Come On People This Has To Stop.

[Keith Kogane]

Originally Posted by CapForge

It isn't about how they are going to make money, it is that they are seeking to make money easily, with very little effort or by adding any real value to the process. Whether it is online, MLM, gambling secrets or whatever it is the same mentality that drives these buyers. The marketers didn't create the demand they are just catering to it.

Yeah, and pimps prey on weak willed women, too. Catering to an unhealthy, unattainable desire - especially when it's a false solution - is predatory. I know those desires are there. Mankind is constantly at odds with the animal remnants of his ancestry that control his behaviors. Many marketing tricks are based entirely on taking advantage of these "glitches" in our neural circuitry.

But it's possible to do that AND help them. Think of a a sleight of hand artist - he could cheat at cards and make money, or he could perform as a magician and make money. One of those options creates value, one destroys it. Same exact skillset. One decieves, one enlightens.

What you say is true. But just because the conditions you state exist doesn't mean it's okay to feed on them.

Originally Posted by CapForge

As BlogBrowser pointed out, there already is a well known, free and effective way to lose weight- eat less and exercise. But that's hard, and many people would prefer a way to lose weight that doesn't require them to put in much effort or give up eating foods they like, which is why the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar annual business and why Lap-Band surgeries and other procedures have become so popular- many people would rather submit to surgery with a possible risk of death than try to succeed with diet and exercise.

Sure - but you make a distinction. Lap-Band surgeries actually WORK. It's not a pill of ash and caffeine that won't do jack. That actually is an example of what I meant, because it's a solution that actually provides value. It's not the *best* example what with the risk of death, but it parallels what I meant in the first place.

It's not hard to leave people better than you found them.

And the whole shepherd thing is especially great to use as a model in the IM field, because as someone said with their free coaching deal, you can actually teach people to make more money, which you can then invite them to spend with you in order to make more money, which they can... etc. It's just more direct than a lot of other industries.

Originally Posted by mmurtha

Hey Tim,

Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately.

You're right. And the reason behind this is simply the fact that I'm tired of what I'm seeing.

We can talk about how there are good people and so forth but the problem I'm ranting about is real and deep running.

Bev's comments below are right on. I know because I've been told "from the horse's mouth" some of these long-time big hitters are seeing massive drops in their sales.

How do they respond? By smiling and peddling more bull****.

Most of the people in this industry are isolated in their own little bubbles. My frustration comes from what I have seen and heard directly from some of the so-called industry leaders; many of these "gurus" are people I can pick up the phone and call or send a personal email to.

I'm just fed up with it and wanted to blow off some steam. Ultimately I'll just end up phasing out of this sector and not looking back.

I actually have a book nearly finished that details some of the more absurd points. Whether or not a publisher that participates in this market will want to print it is another story.

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

One of the other problems is that anyone coming into this now don't know they are being sold hype and BS.

II am guessing here, but I wonder if some of those marketers we know well and have trusted in the past are finding it hard to sell so they are trying anything to make a quick buck.

Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley

So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.

Greg you always have quality to add to a thread. I appreciate your post and of course I know I won't change anything.

I just had something that really wanted to be said and I wondered if it would resonate with any others. It is what it is and the bottom line is truly that I'm just not a fit for what our society currently accepts as marketing.

It's really time I figure out how to accept that permanently and just stick with what I'm really wired to do.

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

You're right. And the reason behind this is simply the fact that I'm tired of what I'm seeing.

We can talk about how there are good people and so forth but the problem I'm ranting about is real and deep running.

Bev's comments below are right on. I know because I've been told "from the horse's mouth" some of these long-time big hitters are seeing massive drops in their sales.

How do they respond? By smiling and peddling more bull****.

Most of the people in this industry are isolated in their own little bubbles. My frustration comes from what I have seen and heard directly from some of the so-called industry leaders; many of these "gurus" are people I can pick up the phone and call or send a personal email to.

I'm just fed up with it and wanted to blow off some steam. Ultimately I'll just end up phasing out of this sector and not looking back.

I actually have a book nearly finished that details some of the more absurd points. Whether or not a publisher that participates in this market will want to print it is another story.

Tim,

Be that as it may, you still cannot change them as I pointed out earlier. You can olny change yourself, how you handle it, and how you run your business in the end.

I know what problems some of the other marketers are having just as well as you do, but maybe they will wise up soon. If they don't that's their problem. You'll be one of the ones that make out better in the end, and so will your subscribers and customers.

[BizBoost]

Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley

Hey Eric,

I like the way you put that.....especially the part about being the "advisor to the pharoah"......

Just one thing I'd add - Iwas talking to a friend of mine yesterday and saying that "we should stop complaining about the state of {insert whatever} and actually start to do something about it" for instance "why complain about the government when you didn't even go and vote yourself"

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your kind reply.

