Clickbank Risk Management - Unfair To Affiliates?

I think this makes some sense. As a vendor I hate poor quality traffic, and I don't want affiliates sending me people who ask for refunds and generally just jerk around.

Also there must be loads of affiliates using black or grey hat techniques, though I don't know if CB is detecting this type of activity.

Let me guess, you're an affiliate? :rolleyes:

Clickbank stinks all round.

The bottom line is this - while they continue to honor intentional refunds, this whole risk management thing will see vendors leaving in droves. I'm in the process of leaving. I had a refund today for a product where the reason given was ridiculous.

Have a think about this...

1. Crap product, refund - penalized
2. Great product, useless affiliate, refund, penalized
3. Crap product, useless affiliate, refund, penalized
4. Great product, crap customer, (intentional refund), penalized
5. Great product, great affiliate, crap customer, (intentional refund), penalized

I could go on ...but you get the point.

They're penalizing everyone with this "kill them all and let God sort them out" mentality. Instead of introducing refund disputes and implementing better quality control (filters etc)

I agree with the OP. I have have in my account a warning as well that my account could potentially be shut down. I make over $1000 a year in commission and this whole year I have had to have only two sales refunded. I have since stopped promoting this particular product in case it results in another refund.

It should be Clickbank's job to remove vendors that don't perform, not remove affilliates who promote the products. It is only natural for the affiliate to promote products that are a close match to the theme of his/her site, so I think its rather cruel to penalise the affiliate.

Also, what constitutes a good, a bad, a fair, a high risk standing of an account? They are not even clear about this.

Also, since Clickbank promotes digital products (by and large), it is only natural the refund rates will be higher then physical products because let's face it, there are some garbage products on the Clickbank marketplace aside frpm lot of good ones too, and it is the job of Clickbank to ensure only quality products are listed in the first place.

No?

So why do products typically have such hugely varying refund-rates among different affiliates, then, Terry?

What about the affiliates whose refund-rates for the product are twice as much as the product's average? Don't you think that's "their fault"?

It's not easy to blame anyone else for it, is it?

It seems to me (and to ClickBank, by the way!) that although some niches have higher overall refund-rates than others, most of the variance in refund-rates for each product is directly attributable to how the product was pre-sold by the affiliate.

And I'm not a vendor at all - I'm saying that as an affiliate ... if I get a refund going through, it usually is my fault.

Here is what I have in my account:

'Your account is currently tiered as borderline.* If your account remains in this tier after January 2, 2013, it will be subject to additional vendor and affiliate fees and will also be at risk of termination.'

I think its completely unfair as I've had just two sales refunded and on track to do close to $1500 in commission for the year. I achieve a good number of sales through the year to achieve that, not just a handful.

I call B.S. on Clickbank's claim for a customer's blacklist. I know of people who've systematically ordered and refunded multiple products of mine yet they're still allowed to continue buying (and refunding) more stuff.

There are many marketing methods besides pre-selling.

Anybody use PPC or forum signatures? What about newspaper ads?

You point a link to the sales page, the person has a look and decides whether or not to buy. How is a refund of that product the fault of the seller?

That should fall directly on the vendor.

On the other hand, if you are bypassing the vendors sales page entirely, then you should be held accountable for the refund and not the vendor.

Nope. Unbelievably horrible ClickBank affiliates have helped drive away quality merchants. It's a cesspool and after a while one gets tired of complaining to ClickBank.

.

Sorry, I don't see it. While high traffic volume to a vendors sales page may affect their conversion ratio, it is the sellers page and it's claims that ultimately result in the person buying or not.

I've not influenced their decision to buy whatsoever.

Well, my guess is that when someone is using their reputation to pre-sell/promote a product then customers may buy because of that referral instead of making their own decision based upon the information contained in the sales page.

If you were to recommend a cell phone to me, I would be more likely to go and buy based upon your recomendation. On the other hand, if I clicked on a ppc link, I would look at the sales page, maybe go to cnet and use due diligence before making that purchase.

