Paypal sucks. Screwed for no reason after 5 years of business... Need alternative.

[Scott Murdaugh]

EDIT: THIS THREAD IS 7 MONTHS OLD. MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE IT... OR MEMBERS PLEASE STOP BUMPING IT. THANKS!

So, I was at dinner last night, when it came time to pay I reached for my Paypal card... It was declined even though my account had a few grand in it.

I go online, my account is limited, but it gives no reason. I call customer support this morning, they say they can't tell me why it's limited but I'll get an email shortly.

The email says "We're parting ways" and gives no reason. I call customer support back, who tell me to refer to the email.

Bottom line, my account is dead after 5 years and thousands of successful transactions. There where no disputes, no suspicious activity on the account. I've done nothing wrong.

First, let this serve as a warning to everyone who relies on Paypal... It can disappear instantly for NO reason whatsoever.

My account has had thousands of dollars going through it every month for years. I've never had one single unresolved dispute or unhappy buyer. I did absolutely nothing wrong.

I have heard the horror stories and always assumed that the people who did "nothing wrong" did something wrong... Well, I was wrong.

As much as I'd like to get mad about this... They're holding a big chunk of my money, I'm looking at it as a wake up call.

Any company who can legally take every dime in your account without warning for no reason isn't worth doing business with anyway.

%#$@ them, back to work...

I'm a copywriter, any suggestions on a good way to take payments online?

Don't keep all of your eggs in one basket... Especially when that basket has a reputation of closing accounts for no reason... It does happen.

Thanks,

-Scott

[SolomonHuey]

2checkout is a nice option and relatively cheap. You can also try google checkout, I've never used it before though.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Solomon Huey

[WinsonYeung]

Wow, is there anyway to file a dispute or lawsuit ?
if you need to take some action, you can by submitting a report to
Ripoff Report: By Consumers, For Consumers

[Scott Murdaugh]

I would love to sue them. Not worth the time though, I'm guessing their TOS lays everything out pretty clear.

It's a good way to see how much I relied on them. I think in the bigger picture this will be a good thing.

-Scott

[Kim Standerline]

That is scary Scott,

2co are pretty useful (I like it)

Kim

[Chris Lockwood]

I wouldn't waste your time with sites like RipoffReport, which is just people bitching about things.

Did their email really say "We're parting ways"? Seems like odd language.

There had to be something that happened to cause this, but figuring it out is impossible from the info provided.

Can you log into the account?

[billbarrett]

Hi Scott,

I am sorry to hear that. I use PayPal, too and your post is not a good news for me (((

I would use 2Checkout.com as an alternative. I don't know how's their customer support, though.

You could try also 1shoppingcart.com

Good luck!

[Scott Murdaugh]

Here's what the email says....

We have reviewed your PayPal Account, and due to the excessive risk
involved, we would like to begin parting ways in a manner that is least
disruptive to your business.

And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

-Scott

[billbarrett]

Originally Posted by scottspfd82

Here's what the email says....

And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

-Scott

Oooooh, PayPal really sucks. (( Their customer support is a total s**t. Once I was waiting more than two months for an answer and then I've got an automated mail that said noting. (

[BizBooks]

Sorry to hear

which ever payment processor you choose, you should still have a paypal acocunt for thise times when not having paypal means no sale at all...

also check out: https://www.alertpay.com

[Razer Rage]

This isn't the first paypal horror story I've read, and I doubt it will be the last. Another IM'er I know posted on how paypal shut down his account for no apparent reason during the holidays, costing him thousands in sales.

Then again, his web hosting company also shut him down (I forget what the reason was), during the holidays.

[Brad Gosse]

I have seen paypal do this to countless people yet I still use them.

I am looking for other alternatives today. Thanks for the wake up call.

[anth.elias]

I have been with Paypal for about 3 years, so far so good but I have never been 100% comfortable with them, I just pray and hope that everything will be ok.

[Razer Rage]

Ejunkie would be one.

[Steven Wagenheim]

I would not take this lying down. For me, it would mean close to the end of
my business until I found another payment processor, and then having to
change all my DLGuard products from PayPal to something else.

I would get a lawyer and fight this with every drop of my blood and make
an example of these people just like that one guy did with Google.