We can actually build on your statement there, if you don't mind me trying. You see the "should" statement, right? Similarly, a friend once quoted a source as saying, "If we can we should, and if we should, we MUST..!".

But what it takes to get there is an interesting matter in itself because of the law of inertia. And "complaining" is a form of buffering, like, for example, when one takes an ibuprofen to make the pain disappear. Complaining buffers a sense of powerlessness and dulls the pain of just being fully present to it.

By not complaining (not even softly to one's self) but, instead, suffering consciously, we recover vital energy from our negative emotions which then goes towards breaking the inertia. Another way of putting this is that one needn't actually "DO" something... but by NOT DOING "the complaining", there develops sufficient energy for people to spend on what is, intrinsically, known to be the right action.

I hope that's understandable.

Best wishes, Greg, thanks again,
Eric

Originally Posted by BizBoost

And "complaining" is a form of buffering, like, for example, when one takes an ibuprofen to make the pain disappear. Complaining buffers a sense of powerlessness and dulls the pain of just being fully present to it.

There is a huge difference in what you define as complaining and what I'm doing. If it makes you feel profound to look on in that manner then have at it but the FACT is any real transformation that goes beyond self begins with candor and open discussion.

Open discussion is what began a little event you may recall some 200 years ago that historians refer to as the American Revolution. And while most people will respond to my statements (here and elsewhere) with something to the tune of "well that's just what marketing is all about" at least a couple of people will see the value, and hence the sentiment gains momentum in the greater consciousness.

And that my friend is one example of how anyone can impact the whole in a positive manner.

Onward and upward.

[alexander13]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.

Be careful with absolutes like "nobody"

because there are people who care. Admittedly there are lots of bs'ers out there. The 80/20 rule definitely applies so find that 20% who do care and listen to them.

[mikemcmillan]

I agree there is a lot of fluff and foam in emails from the gurus. It's all the same stuff. But there is an opportunity there. People get so tired of getting that stuff that if you can offer some genuine value in your emails people will respond. I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there sending out quality emails--it would make my job all that much harder.

One other thing about the bullsh*t products being sold for high prices. One thing to remember is that the gurus have huge advantages over a newbie, even a newbie with a far superior product. The gurus have huge lists, they have contacts with the big JV partners, and they understand the process of a successful product launch. The big guys can make a ton of money with a mediocre product because of this.

I guess there is a certain amount of "paying your dues" to get into the big leagues. It doesn't happen overnight. Great marketing will beat out great products (with less than great marketing) every time.

The other thing is that everyone out there wants to buy a program that will make them a fortune without doing any work. Becoming successful online is a process built upon accretion.

People have to realize (and they don't) that when you buy a product you learn some good stuff hopefully, but that a real education comes from learning a little from this guy, learning a little from that guy, and learning a whole lot on your own. I have bought tons of products and I have learned something from every one of them, but I haven't learned everything from any one of them. There isn't, and there never will be a "learn it all right here" product.

[Jared Alberghini]

Tim,

I literally shoveled bull ****, cow ****, horse **** and chicken **** the better part of the day today... and I didn't mind one bit... it's going right on my gardens

Seriously Tim, if this stuff is bothering you this much, go outside, find some other work to balance you out a bit. Find a farm to work at, or a martial arts dojo to get some exercise (I recommend Arnis/Escrima).

If I didn't have some physical/manual labor/exercise, I would go nuts working only online... I completely understand your frustrations, but there is not much you can do about those who frustrate you.

"The way you change the world is through one random act of kindness at a time." (from Even Almighty I believe...)

.jrd

P.S. My biggest frustration today was when I smacked my thumb HARD with my hammer... yea, that thumbnail will definitely fall off in a few days, I can tell by the black/purple color and how much it hurts... but I have nobody to blame but myself for that one.

[bingbong]

It will continue to happen as long as money can be made. It's pretty sad. Sometimes pretty hard to tell quality from repackaged product.

[Robert Puddy]

Tims premiss is sell them what they need Not what they want...

Recipe for failure, always has been always will be

Find a hungry market
create a product they want

Its consumer driven...

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston
What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."


Tim this is what the IM niche is... I dont get what the beef is here

The IM niche is a niche that sells how to make money online products to people who want to make money online

And pretty much everything put out will work if used as intended. Its much like the argument traffic exchanges are crap and dont work, but I can point you in the direction of thousands of people that make them work everyday

!00's of people that make or have made 6 and 7 figures using them.

Most of the people bitching are those that dont follow the instructions or try shortcuts for a week then comdemn it.

Your pissing into the wind dude... your just going to get wet shoes

[richard515680]

I am glad others think the same way I do. Perhaps one way to disuade this rehash of old info (which I have read is encouraged by some gurus) is to use the refund guarantee offered on the sales pages.

[Robert Puddy]

Originally Posted by richard515680

I am glad others think the same way I do. Perhaps one way to disuade this rehash of old info (which I have read is encouraged by some gurus) is to use the refund guarantee offered on the sales pages.