I still believe the ultimate responsibility falls on the vendors sales page and the customer to read the sales page and make their own decision.

UNLESS I have in some way influenced, pre-sold/hyped or bypassed the vendors salespage.

My refunds aren't that bad except for one product which I'm in the process of trying to locate and remove all the links for.

The mass exodus from Clickbank continues. Not only have vendors hauled @$$ away from there, but affiliates are sure to be too now.

They already take out full refund and chargeback fees from vendors, plus an additional fee if that vendor is over a certain % threshold. So why do they feel the need to nickle and dime affiliates now too?

Fairness is a mythical, nebulous, subjective concept.

I think it's unfair that I don't look like Brad, have a girlfriend like Angie, sing like Timberlake and have a bank account like Gates. Anyone here care?

If the vendor has two products in the same account, one with no refunds and another with many refunds, the account would be in the high risk tier. So we wouldn't know about the good product with no refunds. We would not know how each product is performing, just how the account as a whole is performing, since the rating is based per account.

In the long run, a good affiliate promoting a good product that offers good customer service is the way to go. I'm sure that goes without saying.

But it was asked in here how it could be an affiliate's fault if a product has a high refund rate for them (key point there: a high refund rate for THAT affiliate).

Here's an example from my own day-to-day vendor life.

Somewhere out there is some sort of Forex downline type MLM or sumthin (really no clue WHAT it is)... and for some reason, the 'owner' of that downline told his/her people that if they buy MY training course (thru Clickbank), that he would 'unlock 6 of their circles' as a bonus.

Now, I have NO CLUE what "unlocking circles" means, but I do know this caused major issues for ME.

People were rushing to buy my training and then screaming all over MY help desk and my blog demanding their "circles" be unlocked (which naturally I have no control over).... then guess what they did?

Once they did get their circles unlocked, they refunded! My product has NOTHING to do with Forex in any way, shape, or form. I have no clue why that affiliate chose my training to promote, either. But what a mess that was.

I talked to my CB account manager and did all I could to show her anything I could find online regarding this person's promotion. Problem was - the promo was done inside a private members area - meaning they (CB) can't really do anything because they can't SEE how that person was promoting.

To me, this is a perfect example of how an affiliate can totally be responsible AND accountable for a high refund rate. There was nothing I could do to save those sales and that high refund rate was isolated to that ONE affiliate.

I could name a few more situations where I (as the vendor) have absolutely no control over an affiliate refund rate (other than to use an affiliate white list - which I really don't want to do).

Thankfully, my CB vendor and affiliate accounts are all "good" or better so no real harm was done....but yes, an affiliate can totally mess things up to a point where a vendor can do nothing about it.

Jennifer
~PotPieGirl

I hope the Clickbank people see this thread and realize its unfair to put affiliates under the same level of scrutiny as vendors. If vendors do not perform, either take their products off or if their products get repeat refunds, de-list them altogether. I think the affiliates should be allowed to focus on promotion rather than worry with constant fluctuations in their account status. I am not a big earner and it still worries me, but if I earned 5 or six times current earnings I would be really worried.

Despite my criticism of this risk assessment being introduced, I have to admit Clickbank is one fo the best affiliate programs out there. They pay each and every time and on schedule. Some of the products in the marketplace are not always up to scratch, not surprising considering it has been very easy to get in until now, their account management is superb nonetheless.

Like I said before, it is the job of Clickbank to scrutinize the the products they allow on to their marketplace which will - one, force venders to produce better products, and secondly, vendors will be afraid to submit products that are not good fearing account closure.

But I suppose if a vendor gets dropped, they will always find another way of getting back on to the marketplace.

Incidentally, my account status is now orange (still borderline) but it no longer carries the warning of possible account termination. Does this mean it has been moved up?

