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Selling Online With No Squeeze Page, No Salesletter, And More - And It Works

by jamawebinc
29 replies
I had another thread about successful online marketers who sell without using bonuses and deadlines.

I gave 4 examples and some background about how they don't follow what most of the well known names of internet marketing teach. It seemed like it would be better as it's own thread...so here it is

4 very successful and well known people who sell products online but do not use...

Squeeze pages
Traditonal salesletters
Bonuses
Deadlines
Some don't even use a guarantee

Ken Evoy of Sitesell. He uses pages and pages and pages of copy, no 1 page salesletter. No squeeze page.

Bill Harris uses more of a salesletter, but no deadline or bonus. No squeeze page and he is a very advanced internet marketer who really doesn't sell to the "how to make money online" crowd

Jakob Nielsen - very well known for his work on usability. He doesn't use a salesletter at all to sell his products which are PDF reports. They are rather high priced for the length of the reports. No bonus, no squeeze page, no deadlines. No guarantee

John Reed sells books from a very "ugly" website with no deadlines, bonuses, squeeze page at all. and no salesletter.

these 4 people are never mentioned as "snake oil salesmen" or the like. People may disagree with their writing style or even their information, but unlike many direct marketers who sell online...nobody thinks they are "hustlers" or the like.

Any comments are appreciated.
#online #page #salesletter #selling #squeeze #works
  • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
    It's absurd to assume that success demands one set way of doing things. This very mainstream notion is an excellent premise for selling "how to" information but it's just not the way of the real world, as you've pointed out here.

    I'm sure there are hundreds (thousands) of other highly successful entrepreneurs who don't even know the many things they are "supposed to be doing".

    BTW are you talking about Bill Harris the therapist - Holosync?

    I'll add that I actually started seeing real success when I gave up on the idea of any "guru" putting his arm around me and parading me to his list ala many of the golden boy success stories of 2006. I was hung up on the idea of being accepted and following accepted methods.

    When I accepted my own creativity and power I realized new levels of achievement. I think it's BETTER to find one's own entrepreneurial way and not try to duplicate every 1-2-3 step in the "expert method".
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

      It's absurd to assume that success demands one set way of doing things. This very mainstream notion is an excellent premise for selling "how to" information but it's just not the way of the real world, as you've pointed out here.

      I'm sure there are hundreds (thousands) of other highly successful entrepreneurs who don't even know the many things they are "supposed to be doing".

      BTW are you talking about Bill Harris the therapist - Holosync?

      I'll add that I actually started seeing real success when I gave up on the idea of any "guru" putting his arm around me and parading me to his list ala many of the golden boy success stories of 2006. I was hung up on the idea of being accepted and following accepted methods.

      When I accepted my own creativity and power I realized new levels of achievement. I think it's BETTER to find one's own entrepreneurial way and not try to duplicate every 1-2-3 step in the "expert method".
      Yes that's the bill harris I am talking about.

      I agree with you in many things you posted. Especially the part about people having success online who don't even know what the "should be doing".

      I wrote started a thread on this a little while ago which touched on this topic. How most people online buy products from sites such as amazon. Who does not do the things taught by the people who sell to the "make money online" crowd.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
      Originally Posted by Tim Whiston View Post

      It's absurd to assume that success demands one set way of doing things. This very mainstream notion is an excellent premise for selling "how to" information but it's just not the way of the real world, as you've pointed out here.

      I'm sure there are hundreds (thousands) of other highly successful entrepreneurs who don't even know the many things they are "supposed to be doing".

      BTW are you talking about Bill Harris the therapist - Holosync?

      I'll add that I actually started seeing real success when I gave up on the idea of any "guru" putting his arm around me and parading me to his list ala many of the golden boy success stories of 2006. I was hung up on the idea of being accepted and following accepted methods.

