Had a Lawyer call me about a site I own! Need Your Advice.

99 replies
Well I just got off the phone with a lawyer that represents a company. Its for a site I have that was a wordpress blog with ebay listings on it. The problem is that the domain contains a name they now have a tradmark on.

I had to explain to him the whole thing on how you make money with ebay etc and that I didnt actually sell the products myself. I guess they are making fake products now and selling them on ebay and thats why its an issue now.

He is going to send me a letter stating we talked about this and I am to remove the site and transfer the domain to the company.

Has anyone ever had this happen to them and is it true that you have to give up your site and hand it over? I can understand removing the site but the domain name should still be in my ownership right? I no long use the site anymore but it was still live until today.

Just wanted your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Jason
#advice #call #lawyer #question #site
  • Profile picture of the author Steve Mount
    I'm not a lawyer in the least bit, but if you can prove that you owned the domain before they created the product, wouldn't it be their responsibility to BUY it from you if they wanted it?

    You can't be forced to just hand it over.... that's ridiculous
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    • Profile picture of the author KirkMcD
      Originally Posted by Steve Mount View Post

      You can't be forced to just hand it over.... that's ridiculous
      You can always fight it.

      How many thousands of dollars do you have lying around that you can spare for lawyers fees?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mrs S
      I would agree with Steve - if you had the domain before they had the trademark then surely you can't be forced to hand it over. I'd try and get some legal advice yourself - after all if your site is making you money it should be worth it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
      No one can take the domain name from you. That is your property. I am no lawyer, but this sounds fishy.

      I'm sure you don't want to go to court over this, but like the above poster said, it's ridiculous...

      -Christian
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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
        Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer View Post

        No one can take the domain name from you. That is your property. I am no lawyer, but this sounds fishy.

        I'm sure you don't want to go to court over this, but like the above poster said, it's ridiculous...

        -Christian
        Yes they can if it infringes on their trademark. They do this through ICAAN laws. It happens all the time and yes this is real.


        Frank Bruno
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    • Profile picture of the author AlexKaplo
      Originally Posted by Steve Mount View Post

      You can't be forced to just hand it over.... that's ridiculous
      I agree... It would not hurt to call up a lawyer and just ask for some quick advice, if they are nice they will sometimes give you some quick informative information.

      Good Luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author Texson5
      Originally Posted by Steve Mount View Post

      I'm not a lawyer in the least bit, but if you can prove that you owned the domain before they created the product, wouldn't it be their responsibility to BUY it from you if they wanted it?

      You can't be forced to just hand it over.... that's ridiculous

      Good advise, I was going to post the same.

      Jess
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
    Well I dont care cause I dont really use the domain anymore but I just wanted to know if its a scare tactic that they are trying to push.

    They thought I was actually selling the product itself and didnt even know about the ability to promote stuff with ebay without selling them. I no longer work ebay sites but have them up and running still. I just wasnt expecting to get this call I guess lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
    Its trademarkoutlet.com.....they didnt tell me when they had the trademark but he said since now its trademarked so that led me to believe they are trying to get all the sites with their name in it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Its trademarkoutlet.com.....they didnt tell me when they had the trademark but he said since now its trademarked so that led me to believe they are trying to get all the sites with their name in it.
      I agree with the warriors who advised that you get your own legal counsel to be sure on this one. They can prevent you using their trademark in your content, but taking the domain name because they trademarked the name is sketchy turf at best.

      You could request to have a copy of their trademark documentation sent to you to verify their claim.

      You can also perform at least a preliminary search at http://uspto.gov/

      If you owned the domain before they regisstered the trademark, then you have at least some potential leverage. But again, it would be best to consult your own legal counsel.
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  • Profile picture of the author Spiritjoy
    Hi, Lawyers "Legal liars" are known to feed on the ignorance of those who do not know the law. Judges make decisions NOT lawyers. Believe nothing they say until a judge says so. I am speaking from experience with these matters
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Sawyer
      This is absolutely correct. Lawyers do not have legal authority at all!

      A lawyer can't take anything from you, only the legal system can.

      Don't do anything that he tells you...at least until he provides proof. Then again, this doesn't justify that he can take away your domain!

      -Christian
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    • Profile picture of the author grumpyb
      [quote=Spiritjoy;599241]Hi, Lawyers "Legal liars" are known to feed on the ignorance of those who do not know the law.

      They dont want to go to court either so its sometimes a game where they win by Intimidation.

      Dont just roll over and give in Stand up to them. You have done nothing wrong here and what they are talking about is a commercial matter not a moral or ethical matter.

      There could be a dollar for you here so if you dont need the domaine make a "without prejudice" offer to sell the domaine to them for a fee.

      DONT JUST GIVE IT AWAY FOR NOTHING WITHOUT AN ARGUMENT

      and you dont need to employ a lawyer to do this
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    • Profile picture of the author David
      Originally Posted by Spiritjoy View Post

      Hi, Lawyers "Legal liars" are known to feed on the ignorance of those who do not know the law. Judges make decisions NOT lawyers. Believe nothing they say until a judge says so. I am speaking from experience with these matters
      Amen to your reply brother

      I have a friend who told me that some MBA curriculum states that a business person, any business person Should:

      be well versed in all tactics moral and immoral, legal and illegal

      ... supposedly that's to help you be able to take a punch
      because if you are successful, someone is going to take a swing at you

      you knock who ever is number one out of their position and they're going to fight back (and they might not play by your rules)

      I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice but it sounds to me like the guy is hoping you're unaware of your rights and if he can get you to give it to him, he'll take it from you.

      lawyers are legal liars

      I love that phrase... thanks spiritjoy
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
    It started as a cartoon overseas and now is a kids game. It was real popular with kids and I am not sure when they had it trademarked. Either way if they want it they can have it but you would think they would at least know how we are working the domains online.

    He didnt even know about being able to promote ebay items without having to sell them. At first when he was talking about it I thought maybe they wanted to buy the domain not tell me that if I dont remove it I will be filed against lol.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Mount
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Either way if they want it they can have it but you would think they would at least know how we are working the domains online.
      Oh... well then why are we having this discussion? :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
        Originally Posted by Steve Mount View Post

        Oh... well then why are we having this discussion? :p
        Because they still can take legal action against me from what he said. He just had to get my store first and I will be notified in the mail of what they want to do. I just wanted to see if anyone has ever gone through this or had this happen to them before.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bishop81
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Either way if they want it they can have it but you would think they would at least know how we are working the domains online.
      In that case, do you have any other domains you don't care about?
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
    Jason,

    You need to talk to an attorney. Just because someone has a trademark does NOT give them the right to simply *take* your domain. If it's worth something to them they should pay for it. Period.

    In the meantime you could simply take the page off the web. Remember, it's THEIR responsibility to prove you are disrupting commerce and blatantly infringing on their trademark (which it certainly seems like you are not).

    Pick your battles, yes. But don't bend over because some attorney calls you up with an empty threat.

    Ken

    P.S. Also, make them send you something in writing to make sure they are actually attorneys. Sometimes site owners will *pretend* to be attorneys over the phone....not common but it does happen.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    "Ummm yeah... uhh hi.... you know, we can simply settle this like real men by you acting like a business person and making me an offer to simply buy it..."

    worked for me once... a company called Poet Software had a trademark on a product name they owned called Fast Object. I happened to own the domain, and was publishing a blog on object oriented programming. This attorney called me up all pissy about their trademark and I simply said, "look, we're businesspeople here.... your client is going to spend lots of cash trying to get the domain from me in court, and I will simply sell it to you for a few thousand less than what that would cost... with no guarantee that you will prevail..."

    They bought it from me for many, many $$
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    Give up the domain. Period.

    A retainer for a good lawyer for a TM case can be 20 grand or more. Do you have it? Is it worth it?

    If you really feel strongly about it, consult with an attorney and they will give you a better idea of where you stand.

    Even if these people really don't have a claim- they can still sue you. Even though you win, you get to spend tens of thousands on legal fees.

    Don't mess around especially if you agreed to do this. Either consult an attorney ASAP if you really want to fight, or just hand it over.

    Chances are, it's better just to move on to other things and be thankful you got a call instead of a suit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Give up the domain. Period.