Thats not exactly stealing, but I did have similar situation,mainly because I had not realised that CB deduct monthly fees, so when I have around a dozen accounts, 10 pf which went idele, the funds within the account were depleted over several months,I didn't realise this was going on.

Not blaming Clickbank, that was my fault for not checking terms...

I would like to add the vendor's point-of-view as well:

-it's not the fault of the vendor that there are many refunds - since lots of people "scam us" by downloading and asking for refund on purpose and "get away with it" <<< some buyers steal products by asking for refund "just like that"
-the 60 day refund period is too long: perhaps 7 days would be better?
-refund itself is quite unfair with digital products... and there are "stealing buyers" who literally "download and request refund"... I would call this system a "download-and-refund" system... very bad for ClickBank, vendors and affiliates, while the thieves are getting away with it!
-setting such a harsh system will also impact ClickBank... we'll have to deliver fast and much... otherwise they charge us/kick us? (they were a lot wiser when they allowed free flow of time, since everyone wanted to generate sales anyway - it's our own interest... but now they're "pulling the ladder"... they must be making a hack of a lot of money to be so harsh)
-we actually paid to join ClickBank... and it was supposed to be a "one time fee", but how's it going to be I don't know
-if they start kicking members, then thousands will start looking for "ClickBank alternatives", just like they were doing with "AdSense alternatives"...

...by the way, here are two alternatives: PayPal and 2CO.

It were great to sell your products directly and to set your own refund policy. Some might want to set "no refund"?

I have no faith or trust in CB whatsoever as they let anybody sell all these push button wonders & just chock full of scammy products!, correct me if I'm wrong!, however I dont think so!

@ Potpiegirl.... why not make your affiliate program closed?

I THINK (dont quote me on this) but i think you can do this within CB

lol... can't have your cake and eat it too.

you want more affiliates sending crappy traffic and have your account in high risk?

or do you want better quality affiliates, sending good customers?

oh... and ya... lol... Harvy (and glenn too)... you guys do live in a heavily flouridated part of the world. It's probably destroyed natural intelligence. lol :-)

exactly.

you replied to my comment of making the affiliate program private... you said it will cut down on affiliates marketing for you....

OF COURSE IT WILL.

thats the whole point!

it cuts out the crappy affiliates you DONT know...

gives you control

and allows you somewhat more control over your risk level in CB.

Andre/Steve do it with their TLB offer.... i dont think they're hurting in the cashloa dept either...

I have no complaints. I only had one refund. If you have a good IM product (I stress Good) , hit me up :]

I dumped Clickbank, tired of playing games.

I've never had a refund/chargeback mainly because I pre-sell with only the facts & never touch IM products. Still, Clickbanks whole system is a joke.

I could not agree more with the original poster. The affiliates are the people that make "the wheels go 'round" at Clickbank. And now you are going to penalize them?

I do think that it is a good idea to improve Clickbank products as it elevates the integrity of Clickbank as a whole. But, to penalize affiliates is the worst possible way to go about this.

I have contacted Clickbank to share my concerns (and they responded twice) and you can too. Simply login into your account and use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the page.

They are reading and responding to people's concerns, so share yours.

I think it's a joke personally although it won't affect me much anymore since the products I promote are outside of Clickbank. I guess they're just trying to protect their ability to process credit cards. Otherwise they'll end up like other networks who don't allow certain niches.

Why do I think it's unfair?

Well its not the affiliate's fault that the sale was refunded or received a charge back, Clickbank after all accepted the product and welcomed their affiliates to promote it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
EXACTLY!

I'm wondering about their calculation methods.

I have 3 accounts.

Account 1 was Below Average, and rose to Very Good. It made some affiliate sales in the meantime

Account 3 was Good, and rose to Very Good. It made some affiliate sales in the meantime

But Account 2 was Excellent, and has dropped to merely Good. It made some direct sales, none of which were refunded or charged back. In fact it hasn't had a charge back or refund for ages. So why?