New Clickbank color coded risk tier accounts

by Brandon Sean 337 replies
Just logged in to my clikbank account and I see a new notice from clickbank

You can read more about it here
Refunds and Chargebacks

Taken directly from this page

The new risk tiers are composed of 6 color-coded tiers, each with an indication of the risk management level for the account:

Violet Tier – Lowest risk account, great performance, exceptional customer satisfaction
Blue Tier – Low risk account, great performance, strong customer satisfaction
Green Tier – New or Good quality with good customer satisfaction
Yellow Tier – Some risk issues, these should be identified and corrected
Orange Tier – Major risk issues which must be improved, account termination potential
Red Tier – Out of compliance with risk standards and must be improved as soon as possible, at risk of account termination


and my account is considered Moderate risk :confused: hmm

Just updating everyone here.

Have a nice day

Brandon
#main internet marketing discussion forum #accounts #clickbank #coded #color #risk #tier
  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Ken Russell
    Yeah.. I was surprised when I logged into my CB account too.. What the hell? My main account even got a warning. No wonder everybody is migrating to different platforms..



    Uh oh... Additional fees. Allowance is already being enforced at a much higher percentage:

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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Id like to know how these clowns come to these conclusions. I have a product listed there that rarely gets refunds and its apparently "HIGH RISK"

    They can terminate my account for all I care. Cant wait to get outta there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wayne
      Just logged into my account, and am at moderate risk (green).

      If it helps to clean up their marketplace from products that have high refunds and chargebacks, it may be a good thing. Will have to wait and see how it works out.
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      • Profile picture of the author ShaneGorry
        Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

        Just logged into my account, and am at moderate risk (green).

        If it helps to clean up their marketplace from products that have high refunds and chargebacks, it may be a good thing. Will have to wait and see how it works out.
        Don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but they really could have done with a clean up a looooong time ago.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Just scanning over some posts on this issue both in this thread and elsewhere and it appears that everyone is assuming that Jan 2nd 2013 is the doomsday date.

          To recap, if you are "high risk" (or whatever they renamed it as) you are taxed 1 point per day from your assigned 100 points.

          If you are "Highest Risk" (or whatever they renamed it as) you are taxed 2 points from your assigned 100 points.

          That gives the "high risk" folk 100 days until termination and the "highest risk" folk 50 days until termination from the date of Jan 2nd.

          Therefore if you are High Risk you'll be given the boot early April. Highest risk will be given the boot in late Feb. That's based on the assumption that you mantain that specific tier throughout.
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      • Profile picture of the author silvacourses
        We have been warned too, but not due to any fault of ours.
        Sometimes the ClickBank information doesn't make it to our download web site. A woman recently tried 4 times before I noticed, and I had to refund 3 of the purchase attempts to her.
        Then a crook from Germany bought 5 of our products and asked for refunds on each, claiming they were the same as another he had bought. They weren't. He even threatened to sue ClickBank if they blocked him!
        None of that activity reflects on our products or our services, but we are being penalized.
        The good thing is, it isn't costing us anything yet - only if we get more refunds, then they will charge us more for the refund fees.
        Our ClickBank sales have been going down every year, now less than half what they were a few years ago. Too bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    My main account is green tier. not too bad i guess. But i don't do all that much on CB these days so it doesn't really matter too much to me.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    wow did yall check out the additional fees? These are crazy high.

    Refunds and Chargebacks
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    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      wow did yall check out the additional fees? These are crazy high.

      Refunds and Chargebacks
      So for high risk, some numbskull orders my product, then intentionally refunds, and I GET PENALIZED for it. These dickheads have lost the plot. That means a $97 product refunded costs me $106.

      One word David ---> DITCH.
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      • Profile picture of the author oniram
        I Got a "high risk" as an affiliate. Time to pack it in.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
          Originally Posted by oniram View Post

          I Got a "high risk" as an affiliate. Time to pack it in.
          See thats weird. How can you as an affiliate be responsible for the quality of the product? Or level of customer support offered?

          Unless of course, you're doing something sneaky .....
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

            How can you as an affiliate be responsible for the quality of the product?
            You can't.

            But the refund-rates typically vary hugely between different affiliates for the same product. Some affiliates are stupid enough to promote products by misrepresenting them. Those are, unsurprisingly, the affiliates with high refund-rates.

            In principle, it must make sense from ClickBank's perspective to have a way to hypothecate the costs of processing refunds and chargebacks so that the affiliates (and vendors) causing the problems are the ones paying.

            I'd want to do the same thing, in ClickBank's position.

            Wouldn't you?

            Wouldn't anyone?

            It's easily said with hindsight, but I don't know what's taken them so long.

            Some of the comments in this thread are quite extraordinary!

            Am editing my post, now, just to mention that I also fully agree with GSRR's post immediately below mine. The "MMO niches" are under fire everywhere, because of the demands of upline service providers, at the moment. Not only ClickBank - PayPal, 2Checkout and Plimus as well; and there'll be more, and more, and more. And there are, of course, reasons for that, unkind though they are to the good vendors in those niches. ClickBank is perhaps trying to handle an inevitable situation, not of their own making, with a little more flexibility and sensitivity to the realities of the situation than some are.
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            • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              You can't.

              But the refund-rates typically vary hugely between different affiliates for the same product. Some affiliates are stupid enough to promote products by misrepresenting them. Those are, unsurprisingly, the affiliates with high refund-rates.
              Which illustrates my point perfectly.

              Why should I as a vendor with a GOOD product, be penalized by a dopey affiliate blasting useless crap all over the web?

              As I've said in the past, most affiliates don't even bother to get in touch and establish a relationship, let alone buy the product and review it properly.
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              • Profile picture of the author oniram
                Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

                Which illustrates my point perfectly.

                Why should I as a vendor with a GOOD product, be penalized by a dopey affiliate blasting useless crap all over the web?

                As I've said in the past, most affiliates don't even bother to get in touch and establish a relationship, let alone buy the product and review it properly.
                -----------
                It also works the other way - why should an affiliate be penalized for a high refund product?
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                • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                  Originally Posted by oniram View Post

                  -----------
                  It also works the other way - why should an affiliate be penalized for a high refund product?
                  They shouldn't.

                  But if they did the right thing - as I've said numerous times already and BUY the damn product, and review it PROPERLY, they wouldn't have this problem.

                  So many affiliates just throw shit at the wall hoping that something might stick.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

                Why should I as a vendor with a GOOD product, be penalized by a dopey affiliate blasting useless crap all over the web?
                No reason, Johnny, but it's clearly right that that affiliate should be penalized. If your product had an unacceptably high refund-rate across all its range of affiliates, they'd be withdrawing it from the Marketplace. You are, however, clearly, in a niche which attracts more than its fair share of such affiliates. I don't blame you for that, but it's a market reality, nevertheless.

                I've edited my post above to add another paragraph, which I should have said earlier.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                  Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

                  Has your refund rate improved this this thread?

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...onth-sick.html

                  .
                  Thanks for asking. Sure has. I guess I mustve just been unlucky or it was coincidence?

                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  No reason, Johnny, but it's clearly right that that affiliate should be penalized.
                  Um, hang on? If the affiliate is penalized, does that penalty carry across to the vendor as well?

                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  If your product had an unacceptably high refund-rate across all its range of affiliates, they'd be withdrawing it from the Marketplace.
                  "across all its range of affiliates"

                  See, that makes sense, but that's not the case.

                  In any case, to be honest, I couldn't care less. Red, green, blue, yellow ...meh.

                  I've had my rant in this thread.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

                    Um, hang on? If the affiliate is penalized, does that penalty carry across to the vendor as well?
                    No - I'm acknowledging that that may be very unkind and unfair to you, as a "good vendor in a bad niche". But your "penalty" will be determined by your overall "risk-level", not by the affiliate's!

                    These problems are mostly not of ClickBank's making.
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                    • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      These problems are not of ClickBank's making.
                      Maybe not 100%, but certainly 50.. These problems stem way back, to the days when the staff of CB, obviously got "complacent".

                      If you let the dog in the house, you cant kick it up the backside because it sh1t on the rug.
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          • Profile picture of the author oniram
            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Depends on how you are promoting it I guess.
            No, just plain and simple blog post with affiliate links.

            If you're an affiliate I guess you will visit the CB market place to see if a vendor product has a "high" refund rate before you get your link. Not sure how this is really going to help CB.

            It might mean that CB is getting way to many refund request and is seeking a way to recover lost profits??
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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

            How can you as an affiliate be responsible for the quality of the product?
            Affiliates makes all sorts of outrageous and untrue claims in their emails. I see it all the time.

            Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

            Id like to know how these clowns come to these conclusions. I have a product listed there that rarely gets refunds and its apparently "HIGH RISK"
            If you're considered high risk already CB is essentially telling you to get lost. It appears to me most everyone is starting off at 'green / moderate' - the default for new products.

            Has your refund rate improved this this thread?

            http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...onth-sick.html

            .
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          • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Depends on how you are promoting it I guess.
            Yeah, but they need to compare your affiliate refund rate with the vendor refund rate... right? I mean.. how could you have a better refund rate than the vendor? I guess you could... but then you should be awarded a bonus!!!
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        • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
          Originally Posted by oniram View Post

          I Got a "high risk" as an affiliate. Time to pack it in.
          I'm right there with you, but it's not time to pack it in. They're just trying to scare people.

          I've already seen them make changes in the past hour!

          They re-labeled "high risk" to "unacceptable"... I mean.. whatever that means... But hey, we've got about 4 months...

          January 2nd is about 2 months away, and then you have 100 points (50 days for us "high risk" folk) after that (if we remain at "high risk").

          As an affiliate, there is very little we can do... and I hope CB will come to realize that. As an affiliate, let's just wait and see how the vendors clean things up :/
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      It looks like ClickBank is evaluating refunds from the both the vendor and the affiliate, and instituting new fees to weed people out.

      If your product generates a lot of refunds the new fees will force you out. If, as an affiliate, your referrals result in a lot of refunds it may not be profitable for you.

      I presume this will end IM product sales in ClickBank, maybe most products - although it remains to be seen what refund rate will result in an orange or red rating. Will a ____% refund rate be good or bad?

      Maybe Visa and MasterCard are starting to clobber ClickBank from their end.

      ClickBank has become too well known as the place to get products for free with its automatic refund policy, and now the company is trying to do something about it to raise the quality of its marketplace. The problem, though, isn't just product quality, it is that ClickBank allowed itself to become the land of the free.

      If you want to take out a competitor, especially a new one ....

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Well, the reality is that CB is just a middle man in most ways. Their merchant providers and PP or the FTC must be all over their asses for them to make these kind of changes.

    Those are some big additional fees that are going to send merchants running for the hills.

    Hell, even many adult/ very high risk merchant providers fees are less than CB now.

    I don't really care they don't mean much to me, but this will put the hurt on a lot of folks.
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    • Profile picture of the author GoodnightSweetRatRace
      I'm in the moderate risk, even though my overall refund rate is 6.1% which I think is pretty good. :confused:

      Anyway, I like this change, because this is gonna push a lot of scammy vendors out of the Marketplace and hopefully eventually improve the reputation of Clickbank.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
        Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

        ....this is gonna push a lot of scammy vendors out of the Marketplace and hopefully eventually improve the reputation of Clickbank.
        It's too late to improve the reputation of Clickbank. Give it a few years and they'll be scrambling to clean up the mess. By then it will be too late.

        Im ditching them, and I'm certainly no "scammy vendor". Quite the opposite infact.
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        • Profile picture of the author GoodnightSweetRatRace
          Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

          It's too late to improve the reputation of Clickbank. Give it a few years and they'll be scrambling to clean up the mess. By then it will be too late.

          Im ditching them, and I'm certainly no "scammy vendor". Quite the opposite infact.
          I was just about to write that this is unfortunate for some of the good vendors in the MMO niche on Clickbank. The problem is that most people who buy MMO products are aware of Clickbank and they know how easy it is to get a refund. (You already know this) So it doesn't matter how good your product is, you will still get refunds from the cheapskates.

          The innocent casualties from this new change are the good vendors in the MMO niche like yourself. Which sucks, so I don't blame you for leaving.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

            I was just about to write that this is unfortunate for some of the good vendors in the MMO niche on Clickbank. The problem is that most people who buy MMO products are aware of Clickbank and they know how easy it is to get a refund. (You already know this) So it doesn't matter how good your product is, you will still get refunds from the cheapskates.

            The innocent casualties from this new change are the good vendors in the MMO niche like yourself. Which sucks, so I don't blame you for leaving.

            I guarantee this has nothing to do with MMO, I'm not in the MMO niche (zero chargebacks), yet I'm still a moderate risk on CB. The main product I sold on CB was the same type of product that can be bought in offline stores (very legit product & not an ebook).

            I've been wanting CB to clean up their act (wishful thinking) because it could be a reputable site, instead they start up more of the same crap they already have, like letting vendors have optin forms on their CB squeeze page, I've even seen Adsense on CB squeeze pages (WTF?). :rolleyes:

            They are running that site into the ground & apparently don't care.
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            • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
              Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

              Why should I as a vendor with a GOOD product, be penalized by a dopey affiliate blasting useless crap all over the web?

              As I've said in the past, most affiliates don't even bother to get in touch and establish a relationship, let alone buy the product and review it properly.
              One solution is to request the 'Exclusive Whitelist' feature for your account which allows you to limit promotions to approved Affiliates only

              .
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    • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      Hell, even many adult/ very high risk merchant providers fees are less than CB now.
      Adult is 15% per transaction and mostly even 5% holdback for 6 months, how can you even compare that to clickbank?
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    They can set as many color codes as they like. Ditching CB was on my "to-do" list anyway. This has just bumped it up a few places.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim3
    Just another example of greed and profiteering.

    The whole thing stinks, if they want affiliates to do well they should stop being secretive about product refund rates and make them available, then nobody will promote the crap, all the dishonest vendors will crash and burn, the honest one's with poor products will go away and improv them, customers will get get better value for money, and affiliates will make a nice profit, and so will CB.

    As it happens I have not used my own account for a long time and it is considered 'moderate risk'
    My own interpretation is... moderate risk of being legally ripped-off in the future, needless to say I won't be sending CB any more sales.

    There are plenty more fish in the sea, let's all bale out and see what happens to CB then. I forsee another policy change PDQ.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    if you look at the chart on the page i linked to, it kinda seems like maybe the affiliates are also going to be on the hook for an extra charge back fee if they are labeled high risk.

    So maybe it has to do with the refund/chargeback rate you produce as an affiliate?
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    • Profile picture of the author vendor
      Good Post!
      My Vendor account has been marked as "LOW RISK" (blue).
      However, i feel it is high time to jump ship.
      The tide is turning on clickbank and it's only a matter of time until all that made them "clickbank" is gone.

      The future is very clear to me:
      Many Vendors and affiliates will move to EU based payment/affiliate tracking processors and in the future possibly Asian processors
      will also pick up on the US slack.

      That is the sound of inevitability
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  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Two things to note.

    First of all, this is for vendors.

    Second, green is actually good. "Moderate risk" sounds bad but it isn't. My guess is that green is the default for all accounts, including affiliate accounts where the person has never been a vendor. edit: have just checked 3 of my accounts and all are green.
    Actually, this is for vendors and affiliates. Affiliates will also now be charged fees for refunds and chargebacks depending on which risk category they are in.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    As of 12:16 PM - 11/5/2012 I'm officially dumping Clickbank, I'm done.

    I'm a Moderate Risk. I've never had a chargeback (not in IM niche) so that Green tells me they are full of $hit, I'm obviously low risk (no chargebacks). They can change the color daily.

    * Risk management tiers are assessed on a daily basis.
    This is the 3rd negative experience I've had with CB in less than a week.

    They can kiss my moderate a$$.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
    Same here - my affiliate account which has few refunds is the same moderate risk as you guys. Funny thing is I stay away from Internet Marketing & Forex to avoid refunds :-)

    Looking at my transactions I had:

    - 0% refunds in Aug
    - 2% refunds in Sept
    - 0% refunds between 0ct 1st - Oct 15%
    - 5% refunds between Oct 15 - present

    This is going to really put the internet marketing and Forex niches into hot water at CB and put CB into some hot water because as much as I avoid those 2 niches I do think that a big chunk of their revenue is coming from there.

    If they want this to work they'll have to look at data over a several month time period. I suspect the high refund rate I saw recently was due to server administration issues and people not getting their downloads from the vendor.

    It took the vendor a few days to work these issues out but customers rightfully upset requested their money back and CB granted it.

    Everything is working as it should be and somehow this is 'Moderate Risk'.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    It is strange indeed.

    One of my testing accounts has over 100 sales, four refunds and a chargeback yet it's considered to be in the "highest risk" category?

    Four refunds and a chargeback out of 100 sales I would say is pretty darn good on ClickBank..
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      It is strange indeed.

      One of my testing accounts has over 100 sales, four refunds and a chargeback yet it's considered to be in the "highest risk" category?

      Four refunds and a chargeback out of 100 sales I would say is pretty darn good on ClickBank..
      It depends on what the average is for that product, Josh, perhaps: if it's 2%, then your 5% might be high risk? (For my account, for anything I promote, 4 refunds and 1 chargeback out of 100 sales would be a disaster. It depends what you're promoting it, doesn't it?)

      Originally Posted by vendor View Post

      Many Vendors and affiliates will move to EU based payment/affiliate tracking processors
      Until their upline service providers start cracking down in the same way and for the same reasons as ClickBank's, 2Checkout's and Plimus's, maybe. If they're not already the same upline service providers, that is ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        It depends on what the average is for that product, Josh, perhaps: if it's 2%, then your 5% might be high risk? (For my account, for anything I promote, 4 refunds and 1 chargeback out of 100 sales would be a disaster. It depends what you're promoting it, doesn't it?)
        Ahh, I see what your saying. Thanks for the response, if that is the case then it does make sense.
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          I've previously tested payment processors for a product, where the only change to a sales page was whether it used ClickBank, Plimus, or PayPal. The ClickBank refund rate was astronomically higher than anything else.

          ClickBank can blame vendors and affiliates all it wants about refund rates, but at least part of the issue is ClickBank itself.

          .
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    Oh this should be fun...

    ...Gonna log into my accounts now and see what the crack is, but seeing what's been said here... It ain't looking good!

    James Scholes
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Ken Russell
    Yeah I'm done. InfusionSoft here I come.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    Chargebacks probably hurt much more than refunds, since it is putting Clickbank's merchant account at risk, so even if you only have very few chargebacks it might put you in the high risk category.
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  • Profile picture of the author bougalo
    I looked at my CB account this morning, and freaked out when I saw those "Risk management tier". One would hope that CB will send out emails to alert us of it first. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Someone needs to come up with a system where if someone refunds the product "instantly" then they get "instantly" locked out of the product.

