5 Arguments for the Case for Using Pen Names

[BizBoost]

Howdy, I just resurrected a thread titled, "Re: Why do you use or dont use your real name on warrior ?" and was not surprised to see it get a lot of fast attention again.

I'm starting this thread because I believe there's a much bigger benefit to discussing, and evaluating, why a person would use a pen name, or an alias, not just on the Warrior Forum, but ANYWHERE... as, I believe, it has less to do with personal like and dislike, and more to do with overall effectiveness.

"Using pen names" is an interesting topic because has two very distinct camps of thought, both for it and against it, but it's not a heated topic like the 3 topics "whose names we shall not mention."

So, here are 5 arguments FOR the use of pen names:

1. Safety - The internet is not the same as your local business community. More people have greater and speedier access to information online and, even with your real name, don't always see you as a real person but just as a character in their online drama. Why expose yourself to such uncertainty when you can make just as much money without trying to be a real-name celebrity.
2. Branding - Someone recently said that "The Rich Jerk" was not listed (in another thread) amongst the Top 5 gurus that people trusted. Perhaps he was in their Top 10 which is no small thing. But, whatever the case, most, if not all, of us know the name and many of us made The Rich Jerk richer (and continue to play off his name). Keyword: Differentiation.
3. Buffer - Not the same as #1 but as a buffer against your own mistakes. There's no 1 thing called "internet marketer". We have different temperaments and learning curves. Not intending to be disingenous, we could make a real gaff and not deserve to have it wreck our whole online careers for the rest of our lives. Just like incorporating protects one personal assets from lawsuits, an alias can protect one from a bunch of internet curmudgeons' angry rantings if they end up unsatisfied or feeling misunderstood. It's not that you intend it, but we all make mistakes, and not all mistakes can be rectified.
4. Fun/Entertainment - Using an alias can be fun. It can allow you to be more outgoing and engaging in ways that "Joe Smith" or "Sally Jones" might not be able to. It might also be more appealing to Westerners than "Rajiv Samalamasamalamaranth" or "Yvgeny Apopolepsipskaya"
5. Increased Opportunity - Having a successful alias can provide you with future opportunities to write about how you devised it, or how others can do it. It also allows you more flexibility in dealing with people both on, and offline, since you will, perhaps unwittingly even, be developing a new side of your personality...

Some people say, "Just be yourself", but even psychology hasn't yet figured out just who, or what, is our total self. And others say, "I don't trust anyone who doesn't use their real name", as if their $10 is going to make the difference in that person's life... or, as if every marketer wants and needs their business.

The most important things are that one's business endeavors should be SAFE, SECURE and, most importantly, ENJOYABLE and the rest will develop naturally.

A pen name, or alias, used thoughtfully and intelligently can help provide just that.

Are you for, or against, aliases/pen names, not just here on Warrior Forum, but as part of a business model. Opinions are welcome, but please try to include a little "experience" with it, as well. Thanks!

Bon appetit!
Eric

[Alex Taylor]

I can understand the arguments for some people using pen names, especially the safety one and not wanting to expose too much personal info online.

What I don't like is when someone has multiple pen names. Nothing wrong with it, I guess. Something about it doesn't sit right with me though.

[reynald2790]

It is just because they want to protect their personal information. But, I think it does not matter anyway because the most important thing is the quality of a person. Not the pen names.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Alex Taylor

What I don't like is when someone has multiple pen names. Nothing wrong with it, I guess. Something about it doesn't sit right with me though.

It'd be interesting to see if you can put your finger on it. Do you think that feeling comes from your personal upbringing and the way you did things in your community, or is it something else?

Originally Posted by reynald2790

It is just because they want to protect their personal information. But, I think it does not matter anyway because the most important thing is the quality of a person. Not the pen names.

And, certainly, if the marketer is giving good help, good information and/or results in others making money, eh?

[ashleybaker]

I'm a strong 'by myself' kinda guy, so yeah I am Ashley Baker.

If I made a mistake, people will have to get over it! Interesting thread though.

[1bad55]

I like the idea of having pen names. I think depending on your online endeavors there may be a case where you have multiple identities for each niche you are in.

If you sell to 10 different niches creating an identity in each niche as an expert in that niche to me is the way to go instead of trying to use one name and spread it over multiple niches.

If someone does a search for your pen name and finds that you write information about 10 different niches or fields they are less likely to believe that you are a true expert in any one niche or field.

However if they do a search and find that all your articles are about one field or niche then they are more likely to believe that you are an expert in that field or niche.

Well that is my take on Pen Names.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by ashleybaker

If I made a mistake, people will have to get over it! Interesting thread though.

Ok, but just imagine such a scenario. Would it be more thrilling if Ashley just showed up to try to put out the fire, or if "Super Bakerman!!" came to the rescue?

