Come On People This Has To Stop.

We're quite possibly entering the most severe global economic downturn in 75 years. This isn't a guess based on the latest headlines, it's extrapolation from sound demographics that anyone can find and analyze on world markets over the past century or so.

This means potentially massive opportunities across various sectors for those willing to look at things from this perspective. And it also means even more people will be coming online in search of genuine opportunities to increase prosperity.

What will they find when they arrive? Probably more bull**** and nonsense.

I saw the very same copy and paste affiliate promotions come in today from two people I'm friends with and I just had this moment of clarity. The "Internet marketing" sector just gets more absurd every month doesn't it?

Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.

How many major product launches with blockbuster movie titles and little true substance have we seen in the past six months? How many of the average users of these systems have made even the first dollar in profit?

This is just insane and it keeps on going. I realize most opportunity seekers are jokers looking for a handout but even a small % of sincere seekers means there are thousands and thousands of people who really do want solid info.

But they'll probably get sideswiped by this infatuation list owners have with the latest and greatest crap to get rolled out.

What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."

???????

This is extremely bizarre and yet the people involved carry on as if nothing absurd is being perpetuated day in and day out. It is extremely likely the IM bubble will burst even further than it has already in recent years and this whole silly party of "we'll all just sell B2B stuff to each other and then nobody has to bother with real consumer products" will be over.

Maybe the impending influx of new people as a result of the downturn will help initiate change. Many of these people will be unlike opp seekers in the past; folks who lost their job in the crunch really need legitimate business options and it'll be interesting to see their response to the mayhem that currently passes as valid home business information.

Does this rant make sense to anyone else in here? Am I alone in my disdain for the current state of the mainstream "Internet Marketing Niche"?

[bwh1]

Heck I know where youa re coming from

I'm sick and tired of the "latest best thing", knowing that's a old PLR report or a overhyped crap.

MODERATORS, WARRIOR OWNERS

get a "Warrior Approved" label and give it out to IM products prior reviewed here by members.

I bet that scammers and hyped BS will be less.

G.

P>S> There MUST be a way the IM niche receives a quality label, or people will soon quote all as a scam.

[Trader54]

As long as there are buyers there will be launchers. Eventually things will play out.

[Vanquish]

IM market is so saturated i don't know how you guys find high volume low competition keywords for it.

[NicheDiary.com]

But the IM scene has been getting better. These days, at least we know 90% of all ebooks are trash.

[jbode]

Yes, there is an overwhelming amount of products coming out and most people don't know how to choose the right products to buy.

the information overload is a major cause of poor success rate

it's estimated that only 3% of people take some kind of action on what they learn, this is a huge reason why so few people succeed.

I believe many people do come up with good products, but the poor products and the abundance of information makes those good products appear less valuable.

The true value can be determined when you take action!

Unfortunately, most people never get that far

Thanks for the feedback. I sort of got off track and may not have nailed my primary point, which is...

We're entering possibly a second great depression and still it seems most IMers are selling their lists a bunch of fluff and bull****. It just saddens me.

People need REAL SUPPORT and genuine info right now not more of this childish crap.

[Keith Kogane]

Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

Originally Posted by DcSimmons

There are some good legitimate programs though

Of course there are. I'm just talking (in vain I know) about the more nonsensical elements of the whole IM sector - the way these B2B resources are presented, the fact that it's more about selling dreams than helping legitimate businesses succeed, and the somewhat childish overtone of the entire marketplace.

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.

As someone who probably needs a 12 step program to help with my philosophy addictions I can actually surmise multiple implications from your post. Whether or not I get your intended message is of course unclear but it's one of the better responses I've seen in some time either way.

[Clyde Dennis]

Ooh, that's nice Keith. I think I get it.

[Matt Remuzzi]

What people need and what the want and will buy aren't necessarily the same thing. Very few people want to hear "hard work" and "an online business is just like an offline business or anything else that is successful- it requires lots of quality input to get any quality output."

This is exactly why programs promising easy, fast, effortless income sell well even though we know the vast majority are misrepresented or outright BS.

I understand what you are getting at, but the problem isn't the supply side- successful marketers will sell whatever people want to buy (because they understand that is the way to sales success).

The problem is the demand side- people want fast, easy and effortless solutions to their problems and will ignore all kinds of good advice and common sense to get them, even if they turn out to be bogus in the end- hope springs eternal.

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

We're entering possibly a second great depression and still it seems most IMers are selling their lists a bunch of fluff and bull****. It just saddens me.

People need REAL SUPPORT and genuine info right now not more of this childish crap.

