Offline Clients - Are you in Business or a Middle Man?

[Kay King]

I've noticed an increase in threads and posts recently by those marketing offline who are not able to fill their contracts and blame "bad outsourcers".

I'd be interested in hearing from those successfully completing offline projects. Do you keep total control of the project or hand it off to someone else to be done? Do you routinely offer work you personally don't know how to do?

It seems marketers are promoting offline and accepting orders (and payment?) from businesses for sites and promotions the marketer doesn't know how to produce. This might work if you have a JV with a programmer but if you charge a business $1000 with the assumption you can hire the entire project done for less and pocket the difference, aren't you just a middleman?

Outsourcing writing and graphics may make sense but if you are outsourcing work you don't know how to do, you may promise more than is possible, underestimate the time needed or the costs involved. Unless you have a trusted team of outsourcers in place, this is a risky way to do business.

When you over promise and under deliver to a client it is your reputation that is damaged as you are the one who made the promises. If you take their check and don't deliver, be prepared to refund that money promptly or you could have a problem bigger than loss of reputation.

kay

[kdsm100]

Kay, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I've been struggling with just these issues as I've been researching and considering how to create an offline business - part of which will be helping brick and mortar businesses improve their online presence.

I haven't jumped in and done anything yet because I don't see how I can outsource stuff I really don't understand. Still mulling that one over.

I'll be interested in following this thread.

[GoGetta]

Hi Kay,

I have doing this a while and do both. I outsource and do my own jobs aswell. It is generally the graphics/design and programming I outsource.

I think the main perception of the offline niche is that you can bank huge checks easily and many marketers are trying to get a piece of it, that may be under qualified to do the job. We are dealing with real business owners that expect results so it is imperative to know what your doing!

I only believe you need online marketing expertise as the design and programming side of it can be outsourced. My advice would be to take this seriously, this is a business in my eyes and not a hobby. Many may disagree but this is how I started and how I have managed to gain more and more happy clients.

I started properly and professionally and only jumped in to getting clients when I was sure I could do the job I was selling! I set my business up as a business before offering my services.

This did two things:

1. Gave me a reason to make this work!
2. Showed my clients I am serious and also a fellow business owner!

This is important.

If you outsourcing, set that up before you get your first client. Test outsourcers with jobs for yourself first and get to know them as this will help massively.

Just my 2 cents!

GoGetta

[Michael Mayo]

Hi Kay,

Before I decided to start bringing offline businesses in to the online world
I sat down and created a list of what I was capable of doing. After the
first few jobs I began out sourcing to graphic designers and article writers
as sort of a test and to locate people that I could trust to get the job
done properly and on time.

I went through a few of each before I found a people that took pride in
their work.

I handle the daily operations of my business but I don't micro-manage it.

I outsource things that require too much of my time in order to over see
all my projects and also allow me time to attain new clients.

I have not been late one time after giving the client a date their site
would be ready nor have I allowed the outsourcing to get so close to the
wire that I had to panic in order to get the job done.

Normally I will pad the cushion a little so that if there is a problem I will
have time available to resolve the issues before the dead line.

Now I did have a couple of close calls in the beginning but I quickly
learned how to minimize them and prevent them from cropping up in the
future.

Anyone that offers clients some thing that they have not done themselves
is just asking for trouble. They may slide by a few times but when the
problem rears it's head repeatedly the person will surely soon be bitten by
it.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

[MichaelHiles]

I've been doing web development since 1994. I mostly outsource now (to onshore US resources), but I am the contracting party, so I am responsible for delivering the work. Blaming my outsourced resources doesn't cut it as any sort of moral or legal defense. I chose those resources, not the client. I will stand by my contract terms.

I see so many rank amateurs trying to do web development, using outsourced tools, dreaming of making thousands of $$ a month. And yes, PT Barnum was right. Talk enough game with enough lingo, some idiot is going to think you're a bonafide expert and pay you enough money to get your ass into trouble.

Internet Marketers who might have experience driving traffic using outsourced PHP-based scripts here and there does not equate to a competent, qualified development resource that should even remotely consider taking on offline work. There's a topic floating around right now about someone forgetting all about the client's email server before cutting over the domain to new hosting.

That kind of stuff will get you sued out of existence.

[Scott Burton]

Never promise to a customer, or prospective customer, what you are not 100% certain you can deliver.