Originally Posted by 1bad55

If you sell to 10 different niches creating an identity in each niche as an expert in that niche to me is the way to go instead of trying to use one name and spread it over multiple niches.

If someone does a search for your pen name and finds that you write information about 10 different niches or fields they are less likely to believe that you are a true expert in any one niche or field.

However if they do a search and find that all your articles are about one field or niche then they are more likely to believe that you are an expert in that field or niche.

Well that is my take on Pen Names.

And a brilliant one! Indeed, if someone did a Google search on your name and found it in the resource box of about 800 articles -- all having nothing in common -- that could look pretty weird... i guess it would come down to whether or not a significant number of people would even bother to do such a search or whether your revenue is generated by a less diligent group of people. Thanks...!

[Debbie Songster]

I use pen names. I find in some of the things that I do I have to use a pen name.

On the warrior forum I use my real name because I'm building a reputation for my coaching. I also build websites and it's easier for people to identify with a real person than a business name. But for my stores, I don't use my real name.

Depending on the store I find it works better if people think they are dealing with a man versus a woman. In that case I'll use my husband's first name. With our toolbox store I send e-mails using a male name versus female because most of the purchasers are male. They want to talk to a man, not a woman about what will work best for their garage.
With our information products, I'll use a business name instead of my own or use a male name instead of my own. I do this because I believe sales convert better from a man than from a woman, depending on the market.

It's been my experience, and I wasn't born yesterday that in order for women to sell successfully they have to be really good. I man on the other hand, can be mediocre. So to eliminate the possibility of my gender affecting sales in markets where I can't create a personal connection I'll use a male pen name.

[ashleybaker]

Originally Posted by BizBoost

Ok, but just imagine such a scenario. Would it be more thrilling if Ashley just showed up to try to put out the fire, or if "Super Bakerman!!" came to the rescue?

**Ashley requests a username change to 'Super Bakerman' lol**

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Debbie Songster

It's been my experience, and I wasn't born yesterday that in order for women to sell successfully they have to be really good. I man on the other hand, can be mediocre. So to eliminate the possibility of my gender affecting sales in markets where I can't create a personal connection I'll use a male pen name.

I think you've got a tremendous opportunity there, though. I think you might be underestimating the DRAW a woman could have on tool-hungry men. Any chance some of those guys get to interact with, or be around, a woman, is a breath of fresh air to them.

You could say, "Think a woman don't know tools? Then come on down and try me." The subtle implications of "try me" will see a flood of new business coming in the door. Just make sure your husband is there to guard you. Sex sells... and it doesn't have to be low-class... but just a tiny drop will do.

What about creating a "tough-as-nails" female persona. Remember Rosy the Riveter?

[Debbie Songster]

Originally Posted by BizBoost

I think you've got a tremendous opportunity there, though. I think you might be underestimating the DRAW a woman could have on tool-hungry men. Any chance some of those guys get to interact with, or be around, a woman, is a breath of fresh air to them.

You could say, "Think a woman don't know tools? Then come on down and try me." The subtle implications of "try me" will see a flood of new business coming in the door. Just make sure your husband is there to guard you. Sex sells... and it doesn't have to be low-class... but just a tiny drop will do.

What about creating a "tough-as-nails" female persona. Remember Rosy the Riveter?

That would probably work well in a brick and mortar store but not online. An online store doesn't give you the same personal opportunity as a brick and mortar store does.
There are still too many male chauvinists out there. I'm not too proud that I can't take on a "man's role" if it means making a sale. I'm not saying that I would lose the sale if they knew I was a woman - I'm just saying the process is easier if I take a "secretary" role instead of the owners role.

My husband is in sales. He understands why I do it that way. I know more about the toolboxes then he does but to close a sale he's happy to "step in" even if its only in print.
Last fall I was looking for a new toolbox supplier. We went to the SEMA show in Las Vegas - we go every year. If you aren't familiar with it, its a huge automotive after market show.
I started to talk to a sales guy about his toolbox line. He didn't want to talk to me. He wanted to talk to my husband. Larry even told him, hey buddy talk to her, its her store. The guy was a total ass. I moved on - he obviously didn't want my business.
This happens a lot and I believe its just as prevalent with buyers.

So, I don't have a problem not using my real name in circumstances where there is no personal connection.

As for articles 1bad55 brought up good points and I do the same thing. Different names for different niches.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Debbie Songster

That would probably work well in a brick and mortar store but not online. An online store doesn't give you the same personal opportunity as a brick and mortar store does.

Agreed. I'd still love to see some kind of a split test, or survey, though.

Sounds like you're doing quite well. I hope it continues.

Eric

[IMChick]

Originally Posted by BizBoost

I think you've got a tremendous opportunity there, though. I think you might be underestimating the DRAW a woman could have on tool-hungry men. Any chance some of those guys get to interact with, or be around, a woman, is a breath of fresh air to them.