      When I accepted my own creativity and power I realized new levels of achievement. I think it's BETTER to find one's own entrepreneurial way and not try to duplicate every 1-2-3 step in the "expert method".
      I think it's essential to find your own method of doing things. There is no right or wrong way. I think you'll find your greatest success when you break out of the mold of how a particular guru says something should be done and determine what's best for you and your business based on your results with a particular method.

      Kevin
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    so - why start another thread on the same topic?

    Off line, there are companies that use catalogs, and others that use the sales letter approach. It's the same online.

    It's seems you just are not sold on the direct marketing style. I've been down both paths - good luck but I'll stick to my squeeze pages, oto's, list building, sales letters, etc.
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    -Jason

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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      so - why start another thread on the same topic?

      Off line, there are companies that use catalogs, and others that use the sales letter approach. It's the same online.

      It's seems you just are not sold on the direct marketing style. I've been down both paths - good luck but I'll stick to my squeeze pages, oto's, list building, sales letters, etc.
      I started this thread because I wanted to discuss the 4 people I mentioned separately from the topic of bonuses and deadlines. I started with the topic of deadlines, but then saw I was expanding and wanted to hear what other people thought about the other 4 names I mentioned.

      I too have been selling online for about 10 years. I know how the direct marketing style can work. But then what would you say to someone like jakob nielsen or john reed. You are doing it wrong?

      I suppose you could say that, but we don't know their sales numbers to know if it's true or not.

      I assume Bill Harris has a reason for not using bonuses or deadlines. The guy is too smart a marketer.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    In your other thread you were asking for proof, etc... yet you have not yet used your own experience as an example. Which leads one to believe you don't have any actual real experience to back up your beliefs on which method works best.

    I struggled for years trying to get e-commerce sites to generate any sort of real income. I started 10 years ago.

    I was profitable from DAY ONE when I put up my first squeeze page and autoresponder series.

    I launched some review sites a few weeks ago, and was turning a profit on them within days.

    As an affiliate, I've sent traffic to online catalogs for supplements, and to "mini-site" style sales pages / domains for 1 single supplement. I made a TON more sales with the second approach(same keywords, same type of product).
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      In your other thread you were asking for proof, etc... yet you have not yet used your own experience as an example. Which leads one to believe you don't have any actual real experience to back up your beliefs on which method works best.

      I struggled for years trying to get e-commerce sites to generate any sort of real income. I started 10 years ago.

      I was profitable from DAY ONE when I put up my first squeeze page and autoresponder series.

      I launched some review sites a few weeks ago, and was turning a profit on them within days.

      As an affiliate, I've sent traffic to online catalogs for supplements, and to "mini-site" style sales pages / domains for 1 single supplement. I made a TON more sales with the second approach(same keywords, same type of product).
      I don't think I said which method works best. I was just pointing out that there are other very well known people who sell stuff online that do not follow the common themes here like OTO or Squeeze pages, etc.

      Jakob Nielsen has a HUGE following and writes a lot about how to sell more online. He even has columns on how to adjust offline writing for online and other similar themes.

      I don't doubt that what you are doing works. However, the impression I get is that people think this is THE way to sell online. The only way. And the names I gave, and their websites, show that it is not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim Whiston
      Originally Posted by jasonl70 View Post

      I struggled for years trying to get e-commerce sites to generate any sort of real income. I started 10 years ago.

      I was profitable from DAY ONE when I put up my first squeeze page and autoresponder series.
      Ah that's interesting. I missed the whole comparison between traditional e-commerce styles and direct sales approach.

      That's a great discussion on it's own merit.

      I've never tried the e-commerce, catalog style approach. As a buyer I note my own tendency to be less decisive when I have a ton of options - I may even jump from site to site before making an initial purchase through a shopping cart style system.

      Of course once I make an initial purchase I'm likely to return to that same e-commerce merchant again and again.

      I really think Amazon has mastered this model. Their site recognizes me, recommends what I like, even allows me to save stuff in my cart for later. I thoroughly enjoy shopping on that site and I think if I were going to try e-commerce I'd have to go all out like they have.