You don't have to take this crap.

I know I wouldn't.

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by Razer Rage

Another IM'er I know posted on how paypal shut down his account for no apparent reason during the holidays, costing him thousands in sales.

That's what people always say. Of course it's not possible they actually did break some rule, is it?


The fact that PayPal mentioned "risk" tells me you must have been getting lots of chargebacks or they don't like what you are selling.

[JeffreyM]

Please make an updated post after the 180 days had expired. I'm curious as how it all turns out.

[Scott Murdaugh]

That's what people always say. Of course it's not possible they actually did break some rule, is it?


The fact that PayPal mentioned "risk" tells me you must have been getting lots of chargebacks or they don't like what you are selling.

I used to think the same thing man... The people saying they did nothing did something.

I haven't had a dispute or issued a refund in months. The only thing I've been selling is writing services, and all of my customers are happy.

You don't have to take this crap.

I know I wouldn't.

They got an ear full on the phone. I don't know what I can do to be honest. I don't think whining or talking to them will help. Hiring a lawyer may help but I doubt it.

Right now, I'm just figuring out how to pull my money out and finding another way to take payments.

[Floyd Fisher]

Originally Posted by scottspfd82

Here's what the email says....



And then goes on to tell me I can refund customers or wait 180 days for my money.

The only weird thing that happened, I got an email this morning from a customer I had over a year ago. He asked why I sent him an invoice... I hadn't sent him an invoice.

So, I was thinking maybe my account was hijacked... I asked Paypal about that and got no answer.

-Scott

Would you mind telling me what you were selling that was so risky?

[Scott Murdaugh]

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Would you mind telling me what you were selling that was so risky?

Nothing. That's the point. There is absolutely no reason for this to happen. No risky transactions. Nothing I shouldn't be doing.

[Peter Soos]

From what I understand about them, they are not a bank or a service that is required to play by the same rules as even a CC agency. Their TOS pretty much allows them to freeze all of your assets and keep them "while they investigate". Thing is...during the six months they have your cash...they don't have to tell you what, why or how they are investigating. Easier for them to let the dust settle. Try making your affiliate payouts with dust!

On a different note...same goes for those who have "mail drops" that have their mail delivered. They could take your mail and toss it and you have no recourse with the postal authorities. When you signed up, you gave them cart blanche to accept mail in your behalf. Their TOS usually absolves them of any responsibility for your mail...heck of a deal huh?

Peter Soos

[Mike Hill]

Originally Posted by scottspfd82

I used to think the same thing man... The people saying they did nothing did something.

I haven't had a dispute or issued a refund in months. The only thing I've been selling is writing services, and all of my customers are happy.



They got an ear full on the phone. I don't know what I can do to be honest. I don't think whining or talking to them will help. Hiring a lawyer may help but I doubt it.

Right now, I'm just figuring out how to pull my money out and finding another way to take payments.

Your answers are in this thread...

1. Setup a few other payment alternatives like AlertPay and 2Checkout
2. Get a lawyer to get your funds out of PayPal.

That's it...

I just got my AlertPay Business Account all setup in the last few minutes... (just in case)

[Floyd Fisher]

Originally Posted by scottspfd82

Nothing. That's the point. There is absolutely no reason for this to happen. No risky transactions. Nothing I shouldn't be doing.

Something doesn't add up for this to be happening.

It could be they checked your credit...and found something in there...but they should be telling you that.

Call back, and ask to speak to someone who has a clue. The first person on the line is usually a Jack in the Box reject who can't do anything for you. Go up the chain until you get a proper answer, and don't stop until you do.

[new guy]

Was your account just a normal account or the "merchant account"?

[Raydal]

I have read all the horror stories as well and I don't know
and don't want to find out. So I don't accept any payment
over $3,000 through Paypal for my copywriting services.

And I don't keep anything over $1,000 in my paypal
account before I do a bank transfer. In this way
I try to play it safe.

And 2CO has kept some money for me after I closed
my account. This money should have been sent to
me months ago and I never got it. Not enough to
sweat over anyway.

That's why for my copywriting services I accept
mainly wire transfers, bank deposits or a check
in the mail.