You could say, "Think a woman don't know tools? Then come on down and try me." The subtle implications of "try me" will see a flood of new business coming in the door. Just make sure your husband is there to guard you. Sex sells... and it doesn't have to be low-class... but just a tiny drop will do.

What about creating a "tough-as-nails" female persona. Remember Rosy the Riveter?

Disagree strongly, unless you're Danica the racing chick spokesmodel cheesecake on godaddy. Not the kind of business model I envision for myself. Of course, YMMV. Your mileage may vary.

I don't 'get' what she's doing there trying to sell domain names. And to tell you the truth, I'm a girl, I don't just play on one the WF. That spokesmodel image gives me an 'iccch' feeling, so in this example the company has potentially alienated 1/2 of it's market.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by IMChick

Disagree strongly, unless you're Danica the racing chick spokesmodel cheesecake on godaddy. Not the kind of business model I envision for myself. Of course, YMMV. Your mileage may vary.

It works well with Budweiser, Bacardi, Hooters and I could probably name another 2 dozen places if the point weren't already made.

You might argue against it as a marketing strategy for personal reasons but you can't argue with results.

Originally Posted by IMChick

I don't 'get' what she's doing there trying to sell domain names. And to tell you the truth, I'm a girl, I don't just play on one the WF. That spokesmodel image gives me an 'iccch' feeling, so in this example the company has potentially alienated 1/2 of it's market.

Bob Parsons is known for attracting attention with controversy. In fact, you just mentioned him again and if someone here wants to see what Danica looks like over there now, they'll go there and end up seeing some of the deals.

Originally Posted by IMChick

That spokesmodel image gives me an 'iccch' feeling, so in this example the company has potentially alienated 1/2 of it's market.

If you don't mind me asking, how can you say such things? Isn't it a little presumptuous to suggest your personal response would be the same as a full HALF of Godaddy's potential customer base? Like them, or not, or agree with them, or not, there's plenty of women for whom such things are just not an issue.

Besides, the person to whom I replied is not a race car driver selling domains. She's owns the business.

[bottomline11]

Originally Posted by 1bad55

I like the idea of having pen names. I think depending on your online endeavors there may be a case where you have multiple identities for each niche you are in.

If you sell to 10 different niches creating an identity in each niche as an expert in that niche to me is the way to go instead of trying to use one name and spread it over multiple niches.

If someone does a search for your pen name and finds that you write information about 10 different niches or fields they are less likely to believe that you are a true expert in any one niche or field.

However if they do a search and find that all your articles are about one field or niche then they are more likely to believe that you are an expert in that field or niche.

Well that is my take on Pen Names.

IMHO you make a great point, having your name on tons of articles from multiple niches could and most likely would diminish the perception of you as the expert in a respective niche.

I mean think about it why is it that you very rarely ever see any of the so-called IM gurus with their name on anything other than the how to make money stuff they are hawking?

To a Great '09
Matt

[AfteraDream]

Very timely post. I'm a foreign guy and none of americans could pronounce my name accurately so I like the pen name idea.

[Jasim]

Hi I agree with what has been said and yes pen names are a wonderful safety tool and some people are just a little shy about discussing things if others know their true identity. So like the ones back in school who did not like public speaking this gives them a boost of confidence that people might want to hear want they have to say.

[Jasim]

Sorry but one more thought how different is using pen names to someone purchasing several different domain names to operate different niches under but be the only person behind them all?

[MichaelHiles]

Using monikers serves only one purpose in IM... pursuing multiple markets simultaneously. I've sort of solved that problem by simply establishing a publishing mark that is the brand. Otherwise, the web in 2009 is all about transparancy. Are you seriously going to take a stock tip from someone named moondawg32235 on a market forum?

Andy Beal covers this entire topic in his recent book.

[Ryan Even]

Although I use my real name on the Warrior Forum, I use a Pen Name in almost all of my niche businesses.

This came as a result of a "digital stalker" in one of my businesses that got a hold of my home address and started sending me postal mail.

Luckily it was a girl with a crush and not anything scary, however, it triggered me to stop using my real name in most of my niches.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by BizBoost

It works well with Budweiser, Bacardi, Hooters and I could probably name another 2 dozen places if the point weren't already made.

You might argue against it as a marketing strategy for personal reasons but you can't argue with results.

Bob Parsons is known for attracting attention with controversy. In fact, you just mentioned him again and if someone here wants to see what Danica looks like over there now, they'll go there and end up seeing some of the deals.

If you don't mind me asking, how can you say such things? Isn't it a little presumptuous to suggest your personal response would be the same as a full HALF of Godaddy's potential customer base? Like them, or not, or agree with them, or not, there's plenty of women for whom such things are just not an issue.

And isn't it a little presumptious of you to suggest YOUR personal response would be the same as HALF of GoDaddy's potential customer base.