I don't see why this is more relevant now than before. Is there some reason that people didn't need "REAL SUPPORT and genuine info" before?

I appreciate your sentiment, really ... but "fluff and bull****" was as unsavory years ago as it is today.

Originally Posted by CapForge

The problem is the demand side- people want fast, easy and effortless solutions to their problems and will ignore all kinds of good advice and common sense to get them, even if they turn out to be bogus in the end- hope springs eternal.

I definitely won't disagree with that. The overwhelming majority of consumers in any home business market are of extreme low quality in terms of wanting to work or even think in a sustained manner.

Originally Posted by sevenish

I don't see why this is more relevant now than before. Is there some reason that people didn't need "REAL SUPPORT and genuine info" before?

I appreciate your sentiment, really ... but "fluff and bull****" was as unsavory years ago as it is today.

That's fine but things are getting more serious. As people lose their jobs and come online the prospect pool will no longer be people with fantasies to explore.

The people who will be getting screwed by this crap in the near future are folks who are now living from their savings accounts and need something of substance.

The whole point is moot of course. It is what it is.

I've walked away many times, only to come back. I often think it's money that compels me but honestly no amount of profit is worth the way the IM market often makes me feel.

The fact is most likely I just want to help the few quality prospects I can find. I want to have an impact on those who are sincere in their desire to succeed online.

But I expect I'll be phasing the IM part of my efforts out again soon. Aynone wanna buy a blog and list of 4,500 IMers?

[mmurtha]

Hey Tim,

Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately. I don't say that lightly or as a put down. It just seems that every time I come in here you have a new "rant" thread up and running. But the thing is, they are all basically stating the same thing.

The truth is, SOME IMers have been this way at least for the past 8-9 yrs that I know of - thru rain, sleat, snow or shine, but not all or even the majority of them. Or maybe it's the fact that I seem to be on the right lists, so don't see these types of newsletters.

The fact is, if I keep getting them, I unsubscribe quickly, then go about doing what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to treat people right and to give them the very best I have to give.

To me, it's not about what everyone else is doing at the moment. It's about what I am doing at the moment that enhances my business, and helps other people to learn and grow that matter the most.

If you really want to make IM better where other people get real value, begin with you, and let the rest of them fall to the waste side. You have no control over what they do, but you do have control over what you do. Ranting isn't going to help much in the end. You can get more bang by being the example.


Mary

[Trader54]

Originally Posted by mmurtha

Hey Tim,

Uhumm ... I don't know what happened to you in the last few months, but you didn't seem to rant as much as you have been doing here lately. I don't say that lightly or as a put down. It just seems that every time I come in here you have a new "rant" thread up and running. But the thing is, they are all basically stating the same thing.

The truth is, SOME IMers have been this way at least for the past 8-9 yrs that I know of - thru rain, sleat, snow or shine, but not all or even the majority of them. Or maybe it's the fact that I seem to be on the right lists, so don't see these types of newsletters.

The fact is, if I keep getting them, I unsubscribe quickly, then go about doing what I believe to be the right thing, and that is to treat people right and to give them the very best I have to give.

To me, it's not about what everyone else is doing at the moment. It's about what I am doing at the moment that enhances my business, and helps other people to learn and grow that matter the most.

If you really want to make IM better where other people get real value, begin with you, and let the rest of them fall to the waste side. You have no control over what they do, but you do have control over what you do. Ranting isn't going to help much in the end. You can get more bang by being the example.


Mary

Very good quality post.

If the case is so offer "Quality" and dominate the market. That tactic works in every business. The more you feel crap is being sold the bigger the opportunity for you.

[sevenish]

Tim,

Again, I really do appreciate your sentiment and couldn't agree more. It's just that I've seen most of these biz opp things as no more than predatory horse**** aimed at the most vulnerable for years. If I can see it, I don't see how anyone can be shocked ... SHOCKED.

I know there is legitimate material and programs out there, and I know you're one of the legitimate vendors. But as you've pointed out, there exist exponentially more snake oil sales persons. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. All you can do is keep posting/ranting and keep on being one of the good guys.

See my sig for further details.

Best wishes to you.

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by Trader54

Very good quality post.

If the case is so offer "Quality" and dominate the market. That tactic works in every business. The more you feel crap is being sold the bigger the opportunity for you.

Hi Trader,

That is so true, and it works well.

If we do the very best we can individually while others are pushing the junk, 9 out of 10 cases we'll be the ones people run to for the value in the end.

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by mmurtha

If we do the very best we can individually while others are pushing the junk, 9 out of 10 cases we'll be the ones people run to for the value in the end.