-Ray Edwards

[artwebster]

PayPal is regulated by the FSA (Financial Services Authority) in the UK so UK customers have a powerful ally in such an event - is there no similar regulatory body in USA?

Also, since PayPal are the ones claiming that 'risk' is the problem, they need to substantiate that risk. It isn't as though they have suddenly decided to close your account. The email quote indicates that they are prepared to carry your business until you find an alternative payment processor but that the risk inherrent in their business with you is too high for them to entertain.

Maybe there are aspects to your business that experience has shown them are unwise. The 180 days delay in passing on payments to you is an indication that they are expecting to see a major refund level. This in itself would not normally be assessed as risk but they obviously also feel that the refund level could also affect their own position in the market.

It is worth sending them an email copied to a lawyer asking them to clarify their position.

[BrianMcLeod]

This sucks royally, Scott.

Obviously, it's a complete pain in the ass to have to now look into a traditional merchant account for C/C transactions and start collecting your payments for your writing via check/fed-ex to keep cash-flow going. But that's where you are...

It's not fair, and it's not right. But, you seem to have your eye on the ball about it and are taking the pragmatic approach -- smart.

I'd also be writing a BLISTERING letter right now to the California Attorney General, cc'ed to PayPal's dispute resolution department, demanding specific information relating to the unreasonable seizure of your funds and the specific activities that led to PayPal's actions.

Best,

Brian

[shane_k]

Get a lawyer! Sue them for your money they are holding, loss of interest, damages, lost earnings, lawyer and court fees, and whatever else you can.


You say it is not worth it, and it is this reason that Paypal gets away with it. Don't let them get away with it.


Shane_K

[jamsferguson]

Ok, after reading this I'm thinking of switching to 2co, but Raydal got scr-wed but them too. anybody else got any feedback on 2co or AlertPay?
Jim

[garyv]

I've been with paypal for over a decade now. And to be honest, they have done this to me several times in the past. - The first time is the most devastating. But like you, I was selling an honest product with a very small percentage of refunds or complaints. However, out of the many people that work at paypal, I think that there are some people that work at paypal that are leery of any type of digitally delivered products. They believe it to be "too risky" because it's not a physical product that can be properly tracked. It's the same type of thinking that got digitally delivered items banned from ebay.

Now there are a few ways of addressing this problem. The first thing I would do is write out a well written email, explaining your years of problem free service to your customers, and begging them to let you back on. Continue to email them with this same email every day (maybe even several times per day). The point of this is that there are many different attitudes to the rules working at paypal. You may eventually get your email to a person that sees it to be as ridiculous as you do and help you to get reinstated.

Sometimes this doesn't work however - then you just sign up w/ a new account. In order to do this, you need to do a few things.

1. change up your personal info just a bit, so that it doesn't trigger any of paypal's duplicate account software. So for example maybe add an initial or your middle name to your first name, and maybe spell your street name a bit differently - like spell out drive instead of dr.

2. Have a different bank account then the one you used in the previous paypal account.

3. Start taking your money out more regularly. Never leave money sitting in your paypal account.

I know that this sounds like something an online thief would do, but believe me, I've only ever sold honest products. It's paypal that doesn't play by normal banking or financing rules. They can and will freeze your account - if the wrong person thinks that your products are "too risky". The only way to protect yourself, and still use their monopolistic services, is to also bend their rules a bit. It also pays to have several accounts running at once.

My most recent accounts have been running fine now for a couple of years. However I do not feel guilty in the least bending paypal's rules. They bend them all of the time themselves.

[valerieSONORA]

That's terrible and scary. No disputes, no nothing and they just shut it down? And they lose all that commission they've been making.

Very strange and scary. I'm scared of paypal. They're a necessary evil right now.

I had paypal on a site that was against their TOS though I didn't know it. So my account was put under review but they didn't close it.

Seems they would at least give you an explanation. You deserve to know why.

I'm scared something like this will happen to me one day after all the horror stories I've heard Hope not.

[bgmacaw]

My observation from hearing these stories recently is that there were several large transactions ($1000 or more) in a short period of time where there was no product, digital or physical, ordered in the transactions. Essentially a money transfer so far as PayPal is concerned.

Their security concern is two-fold.