      Which means I'll probably never delve into that model. I imagine it would cost a fortune just in infrastructure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Ken Evoy started out with an ebook called "Make Your Site Sell". He did it with a direct marketing sales page.

    What Ken did that has made his fortunes was to utilize affiliates back when the whole affiliate approach was fairly new.

    He started expanding his "Site Sell" company with other products that complimented each other and took his best affiliates to promote the new products and then they became "super affiliates".

    Like Jason,
    I struggled for years trying to get e-commerce sites to generate any sort of real income.
    I too tried my hand at traditional "storefronts" online but I didn't see real progress until I started using the methods you're talking about,

    Squeeze pages, Traditonal sales letters , Bonuses, Deadlines

    Oh, Ken Evoy also used Deadlines on his affiliates. When you signed up back then he had an affiliate section that kept track of the leading affiliates based on their sales and if you didn't reach a Quota by a certain time, you were dropped.

    This gave the Super Affiliates more incentive knowing that there would only be a limited number "allowed" to sell.

    Just because we may not see these tools being utilized does not mean that they are not using them.

    If I'm writing sales letters and putting bonuses on them to sell Amazon stuff doesn't Amazon benefit from my sales letter?

    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Matthew Maiden View Post

      Ken Evoy started out with an ebook called "Make Your Site Sell". He did it with a direct marketing sales page.

      What Ken did that has made his fortunes was to utilize affiliates back when the whole affiliate approach was fairly new.

      He started expanding his "Site Sell" company with other products that complimented each other and took his best affiliates to promote the new products and then they became "super affiliates".

      Like Jason, I too tried my hand at traditional "storefronts" online but I didn't see real progress until I started using the methods you're talking about,

      Squeeze pages, Traditonal sales letters , Bonuses, Deadlines

      Oh, Ken Evoy also used Deadlines on his affiliates. When you signed up back then he had an affiliate section that kept track of the leading affiliates based on their sales and if you didn't reach a Quota by a certain time, you were dropped.

      This gave the Super Affiliates more incentive knowing that there would only be a limited number "allowed" to sell.

      Just because we may not see these tools being utilized does not mean that they are not using them.

      If I'm writing sales letters and putting bonuses on them to sell Amazon stuff doesn't Amazon benefit from my sales letter?

      Matt
      Ok, I understand what you are saying about Ken Evoy. I followed him when he first began his sitesell site, which he based on his experience selling his PennyGold penny stock system.

      However, using deadlines on affiiates is not what I mentioned. I menitoned that he doesn't list a deadline on his website.

      He doesn't say - Site Build It Will increase in price if you don;t purchase your copy by XX day. or SiteBuildIt Will sell out soon, so get yours today...or any scarcity tactic.

      Which is very different from most of the known marketers.

      And you mention traditional storefront. I don't think any of the 4 names I mentioned has a traditional storefront. The closest may be John T Reed.

      Jakob Nielsen on his NNgroup site where he sells his reports has a single page with sections such as "Summary" "Who this report is for" "Table of Contents" and that's how he sells them.

      Bill Harris is the most Direct Salesletter of the bunch

      And Ken Evoy Is basically selling 1 product.

      So, no storefronts there.

      About selling amazon stuff with bonuses - I suppose they benefit, though I'm not sure of your method of using bonuses to sell their stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adaptive
    Interesting topic. If you're referring to John T. Reed the real estate guru ranker, I see both him and Jakob Neilsen as selling themselves as experts, consultants, gurus and authors. I'm not sure how relevant their sales techniques would be to someone selling information products that are not based on the seller's long term career as the expert in their field.

    Regards,
    Allen
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Adaptive View Post

      Interesting topic. If you're referring to John T. Reed the real estate guru ranker, I see both him and Jakob Neilsen as selling themselves as experts, consultants, gurus and authors. I'm not sure how relevant their sales techniques would be to someone selling information products that are not based on the seller's long term career as the expert in their field.

      Regards,
      Allen
      I can what you are saying about advertising themselves as experts, moreso with Jakob Nielsen as he advertises his conferences alot. But he does have quite a number of PDF reports for sale at his site.