    Would be hard to do for ebooks, but if you placed everything inside a members area which requires usernames and password then stress the fact that if they refund they WILL lose access immediately, could cut down on the serial refunders.

    All you would need to do is lock your amazon buckets and then the user would have to physically download all the content inside the members area (and some users don't know how to do this anyway).

    Whats the sense in someone refunding a product but keeping full access to it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Gaz Cooper
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      Someone needs to come up with a system where if someone refunds the product "instantly" then they get "instantly" locked out of the product.

      Would be hard to do for ebooks, but if you placed everything inside a members area which requires usernames and password then stress the fact that if they refund they WILL lose access immediately, could cut down on the serial refunders.

      All you would need to do is lock your amazon buckets and then the user would have to physically download all the content inside the members area (and some users don't know how to do this anyway).

      Whats the sense in someone refunding a product but keeping full access to it?
      I have a platform/product launching soon that does just that all automatically

      Gaz Cooper
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
    This is crazy...if anything is "high risk" it is CB's refund policy.

    Who wouldn't like to have their cake and eat it too?

    Make these digital products so they are disabled and unusable for the customer after they request a refund, and you will see the refund rates drop.

    Every sales page (in my niche) I have ever read for a CB product brags how the risk is all on the merchant, and if they buy and are not satisfied they get a full refund, and get to keep the product as well...in most cases.

    Some products that are on a membership site, or a software product get disabled.

    For PDF products or downloadable video products, the customer (and CB-charging us fees) wins, and the vendor and affiliate lose.

    They need to take a hard look at their refund policy - if they could disable PDF/video products somehow, this will stop the cyber-crooks from stealing digital products.

    Which is the REAL problem here, not just bad merchants and affiliates.

    I don't see CB being able to keep this policy, it will drive everyone away, they might as well close.
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    • Profile picture of the author vaital
      The Fall Of Clickbank

      Harming affiliates for the crappy products vendors come up with...
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        LOL, interesting to see the customary range of Warrior opinion, not that anyone's specific activities/positions ever influence their perspectives, of course.

        Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

        Why should I as a vendor with a GOOD product, be penalized by a dopey affiliate blasting useless crap all over the web?
        Originally Posted by vaital View Post

        The Fall Of Clickbank Harming affiliates for the crappy products vendors come up with...
        Still, never mind guys, at least you can agree on the fact that it's all ClickBank's fault, anyway. Never mind that PayPal, 2Checkout, Plimus and other processors are all encountering similar problems and situations caused by pressure from their upline financial service providers, and never mind that ClickBank's proposed solution looks rather more flexible, enterprising and realistic than most people's?
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Still, never mind guys, at least you can agree on the fact that it's all ClickBank's fault, anyway. Never mind that PayPal, 2Checkout, Plimus and other processors are all encountering similar problems and situations caused by pressure from their upline financial service providers, and never mind that ClickBank's proposed solution looks rather more flexible, enterprising and realistic than most people's?

          It's CBs fault, they have control over their policies.

          Nobody is forcing CB to allow easy refunds. Like I said earlier, there's entire BH forums that feed off of easy refunds in the IM niche.

          I've wanted to create IM products & constantly get request via WF PMs to create a specific IM product, the reason I haven't created that product is because of how easy it is to get refunds.

          I still might create an IM product later on, it will defiantly be a physical product (CD/DVD) shipped to the customers door (no downloads) with the buyer paying return shipping for any refunds.

          Easy refunds for digital downloads are the root of the problem.
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            It's CBs fault, they have control over their policies.
            Not entirely.

            Their policies are in direct reflection of policies laid out by credit card companies.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

              Not entirely.

              Their policies are in direct reflection of policies laid out by credit cards companies.

              I don't agree.

              Envato doesn't have half the problems as CB.

              CB creates their own problems by having poor judgement.

              The difference between Envato & CB is, Envato is hardcore about approving products before the product ever gets a chance to go live. With CB, If you have $50 that's good enough (fail).
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                I don't agree.

                Envato doesn't have half the problems as CB.

                CB creates their own problems by having poor judgement.

                The difference between Envato & CB is, Envato is hardcore about approving products before the product ever gets a chance to go live. With CB, If you have $50 that's good enough (fail).
                It's not really something to disagree with as what I stated was actual fact, but I appreciate there are other things which CB do have control of, such as moderation of products, which, if improved, would reflect more positively in the refund rates and the quality of their service as a whole.
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              • Profile picture of the author bwh1
                Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                With CB, If you have $50 that's good enough (fail).
                That WAS the case a while ago.

                I approved a product 2 weeks ago and had to provide access to the members area for the support guy to review my content.

                Also, he made me change some content at my buy buttons based on Credit Card rules, guidelines which are from the payment processors.

                So Clickbank is responsible that they had a mess in their marketplace in the past, I can agree to that.

                But the current changes are simply a reflection about what's going on on a bigger level. FTC and the Gov, CC companies etc.

                It's a given fact that they try to get rid (or lower) the trash you an find online. Too many people got scammed over the years, it was a matter of time till the rules got tougher.

                Lot's of good products will get hurt also because they are in the "wrong" category.

                Clickbank is just trying to follow the new rules and adjust their company, and I'm sure that ALL the other networks will do the same, sooner or later.

                By the way, I got an "Excellent" as vendor, guess I'm good to stay.

                G.
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                • Profile picture of the author PotPieGirl
                  I have 4 Clickbank accounts. Two are strictly vendor accounts, one is strictly an affiliate account, and my oldest account (since 2007) is both vendor and affiliate. Thankfully, as of this moment on this day, all 4 accounts are "Good" or better (she says with fingers crossed and knocking on wood).

                  As a vendor, all products are locked down inside a members area and access is immediately revoked if a refund is processed. (btw, all products are in the IM niche). My days of having people buy my ebook thru their own affiliate link and then instantly refunding (while keeping my product) are over. That, in my opinion, is the weakness with Clickbank and something that should be addressed.

                  MAYBE this new rating system WILL help with that. It is my understanding that affiliates have their accounts rated as well, correct? If so, doesn't that mean that someone who repeatedly buys stuff thru their own link and then instantly refunds will be removed from Clickbank?

                  If so, a big high-five from me to the folks at Clickbank!

                  As a vendor, I have seen the damdest things from customers. As someone posted earlier in this thread, another vendor had a potential "customer" email them to know exactly how to refund BEFORE they even bought it... that's nuts! But, that's how it is.

                  As a vendor, I know how to do all *I* can to lower refunds, etc so I'm ok with all that right now.

                  Every now and then I get some off-the-wall affiliate promoting in a totally crappy way that results in extra refunds. When I see this happening, I email my Clickbank account manager to give them a heads up and to work to see if this is an affiliate I can STOP from promoting.

                  Now, as an affiliate, I have found that the higher purchase to refund and chargeback ratio is NOT from IM-related products...it's from other products in totally different niches. Kinda baffling to me, but a trend I've seen year after year. When that happens, I rework how I promote it... or stop promoting it.

                  Also as an affiliate, I do buy products thru my own link to review to see if I want to promote and, of course, to check out the quality of the product. However, in all my years doing this, I have refunded a product exactly once - and that was because the vendor and I could not figure out how to get the videos to work for me (it was a totally video training course). The vendor refunded for me - I don't think I even requested it.

                  If I learn even ONE little thing from a product, I don't refund. And yes, sometimes all I learn is that "this product is junk"...lol! But hey, that's just part of being in the affiliate marketing business.

                  While I do think this new rating algo needs some tweaking and refining, all-in-all, I'm ok with it so far. If it cleans up the 'buy thru my link, get a refund, keep the product" issues, I am all for it.

                  Just my 2.5 cents.

                  Jennifer
                  ~PotPieGirl
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                • Profile picture of the author bwh1
                  Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

                  ^did you ask any questions..or did you just roll over and give them the key?..cos I would have wanted an explanation if that was me.

                  In fact this is the FIRST time I've ever heard of this even happening...as recent as 2 weeks ago you say?...wow. I mean, you have no reason to lie about it..but that really is news to me
                  Our product wasn't new, we did an update on the whole course and needed to change the price. We increased the main price and added 2 different levels of users with a higher prices.

                  I actually thought that it was a bit strange that the support guy ask for access to the course to review it, but as I have nothing to hide I didn't really cared and gave him his access.

                  And it happened just now, end of October, as we needed the new price for November 1st, all ads where out there with that date.

                  When I launched my product about a year ago, we didn't had those issues to get approval. Well, actually those where small issues.

                  If they did that they'd lose a FORTUNE..the shit on there is what is making the most money.

                  I need to watch what I say a bit on an open forum, but I have my suspicions as to why this has come into "force" I use the word "force" loosely with emphasis on the inverted comma's.
                  I sincerely believe that they don't have many alternatives. And the BS which sells most sells for how long??

                  This starts all a few years back when we started to see changes in Squidoo, Hubpages, Google started to bash good sites (and bad ones) etc...

                  Clickbank and other networks will HAVE to adopt, as I believe that there will come a day when the scam sites simply will disappear from the net, Federal Curt Order.

                  In Brasil, just yesterday they approved new laws which rules internet crimes and that includes people which scam others, selling goods and don't deliver what was offered (or nothing at all), stealing images from email accounts or social profiles and distribute them without permission etc...

                  Times are changing folks.

                  And I am happy to read Jennifers (PotPie Girl) post which is a merchant with IM products and has a good score. This shows that there is no general conspiracy, a downgrading of all IM related products in the works.

                  G.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

            My real guess is that CB is getting massive pressure from its merchant account. Just like 2checkout did not too long ago. Their underwriters basically told them to bail on IM products.
            This. Exactly.

            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            There's decent products on CB, you just have to dig to find them. Personally, I would be leery of most IM products, but that goes for all the web not just CB.
            This. Exactly.

            And that digging is both very time-consuming indeed and very worthwhile, but many (most?) affiliates don't bother to do it efficiently, in my opinion.

            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            It's CBs fault, they have control over their policies.

            Nobody is forcing CB to allow easy refunds.
            Ok, this is technically true, of course, but I suspect that the reality is not quite as simple as that implies. I think the reality is that the reason the FTC leaves ClickBank alone, in spite of some of the clearly very questionable tactics on many of their vendors' sales pages which would otherwise be clamped down on, is their refund policy. I think they (perhaps understandably) get away with a lot because of their refund policy and they've taken the view that for that reason, it pays to stick with it. So, ok, nobody's forcing them, but in the ever-tightening regulatory climate, they perhaps understandably feel compelled to stick with it. For myself, I'm glad they do, anyway. I promote about 30 items with almost no refunds at all, and sell many hundreds per month, partly because of that refund policy. As many of us here are aware, from our own figures, having such a soft refund policy doesn't necessarily mean that you have to get refunds. Obviously, it depends what you sell and how you sell it, but we all know this already.

            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Easy refunds for digital downloads are the root of the problem.
            This I just don't agree with. I think the root of the problem is some of the vendor and affiliate behavior prompted by easy refunds for digital downloads. Call me pedantic, but I genuinely do think that's significantly different. "Just saying".

            Of course, like everyone else in the conversation I have my own bias: I would never dream of promoting IM or MMO products from ClickBank, as an affiliate.
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            • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
              Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

              See thats weird. How can you as an affiliate be responsible for the quality of the product? Or level of customer support offered?

              Unless of course, you're doing something sneaky .....
              Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

              Depends on how you are promoting it I guess.
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              This. Exactly.



              This. Exactly.

              And that digging is both very time-consuming indeed and very worthwhile, but many (most?) affiliates don't bother to do it efficiently, in my opinion.



              Ok, this is technically true, of course, but I suspect that the reality is not quite as simple as that implies. I think the reality is that the reason the FTC leaves ClickBank alone, in spite of some of the clearly very questionable tactics on many of their vendors' sales pages which would otherwise be clamped down on, is their refund policy. I think they (perhaps understandably) get away with a lot because of their refund policy and they've taken the view that for that reason, it pays to stick with it. So, ok, nobody's forcing them, but in the ever-tightening regulatory climate, they perhaps understandably feel compelled to stick with it. For myself, I'm glad they do, anyway. I promote about 30 items with almost no refunds at all, and sell many hundreds per month, partly because of that refund policy. As many of us here are aware, from our own figures, having such a soft refund policy doesn't necessarily mean that you have to get refunds. Obviously, it depends what you sell and how you sell it, but we all know this already.



              This I just don't agree with. I think the root of the problem is some of the vendor and affiliate behavior prompted by easy refunds for digital downloads. Call me pedantic, but I genuinely do think that's significantly different. "Just saying".

              Of course, like everyone else in the conversation I have my own bias: I would never dream of promoting IM or MMO products from ClickBank, as an affiliate.
              Well... some of us affiliates just got stuck in this mess unknowingly. I mean, I was finally able to quit my crappy day job b/c of affiliate marketing with CB... then Google unleashes their EMD update and wipes out all of my sites from the SERPs because of how I was taught... I adapted and overcame... and now this? I promote IM products because I've grown to be very passionate about it as I am learning about it...

              Oh well... I just saw some disabled vet on TV with no arms and no legs, so I'm not going to start crying about our little issue here with CB.
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            • Profile picture of the author pepper81
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              This. Exactly.


              Of course, like everyone else in the conversation I have my own bias: I would never dream of promoting IM or MMO products from ClickBank, as an affiliate.
              But aren't you promoting "The Affiliate Marketing Schoolbook by Laura Burke" on your site Online Income Simplified ?
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      • Profile picture of the author Seriouscash$
        Originally Posted by vaital View Post

        The Fall Of Clickbank

        Harming affiliates for the crappy products vendors come up with...

        That's exactly the problem. Penalize the venders instead. Then maybe they'll stop making garbage.
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    • Profile picture of the author jacob hiller
      Originally Posted by Scott Strickland View Post

      This is crazy...if anything is "high risk" it is CB's refund policy.

      Who wouldn't like to have their cake and eat it too?

      Make these digital products so they are disabled and unusable for the customer after they request a refund, and you will see the refund rates drop.

      Every sales page (in my niche) I have ever read for a CB product brags how the risk is all on the merchant, and if they buy and are not satisfied they get a full refund, and get to keep the product as well...in most cases.

      Some products that are on a membership site, or a software product get disabled.

      For PDF products or downloadable video products, the customer (and CB-charging us fees) wins, and the vendor and affiliate lose.

      They need to take a hard look at their refund policy - if they could disable PDF/video products somehow, this will stop the cyber-crooks from stealing digital products.

      Which is the REAL problem here, not just bad merchants and affiliates.

      I don't see CB being able to keep this policy, it will drive everyone away, they might as well close.
      As far as disabling the product... it would be a real hassle on vendors to do it most of the time.

      Our platform "http://www.myebookmaster.com" disables refunders when they refund automatically via the API which is nice...

      I think it's important that everyone does it so people don't see CB, and think.. free product!...

      But for repeat offenders I would think that CB and CC companies try to stop predatory folks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert H Cwik
      Originally Posted by Scott Strickland View Post

      This is crazy...if anything is "high risk" it is CB's refund policy.
      ---cut---
      They need to take a hard look at their refund policy - if they could disable PDF/video products somehow, this will stop the cyber-crooks from stealing digital products.
      ---cut---
      Wouldn't a simple statement like "digital delivery, refund not possible" do the trick here? Put what you need on the download page with instructions how to download the content and that's it.
      It is assumed that having paid for the product, one has downloaded the content. If and how they use it, it's their problem.

      Purchase = consent to no refund.
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      • Profile picture of the author stephenwaldo
        Originally Posted by Robert H Cwik View Post

        Wouldn't a simple statement like "digital delivery, refund not possible" do the trick here? Put what you need on the download page with instructions how to download the content and that's it.
        It is assumed that having paid for the product, one has downloaded the content. If and how they use it, it's their problem.

        Purchase = consent to no refund.
        The problem is that the vendors don't control the refund policy, Clickbank does. With every purchase a customer is sent an e-mail receipt with a customer service link. All they have to do is click a couple buttons and they will be instantly refunded without ever contacting the vendor.

        I understand why they're doing this, but I do think the refund policy needs to be adjusted at least a little bit. For example, if you're giving customers 60 days to get a refund, why not also make it that they can't get a refund within the first seven days, or something like that.

        I have an excellent pre-sell process in a desperate-buyer-niche, but I'm selling a $150 product. I've tried endless adjustments, but no matter what I do I cannot get rid of the few customers (around 10% in my experience) who will buy and then immediately refund within HOURS, just because they know they can. I never get refunds unless they are immediate. These aren't serial refunders, they're just folks who know that they can choose not to pay for a $150 product.

        It looks like I'm either going to have to switch products for this niche or give up on it altogether, since it's the only one bringing up my refund rate beyond "acceptable" levels and if unchanged could cost me my account. A little frustrating, even if I can somewhat understand where they're coming from. Still, I can't help but think that if they would have filtered the hundreds of crap IM products a little more thoroughly that this whole thing could have been avoided.
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        • Profile picture of the author bwh1
          Originally Posted by stephenwaldo View Post

          The problem is that the vendors don't control the refund policy, Clickbank does. With every purchase a customer is sent an e-mail receipt with a customer service link. All they have to do is click a couple buttons and they will be instantly refunded without ever contacting the vendor.

          I understand why they're doing this, but I do think the refund policy needs to be adjusted at least a little bit. For example, if you're giving customers 60 days to get a refund, why not also make it that they can't get a refund within the first seven days, or something like that.

          I have an excellent pre-sell process in a desperate-buyer-niche, but I'm selling a $150 product. I've tried endless adjustments, but no matter what I do I cannot get rid of the few customers (around 10% in my experience) who will buy and then immediately refund within HOURS, just because they know they can. I never get refunds unless they are immediate. These aren't serial refunders, they're just folks who know that they can choose not to pay for a $150 product.

          It looks like I'm either going to have to switch products for this niche or give up on it altogether, since it's the only one bringing up my refund rate beyond "acceptable" levels and if unchanged could cost me my account. A little frustrating, even if I can somewhat understand where they're coming from. Still, I can't help but think that if they would have filtered the hundreds of crap IM products a little more thoroughly that this whole thing could have been avoided.
          Pack your product into a membership site which they have to signup to get it.

          Offer the product in junks, over a certain time frame.

          If it's a video course, make the vids streaming inside the member area and not for downloading.