I'll sometimes outright tell a customer I will have to find out how I can solve a request they make. Then I promptly get in touch with the people who do know how, and get reasonably firm estimates of time and costs. Then come back to the customer with the answers as promised. If I can't find someone to get me to a solution, I find out how close I can get to what the customer wants, and express to them what I can or can not do for their request.

[Mark Riddle]

Kay,

I understand what you are trying to say with your post.

However, it seems like the brush is too broad.

Most of the people I work with understand that knowing how to do a task isn't an advantage, many times it can be a hindrance.

Having the actual skills to lets say set up a website, or install a complicated script is what causes them to continue in the mindset of keeping hold of all project because they can do it better than someone they can hire.

This is the key difference of being self employed, or truly becoming a business owner.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be self employed.

Yet calling a business owner a middle man is less that a accurate assessment.

Take any small, medium or large business where the founder / owner doesn't personally build the product, sell or service the product; to view that as a middle man is not understanding the purpose of business structures.

There should be an understanding of the generalities of what is involved, and knowing enough about the subject to be able to qualify the skills and talents that are needed to perform a task.

Also to be able to identify people with the needed skills to work for you in those tasks and procedures.

One of the common traits that I find with new consulting clients is the lack of planing and organizing structures to create a successful model to manage growth.

I also see many threads talking about hiring someone for a low price and then simply wishing that the person is good.

That too is lacking an understanding of how to structure a successful business.

To build a successful business, thought focus and planing that creates systems to acquire, train and evaluate performance are the bedrock to sustainability and growth.

Mark Riddle

[stayfocused]

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

When I started marketing to offline businesses I had a rock solid web design guy that I had used for numerous projects in the past and he always over delivered for me. I figured he would also be my go to guy for designing sites for offline clients. We even discussed it numerous time.

Wouldn't you know it, the second client I got my web guy disappeared on me. No email, no IM, nothing. He just dropped off the face of the planet as far as I am concerned.

I was stuck scrambling around trying to find someone to replace him. I can design a basic website but the project was a little out of my league programming wise. But my web guy (if he choose to stick around) would of been able to handle it no problem

Always have a back up. Don't venture out there and get clients when 1 person in your system or supply chain can disrupt everything. Luckily Elance and rentacoder are around. I was able to find someone to take on the project withing 24 hours.

Always have a system in place that isn't dependent on 1 person. Or you will be stuck with a big check in your hand and scrambling to complete the project.

Now go get some clients

[Kyle Tully]

Kay I think you're spot on.

Last year especially there was some REALLY bad advice about the offline niche on this forum.

People claiming you didn't even know how to do ANY of the work...

... that you could just bank checks and then outsource everything.

There are a couple of problems with that line of thought.

First -- if you don't know what you're talking about you'll always be relegated to low-paying jobs. No business owner will hand you a check for $10,000 without you being a pro.

Second -- outsource resources are notoriously "hit-n-miss" and unless you've got established relationships with workers then it might take a few test runs before you find a reliable worker. Definitely not something you should be doing on your client's time/money.

Third -- these are REAL business owners with hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars invested in their business. Peoples jobs are on the line. If you don't get RESULTS then you're doing more than just being shady... you're potentially hurting someone's entire life.

Personally, because of the high level of service I provide and my technical background, I do 90%+ of the work myself. Only boring tasks such as directory submits and article writing are outsourced.

James Schramko put it best on another forum -- "Many of the 'kids' selling Offline products have never even worked in a job....."

That says it all really.

The bottom line is if you want to make REAL money in the offline niche you need to be able to sell what you're selling.

And to do that you need to have a pretty decent understanding of it.

And do to it ethically you need to know you can deliver on your promises.

Sounds obvious right?

You'd be surprised how many people simply ignore this fact.

[Adaptive]

Kay, thanks for emphasizing this important distinction.

When I first started consulting, I took on a multi-thousand dollar project with the assumption that I could find the necessary outsourcers to help me finish. I wound up having to refund the entire deposit and walk away with my tail between my legs. That really hurt!

I'm now taking on multi-thousand dollar projects that I don't bid on until I have 100% of the resources lined up. It feels much, much better to get to keep the money!