      John T Reed is strictly an author who writes books and sells them. He never advertises a service product or a seminar.

      But couldn't you say the same about many of the big name guru's?

      A live 2 day seminar seems to be all the rage now where people pay $5000 per seat or even more. Look at Eben Pagan's live seminars for his altitude and his double your dating stuff.

      It seems the live seminar is now a standard and is the ultimate backend (most expensive product in the marketing funnel)
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        I can what you are saying about advertising themselves as experts, moreso with Jakob Nielsen as he advertises his conferences alot. But he does have quite a number of PDF reports for sale at his site.

        John T Reed is strictly an author who writes books and sells them. He never advertises a service product or a seminar.

        But couldn't you say the same about many of the big name guru's?
        John T Reed doesn't even invest after some of his houses went to foreclosure. lol

        He uses negative marketing to make his stuff look good. That is why he has lists of other marketers with bad ratings on his site.

        I wouldn't be putting him up on a pedestal.
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        • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          John T Reed doesn't even invest after some of his houses went to foreclosure. lol

          He uses negative marketing to make his stuff look good. That is why he has lists of other marketers with bad ratings on his site.

          I wouldn't be putting him up on a pedestal.
          Yes, he has pages where he points out other investors he does not like and tells why, as well as a few that he does like. However, this was not done as a plan to get search engine traffic when other people searched for those people on search engines.

          He does have a large following, and a high traffic website, and many books that he sells and does quite well for himself.
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  • Profile picture of the author esr
    It doesn't seem fair to compare Amazon to most of us home based business owners. They have millions of dollars to test with.

    But, it is absurd to assume that only one thing will work. I say this primarily because I was making a good living back in the early days of the web. In fact, I remember the day that "follow-up" autoresponders were introduced by this company with a weird name of Aweber.

    So, is it safe to say that one CAN make money online without using follow up a/r's? Yes, because many did it before they were available.

    And that's just one example.

    BTW, I remember Ken Evoy from the Penny Stock days. Jeez, his stuff drove me crazy! I'd never read such long winded copy. But, obviously it works for him. He's VERY successful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    jamawebinc,

    I see what you are saying about some of the big companies but I think it just looks like they don't.

    On the surface they don't appear to be using these methods but I believe that somewhere along the line between them and the customers they have to.

    I realize that some of them now don't have to rely on much more than their name but that was from years of branding it.

    Ken Evoy is well known now and so is his Site Sell brand but as you know, it took time and marketing to get there.

    To be branded like Amazon and McDonalds takes a huge weight off of trying to get noticed but they didn't always have their names to fall back on.

    After all, McDonalds just sells hamburgers but they have become bigger than that due to their shear size.

    It is true that you don't have to take those paths of building a list, and so on but you have to admit that it makes it a little easier to get stuff sold.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Matthew Maiden View Post

      jamawebinc,

      I see what you are saying about some of the big companies but I think it just looks like they don't.

      On the surface they don't appear to be using these methods but I believe that somewhere along the line between them and the customers they have to.

      I realize that some of them now don't have to rely on much more than their name but that was from years of branding it.

      Ken Evoy is well known now and so is his Site Sell brand but as you know, it took time and marketing to get there.

      To be branded like Amazon and McDonalds takes a huge weight off of trying to get noticed but they didn't always have their names to fall back on.

      After all, McDonalds just sells hamburgers but they have become bigger than that due to their shear size.

      It is true that you don't have to take those paths of building a list, and so on but you have to admit that it makes it a little easier to get stuff sold.
      I agree with you on the branding of the large companies and how that makes it easier for them.

      But your last sentence is the one I'm not sure about...

      Does it really make it easier to get stuff sold or is that just the mantra that is repeated? If so, why aren't the names I mentioned using those marketing tactics?