      A retainer for a good lawyer for a TM case can be 20 grand or more. Do you have it? Is it worth it?

      If you really feel strongly about it, consult with an attorney and they will give you a better idea of where you stand.

      Even if these people really don't have a claim- they can still sue you. Even though you win, you get to spend tens of thousands on legal fees.

      Don't mess around especially if you agreed to do this. Either consult an attorney ASAP if you really want to fight, or just hand it over.

      Chances are, it's better just to move on to other things and be thankful you got a call instead of a suit.

      That's the kind of thinking that allows this bullying to prevail in the first place. I remember reading a similar thread on DP where the poster called every bluff of the "attorney" and ended up doing OK in the end. I'm not saying that will happen all the time, but I wouldn't budge until I see proof, until I've had an appointment with my own attorney, and until I've had a very serious discussion with these people. Don't just bend over and take it.
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      • Profile picture of the author LB
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        That's the kind of thinking that allows this bullying to prevail in the first place. I remember reading a similar thread on DP where the poster called every bluff of the "attorney" and ended up doing OK in the end. I'm not saying that will happen all the time, but I wouldn't budge until I see proof, until I've had an appointment with my own attorney, and until I've had a very serious discussion with these people. Don't just bend over and take it.
        Have you been sued? Have you spent thousands on legal fees?

        I have.

        Not fun.

        I'm guessing most of the people here yelling "fight!" haven't either.

        If he's asking this kind of thing on a forum, then chances are he does not have the legal resources to fight this sort of thing. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even talked to this guy- he would have just said, "talk to my attorney" and then given him his number.

        Well, I just checked out their site and you can actually buy TradeMarkOutlet.com for $4,997

        TrademarkOutlet.com is FOR SALE at TheNameStore.com. Trademark Outlet in Legal Services domain name category.

        Also, if you read the About Us page, it says nothing about them being associated with the Trademark process... not to mention, if you click on the Trademark Registration link, it says: No Search Results Found.

        Here's the About Us page:

        "Web Inceptions, Inc. is based in San Diego, California, originally founded in 1998. Our company specializes in the acquisition, development, and sale of generic keyword rich high quality .INFO and .COM domain names, building them into useful resources for web users. By developing useful, informative web sites, our sites attract targeted traffic for our advertising partners and those who purchase our fully developed web sites.

        ...


        Many of our developed and undeveloped domain names are available for sale. Details on purchasing domain names can be found at our main catalog site: TheNameStore.com
        "

        Yea, it sounds like they certainly do specialize in the acquisition of domains by scaring people into thinking they will be sued if they don't hand over their domains...

        Just my views on their operation after looking at thier website, I'm no lawyer, so don't quote me on my opinions...

        Jared
        I don't think that's the actual domain...I think he was saying the domain in question is [trademark]outlet.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
          Originally Posted by LB View Post

          I don't think that's the actual domain...I think he was saying the domain in question is [trademark]outlet.com
          yea, nevermind, apparently I misunderstood...

          Jason, TrademarkOutlet.com isn't the company that contacted you is it?

          Sorry for the confusion...
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        • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
          Originally Posted by LB View Post

          Have you been sued? Have you spent thousands on legal fees?

          I have.

          Not fun.

          I'm guessing most of the people here yelling "fight!" haven't either.

          If he's asking this kind of thing on a forum, then chances are he does not have the legal resources to fight this sort of thing. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even talked to this guy- he would have just said, "talk to my attorney" and then given him his number.



          I don't think that's the actual domain...I think he was saying the domain in question is [trademark]outlet.com
          Yes I have, and I lost. That doesn't mean I wouldn't fight next time around. I know that there are many steps involved before you are required to spend money getting an attorney on retainer. Most cases like this are settled before anyone steps foot in a courtroom.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
          Originally Posted by LB View Post

          Have you been sued? Have you spent thousands on legal fees?

          I have.

          Not fun.

          I'm guessing most of the people here yelling "fight!" haven't either.

          If he's asking this kind of thing on a forum, then chances are he does not have the legal resources to fight this sort of thing. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even talked to this guy- he would have just said, "talk to my attorney" and then given him his number.
          I'm one of the ones yelling "fight" and YES I've been sued and spent a lot of $$ on attorneys.

          The fact is that *most* cases like this never end up in court. Period. Most of them are a simple "Cease and Desist" letter sent to the site owner by an attorney.

          Let's not kid ourselves. The company who feels it's being infringed upon does *not* want to spend thousands on legal fees either.

          Besides, any competent trademark attorney would need to see hard evidence of blatant infringement, up to and including a loss of business as a result of the infringement.

          Sorry but I just don't see that in this case.

          Do I think he should consult an attorney - or have one at the ready? YES. And he doesn't need a big-time trademark attorney in his pocket.

          I've successfully defended complaints like this for a couple hundred bucks spent on competent paper-pushing. Admittedly, the difference was I wanted to keep the domains and Jason does not.

          Anyway, my .02.

          Ken
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          • Profile picture of the author LB
            Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

            I'm one of the ones yelling "fight" and YES I've been sued and spent a lot of $$ on attorneys.

            The fact is that *most* cases like this never end up in court. Period. Most of them are a simple "Cease and Desist" letter sent to the site owner by an attorney.

            Let's not kid ourselves. The company who feels it's being infringed upon does *not* want to spend thousands on legal fees either.

            Besides, any competent trademark attorney would need to see hard evidence of blatant infringement, up to and including a loss of business as a result of the infringement.

            Sorry but I just don't see that in this case.

            Do I think he should consult an attorney - or have one at the ready? YES. And he doesn't need a big-time trademark attorney in his pocket.

            I've successfully defended complaints like this for a couple hundred bucks spent on competent paper-pushing. Admittedly, the difference was I wanted to keep the domains and Jason does not.

            Anyway, my .02.

            Ken
            Ken,

            I think we're on the same page. I told him that if he wants to fight the issue then he needs to consult an attorney.

            There are people here telling him to just ignore it or ask for money...which may make things much worse if they actually have a claim.

            Many sites haven't even generated a couple hundred bucks so the cost of even a legal letter isn't worth it. If they actually do file suit, they probably are looking to settle but at that point you will most likely have to hire an attorney to file an answer to their suit and possibly a counterclaim and that will be much more than a couple hundred bucks.

            In short, the answer to this legal question is the same as the answer to every legal question on this forum- talk to a lawyer.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Being sued isn't fun - or cheap.

          However, simply giving up on the word of a faceless phone call is just silly.

          Contact an attorney to at least find out what your rights are. That doesn't cost 20 grand

          If these people are legit, ask them to speed up the process by making you an offer. Odds are they want to avoid further legal escalation, but they figure they will see if you relent first. That's the cheapest way for them.

          Finally, as was stated in another post - a MARKETING forum is a poor place for legal advice - especially mine!

          Mike

          Originally Posted by LB View Post

          Have you been sued? Have you spent thousands on legal fees?

          I have.

          Not fun.

          I'm guessing most of the people here yelling "fight!" haven't either.

          If he's asking this kind of thing on a forum, then chances are he does not have the legal resources to fight this sort of thing. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even talked to this guy- he would have just said, "talk to my attorney" and then given him his number.



          I don't think that's the actual domain...I think he was saying the domain in question is [trademark]outlet.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    First, get them to put it in writing.
    Second consult a lawyer. message boards are very poor places to get legal advice.

    If I gave up a domain every time a lawyer sent me an email or called I would have lost dozens of domains. Most of the time they are paid to issue threats and see what they can shake loose.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Brad Gosse View Post

      First, get them to put it in writing.
      Second consult a lawyer. message boards are very poor places to get legal advice.

      If I gave up a domain every time a lawyer sent me an email or called I would have lost dozens of domains. Most of the time they are paid to issue threats and see what they can shake loose.
      Exactly what I was thinking.

      Any good lawyer will tell you to ALWAYS get it in writing.

      As of now there is no proof that they called you, unless either party said the call was being recorded.

      They may have a legitimate case, but right now it sounds odd.

      If they pursue it, get a lwayer. Even if you "simply transfer the domain", what's to stop them for coming after you later, claiming you owe them something for anything you've made off it so far?