Regards,
Allen

[Kay King]

When I first started consulting, I took on a multi-thousand dollar project with the assumption that I could find the necessary outsourcers to help me finish. I wound up having to refund the entire deposit and walk away with my tail between my legs. That really hurt!

Ouch. Sounds like you learned the lesson well, though.

Outsourcing is fine but if you are guaranteeing work to an offline client you need to have your ducks in a row. After they hand you a check is not the time to say "now what do I do?".

kay

[Adaptive]

Yes, it did hurt. Thanks for the sympathy!

The thing is that I had done similar work before, but was sick at the time and underestimated how that would set me back. Fortunately I did get out of the situation and things have been going much better since I learned the lesson.

Regards,
Allen

[sevenish]

While it's important to understand what it is to perform the tasks that you're selling, there's also a vast difference between a good manager who knows how to make feasible proposals, set and manage a scope and client expectations as well as build and manage a project team ... vis-a-vis a good worker.

I've been both. I've spent more years as a project/program manager than as a worker, but I recently carried out an entire site redesign and SEO project by myself. If you're selling these projects though and aren't able to carry out the work yourself, you'd better have some good project + client management skills under your belt.

[Maria Gudelis]

Defining the scope of what clients want vs need vs can afford...then writing it down on paper and both parties agree...tis one thing that has provided solid offline consulting service.

That helps me make sure of no over promise, under deliver as it goes both ways - some clients want more than is in their budget.

ONe can outsource a majority of work as long as it is project managed well.

There are also a lot of big companies getting 'raped' by big name consulting firms charging $10k for a one minute 'infomercial ' style video that anyone here can do for $1,000 and still make a handsome profit...

It is truly astounding to see find out from a client a quote that I won a bid on vs what they were quoted by a 'larger' ad agency...

I'd say if one isn't confident to sell/start in offline business consulting...then jv with someone that has the skills so it is a win/win. That is how I did my first SEO jobs - finding the best to outsource/jv with.

so

[Joseph Then]

That's why I'm skilled in:
1) Programming
2) Hosting
3) Graphics design
4) Writing
5) SEO

I can choose to outsource, I can choose not to. Even if I outsource, they cannot play punk with me.

The only thing I don't want to do is selling, that's why I hire a sales guy.

[madison_avenue]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Personally, because of the high level of service I provide and my technical background, I do 90%+ of the work myself. Only boring tasks such as directory submits and article writing are outsourced.

Thanks for that great post Kyle. When you say you do most of the tasks yourself do you mean the the web design or the SEO? I can see why you would want to do all the SEO tasks, on page SEO and backlinks etc yourself, but doing all the web design yourself seems very time consuming. Are others taking this approach as well?

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by madison_avenue

Thanks for that great post Kyle. When you say you do most of the tasks yourself do you mean the the web design or the SEO? I can see why you would want to do all the SEO tasks, on page SEO and backlinks etc yourself, but doing all the web design yourself seems very time consuming. Are others taking this approach as well?

I use Wordpress for pretty much every site I create.

Got a few themes I use over and over again.

Got a simple system that lets me install and setup a bare bones site in about 10 minutes, which includes setting up all the WP plugins etc.

I take care of the information architecture, marketing/sales copywriting and general site setup, and I outsource header/mini-site graphics, article writing, backlink generation, directory submits, social media etc.

I don't do any "design" work. When you can outsource this for less than $100 and get really good work done it's just not worth the hassle of doing it yourself.

For a fairly recent $9,000 project my up-front workload was 3 days total.

That included setting up the website, researching and writing all the marketing copy/emails, and project managing a couple of outsource resources.

[madison_avenue]

Thanks for that reply kyle. This was a question I was thinking about a lot: what tasks should I do myself and which should I allocate to others to make the project as effective and hassle free as possible. Your way of working is very impressive and has been really useful.

[James Schramko]

Being a middle man looks appealing to the outsider however there are a lot of risks and 'leakage' involved.

Often the clients message gets distorted when you deal with third parties. Allow for things to go wrong when dealing with the lowest bidder or anyone who does not have to front the client directly when things stuff up.

(I learnt this in an old job)

The trick is to create a very solid system to handle the projects. Then you can be a project manager and still have input where you specialize.

I created a lead generation system that involves no outsourcing and very fast approval from the client. It almost makes the client do all the work and be willing to do it.

Once the job is won I get a designer to make the skins and I build the site. This si something I am very fast and proficient in.