I would like to believe this is true, but I'm not so sure. I guess that's why I appreciate this thread.

[MeTellYou]

it is very interesting, howsome people just seem not to understand the concept of marketing. Marketing is not a numbers game.

As you said, you have to provide value, you have to be natural, your clients absolutely have to receive something that they can actually put into action ( or should I say readers...) you cannot just be going around, forcing people into buying stuff. This will not work.

Sebastian

[Johnathan]

Hi Tim,

It's sad to hear you have a fairly pessimistic view of many internet marketers.

From what I've seen -- there are some scammers and or just lazy people (i.e., selling horse manure as equistite chocolate and selling it) -- and I'll totally agree -- those guys suck.

But there are a lot of 'good' people. I have been reviewing a few courses/ideas/etc presented by people (here, and related to this forum), and some of them have excellent ideas.

Not everyone is selling 'crap', but to the people that are -- I agree, they should add value to their products. Money isn't everything. And if all you are doing is spinning articles to rank highly in search engines to hope for some adsense crumbs -- while not necessarily a 'bad' way to get started (if you have no money at all) -- as a sustainable business model you may have some difficulty.

Some of the industries that are having difficulty (i.e., automakers) are having that difficulty because they were either not providing 'real' value, or they were simply being too greedy, or a combination of both. (In the case of many automakers, I'd say probably both -- overpriced cars to people who couldn't afford them, designed to break down within 5 years so they could buy a new one. Cars in the 50's and 60's can still run now if you took care of them).

Anyways, bottomline, make sure you add some real value to your products/services, and not only will you be getting 'money', but you will have a sense of satisfication of having accomplished something good.

[Bev Clement]

One of the other problems is that anyone coming into this now don't know they are being sold hype and BS.

I'm fed up with marketers (well known ones) who say this is brand new, never seen before, when it has been sold as is for the past few years. They don't even attempt to make changes to it.

Now a new marketer is going to buy, and believe that it is new, and well what happens next, we all know.

I saw someone this week selling a package which originally came from the "Well Loved" Cody Moya. They were saying how wonderful it was and how it would make a person thousands. Most of that stuff was so old it wasn't funny. They listed them all which is why I know.

The emails that some are sending are also crazy. They have in the subject line, click here to download your purchase, I bought this for you, and when you click they have bought it, yes, but are selling it to you with rights.

I am guessing here, but I wonder if some of those marketers we know well and have trusted in the past are finding it hard to sell so they are trying anything to make a quick buck.

[reapr]

Originally Posted by Vanquish

IM market is so saturated i don't know how you guys find high volume low competition keywords for it.

As long as there are new products being created, new supplements etc ... it will never get oversaturated. It amazes me how many of the paid keyword tools can miss gems. I pays to learn how to use the freebies along with the paid tools.

There is always products to sell and promote and where the money rolls in is being ahead of the product or fad ... in other words you did your research and was one of the first in before the the other sheeple followed suit.

[JustVisiting]

Originally Posted by MeTellYou

it is very interesting, howsome people just seem not to understand the concept of marketing. Marketing is not a numbers game.

Hi Sebastian

Marketing IS a numbers game.

Originally Posted by MeTellYou

you cannot just be going around, forcing people into buying stuff. This will not work.

How do you 'force' people into buying?
Subliminal advertising, hypnosis?

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by sevenish

I would like to believe this is true, but I'm not so sure. I guess that's why I appreciate this thread.

Believe what you will Sevenish, Lol you'll learn one of these days.

Btw, encouraging people to "rant away" isn't the best thing whether you appreciate the thread or not.

I appreciate Tim's enthusiasm and dedication for the cause, but I know that ranting doesn't help the cause, it only clogs up the discussion with info people already know about. Matter of fact, it is falling on deaf ears (blinded eyes in this case).

I've also cometo know that being the example, and paying attention to what you do, while offering value is the higher road to take that will bring in the best cutomers, and more money in the end. It is also more credible.

[HeySal]

There will always be shammers and scammers.....and they will always sell to someone because there will also always be greedy, lazy people who want so badly to believe that they can make fortunes with little or no work.

There will always be idiots who will sell warmed over hash by claiming it's new and different polluting the pool for those who actually do sell what is new and different.

And it was always that way and always will be. The only thing you can do about the lack of common sense, integrity, and moral fiber of marketers is to strive to be better than they are. Make a name selling quality, and make a reputation giving quality service and don't worry about the scumbags. They eventually will take care of themselves in one fashion or the other.

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by mmurtha

Believe what you will Sevenish, Lol you'll learn one of these days.

Btw, encouraging people to "rant away" isn't the best thing whether you appreciate the thread or not.