      In fact, by giving them the domain without question, you may be admitting guilt (in their eyes).

      Best of luck and hang in there.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    What business you have talking to lawyers? If a lawyer calls you
    then you give him/her the number for your lawyer. Then you'll know
    if they have a case.

    I once got an email with a similar threat, but I just ignored it because
    I didn't own the domain anymore. Never heard from them again.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
      Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

      Well, I just checked out their site and you can actually buy TradeMarkOutlet.com for $4,997

      TrademarkOutlet.com is FOR SALE at TheNameStore.com. Trademark Outlet in Legal Services domain name category.

      Also, if you read the About Us page, it says nothing about them being associated with the Trademark process... not to mention, if you click on the Trademark Registration link, it says: No Search Results Found.

      Here's the About Us page:

      "Web Inceptions, Inc. is based in San Diego, California, originally founded in 1998. Our company specializes in the acquisition, development, and sale of generic keyword rich high quality .INFO and .COM domain names, building them into useful resources for web users. By developing useful, informative web sites, our sites attract targeted traffic for our advertising partners and those who purchase our fully developed web sites.

      ...


      Many of our developed and undeveloped domain names are available for sale. Details on purchasing domain names can be found at our main catalog site: TheNameStore.com
      "

      Yea, it sounds like they certainly do specialize in the acquisition of domains by scaring people into thinking they will be sued if they don't hand over their domains...

      Just my views on their operation after looking at thier website, I'm no lawyer, so don't quote me on my opinions...

      Jared

      Sorry Jared, I meant the name that they have trademarked is in my domain with outlet behind it. its not actually trademarkoutlet.com. Anyway thanks for everyones advice. I will wait and see how they respond to what I told them and go from there.

      its just not every day that you get someone calling you saying your in violation of a trademark. I just think that they should purchase the domain rather than tell me that they own it now cause they decided to make a product with the cartoon.

      Thanks for all the input,
      Jason
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

      Well, I just checked out their site and you can actually buy TradeMarkOutlet.com for $4,997

      TrademarkOutlet.com is FOR SALE at TheNameStore.com. Trademark Outlet in Legal Services domain name category.

      Also, if you read the About Us page, it says nothing about them being associated with the Trademark process... not to mention, if you click on the Trademark Registration link, it says: No Search Results Found.

      Here's the About Us page:

      "Web Inceptions, Inc. is based in San Diego, California, originally founded in 1998. Our company specializes in the acquisition, development, and sale of generic keyword rich high quality .INFO and .COM domain names, building them into useful resources for web users. By developing useful, informative web sites, our sites attract targeted traffic for our advertising partners and those who purchase our fully developed web sites.

      ...


      Many of our developed and undeveloped domain names are available for sale. Details on purchasing domain names can be found at our main catalog site: TheNameStore.com
      "

      Yea, it sounds like they certainly do specialize in the acquisition of domains by scaring people into thinking they will be sued if they don't hand over their domains...

      Just my views on their operation after looking at thier website, I'm no lawyer, so don't quote me on my opinions...

      Jared

      Thanks for bringing some facts to the table Jared.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
        Originally Posted by Nathan Hangen View Post

        Thanks for bringing some facts to the table Jared.
        LOL... yea some good ole misleading facts because, trademarkoutlet.com isn't even the company that contacted Jason... lol

        Sorry, my bad
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnathan
    1. Make sure he is a real lawyer. There are many scams on the internet.
    2. If you are at all worried -- standard disclaimer -- get a lawyer/speak with one. (I'm not a lawyer, and recommend you get one if it really concerns you, etc, etc).
    3. Generally speaking, unless he actually serves you with documents, it is more or less a scare tactic. It is interesting that this seems to be coming out of California, because it seems a lot of lawyers from California use this tactic. If they did actually have a case, they would normally start off with a cease and desist letter from a reputable law firm.

    Personally -- from what you've stated -- I feel that this is a bit of a scam/scare tactic (I have seen it before). In light of what Jared posted, it seems even more so.

    Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

    Well I just got off the phone with a lawyer that represents a company. Its for a site I have that was a wordpress blog with ebay listings on it. The problem is that the domain contains a name they now have a tradmark on.

    I had to explain to him the whole thing on how you make money with ebay etc and that I didnt actually sell the products myself. I guess they are making fake products now and selling them on ebay and thats why its an issue now.

    He is going to send me a letter stating we talked about this and I am to remove the site and transfer the domain to the company.

    Has anyone ever had this happen to them and is it true that you have to give up your site and hand it over? I can understand removing the site but the domain name should still be in my ownership right? I no long use the site anymore but it was still live until today.

    Just wanted your thoughts on this.

    Thanks,
    Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author mlandmark
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Trademark infringement claims usually do not prevail in cases of prior use.

    IIRC Monster Cables recently learned this lesson in court when they tried to sue some local yokel business that had Monster in its name. They were going to lose the case and decided to retreat from the action IIRC.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paule123
    If you want to make sure!

    Get legal advice!

    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author CmdrStidd
      Originally Posted by LB View Post

      Have you been sued? Have you spent thousands on legal fees?

      I have.

      Not fun.

      I'm guessing most of the people here yelling "fight!" haven't either.

      If he's asking this kind of thing on a forum, then chances are he does not have the legal resources to fight this sort of thing. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even talked to this guy- he would have just said, "talk to my attorney" and then given him his number.
      I have been sued for trademark infringement before and I did have to take it pretty far. I laid out the cash back when I owned my own printing business so I know what it is like. The fact of the matter is that you just don't want to lay down and give in on things like this without the proper research first. It does not cost you no 20 grand to do the research and check things out. See below for a way to do this extremely cost effective.

      Originally Posted by Paule123 View Post

      If you want to make sure!

      Get legal advice!

      Paul
      I agree. The first step is to get legal advice. Start by calling your local Bar Association and asking for a referral. Most Bar Associations have a deal with the attorneys in their area that on referrals, they take a simple fee. It might be something like $30 for the first 30 minute consultation. However, it gives you a chance to see what your rights are and where you stand on this.

      Never ever give up anything that you have worked hard on to anyone without first checking to see what your rights are first.

      Oh, and just so you know, on my case of trademark infringement, the plaintiffs case was dismissed and THEY were ordered to pay ALL my legal fees for my defense. My lawyer even incorporated my "loss of income to appear in court" as a legal fee that they had to pay. Now, different states do things differently and your case may vary but I just thought you should know.
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  • Profile picture of the author ptone
    It really boils down to this:
    What do you want to gain from this situation? You want them to pay you for the domain? How much?

    Now you have a starting point. Call an attorney and ask him what his fees are. Calculate how much your time is worth on an hourly basis and how much time you plan to spend fighting this.

    Add up the attorney fees and your hourly worth and how much time you plan to spend on this so you know how much this is going to cost you. Now, subtract that from how much money you want to make from this.

    Is it worth it?

    My guess is HELL NO!

    On the other hand, you could spend a few minutes and ask them to send you in writing that if you transfer the domain name to them, they agree not to take any further legal action against you. After you receive that, transfer the domain and get on with your life! After all, you said this domain means nothing to you anymore.

    If you are unsure if its a scam artist, simply call the corporation and ask to speak to their legal department and ask them about it...tell them you want to verify that the person that called actually worked for their company.
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  • Profile picture of the author yzal
    Do you guys have anything like the citizens advice bureau in the US? that would be my first port of call.

    To me it seem peculiar that they would ring you with a threat... any legals issues that have arisen in my life have been via regular post. I would think twice before accepting what they said... it is easier to manipulate people using NLP over the phone than by a letter so they might just be trying to **** you.

    Having said that, I'm also one who dislikes parting with hard earned cash unnecessarily. I would push it as hard as I can on my own, but if it came down to paying $20,000 for a 'possibility' of winning or giving up the domain, then I would agree with LB and chuck in the towel. Unless you are a millionaire I see no point in risking your cash to win a battle for the little guy!

    I wish you lots of luck and hope everything turns out for the best

    Adam
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  • Profile picture of the author IMDimWit
    Echoing some of the prior comments, once you receive the communication from the attorney, your best bet is to contact you own legal counsel in you have an interest in retaining the domain name. In the meantime, however, you may consider having the attorney who contacted you to provide you with any information that forms the basis of his claim (in the spirit of informal resolution).

