How ethical is this guy/girl/organization?

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 03:11 PM

Ok, there is copywriting, and then there is outright lying. There is a difference between showing a user why something will help them, and then basically trying to totally deceive them.

I'm not sure which guy (or girl) is doing this (or small group of individuals), but someone is making a killing with CPA advertisements by lying (educated guess actually probably a few millions at least within only a few months, based on what I've seen). Basically, 100% totally deceptive copy designed to trick people into making a purchase. Whether or not the product works, do you think the 'means' of getting there is good?

It is a variation of the 'chedda the hustla' government grants thing (cheddadahustla dot com). And I'm assuming it's the same guy.

Here are some sample websites, but I've literally come across about 30-40 of these sites, just different variations. And the main focus is on google cash, but then there are the 'goverment grant' ones, and basically anything to do with "free" money (which actually costs about $100/month until you cancel your subscription).

Here are some sample sites (I am deliberately posting them with the 'dot' com because when you visit, cut & paste the link into a new browser, so the guy doesn't notice visitors from this site):

coreyhasmoney dot com
kevincashesout dot com
kevingetsgreen dot com
nickgetsgreen dot com

What is deceptive about these advertisements is:

a) Obviously it is a lie. Unless every single individual here has a 'boring accounting' job and they just happened to find a bunch of accountants with boring lives. (There were literally 10+ sites I found like this).
b) All of them just happened to get married (or variation) thereof
c) And 'supposedly' people comment on their "blog" (actually they are planted/crafted comments, and then says "Blog closed for spamming" to make people 'think' that they are legitimate comments.
d) The cheques are the same, etc, etc.
e) They use geotargeting (some of the sites at least).

So basically the copy is designed to appeal to people's fear of the economy, to their greed (easy money/easy cash), and they lie in the process to do it (i.e., geotargeting to say 'Gosh! I'm from city XYZ JUST LIKE YOU!'), and then use fake documentation, fake comments, etc, etc. But the story is a complete fabrication designed to get people to "trust" the content, and then part with their money "trusting" that the story is true. It is not good copywriting, it is *lying*.

What do you think of it? Do you think the ends justify the means?

markcarraway · 04-01-2009, 03:36 PM

Personally I hate to see this kind of blatant snake oil tactics. I think it cheapens us all.

Sadly, they are probably making a killing from this, duping people who may never buy another product again.

Oh well....

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Yes, I admit -- I am usually pretty good at sniffing out 'scams' -- but the first time I saw a variation of this site -- I actually thought it was legit... Even the bit about buying the program (I was thinking, well if it's legit -- ok, so he wants to be an affiliate, makes sense...) But then started seeing more and more of these sites popping up to target different demographics (i.e., ones for women, old people, really young people, etc, etc) and started realizing it was specially crafted deceptive sales copy designed to appeal to the different demographics.

JoshuaCreighton · 04-01-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnathan

What do you think of it? Do you think the ends justify the means?

Um, no. Absolutely not.

I think it's pathetic. These are the type of marketers that I think most people on the Warrior Forum would want to distance themselves from. Sure, some fear-based marketing tactics work really well (i.e. "can you really afford not to invest in this product?"), but there's such a thing as going too far. Using scare tactics to get people to part with their money just seems wrong to me.

Then again, the rule of caveat emptor should always apply to these types of things.

TerryTelford · 04-01-2009, 03:59 PM

Hi Johnathan

Great post! The end does not justify the means. There is more to business than making money. When all is said and done, the real winners are the business owners who have been able to help people achieve their individual goals and add value to their lives.

I have seen the sites you're talking about and other similar ones. If you right click on the site and view source, you'll see there's lots of scripts in there to make you think that the person in the site is actually from the town or city you live in. There is nothing wrong with that type of script when you use it to personalize a website, but like any script, put it in the wrong hands and you get an undesired result.

Talk again soon.

Enjoy your day!
Terry

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryTelford

Hi Johnathan

Great post! The end does not justify the means. There is more to business than making money. When all is said and done, the real winners are the business owners who have been able to help people achieve their individual goals and add value to their lives.