          Give to those members additional great material (unadvertised) from inside the member area only.

          Offer Free One-on-One support for active members. Or make weekly Skype calls for them.

          Who refunds will be unsubscribed and looses all the benefits = will lower your rate I guess.

          G.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sayed
            CB continues its dark comedy!!!
            My account was "Orange" and after making 6 or 7 new sales with 0 refunds and chargebacks, it changed into "RED"!!!!!!!!!!
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            • Profile picture of the author greenbay92
              This color-coded system feels seriously screwed up if it goes into action in its current form.

              I have 1 chargeback in over 100 sales which comes to a chargeback rate of less than 1% (acceptable according to CB's own standards).

              However, the preview control shows a "predicted" chargeback rate of 5%

              To add insult to injury, my account is now classified as Unacceptable.

              Wonderful :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author IMShane
                Originally Posted by greenbay92 View Post

                This color-coded system feels seriously screwed up if it goes into action in its current form.

                I have 1 chargeback in over 100 sales which comes to a chargeback rate of less than 1% (acceptable according to CB's own standards).

                However, the preview control shows a "predicted" chargeback rate of 5%

                To add insult to injury, my account is now classified as Unacceptable.

                Wonderful :rolleyes:
                I think their "predicted" stats are actually calculated over a certain period of time, say 2 weeks or so. That's why your 5% came up, and also the stats change everyday. Mine is "below average" several days ago and now it's "good". I guess as soon as your chargeback "moves" out of the calculation range, your account will be classified as "good" again.
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            • Profile picture of the author austria
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Sayed View Post

              CB continues its dark comedy!!!
              My account was "Orange" and after making 6 or 7 new sales with 0 refunds and chargebacks, it changed into "RED"!!!!!!!!!!
              From what I read on the clickbank forums, thousands of affiliates are in your situation, although they did absolutely nothing wrong
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      • Profile picture of the author Wayne
        Originally Posted by Robert H Cwik View Post

        Wouldn't a simple statement like "digital delivery, refund not possible" do the trick here? Put what you need on the download page with instructions how to download the content and that's it.
        It is assumed that having paid for the product, one has downloaded the content. If and how they use it, it's their problem.

        Purchase = consent to no refund.
        Nope, if you are selling through Clickbank you have to abide by Clickbank's Return and Cancellation Policy, and can't state 'no refund' on your sales page.
        ClickBank Client Contract - ClickBank
        Return and Cancellation Policy - ClickBank

        This change doesn't seem to have stopped or even slowed down new products being introduced in the clickbank marketplace, I see new products being added every day.
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  • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

      As an affiliate, how can one determine what color level risk a product is before making a decision to promote that product. Obviously this should be a concern also.

      I doubt that will help.

      I was selling a non-IM product with literally no chargebacks & still flagged as a moderate risk.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

        As an affiliate, how can one determine what color level risk a product is before making a decision to promote that product. Obviously this should be a concern also.
        Individual products don't have a color-level, I think? Unless I've missed something (always possible)? Only vendors and affiliates do, it seems?

        Product risk-levels are clearly not necessarily the same as vendor risk-levels?

        To me, it isn't "obvious" at all that that's a concern, anyway, Joseph.

        Why would I be concerned about other affiliates' refund-rates, after checking out the product myself and determining that I'm happy to send my traffic to its sales page? Refund rates are (rightly) not published by ClickBank.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

        As an affiliate, how can one determine what color level risk a product is before making a decision to promote that product. Obviously this should be a concern also.
        From ClickBank's page

        "In January, ClickBank will be adding new Marketplace star ratings to all listings within the Marketplace, indicating vendor risk levels.

        These stars will range from 1 to 5 with 5 stars indicating highest quality and 1 star indicating lowest quality. For new vendors with little account history, a standard 3 star rating will be applied."


        .
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  • Profile picture of the author Sayed
    My affiliate account is at a high risk
    The reason? I'm in IM niche
    Many dishonest people here purchase a course, study it then refund it even it is good.

    many of them just buy to get the bonus then refund.
    I always write honest reviews but when you are in IM niche you need to expect 30% refund rate (mine is even less)
    So, before they apply these measures, they need to do 2 things:
    1- Start from score 100 for all as this is a new measure.
    2- Change their stupid refund rules. They must find a way to stop free courses seekers. Something like strong reason for a refund not without a question like now!!

    I have 0% refund rate in the health niche and I promote products the same way as IM niche, so it's not my fault.

    I guess this is the death of IM on CB
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Sayed View Post

      My affiliate account is at a high risk
      The reason? I'm in IM niche
      Many dishonest people here purchase a course, study it then refund it even it is good.
      That's the reason I stay out of the IM niche on CB.

      CBs refund policy makes it too easy to scam for refunds. Buyers outside of the IM niche don't try & scam like the IM niche does, there's entire BH forums dedicated to getting IM product refunds.

      I think the best bet for selling in the IM niche is to ship a physical product (CD/DVD) & have the buyer pay return shipping If they want a refund, that would thin out the compulsive refunds that are so easy to get with digital downloads.
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      • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        CBs refund policy makes it too easy to scam for refunds. Buyers outside of the IM niche don't try & scam like the IM niche does, there's entire BH forums dedicated to getting IM product refunds.
        Thats because many products in the IM niche are crap.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

          Thats because many products in the IM niche are crap.

          Still, CB allows the crap to be sold as long as anyone has $50.

          CB creates the crap IM product problem by not moderating the products.
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          • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
            Originally Posted by yukon View Post

            Still, CB allows the crap to be sold as long as anyone has $50.

            CB creates the crap IM product problem by not moderating the products.
            They prefer to work with big volumes, so they don't mind the crappy products, even if they have 20% refund rate or higher, as refunds are not that big of a deal. If they don't give a refund and the customer does a chargeback through his bank, thats when the problems start. Clickbank could lose their merchant account because of high CB rate, and it doesn't even have to be that high...some merchants are closed for CBs as high as 2-3%. I would rather have them give refunds easy than losing the merchant and processing.
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            • Profile picture of the author yukon
              Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

              They prefer to work with big volumes, so they don't mind the crappy products, even if they have 20% refund rate or higher, as refunds are not that big of a deal. If they don't give a refund and the customer does a chargeback through his bank, thats when the problems start. Clickbank could lose their merchant account because of high CB rate, and it doesn't even have to be that high...some merchants are closed for CBs as high as 2-3%. I would rather have them give refunds easy than losing the merchant and processing.

              All the more reason to separate myself from a low quality business like CB.

              I have my own proof to know this new rating system is bogus.

              It's all good, I've switched all my sales pages to private to keep my traffic from getting to CB checkout pages. When my next check clears, I'll officially be done with CB.
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      • Profile picture of the author taskemann
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        That's the reason I stay out of the IM niche on CB.

        CBs refund policy makes it too easy to scam for refunds. Buyers outside of the IM niche don't try & scam like the IM niche does, there's entire BH forums dedicated to getting IM product refunds.

        I think the best bet for selling in the IM niche is to ship a physical product (CD/DVD) & have the buyer pay return shipping If they want a refund, that would thin out the compulsive refunds that are so easy to get with digital downloads.
        Correct! I've been thinking on this. Frank Kern did the same with Mass Control and Jamie Lewis did it with Wealth in a Box.

        Maybe they did it just because to save money from scammy refunders?
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

          Correct! I've been thinking on this. Frank Kern did the same with Mass Control and Jamie Lewis did it with Wealth in a Box.

          Maybe they did it just because to save money from scammy refunders?

          Thanks, I don't keep up with those guys but it's good to know that info. Sounds like they were trying to bypass the serial refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    A lot of IM products over-hype their products way more than other products, and I have never promoted any products in the IM niche. And many people in IM know about clickbank and use their own id anyway. The IM (ebusiness) category in the clickbank marketplace may be getting much smaller. There are still a lot of other products for affiliates to promote though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan Biffle
      Your a 100% right. IM products are over-hyped and the people seeking these products will often purchase from an affiliate just for the bonuses they offer and then get a refund.

      This new system is going to push all IM products over to Clicksure because so many IM products will get a poor rating from Clickbank...it's just the nature of IM products.
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  • Profile picture of the author jrafique
    wow...My affiliate account has a refund rate of only 7% from July to date and no chargeback but my account is marked as "Highest Risk".
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by jrafique View Post

      wow...My affiliate account has a refund rate of only 7% from July to date and no chargeback but my account is marked as "Highest Risk".

      Doesn't matter If you had 0% chargebacks/refunds, you'll still be a moderate risk at best (like me) lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author 1lov1
        Lots of talk about chargeback but those only seem to happen if vendor thank you page doesn't communicate properly that they will see a charge from clickbank or provide customer support for processing refunds.

        The Vendor refund fee though is pretty ridiculous.
        (Product Retail Price X 7.5%) + $1.00

        I'm BLUE but who knows how long that lasts. I stay away from IM niche though.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by 1lov1 View Post

          I'm BLUE but who knows how long that lasts. I stay away from IM niche though.

          Apparently the color code/risk level can change daily.

          * Risk management tiers are assessed on a daily basis.
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    • Profile picture of the author heavysm
      I'm pretty sure everyone with new accounts or those with regular/decent starting just start out as the moderate risk. It says that if they see that you're doing well by January 2013 you will be lowered/raised based upon performance. So no one that is in good standing is higher than "moderate risk" at the moment. You just have to earn it. It just seems that their labeling is unfortunate making us feel as if our credible efforts are shady, which for some of us is a slap in the face.

      For me this calls for intensive split testing. Not making a call until some monetary evidence that this system sucks tells me to stop promoting CB. I've been doing well so far, if that continues why would I stop?
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Only?

      7% is way too high. OK CB will be higher than anywhere else simply because of how easy it is to request a refund but 7% is still too high IMO.

      In WSO forum, anything over 2% refund rate is crap IMO.
      Zappos' refund rate for shoes is 35%

      Lightspeed Venture Partners » Average Zappos return rate: 35%. Best customer return rate: 50%

      .
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

      Only?

      7% is way too high. OK CB will be higher than anywhere else simply because of how easy it is to request a refund but 7% is still too high IMO.

      In WSO forum, anything over 2% refund rate is crap IMO.
      You've possibly just branded every WSO as crap.

      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post


      Still, never mind guys, at least you can agree on the fact that it's all ClickBank's fault, anyway. Never mind that PayPal, 2Checkout, Plimus and other processors are all encountering similar problems and situations caused by pressure from their upline financial service providers, and never mind that ClickBank's proposed solution looks rather more flexible, enterprising and realistic than most people's?
      Yep. Some people just aren't getting it I guess.

      The situation doesn't make me too pleased but it was in the post evident by the fact that every other stamped their feet and kicked people out.

      CC companies are clearly getting harsh with CB too and this is the reason for the cull. At least there's some degree of warning!
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  • Profile picture of the author adamreilly1997
    Same here...
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    • Profile picture of the author John Pin
      They're starting to act like the government.
      Overtaxing and screwing everyone and then wondering why people move their business overseas...
      I loved clickbank, but I guess it's time to pack up and move to other affiliate networks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dominican
    My JV partners' Clickbank product/vendor account has a refund rate set at 6.5%. What I am not getting is how this falls into a tier RED? Also, what I am not getting is how the rating system to be put into effect in January, would relate either?

    Considering how many products this specific product has actually sold... and other areas of consideration, the math does not add up here, that the product would get a 2 star rating, somehow???

    The rules on why and WHAT is being applied here in January, from Clickbank are still rather ambiguous, and fail to represent a product adequately.

    On top of this, it appears that no matter what status your account is in, you will be seeing a TIER when you log in, no matter whether you are an affiliate or a vendor; and thus the anxiety for anybody involved will be high.

    This means that even if your account is in perfect standing, you will still be seeing a violet tier, which also is classified among the accounts that have SOME problems.

    I do not see this system as being fair, or even properly representative of any factors that would be fair.

    Not to mention the fact that the points system is there DAILY. Considering how judgemental clickbank wants to be of it's own customers (us vendors and affiliates), perhaps we, the business customers of Clickbank should return the favor, and remind clickbank that they still do not adequately allow us to prevent the refunds, or address customers therein either.

    The limitations of their refund system, mean that so many bozos are refunding, even without provocation or reason.... sometimes just to get a free product. Sure, a vendor can talk to a customer, but we only get a 24 hour window, and Clickbank auto-refunds this stuff anyway... and secondly, this does not address the products or customers whose native language is NOT English.

    This does not address the customers, who will NOT check that system, and who will NOT be checking it in the next 24 hours before the refund... nor does it address customers who buy and receive the product... and then refund just to avoid payment... etc etc etc.... so many flaws in this, it's unbelievable that Clickbank is penalizing us, the Vendors and Affiliates for mistakes they are ALSO making, and are failing to fix even still.

    Oh, and another product of ours has a 5.5% refund rate, and is still in the highest tier zone.... which is rather confusing. Even a lower refund rate, is still getting a tier red. Imagine that?

    There are so many issues with this system, it's not even funny.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Dominican View Post

      The limitations of their refund system, mean that so many bozos are refunding, even without provocation or reason.... sometimes just to get a free product. Sure, a vendor can talk to a customer, but we only get a 24 hour window, and Clickbank auto-refunds this stuff anyway... and secondly, this does not address the products or customers whose native language is NOT English.
      You don't have to use ClickBank.

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill_Z
    I just checked our CB accounts. Only the ones with IM products are medium or moderate risk. The others in non-IM niches are all low-risk. As others have stated, it's just too well-known within the IM community that CB = free product. I was planning on taking all of our non-IM products off of CB anyway, so this doesn't really bother me much.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dominican
      Just thought I'd reiterate on how Clickbank's refund structure is horrific: My JV guy has a product which has a refund rate of 6% give or take. One customer bought it and emailed within 6 minutes saying, they have changed their mind and would like their money back.

      Another, one said that they've got a credit card debt (because they knew this before purchasing too, but hey... magically they just remembered this???) and need the money they spent on my product back, and if we didn't refund it they'd charge back and mark/taint my JV guy as a fraud with their credit card company!

      The excuses for refunds are more than absurd, many turn into very unrealistic and unreasonable reasons.... none of which CB really lets any vendor PROPERLY address, and none of which a Vendor can properly fight/defend either.

      How ridiculous is this now? Imagine if McDonald's had a refund policy like this in place? It's like going into McDonald's and ordering a burger, taking a bite and then saying "Hey - I've changed my mind about this burger, I want my money back". Now ON TOP of this, the customer gets the refund, and then proceeds to finish their Big Mac and fries... anyway... even after they complained and wanted a refund.
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
        Originally Posted by Dominican View Post

        the customer gets the refund, and then proceeds to finish their Big Mac and fries... anyway... even after they complained and wanted a refund.
        Yes, I agree.

        If they are going to judge affiliates/vendors on their refunds, they need to be able to differentiate between "legitimate refunds" where the product was completely useless to the customer (and then disable/destroy it), and the cyber-crooks who just want a free product (meal).

        Get an algorithm for that metric, and then you will be able to accurately judge the cause of the refund.

        Charging people (refund fees) without positive proof of the cause of the refund, and just saying it must be because the vendor or affiliate did something wrong - is effing stupid - but profitable for CB.

        Imagine if Walmart let you keep your product and get your money back too?

        You want your money back, you need to return the product.

        Try returning a DVD because the movie wasn't as good as the trailers you saw on TV...lol

        I am sorry but CB knew the risk when they decided to become the "middleman" in online digital marketing...now they are bitching about it, and wanting to charge fees for unsubstantiated claims of bad business practices on the vendor/affiliates part.

        I am not buying it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
      Originally Posted by Bill_Z View Post

      I just checked our CB accounts. Only the ones with IM products are medium or moderate risk. The others in non-IM niches are all low-risk. As others have stated, it's just too well-known within the IM community that CB = free product. I was planning on taking all of our non-IM products off of CB anyway, so this doesn't really bother me much.
      Why can't IM product vendors just create a bonus that unlocks after 60 days? I mean, am I the only dude that has thought of this...

      Is it against the rules...?

      Umm.. how many ways can you get around that if it is against the rules??
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      • Profile picture of the author easyrider7
        Originally Posted by Clickmerchant View Post

        Why can't IM product vendors just create a bonus that unlocks after 60 days? I mean, am I the only dude that has thought of this...

        Is it against the rules...?

        Umm.. how many ways can you get around that if it is against the rules??
        It doesn't create a good customer experience though for the vast majority of honest customers - having to wait two whole months to get part of what they have paid for. This might result in more refunds.
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        • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
          Originally Posted by easyrider7 View Post

          It doesn't create a good customer experience though for the vast majority of honest customers - having to wait two whole months to get part of what they have paid for. This might result in more refunds.
          You would obviously not include that 60-day bonus in your sales pitch... It would be an extra that unlocks after 60 days. It would have nothing to do with the initial sale. It would just be a simple thank you bonus for being a member for more than 60 days
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          • Profile picture of the author admin
            Administrator
            Not sure what they are basing these ratings on. I've had a few refunds recently..

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            • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
              I'm an owner of affiliate business (Incentive Media), and I understand that it's a very shady marketplace in general for both vendors and affiliate marketers and my account've also been labelled as Unacceptable.

              Account
              Refund Rate
              (Predicted)
              14.64%
              Account
              Chargeback Rate
              (Predicted)
              4.11%

              Now I've made a lot of money thru Clickbank via my publishing network.. I'm lucky enough to diversify my income flow early on that CB is accounted for a very small part of my overall flow of income each month. I say screw them if they decide to terminate my account if it drops to 0..

              I'm currently already in contact with the vendors themselves to find another payment system or set a fixed payment plan for the traffic I send them, I suggest others do the same as well.

              P.S. IMHO, my idea of being an affiliate is to make as much money as possible while helping products/content owners make even more more money from their products. It's not my job nor my responsibility to screen customers or get feedback from them whether they like the product or not. Once they buy a product, they bought it. If the customers have a problem, they should deal with the owner, not the marketing company. period.
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        • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
          Well, I don't know what to make of today... I mean... I end up having one of my best days in CB since the EMD update, but then we have this "risk" management nonsense...

          It's like sticking out both hands to accept a bar of gold while being kicked in the mansicle.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Ogbin
    clickbank becomes more complicated to understand ^_^

    but it's more secure for the buyers
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  • Profile picture of the author jaggyjay
    Flagged as "Highest Risk" on one of my accounts and I don't even sell any products under the specific account. :confused:

    Thinking maybe that they're factoring in the affiliate products I promote.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wayne
      Originally Posted by jaggyjay View Post

      Flagged as "Highest Risk" on one of my accounts and I don't even sell any products under the specific account. :confused:

      Thinking maybe that they're factoring in the affiliate products I promote.
      The color code is per account. It would include both vendor and affiliate sales on that account.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kingroomx
    Everyday IM is getting scarier as ever. What is CB upto?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve King
      Anyone have any suggestions about where to move to for non IM products.