First, that such transactions may be an attempt to launder money for drugs or terrorism. They are required by US law to monitor for this. They may find it easier to shut your account down if there's suspicious activity though.

Second, they may suspect that you're running an illegal business such as a pyramid or matrix scheme, gambling or the like. They could also think that you're violating their TOS by take MLM payments through their system.

I'd recommend that if you're taking PayPal payments that you do them through a transaction interface like e-Junkie. If you take anything over $1000 in a lump sum you might want to consider a different payment process.

And, like Ray said, limit your exposure by withdrawing down to $1000 or so at most. This will leave enough in your account for recurring payments, like web hosting, and to cover unexpected chargebacks but not enough to cause you financial difficulties.

[Micheal Perkins]

Do a search for "merchant account for online business" on Google and find one that you like. I would take the advice of Steve Wagenheim also. Someone sued Google for something very similar when they closed his Adsense account and kept several hundred dollars that was still in his account.

He sued and won, and Google was forced to pay his account balance. Very similar kind of deal, they claimed he was a risk, but could not give any reason why he was a risk. They tried to keep his funds also.

The bottom line is, it's illegal. You provided a product or service to your customers. Paypal can not refuse to give you your money. It's called stealing, and despite what their user agreement says, they can not force you to give up money you earned just because their user agreement says they can.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by Micheal Perkins

Do a search for "merchant account for online business" on Google and find one that you like. I would take the advice of Steve Wagenheim also. Someone sued Google for something very similar when they closed his Adsense account and kept several hundred dollars that was still in his account.

He sued and won, and Google was forced to pay his account balance. Very similar kind of deal, they claimed he was a risk, but could not give any reason why he was a risk. They tried to keep his funds also.

The bottom line is, it's illegal. You provided a product or service to your customers. Paypal can not refuse to give you your money. It's called stealing, and despite what their user agreement says, they can not force you to give up money you earned just because their user agreement says they can.

Actually - paypal never keeps the money. They may freeze your account, and keep your money for up to 6 months, but you eventually get it back.

Also they have been sued in the past for this same reason, and I think that they've changed up their TOS just enough to keep them out of trouble for continuing to do it.

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/16751.html

[Shafiq Kamal]

They enjoy interests on the hold money. It's one of their tricks. If you have lots of money in your account, then open lawsuit against them and make an example. Be courage and first to make this example. You will also get lots of publicity. That mean you will be beneficiary too. And we will be glad to publish article with your website link in our blogs about your courage. Go ahead and sue them. Make an example.

[profitclinic]

It's actually impossible for most people to trade using a PayPal business account without being in technical breach of its Acceptable Use Policy, which is deliberately vague, sweeping and poorly drafted.

Combined with its basic practice of not letting its right hand know what its left hand is doing, and saying nothing in case it gets sued, there's a compelling argument for some kind of class action against PayPal, in the right jurisdiction, on the basis of restraint of trade, tortious interference with business or unconscionable conduct by a big business against small businesses (abuse of marketing power).

John Counsel

[Thomas M.]

Keep trying to contact them. They might need some more information from you to see if you are a "real business". They don't just do things to be mean. You need to blame this on the highjackers and scammers that ruine it for everyone else.

If you guys are thinking "PayPal took my money for no reason and now I have to sue them to get it back". That is just plain stupid. They do NOT do that. They are trying to cover their ass because of the real suckers out there. So ask them what they want verified and you will get your account back up and running.

I've been using PP since 2000 and have been through it all with them. They want you as a customer but they have to cover their ass too.

Let me tell you something about 2Checkout. You CAN NOT sell products on multiple domains with ONE account. I'm assuming you have more then one domain right? Then you need to open a fresh account for each domain. Even if it's a $7 report!

So think about that. And I'm tired of hearing a bunch of cry babies on here ..."PayPal got me... waa waa!... I'm going to sue them bla bla. Some of you need to grow up. Are you really going to let this little freeze blow your whole reputation with PP?

One time I had 31k froze. I knew why, I handled it and the the account was back to normal. Now I have a designated Account Manager.

Realize they are at risk for your pleasure. There are 100 million PP accounts people. You will become an Elite client if you work with them. Send them a letter, introduce yourself and let them know you mean real business with them. Call attention to yourself. They are normal people too.

ok I'm done. Sometimes you guys tick me off.