I have seen the sites you're talking about and other similar ones. If you right click on the site and view source, you'll see there's lots of scripts in there to make you think that the person in the site is actually from the town or city you live in. There is nothing wrong with that type of script when you use it to personalize a website, but like any script, put it in the wrong hands and you get an undesired result.

Talk again soon.

Enjoy your day!
Terry

Hi Terry,

Thanks -- yes, I agree. There is nothing wrong with making money -- if you are honest about it. But these websites are so highly 'crafted', pyschological engineering, etc -- it just doesn't sit right. And yes, this same guy (or group of people) are also using it for 'government grants', 'free money from the government', etc, etc. Ironically, from what I understand, these "programs" basically cost $100/month, and it's very difficult to 'cancel' your subscription.

And, the sad thing in many cases is this is specifically targeted to those who feel they 'need' to make money, and might not necessarily be able to depart with it. (I.e., for someone who has to stop and think about whether they should walk for two hours to get to a location, instead of spending $2 for bus fare, because it would make a big difference).

Learnanew · 04-01-2009, 04:11 PM

Wow, that guy made over 1 million?

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Learnanew

Wow, that guy made over 1 million?

That's an estimate (my personal estimate). He could be making a lot more. From what I've seen (how he's approached it, the buzz he's created, etc), the fact that he can afford to create (apparently) some 100+ sites along these lines, I would say at least 1 million, if not a lot more.

BigBenForCanton · 04-01-2009, 04:19 PM

Funny how selective 'ethics' are. It's also even funnier how many people would do the same thing if they knew how.

jasonl70 · 04-01-2009, 04:29 PM

Why do you guys think it is the same guy doing this?
While it is certainly possible, I think it is also equally likely that other ethicly challenged affiliates are simply copying it.

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonl70

Why do you guys think it is the same guy doing this?
While it is certainly possible, I think it is also equally likely that other ethicly challenged affiliates are simply copying it.

Actually, I would say it is the same guy, because it is the same style of written, same methods of promotion, etc, etc.

Johnathan · 04-01-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBenForCanton

Funny how selective 'ethics' are. It's also even funnier how many people would do the same thing if they knew how.

I disagree. I know *how* to do what he is doing. But I'm not. I think it is wrong.

MeTellYou · 04-02-2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reflex712

I disagree also!

come on dude. if you want to be part of this forum, make a good impression at least. take a few seconds to actually think about the post you just read. I know you're trying to bump your post count, but people are actually reading this stuff

MeTellYou · 04-02-2009, 12:46 AM

I really think that this kinda action makes salesmen and marketers look all like snake oil... my goodness... I spent hours with a friend of mine trying to explain to him that real marketing is not forcing or cheating someone into doing something, but it's helping people out...

artwebster · 04-02-2009, 12:52 AM

Since being much more closely associated with internet marketing, I am surprised that you find this so surprising!

I think I have seen more lies and false claims in a week of internet marketing advertising than I have seen in ten years of real world advertising.

The biggest lie of all - "Contact our help desk if you need any assistance".

I have become totally disillusioned with the whole circus because, while there are some rare and honest people out there, they are not influencing the huge influx of new internet marketers who, learning a new trade, have a simple 'monkey see - monkey do' attitude. The question 'Is this right or moral?' never comes into the equation because they suffer saturation levels of lies and immorality.

They don't get the opportunity to learn any better!

04-02-2009, 12:55 AM

A lot of the folks running these copycat sites aren't making much money. I believe "Chedda" actually lost money from a combination of shaved commissions and unmonitored PPC spending. People were clicking his ads because of how absurd they were, not because they actually were interested in buying something. Not necessarily what he or any level-headed PPC marketer is going for.

archer29 · 04-02-2009, 03:41 AM

Fortunately, backpagedotcom is exposing this scam by listing all the sites that are fraudulent except for the last one which belongs to melanie cuz she has the real deal on government grants. Well, maybe not but she made the first page on google.

No way I clicked on her site even though I have cookies blocked.