I appreciate Tim's enthusiasm and dedication for the cause, but I know that ranting doesn't help the cause, it only clogs up the discussion with info people already know about. Matter of fact, it is falling on deaf ears (blinded eyes in this case).

I've also cometo know that being the example, and paying attention to what you do, while offering value is the higher road to take that will bring in the best cutomers, and more money in the end. It is also more credible.

Point taken.
"Be the change you want to see in the world". (Gandhi)

[Keith Kogane]

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

This is ABSOLUTELY correct. The only reason as of why we see hundreds of ****ty products being released every month is because there are indeed people buying them who DO NOT want to hear the truth, meaning that making money online is ****loads of work, determination and consistency. In stead, they want to hear about the super-duper latest secret to make $500 a day on autopilot using some retarded wordpress script and whatnot.

I don't know if that's true. Do you think people would even think that making money online was possible if they hadn't been exposed to marketers making promises of easy money?

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

Why do you think the diet business is a multi-million business? because there are tons of idiots who seek the miracle diet to lose 20 pounds eating pineapple or some **** like that. Everyone knows that the only thing you need to do in order to lose weight is to A) eat properly and B) do exercise. Yet they dont want to sweat nor they want to give up on their donoughts. So, basically, what we have is nothing but a bunch of lazy naive people looking for fast results without willing to put in the effort.

Laziness is a vice, sure. But you also point out that people can be naive, and I don't think that makes it okay to take advantage of them. The right way to approach what you're saying is to actually CREATE the way that people can lose weight easily and quickly, and sell that. It doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of false promises.

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

The illness is not on the marketers' side - it's on the demand. Marketers are simply capitalizing on it, which is rather logical.

No, I think what you're describing is "preying" rather than capitalizing. If your business model requires you to take advantage of a weakness in someone (ignorance, panic) and leaves them no better than you found them, you're a predator.

NOTE: Not "you" specifically, BB - just speaking in general here.

The way I look at it is that my role as a "marketer" in the online context is to be a shepherd of sorts. I want to gain a flock of loyal repeat customers, I want to treat them well so they will keep coming back and giving me wool. The sheep are happy, I'm happy, it's win win.

Some marketers instead are more like wolves. They'll just eat the sheep, or skin it instead of just shearing it. You might get a good meal, but there's no ecology - no conservation. The life of a predator is hard, because you always need to keep looking for the next meal.

The more successful a predator is, the less time he will be able to get by. It's a non-sustainable system. Eventually, he'll wipe out his own food supply, or they will figure out how to avoid him, and his game is up. Find dumber sheep, or find a new "trick".

Meanwhile, the sheep actually FLOCK to the shepherd, because he takes care of them. And sheep follow other happy sheep. The herd grows.

It's not hard to do this - just make sure you're always lopsided, offering more value than you ask in payment. Always try to give more than you get, and you'll be AMAZED at how much you can get back, and how easily it will come.

Plus, you'll sleep like a baby.

[Anna Johnson]

Funnily enough, I have just posted a rant of my own. I think a lot of the problem has to do with why people get into Internet marketing in the first place. The primary reason seems to be to 'make money' which makes people vulnerable to get rich offers:

What I Hate About The Internet Marketing Niche | Kikabink News

[Fernando Veloso]

Guess i am on tghe other side of the river, smiling.

Just started a free coaching, one month, daily videos + free reports on how to really make some money using blog networks. A FREE COACHING.

75% of users are 35 years plus.

I WILL be selling them advanced methods next 3 months BUT i am teaching them to make a few dollars a day with free tools.

I feel good about it dam it, wish somebody coached me on IM with free tools. But yeah, lots of oportunities right now.

[tessmac9708]

There is a solution!

Kill the copywriters. Make it illegal to sell benefits!

"Buy my product. It comes in a really nice looking colourful box, made out of cardboard. Its quite shinny, and some of your friends will remark on how yellow it looks. To get the maximum benefit, you will also need to buy my brown product, but I'll be mailing you about this later, when you have some more money to spend"

Please PM me if you'd like one!

[tessmac9708]

Wow 3 sold already. Only 7 left..be quick!

[imburne]

You know whats annoying me is I need 15 posts to PM anyone just because I am interested in advertising. I guess its a typical vbulletin thing... Also at the same time there is a offer on another board and I need 30 posts to even say that I bought the guys program.. So I cant PM him or post in that thread. Spam filters.. Ok..


Besides that I LOVE this place!!!!!

[NicheDiary.com]

Every single lucrative industry has this problem.