    Also, you do not have to give him your entire site. Worst case scenario, you may have to relinquish the domain name and remove any references on the site that would constitute copyright infringement. You can always purchase a new domain name and point it to the site.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Certainly talk to a lawyer, but it all does come down to money. The company has determined a "budget" that they are willing to spend on legal expenses to pursue trademark cases -- HOWEVER, this is dead overhead in your regard because you aren't actually siphoning off sales or anything like that. Therefore, someone has to make the financial decision of ROI to pursue you for a relatively "non-essential" domain URL. In my own case, the domain was the exact name of the product - BUT even so, I was using it in a non-related fashion, and I also had prior use established.

    The "attorney" is getting paid to bring resolution. No attorney actually WANTS to go to court. That's costly, messy AND could result in a decision swaying to the other side - AND COULD even result in the award of the costs of legal fees to defend!!!

    They want to broker a deal, get paid a percentage, and move on.

    I would caution against setting a starting price.

    In any negotiation, the person who sets the starting price relinquishes the right to accept or reject. You become the one "asking" if you name first price. Make them set the price so that you are in the decision seat of "yay" or "nay".

    You can negotiate this on your own. When you reach a settlement price, process of transfer, mutual indemnifications, etc... make their counsel send you a draft of the agreement - again putting you into the driver's seat of approving the deal.

    If anyone is out front "negotiating" for me, they are a trained parrot saying exactly what I want said the way I want it said for the purpose of "playing the game". Get a buddy to "represent" you, but make sure that they don't claim to be an attorney - just a business advisor. That way, if negotiations go south, you have a one-time "reset" to try and bring the deal back to the table by claiming that your "representative" wasn't actually representing your real postion, and now you can renegotiate an amicable arrangement with the knowledge of the prior discussion's parameters.

    I've negotiated many, many deals, some for millions of dollars - everything from venture capital infusions to outright mergers and acquisitions of companies.

    DO NOT ROLL OVER.

    If you do. Stop any business activity and go get a job. You're not cut out for real business.

    If you aren't being sued, you're doing it wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author BJ Min
    what if you registered the DOMAIN name BEFORE those guys
    trademarked their name...

    man...this sucks...i did hear that those big companies can
    take your domain though...

    man....i wish all the best to you though...
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    • Profile picture of the author ptone
      Originally Posted by BJ Min View Post

      what if you registered the DOMAIN name BEFORE those guys
      trademarked their name...

      man...this sucks...i did hear that those big companies can
      take your domain though...

      man....i wish all the best to you though...
      A good case study on this can be found here:

      Nissan Computer Corporation

      There is a link at the top of the home page that describes his fight with the Nissan Motor Corporation.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I've had soem experiences like this..

    1) I had a domain name that used a common industry term in it. It was originaly a trademark of a large and and very well known 'high-end' fashion/jewelry company. They leaned on me (oh, it was indirectly related to ebay!).. I did a trademark search, and it turned out they hadn't renewed the trademark in over 10 years. So I pointed out to them that they not only no longer held the trademark, but they had let the term slip into common and generic usage over the years. Oh, and that I was considering filing for the trademark myslef, since it seemed to have been abandoned. I then said all further correspondnece was to go through my attorney. I pointed out that he was an immediate family member so I would not have to deal with any legal fees... My attorney worked out an acceptable arrangement

    2) I built a site for promoting a very well known marketers product the day it was launched. It was a variation of the product name - now a common affiliate tactic. A few weeks later, I get a call from my hosting company regarding this domain. But the thing was, it was not my hosting company The rep had a distinctive scottish accent and sounded exactly like the marketer (I've watched videos of his - I recognized the voice within about 15 seconds).. He was trying "social engineer" my godaddy logon details! I hung up on him, and 10 minutes later I wished I had called his bluff and actually talked with him some. I missed a great opportunity

    my points? it could be someone else who wants your domain. Or it might be legit, but don't assume they will drag you to court or even want to. Simply explain you built the site in good faith, before they had the trademark, that there was no ill-intent, that's it's obvious you are not a cyber squatter, and if they want it then you are willing to hand it over to them.. they simply have to cover your time/expenses you have put into it.

    disclaimer: you should consult an attorney for legal advice...
    Signature

    -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Luc
    There's a lot of advice going on here, and I can see that it's coming from lots of different countries with different legal laws. So what it comes down to is seeking legal advice to a lawyer near you.

    These types of cases at least in the USA, are pretty expensive. However, some states offer a state lawyer bar where you can seek your first consultation for an extremely cheap price, so you may want to look into that if you're in the USA. I didn't know until my lawyer friend referred me.

    If the other side already found legal counsel, then of course they are pretty serious about suing you. But I think you need to seek a lawyer to figure out if this is real or not; because some of these guys are not real; but some are, so you need to figure it out.

    * This should not be taken for legal advice.
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    Stephen Luc

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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by Stephen Luc View Post

      If the other side already found legal counsel, then of course they are pretty serious about suing you.
      not really.. they want 'resolution'.

      A lot of companies have some jr staffer lawyer who does nothing but this sort of thing, hunting down ebay auctions and web sites using their trademark and threatening them. it's just another day at the office for them. It's doubtful they hired an attorney just for this one person..
      Signature

      -Jason

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      • Profile picture of the author Marty S
        I had this happen to me last year. The big machine was Costco, and I had a domain name using a twist of theirs. The premise of it was to be VERY complimentary to them, but I never got around to doing anything with the site.

        However, my host put those ads on the unused domain and Costco lawyers found out about it. They emailed me with basically the same warning as in the OP. They told me transfer the domain to them because of copyright. I didn't care too much about losing it, but if they wanted it, I suggested they give me an offer to transfer it right now, otherwise I will leave it as "under construction" until further notice. She said that was fine but will monitor any activity under the domain. I will likely just let it expire - I got too many other battles rather than getting slapped around by Costco legal team.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        **DISCLAIMER** DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME

        If it were me, this it the email that I would send them in reply.

        Dear Overpriced Shark:

        Go screw yourself.

        Sincerely,

        Somebody Who Doesn't Give A Sh*t
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          **DISCLAIMER** DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME

          If it were me, this it the email that I would send them in reply.

          Dear Overpriced Shark:

          Go screw yourself.

          Sincerely,

          Somebody Who Doesn't Give A Sh*t
          MAYBE.

          But, there's also a chance they DO have a legitimate claim.

          The point is not to just roll over without due process.

          Guess that's why it's so important to get qualified legal advice.

          ~Michael
          Signature

          "Ich bin en fuego!"
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      • Profile picture of the author Megas
        Yeah, don't fall for these scare tactics, if they want your site they have to pay for it.
        BTW If you can simply prove that you registered the dmain before they trademarked the name it's your intellectual property and they won't have a case.

        I'm not a lawyer but I do know they would have to send you an official cease and desist letter before they can take action and if there is no money being made off your site they can't sue you for much.
        I wouldn't worry much until you've seen proof, dates etc...
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        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          Originally Posted by Megas View Post

          Yeah, don't fall for these scare tactics, if they want your site they have to pay for it.
          BTW If you can simply prove that you registered the dmain before they trademarked the name it's your intellectual property and they won't have a case.

          I'm not a lawyer but I do know they would have to send you an official cease and desist letter before they can take action and if there is no money being made off your site they can't sue you for much.
          I wouldn't worry much until you've seen proof, dates etc...
          NOT TRUE!

          A bank in Ohio with an established name for over 100 years lost the right to use it name because another bank in the 90's opened in the same city and filed their trademark. Guess who got to keep the name and who did not.

          Any they don't have to send you crap to take you to court, once the case if filed the only thing you must get is the summons. Even if you don't receive the summons the case proceeds and you loose by default because you didn't show up.
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      • Profile picture of the author Stephen Luc
        Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

        not really.. they want 'resolution'.