      For example, many people say you must give away a lot of free stuff to your list and develop a relationship and keep giving them great content and eventually they will buy from you. Now I don't have exact numbers on this...but I know from my experience...it works better for me when I just send them emails that sell em without giving em any content or any "how to" info for free.

      I get more unsubscribes, more complaints, and more sales. So If I listened to the mantra of give a lot of free info to help them develop trust in you and then they will buy from you...I'd be getting a ton of people thanking me and nobody buying from me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        For example, many people say you must give away a lot of free stuff to your list and develop a relationship
        jamawebinc,

        The list building gives you more opportunities to build a relationship so that they will eventually trust you enough to buy from you.

        If I am already branded as trustworthy then I do not need to do this step.
        If I have big Golden Arches that everyone can recognize from miles around then I don't need to hand out brochures and freebies.
        But McDonald's still spends millions on advertising on t.v.

        We spend ours on PPC or other ways to get traffic.

        Amazon does not need hype when they are the only game in town.
        But they give out discounts and send me emails every time a new book in a genre gets in.

        I didn't specifically ask or sign up to be on Amazon's mailing list. I bought a couple of books from them and now I get the promotional emails tempting me with discounts.

        Macy's sends us snail mail discount brochures for the purpose of luring back into the store.

        I got a free book from Boarder's Books the other day from filling up my Club Card.

        Frequent Flier Miles, buy one get one free, I saw Jack from Jack In The Box on t.v. the other night standing in front of Burger King and challenging them to a fight, Budweiser doesn't really have to spend millions of dollars during the SuperBowl to remind me that they make beer...

        Again, I think that because we are here and seeing this stuff and talking about this stuff so much it becomes too much.

        I don't think every business uses every technique and tool but I know that they have to employ at least a couple of those things or they don't get anywhere.

        You can build a list of loyal subscribers without the long sales letter full of hype yes I agree but you need to find people and get them to your "store".

        The other thing that is not talked about here is the kind of people that are being targeted by these big launches full of hype and all of that other b.s.

        They are targeting impulsive people. People who react to that kind of marketing. You get them whipped into a frenzy and then tell them to pull out their credit cards.

        But I will agree that you do not have to use all of those ways you talked about but you have to utilize some of them, maybe more subtly or sophisticated but you have to use them one way or another.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    While I wouldn't qualify as a guru, and I have long sonce changed my methods. I was able to derive a decent amount of money without a website of my own, and no list.

    It's possible, but only if you don't mind working harder to earn less.

    That's my experience anyway.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      While I wouldn't qualify as a guru, and I have long sonce changed my methods. I was able to derive a decent amount of money without a website of my own, and no list.

      It's possible, but only if you don't mind working harder to earn less.

      That's my experience anyway.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Hi Michael.

      I'm not sure if you are pointing out that there are different ways to do things online, not just what most gurus teach or you think that I mean people the people who I listed don't have mailing lists.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        Hi Michael.

        I'm not sure if you are pointing out that there are different ways to do things online, not just what most gurus teach or you think that I mean people the people who I listed don't have mailing lists.
        The former.

        I'm supporting your idea that there are different ways (other than the "standard model") of earning money online.

        I was able to do it without a list, or a website of my own - and it was NOT affiliate marketing, CPA, PPC, or MLM.

        Just saying it's possible, if not easy.

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
    I agree with Matthew,

    The things you refer to are not essential at all, but they have been tested over many years to be powerful selling mechanisms.

    Scarcity, no matter which way you look at it, will always outsell abundance of a product. It's built into your brain, as it is mine, to feel that we must take action when the reward is dangled on a thread, with the fear of loss looming...

    ...and with the internet being the biggest distraction tool of our modern times, you will find that using scarcity will prevent many people from "deciding later, after I've seen what Sally is up to on Facebook and whether auntie Nora has tweeted on Twitter..."

    Bonuses, if done right, will ADD VALUE. Added value is what creates impulse buys, separates you from the competition and ultimately encourages the sale.

    Again, you can make millions from being a tight asse and/or delivering products in a plain old fashion, but I would imagine that using as many proven sales techniques as possible (and as appropriate) will help to boost conversions...