Johnathan · 04-02-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer29

Fortunately, backpagedotcom is exposing this scam by listing all the sites that are fraudulent except for the last one which belongs to melanie cuz she has the real deal on government grants. Well, maybe not but she made the first page on google.

No way I clicked on her site even though I have cookies blocked.

Is that website correct? The one you listed seems to go to a classified ads site? :P

Johnathan · 04-02-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueFartzen

A lot of the folks running these copycat sites aren't making much money. I believe "Chedda" actually lost money from a combination of shaved commissions and unmonitored PPC spending. People were clicking his ads because of how absurd they were, not because they actually were interested in buying something. Not necessarily what he or any level-headed PPC marketer is going for.

First off, have to say, funny picture

Not sure if that is you or some pic you found off the internet, but niiiiiiiiice moustache.

As for the unmonitored PPC, etc -- do you have any sources where you read that? From what I've seen, the converse is true because this guy seems to be going crazy, buying up ads across the board (not only one ad source like google, etc). Almost literally 'plastering' the internet with his ads. And hasn't really slowed down. And you don't do that if you are losing money.

Johnathan · 04-02-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artwebster

The biggest lie of all - "Contact our help desk if you need any assistance".

haha, yes... I know of one (really annoying) company that -- although they do about 100 million/year in business (last time I checked, probably about 300-400 million now) -- they absolutely *refuse* to have any kind of phone support (I don't believe you can find a real phone number off their website, I've looked), and any 'support' requests they pretty much 'time' it to take exactly 1 day to get back to you. If they don't like your question, they don't answer it, but instead answer a different part of your e-mail. And you need to wait another full day for a response. (It's a game to them).

I.e.,

You: What is your phone number? You guys did this incorrectly.

[1 business day]

Them: Thanks for your e-mail. We will look into that.

[3 business days later, no response]

You: Hi, haven't heard back from you. What's your phone number?

[1 business day later]

Them: Hi, thanks for contacting us. We noticed you sent your e-mail from this city, what time zone are you in?

etc, etc.

But anyways........

The real issue that I have with the sites above is the fact that it is so deceitful, and so specially crafted to 'trick' peope into making a purchase using pretty much every psychological trick in the book that could think of. From "fake" wordpress blog entries, to "fake" geotargeting, to a "fake" sob story to make someone feel sad, to a "fake" 'get-rich-quick' scheme that is so low key that it is almost believeable.

Didier Faucher · 04-02-2009, 12:37 PM

Quoted from coreyhasmoney:
"My name is Corey Peters. I am originally from the Villeneuve-sur-lot, 97 area."

Villeneuve-sur-Lot is in France, department ("area") number 47, not 97.
97 are overseas departments (Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe, La Réunion).

Didier

Randy Bheites · 04-02-2009, 12:56 PM

There is unethical and there is illegal.

As far as ethics, it's a personal choice whether or not to stretch the "limits of creative selling". There is a grey area to all marketing. The "best"? Really? "World-famous"? What, because it's on the internet? Etcetera. We all engage in hyperbole to an extent, it's the nature of selling.

It comes down to how comfortable you are personally, where your own inner moral compass tells you the line is. Is it bad to establish rapport with a customer by pretending you like bowling? For solid social ethical boundaries that we all agree apply to everyone, that's where we have laws.

Let's not confuse personal moral issues with business issues.

That being said, these Chedda clowns always make me laugh. They skate so close to the line that they nick the edge of legal, and with any luck the FTC will shut them down soon. They certainly are a posterchild for "caveat emptor" and "read the fineprint".

I like to think of them as darwinian forces. For every poor sucker they fool, they create a savvy customer who will never get burnt again.