Whats the difference between rehashed.... And time tested and proven?

[maxhomebits]

There is so much crap out there that I just switch off now, and for about 90% of emails that I get from IMs get's trashed. You will never be able to change the landscape for the vast majority of surfers that are looking for the answer to all their woes. My own impression is that it's only 1 or 2 % of IMs that are making vast amounts of cash the rest are just pure crap. Hard work and durability are the answers to success, and the sooner that people realise this the quicker the Industry get's cleaned up.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

Whats the difference between rehashed.... And time tested and proven?

Your copywriter...

LOL

[Chase Beach]

Dear Tim Whiston,

I have one small tiny point to add. for what it is worth.

As you said, "We are possibly in the Second Greatest Depression", and to market the junk and reprocess junk to buyers is not wise marketing. I would like to ask, How you came to believe we are in this depression.

I say that a great marketer Sold you on this.....

Yes, we are having more of a global impact with global selling, but I hope you can see through the smiles, waves, great speeches and negative news, soon and see we are not in such bad shape.

I applaud your point of junk peddling. Prior to the web, junk peddlers could not reach large markets with such little cost. Today, for $20, they can reach millions to peddle their re puked junk.

"The Peddler, is a magician of words, and everyone learns the tricks, a Marketer is an artist of painting a dream and takes years to master."

Chase

[BrianMcLeod]

This thread has been an interesting read...

I loved Keith's brilliant analogy of the predatory wolf that eventually eats his own ecosystem. That was just great, really!

I also really dig Eric's thoughtful and deep reframe of the issues at work -- and I fully agree with him that much of the OP's angst is somewhat unfairly misplaced on the shoulders of marketers without proper consideration of the very demands made by those to whom they market.

Paul Myers has a great saying that's particularly applicable:

Sell 'em what they WANT.
Give 'em what they BOUGHT.
Sneak in what they NEED.

It's always easier to point to the failure of the masses as prima facie proof that something sucks than it is to accept the successes of the few who in fact prove the exact opposite.

Surely we can all agree that some very powerful ideas DO cut through all the noise and have had a truly transformative effect on "real" people's lives (even if it's not your bag of Doritos).

There's plenty of GREAT information available, and people are and will always be buying it. But most of them don't come to forums or spend time blogging about it. They just enjoy the experience they bought and move forward.

Those are the people you see filling seats at live events but never hear from online. The custom transom manufacturer who turns over 4 million a year in his business... @ 32% profit.

That guy is happy as a pig in the mud but he'd sure like to grow sales to 6M and keep the same margins or maybe squeeze out a few more points where he can. For him, a trip to San Diego or an SEO product that costs as much as your mortgage payment is a genuine and significant opportunity, just like the sales letter said it was...

There's real, lasting, meaningful success happening for people out there every day using the very same stuff that pisses other people off.

The END USERS are the drivers of that success -- not the products they buy, or the gurus they follow, or the tactics and strategies that they implement. They are self-responsible, action takers that are AWARE and have a finely tuned sense of acuity. They observe and respond.

Of course, you noticed that I didn't say "watch and react"...

Contrast that to the mindset of the average help desk trouble ticket or refund request.

The pattern is not unpredictable.

Sometimes, it bears repeating that the little old world of Internet marketing does go far and well outside the realm of $97 info-products and well beyond the $1997 guru launch products.. and even beyond the $10k coaching and events. I made my bones selling very niche specific services that run from $695 - $12k with an AVERAGE sale of $6k+.

High level actionable information on that level is very, very different from actionable material as one guy selling stuff via Paypal -- even for ME, having done it both ways.

Leverage is the difference. It's what newbies should always be looking for and it's what established, growing businesses already have.

If you buy something, even a stupidly simple $17 ebook, that gives you new leverage, then it's a smart buy.

If you buy something, even an ingeniously conceived, planned and executed multimillion dollar launch product, that does NOT give you that leverage, then it's a waste of attention and money.

But most of all... if you BUY something, USE IT. Do something with it.

This got long fast... I'm out.

Best,

Brian

[lnardi01]

Hey, if you want to get rich online, sell ebooks about selling ebooks to people who want to get rich selling ebooks to people selling ebooks.

And you'd better start soon.

That's one of the most amusing posts I have seen recently. Additionally, IM is a numbers game, more is better.

Some people are scammers and take the money and run, but some of us do offer good programs and products to people looking to make money. Haven't you seen that statistical video that was circulating around and showed up on Dan Kennedy's blog a couple months ago? There are billions, yes billions of people joining the online community daily. There is alot of money out there. There will always be snake oil salesmen, but you don't have to be part of that. Stand tall, give content worthy of respect and you should be able to reap nicely from what you sow.

If all the lemmings jump, I want to be left standing in the back, cause I ain't going.