      I've been selling on CB since 2009 in the golf niche, we have had a few refunds in that time (some within minutes of purchase)...we just accepted there would be refunds no matter how good our products...it's always annoying though without any real chance for engagement with the customer.

      I have already started moving our products across to JV Zoo...

      any one have any other suggested sites...
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        I'd be interested in hearing some alternatives too, just in case I'm not aware of something new and awesome.

        I think all high risk will be getting the chop come January so whether you are in that category or not, it's better to be safe than sorry and have a backup plan in place if you have a considerable income stream being generated through CB.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

          I'd be interested in hearing some alternatives too, just in case I'm not aware of something new and awesome.

          I think all high risk will be getting the chop come January so whether you are in that category or not, it's better to be safe than sorry and have a backup plan in place if you have a considerable income stream being generated through CB.

          True, with the risk grade changing daily, anyone could be at the CB highest risk factor (literally tomorrow).

          Zero refunds/chargebacks is meaningless on CBs rating system.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Barboza
    My account has just been flagged as High Risk lol!
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
      Originally Posted by Alex Barboza View Post

      Mi account has just been flagged as High Risk lol!
      Join the club.

      I primarily promote an eBook, and the customer gets to keep the book whether they refund or not.

      But, of course the main cause of refunds are because it is a bad product - or I am not promoting it correctly...lol

      Let me ask a question.

      How can an affiliate profit from sending mislead visitors to a merchants sales page?

      You send un-targeted traffic, they bounce off the sales page, right?

      Who would buy something after reading the sales page, and seeing it will not fix their problem, or it wasn't what the website they were just on said it was about?

      So, they obviously thought the product was worth buying, or they wouldn't have bought it, right?

      The affiliate did their job...why the refund fee?

      Now as far as the merchants product being crap...how has it lasted for almost 5 years on CB - or gained a very high gravity?

      Now all of a sudden it is a "high risk"?

      I think the root of the problem is the concept of getting something for nothing...it is much too tempting for most people to resist.

      CB should be working with vendors to help stop the cyber crooks from stealing from us (CB, the vendor, and the affiliate) - not just passing the cost on to the affiliate/vendor.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        It appears the new risk assessment is a statistically-based algorithm for predicting future losses due to refunds based on metrics of previous transactions. For example, I currently promote over 300 Clickbank products with almost zero refunds, yet my affiliate risk tier is yellow. I have never been a vendor. This is most likely due to one or more at-risk niches and certainly nothing at all regarding my own marketing practices.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    Ridiculous. My affiliate account has a refund rate of 2%, and a lot of happy customers who thank me for my recommendations. Still, I'm now an apparent "moderate risk".

    I've been gearing up to put my product on CB as a vendor and have spent almost $8k and the last 2 months getting everything in place (product editing, copywriting, sales video, etc). Now, I'm going to look for alternatives as it is clear that even though my (non-IM) product is high quality and will serve a real need, Clickbank intends to punish me for the tiny percent of people who will refund or chargeback.

    Here's an idea for any Clickbank representatives in the house: Bite the bullet on this one. Your "risk scale" metrics are entirely off, and it's insulting to be labeled anywhere other than the lowest level of risk when you run a business as I do. It's even more insulting to try to CHARGE me for refunds and/or chargebacks as an affiliate or vendor. It's in CB's best interests to either scale this back or bite the bullet and cancel this update entirely. If they don't, they WILL lose millions in lost affiliate revenue and vendor charges.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    I guess what irks me the most about CB is, I was promoting a really good product. I've personally bought similar products offline (multiple times).

    Maybe I should hook up with the vendor & work out a deal under a new payment processor? My traffic likes the product & never had a refund on CB.

    That's the downside of all this, some decent products/vendors/affiliates are getting caught in the crossfire.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianDouglas
    I never liked click bank. Never once saw a product on there I would buy myself and felt like a scammer just thinking about sharing links for the junk hosted on that marketplace.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by BrianDouglas View Post

      I never liked click bank. Never once saw a product on there I would buy myself and felt like a scammer just thinking about sharing links for the junk hosted on that marketplace.

      There's decent products on CB, you just have to dig to find them. Personally, I would be leery of most IM products, but that goes for all the web not just CB.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Schmidt
    I can't complain about my current vendor 'rating' (Lowest Risk), but their fees are highway robbery.
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  • Profile picture of the author Genycis
    I can see why many are upset and I just joined the list too. Granted, I haven't been doing Clickbank affiliate promoting but maybe for the last few months at most so I was just getting my feet wet and made a few sales here and there for the music niche. And of course, given a refund or two here, since I haven't netted a few sales a week, I'm already placed in the Highest Risk category. I guess for those such as myself who recently got started promoting products, it's about to get real tight and a big struggle trying to get up off the ground before you can get out of the red. Unless you start off making a few affiliate sales or more a week at least and average 1 refund a month at most, you may be placed in the red as well. Guess I can keep trying to promote the products I've done but in the music niche, it seems that there are a fair share of people who have buyer's doubt and don't buy. And I'm not about to turn my blog post into a "You GOTTA Buy This" product instead of a review type basis as I've done.

    I wonder how many vendors that have decent products but that aren't getting enough sales will abandon ship, or how many affiliates that are trying to start into the game will have to end it based on the chargeback fees, the need to bank many a sale to prevent one refund from turning you from yellow to red, and so on. They've lost their mind... I can understand trying to tighten things a bit as there are several sketchy vendors, but I think they're trying to tighten extensively... interesting to see how this plays out after January 2nd.
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  • Profile picture of the author SShip
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    • Profile picture of the author GoodnightSweetRatRace
      I wander if they will eventually crack down on how affiliates promote products. Can Clickbank even track where the hops come from?
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      • Profile picture of the author Genycis
        Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

        I wander if they will eventually crack down on how affiliates promote products. Can Clickbank even track where the hops come from?
        I'm sure they can to some degree but that won't tell the whole story either. I could have my hops generate from twitter and use the same hops link for everything. But then again too, I can see cracking down on those that falsely claim a product works this and that way but doesn't. But even if you have an honest review of it and may give it a B rating and tell people they buy this product at their own risk, it won't matter. Wow, guess I had better force those people that are visiting my page to buy them so my sales numbers go up. Smh
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      • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
        Originally Posted by GoodnightSweetRatRace View Post

        I wander if they will eventually crack down on how affiliates promote products. Can Clickbank even track where the hops come from?
        I would imagine they can :/

        I've been contacting my vendors to see about improving the refund rate, and I'd recommend doing the same. I know that is not easy... trust me!
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by SShip View Post

      As far as I can tell, and this is my opinion, is their refund policy is what's causing this issue and the rest of us get to pay the price.
      The refund policy doesn't even come into play with chargebacks and it's chargebacks which are likely to be the burning issue.

      If a buyer knew of the simple refund policy they would have no need to make a brute force refund demand by contacting their credit card company.
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    • Profile picture of the author vaital
      Hey guys, I don't know if anyone at Clickbank will read this, but here is what I just sent them verbatim:

      "Every great empire has its end...

      You think we don't know that this new risk management system is because Clickbank still allows access to products after someone gets a refund? The temptation to get something for nothing is too high and I can't believe you have run a business like this!

      How many stores do you know that allow you to keep their product after getting a refund? - OF COURSE IT WILL FAIL!!
      And now you blame affiliates and want to punish them with lame fees...

      We will be leaving by the thousands-read the forums for yourself.

      --This Will Be Your Fall Clickbank, Say Goodbye --"
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by vaital View Post

        Hey guys, I don't know if anyone at Clickbank will read this, but here is what I just sent them verbatim:

        "Every great empire has its end...

        You think we don't know that this new risk management system is because Clickbank still allows access to products after someone gets a refund? The temptation to get something for nothing is too high and I can't believe you have run a business like this!

        How many stores do you know that allow you to keep their product after getting a refund? - OF COURSE IT WILL FAIL!!
        And now you blame affiliates and want to punish them with lame fees...

        We will be leaving by the thousands-read the forums for yourself.

        --This Will Be Your Fall Clickbank, Say Goodbye --"

        Well, they certainly need to take a look at this problem from a different perspective. ClickBank needs to start looking at the customers who are serial refunders. They certainly made mention of serial refunders years ago but I've never heard of anyone who was banned from being a serial refunder.
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  • Profile picture of the author stevenschofield
    Thanks for the info
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  • Profile picture of the author Genycis
    I agree, and I feel that although we are affiliates for some of the products on there, it should be more of an impact to the vendors themselves, and I can see these new codes and what not given to them more so than those of us promoting it. If a product is getting more and more chargebacks and refunds, especially after we've promoted it before those were noted, then the vendor should be more at responsibility to get them. Don't get me wrong, there are some affiliates out there that promote in such ways that it almost completely defies everything about the product, but I still think that the vendor is the one that would be more at fault and at risk of high risk statuses since it is their product. But it's almost as though we all face the same fate, and so if we promote a product for the first time that may not even have any stats in place, it starts off okay and then gets some chargebacks immediately, all of a sudden you're at risk?

    They need to figure out a better way to code everything properly, or I can see Clickbank eventually falling apart. There are quite a few products out there that fall into the N/A category that don't even have stats yet. I guess all of those vendors will be removed since they don't have many sales to even count as being good in Clickbank's eyes? I don't get it, and I agree with you SShip, they've allowed them on there for this long and now affiliates have to pay the price for what they allowed. Yeah, it'll be real interesting to see how they go. Guess it's good I didn't put any of my products on there to try to get affiliates to promote it. They've really lost their damn mind. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author wuser12
    CB in their best!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    What does it mean if you have a mushroom cloud on your account?

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      What does it mean if you have a mushroom cloud on your account?

      RoD



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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    Also, let's point out just how well this system is set up for sabotage by competitors...

    If a vendor knows they can perform chargebacks and refunds to move a competing vendor to another "risk tier" AND cost them money, you can bet it will happen.

    So I guess the question for vendors is: Where to now?

    Infusionsoft? JVZoo? The problem is that there just aren't any platforms that can compete with CB in terms of number of affiliates or exposure. Then again, I promote an info product that makes me low four-figures a month (60% payout) as an affiliate through the company's private affiliate program and I'm not even in the top 10% of their affiliates, so I know there is value in other affiliate programs.

    What say you, vendors?
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    • Profile picture of the author jrafique
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      Also, let's point out just how well this system is set up for sabotage by competitors...

      If a vendor knows they can perform chargebacks and refunds to move a competing vendor to another "risk tier" AND cost them money, you can bet it will happen.

      So I guess the question for vendors is: Where to now?

      Infusionsoft? JVZoo? The problem is that there just aren't any platforms that can compete with CB in terms of number of affiliates or exposure. Then again, I promote an info product that makes me low four-figures a month (60% payout) as an affiliate through the company's private affiliate program and I'm not even in the top 10% of their affiliates, so I know there is value in other affiliate programs.

      What say you, vendors?
      Its same like the negative SEO people do to get rid of their competitors
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  • Profile picture of the author Ctscott860
    Yea this is ridiculous I do IM part time. I have made $2,300+ this year on click bank. With only $500 (mostly IM niche products) being refunded. Its not like I have (-) negative account with more refunds than sales.

    ANd they consider me a HIGH risk

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    • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
      Originally Posted by Ctscott860 View Post

      Yea this is ridiculous I do IM part time. I have made $2,300+ this year on click bank. With only $500 (mostly IM niche products) being refunded. Its not like I have (-) negative account with more refunds than sales.

      ANd they consider me a HIGH risk

      OMG!!! $500 out of $2300 refunded and you call that ONLY??? I refund $20-50 out of each $1000-2000 and think that is already the limit.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

        OMG!!! $500 out of $2300 refunded and you call that ONLY???
        Yeah, that made me laugh. It always depends on your perspective.

        The worst garbage is a "quality product." $500 out of $2500 refunded is "good". The unbelievable part of this - ClickBank has been allowing that to happen.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Yeah, that made me laugh. It always depends on your perspective.

          $500 out of $2500 refunded is "good".
          It depends on what type of product that is...

          If it is a digital product that a customer gets to keep and continue to use after the refund, that probably is good - considering that at least 50% of the people who buy products like that do it knowing they can "easily" GET IT FOR FREE by requesting a refund, and eventually do just that...steal it.

          That is NOT a refund, and shouldn't be counted as one.

          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          The unbelievable part of this - ClickBank has been allowing that to happen.
          Yeah, that's what I say.

          Who didn't see the possibility of people stealing digital products with a no questions asked refund policy and the ability to continue to use the product after the refund?

          Now, they (CB) think the affiliate can determine the honest people from the effing crooks when we are marketing - please tell me how to pull that off, that would really help my bottom line with CB products of that type.

          I run a free forum for people in my niche that provides customer support for people whether they buy through my link or not.

          You help someone find a solution to their problem, and they pay you back by stealing from you, and inherently f*cking up your business, as well.

          But I don't do it for them, I do it for the other 50% that are honest and gain help from what I do.

          What is CB doing about the cyber-crooks, besides stealing more money from me, and then (eventually) shutting down my account?
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
            Originally Posted by Scott Strickland View Post

            It depends on what type of product that is...

            If it is a digital product that a customer gets to keep and continue to use after the refund, that probably is good - considering that at least 50% of the people who buy products like that do it knowing they can "easily" GET IT FOR FREE by requesting a refund, and eventually do just that...steal it.

            That is NOT a refund, and shouldn't be counted as one.

            Yeah, that's what I say.

            Who didn't see the possibility of people stealing digital products with a no questions asked refund policy and the ability to continue to use the product after the refund?

            Now, they (CB) think the affiliate can determine the honest people from the effing crooks when we are marketing - please tell me how to pull that off, that would really help my bottom line with CB products of that type.

            I run a free forum for people in my niche that provides customer support for people whether they buy through my link or not.

            You help someone find a solution to their problem, and they pay you back by stealing from you, and inherently f*cking up your business, as well.

            But I don't do it for them, I do it for the other 50% that are honest and gain help from what I do.

            What is CB doing about the cyber-crooks, besides stealing more money from me, and then (eventually) shutting down my account?



            Yeah I agree with everything you say...

            And may I add if hindsight is 20/20 then ClickBank should see that if they continue to put the pressure solely on the vendors and affiliates without even addressing dishonest buyers who request refund after refund just because they can they ClickBank will cease to exist in the future...
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      • Profile picture of the author Clickmerchant
        Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

        OMG!!! $500 out of $2300 refunded and you call that ONLY??? I refund $20-50 out of each $1000-2000 and think that is already the limit.
        I'm doing even worse... See it all has to do with the niche of the products.. IM products are known for their high refund rates because customers just try them out, take the knowledge, and run! They just get their money back because that's the type of game people are playing as a newbie it seems :/ Sure there are a lot of scams out there, but too many people that buy IM products expect to get rich just by buying the product. I mean, what does CB expect with a 60-day, no-questions-asked refund policy?
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    • Profile picture of the author Ctscott860
      Originally Posted by Ctscott860 View Post

      Yea this is ridiculous I do IM part time. I have made $2,300+ this year on click bank. With only $500 (mostly IM niche products) being refunded. Its not like I have (-) negative account with more refunds than sales.

      ANd they consider me a HIGH risk

      LOL in less than 3 hours I am now BORDERLINE? I had 1 sale $12 (rebill). lol did that help?

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      • Profile picture of the author GoodnightSweetRatRace
        Originally Posted by Ctscott860 View Post

        LOL in less than 3 hours I am now BORDERLINE? I had 1 sale $12 (rebill). lol did that help?

        It's the exact same thing, just different name. Clickbank decided to change the name of each colour tier for whatever reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author DaCato
    Get your own merchant accounts and hook up to a CRM like Infusionsoft.

    Anyone who relies on Clickbank to process their transactions is leaving a TONNE of money on the table...

    Not to mention all of these new "account risk level" headaches.
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    • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
      Originally Posted by DaCato View Post

      Get your own merchant accounts and hook up to a CRM like Infusionsoft.

      Anyone who relies on Clickbank to process their transactions is leaving a TONNE of money on the table...

      Not to mention all of these new "account risk level" headaches.
      DaCato,

      Sorry.... The merchant account won't save you either....... Instead of "refunds"... You'll get "charge backs"....... They have the same result... You're not getting the money in the end...

      As a credit card industry "insider," I know all of the loopholes people try to use........ I also know exactly how to close them...... I better write up that WSO....

      God Bless,

      Rich Beck
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        Originally Posted by RichBeck View Post

        DaCato,

        Sorry.... The merchant account won't save you either....... Instead of "refunds"... You'll get "charge backs"....... They have the same result... You're not getting the money in the end...
        You're missing the point completely. Refunds have ALWAYS been a factor. The main problem here is that CB now wants to CHARGE the vendor and affiliate (while still keeping their cut of the sale, by the way) for refunds and chargebacks. This is on top of their already high fees for vendors.

        It's not about not getting the money from the sale..

        It's about not getting the money from the sale AND being expected to have money taken from you because of it!
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        • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
          Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

          You're missing the point completely. Refunds have ALWAYS been a factor. The main problem here is that CB now wants to CHARGE the vendor and affiliate (while still keeping their cut of the sale, by the way) for refunds and chargebacks. This is on top of their already high fees for vendors.

          It's not about not getting the money from the sale..

          It's about not getting the money from the sale AND being expected to have money taken from you because of it!
          CB has to pay for CBs and refunds, too. And high fees for vendors? You have no idea...CB's fees are seriously a joke compared to some others, for the services they offer. I used to pay 20% fees for high risk for a long time, I consider CB almost for free. If you are not happy with the fees, get a merchant account or start your own processing company and offer your clients lower fees. Its not as simple as the sounds. Its not CB's fault, its always only VISA's fault, they make the rules, they do whatever they want and however they want.
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        • Profile picture of the author RichBeck
          Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

          You're missing the point completely. Refunds have ALWAYS been a factor. The main problem here is that CB now wants to CHARGE the vendor and affiliate (while still keeping their cut of the sale, by the way) for refunds and chargebacks. This is on top of their already high fees for vendors.

          It's not about not getting the money from the sale..