04-01-2009, 03:11 PM	#1
Johnathan Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 702 Thanks: 214 Thanked 56 Times in 49 Posts	How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Ok, there is copywriting, and then there is outright lying. There is a difference between showing a user why something will help them, and then basically trying to totally deceive them. I'm not sure which guy (or girl) is doing this (or small group of individuals), but someone is making a killing with CPA advertisements by lying (educated guess actually probably a few millions at least within only a few months, based on what I've seen). Basically, 100% totally deceptive copy designed to trick people into making a purchase. Whether or not the product works, do you think the 'means' of getting there is good? It is a variation of the 'chedda the hustla' government grants thing (cheddadahustla dot com). And I'm assuming it's the same guy. Here are some sample websites, but I've literally come across about 30-40 of these sites, just different variations. And the main focus is on google cash, but then there are the 'goverment grant' ones, and basically anything to do with "free" money (which actually costs about $100/month until you cancel your subscription). Here are some sample sites (I am deliberately posting them with the 'dot' com because when you visit, cut & paste the link into a new browser, so the guy doesn't notice visitors from this site): coreyhasmoney dot com kevincashesout dot com kevingetsgreen dot com nickgetsgreen dot com What is deceptive about these advertisements is: a) Obviously it is a lie. Unless every single individual here has a 'boring accounting' job and they just happened to find a bunch of accountants with boring lives. (There were literally 10+ sites I found like this). b) All of them just happened to get married (or variation) thereof c) And 'supposedly' people comment on their "blog" (actually they are planted/crafted comments, and then says "Blog closed for spamming" to make people 'think' that they are legitimate comments. d) The cheques are the same, etc, etc. e) They use geotargeting (some of the sites at least). So basically the copy is designed to appeal to people's fear of the economy, to their greed (easy money/easy cash), and they lie in the process to do it (i.e., geotargeting to say 'Gosh! I'm from city XYZ JUST LIKE YOU!'), and then use fake documentation, fake comments, etc, etc. But the story is a complete fabrication designed to get people to "trust" the content, and then part with their money "trusting" that the story is true. It is not good copywriting, it is lying. What do you think of it? Do you think the ends justify the means?

04-01-2009, 03:36 PM	#2
markcarraway Active Warrior Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gulf Shores, Alabama Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Social Networking	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl? Personally I hate to see this kind of blatant snake oil tactics. I think it cheapens us all. Sadly, they are probably making a killing from this, duping people who may never buy another product again. Oh well....
	Quality PLR Content Solutions www.plrarticlepros.com

04-01-2009, 03:43 PM	#3
Johnathan Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 702 Thanks: 214 Thanked 56 Times in 49 Posts	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl? Yes, I admit -- I am usually pretty good at sniffing out 'scams' -- but the first time I saw a variation of this site -- I actually thought it was legit... Even the bit about buying the program (I was thinking, well if it's legit -- ok, so he wants to be an affiliate, makes sense...) But then started seeing more and more of these sites popping up to target different demographics (i.e., ones for women, old people, really young people, etc, etc) and started realizing it was specially crafted deceptive sales copy designed to appeal to the different demographics.

04-01-2009, 03:59 PM	#5
TerryTelford HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada. Posts: 468 Thanks: 12 Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl? Hi Johnathan Great post! The end does not justify the means. There is more to business than making money. When all is said and done, the real winners are the business owners who have been able to help people achieve their individual goals and add value to their lives. I have seen the sites you're talking about and other similar ones. If you right click on the site and view source, you'll see there's lots of scripts in there to make you think that the person in the site is actually from the town or city you live in. There is nothing wrong with that type of script when you use it to personalize a website, but like any script, put it in the wrong hands and you get an undesired result. Talk again soon. Enjoy your day! Terry
	Terry Telford :) Co-founder iClick University Live TeleClass training program for the beginning business builder. Full course outline at http://www.iClickUniversity.com

04-01-2009, 04:11 PM	#7
Learnanew HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 167 Thanks: 44 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl? Wow, that guy made over 1 million?

04-01-2009, 04:19 PM	#9
BigBenForCanton Active Warrior Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chester, Va--Via Allentown,Pa Posts: 45 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Funny how selective 'ethics' are. It's also even funnier how many people would do the same thing if they knew how.