        A lot of companies have some jr staffer lawyer who does nothing but this sort of thing, hunting down ebay auctions and web sites using their trademark and threatening them. it's just another day at the office for them. It's doubtful they hired an attorney just for this one person..
        You're right, that's true if it is a big company. Not all companies, have lawyers on retainer, especially small business owners. Would be nice if we all had jr staffer lawyers on our team, hah. Instead we get to pay someone 800-1200 just to talk to. Anyways, we can guess all we want, but it'd be good to talk to get it in writing and talk to a lawyer.
        Signature

        Stephen Luc

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  • Your best bet is always to speak to a lawyer if you are being threatened with legal action. They can decide whether the claims are frivolous or false, and draft you a response that puts a stop to that.

    If the threatened action is genuine and viable, they can help you act responsibly.

    But stick with someone who knows the law for advice. That's our advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
    A prime example of owning a domain before it was a trademark is Nissan.com

    The car company has been fighting the guy tooth and nail for years and have been shot down every single time. His last name happens to be Nissan

    Fight the good fight my friend, that is, if you have a case that you owned it before they trademarked anything.

    Best Regards,
    James
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    • Profile picture of the author crazyheart
      I'm not a lawyer but as an advice it is better if you have some proof of your ownership of the site.This will help you to fight for it and remain the authority in your hand.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    I once had a "lawyer" call me threatening to sue me if I didn't stop selling a certain item I was selling on eBay. He said he was calling from the law offices of "such & such" on behalf of a competitor of mine at the time.

    So I did my homework. I looked up the law offices of "such & such" - and it was a legit law office. Then I looked up my competitor's website and did a whois search. His address was in Canada - the law offices of "such & such" are in the United-States. This seems strange to me (but not too strange yet). Then I jot down the guys phone number from the whois to give him a call to make sure that he was actually the one that called the lawyer. As I'm writing down the number, I'm noticing that the number is very familiar to me. I check my phone log, and sure enough it's the same number as the "lawyer" that called me. This guy was pretending to be a lawyer. I call the number, ask for the name on the whois, and it's the "lawyer"! lol Busted!

    You just can't imagine the links some people will go, to snuff out their perceived competition.

    Now I have had some run ins w/ some real lawyers about domains w/ trademark names in them. And in every situation so far, they have been satisfied with me just shutting the website down. Most lawyers know that it's not cost effective from either side to pursue most of these cases, unless it's a top notch domain name.
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    • Profile picture of the author theverysmartguy
      Just wanted to let you know that something like that happened here in Alberta, Canada. Where a university student had a website named after the province premier.

      Well, lets just say that the premier now has the domain name. =)

      HOWEVER, this usually allow applies to actual names of people. If you had a site called Coca-Cola Global: Soft Drinks & Beverage Products (yes its taken, owned by Coca-Cola already) then that company could sue you and win. HOWEVER, if you had a domain like www.cokereviews.com then they could do nothing about it, or even www.cokeoutlet.com etc. They could try and take it to court, however, unless they can prove that that website is harming their business, then they would have no real case. Hell, you could even have a website that says something sucks, and then have it totally dedicated to the product and how it sucks, and they couldn't due anything about it.

      Basically what you should do is offer them a fair price for your site based off of the traffic you are already receiving. To be honest, if you are creating a product, and getting it trademarked or patented or whatever, they should have created the website ahead of time, just so things like this wont happen. Just like the politician should have done the same thing.

      I guess I could have summed this all up by saying this: If we couldn't use domain names like www.cabbage-patch-dolls-reviewed.com, then affiliate marketing would really take a hit. There are tons of sites out there that have a trademarked name in the title, and then something like reviewed, or reviews, or outlet, etc.

      Well, that is my 2 cents (or for you americans a penny and a half..hahaha, yea our dollar sucks)

      Ciao for now,

      Jeff
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      "Doing nothing is worse than doing it wrong."

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      • Profile picture of the author theverysmartguy
        Originally Posted by theverysmartguy View Post

        Just wanted to let you know that something like that happened here in Alberta, Canada. Where a university student had a website named after the province premier.

        Well, lets just say that the premier now has the domain name. =)

        HOWEVER, this usually only applies to actual names of people. If you had a site called Coca-Cola Global: Soft Drinks & Beverage Products (yes its taken, owned by Coca-Cola already) then that company could sue you and win. HOWEVER, if you had a domain like www.cokereviews.com then they could do nothing about it, or even www.cokeoutlet.com etc. They could try and take it to court, however, unless they can prove that that website is harming their business, then they would have no real case. Hell, you could even have a website that says something sucks, and then have it totally dedicated to the product and how it sucks, and they couldn't due anything about it.
        The Coke URL was supposed to show coke.com, interesting how it added in Anchor text automatically. Didn't know this forum would do that. =)
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Originally Posted by theverysmartguy View Post

        Just wanted to let you know that something like that happened here in Alberta, Canada. Where a university student had a website named after the province premier.

        Well, lets just say that the premier now has the domain name. =)

        HOWEVER, this usually allow applies to actual names of people. If you had a site called Coca-Cola Global: Soft Drinks & Beverage Products (yes its taken, owned by Coca-Cola already) then that company could sue you and win. HOWEVER, if you had a domain like www.cokereviews.com then they could do nothing about it, or even www.cokeoutlet.com etc. They could try and take it to court, however, unless they can prove that that website is harming their business, then they would have no real case. Hell, you could even have a website that says something sucks, and then have it totally dedicated to the product and how it sucks, and they couldn't due anything about it.

        Basically what you should do is offer them a fair price for your site based off of the traffic you are already receiving. To be honest, if you are creating a product, and getting it trademarked or patented or whatever, they should have created the website ahead of time, just so things like this wont happen. Just like the politician should have done the same thing.

        I guess I could have summed this all up by saying this: If we couldn't use domain names like www.cabbage-patch-dolls-reviewed.com, then affiliate marketing would really take a hit. There are tons of sites out there that have a trademarked name in the title, and then something like reviewed, or reviews, or outlet, etc.

        Well, that is my 2 cents (or for you americans a penny and a half..hahaha, yea our dollar sucks)

        Ciao for now,

        Jeff
        Very true what you say about using a name like cokereviews.com. There is a site that's been up for YEARS about Allstate Insurance. We all know how frigg'n rich Insurance company's are and they could not get this little site removed. lol .: Welcome : : Allstate Insurance Sucks : Index :.. The name says it all! lolz
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Jason, have you ever heard the term "contingency fee?"

    If this is at all shady, you might be the answer to some lawyer's prayers. Not only is there the chance to grab some serious local publicity...

    "Big company tries to bully little guy - and we won't let them!" asserted Joe Attorney, speaking on behalf of his client...

    Once you get whatever they decide to mail you, take the free consult with one of these pit bulls. Publicity plus a chance to split whatever they can recover for you in turning over the domain name? Priceless.

    Not legal advice, just food for thought...
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    The first thing you should do is to find out if the lawyer is legit. Have him give you the name of his law firm, then look it up and call it. If the lawyer is legit, then you know that someone is paying him. And if you're not doing anything w/ that website, then it would prablably be in your best interest to give it up. They will not persue you further, unless they somehow know that you have deep pockets.
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  • Profile picture of the author esr
    Is this America, or what??? Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but BULL!!!

    If you purchase something, just because someone decides to trademark the name, why would you have to give up the domain name, something you paid for and own?

    I'd do A LOT of research before I handed anything over to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Emailrevealer
    Please do not mistake this reply for giving legal advice but I would guess that before they would go to the expense of filing a lawsuit against you it is likely they will make you a cash offer for the name.

    HTH
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  • Profile picture of the author MicahF7
    I think that is the funniest thing!

    I received an email from, well I not sure if it was eBay or an attorney or what but it was regarding all the domain names I own with the work eBay in it... it said that I had to stop using them and that I was going to be fined or something, blah blah blah ( it was a while ago now so I don't remember exactly ) so I replied and said... No problem, if you want the domains I will gladly sale them to ebay for X amount of dollars and they can have them back no problem!

    Well, I was hoping for a sale but I never got an email back!

    I have not had any problems I still own them and everything is fine


    Thanks,

    Micah Rush


    <><
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  • Profile picture of the author giselle.benites
    Hi Jason,

    I'm so sorry that happened to you. But no...I don't really know anything about this. Good luck to you!

