agree with you that these people are gullible, they still deserve to get what they are told they are purchasing.

I myself put a lot of time into trying to build an internet business. So much time that I have deprived myself of sleep to an unhealthy extent.

The op is why IM has a black eye so to speak in the view of the public. When it comes to business there is such a thing as business ethics.

I finally completed my first product and site and had it all online ready for me to drive traffic. I would consider it a quality product as I wrote it myself and that was with research.

I pulled the site because my girlfriend truly believes that selling information about how to make money on the internet is a scam. The original post shows why people like her would believe that.

I am now working on my second product which has nothing to do with IM it is a niche product that I hope to do well with.

However, as Tim has said, I will not attempt to trick people into buying. I also believe that to be unethical.

Tell the consumer what you have(don't lie about it) and if they buy great. If they don't buy they didn't want it.

Too many marketers are using the anonymity of the internet to conduct business in a way that if they had a store that customers could walk in and see them face to face, they would be afraid to use the same sales tactics.

[Megas]

Good post Tim.
The only thing I can think of is buy products with a money back guarantee and if you don't get the results promised, get your money back!

It's sad that this happens but a fact though.

[Robert Herrie]

The funniest thing of all would be when a newbie steps out onto the stage of the warriors forum with the spotlight baring down on them and says something to the effects of ..."so i should look for something very cheap or free to promote or write something myself right? " and i have seen this thread start several times with not one single reply post...But this is where the biggest pitfall is as far as selling false info (my opinion)...Any way for as long as you have people talking about making milllins of dollars a month without doing any work at all ..Well then you will always have that small percentage of "dummies" stepping up to the plate looking for their piece of the pie (literally)

OUT

[Web Dummie]

I'm not embarrased to say I was one of those newbies that got burned by this at one point.

And I will also admit that I was always unconsciously looking for someone to do it for me, and I considered all the time and money I was investing in buying and reading these rehashed courses and ebooks work. Each time I would go to implement one of the tactics, the first roadblock I would run in to would cause me to go off and look for another ebook or course to solve that problem. 3 out of 5 times I already had the info. on my hard drive stored away.

It is a sad fact that this happens, but none the less it is a fact. This is the cause for so many failed ventures in to the IM world, information overload. There is a recent post elsewhere in this forum by someone who is getting overloaded within days of jumping in, and it is these Gordon Gecko's of the IM world who are causing it. Sell the dream!

easy weight loss
easy money making
free travel
etc.

As long as there are those that keep dreaming they can have everything without hours invested and hard work, at least in the beginning. There will always be a market for theses false gurus. Kinda ironic... ingnorance selling knowledge to assist a group in finding the red herring.

This brings up two sayings

1. There is a sucker born every minute

2. Those who can, play. Those who can't, teach.

One more;

There are three types of people in this world,
Those who make things happen
Those that watch things happen, and
Those that wonder what just happen.

[MichaelHiles]

Great post Tim. Most people have no idea what to even look for. I remember seeing a copy of that idiotic crap put out by Don Lapre on the late night infomercials. It was at that moment, I realized that I needed to split my game from being strictly a corporate B2B tech solutions provider, and allowing the right hemisphere of my brain to get involved at the trench level of IM. If someone like Lapre can make $ packaging and selling crap, outdated information of the most rudimentary nature... someone like me who was actually on the ground level of much of the early years of internet development needs to get busy as well.

So by day, I sell gigantic application solutions. By night, I concoct nefarious, street level IM hustles that actually provide value to the end user.

[Christie Love]

Tim,

I'm sure this happens somewhere in the internet world, but please do not judge all writers. Anyone who has used my copywriting services can honestly tell anyone that I'm very thorough in my work by asking all my clients to fill out a quite extensive questionnaire to guide me in their project.

The completed questionnaire allows me to get a full idea of my customer's product as well as provides me with a feel of their personality so I'm able write in my client's voice. The rest is my own research provided by information forwarded from my client.

I don't deny this form of ghostwritting you're talking about happens, but just please do not disregard those writers who actually take their work seriously.

One more thing, any good writer will tell you that you don't have to be an expert to write about a particular topic. Being successful evolves around research, research, and research. It's kind of like hiring an attorney to represent you in court. In most cases, your lawyer wasn't actually present at the time of the incident, but he/she can fight your case much better than you could, by yourself.

So, it's ok to rant. Just remember to make it clear that this trend does not involve every writer.

[jjpmarketing]

I honestly don't care who writes the material. I have the same opinion as others... if it works it doesn't matter who wrote it. Of course I don't spend a lot of money on ebooks... and when I did early on... I rarely spent more than a few bucks. I never spent what I couldn't afford to lose. During the course learning via "hard knocks" you learn who to trust and who not to trust for quality valuable content regardless if they outsourced its creation or not. You also learn to sniff out BS.

But there are those few who are trying to ruin it for us all by scamming and ripping off all their customers. All I can say is that if you are new to this industry, then your best bet is to look for free info on Forums, Blogs, YouTube, etc. from known reputable sources... that people that have been there and done that can verify as being good content.