04-01-2009, 04:29 PM	#10
jasonl70 Software Developer War Room Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Columbus, Ohio , USA. Posts: 1,959 Thanks: 350 Thanked 304 Times in 185 Posts	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Why do you guys think it is the same guy doing this? While it is certainly possible, I think it is also equally likely that other ethicly challenged affiliates are simply copying it.
	-Jason

04-02-2009, 12:46 AM	#14
MeTellYou Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Poland Posts: 836 Thanks: 66 Thanked 23 Times in 20 Posts Contact Info	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? I really think that this kinda action makes salesmen and marketers look all like snake oil... my goodness... I spent hours with a friend of mine trying to explain to him that real marketing is not forcing or cheating someone into doing something, but it's helping people out...
	How Would You Like Me To Set Up Your Entire Business For You? I build your list, create your high ticket product, do the design and promote it. All You Do Is Watch The Cash Flow In.

04-02-2009, 12:52 AM	#15
artwebster Brutal honesty's me Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Coín, Spain Posts: 1,012 Blog Entries: 4 Thanks: 27 Thanked 232 Times in 125 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Since being much more closely associated with internet marketing, I am surprised that you find this so surprising! I think I have seen more lies and false claims in a week of internet marketing advertising than I have seen in ten years of real world advertising. The biggest lie of all - "Contact our help desk if you need any assistance". I have become totally disillusioned with the whole circus because, while there are some rare and honest people out there, they are not influencing the huge influx of new internet marketers who, learning a new trade, have a simple 'monkey see - monkey do' attitude. The question 'Is this right or moral?' never comes into the equation because they suffer saturation levels of lies and immorality. They don't get the opportunity to learn any better!
	You might not like what I say - but I believe it. Build it, make money, then build some more Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies! Last edited by artwebster; 04-02-2009 at 12:53 AM. Reason: spelling

04-02-2009, 12:55 AM	#16
BlueFartzen Guest Posts: n/a	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? A lot of the folks running these copycat sites aren't making much money. I believe "Chedda" actually lost money from a combination of shaved commissions and unmonitored PPC spending. People were clicking his ads because of how absurd they were, not because they actually were interested in buying something. Not necessarily what he or any level-headed PPC marketer is going for.
BlueFartzen Guest Posts: n/a

04-02-2009, 03:41 AM	#17
archer29 Active Warrior Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 62 Thanks: 6 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Fortunately, backpagedotcom is exposing this scam by listing all the sites that are fraudulent except for the last one which belongs to melanie cuz she has the real deal on government grants. Well, maybe not but she made the first page on google. No way I clicked on her site even though I have cookies blocked.

04-02-2009, 12:37 PM	#21
Didier Faucher carbone33.com War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South West France Posts: 921 Thanks: 148 Thanked 71 Times in 46 Posts Social Networking	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? Quoted from coreyhasmoney: "My name is Corey Peters. I am originally from the Villeneuve-sur-lot, 97 area." Villeneuve-sur-Lot is in France, department ("area") number 47, not 97. 97 are overseas departments (Guyane, Martinique, Guadeloupe, La Réunion). Didier
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04-02-2009, 12:56 PM	#22
Randy Bheites Post-Modern Retro NOW! Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 195 Thanks: 8 Thanked 42 Times in 29 Posts	Re: How ethical is this guy/girl/organization? There is unethical and there is illegal. As far as ethics, it's a personal choice whether or not to stretch the "limits of creative selling". There is a grey area to all marketing. The "best"? Really? "World-famous"? What, because it's on the internet? Etcetera. We all engage in hyperbole to an extent, it's the nature of selling. It comes down to how comfortable you are personally, where your own inner moral compass tells you the line is. Is it bad to establish rapport with a customer by pretending you like bowling? For solid social ethical boundaries that we all agree apply to everyone, that's where we have laws. Let's not confuse personal moral issues with business issues. That being said, these Chedda clowns always make me laugh. They skate so close to the line that they nick the edge of legal, and with any luck the FTC will shut them down soon. They certainly are a posterchild for "caveat emptor" and "read the fineprint". I like to think of them as darwinian forces. For every poor sucker they fool, they create a savvy customer who will never get burnt again.