    ...providing that you're putting your product in front of the right people,
    ....and that you can't fall back on your brand for trust and proof.
    ...and that you use tactics with genuine reason, other than to simply "get the sale"

    For example, if you're limiting your product, what's the reason?
    If your bonus is worth $97, can you explain why? Where's the proof?


    And that leads on to the ultimate tool of persuasion: The reason why.

    /end of copywriting blurt
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

      I agree with Matthew,

      The things you refer to are not essential at all, but they have been tested over many years to be powerful selling mechanisms.

      Scarcity, no matter which way you look at it, will always outsell abundance of a product. It's built into your brain, as it is mine, to feel that we must take action when the reward is dangled on a thread, with the fear of loss looming...

      Bonuses, if done right, will ADD VALUE. Added value is what creates impulse buys, separates you from the competition and ultimately encourages the sale.

      /end of copywriting blurt
      I would agree, that what you are saying makes sense. But I'd love to see someone's test results to back it up.

      For example, if deadlines, or scarcity of some type will create a greater desire in the prospect to buy now - why don't the people I mention use them?

      Especially Ken Evoy and Bill Harris. They are very well schooled in marketing online and know all about these things, yet they choose not to use them...

      Does anyone have any ideas on why?

      Just about all information I have read on creating an offer, how to sell online, copywriting, etc has talked about giving the customer a reason to buy now. It is essential.

      However, these 2 very well schooled marketers do not use it. Are they sacrificing sales by not using deadlines? Like...

      - if You purchase Site Build It by March 31 you will receive a 15% discount
      - If you purchase Holosync by march 31 you will receive a free bonus of XXXX

      If this is such an essential part of helping to boost sales conversion rates, why do you think they do not use this strategy?

      Do you know of any other large name marketers that do not use scarcity?

      And the same goes for using squeeze pages, salesletters, etc.

      It seems that we have been trained, almost like a robot, when we are selling a product to first put up a squeeze page, write a salesletter that starts with Dear (target market) and include a signature, P.S. etc, find bonuses to add on to the product to create more value, create some type of scarcity.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Shafer
    My point of view online marketing is good and beneficent for all people if any body live in village and markets are very far for him then online marketing help him that time he can buy many things to online market this is my think
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  • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
    Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    Forging your own style from what you learn along the way.

    Works for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author maledwell
    I don't know what you're talking about exactly but want to ask you if you can help me get my web page up and making $?Affiliates seem the way to go for now but all I signed up for got lost in the shuffle and now I don't quite know what to do.Any suggestions or advice?:confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author Kunle Olomofe
    lol... if this is the John Reed page you meant John T. Reed Publishing Home Page that page really is ugly, i mean woah boy... very colorful with spinning mediocre art work, this stuff sells?

    lol... it wouldn't surprise me tho since there are always thousands perhaps millions of web users who don't care a hoot about what the IM gurus say they would care about...

    it's different strokes u no, and besides, there's always exceptions to every "rule" since as the saying goes "rules are made to be broken", so nothing odd here.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Kunle Olomofe View Post

      lol... if this is the John Reed page you meant John T. Reed Publishing Home Page that page really is ugly, i mean woah boy... very colorful with spinning mediocre art work, this stuff sells?

      lol... it wouldn't surprise me tho since there are always thousands perhaps millions of web users who don't care a hoot about what the IM gurus say they would care about...

      it's different strokes u no, and besides, there's always exceptions to every "rule" since as the saying goes "rules are made to be broken", so nothing odd here.
      LOL.

      Yes it is very ugly. But he even knows it and keeps it that way on purpose. Ben Hart is another one who has ugly pages and knows it...but they sell, so why change it?

      Yep, I agree with what you said about about people not caring what the IM gurus say they would care about.

      Like Jakob Nielsen said...Most people spend their time online on OTHER sites, not yours. Therefore they get used to those conventions...the ones used by the most popular sites.
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