          It's about not getting the money from the sale AND being expected to have money taken from you because of it!
          Cool Hand Luke,

          I think you misread my post, my friend..... I was commenting specifically on the "risk" of the merchant account vs. ClickBank....

          Originally Posted by DaCato View Post

          Get your own merchant accounts and hook up to a CRM like Infusionsoft.

          Anyone who relies on Clickbank to process their transactions is leaving a TONNE of money on the table...

          Not to mention all of these new "account risk level" headaches.
          I was not commenting on ClickBank or their "new" fees....... I was commenting on the myth some people believe a merchant account will somehow "shield" them from "refunds" or "charge backs"... That is 100% false...

          God Bless,

          Rich Beck
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            Originally Posted by RichBeck View Post

            Cool Hand Luke,

            I think you misread my post, my friend....
            No, I didn't.
            I was commenting specifically on the "risk" of the merchant account vs. ClickBank.... I was not commenting on ClickBank or their "new" fees....... I was commenting on the myth some people believe a merchant account will somehow "shield" them from "refunds" or "charge backs"... That is 100% false...

            God Bless,

            Rich Beck
            The poster you quoted didn't mention anything saying a "merchant account will somehow shield them from refunds or chargebacks". He was specifically talking about using a CRM like Infusionsoft to avoid Clickbank's vendor fees. He did not even mention refunds or chargebacks.
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            • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
              Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

              No, I didn't.
              The poster you quoted didn't mention anything saying a "merchant account will somehow shield them from refunds or chargebacks". He was specifically talking about using a CRM like Infusionsoft to avoid Clickbank's vendor fees. He did not even mention refunds or chargebacks.
              You will still have to pay "vendor" fees, no bank is going to process sales for free. And the merchant fees aren't even that low these days...the savings are pretty much zero, because having your own merchant is a lot of work(nobody is going to do phone customer support for you), headaches and you can lose it overnight, too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Seems there is no Rhyme or Reason for these codes because one of my four accounts has had no activity for about 2 years now and look what it gets. They even Predict what they think it will get?

    There is something fundamentally wrong with their system. It's flawed from the get-go! How can they "Predict" a refund rate when there is NOTHING being sold on that account? I used this account for affiliate marketing only at one point. I've never been a vendor with this account....

    How the Hell can you improve "predicted" results... meaning it's their best guess. If they don't be careful they are going to kill their own business and everyone will move over the ClickSure.
    .

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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Seems there is no Rhyme or Reason for these codes because one of my four accounts has had no activity for about 2 years now and look what it gets. They even Predict what they think it will get?

      There is something fundamentally wrong with their system. It's flawed from the get-go! How can they "Predict" a refund rate when there is NOTHING being sold on that account? I used this account for affiliate marketing only at one point. I've never been a vendor with this account....
      Yup, my account shows a similar "prediction".

      I think it's safe to say that if they really do go through with this on January 2nd, the IM niche is done on CB, and many other vendors will leave as well. The metrics are way off, the charges are insane and ripe for abuse, and all of the "big boys" will surely move to another payment processor.

      I can only imagine that CB will get so much negative feedback about this from vendors and affiliates that they will either adjust their idiotic "risk tiers" or they will scrap this altogether.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesColin
    Banned
    We'll have to wait and see, but of course at first when logging in my clickbank account I was surprised and said to myself "what now, again?"
    But after reading their system. I see a new metric will come to help me choose products to promote as an affiliate.
    Because gravity is really not relevant, and there is no precision.

    I think in the future, in january, it will be actually quite good to check the products and have a color coded way to spot the good ones with no refunds.
    Ideally they should also give out the number of sales, the total one over the last 2 months, not only the gravity which doesn't mean much especially in internet-related products where nearly everyone who buy it use their own clickbank id.

    I'm quite happy with this change but I'd like more information to be given if they really want to improve their game.

    But we'll see exactly in january how useful this can be.

    Of course I'm not happy about the planned additional fees I'll have as an affiliate, but after all they could have doubled them and since I'm not the owner of clickbank my choice is clear, stay and accept the rules or go elsewhere and accept the elsewhere rules.. :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by JamesColin View Post

      We'll have to wait and see, but of course at first when logging in my clickbank account I was surprised and said to myself "what now, again?"
      But after reading their system. I see a new metric will come to help me choose products to promote as an affiliate.

      I know right now that will not work.

      The CB product I promote has never had a single chargeback/refund on my end, I've made plenty of sales, so I'm more than sure it's viewed as a good CB product. I know for a fact my traffic is happy with the CB product otherwise I would see refunds (which isn't happening).
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      • Profile picture of the author seregap
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        I know right now that will not work.

        The CB product I promote has never had a single chargeback/refund on my end, I've made plenty of sales, so I'm more than sure it's viewed as a good CB product. I know for a fact my traffic is happy with the CB product otherwise I would see refunds (which isn't happening).
        same here. 0 refunds/chargebacks for the entire life of this account (6 months) - moderate risk lol
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    It's funny CB is waiting until Jan. 2nd 2013 to make such a drastic move.

    Looks to me like they plan on seeing a major profit drop & putting it off until 2013 tax year.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Yeah, I think there algorithm is WAY off.

    Been digging through a few accounts, I have a "high risk" affiliate account with a 32% predicted refund rate BUT get this.

    I haven't used the account since January, and the last commission generated was in February.

    So, I'm past the sixty day refund period, yet I still have a high risk account with a 32% predicted refund rate (even though its way past the refund period)..
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    My real guess is that CB is getting massive pressure from its merchant account. Just like 2checkout did not too long ago. Their underwriters basically told them to bail on IM products.
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    • Profile picture of the author WilsonA
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      My real guess is that CB is getting massive pressure from its merchant account. Just like 2checkout did not too long ago. Their underwriters basically told them to bail on IM products.
      CB is under a lot of pressure from a lot of big players, they have been hinting at it in the last year or so I dont really think they are happily making some of their recent changes.

      Anyway my account is low risk
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  • Profile picture of the author Sayed
    I guess Clicksure owners are celebrating now
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    • Profile picture of the author DeadGuy
      This is all good stuff. What I can't get passed is the "... if your account remains in this tier after January 2, 2013" statement. I'm in the moderate green category with zero chargebacks or refunds. Now, if CB isn't going to post their new "star rating system" for vendors, what are we supposed to check, or fix, or modify before the deadline?
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      You are making this work at home stuff way harder than it is. Ready for some sanity? Clear your head and start over.

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  • Profile picture of the author sandman123
    Big mistake from clickbank IMHO, because there is no way any affiliate is going to want to market any new products, unless it has a proven track record.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tribe
    I have only just started with CB. I have done 6 sales and 1 refund and got a Moderate Risk score like most of you.

    Edit: Actually I just refreshed my account 20 minutes later and suddenly I'm ranked as 'Good'. I haven't made a sale with CB in the last 30 days...
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    Personally, I think the majority of the issues regarding the CB refund policy are concentrated in just a few markets with the IM market leading the way.

    Granted these are some of the bigger markets for CB at the moment, but maybe they are simply trying to move away from that for various reasons.

    Particularly in the IM market, consumers have been behaviorally trained to buy and refund IM products. This is partly due to CB, but largely due to the sheer amount of crap peddled by IMers.

    People would buy an IM product via CB only to find out they were deceived by the magical sales letter. Then they figure out how easy the CB refund policy is and before you know it word gets around that being a serial refunder is basically allowed at CB.

    Fast forward a few years and keep letting the product quality go down hill at CB while allowing more over the top sales letters and something like this becomes very predictable.

    I have been around way to long to buy into all "the death of" type of predictions, but I will say that I think that CB is probably making a decent effort to move away from the IM market.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
    I don't know why folks are defending ClickBank on this thread - the analysis there doing seems off.

    Hilariously - I just went to green in a few hours of checking (initially moderate risk).

    This seems like a very simplistic formula to a complex problem - yes, I make sales just about every hour but not enough to change my overall refund rates.
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    • Profile picture of the author easyrider7
      I wonder what this means for continuity offers, when all are going to be cancelled/refunded at some stage.

      This is even more the case for continuity offers that are compulsory add-ons to the main product eg. if you buy X you get a month's free trial of Y and if you don't cancel you will be billed every month after that.
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  • Profile picture of the author mn07666
    We're the real middlemen/women here not CB. I think if CB were smart they would have focused on the vendors and the quality of their products they put on the market. Who wouldn't ask for a refund if the product was poor, or worse, outdated. There are products on CB that clearly don't work as well today as they did 3 years ago, yet they remain. Many are tied to changes made by Google.

    This is good reason to focus your business elsewhere. Like all markets, you have to be diverse,or else you could really take a hit if you're too concentrated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Elsa
    Just logged in that my status is now changed into "Unacceptable".

    Apparently they just changed the levels:

    • Unacceptable accounts will lose 2 points per day.
    • Borderline accounts will lose 1 point per day.
    • Good, Very Good, and Excellent accounts will gain 1 point per day up to a maximum of 100 points.
    A few hours earlier I just checked it was "highest risk"....lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Huh, that's strange... Within the last hour all but 1 account now shows Good instead of Medium Risk and the other shows Below Average. However the "Predicted" results are still the same... Obviously this is still being worked out...
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Huh, that's strange... Within the last hour all but 1 account now shows Good instead of Medium Risk and the other shows Below Average. However the "Predicted" results are still the same... Obviously this is still being worked out...
      Yup. A couple hours ago I was "moderate risk". Now I have this:

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    • Profile picture of the author Tim3
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Huh, that's strange... Within the last hour all but 1 account now shows Good instead of Medium Risk and the other shows Below Average. However the "Predicted" results are still the same... Obviously this is still being worked out...

      They must have been reading this thread and panicked
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  • Profile picture of the author easyrider7
    If you as a product vendor are responsible for what affiliates do, you should have the option of "firing" affiliates who don't perform. Therefore vendors should have a list of affiliates and their statistics refund/chargeback rates too (and have the right to choose which ones they allow to promote their products).

    Meanwhile the green account status has been relabelled from "Moderate Risk" to "Good".
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by easyrider7 View Post

      If you as a product vendor are responsible for what affiliates do, you should have the option of "firing" affiliates who don't perform.
      This could make a good TV Program.

      The Affiliate: You're Fired


      .
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    • Profile picture of the author Dominican
      Originally Posted by easyrider7 View Post

      If you as a product vendor are responsible for what affiliates do, you should have the option of "firing" affiliates who don't perform. Therefore vendors should have a list of affiliates and their statistics refund/chargeback rates too (and have the right to choose which ones they allow to promote their products).
      What a valid point as well... I don't know if many people on this forum even take advantage of that, I know some of the people in my industry certainly haven't.
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
    Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

    So dudes...

    And Mods...does this mean that when I bad mouth CB on the Forum my posts won't get deleted?

    Nobody can say anything in this thread I haven't argued with my CB account manager till I'm blue in the face about already.

    At one point it was about 4 times a week on average,...now it is down to about 3 times per week...she typically knows when I'm about to call..they all know my voice over there now haha!

    They are bunch of trucking tankers. Period.
    You are calling employees, how is that going to change anything? Its just employees, they don't make the rules, they just do their jobs.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Oh dear, upon checking further of my accounts I found this:



    I actually find it funny because I use this account for MEMBERSHIP sites only..so obviously there are soe refunds due to people cancelling their membership.

    Still only two refunds for the past two weeks, and I'm "unacceptable"
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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      Oh dear, upon checking further of my accounts I found this:



      I actually find it funny because I use this account for MEMBERSHIP sites only..so obviously there are soe refunds due to people cancelling their membership.

      Still only two refunds for the past two weeks, and I'm "unacceptable"
      well sorry to hear that.

      I make my living on clickbank in several niches.

      They are trying to clamp down on the scams, and also low quality products, as they do have fees to process for refunds, and they are taking this opportunity to make money from this in the process and pass on responsibility to the vendor.

      I am 50 / 50 whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. On one hand, its gunna keep more chitty products away from clickbank. And one the other, its really going to give clickbank a bad name, or add to its negatives.
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  • Profile picture of the author Genycis
    Sweet, kick me in the nads while I'm already down... said "Highest Risk" earlier, but let's change the name to "Unacceptable" and push it forward from there. Lol! Guess I have to immediately find other products to promote that will get me some more sales by Jan 2nd, or I'm as good as toast. I wonder what they'll do for everyone that gets suspended that still managed to bring some sales to those vendors that aren't sketchy. I can only imagine how all of this is going to go down for both vendors and affiliates once the initial points kick in. Hmmmm...
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  • Profile picture of the author taskemann
    LOL! One of my products that nearly get any refunds at all is in the "Borderline"..

    Well.. I've said it before and I'll say it again - ClickBank is digging their own grave. They were good for two years ago but now, they are only losing their shares to other retailers because of stupid sh*t like this!

    Maybe I should move over to JVzoo or ClickSure? At least they don't advertise "Get a Refund Here!" in the receipts & tease their vendors with crap like this.
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    • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
      Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

      Maybe I should move over to JVzoo or ClickSure? At least they don't advertise "Get a Refund Here!" in the receipts & tease their vendors with crap like this.
      The problem with JVzoo is that they work with paypal. I wouldn't trust paypal with high payments or too many recurring members, as they can cut you off anytime, for any reason. And clicksure, I didn't even know they exist until now and checking their website, it looks like a $5 website from flippa.
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      • Profile picture of the author taskemann
        Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

        The problem with JVzoo is that they work with paypal. I wouldn't trust paypal with high payments or too many recurring members, as they can cut you off anytime, for any reason. And clicksure, I didn't even know they exist until now and checking their website, it looks like a $5 website from flippa.
        Hm.. Why would PayPal do that? Don't they want clients who can pay them fees?

        And besides that, a lot of well known high-earnings businesses use PayPal as a payment processor. :confused:

        I read somewhere that they could close down personal accounts that received massive amounts of money. That's why I upgraded to a "Premier" account.

        So you mean I'm still not safe?
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        • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
          Originally Posted by taskemann View Post

          Hm.. Why would PayPal do that? Don't they want clients who can pay them fees?

          And besides that, a lot of well known high-earnings businesses use PayPal as a payment processor. :confused:

          I read somewhere that they could close down personal accounts that received massive amounts of money. That's why I upgraded to a "Premier" account.

          So you mean I'm still not safe?
          Just read some online reviews...paypal ruined thousands of people for no valid reason. Just recently there was a business owner saying paypal shut down their account and they were processing $100k/monthly with no complaints from customers whatsoever. There are thousands of stories like this. People think it can't happen to them, as it didn't happen yet, but with paypal, it can happen overnight and they don't even give a reason. I use paypal only for a couple thousands per month, but I wouldn't process more with them and even now I have back up processors, just in case.
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          • Profile picture of the author taskemann
            Originally Posted by OnlineAddict View Post

            Just read some online reviews...paypal ruined thousands of people for no valid reason. Just recently there was a business owner saying paypal shut down their account and they were processing $100k/monthly with no complaints from customers whatsoever. There are thousands of stories like this. People think it can't happen to them, as it didn't happen yet, but with paypal, it can happen overnight and they don't even give a reason. I use paypal only for a couple thousands per month, but I wouldn't process more with them and even now I have back up processors, just in case.
            I researched it now and found this:

            "Why Paypal May Limit Or Freeze Your Account

            After talking to my Paypal rep for over 30 minutes, they reassured me that it’s extremely rare that they ever place holds on user accounts. They also told me that there were no limits on my account whatsoever and that I could process as much money as I wanted to in any given day. When I brought up the stories about my blogging friends and how they had their accounts frozen, the representative assured me that the reasons for limiting an account vary greatly from user to user and largely depends on the situation.

            Under the following circumstances, Paypal has certain triggers in place as a safeguard against fraud. Here are some reasons why some of these safeguards might be triggered

            • You’ve received an abnormally large amount of money in your account that is way above your average
            • Someone has filed a complaint to Paypal about your business
            • A series of chargebacks have been placed against your account
            • Your website has questionable content
            • You are in violation of Paypal’s use policy. For example if you sell drugs or anything illegal, you may get banned
            • Your account information is not up to date or your account is not fully verified
            • Someone has logged into your Paypal account from a strange location.
            • Your credit score is low or something with your background history makes you a higher risk customer
            • They have detected fraudulent activity on your account.
            Preventing Paypal From Ever Limiting Your Account

            Towards the end of my conversation with Paypal, they assured me one last time that only a very small fraction of a percent of people get their accounts frozen and that accounts are rarely frozen for the full 180 days. They also recommended the following guidelines to greatly reduce the chances of this happening.
            • If you are expecting to receive a large sum of money, then you should call Paypal ahead of time so they expect to see the extra funds. In other words, if you are planning a large product launch, make sure you let them know ahead of time
            • When you first signup for Paypal Website Payments Pro, there’s a survey that you have to take. Make sure that you check off higher numbers in terms of how much money you anticipate making every month
            • Contact Paypal to make sure that your account is not limited in any way in terms of how much money you can accept per day. Sometimes limits are placed depending on various factors relating to your credit history or background checks
            • Make sure your name or the name of your business is on your Paypal account and that it exactly matches your bank account and credit cards.
            • Use the exact same addresses and phone numbers that match your bank account and credit cards
            • Always use trackable methods of shipping if you ship physical goods in case a dispute is filed against you
            • Make sure that your FEIN or social security number exactly matches the name of your business on the account
            • Link both a credit card and a bank account to Paypal"

            "Here’s the bottom line how I see it. If you are in the business of selling informational or digital goods and your revenues are extremely lumpy, then I would go with a regular merchant account and gateway like Merchant Plus. If you have low credit scores or any history of fraud or criminal activity, then go with a regular merchant account and gateway like Merchant Plus. If you never want to deal with the possibility of getting your account frozen or limited, then go with a regular merchant account and gateway.

            The main reason my wife and I use Paypal is because they offer an extremely convenient way to ship packages and accept Paypal payments with one easy to use interface. Paypal’s fees are higher than a traditional merchant account but the perks are worth it for our store. But if you do decide to go with Paypal, it’s probably a good idea to give them a call to make sure that there aren’t any artificial limits on your account.
            "

            Source: http://mywifequitherjob.com/why-payp...pening-to-you/

            Never heard of Merchant Plus before. They do also accept affiliates.

            Useful stuff. Just wanted to share it :p
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      • Profile picture of the author vaital
        It would be nice if some of us can come together and create our own affiliate network. A network for affiliates by affilaites. The very first thing would be to require every product to implement a simple program that checks whether the client has access rights or not by immediately accessing a database when a product is opened.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by taskemann View Post


      Maybe I should move over to JVzoo or ClickSure? At least they don't advertise "Get a Refund Here!" in the receipts
      Neither does ClickBank.