The way I look at it is this - I can build the site and I know it inside and out. The designs can be be put over the top anytime by any designer.

Once you set these things up you can then focus on testing and traffic generation.

This is quite easy if you have some PPC and SEO knowledge. You can use systems to get a lot of this done such as automation tools like Winner Alert and Linkvana for links.

Outsource the small stuff like bookmarking, articles, submissions, directories etc... and you are in business...

You must also use proper legal structures, and have the right insurance. A good solid legal agreement is handy too.

Always under promise and over deliver and you will never go hungry!

[Dave Ryan]

Originally Posted by James Schramko

Always under promise and over deliver and you will never go hungry!

That's one of the golden rules of business... Also is the key ingredient in making your product/service "remarkable" - as in worth remarking about in a good way.

Dave

[GoGetta]

Originally Posted by James Schramko

You must also use proper legal structures, and have the right insurance. A good solid legal agreement is handy too.

Always under promise and over deliver and you will never go hungry!

James, right on! Many people don't think about this but this is vitally important. Again, as we are dealing with real life business owners here, if you mess up and don't have insurance you could be hit hard.

I know of someone that used an image from a free stock xchange site and got sued by Getty! Luckily he had insurance but if he didn't, BAM business dream could of well been over!

So watch out and do things properly!

GoGetta

[James Schramko]

Many years running a multi-million dollar company taught me plenty about business. Way too many people in the IM space are under experienced and when the gold rush is over they will wonder what happened.

Here is my observation.

Traditional 'media agencies' are micro niching down to a competitive price point at the same time as large organizations are coming along and providing very attractive solutions to small businesses at a hard to beat price and with high creditability/brand factor.

The backyard operators better 'corporate up a little' or they will lose. This space is going to be hotly contested just like CPA is now.

[Kyle Tully]

Right on James -- there are a LOT of businesses and individuals moving in on the local business niche.

There is still plenty of room for everyone, and there will be for some months, but soon enough it's going to get more competitive (from many angles) and you're going to need an edge.

Unless you're happy getting gigs as "Dave from accounting's little brother who knows about that web thing", and getting paid a few hundred bucks, then you're going to have to get serious.

(My own course will be moving in this direction for the upcoming 2.0 release -- more professional templates, forms, checklists and branded websites etc -- on top of all the sales & marketing training.)

I see this as a GOOD thing.

The people who shouldn't be in the market -- the guys looking for a quick easy buck and not delivering real value to business owners -- they'll get passed over in favor of more professional consultants.

More money for those of use doing it right. Better results for the small business owner.

[GoGetta]

Again James, Nail on the Head! : )

I agree that with all the bigger corporations now able to jump on the bandwagon with brand names and money to put together very attractive offers at decent prices will push those that don't take this seriously out in the near future!

I have known this all along as I worked as a salesmen for a big IM company and had a stupidly attractive package for peanuts. But we do have one thing on our side and that is expertise (in most cases) and the personal touch! This can go a long way in this business!

GoGetta

[MichaelHiles]

Bigger corps will never be able to compete in small, local markets.

Citysearch learned that lesson the very hard way.

People do business with people on a localized basis. Unless there is a real, tangible physical presence in the local market, you're not going to get 400 local businesses to sign on.

I've lived in small markets my whole life. While I work in an A market, I choose to live in D markets or smaller and commute. I've competed against large agencies and built large business serving localized markets.

There's no new rush to Mayberry. The same questionmark is floating around the heads of those who have dreamed of penetrating Main Street businesses now as it was 10 years ago. Same to be said for the people who dream of fiber optics to the household. The last mile is paved with the most gold. It's also the most difficult.

[madison_avenue]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Bigger corps will never be able to compete in small, local markets.

Citysearch learned that lesson the very hard way.

People do business with people on a localized basis. Unless there is a real, tangible physical presence in the local market, you're not going to get 400 local businesses to sign on.

I've lived in small markets my whole life. While I work in an A market, I choose to live in D markets or smaller and commute. I've competed against large agencies and built large business serving localized markets.

There's no new rush to Mayberry. The same questionmark is floating around the heads of those who have dreamed of penetrating Main Street businesses now as it was 10 years ago. Same to be said for the people who dream of fiber optics to the household. The last mile is paved with the most gold. It's also the most difficult.