[Amitywill]

Scott I feel really bad for you. I've heard about
this sort of thing happening quite a lot with paypal.

I use paypal but it's always a good idea to get your
own merchant account. As some people have already
said 2checkout is very good.

Don't take this lying down, nobody should be able to just
take your money and not give you any reason. I'd contact
a lawyer if I were you.

Good luck.

Will cooper

[Best Biz Ideas]

Scott,

Unfortunately, this happens all the time with paypal (and ebay). They don't need a reason and they don't have to explain themselves.

We had a slightly different situation with ebay/paypal a few years ago involving a counterfeit product from a bad seller and were completely blown off by both ebay & paypal. We got our $300+ refunded ONLY after contacting the District Attorneys in the states of California and Nebraska. They were well aware of the problems with paypal. It took a lot of time and effort, but we got our money back.

It seems paypal's policy is to grudgingly deal with squeaky wheels and ignore everyone else. If you really feel you have a case and are willing to invest the time necessary, I'd contact the DA's in your home state, CA, and NE and see what happens. You will probably find that the DAs have received numerous complaints about the same problem.

Regards,
T.

[Droopy Dawg]

hey Scott that's terrible news man I feel for you and others that have gone thru this.

I guess the lesson that we can all learn is to do your due diligence NOW, and find a "back-up plan" in case Paypal decides to randomly close you/our accounts.

2checout sounds real good right about now...

[Stacey Wockenfuss]

I'm sorry to hear about your Paypal issues. That really sucks. I've had an account for a little over 5 years now with a few minor issues. I have also worked with several internet marketers who have had their accounts frozen. Its usually because the unusual amount of transactions and/or you are selling digital products. A couple things I have learned

1) They will release your money after 180 days and they will release it sooner if you work with them. You need to be really diligent and get a contact over there at Paypal.
2) If you do a lot of transactions and you have a lot of money in your account, you can get your own account rep. Most people don't realize this, but if you are a bigwig, its a must. You can call them up when you are going to have an unusually large amount of transactions such as a product launch so there are no issues
3) I recently had an account hold but it was due to fraudulent activity (or so they claim). They just wanted to verify I was who I said I was and my street address.

Apparently Paypal doesn't like the fact that many of us are going wireless (don't have a landline). But it was cleared up within a week. Theres still hope. Just hang in there and try and do your best to meet their criteria. You will most likely get your money back eventually but if they still don't want to help you, then take legal action.

Stacey

[helpmePPC]

Originally Posted by WinsonYeung

Wow, is there anyway to file a dispute or lawsuit ?
if you need to take some action, you can by submitting a report to
Ripoff Report: By Consumers, For Consumers

No one should use that website. That guy is an extortion artist who uses unethical SEO tactics to beat your name up. It destroys a lot of businesses and people. That company does nothing but damage. The little help it does do is far out-weighed by crushing the little guy with their unethical SEO methods to hurt other people without proof.

Look up the owner of that site.

[koolwarrior]

Have you ever noticed that even the GURUs don't use Paypal for those $1997 courses they pump down your throat?

Gee, I wonder why?


You're charging for copyrighting services, dude...and a pretty penny at that. Why the hell would you use paypal for that?

You're making them pay for an product that can't be accessed after they pay. If you're going to charge for something they can't get right away, it better be a physical one...or else they'll shut you down thinking you're laundering money.

Hell, if I were running a CC-like service, and I saw thousands of bucks flowing thru, and no one's getting a thing (physical/digital), I'd shut you down too, to be hoenst.

I wouldn't want the feds raiding my office over something someone was doing that NO ONE knows about.

[Scott Murdaugh]

UPDATE:

After HOURS of talking to several Paypal reps, here's the verdict...

Their fraud team has determined that I pose a "high risk"...

I went all the way up the customer service chain. The lady I talked to was nice and understanding...

I said "So, you're telling me that after 5 years of being a loyal customer... Who stays well within acceptable use policy, who has had thousands of dollars every month going through their account for years without issue, that you're shutting my account down and not even giving me a reason why?"