After all, there are some MEN that are turned off by using a "pretty face" to hawk what should be a serious business product.

In other words, don't distract me with cleavage, tell me WHY I should choose you.

So, maybe it all evens out. My guess is that 1/4 are turned off enough not to use GoDaddy, 1/4 fall for it and register, 1/4 aren't persuaded one way or the other, and the remaining 1/4 couldn't be persuaded due to bad experiences or bias against GoDaddy.

-----------

As far as pen names, yes there are resons to use them, but they aren't for everybody.

There are just as many to use a real name.

It doesn't make someone right or wrong, it just means they have different reasons for using a certain name.

For the record, I use my real name here and at EXA, but also have a few pen names at EZA.

Interesting discussion so far.

All the best,
Michael

[jrailsback]

Also consider what Eban Pagan did. He used the pen name "David DeAngelo" for his Double Your Dating product. Why?

My guess would be a combination of branding and protecting his real name.

Eban uses his real name "Eban Pagan" for his marketing and coaching programs. It would be wise to use a pen name if you were to put out a product in a completely different market, especially the dating market. So he went with "David DeAngelo" for the dating market.

It keeps his two ventures separate so they don't interfere with each other.

I'm considering doing something similar with a product I'm working on in the public speaking and oratory development market.

[Chris Grable]

I'm perfectly willing to agree that there are any number of reasons for using a pen name. In an environment such as this where you might want someone to take you seriously, make personal or business decisions based on your advice or maybe even JV with you.... you'll probably want to use your real name. Before you point out an example.... using a well established and branded Trade Name that can be tracked back to either an individual or company would work just as well.

[Paul Myers]

Note: I am not at all opposed to selling products that use a pen name. The following comments have to do with doing business in forums.

Safety: A tiny risk, but a real one. You choose: Do you want to take sensible precautions with your information, or hide? If you hide, understand that there really are costs to it. Not only will more people refuse to buy from you if they find out, there are MANY people who won't do other kinds of deals with you. Things like joint ventures, affiliate promotions, partnerships, etc.

If you're not trying to sell anything here, there's no need to use your name if you choose not to. Except for the potential lost networking benefits, which may not mean anything to you.

No matter how much you or others may claim it's not true, or try to minimize the costs, they are real and they can be significant.

Branding: It's not hard at all to find out the real name of the person behind "The Rich Jerk." Kelly makes no secret of his identity. Same with "David DeAngelo."

Buffer: Chicken**** excuse. All of the big names have made mistakes, just like everyone else. Rational people forgive honest mistakes if they're corrected. The psychos aren't worth changing your life over.

This "buffer" concept is the thing that lets anonymous creeps get away with the destructicve and vicious crap they do.

Fun: I had a discussion recently with someone about a person who I consider to be one of the 3 or 4 most deliberately disruptive and destructive creeps I've encountered in online forums. This was his "rationale" for adopting his persona. It lets him have fun, while avoiding the consequences of his abusive behavior.

Opportunity: Ridiculous. There's nothing you can't do using your real name that you can do using a fake one.

You forgot one very important reason, and one that's valid, although still subject to the problems of the first listed reason: Don't want the current boss to know you're doing something outside your job.


Paul

[thinkrich]

I know of a highly successful marketer from the UK who uses a pen name.

The same pen name for all his products, affiliate payments and everything.

When he started in IM it was an obvious choice for him to do.

Offline, he is a lawyer.

Thus, made a separation between his offline practice and his online activities.

Many authors use pen names - online and offline

[BizBoost]

Re: MichaelHiles, Ryan Even, Michael Oksa, Chris Grable, ThinkRich:

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Using monikers serves only one purpose in IM... pursuing multiple markets simultaneously. I've sort of solved that problem by simply establishing a publishing mark that is the brand.

Apparently, it only serves you one purpose but, as you see below, there are those with safety concerns and other reasons for using a moniker.

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Otherwise, the web in 2009 is all about transparancy. Are you seriously going to take a stock tip from someone named moondawg32235 on a market forum?

No, probably not, but you just pulled the classic case of using an extreme example to justify your point. What if the moniker was TODD RICHIE and his stock tip contained some well-researched advice that was verifiable? As we know, even people who use their REAL names have given injurious stock tips/advice. What matters, moniker or not, is if you're known for being entertaining and giving good, verifiable advice.

Originally Posted by Ryan Even

Although I use my real name on the Warrior Forum, I use a Pen Name in almost all of my niche businesses.

This came as a result of a "digital stalker" in one of my businesses that got a hold of my home address and started sending me postal mail.

Tell it to Paul Myers, below. Apparently, he thinks it's "hiding" and that there's a trade-off.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

And isn't it a little presumptious of you to suggest YOUR personal response would be the same as HALF of GoDaddy's potential customer base.

I think, in your eagerness to play "white knight", you overlooked the fact that I wasn't presuming anything. I had just pointed out her presumption which is clear and evident as she literally states "so in this example the company has potentially alienated 1/2 of it's market."