      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        Indeed. MAny people here forget that there is no obligation to declare CBs refund policy. I have some products where I don't do this.

        Sure, my conversion rate is lower. But so is my refund rate.
        That's not true.

        Clickbank stipulates quite clearly that refund terms must be displayed on the vendors sales page. It's one of the primary requirements.

        If you aren't displaying refund terms you are violating CB terms.
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

          That's not true.

          Clickbank stipulates quite clearly that refund terms must be displayed on the vendors sales page. It's one of the primary requirements.

          If you aren't displaying refund terms you are violating CB terms.
          Daniel,

          That's what I previously thought also but if you look at their pitch page requirements, it no longer is one of them.

          Get Started as a Vendor

          Maybe they removed it...?
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          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
            Originally Posted by WillR View Post

            Daniel,

            That's what I previously thought also but if you look at their pitch page requirements, it no longer is one of them.

            Get Started as a Vendor

            Maybe they removed it...?
            This is exactly where I was looking to try and dig it out.

            Yep, looks like it's gone!

            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Unless something has changed recently, I don't believe this to be the case. Show me the clause in the terms. I've had pages approved without it and any CB vendor knows how careful they are with approving pitch pages and products.

            You say "quite clearly", ergo show me the clause.
            Its usually part of the manual approval process where a CB rep will request it.

            ....and I'm confident that it was stated in the terms as discussed above, though not any more it seems!
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      • Profile picture of the author FredJones
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        Dude what planet are you on?

        There are always more people dissatisfied than those who refund. What you promote/sell means that a good half of customers are dissatisfied. How do you sleep at night?

        What are you selling that refunds at 30%? Snake oil? My mistake, even snake oil doesn't refund that high!
        ^^ Does this show that digital (mostly IM/MMO) products stand a chance to get refunded even more than Snake Oil, given an auto-refund option, in which I am assuming that Snake Oil is a non-existent product - something that you only pay for but never receive?

        Originally Posted by MaxNiche View Post

        Just logged in to my CB account and here is the screenshot.

        ^^ Good, Moderate Risk etc are all the same, think of these rated at 3 at a scale of 5.

        Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

        Like a baws



        Edit: I have another account with another product, with a green "Good" rating. I can't really figure how this rating is determined.

        The blue very good has had a few more sales, so it must calculate both refunds and quantity of sales. Maybe it also takes time into consideration.
        Originally Posted by admin View Post

        Not sure what they are basing these ratings on. I've had a few refunds recently..


        Not that I have figured anything (and my affiliate account is blue like both the above - the second-best rating - and my refund rates are reasonably low - 4.55% over the past 12 months if I got the numbers right) - but their algorithm seems to be "too sophisticated" or close to random to me so far - not something that I have so far been able to make sense of.

        By the way, any "excellent" rating so far?
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
        Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

        Indeed. MAny people here forget that there is no obligation to declare CBs refund policy. I have some products where I don't do this.

        Sure, my conversion rate is lower. But so is my refund rate.
        That proves that a good amount of refunds are caused by cyber-crooks looking for a free product by asking for a refund even though they are happy with the product.

        Before you can measure a vendors/affiliates performance on a refund metric you need to be able to weed out the people who are just plain stealing.

        In my niche I get people asking all the time if the book is available in stores, why?

        Because they can go there and read it while standing in the store for free, and there is a good possibility that it might be in a library.

        I will guarantee at least half of my refunds are because people want something for nothing - that's why libraries are so popular.

        I think the other half are from my vendor not answering customers emails in a timely manner - that is why I started my own form of customer support with a free forum.

        Maybe this policy change will wake him up - I know there is nothing more I can do to stop refunds from my end.

        I can understand what CB is trying to do, but just like Google they are going about it the wrong way.

        These sophisticated algorithms are wrong more than they are right.

        Plus, if they are "really" worried about losing their credit card processors because of too many refunds or charge backs - why the fees?

        How is making money from people until you close their accounts going to save them from being shut down by their CC processors?

        I would think you would just close their accounts and be done with it - it seems like they are more interested in making some extra money than they are about losing their CC processors.
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      • Profile picture of the author samjaynz
        Although I can see why Clickbank are keen to improve their quality and reputation (ie whoever runs their merchant account is probably the world's most highly-stressed individual) they are going about this the complete wrong way.

        Here's why:

        1) Beyond the affiliates who really over-hype a product and then generate refunds when the customer realizes they have been duped, affiliates don't have any control over the refund rate of a product. As an affiliate I cannot easily contact a customer to make sure everything is okay with the product. Some vendors may make it difficult to get refunds (ie send lots of obfuscating messages that try and skirt the refund problem) whereas others give away refunds like there's no tomorrow.

        Example: I recently promoted a video game guide in a new niche. Made about $600 sales in a week. the VENDOR sent an email saying "hey guys, just remember if you aren't 100% happy you can get a full refund." Next thing you know, around 50% of those sales refunded. Now my account is chilling in the unacceptable category (but that is neither Playboy bunnies, nor classy honeys, because I am ditching CB altogether as we speak)

        You cannot penalize affiliates for something they can't control, especially when CB has such a stupid refund policy.

        2) The refund policy itself is totally whack. 95% of stuff on Clickbank is info-products. You can't "break" an info-product. You don't need 60 days to decide whether you want to return it (while still being able to keep it). In my ideal world, Clickbank would have a 48 hour MAX refund window for info products - maybe longer for software etc that could be buggy and then patched up. If you download an eBook, you can tell within a few minutes of reading/browsing whether you have paid for quality.

        With 60 day refunds, even the most glacial of action takers can go through a course and then decide to refund for some nonsense excuse. I work for a company in my day job that publishes some top products on Clickbank, and the number of outrageous refund requests we get (including things like "hey I'm about to buy - where is the refund button again?" or messages saying "CANCEL" "F$£$ING CANCEL" etc for recurring billing)

        Of course vendors should stop selling on the basis of refunds. However, there should be:

        * The ability to challenge a refund request. If I go into my local electronics store an purchase a laptop, then decide a week later it's not for me, the store has the right to challenge my refund request (and that's considering NZ's very "pro consumer" laws). There should be an ability to reject refund requests.

        * Serial refunders/CCs/Paypals linked to serial refunders need to be banned

        * Product goes invalid/unusable after refund. That's why if you're selling info on CB put it in a members' area and cancel the member's subscription after they download. I would go as far as not allowing anything to be downloaded from the members area - you have to watch it live. eBooks are a bit trickier though.

        Imagine if, when I go to return that laptop I bought a week ago, I said it was my right to keep it. And then I went and purchased 50 other items in the store and did the same. Now do you see the flaw with Clickbank?

        3) Clickbank don't exactly check for quality. There are so many garbage products on there, often hidden behind slick sales pages. The IM niche is particularly nefarious for this. However, no niche escapes this fate. Historically, it has been in Clickbank's interest to accept any product that is not clear nonsense, because they earn from it. Quality control MUST be tightened if this silly color coded policy is to remain.

        Of course it's all over but the crying, and here's why:

        * Clickbank are probably looking to move to a new paradigm where only the big affiliates and product vendors survive. This has been mentioned by other champion minds in this thread before, but I will reiterate. When 5% of your people do 95% of your business, so many "headaches" could be reduced by simply cutting off the little guy.

        * The refund policy won't change, because Clickbank will probably find itself getting speared by the FTC in record time.

        * Clickbank has a long history of ignoring the requests and ideas of its affiliates and members.

        * Clickbank has find a pretty crafty new way of profiting from their own terribly policies. They can now charge over-the-odds for refunds which are actually their own fault.

        What can you, the humble Clickbanker do?

        * Jump ship - start promoting physical products on Amazon etc where the refunds are much lower and conversions are higher.

        * Look into alternatives. I'm liking JVZoo at the moment (I believe E. Brian Rose from these forums runs it? Kudos for such a cool platform if you're reading)

        * Do WSOs for your IM products. At least Warriors tend to have a bit more of an idea that serial refunding isn't cool (seeing as we've all been stung by it in the past)

        * Write angrily to Clickbank and withdraw your support.

        * Start making YOUR OWN PRODUCTS. Sell them through your own delivery channels. Set your own terms. Find your own affiliates.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Here's my new account status. I just logged in and to my surprise this is what I found...






    Joking of course...
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Lol, now my CB account reads Good.

    Tomorrow will probably be classified as Meh...





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  • Profile picture of the author missmystery
    Now I'm too scared to promote clickbank products.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanman
    I have been with clickbank for almost 5 years now, I have nothing but good things to say about them. However, this new change is good and bad for various reasons.

    The bad - As an affiliate, if you're promoting a product which ends up having higher refunds/chargebacks, you get the hammer too. In other words, your destiny isn't within your control anymore.

    2nd - No matter how good a product is, refund rates will definitely remain high on clickbank because of their no questions asked policy. How do I know this? I know some big vendors who have top-notch products & still hit around 10% refunds or more during a 60 day period. The thing is no one openly admits to these numbers.

    Some customers give absolutely ridiculous reasons for refunds & you can clearly tell that, they just want to screw you over.

    The Good -

    It will probably wipe out a ton of low quality products which were questionable to begin with. So they'll have to adapt & improve their quality or will be wiped out.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    We had the technology.
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  • Profile picture of the author missmystery
    Also, if an affiliate writes a pile of crap about a product, then sends them to their landing page, which says nothing of the sort, it's their own fault if they buy it.

    (Not saying I write false information about products, but it's really under the byers control)
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by missmystery View Post

      Also, if an affiliate writes a pile of crap about a product, then sends them to their landing page, which says nothing of the sort, it's their own fault if they buy it.

      (Not saying I write false information about products, but it's really under the byers control)
      To be fair, not all affiliates send their traffic to the vendor squeeze page, I don't.

      I'm an honest guy with my traffic, nothing more than the facts for the product (zero hype) on my custom sales pages. Still, I'm sure there's folks that over hype a product & bypass the vendor squeeze page.

      The reason I bypass the vendor squeeze page is, most vendors have an email optin form directly on their CB squeeze page. I don't part with my traffic for free.
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      • Profile picture of the author wulfgar2012
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        To be fair, not all affiliates send their traffic to the vendor squeeze page, I don't.

        I'm an honest guy with my traffic, nothing more than the facts for the product (zero hype) on my custom sales pages. Still, I'm sure there's folks that over hype a product & bypass the vendor squeeze page.

        The reason I bypass the vendor squeeze page is, most vendors have an email optin form directly on their CB squeeze page. I don't part with my traffic for free.
        doesn't the vendor still get the email anyways?
        if the customer buys , they get the contact info.

        please explain.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by wulfgar2012 View Post

          doesn't the vendor still get the email anyways?
          if the customer buys , they get the contact info.

          please explain.

          The vendor only gets my traffics email If my traffic buys.

          My custom sales page > Click Bank Checkout page
          If I sent traffic to a vendor squeeze page that included an optin form (most do) then my traffic could easily optin to the vendors email without buying, then the sale would be out of my hands with the vendor using an auto-responder.

          I still set the CB cookie, but that could by bypassed in an auto-responder so I simply avoid the potential problem to begin with by sending traffic directly to the checkout page.

          Besides, it's not a smart move to force a potential buyer to view two separate sales pages, that just adds an extra step before purchasing the product. The goal should be moving traffic in as few steps as possible to the checkout page.

          I've found my traffic is more likely to buy when I have my own sales page (trust & no hype).
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    • Profile picture of the author Dominican
      Originally Posted by missmystery View Post

      Also, if an affiliate writes a pile of crap about a product, then sends them to their landing page, which says nothing of the sort, it's their own fault if they buy it.

      (Not saying I write false information about products, but it's really under the byers control)
      Thing is, this will affect the Vendors' quality score too... and what about affiliates who come in, and become an affiliate, under the radar, or outside of the vendor too?

      How is the vendor supposed to keep track of every single affiliate, and every campaign that every affiliate is doing?

      Clickbank is the one who gives them the details to start promoting, though some vendors do advertise to get affiliates, and do have affiliate pages on their websites... it still makes it tricky then, for the Vendor, who has to pay the refund fees/chargeback fees each time.

      AlexaSmith pointed out that part of this issue, is the connection between how the affiliate sells something (the affiliate), the product itself (the vendor), and finally the customer.

      I agree somewhat on that principle too, that the gap can be tightened so the sales funnel is cleaner; however things still get messy even with a clean sales page for the product itself, and a hearty product, up-sells, and bonuses etc... and then the affiliate promotion that is in line.

      I can have campaigns that personally don't get refunded by some customers, but others will refund it. So then is it just a matter of preference, in the customers themselves?

      How about campaigns, that cut out most of the refunds, campaigns that do work (whether it's the vendor advertising, or the affiliate)... are we really suggesting here, that everyone requires a 0% refund rate for ANY CB product?

      There are many areas that, even when cleaned up tightly, or already tightly organized, still have errors; part of which fall on Clickbank heavily right now, because of their new implementation idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheProgrammer
    This is my account status:
    Text changed from "Moderate Risk" to "Good"


    Refund rate (Predicted): 14.65%
    Chargeback rate (Predicted): 0.14%
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    • Profile picture of the author kchui1028
      Originally Posted by TheProgrammer View Post

      This is my account status:
      Text changed from "Moderate Risk" to "Good"


      Refund rate (Predicted): 14.65%
      Chargeback rate (Predicted): 0.14%
      HA.. This is my account.. label as UNACCEPTABLE!?
      AccountRefund Rate(Predicted)14.64%
      AccountChargeback Rate(Predicted)4.11%

      I'm guessing if you only sold one product and gets a charge back, you'll be labeled 100%?? how about 2 products and 1 gets refunded? 50%?

      THE Clickbank risk management system is flawed as crap!
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      • Profile picture of the author TheProgrammer
        Originally Posted by kchui1028 View Post

        HA.. This is my account.. label as UNACCEPTABLE!?
        AccountRefund Rate(Predicted)14.64%
        AccountChargeback Rate(Predicted)4.11%

        I'm guessing if you only sold one product and gets a charge back, you'll be labeled 100%?? how about 2 products and 1 gets refunded? 50%?

        THE Clickbank risk management system is flawed as crap!
        LOL, Our account's refund rate are same. But big difference between chargeback rates.
        I think your account labeled as UNACCEPTABLE due to higher chargebacks.

        hhhmmm. I think so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
      My account status:



      The truth is I do very little with CB as an affiliate and nothing as a vendor. I have been VERY selective in what I have promoted. I feel bad for those of you that have more of a vested interest in this new development. I hope it works out for you somehow.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek S
    Clickbank obviously changed their tier copy as people in green level felt offended for whatever reason by the wording when they happen to be perfectly fine.

    Best thing to come out of this thread is the idea for clickbank to reveal advanced affiliate statistics so we can see what ones might be over hyping our products. This will allow us to "warn/fire" them to start making more realistic clames... Can also allow us to reward our top affiliates easier.

    As an affiliate, I wonder how this applies if I just closed my account and started a fresh one with different details.

    I also am starting a company in india of 300+ employees ready to buy your competitors products and refund them shortly after!!!! As an added bonus I will also not allow them to do the same to you if you pay my over priced monthly fee. Let me know if you're interested in my services* ;D

    Every clickbank vendor should do the same as me over the next two months... Revisit my product and make it better anyway humanly possible. Ramp up customer service to make response times as short as possible, while adding free incentive products to customers to change their minds (like most phone/cable companies haha)

    Also to people on clickbank thinking by making their digital product physical they will lower refunds... ClickBanks terms of service state that you must make your product instantly available digitally as well. If they refund you cannot make it conditional that they send the physical product back.

    People hate change and I can only see clickbank refining and improving this system for years to come. Only way things might change is if some of ClickBanks more well known vendors publicly make a switch to a new or private network... This is one of the reasons we collect affiliate info before sending them to our tools page.


    Fine Print
    =======
    * I am in no way starting this kinda business... however tempting it may be
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

      Also to people on clickbank thinking by making their digital product physical they will lower refunds... ClickBanks terms of service state that you must make your product instantly available digitally as well. If they refund you cannot make it conditional that they send the physical product back.


      Clickbank would be the last thing I would consider using as a payment processor for shipping physical products.

      So yes, you can require a buyer to return the product & also pay return shipping in exchange for a refund (happens everyday outside of CB).

      There's more to IM than CB.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    Like a baws



    Edit: I have another account with another product, with a green "Good" rating. I can't really figure how this rating is determined.

    The blue very good has had a few more sales, so it must calculate both refunds and quantity of sales. Maybe it also takes time into consideration.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      Like a baws



      Edit: I have another account with another product, with a green "Good" rating. I can't really figure how this rating is determined.

      No one else can either, zero refunds/chargebacks doesn't mean anything in the ratings.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Clickbank needs to set better filters. Not just let anything in then penalize for it.

    It's as simple as that really.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dominican
      Originally Posted by John Romaine View Post

      Clickbank needs to set better filters. Not just let anything in then penalize for it.

      It's as simple as that really.
      This is SOOOO true. They supposedly review EVERY product that comes through, yet I often see them penalizing people after the fact, BECAUSE of the product that they approved to begin with.

      Again, penalizing EVERYBODY for the mistakes they are making in the beginning too, for not properly filtering out poor quality products, or products that are not in line with what Clickbank perceives to be good market material in the first place.

      This reminds me of the EzineArticles crackdown, and how much bullshit was involved when they too, decided to implement the stupidest rules, and blame everyone else for their shortcomings with Google.

      EzineArticles ALSO, let all the crap in, and personally approved articles, and then came down on all of their authors hard, when they had troubles... even though it was EzineArticles who approved everything, allowed it, and made their rules such that it could happen...

      The new rules for Clickbank still do not fix the core problems that are causing them to have to put fees and tiers in place, to begin with.

      With all the time they spent making algorithms and other crap, and thinking about absurd charges they can hand down to Vendors and Affiliates, so they don't have to personally be penalized (although they already take percentages from us)... they couldn't come up with a solution that perhaps addressed why they even get penalized as a company in the first place?

      Maybe a solution that looked into what it is that they are allowing, and the standards upon which the products that are being let through themselves, are being upheld by?

      It's sincerely retarded, honestly, and Clickbank, though a very large company, and yes, they make a lot of money... certainly does not prove that they even know what they are doing, by having either of those factors being true, with the new implementation of their 'rules'.

      They need a core structure change and overhaul with how products are even let in, in the first place; they need a refund policy re-consideration as well for that entire funnel, and the gap between affiliates and vendors needs to also be narrowed.