    Giselle
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Legal advice on forums is totally worthless. What people think the law should be - and what it is - are often quite different. So take answers here as opinions - not facts.

      Out of curiosity, I would look up their trademark (fast to do online) to see if the trademark pre-dates your domain registration. If the domain was registered first, I'd ask an attorney about it and might have him draft a letter offering to sell at a reasonable price.

      Don't know what you agreed to over the phone. Did you get his number and call back to make sure you were talking to someone at a law firm?
      Did you agree during that discussion to transfer the domain?

      Except for looking up the info I'd do nothing until I had something in writing by post or email from a lawyer representing that trademark.

      What I wouldn't do is waste time and money fighting to keep a domain I'm finished with and no longer use. If it were a long term highly profitable site or business, that would be different.

      kay
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      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    Imminent domain doesnt fly on the net. If you had the domain name for a substantial amount of time so it doesnt look like you picked it up because you heard of this company, then i'd call their bluff.

    If they want it, let them make you an offer, but dont just give it over to them
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Hearder
    My advice (and remember I am not a lawyer, or pretend to be one on TV) is to ignore the email. DO NOT RESPOND..

    If they are serious they can send you a registered letter to start you thinking about doing something.

    Most of these types of emails are simply scammers or hoping to get an domain name for real cheap..

    Just ignore them

    My 2c worth

    Bruce
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  • Profile picture of the author Habitat
    Sell them th domain you don't have to give it to them
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    So you took the site down already?

    If your referring to the particular toy I'm thinking of. You actually registered your domain name prior to this entity filing for 4 of their 5 Trade Marks. I've checked and all the other trademarked names where filed after you owned the domain name.

    So you are using a trademarked name if it's the one I am thinking of. PM me and I'll tell you.

    If I were you I'd tell them what another poster mentioned. Tell them you'd be happy to sell the domain name instead of them spending a lot of money in court.

    I see that they have a rather formidable group of company's developing this game for several platforms. It seems to me that if they where serious you would have just received certified mail with a cease and desist demand, not an intimidating phone call from a lawyer. They probably called you to scare you into giving them the domain without having to take you to court.

    Offer to sell them the domain name, if they don't bite tell them no problem. Let them take you to court and spend all the money trying to prove Trademark delusion. They have to first prove delusion of trademark before they can get infringement. I know the law allows up 5 years for some one to contest a trademark so you could even file papers to contest it, causing them to spend even more money! lol

    You could simply change the site to sell candles and then they can piss off. = )
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
    Wow what a turn out here. Well I looked up his number that he called me from and its listed as this:

    Illinois Natural Gas Company
    1773 Central St
    Evanston, IL 60201

    So now I am really confused lol....I am supposed to be getting something in the mail next week stating what we talked about etc. If I get this I will be taking it to a lawyer to get advice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Wow what a turn out here. Well I looked up his number that he called me from and its listed as this:

      Illinois Natural Gas Company
      1773 Central St
      Evanston, IL 60201

      So now I am really confused lol....I am supposed to be getting something in the mail next week stating what we talked about etc. If I get this I will be taking it to a lawyer to get advice.
      That's why you don't bend over and capitulate, or run to a lawyer every time someone sends an email or calls you up about a domain name. There are times to consult an attorney, but phone calls out of the blue and worthless emails aren't it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Wow what a turn out here. Well I looked up his number that he called me from and its listed as this:

      Illinois Natural Gas Company
      1773 Central St
      Evanston, IL 60201

      So now I am really confused lol....I am supposed to be getting something in the mail next week stating what we talked about etc. If I get this I will be taking it to a lawyer to get advice.
      You should call the number back, and tell them an employee of theirs is abusing their phone system, and explain what happened. That should get their full attention.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      Wow what a turn out here. Well I looked up his number that he called me from and its listed as this:

      Illinois Natural Gas Company
      1773 Central St
      Evanston, IL 60201

      So now I am really confused lol....I am supposed to be getting something in the mail next week stating what we talked about etc. If I get this I will be taking it to a lawyer to get advice.
      Hmmm....well that is interesting enough that their local law enforcement or the FBI might be interested in finding out about it, too. They love catching online scammers - makes their community service efforts into some good PR. LOL.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

      If I get this I will be taking it to a lawyer to get advice.
      You may be in luck:

      Jason Coomer

      Charles Runyan

      I gain nothing nor have any personal experience with them. Good luck, and let
      folks here know how it goes.
      Signature

      David

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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Originally Posted by Jason Zalesky View Post

    Has anyone ever had this happen to them and is it true that you have to give up your site and hand it over? I can understand removing the site but the domain name should still be in my ownership right? I no long use the site anymore but it was still live until today.
    If you are talking to a lawyer, you need a lawyer as well. Call your county Lawyer Referral Service - they can set you up with a half-hour consultation with a lawyer very cheaply. In my county it's $35 for a half-hour consultation with an experienced bar certified attorney.
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  • Profile picture of the author Noel2010
    I wish a lawyer would call me about some of the domain names I own.

    Of course, if this is real, you don't do anything until you get something in writing.

    In the meantime, why don't you start using the name to make some money? Selling it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Curtis007
      Bakugan has been around for a while (2006), so I doubt you registered the domain before the name was trademarked. If the lawyer turns out to be legit, I would just cease and desist and hand over the domain. It just isn't worth the time or headache. Move on to bigger and better things.
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  • Profile picture of the author thinkrich
    It's times like these you wished there was a www [dot] legaldepartmentforinternetmarketers

    ICANN performs *some* of these functions.

    Has anyone actually consulted with ICANN over a legal issue?

    Or does ICANN simply take gazillionz of bucks from everyone and do nothing?
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  • Profile picture of the author TerrieS
    Is the problem lie in owning the domain or using the domain? A passive aggressive person might consider just taking the site offline but retaining ownership.
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  • Profile picture of the author Popstar
    Unless you have a domain that's associated with a natural gas company, the call doesn't make much sense. Although I know of one case where a businessman had his brother make threatening legal calls to people. The brother worked for a Fortune 500 firm in the Legal Department and would file the legal paperwork for his brother free-of-charge.

    MichaelHiles has given you good negotiating advice. Trademark infringement cases can get expensive on both sides, not just yours.

    But if you decide to consult a lawyer, you don't need to pay anything for a 1/2-hour consultation. Find an experienced Intellectual Property attorney (not some general attorney who does divorces, general business law, and says they do trademark cases, too.)

    Trademark law is very specialized. If you consult a good IP attorney, they should give you a 1/2-hour initial consultation for free. Always ask before the consultation starts, though, to confirm that the initial call is free.

    If it isn't, find another IP attorney. You should never pay for that initial consultation.

    Most likely, you can find out what your options are in half an hour. If it sounds like the other side has a good case, you can always give up the domain. If not, the attorney will tell you how to handle it.

    Debbie
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Jason:

    I would consult a lawyer, but realize you're going to be in the fight of your life if you do fight this no matter whether you are right or wrong.

    I wish you luck, no matter what you decide.
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  • Profile picture of the author queenbuzzy
    I've had a couple of disputes: both trademark, servicemark, and copyright.

    I am no means a lawyer, but here's what I learned:

    Names, in and of themselves are really hard to trademark. Generally it's a logo, or a unique name like "google" that can be trademarked. Something that is associated specifically with that company, like the McDonald's arches. Madonna could never get her name trademarked. (Even though, ya'll probably know who I'm talking about.)

    Trademark infringement happens when there are businesses with similar names conducting similar services in the same area.

    If there was "Bob's House of Chicken" that was a fried chicken joint, and "Bob's house of Chickens" that was a slaughterhouse, there may not be cause to file a suit. One is a restaurant, one well, isn't, they're both geared to different audiences, (um, sort of) so they may be allowed to go on their merry ways.

    Again, I'm not a lawyer, this is just what I learned...

    When I lived in Michigan, I had to get BOTH a state trademark, and a national trademark. In Washington State they register your tradename when you get your business license...it all varies from state to state.

    It took me about two years and $2000, to get my trademark. So, if they have been at it that long, they should have contacted you during that time with a "cease and desist." Generally people are supposed to go the "C&D" route before filing suit. And, a phone call doesn't cut it. It HAS to be in writing.