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

After all, there are some MEN that are turned off by using a "pretty face" to hawk what should be a serious business product.

Yea, why don't you show me a sample to the point where it matters.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

In other words, don't distract me with cleavage, tell me WHY I should choose you.

This is what happens when someone gets too bogged down in theory. While there are exceptions, human nature is what it is. Just like the first point in your reply had nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with playing "hero"...

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

So, maybe it all evens out. My guess is that 1/4 are turned off enough not to use GoDaddy, 1/4 fall for it and register, 1/4 aren't persuaded one way or the other, and the remaining 1/4 couldn't be persuaded due to bad experiences or bias against GoDaddy.

While it might be hard for you to believe that I'm not saying this to be rude, my question is, "Who cares?" The guy is making millions. Only greedy dreamers who haven't made a fraction of that have the luxury of sitting in forums wondering about how much money guys like Bob Parsons are letting slip through their fingers.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

As far as pen names, yes there are resons to use them, but they aren't for everybody.

There are just as many to use a real name.

It doesn't make someone right or wrong, it just means they have different reasons for using a certain name.

Michael, are you for real? What you just said is true about everything.

"There are reasons to use high performance car tires... but they're not for everyone, either. There are just as many reasons to use non-high performance tires. It doesn't make tire customers right or wrong, it just means they have different reasons for the tires they chose."

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

For the record, I use my real name here and at EXA, but also have a few pen names at EZA.

Interesting discussion so far.

Well, you ended on a good note but it seems you don't realize that you started off your comment as if you were looking for a fight. I don't go looking for them but I don't care for it, either. Maybe we can start over...

Originally Posted by Chris Grable

I'm perfectly willing to agree that there are any number of reasons for using a pen name. In an environment such as this where you might want someone to take you seriously, make personal or business decisions based on your advice or maybe even JV with you.... you'll probably want to use your real name. Before you point out an example.... using a well established and branded Trade Name that can be tracked back to either an individual or company would work just as well.

The question is, how does anyone know whether you're using a pen name or not anyways? There's a very lazy, general way that people assume someone is alright to work with and it has nothing to do with using one's real name. After all, how many people do you suspect have verified, for themselves, whether or not Mike Filsaime's real name is Mike Filsaime... or whether they just take it for granted because so many others seem to trust him?

What about Bernie Madhoff? He used his real name. And he had a lot of people who trusted him. In my opinion, still, reputation and trust have nothing to do with using one's real name. It has more to do with having a savvy ability to connect with just enough of the right people and those associations will start to work just fine. Didn't the kinds of people in our field rave about "The Tipping Point"? It was about "mavens, connectors and salespeople"... it said nothing about using one's real name.

Originally Posted by thinkrich

I know of a highly successful marketer from the UK who uses a pen name.

The same pen name for all his products, affiliate payments and everything.

When he started in IM it was an obvious choice for him to do.

Offline, he is a lawyer.

Thus, made a separation between his offline practice and his online activities.

Many authors use pen names - online and offline

You must be talking about "Michael Green" who is also, allegedly, a member of Parliament.

Nice guy. A little too much starch in his shirts, but a nice guy.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Note: I am not at all opposed to selling products that use a pen name. The following comments have to do with doing business in forums.

Well, that's good. But, for clarity sake, there was a thread that was specifically about using (or not), aliases in the Warrior Forum. I started this thread to bring the question of moniker useage to the scale of non-Forum use. While you lightly touch that in your very first line, some of your off-color comments to me below are misplaced because my original 5 arguments not confining this to "forum use" -- you changed it back to that all on your own so you're not arguing with anyone, really. See, here's the original quote that kicked off this thread:

I'm starting this thread because I believe there's a much bigger benefit to discussing, and evaluating, why a person would use a pen name, or an alias, not just on the Warrior Forum, but ANYWHERE... as, I believe, it has less to do with personal like and dislike, and more to do with overall effectiveness.

But I'll address your points, anyways, Paul.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Safety: A tiny risk, but a real one.

Tiny? Here, it might be time for you to brush up on the latest stalking statistics.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You choose: Do you want to take sensible precautions with your information, or hide? If you hide, understand that there really are costs to it. Not only will more people refuse to buy from you if they find out, there are MANY people who won't do other kinds of deals with you. Things like joint ventures, affiliate promotions, partnerships, etc.

Paul, there's a small problem here. And it is a perfect example of that which I'm talking about. Supposedly, you use your real name. And, also, people seem to trust you with an almost cult-like acceptance. But, being trained as I have, I have to ask, how can you possibly say such a thing? Have you been collecting performance statistics on those who use monikers here? On how well they make friends in general? in PM? behind the scenes with people they met here?

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you're not trying to sell anything here, there's no need to use your name if you choose not to. Except for the potential lost networking benefits, which may not mean anything to you.