      I know that it's normal for people to freak out when they change the rules to start penalizing, but Clickbank has not entirely made it fair for it's customers (Vendors and Affiliates), who are the ones that GAVE clickbank their status and money in the first place.

      By fair, I of course mean, levelling out the fields so that the new implementation at least makes sense, and addresses the real core concerns; and not just a band-aid for their financial burdens when they have to speak up to their banks and other people, because of their own shortcomings.

      Funny how they blame the little guys (apparently we must be, with this new system they have on the go), for things that they never properly enforced or took care of as a company either.

      Also, they still have not clarified what a good refund rate really is, and have not clarified what their "%" algorithm is either... it's rather confusing.

      It's beyond rude of them to penalize the Vendor for refunds that the affiliate is getting, because the two CAN be separate things; especially if the Vendors' account itself is in good standing, and has a refund rate of 5% and lower...

      Again, the gap between the Vendor and Affiliate is still enough, that penalizing Vendors for retarded affiliates each time, isn't fair either. Sure, Vendors are able to blacklist affiliates, but is that fair if the affiliate just had a bad campaign... or fair if the Vendor can only come to know about an affiliate, once they have already screwed up the status of the Vendors' reputation with CB?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Just god knocking on your door reminding people once again that nothing in this game is forever. Things change. It's not the first time and it won't be the last time. You can either sit here and cry about it or just adjust your plans and move on. I'll let you guess which option makes you the most money.

    Clickbank have been going down hill for a long time now -- it's no secret. Let them make their own mistakes. Had this type of thing happened years ago when there were no other alternatives, they needn't have worried. But nowadays there are a bunch of other networks people can use instead of Clickbank so if they screw around with people too much they will find themselves out of a job.

    IM is their bread and butter and is what built that company into what it is today. Without any IM products they wouldn't be half the company they are now. But that's for them to decide. If they choose to bite the hand that feeds them then they will end up starving.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      IM is their bread and butter and is what built that company into what it is today. Without any IM products they wouldn't be half the company they are now. But that's for them to decide. If they choose to bite the hand that feeds them then they will end up starving.

      That's why I think they're waiting until Jan. 2nd 2013 (new tax year), I'm thinking they're expecting a loss on earnings, otherwise why wouldn't they start this in Nov./Dec. 2012?
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
    Instead of going to all this trouble, I don't know why they didn't just remove IM/MMO/etc type products from the marketplace altogether. This is really what they're doing with this since their backend stats obviously show them that these types of marketplace categories will cease to exist after implementing this system.
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by Robert M Gouge View Post

      Instead of going to all this trouble, I don't know why they didn't just remove IM/MMO/etc type products from the marketplace altogether. This is really what they're doing with this since their backend stats obviously show them that these types of marketplace categories will cease to exist after implementing this system.
      Because they don't want to get rid of all the money/profit that certain MMO products are creating for them.

      I think this rule is more likely designed to get rid of a lot of the small time affiliates and vendors. I have a feeling Clickbank have realized the REAL money for them is in dealing with just a small number of the big product vendors who do the massive launches.

      Less customer service, less headaches and more control over things.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi,

        Just some thoughts -

        1) Regarding the refund policy they have always had, the only logical reason for a 'no questions asked' refund policy is that they had no other choice - if they had tried to make it any more difficult for people to get refunds (therefore making it a better venue for their vendors/affs) presumeably their business model would not have been viable, according to their payment processors.

        Therefore the only logical explanation for this recent change is probably the same - they have no choice - do this or go out of business.

        2) unless I've missed it, noone seems to have mentioned yet that this new system appears to make it much easier and seems to invite actions from the less scrupulous people out there to damage their competitors, whether they be vendors or affiliates, by making multiple purchases, refunding and kicking up a fuss/complaining at the same time etc.

        With a hair-trigger rating system, which changes daily, has high punitive costs and ultimately can lead to terminated accounts, how inviting is that to those less than scrupulous people out there? It's not just competitors either, there are other groups out there who will get the same idea, I reckon.

        (edit - damn, there was only the one page of this thread that I skimmed and there it was - Cool Hand Luke brought this angle up here)
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        • Profile picture of the author Dominican
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi,


          2) unless I've missed it, noone seems to have mentioned yet that this new system appears to make it much easier and seems to invite actions from the less scrupulous people out there to damage their competitors, whether they be vendors or affiliates, by making multiple purchases, refunding and kicking up a fuss/complaining at the same time etc.

          With a hair-trigger rating system, which changes daily, has high punitive costs and ultimately can lead to terminated accounts, how inviting is that to those less than scrupulous people out there? It's not just competitors either, there are other groups out there who will get the same idea, I reckon.
          Yes, I mentioned too, that by the time the Vendor can even catch that, to even attempt to blacklist an affiliate... they would have already had their account standings' damaged.

          It's not fair to the Vendors, because really... a Vendor cannot control nor stop everything that all of the affiliates are doing, and they cannot possibly know of every single affiliate on CB that is promoting them, immediately.

          When the affiliate does not go to the vendor first for approval; but rather goes to CB, and there is no approval process... they just get their link, and begin doing whatever they want...

          Wild west, I tell ya!

          I am not sure how it can be switched around to destroy an affiliates reputation, because the Vendor always had the ability to do that from the get go, with blacklisting/banning/blocking affiliate ID's from their clickbank products.

          Either way, it's pretty nasty... reminds me of when people were abusing the gravity feature, and then some Vendors were getting to the top, but not by honest methods.

          There are many areas of CB's reputation, and rating systems... that basically can be UTTERLY abused, and by the time CB catches it or does anything about it, they do not UNDO any of the damage either, and then other companies are left hanging...
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert M Gouge
        Originally Posted by Joseph Robinson View Post

        IM isn't the only market where crap products exist you know.
        True, but to pretend like the IM/MMO market isn't their highest risk category, and one of the main reasons for this new system is just naive. There's a TON of garbage in this space.

        Why do you think WSO forum is structured as it is? WaFo doesn't want to be held responsible for the quality of products in the IM/MMO space. Because if they were, they'd be experiencing the exact same problems as Clickbank.
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  • Profile picture of the author GetShorty
    Yeah I had to laugh as this new feature of clickbank especially when I read this line:

    "ClickBank has developed sophisticated algorithms"


    I very much doubt that anything sophisticated goes on at clickbank.
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  • Profile picture of the author brettb
    Blue account holder here.

    Remember that ClickBank themselves need to maintain their own reputation. If they get too many people phoning up Visa and doing chargebacks, then they themselves will get thrown out of the schemes they're in.

    Although I guess any company that makes $$$$ from products claiming to allow to you grow taller or run your car on water might not have a good reputation anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author CathyAnn
    Hmmmm, I was just thinking about putting some products on clickbank. I think I'll reevaluate that.

    Thanks everyone for sharing what is happening with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author GoodnightSweetRatRace
      Just been changed from Green (Good) to Blue (Very Good) - Feel like I'm at school again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I wonder if this will lead to a price drop in products.

    People may previously have thought nothing of paying $47 or $67 for something they need badly.

    But with the proliferation of ebooks due to Kindle, maybe a drop in price of Clickbank products will lead to fewer refunds.
    Don't think it would make THAT much of a difference really, the same people who ask for a refund for a $47 are the people who buy $1 products and STILL ask for a refund.

    I never quite understood that, if it was me, I really could care less if I purchased something for a dollar and didn't like it, I really could not be bothered to go through the refund process for a dollar.

    But with that being said, I think thats the reason for WSO being so cheap (in comparison). If people pay a few bucks for something (WSO are generally quite cheap) MOST of the time people just chalk it up as a loss and move on. Most people know this hence the low pricing of a WSO.
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  • Profile picture of the author MaxNiche
    Just logged in to my CB account and here is the screenshot.

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  • Profile picture of the author Raja Kamil
    Congratz CB, another way for you to make a lot of money in the name of, Quality Control
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  • Profile picture of the author Genycis
    I'm still trippin' a bit as to how they're slamming on all of it, but then with affiliates being hit just as hard, I don't know what to make of it. It's not like we can see a refund rate of the product unless we start promoting it and then realize the refunds and chargebacks that may come through. I just went again into CB to make sure I wasn't missing something but there are no stats for any of these items that show refund rates unless you've been promoting them, so especially for newer people to affiliate marketing such as myself who have been doing it for a few months versus those that are well seasoned at it, how would we know what to promote and not? And just because we buy the product and test it doesn't mean it won't have a high refund or chargeback rate.. I may like the product very well that I promote but others may not feel the same at all and then after we promote it and realize the chargebacks and refunds that start coming through, we're doomed. It could be so much as selling 10 of them in a month and getting 1 chargeback and that will more than likely put you in the red... so I guess if you've been doing affiliate marketing for a long time and have a large amount of commissions made as an affiliate for the products you promote, those of us that haven't been doing it long may be doomed. I have 26 sales for a few products and 1 chargeback and 1 refund total between the few products I've made commissions for (not related to IM niche at all) but I'm still flagged as Unacceptable. I'm sure it's because I don't have enough sales to reduce that refund / chargeback percentage down, which to me means, if you're newer to affiliate marketing, start to get a few sales and then get a chargeback or refund, you're doomed. That's how I'm understanding it anyway. I just recently got it to where I've been making a commission or two a week but due to the refund and chargeback, I need to get some more sales to reduce that percentage or I'm done.

    There has to be some better tweaking that they can do with this system before they just cause things to go belly up... but doesn't look like they'll be doing that regardless of how many emails they may receive as a result. Time'll tell though. Hoping they figure out something soon... glad I didn't join as a vendor now. wow!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jerome Y
    Glad I'm out of the whole Clickbank thing for good!

    Still remember the days when the whole INTERNET was at clickbank promoting their stuff, horrible memories.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail Sober
    ClickBank Markup fee (Product Retail Price X 7.5%) + $1.00
    Vendor High Risk Transaction Fee - up to $4
    Affiliate or Joint Venture Partner Refund Fee - up to $3

    Sounds like Clickbank is trying to turn refunds into a profit stream.

    Netflix moment for Clickbank?
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanman
    Here is something I got from one of my visitors who hasn't even made a purchase yet haha -

    How do you return the book with my money back guarantee? How do you cancel? Where do you go? I want to make sure I make the right decision.
    -----

    So it's not difficult to exploit the refund system. Sigh!
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by ryanman View Post

      Here is something I got from one of my visitors who hasn't even made a purchase yet haha -

      How do you return the book with my money back guarantee? How do you cancel? Where do you go? I want to make sure I make the right decision.
      -----

      So it's not difficult to exploit the refund system. Sigh!

      Make the right decision for them.

      Delete.
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  • Profile picture of the author shipwrecked
    My account is also getting a wicked color and message.
    Surprising to find this out today...

    Anyway... there are some questions...

    1.Is this per product or per account?
    2.How often do they update this "color"? Mine says something about January 2nd, 2013. Will they update it then or is this monthly or how?
    3.Is this because we haven't made enough sales or because of high refund rates or what?

    Advice/experiences?
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by shipwrecked View Post

      My account is also getting a wicked color and message.
      Surprising to find this out today...

      Anyway... there are some questions...

      1.Is this per product or per account?
      2.How often do they update this "color"? Mine says something about January 2nd, 2013. Will they update it then or is this monthly or how?
      3.Is this because we haven't made enough sales or because of high refund rates or what?

      Advice/experiences?

      Read this:
      Refunds and Chargebacks


      BTW, just because a person has a green account today doesn't mean anything, the color code changes daily.

      I'm sure it's:
      sales volume / chargebacks/refunds
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      • Profile picture of the author shipwrecked
        I am studying ClickBank's new rules...

        But if it changes daily, if "nothing happens" to an account. No new sales, no refunds, nothing. Zero... than what happens?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I bet Paypal and other processors also has us "rated" for risk. They have algorithms that say - just one more refund or one more sale through the WF WSO and we're locking the account for review or whatever. They just don't publish your risk rating.

    It's also interesting that some are ditching Clickbank and calling them every name in the book when nothing has really happened and won't happen for a while (if it does at all) except they put a colored graphic in the account.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Brains Gone Wild
    I logged into my CB affiliate account and somehow I'm at the highest risk tier?!?!? Really? Nothing but clean sales in my account - absolutely insane! And so begins the death of Clickbank. Ugh...
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Brains Gone Wild View Post

      I logged into my CB affiliate account and somehow I'm at the highest risk tier?!?!? Really? Nothing but clean sales in my account - absolutely insane!
      That does not sound right.

      I assume you are looking at the Transactions Report and have the Refund and Chargeback display options set ON ?

      How far back have you looked ?

      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
    I think the IM industry as a whole is one of few that offer refunds for digital products..

    I can only think of the following, but I'm pretty sure ALL businesses offering digital items DON'T offer refunds -

    iTunes purchases
    Xbox Live/PSN subscriptions, points
    Things like STEAM games, downloadable serials for games etc,
    In game purchases for things such as MMO's (world of warcraft etc)

    Pretty much anything you buy online that's digital doesn't come with a money back guarantee, so why do IM products?
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      I think the IM industry as a whole is one of few that offer refunds for digital products..

      I can only think of the following, but I'm pretty sure ALL businesses offering digital items DON'T offer refunds -

      iTunes purchases
      Xbox Live/PSN subscriptions, points
      Things like STEAM games, downloadable serials for games etc,
      In game purchases for things such as MMO's (world of warcraft etc)

      Pretty much anything you buy online that's digital doesn't come with a money back guarantee, so why do IM products?

      Maybe because you can demo the products you listed?
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      • Profile picture of the author Josh Monroe
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        Maybe because you can demo the products you listed?
        Nope, you can't demo them. The only 'demo' available is a 30 second snippet for iTunes purchases, no demo for anything else listed, especially the membership subscriptions and points.
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        • Profile picture of the author Poohnix
          I don't think anyone here has mentioned yet that clickbank actually publish what is acceptable or not. If you preview the control (there is a link on your main page), you can click on the refund rate and chargeback rate, and it tells you that below 15% refunds and below 1% chargebacks, are "in Good Standing".

          My - purely affiliate - account is "Unacceptable", apparently due to a Chargeback rate of 1.63%...
          Looking back, I see that in the past 3 months, 3 out of 5 chargebacks - and 80% of the amount! - was ONE customer, charging back recurring charges for a course, paid way back in March-April-May....
          I promote IM products, but use nothing but the Vendors own materials in my promotions. Nothing home-spun. Still, I will be penalized...

          So far this year I've turned over around 45K via Clickbank, but most of it was during the first few months. But when chargebacks comes MONTHS after the sales, it seemly doesn't matter what I do NOW - I'm still screwed.
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        • Profile picture of the author yukon
          Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

          Nope, you can't demo them. The only 'demo' available is a 30 second snippet for iTunes purchases, no demo for anything else listed, especially the membership subscriptions and points.

          So your saying Xbox has games that don't have demos or at the very least a trailer type video of the game? I haven't played games for years, maybe things have changed in that niche IDK?

          I wouldn't ever buy a game I couldn't demo, unless it was a 2nd+ version of a game that I already liked.
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    • Profile picture of the author Brains Gone Wild
      Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post

      I think the IM industry as a whole is one of few that offer refunds for digital products..

      I can only think of the following, but I'm pretty sure ALL businesses offering digital items DON'T offer refunds -

      iTunes purchases
      Xbox Live/PSN subscriptions, points
      Things like STEAM games, downloadable serials for games etc,
      In game purchases for things such as MMO's (world of warcraft etc)

      Pretty much anything you buy online that's digital doesn't come with a money back guarantee, so why do IM products?
      Josh - great point! There should absolutely be a greater level of protection for info sellers!
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  • Profile picture of the author TrafficBot
    I've read through this entire thread and no one mentioned what would happen if your are deemed "unacceptable" after Jan. 1 2013. I'll tell you, this is the GREAT CLICKBANK CASH GRAB. Our accounts will be terminated and any moneys in them will be forfeited en masse. This number is obviously probably in the millions if not 10's of millions. This is Clickbank's new business model for 2013 and beyond. Their current business model has fallen off a cliff, so they are dusting themselves off and rolling out a new concept: how to profit off of refunds, chargebacks and account terminations. The writing was on the wall months ago. Nevertheless, I am preparing for Clickbank's armageddon Jan 2 2013 by swapping out all my clickbank affiliate links and sending them to my squeeze pages instead. Thank goodness Clickbank is not my bread and butter now.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Originally Posted by TrafficBot View Post

      I've read through this entire thread and no one mentioned what would happen if your are deemed "unacceptable" after Jan. 1 2012. I'll tell you, this is the GREAT CLICKBANK CASH GRAB. Our accounts will be terminated and any moneys in them will be forfeited en masse. This number is obviously probably in the millions if not 10's of millions. This is Clickbank's new business model for 2013 and beyond. Their current business model has fallen off a cliff, so they are dusting themselves off and rolling out a new concept: how to profit off of refunds and account terminations. The writing was on the wall months ago. Nevertheless, I am preparing for Clickbank's armageddon Jan 2 2012 by swapping out all my clickbank affiliate links and sending them to my squeeze pages instead. Thank goodness Clickbank is not my bread and butter now.

      That's another reason why I pulled down all my sales pages/links that were pointing at the CB checkout pages. Something just doesn't feel right about Jan. 2 2013 (why would they wait for a new tax year?).

      I have 1 CB check that still needs to clear.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by TrafficBot View Post

      I've read through this entire thread and no one mentioned what would happen if your are deemed "unacceptable" after Jan. 1 2012. I'll tell you, this is the GREAT CLICKBANK CASH GRAB. Our accounts will be terminated and any moneys in them will be forfeited en masse. This number is obviously probably in the millions if not 10's of millions. This is Clickbank's new business model for 2013 and beyond. Their current business model has fallen off a cliff, so they are dusting themselves off and rolling out a new concept: how to profit off of refunds and account terminations. The writing was on the wall months ago. Nevertheless, I am preparing for Clickbank's armageddon Jan 2 2012 by swapping out all my clickbank affiliate links and sending them to my squeeze pages instead. Thank goodness Clickbank is not my bread and butter now.

      Well that will certainly bring on some good lawsuits... ClickBank cannot keep the money earned from your products that you legally own but they can increase the fees which in effect they certainly have.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

        Well that will certainly bring on some good lawsuits... ClickBank cannot keep the money earned from your products that you legally own but they can increase the fees which in effect they certainly have.

        Google Adsense does it everyday on banned accounts. Just saying.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Google Adsense does it everyday on banned accounts. Just saying.
          You don't own nothing that Google sells, ClickBank wholesales your products...