    Now, of course, this all gets tricky because you're dealing with the Internet, and you don't have an area where you do business...it's all online. This is the issue that I'm having right now. My trademarked name is registered to someone in Russia, but since they're out of the US, it does me no good whatsoever. It's all about jurisdiction.

    And, also who has claims to the name beforehand. If you registered the name before they went into business, you do have a claim to it. It surprises me that they didn't contact you beforehand to try and buy your domain. It seems quite charlatan-esque of them to sneak around, get the trademark, and THEN contact you.

    If you don't care about owning the domain, then you can sell it to them for a fee. They cannot legally just tell you to give it to them...at the very least, they have to compensate you for the registration fee. That's the law...(as I was told) specific to domains though...they don't have to reimburse you for hosting.

    It seems very bully-ish of a "lawyer" (who could just be the guys' brother for all you know) to call you out of the blue, demand that you turn over your domain or they'll sue.

    Consult a lawyer, even if you don't care about owning the domain, you DO need to know your rights. Heaven forbid you turn over other rights as well when dealing with them.

    Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    I had the exact same issue.

    I gave them a name, number and address of some Jewish sounding attorney and told them he'd eat them for breakfast.

    However, I made up the name on the spot and it was a total bluff.

    Long story short, they paid me $1600 for the domain name. I probably could of got $5000.

    Michael Hiles is giving some tasty advice to my ears. You got something they really want. They can pay more the long hard way, or they can pay less the easy and cheaper way.

    You got em right where you want em man.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Zalesky
    One of the things the guy said is that "I know what your thinking here and before you get crazy ideas that you can sell it to us for millions of dollars you cant. The law states that due to trademark violation that we can obtain the domain name"

    He then went on to say that I dont have the right to sell it blah blah blah. The thing was I didnt even ask him about it he just assumed I was going to bring that up.

    I will be waiting for the letter he says I will be getting and depending on what they have against me will determine if I will try and sell it to them or not.

    I was going through the laws on ICANN and it basically stated that if my site was hurting the company with the trademark then there could be issues etc. But my site displayed ebay items and was informational in that it was promoting their product so not sure how this would fall into harming them.

    I will let yall know the outcome. Oh and he called my phone a couple days ago and left a message stating that he had an opportunity for me and it would be something that I would like trying to get me to call him back lol.

    Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author jhn2001
    Ask them to pay you 2500$ for it ,if not then start a Porn site on that particular domain.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony Robinson
    Personally, I'd at least consult with an attorney to find out what your rights are for these reasons:

    Even though you may not care about this particular domain name, sooner or later this will come up again over a domain you do care about. By finding out where you stand now, you'll be a lot better equipped when this happens in the future

    Finding out from an attorney in your area could help you avoid this (or at least keep it to a minimum) in the future

    You can most likely write off the cost of the consult as a business expense

    To me this sounds fishy since every attorney I've ever dealt with wanted everything in writing, and typically had one of his/her assistants do grunt work like making phone calls, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Jason, your lawyer buddy can claim all he wants, but it's pure sabre rattling.

    ICANN's policies are pretty clear:

    ICANN | Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy



    a. Applicable Disputes. You are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding in the event that a third party (a "complainant") asserts to the applicable Provider, in compliance with the Rules of Procedure, that
    (i) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights; and
    (ii) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and
    (iii) your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.
    In the administrative proceeding, the complainant must prove that each of these three elements are present.

    b. Evidence of Registration and Use in Bad Faith. For the purposes of Paragraph 4(a)(iii), the following circumstances, in particular but without limitation, if found by the Panel to be present, shall be evidence of the registration and use of a domain name in bad faith:
    (i) circumstances indicating that you have registered or you have acquired the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark or to a competitor of that complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of your documented out-of-pocket costs directly related to the domain name; or
    (ii) you have registered the domain name in order to prevent the owner of the trademark or service mark from reflecting the mark in a corresponding domain name, provided that you have engaged in a pattern of such conduct; or
    (iii) you have registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of disrupting the business of a competitor; or
    (iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant's mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.

    You don't have the registration for their exact trademark name, and it's not confusingly similar.

    You didn't "squat" on the domain, you actually have a site.

    You didn't register it in bad faith.

    Tell your attorney buddy to go fu@k himself and that if he pursues this, you will file harrassment charges against him and his supposed client in your jurisdiction, and that all communication from him should be on letterhead, sent registered mail (keep a paper trail, pop the bubble if he's a fake actor).

    Put at the top of your site that you do not represent the named company and that you are a 3rd party with a link to their corporate site.

    Lawyers are lying pieces of $hit when it comes to civil issues like this, and they specifically play on the ignorance and fear of the ones that they are trying to bully on behalf of their bully clients.

    Start a blog site documenting everything so that the company in question can think about the negative PR that their boy wonder is generating for them.

    No matter what the idiot claims, he has yet to send you a C&D letter certified. Which means that for all his bluster, he's failed to comply with one of the basic requirements that any judge would demand to hear any tort case... did the plantiff provide adequate notification of the claimed infringement of trademark? If not, summary judgment of dismissal.

    What is certain is that this moron cannot just instantly sue you based on a claim, you lose everything, etc...

    Don't roll over.

    I actually smell a rat.
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      You don't have the registration for their exact trademark name, and it's not confusingly similar.

      You didn't "squat" on the domain, you actually have a site.

      You didn't register it in bad faith.
      I probably missed something around here, but I read the thread from beginning
      to end and didn't find the actual domain and/or trademark even stated. Unless
      the OP maybe PM'd you or someone about it, how can anyone be sure?

      Since I now have more free time, I'd like to share some things I have the good
      fortune to learn from licensed legal experts with real-world experience in these
      issues, coupled with some limited experience being in the middle of it.

      First, one member correctly said various countries have various laws that deal
      with otherwise similar issues. But for countries like the U.S., trademarks don't
      have to be registered to exist.

      In the U.S. and U.K., trademarks are created through use in commerce. If you
      use a name, word, or phrase to sell a product or service in limited situations,
      then you actually have a trademark.

      One Philadelphia-based lawyer I know likened this to his dog not registered at
      his city government's office as (supposedly) required, yet it's still a dog. Same
      thing with trademarks.

      This is called a "common law" trademark, whose definition can be found online
      in various dictionaries. Some dispute resolution systems such as ICANN's UDRP
      (as mentioned earlier) and the U.S. Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection
      Act (ACPA) can address them, though the complaining party must prove their
      claims under whichever of the two they opt for.

      A few problems with common law trademarks, though, is they generally apply
      only in their jurisdictions where their holders are mainly doing business in, how
      they're "exactly" used for, and/or when they began existing. TM registration in
      the relevant office (at least) tries to address those, depending on their needs
      and if their applicants are able to meet them.

      You can search Google if they possibly have a trademark like "word trademark"
      or at the trademark database's website if there's a lead in Google. Be aware,
      though, that they only show whatever they indexed or found in their search,
      which might not even show certain common law marks.

      Next, another member here is rather right that even having a trademark, be it
      registered or not, doesn't necessarily grant its holder enforceable rights to its
      domain name-sake, again, in limited situations. One trademark holder recently
      found this out the hard way when he filed a UDRP, subsequently lost, and was
      told by its strict panelist rather painfully.

      Unfortunately it's not always black and white, as there are also various cases
      where one decision turned out one way, yet a similar dispute was decided in a
      different way merely because of one fact or another. It's case to case.

      In both ICANN's UDRP and ACPA, especially if it's a .com being discussed here,
      selling the domain to its trademark name-sake holder is evidence of "bad faith"
      registration. Some people (luckily?) are compensated by the mark holder just
      for their registration fee, while others' selling it to them for whatever reason is
      later taken against them.

      As LB stated, waiting for a C&D via postal mail to be considered legit is rather
      a common misconception. That's probably because many people expect that,
      but there's no law requiring one to send a C&D via postal mail, email, or even
      a Native American smoke signal.

      Heck, they indeed don't have to contact you to try settling it first. Companies
      like Microsoft demonstrated this various times, but it's true that some (if not
      many) still do the C&D route to try resolving it without filing a dispute if it can
      be helped.