That's a good point Michael. I feel there is also the intimidation factor. Small businesses can be intimidated by large impersonal organizations and there is nothing to beat talking directly to the person setting up your web presence.

[Jagged]

Originally Posted by GoGetta

I started properly and professionally and only jumped in to getting clients when I was sure I could do the job I was selling! I set my business up as a business before offering my services.

Exactly the steps I took....
I remember when the whole cash cow thing was hot & heavy a few months back...when what was being preached was "just get out there"..."take action"..."anyone can do this"...."just do it" !!!!
Many did just that...but the following day there were threads like..."OK, My First Client...Now What"....or "How do you set up an autoresponder" I just shook my head...thinking, ummm....ya should have known that before hand.

I followed pretty much the same path Jamie mentioned. Took the time to map out a business plan....understanding my strong points & weaknesses.....found reliable jv partners to fill in any voids. Then & only then did I go & approached clients...

I mentioned this all in the begining of the cash cow thread....that what I thought was best was to take the time to define your business & services, map out a plan.... and not just run blindly...knocking on doors. Comments back to me were: "I am over analyzing all this"...just do it!!

I'm wondering how many that did run blindly into all this...did get a few clients, but had a rude awakening come tax time....when they had to shell out a large sum of money on taxes for all that "easy money". How many planned for that?

Good OP to point this out Kay, thanks...

GoGetta & James with "spot on" advice as usual...thanks guys.

Ken

[James Schramko]

I have watched reachlocal moving in on PPC here.

[Marcus Paul]

I do a lot of offline, but James is right, the big media agencies are trying to diversify their online strategies for clients.

The good news is that they are still finding their way...in other words they are pursuing models that only yield results for certain markets. They seem to lean on online social outlets that are not proving to do much more than build brand awareness.

I have won clients that have worked with agencies before, and won them because I dug into the details and spoke about validating ROI. Agencies still tend to be vague about ROI (unless it is PPC) and clients need more than that right now.

I have had an agency contact me about a job to bring my knowledge in house. I would guess many agencies are doing this.

The answer is to continue to perform and produce results. Your client won't fire you if you are helping them achieve their goals. And yes, it will still be possible to be cheaper than most agencies when they make their way into this space.

[James Schramko]

True stuff,

We will always have an angle. It is hard for a bigger company to offer a high level of expert service because they will have staff and staff turnover etc.....

I notice a lot of established marketers are now "discovering" this market and throwing the spotlight on it for all to enter as well.... I think it is going to be mined from every angle.

[JonathanBoettcher]

I think you need, at minimum, to know what is involved in a project before you take it on. You don't need to necessarily know how to do it, but you need to know what's involved.

I recently took on a project that I knew wouldn't be that complicated but I had no clue how to do it. I simply gave myself a long lead time (in terms of the deadline) so that even if my first outsourcer screwed up I would have enough time to get someone else to do it. Worked out fine, I overdelivered for the customer (done way before deadline) and now they're sending more work.

I would never quote on something I have no idea what's involved though... I would always say let me get back to you...

[Kevin AKA Hubcap]

It may just be me but "middleman" seems like a loaded word.

That being said... regardless if you do everything in-house or if you outsource the end result should be value to your client.

As we all know there's a different roads you can take to reach the same destination. One is not necessarily better than the other.

There are many businesses that are "middlemen". Some of the more familiar ones are real estate brokers, general contractors, and stock exchanges.

It might surprise some people to learn that the LCD display they use everyday in their business isn't built by the company whose logo is on it. This is true of numerous products in numerous markets.

For those warriors who choose do to all the work themselves ...why?

Do you thing there is nobody else available to do this work?

By using leverage (other peoples skills and experience) you can increase your revenue (both gross and net) and free up your time for tasks that will grow your business.

I think we've got to get out of this mindset of "I do everything" and start thinking more like a business by putting people, systems, and procedures in place.

Just my .02

Kevin

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by James Schramko

True stuff,

We will always have an angle. It is hard for a bigger company to offer a high level of expert service because they will have staff and staff turnover etc.....

I notice a lot of established marketers are now "discovering" this market and throwing the spotlight on it for all to enter as well.... I think it is going to be mined from every angle.

The funny part is that "this market" has well-entrenched, knowledgable players in every geographic area that have been doing it for a very long time to a very great degree of success.