Has this been measured? Or is it just something you think of as "reasonable to assume?" If one's goal is to make $1M in 1 year, is it reasonable to assume she can't do it with a pen name? or that she can do it *faster* with her real name? Wouldn't a person's success come down to whether or not they were meeting their goals rather than basing it on some unverifiable variable like potentially "lost networking opportunities?"

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

No matter how much you or others may claim it's not true, or try to minimize the costs, they are real and they can be significant.

lol, so no matter how much anyone claims it's untrue, they're automatically wrong even though you can't measure, verify or prove any of what you just said. That's a bit pompous but that's your right, I guess.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Branding: It's not hard at all to find out the real name of the person behind "The Rich Jerk." Kelly makes no secret of his identity. Same with "David DeAngelo."

You're missing the point, though... the question is... did it really matter that people could find his name? How many actually bothered to verify it or even care? He only needed to convince a handful of people to help promote him and that can always be done with a sweet deal or any other number of inducements that don't include a real name. The reason ventures such as his work has nothing to do with either using his real name, or that anyone could find it.

It had everything to do with his understanding of marketing.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Buffer: Chicken**** excuse. All of the big names have made mistakes, just like everyone else. Rational people forgive honest mistakes if they're corrected. The psychos aren't worth changing your life over.

This "buffer" concept is the thing that lets anonymous creeps get away with the destructicve and vicious crap they do.

You sound a little too emotionally invested in this to trust. And, you seem to give too much credence to people, in general. You think people are generally rational? IF THAT WERE TRUE, YOU'D BE OUT OF BUSINESS BY NOW.

I can't believe someone whom people see as an established internet marketer is suggesting that people are generally "rational"... when internet marketing has always been about getting people to "buy on emotion" and to "rationalize it later."

Copywriters will tell you that. Jo Han Mak was on video as saying that. It's stated often. That is why we're instructed to list BENEFITS vs FEATURES.

There are occasions where one can make a mistake. Or one can say he LOVES GW BUSH and HATES OBAMA in the heat of the moment, and PLENTY of irrational people will never buy a thing from that person again.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Fun: I had a discussion recently with someone about a person who I consider to be one of the 3 or 4 most deliberately disruptive and destructive creeps I've encountered in online forums. This was his "rationale" for adopting his persona. It lets him have fun, while avoiding the consequences of his abusive behavior.

Did you actually know the person about whom you were talking, or were you both trying to play "Sherlock Holmes?" The irony is that by your statement, you proved my argument. I'd be willing to bet you've probably never spoken with the person you targeted with your gossip... so how do you know if what you concluded was absolutely true?

Hence, the BUFFER argument remains sound and intact.

Also, my point about *fun* had nothing to do with sociopathic behavior (mislabeled as "fun"), it had to do with really having FUN... the kind where people can open up, express themselves and engage each other in new ways as opposed to being the same old stick in the mud resigned to swimming in circles as, for example, a big fish in a little pond in some forum somewhere.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Opportunity: Ridiculous. There's nothing you can't do using your real name that you can do using a fake one.

Would you, please, kindly stick to giving your thoughts and not your judgments? "Ridiculous" is arrogant and unless you're willing to take it, you shouldn't be dishing it... especially since I have done nothing to disrespect you.

You certainly can do things with a pen name that you can't do with a real name. You can write about your adventures under your pen names. You can't do that if you only use your real name.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You forgot one very important reason, and one that's valid, although still subject to the problems of the first listed reason: Don't want the current boss to know you're doing something outside your job.

I can see how easily someone could accept that as an answer but it's impossible for me because I think like an entrepreneur and not an employee.

[Paul Myers]

I started this thread to bring the question of moniker useage to the scale of non-Forum use. While you lightly touch that in your very first line, some of your off-color comments to me below are misplaced because my original 5 arguments not confining this to "forum use" -- you changed it back to that all on your own so you're not arguing with anyone, really

Fair point. That's why I said that they only applied to forums. It's called "topic drift." I'm prone to it, like most people.

As far as the risk being tiny, it is. Look at those stats, and tell me what percentage of total business users of the web they represent, and what percentage of those are the result of contact with strangers while doing business online.

I didn't say the risk was non-existent. Just that people should consider it from a realistic perspective, and weigh the costs. I think that's a sensible recommendation.

Supposedly, you use your real name. And, also, people seem to trust you with an almost cult-like acceptance.

Yes, I really do use my real name. There are plenty of people here who know that to be a fact, as far as that's possible. There are people here who've sent me checks in that name which have been cashed, and people who've found my phone number in the book by looking it up under that name. To fake that, I'd have had to set up a corporation with a fake name prior to 1995, which is when I first encountered some of the folks in this group. Hardly worth the trouble, since it wouldn't hide me from anything.