The answer was basically "Yes, that's right".

I had her manually go through my account activity for the last few months. I asked her to point out anything that may have raised a red flag. She said the account looks perfectly normal... No disputes or claims...

So I asked who to talk to about reviewing my account and being considered to have it reinstated...

The answer was that the decision is made by the fraud team, and that all decisions are final.

Bottom line, I am permanently banned from Paypal for no apparent reason...

I found out through some research that all accounts are manually reviewed by fraud specialists, and the ultimate decision is made by an individual.

There is no way to contact these people for a reason why.

I HIGHLY recommend everyone who relies on Paypal to get a backup plan in place TODAY.

Believe me, Paypal accounts don't come any lower risk than mine. I wasn't doing anything even remotely "shady" and I have years of history with them. If you're thinking "it won't happen to me" don't bet on it.

-Scott

[Scott Murdaugh]

You're charging for copyrighting services, dude...and a pretty penny at that. Why the hell would you use paypal for that?

Point taken. I guess I learned my lesson.

[cosmokid]

Thanks for sharing your experiences here, Scott. So sorry that this happened to you. I'm seeing this on a few webmaster forums lately - often to people who are "high rollers" who move thousands through their account each month. Absolutely sucks since you weren't doing anything wrong. Sometimes I feel like using a lot of these third party services is like dating a woman with PMS. One minute everything is fine, the next minute she might flip out on you for no reason! (And I can say that because I'm a girl!)

I'm concerned about vendors who are using the Rapid Action Profits script to pay their affiliates. I promote some great products that pay out using that script - payment goes instantly to your Paypal account. I'm wondering if this is going to raise too much "attention" to my account, although I've never had problems with Paypal before. Guess it pays to have lots of backup plans.

Jennifer

[Sheryl Polomka]

Scott - been there, I had this happen to me last year. Same thing - 'we are parting ways' and it didn't matter how much I tried to sort it out with them they just wont listen. Once they make up their mind that they are 'parting ways' then they don't listen to a word you say.

I used alertpay for a while, but I was doing subscriptions and they just didn't work for subscriptions. I haven't tried any other payment processor but there was a good thread on here yesterday about Paymate - they are supposed to be very good.

It sucks that they can just keep your money, this happened to me in November, my 180 days isn't up yet, but I refunded most of the money in there and some of my customer paid me again through other methods.

There are ways to get around it and get yourself another Paypal account - unfortunately they are the biggest and most used processor. I also found while I had alertpay as my processor my sales really dropped.

I use PayDotCom now for all my Paypal buttons - they are less likely to stuff you around when you are going through their 'best customer' with PayDotCom. That does mean a little more fees involved with each payment received as you have fees from PayDotCom and Paypal, but its worth that extra protection I think.

I know when it happened to me that there were people that just didn't believe me that I had done nothing wrong. I actually had one customer that was really nasty and assumed I was a scammer because of it and she actually started contacting my other customers and bad mouthing me, I had a heap of customers then asking for refunds all because of this one customers reaction to my paypal account being 'limited'. It really can ruin your business, my business is still not back up to where it was in November before this happened.

So all those sceptics that think he must have done something wrong - no he musn't have! Paypal do this and they can do it to anyone and you don't have to do anything wrong for it to happen.

Good luck Scott, I hope you get your business back on track quickly.

Sheryl

[Sheryl Polomka]

Oh, I just wanted to add, in my case I was using Jon Ledgers $7 script, which according to Paypal is a Pyramid Scheme, this was their reasoning anyway. They didn't care to listen when I tried to explain to them that it wasn't a pyramid scheme in any way.

So anyone using the $7 script may want to be careful too.

[kazute]

Paypal Suck, they are forever costing me money, Bast#rds

[Irmscher]

Originally Posted by Razer Rage

Ejunkie would be one.

I am with E Junkie but their services need money processing base like PayPal or Google checkout.

I'd stick with PayPal anyway because most of customers using paypal and you can lose alot of sales if you ignore paypal.

But anyway your story freaks me out abit. What I use to do is withdrawing money each and everytime it reaches $500-700 mark. This way I can fell alot more secure than leaving my PayPal accont with few grands on it

Thanks for the story

Andrew aka Irmscher