On the flip side I have come across content that was for the most part total crap, but had one idea that made reading it worthwhile.

Of course this thread leads me to the big question...

I don't even know if anyone has asked it yet.

Tim...

When are you selling your coaching program or membership site? I am not asking this to be rude or flame you... but history has proven more times than not... that when someone gets on here with some rant about this or that... they are basically getting ready to launch a product or sell an ebook... or whatever the case may be.

So I hope you are not going to do that.

[LegitBlogger]

I wonder if there's anything anyone can do about it. There are now so many "gurus" coming out with information products that we know they don't do what they claim they do, but hey - almost everyone's doing it these days, gurus and nongurus. Thanks for the rant, nonetheless; at least you got it off your chest,

[Illumination]

I totally agree Tim! Down with those gurus! Give us their names and we'll burn them at the stake! :@

*ahem* But other than that, reading through this thread has made me question a lot of things about how I should go about doing things. I would appreciate feedback with some thoughts.

1. What is ok?

Ok, we know what is not ok. It's not ok to know nothing at all about a subject, then pass yourself off as an expert, get someone who knows nothing about the subject to help you write something which you claim is expert-advice.

But let's say, you put up a site about something. And you know nothing about the niche you are going into, but you're willing to learn. As the time goes by, you read and learn, and write. So I guess that it is ok, because you're not passing yourself off as an expert, and you are not charging any money... Right? So would it be bad to outsource your writing to someone who knows nothing about the subject, but they are going to conduct their research thoroughly and make sure the content is top notch?

Well, I think writing things is ok, as long as you don't claim that you are an expert when you are not, and that you're giving expert advice.

2. Is it ok to sell information products if you are not an expert?

Well, I guess you don't really have to be an expert in something to sell information about it. As long as you are selling good information, and you don't pass yourself off as an expert on a subject.

So, what about people who take PLR products, and repackage them for sale? Most of the time, we probably don't even know where those PLR products came from, so the info in those products might even be rubbish if someone wrote it without thinking. So I think maybe it would be ok to sell PLR products as long as you check it thoroughly to confirm that the information in the product is of good quality and everything is correct. And I think the big picture is that you shouldn't pass yourself off as an expert when you are not... What does everyone else think?

3. What is an expert?
How do you define the word expert? Is it a person who is at the top of their field? A person who know more information about the subject that the average person? Or a person who knows more about the subject than the average person in your neighbourhood? When can you label yourself as an expert?

Well, thinking about it right now, I think that a person cannot rightly or truly label himself as an expert as it is a subjective term. So can I safely say that you become an expert when people consider you to be one? But then it brings about another question. If some people consider you to be an expert, but other people who know more about the subject than you do not consider you an expert, are you still an expert? What % of people have to consider you to be an expert before you are truly an expert?

If it is so, then I think there are varying levels of being an expert. You can be your home expert. You can be the neighbourhood expert, or even just the expert on your community or forum. But just to be safe, I wouldn't pass myself off as an expert. If you are highly knowledgable about an area, and have proven it to others rightly, then it need not be said...

[Powertreb]

Well, I'm what you would call a senior level newbie, or to put it better...not a Freshman, but studying for my IM "mid-terms" in my Sophomore year.

The only book I have ever purchased was Chris Rempel's Lazy Affiliate. Which was good by the way. Otherwise I have always stayed away from outright purchasing of various products.

I belong to lots of IM email lists. I get info all the time. I download every Freebie and read every tip I get.

My advice to newbies is this:

• There are lots of freebies out there.
• Most, if not all of the "IM secrets" out there are simply re-written strategies that you can get for free from all sorts of sources such as the bonuses you get just for signing up to someone's newsletter.
• Join Cody Moya's list. For God's sake, don't actually buy anything from him. But I get TONS & TONS of PLR content and all kinds of bonuses from Cody Moya's list. He offers many, many products for download. It's free for the first month, but $97 each month thereafter.
• I just sign up for the free month, download his offers, and then cancel the subscription before the first month is over.
• I've collected over 8 GB of PLR articles, ebooks, and software from Cody without paying a dime.
• The basics are all over the web and free for anyone that has a keyboard and access to Google.
• Forums like Warrior, Webmaster World, Digital Point, and ABestWeb are great for REAL information from experts who are doing it hands on. And forums give you access to the most current topics.
• Honestly, some of the ebooks you may actually buy can contain outdated strategies that will actually pull you DOWN in the rankings.

Combining all these things together, you can learn more than any single course or product will ever offer.

And it will all be free! Or almost free.

I am taking Kevin Riley's Traffic Generation workshop right now. It cost me $30. That's it!

I have gained more from that $30 than I have by reading all the free stuff I've collected. And that free stuf is what most of the high-priced products are based on.

That right there tells me that most of these high-ticket IM products are a waste of money.

Anyway, that's what this 1st semester Sophomore has to add.

[NicheDiary.com]

I always knew this was going on.

We should probably only buy video presentations and seminars IMHO