The "cult" thing is funny. Some like me, some hate me, and most don't care either way. I've been here for around 10 years, and been consistent over that time. That engenders a bit of trust, yes. If you want to know why, ask some of the real old-timers in the joint.

But "cult-like?" Might seem that way to someone who's been here for all of 9 days, I suppose.

As far as the numbers, that's based on experience. 10 years here, and 22 years overall experience moderating almost every kind of electronic forum you can name. BBSs, Usenet newsgroups, Fidonet echoes, email discussion lists, and web-based forums for the most part.

Note that I didn't say anything was impossible. Simply that one way creates more difficulties than the other. "Possible" is a dangerous word, especially for people who don't have the experience to judge probabilities with any degree of accuracy or any basis in experience.

The fact that a person has opinions on the subject does not necessarily mean that those opinions have any resemblance to processes as they occur in the real world.

That's something most people who've been moderators here at one point or another have found out the hard way. What they thought went on often turned out to be very different from the reality. And those were folks with lots of experience with this specific forum.

Note also that I said the costs can be significant. If you don't believe that's possible, you're quite thoroughly misinformed. I've seen it. I know what they can be.

You're missing the point, though... the question is... did it really matter that people could find his name?

I would bet that it mattered very much. You'd have to ask Kelly, but I suspect that a lot of the bigger names who promoted his stuff would not have done so if he'd been completely anonymous.

You sound a little too emotionally invested in this to trust. And, you seem to give too much credence to people, in general. You think people are generally rational? IF THAT WERE TRUE, YOU'D BE OUT OF BUSINESS BY NOW.

Ah. If one has strong feelings on a subject, one's logic is not to be trusted?

That's absurd. If you want to refute the content of the arguments, go for it. You'll fail, but you're welcome to try.

The fact that I am disgusted by the behavior that is so often hidden behind screen names, by cowards with monitor muscles, is not a flaw, in my opinion.

And no, that statement was not, in any way, directed at you. You're discussing a point. I'm talking about active and malicious abuse, which is a very different thing.

I don't know how much experience you have with discussion forums online. I can tell you from my experience that the worst abuses are almost always perpetrated by people using screen names or fake names. The latter can be harder to spot and deal with, but they're much, much less common.

What I'm telling you here is not theory. It's fact. It's how things work in the digital world. I'd like it to be different, but my preferences don't change reality.

Oh. Just for fun, Google the phrase:

Paul Myers copywriter

Yeah. Those are me. Please continue to teach me what copywriters do, though. I'm sure I could profit from your sage instruction.

And yes, I do indeed think very highly of people in general, and most people in specific. To say that people are generally rational does not in any way deny the fact that emotions drive them. If you don't understand the balance there, I wrote a book that explains a big chunk of it. I can give you a copy, if you like.

Did you actually know the person about whom you were talking

I made observations on his observed and documented behavior. The person with whom I was talking knows the guy, and told me that was his reason for using a screen name. So, yeah. I'm talking about actual facts.

Your argument can't "remain" valid, since it was never valid in the first place.

"Ridiculous" is arrogant and unless you're willing to take it, you shouldn't be dishing it...

Do you see me refusing to continue the discussion? I can take anything you've got to throw, sir. And a lot that you'll never have. This ain't my first rodeo.

You certainly can do things with a pen name that you can't do with a real name. You can write about your adventures under your pen names. You can't do that if you only use your real name.

Forums, remember?

You can use a pen name outside a forum, a real name in the forum, and still write about your adventures under pen names.

And, if you're not selling in the forums, you can still use pen names and write about those.

I can see how easily someone could accept that as an answer but it's impossible for me because I think like an entrepreneur and not an employee.

Irrelevant to my comment. The people in question are required to think in both mindsets, which quite possibly demonstrates more mental flexibility than you've just claimed for yourself.

By the way, another thing that copywriters do: They learn to think like other people. Almost any kind of other people. It's part of the craft, and one of the more useful skills for dealing with humans in general. I recommend it highly.


Paul

[Mike Hill]

Hmmm, is Eban Pagan his real name or just another pen name?

Kinda makes you wonder but hey I have nothing against someone using a pen name so Paul Myers what is your real name?

All kidding aside, like I said I don't have a problem as long as they do the right thing when it comes to doing business. If you make a mistake fix it and make it right!

I don't care if your name is Mary Freaken Poppins as long as you provide what you say you will.

Mike Hill

[cgj1981]

Do people think a pen name like "The Rich Jerk" or just a different name is more worthwhile if you choose to have a pen name.
Or does it not matter at all what your pen name is?
Is there any marketing value to it?

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by cgj1981

Do people think a pen name like "The Rich Jerk" or just a different name is more worthwhile if you choose to have a pen name.
Or does it not matter at all what your pen name is?
Is there any marketing value to it?