          It would be like a wholesaler keeping your merchandise and your money. Just because it's online doesn't mean it's legal.

          When you open a Google Adsense account YOU are working for Google...
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

            You don't own nothing that Google sells, ClickBank wholesales your products...

            It would be like a wholesaler keeping your merchandise and your money. Just because it's online doesn't mean it's legal.

            When you open a Google Adsense account YOU are working for Google...

            They still have lawyers creating their TOS, probably something in the fine print.

            All I know is I'm done with their nonsense & I'm defiantly not waiting for Jan. 2nd 2013 to try & cash out.
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            • Profile picture of the author vendor
              "a king has his reign and then he dies. it's inevitable"

              Prometheus
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            • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post


              All I know is I'm done with their nonsense & I'm defiantly not waiting for Jan. 2nd 2013 to try & cash out.
              That's not the date to be worried about.

              It's 50 or 100 days after that date depending on what tier you're at.
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              • Profile picture of the author yukon
                Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                That's not the date to be worried about.

                It's 50 or 100 days after that date depending on what tier you're at.

                Not necessarily, considering an account can be green on 1/2/2013 & red on 1/3/2013. The color code changes daily.

                * Risk management tiers are assessed on a daily basis.
                As far as I can see the points are awarded 1 positive point per day, I don't see anything that says CB subtracts 1 point at a time (100 days). Looks like it's possible to go from green to red overnight.
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                • Profile picture of the author Poohnix
                  Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                  As far as I can see the points are awarded 1 positive point per day, I don't see anything that says CB subtracts 1 point at a time (100 days). Looks like it's possible to go from green to red overnight.
                  Incorrect.
                  Yes, you can go from Green to Red overnight, but Red lose 2 points per day, they are NOT instantly closed.
                  Clickbank says exactly this if you preview the control:

                  Quality Point Score

                  Effective January 2, 2013, all accounts will be assigned 100 points. Points will be added or subtracted based on their daily Risk Tier as follows:
                  Unacceptable accounts will lose 2 points per day.
                  Borderline accounts will lose 1 point per day.
                  Good, Very Good, and Excellent accounts will gain 1 point per day up to a maximum of 100 points.
                  So if you are Green, and have 100 points, you would still have 50 days if you are switched to Red.
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                  • Profile picture of the author yukon
                    Originally Posted by Poohnix View Post

                    Incorrect.
                    Yes, you can go from Green to Red overnight, but Red lose 2 points per day, they are NOT instantly closed.
                    Clickbank says exactly this if you preview the control:



                    So if you are Green, and have 100 points, you would still have 50 days if you are switched to Red.
                    I guess I missed that 2 points per day part looking at CB pages.

                    Doesn't matter, I'm already out, my last check was issued today.
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                • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                  Originally Posted by yukon View Post

                  Not necessarily, considering an account can be green on 1/2/2013 & red on 1/3/2013. The color code changes daily.
                  If a persons tier is red they still have 50 days until termination from the 2nd Jan being taxed 2 points per day.

                  No-one is likely to have clamps put on withdrawals within that time. Withdrawals will only be impossible or less likely when the account is terminated - namely the "allowance" being an issue which is CB's insurance against refunds - the sum of which is held for 6 pay periods. That's either 3 weeks (bi-weekly payout) or 6 weeks (weekly payout) that will go beyond the termination date.

                  With that in mind, it could be a good idea for people to switch to bi-weekly payout if they haven't already. This will possibly shorten that overhang of due funds.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              They still have lawyers creating their TOS, probably something in the fine print.

              All I know is I'm done with their nonsense & I'm defiantly not waiting for Jan. 2nd 2013 to try & cash out.

              Again, just because it's in their terms of service doesn't mean it cannot be challenged in a court of law if it's unlawful and unethical. "Fine Print" doesn't cut it anymore. Also a TOS cannot trump the law.
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              • Profile picture of the author celente
                I didnt think this thread would drag on, but I make my living from clickbank and I can now see why this is such a drama.

                I have not had any of my accounts closed and only one of them is borderline, and that is for the niche that I do not really concentrate much on.

                I am waiting with baited breath to see where this ends up as other forums are talking about this as well. Clickbank has the monopoly and they know it, but I am not sure they are doing us all a favour by bringing this in.
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                • Profile picture of the author John Pin
                  One of my accounts is "Unacceptable" and has a "predicted" chargeback rate of 4%...

                  I had ONE chargeback in the last 2 years!
                  I don't know what they're smokin' but it sure isn't quality sh*t.

                  I can just see some European/Russian/Chinese/Etc folks scrambling to pick up the gold Clickbank just threw away.

                  I'm gonna miss you Clickbank, but I'm gonna enjoy seeing you go down...
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  • Profile picture of the author PadB
    This is quite similar to CDR (customer distribution requirement) that clickbank applied under paychecks.

    -------------------------------------------

    "Customer Distribution Requirement

    ClickBank will withhold payment of any account balance until the following criteria is met:

    Sales made with 5 or more different credit card numbers; and,
    Sales made with two different payment methods (either Visa, MasterCard, PayPal or European Direct Debit(ELV)). Note: PayPal purchases do not count toward the minimum 5 different credit card numbers.
    This requirement is in place to help prevent Affiliates from abusing the ClickBank Affiliate program by using their accounts for the sole purpose of fraudulently collecting rebates and/or discounts on their own purchases.

    Once you have met the Customer Distribution Requirement, your account will begin issuing payments normally, in accordance with our Accounting Policy, beginning on the next payment issuing date."
    ---------------------------------------

    How do we know Paypal or credit cards would be the choices of customers? To get our check, we have to wait for 5 credit card paying customers for the product they buy. This logic is similar to Color Code Risk Tier that we see now. Unbelievable!
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  • Profile picture of the author shipwrecked
    They are giving us more headaches, which only adds to the Google Panda, Penguin-created worries...

    ClickBank seemed to be a good alternative, now many will look for "ClickBank alternatives".

    This harsh new ClickBank policy won't do much good to ClickBank either! If you're a new seller, instead of letting you develop, they punish you so harsh... does that help anyone? I don't think so...

    Yes, maybe they're full of little income-bringing accounts, but this whole thing won't be to their advantage.
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    • Profile picture of the author celente
      Originally Posted by shipwrecked View Post


      Yes, maybe they're full of little income-bringing accounts, but this whole thing won't be to their advantage.
      yup that is what I was thinking, eventually clickbank will work out this is either a big help, or a major drama of mistakes.

      You see, clickabnk are no dummy, they are doing a test with this. Just to see. Then they will either keep it or leave it.
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  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    Ooh, ooh, ooh, here's mine!

    "Good Your account is currently tiered as good.* If your account remains in this tier after January 2, 2013, it will not be subject to any additional vendor fees. It will be subject to chargeback fees your account is affiliated with."

    Who cares?
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    • Profile picture of the author Wayne
      Originally Posted by aiaiai View Post

      When I began reading this thread on my mobile phone last night I was worried but today I logged in at Clickbank and my rating is "excellent".

      I'm also in the IM niche with several products (as an affiliate) but I don't get more than 3% refund rates. I wonder what some people are doing with these products so that they end up with a poor rating...

      As far as I'm concerned providing original and helpful content and adding Clickbank links still works pretty well.

      I like the changes and I can't wait to see the crappy products getting weeded out in February / March 2013
      I like this move also. I don't do a lot with Clickbank anymore, because it is too much work weeding out the crap from the good products, and I can't be an expert in all topics. After January I may look into promoting more products again if they show this information in the marketplace.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nikhil V Nair
    Just imagine the amount of harm many of the Clickbank products
    did to the poor people through the internet. The whole internet is
    filled with fake reviews.

    Watch TV on PC
    3 Day Acne Cure
    Make Millions in a Few Days
    Download Movies and Music for Free

    Thousands of affiliates are filling the internet with fake reviews.

    Everybody has one "Great Excuse"
    Clickbank Offers 60 Days Moneyback Guarantee

    Think about this

    1) Human power required to to process hundred of refunds every day
    2) The bad impression created in the minds of people
    about Clickbank
    3) Many people don't know how to get a refund
    4) Credit card companies are fed up with charge back requests
    5) The Government may be looking into these problems

    Just a refund policy excuse is not enough

    Clickbank is also equally responsible. It took them years and a bunch of complaints to realise that fake promise of movie and music download is illegal

    Clickbank, Affiliates and Vendors are reaping the fruit of their Own Karmas.

    I don't know whether this new rule is a great rule but some change is necessary.

    Doing illegal and unethical things and justifying them is not good.

    Just my thoughts
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  • Profile picture of the author Wayne
    I also believe that many vendors will be dropping their prices to try and improve their ratings. A lot of people disagree with me on this, but a lot of the products on Clickbank are way overpriced. Everyone wants to make as much money as they can, but sometimes it can backfire.
    I had purchased a product earlier this year, which allowed you to create posts automatically with fairly decent content (as long as you didn't try to create thousands of posts all at once). Everything was going great and many people were making a lot of money by putting adsense on their pages. But then people got greedy and decided to start backdating posts 7-10 years in the past and creating 10,000 or more posts on their site all at once to make the big money much quicker. Google caught on and many peoples adsense accounts were disabled or their sites were deindexed. I'm kind of glad this happened, because I decided to stick with the original plan and it is still working for me. The money comes in slower but it is still working for me. The forum on that site has gone dead because it stopped working for so many people.
    It's nice to see the big dollar checks, but the people spending their money have to be happy with what they are receiving for the cash they are spending.
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  • Profile picture of the author realaffiliatereviews
    i myself have started switching over to my own platform until something better comes around. being able to offer your products through your own platform cuts down on refunds since you are in charge of your own support and can help clients with any issues they have. with clickbank, people buying IM products know that they can just buy and refund almost immediately and get everything for free. i also add a members area so anyone that does get a refund, loses access to their members account.

    i actually just added a $50 CPA payout to my platform which ensures my affiliates will get paid for their efforts and wont have to worry about refunds, just like promoting through a CPA network.
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  • Profile picture of the author coolidge
    What happened to clickbank? They are already losing affiliates and vendors to clicksure and now they put these risk factors in. Looks like clickbank wants to close the door and retire
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Ken Russell
    ClickBank has gone bipolar. They change my account status risk level every hour.

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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    SO...

    For someone like myself, who is going to sell multiple digital/physical products through ONE website...and would also like to implement an affiliate program...who should I go with besides Clickbank?
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  • Profile picture of the author realaffiliatereviews
    hey dayne, i would say you get a merchant account, and then hook it all up through 1shoppingcart. that is what i have done with my products. i havent had any issues with refunds or chargebacks since i switched.

    with 1shoppingcart, you can also setup pay per click, per sale, etc. so you can setup offers like a cpa offer. i have an offer setup as a $50 per $4.95 trial offer and the affiliate system tracks very well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Originally Posted by realaffiliatereviews View Post

      hey dayne, i would say you get a merchant account, and then hook it all up through 1shoppingcart. that is what i have done with my products. i havent had any issues with refunds or chargebacks since i switched.

      with 1shoppingcart, you can also setup pay per click, per sale, etc. so you can setup offers like a cpa offer. i have an offer setup as a $50 per $4.95 trial offer and the affiliate system tracks very well.
      Yeah, I do love 1SC, I've used it in the past. But not really wanting to spend around $100 a month to use it until I KNOW for a fact my products sell really well.

      Is there another system that can be integrated with Paypal to create an affiliate program?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan View Post

        Is there another system that can be integrated with Paypal to create an affiliate program?
        There are a lot of self installed scripts around you can use but an easy and cheap solution is www.e-junkie.com. Pricing starts at $5 a month.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author TeamBringIt
    This is indeed bad news and clickbank is going, to be ditched by 1000s of vendors. It sucks that they do this to innocent vendors and in the end clickbank will become just like ebay-- ditched.
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  • Profile picture of the author Broderick Boyd
    Not sure what this is about, I can see if someones product is having very high amounts of refunds, but it seems like the risk is generally more on the product owners side of things.

    -Brody
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  • Profile picture of the author letsmakeamillion
    So to be clear... once an affiliate is 'terminated' then that is it? Lights out, banned IP and never again allowed to promote clickbank products ?

    Please tell me the above is not true.

    If it is then my entire business plan I was about to pursue to promote CB is a no go (the risk would simply be too high). Imagine an affiliate setting up a huge promotion drive to promote 100 CB products.. then for a month or two there is a period of high Chargebacks or refunds completely BEYOND that affiliates control. So then their status is near death and they get banned and all their work up to that point is wiped out by Clickbanks ban ? Unbelievable.

    This new rating system seems like it will be a massive death tax on the entire system. I am quite shocked actually they are taking such a high risk implementing this plan. It is a complete change in business model.

    A LOT of chargebacks occur when customers see CLCKBNK*com on their credit card statement and then immediately assume it must be a fraudelent charge and then just call their credit company and tell them to issue a chargeback!! I admit I do this as well whenever I see something strange looking on my credit card statement I immediately assume that I never purchased such an item when it looks so confusing what the heck it actually is.

    CLICKBANK should be MANDATING that vendors send very clear statements and communications with customers about how the charge will appear on their statements.

    What if an affiliate is promoting hundreds of CB products? and has multiple promotion venues... how on earth are the going to be able to improve their rating within a month or two, impossible...
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  • Profile picture of the author meganwilliams141
    Here's mine. Looks like they suddenly changed the "moderate risk" to "good". Perhaps to sound better. lol

    Your account is currently tiered as good.* If your account remains in this tier after January 2, 2013, it will not be subject to any additional vendor fees. It will be subject to chargeback fees your account is affiliated with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amirol
      Mine...



      But I'm moving my products to self-hosted system. We cannot fully trust and depend on CB.
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  • Profile picture of the author letsmakeamillion
    so once the new rating system is established next year, is it safe to say that if you *only* promote products with A+ quality rating, then you as an affiliate will unlikely ever get in serious trouble ?
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  • Profile picture of the author PotPieGirl
    Originally Posted by tonyt3000 View Post

    well clicksure here we go my account on clickbank is on moderate risk so if they close my account i just will use clicksure for all my affiliate promotions.
    Not to bad mouth Clicksure...but...

    There was a product I was interested in reviewing for possible promotion that was sold thru Clicksure. Since I naturally wanted to review it first, I went thru the sales funnel and attempted to buy everything offered (if you're gonna review, ya gotta review ALL of it, right?).

    Anyway, this product had two upsells... while using my bank card, the first main sale went thru fine... the first upsell purchase went thru fine. But then, on that 3rd purchase (the 2nd upsell), my card was declined.

    Needless to say, that totally freaked me out! Turns out my bank locked my card down due to suspicious and possibly fraudulent activity to a suspicious over-seas merchant.

    Build your own conclusions on that.

    We can fuss and moan over Clickbank, but bottom line is, they are a solid and reputable company.

    Jennifer
    ~PotPieGirl
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
      Originally Posted by PotPie Queen View Post

      We can fuss and moan over Clickbank, but bottom line is, they are a solid and reputable company.
      They are "solid and reputable", but they are handling this situation incorrectly in my opinion.

      They need a way to differentiate between the people stealing products (digital downloads) that they get to keep and use after the refund, and actual dissatisfied customers.

      I have been promoting the same product for 4 years, and it was only in the last year or so that refunds started getting out of hand.

      Do you think maybe because the economy was down that more people started saying "screw it", and asked for refunds just to save money?

      Click Bank seems to think every refund is an actual dissatisfied customer - yeah right!

      CB makes their money through affiliates, and now they are just turning their backs on the real issues and 'charging fees'...they should be charging the people who ask for refunds, and splitting the money with us.

      When someone can just get a refund (without returning the product) by saying they weren't satisfied, this creates a great opportunity for thieves.

      I am not 'fussing and moaning' I am asking for a way to differentiate between what is a real dissatisfied customer, and a crook.

      It seems as the middleman that would be a part of CB's job - just like Walmart hires security to protect the merchandise they sell.

      As of now - their refund policy/system sucks, and it seems like they are blaming the vendors and affiliates for their easy to manipulate refund system.

      I am not saying every product being sold on CB is good, and every affiliate/vendor is honest, but CB sure isn't taking the cyber-crooks who manipulate the refund system into account when they are rating accounts.
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      • Profile picture of the author PotPieGirl
        All very good points.

        Now, more than ever, it is really important for vendors to make it so that people CANNOT keep the product if they refund.

        As an affiliate, I think I will be more likely than ever to promote a product that is also locked down so the customer cannot refund and keep the product. (which makes me think that as a vendor, it is a good idea to TELL potential affiliates that people can't buy, refund, and keep the product).

        And since you brought up Wal-Mart... it is super easy to get a refund there...whether you bought it there or not, have your receipt, etc. BUT, if I'm not mistaken, they give store credit in many cases.

        Now, that would be an interesting idea for Clickbank people to consider. When people request a refund, they do not get their money back, but get a "store credit" to use for other Clickbank products. Perhaps in situations where it was a pdf or something that can't be "returned" or access removed to.

        Just thinking out loud =)

        Jennifer
        ~PotPieGirl
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        • Profile picture of the author Scott Strickland
          Originally Posted by PotPie Queen View Post

          All very good points.

          And since you brought up Wal-Mart... it is super easy to get a refund there...whether you bought it there or not, have your receipt, etc. BUT, if I'm not mistaken, they give store credit in many cases.
          I don't know about 'super easy'.

          You still need to return the product, and if you buy a car battery, you cannot return it, even if your car doesn't start the very next morning after you had it installed.

          But, I argued with the assistant store manager (for about 30 minutes), and got my refund...lol

          BTW - it was not posted anywhere in the store that car batteries are not returnable.

          Originally Posted by PotPie Queen View Post

          Now, that would be an interesting idea for Clickbank people to consider. When people request a refund, they do not get their money back, but get a "store credit" to use for other Clickbank products. Perhaps in situations where it was a pdf or something that can't be "returned" or access removed to.
          That is an excellent idea, and would work towards sorting out the crooks from people who didn't get what they wanted - you should be running CB...lol

          I know if I ever launch a product, it will be in the same way you have yours - locked down in a membership area.
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    • Profile picture of the author OnlineAddict
      Originally Posted by PotPie Queen View Post

      Needless to say, that totally freaked me out! Turns out my bank locked my card down due to suspicious and possibly fraudulent activity to a suspicious over-seas merchant.

      Build your own conclusions on that.
      No offence, but the fraud team of your bank is a bunch of mentally challenged people, who consider any merchant outside of the US a fraudulent merchant. Not sure if its funny or tragic, but its definitely retarded.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Blades