      I also probably misread it, but it seemed some said something like you are not
      infringing the trademark if the domain contains an extra word. There are cases
      also of domains transferred bearing just an extra letter or word together with
      the exact mark word or so, as long as the complainant proved their claims.

      In my previous registrar life, I've mostly locked the domain name upon receipt
      of a UDRP notice or order from a court of competent jurisdiction. The former is
      part of our contract with ICANN on domain disputes, and the latter is rather a
      bit more complex to explain.

      Depending how things go, the domain stays locked until we get another notice
      saying what to do with it. All unlocked, some transferred, others stayed with
      its owner-registrant.

      If any of you wonder why U.S. TM laws apply to .com, it's either because the
      domain's registrar is U.S.-based, opts to comply if offshore, and/or the .com
      authoritative Registry database is located in Virginia. Few filed in Virginia just
      to force the Registry to comply and get around the registrar if they can afford
      it.

      IMHO, it really depends on who you're dealing with. As Anna Johnson said, get
      whatever facts you can and contact a lawyer, solicitor, whatever.

      To the OP: hope it works out, and be ready for the results of your choices. I
      guess the same goes for all of us, anyway.

      Oh, and please don't PM or email me specifics about it, although I like to help
      if I really could. Also unfortunately if the complaining party files suit (and you
      really never know), U.S. e-discovery allows them to get any online details (be
      it PM, email, etc.) about it.

      Although I'm not sure that applies to me since I'm not U.S.-based, all my email
      service providers are. Not intending to spread FUD, but letting you know what
      to possibly expect.

      I certainly understand others' telling you, Jason, that you can somehow make
      money out of this or even fight it. Just remember that you alone are the one
      being affected by this directly, and little to no one else around here will likely
      help you out of this if things get really messy.

      Time to get back to work...
      Signature

      David

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  • Profile picture of the author webpagesrus
    I purchased a domain name a while back shopatavon.com when my wife became an AVON sales rep. I simply used the domain as a redirect to her AVON furnished online sales page.

    After she quit, I kept the name and added content and articles to it and turned it into an Adsense site.

    Then a year or so later I received several letters sent via Fed-Ex from a law firm representing AVON. I blew the first two off, because alot of the facts they stated were incorrect regarding nameservers and admin contact details.

    However they became more threatening and were demanding that I transferred the domain immediately or face legal action. At that time I researched the law firm and they were legit and located in the same city as AVON.

    I then changed the content and focus of the site, as a community site Avon Lake Ohio

    I finally sent a reply, telling them that I see no copyright infringement because the site does not mention AVON the company or has any reference to any beauty or cosmetic products.

    Its been over a month now and I had yet to hear a reply
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    Jason,

    1. Collect all the facts you have available - about your domain name, the alleged trade mark, the company and law firm that contacted you, etc.

    2. Create a time line of events.

    3. If you think the threat is legitimate, contact a competent lawyer who is expert in domain name / trade mark disputes and ask for an initial consultation (hopefully free or for a limited fee) during which you can lay out the facts and get their initial advice on what to do next.

    By doing the ground work yourself you will have a better picture of the situation, save yourself potential legal fees, and possibly get some $$ for that domain name (i.e. if the people who contacted you are bluffing).
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    I don't really think there is much more to be said here. It does sound strange but there are certainly plenty of attorneys that are scumbags so it could be legit.

    No point discussing this much more as everyone has their own opinion...talk to a lawyer.

    Generally people are supposed to go the "C&D" route before filing suit. And, a phone call doesn't cut it. It HAS to be in writing.
    No, this is a misconception. A suit can be filed without any previous contact. Your first notice will be from the court.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I agree that you don't have to actually receive a C&D letter to be sued. What I said was that the court usually looks at prior notification or attempt at soliciting a remedy before actually hearing the case. Each judge is different so YMMV.
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    • I don't know if the laws are different from the US / Canada, but here's a piece that I think might help you out, if not amusing!

      However, you can also send this to your lawyers to BACK OFF!

      I do wish you luck with your situation!

      JMB


      MPs' domains linked to sex, drugs


      News: Politics. INTERNET: 'Domainers' grab websites that have expired ... Both MPs let the registration on the domains bearing their names lapse, ...

      www.lfpress.ca

      INTERNET: 'Domainers' grab websites that have expired
      MPs' domains linked to sex, drugs!


      OTTAWA -- Two MPs are learning about the Internet the hard way after their domain names were scooped up and linked to websites promoting sex and drugs.


      Roger Cuzner, Liberal whip and MP for Cape Breton-Canso, was surprised yesterday when Sun Media alerted him that the link to his website on Parliament's website leads instead to an Internet dating site. His website, Dating Service for older people looking for younger partners. Online Personals (see link), is currently a portal for dating and porn sites.

      Keith Ashfield, Conservative MP for Fredericton, discovered a couple of weeks ago that his website, Buy oxycodone with no prescription, cheap generic oxycodone (see link), now offers drugs like OxyContin for sale without prescription. While OxyContin is sold legally with prescription as a pain killer, it is also popular among addicts -- sometimes with devastating effects.

      Both MPs let the registration on the domains bearing their names lapse, allowing unknown buyers to scoop them up. If the purchasers don't want to relinquish the domains or want to demand an exorbitant price, getting them back could prove both costly and time consuming.

      Michael Geist, professor at the University of Ottawa and one of Canada's foremost experts on the Internet, says the MPs appear to be victims of "domainers."

      Domainers grab website domains that have expired and take advantage of pre-existing links to those sites to direct traffic to click-through advertising sites. Every time someone looking for the MPs' websites clicks on the paid links, the domainers cash in.

      Michael Stewart, general counsel for Canadian Internet Registration Authority, said there is a dispute resolution process for a trademarked domain. But there's limited recourse for individuals who find their names suddenly linked to drugs or porn.

      Those who have registered Internet domains get plenty of notice before their registration expires, he said. Once it expires, the website stops working and the domain owner has 30 days before the domain goes on the market.

      In the case of Ashfield, he is taking steps to set up a new website.

      Cuzner had Parliament staff change the link on Parliament's website and has consulted the House of Commons' legal counsel about getting his domain back.

      Meanwhile, he's taking it all with a bit of humour.

      "It might be the first time that my 20-year-old son Mitch might actually check out his father's website," he said.


      WEB: www.rodgercuzner.ca

      WEB: www.keithashfield.ca



      CANOE -- CNEWS - Politics: MPs' domains linked to sex, drugs
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  • Profile picture of the author winebuddy
    How much do you want for the domain? I'll be happy to buy it from you.
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    "Knowledge is NOT power... ACTION on Knowledge is power"
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Jason...

    The first thing you need to do is STOP asking for legal
    advice on message forums... IMMEDIATELY!

    With all due respect to those who have tried to help
    you have received lots of very bad advice and opinions
    in this thread.

    Call a lawyer ASAP or just give them the domain.

    Tsnyder
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author enterpryzman
    I went as far as buying a domain name that dropped several years ago and it was a trademarked name in Spain ( blue jean company ). They contacted me several months later and made threats.....I requested proof of ownership that would satisfy me after their attorney emailed me.

    They demanded again and refused to give me any proof.....I sent them an email and offered to sell it for 2,800 to them.....they wired me 1/2 and I pushed the domain into a new account at eNom....they wired me the other half and I emailed them the passords for the account, it was pretty easy.

    If they have a valid claim, you do not have a leg to stand on unless you are using the name in a completey unique market, not the same as them. With a letter to Ican they can have it removed from your account very easily.

    Either turn it over or consult a domain attorney......that would be the easiest things to do.


    Good luck,
    Enterpryzman
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  • Profile picture of the author BigBenForCanton
    Spare me the 'lawyers are evil angle.' It's so trite and overdone. Everybody loves to have a group/person to blame. It's the American way. If we can find something to attribute all of your shortcomings to, we'll be happy to do it.

    Lawyers, just like every other group of people, have segments that are rogue and unscrupulous. This forum is jammed with scammers, manipulators, and flat-out liars. That doesn't mean that there aren't some solid well-intentioned individuals here.

    Get some perspective.
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