Yes, of course there is... it should be something attention-grabbing and relevant to your intended audience. You'd have to do a little market research so you can understand what they need and what they can tolerate.

[Hugh]

Eric,

I remember Allen Says recommending a pen name for beginning article writers to free them from inhibitions. It works!

Another warrior uses pen names to prevent people from knowing every niche he is
working. Makes sense.

I use my real name on this forum because it just feels right.

[David Maschke]

A pen name, that's not a bad idea.

My last name is not very memorable.

Here's a name I've been kicking around for a while...

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt

[Michael Oksa]

Okay, if that's the case, no problem.

When I saw the post had the word "argument" in it, that may have registered subconsciously.

I thought I raised valid points.

One of the things that drives me nuts is when people don't even sign posts with a first name. Why? Because I like to communicate with people, often via PM, and I can't stand calling someone "Hey".



There are reasons to use a real name.

Side note: I was speaking about personal preference when I said "don't distract me with cleavage, tell me WHY I should choose you." (In refernce to selling serious business products).

It was a bit of a tangent, but it's the way I feel. Same thing for financial services that use too much humor. I don't want people handling my money to be funny.

----

Anyway, interesting points about the pros and cons of using pen names.

All the best,
Michael Oksa

[David Maschke]

Side note: I was speaking about personal preference when I said "don't distract me with cleavage, tell me WHY I should choose you." (In refernce to selling serious business products).

It was a bit of a tangent, but it's the way I feel. Same thing for financial services that use too much humor. I don't want people handling my money to be funny.

I'm going to remember you and what you said for the rest of my life, your opinion really jumped out at me. Before those things didn't bother me, but now they will.

Dave

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Eric,

I remember Allen Says recommending a pen name for beginning article writers to free them from inhibitions. It works!

Another warrior uses pen names to prevent people from knowing every niche he is
working. Makes sense.

I use my real name on this forum because it just feels right.

Well, Hugh is a catchy, easy-to-pronounce, easy-to-remember, easy-going name. It feels right to hear it. Good reminder, too, on what Allen said... using a persona, or pen name, isn't "hiding" as some people suggest, it's actually "coming out"... sometimes, one just needs a bit of relief from the negative messages associated with one's lifelong self-image by adopting a pen-name image. Thx...

Originally Posted by David Maschke

A pen name, that's not a bad idea.

My last name is not very memorable.

Here's a name I've been kicking around for a while...

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt

You know what's funny, John Jacob? His name is my name, too! But I think you can change your last name to "MatchKey" and it will be "Catch-ey"... try it!

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Okay, if that's the case, no problem.

When I saw the post had the word "argument" in it, that may have registered subconsciously.

I thought I raised valid points.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for taking my reply in stride. I know you meant not harm but something odd was beginning to happen in the FRAME of the conversation and it would have been a drag to try explaining it. There was just a minorly adversarial ring to it all and I was hoping we could stay friends (that's why I haven't even replied to Paul Myers most recent reply, also).

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

One of the things that drives me nuts is when people don't even sign posts with a first name. Why? Because I like to communicate with people, often via PM, and I can't stand calling someone "Hey".



There are reasons to use a real name.

It's important, I believe, to make a distinction between what those reasons are for YOU and what those reasons are for THEM and what those reasons are for someone who wishes to make a living online both in, and out, of forums. Some of those reasons might overlap but what you like might be well outside the realm of what is needed for a person to make money.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Side note: I was speaking about personal preference when I said "don't distract me with cleavage, tell me WHY I should choose you." (In refernce to selling serious business products).

It was a bit of a tangent, but it's the way I feel. Same thing for financial services that use too much humor. I don't want people handling my money to be funny.

I understand, and, of course everyone is entitled to his opinions and preferences. When I communicate, though, I tend to think in terms of necessity as in "what is needed to accomplish my goals" or "what is needed for each to reach his goals" and, often times, my preferences are not only not necessary but are, often times, counter-productive...

...even though I am entitled to them.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Anyway, interesting points about the pros and cons of using pen names.

All the best,
Michael Oksa

Thanks, Michael... ERIC

[Tyler Jonsson]

I never used a pen name when I started out. But I have begun doing so in most instances.

[Nick Barton]

I think that pen names definitely have their place.

I know that a couple of times I have simply deleted or unsubscribed from emails simply because I didn't recognise the name and then discovered months later that it was a new owner of a business that I had used, so if your plan is to sell your site on at some point, the use of a pen name allows continuity. It becomes part of the brand for the site. Who really cares what the real name is as long as you get the service you want.

It also depends on your market. Take Mills & Boon, they have several regular male authors(one of my friends is one, but he wishes he had never told us) but you will never see a man's name on any of the books!

As long as the purpose is not to deceive, then I can't see any harm in it at all.

Another good reason is if you have a very common name. It is a real benefit for the name you use to show up at the top of google. When I use a pen name I make sure it is one that returns no results when I google it.