The medical industry is full of fraud, doctors use material marketed to them by Billion dollar pharmaceutical companies who only care about $$ and not getting rid of a disease .

Copywriters like to pretend their product or service will solve 80% of the buyers money problems.
After getting burned enough times, people realize life isn't a bed of roses, some skill, money, time and discipline is required.

So are we a part of the solution or problem ?

[matthewjmoody]

As somebody who's been taken in by all the hype before and bought lots of products, I can understand where you are coming from.

I think the main problem is many of the products are actually not well constructed so unless you have a phd in science, then sometimes its difficult to actually "implement".

Right now, I am trying to focus, unsubscribe from as many newsletters as possible and just do a small number of things - rather than trying to win everybody at everything.

Matthew

[TheCren]

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

No, I think what you're describing is "preying" rather than capitalizing. If your business model requires you to take advantage of a weakness in someone (ignorance, panic) and leaves them no better than you found them, you're a predator.

Well put. I'd like to add that being a predator is the easy way out. New IMers look for an easy way in and "B.S.-marketers" provide a false door right on the same path the prospect is already taking instead of showing him/her the right path.

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

The way I look at it is that my role as a "marketer" in the online context is to be a shepherd of sorts. I want to gain a flock of loyal repeat customers, I want to treat them well so they will keep coming back and giving me wool. The sheep are happy, I'm happy, it's win win.

Some marketers instead are more like wolves. They'll just eat the sheep, or skin it instead of just shearing it. You might get a good meal, but there's no ecology - no conservation. The life of a predator is hard, because you always need to keep looking for the next meal.

Good analogy, even allows me to extend another point... the sheep never asked you to sheer them. They'd much rather wander in the fields unwary of the wolves. Humans scare them, even though we mean no harm. The wolves stalk them perfectly unnoticed and pounce when the time is right.

Good marketers just want to protect the newbies and tell them to be cautious, but most new comers want fast cash ASAP. Their blood isn't on our hands.

At least in real life they have 60+ days to ask for a refund. That's more than actual wolves give.

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

The more successful a predator is, the less time he will be able to get by. It's a non-sustainable system. Eventually, he'll wipe out his own food supply, or they will figure out how to avoid him, and his game is up. Find dumber sheep, or find a new "trick".

It seems all the IM wolves have learned to let the flock breed enough so that food supply isn't in danger. There's a reason the wolves aren't extinct yet... and neither are the sheep.

[danmart]

The sad thing is the "Get Rich NOW" ploy is what works. People don't want to hear that IM takes time and work they want instant answers to their problems. Once they do get one of these programs they learn (often times the hard way) the truth. At that point they seek out the quality offers.

[BigBenForCanton]

It's one big ball of oil, really it is. Everybody is selling the same stuff to new and unsuspecting people, who in turn, sell it to new an unsuspecting people.

Check out the thread I posted in the 'JV Forum' about anybody broadening their horizons. Not one response. Hysterical. If that's not proof-positive of the state of IM marketing, then what is? What a joke.

Maybe some of our pop-philosophers can weigh in with some deep thoughts. Jack Handy called he wants his thoughts back.

[Greg Cooksley]

Hey Tim,

You and several others have clearly defined the status quo....so I won't add to that....

What I want to say is this......there is little to nothing you or I can do about it. It's the nature of the game....

However, there is so much that you and I can do about how we market to end-users....how we treat our clients, how we nuture and grow them, how we add value to them. And by so doing, how we become a TRUSTED ADVISOR....what a privileged position to firstly obtain and then to hold onto....

So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.

Regards

Greg

PS - you only have to be a couple of % better than the average to be phenomenal.

[IGotTheNews]

I liked it when you say "Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur." This statement I would have to say is the truth with a good deal of companies in marketing. They don't want to tell you right off the bat that you will have to swindle and lie to people to get a buck. There have been companies in which I have been in that told me that if I would sign up for the book of the month and the CD's I would benefit more. I did so, and found that the book was dumb and offered no advice and the CD's were people who have success in the business and are bragging of their nice things. It seems that there are many companies who just need bodies to fill and don't care for them to know the truth of the whole business. It is kind of sickening.

[Peter Bestel]

I hung my washing outside yesterday and it dried beautifully. Last night I put a few more loads in the washer ready to put out this morning and what would you know - it's raining. Bl**dy rain. It always rains when I do washing. Every single time...

Oh, sorry, I thought this was the thread that we complained about things that we've no control over.

I see Greg had the right idea.

Originally Posted by Greg Cooksley

So let me encourage you....avoid what you cannot change and do something about what is in your control......your clients will love you for it.

Peter

PS I put my washing in the drier - it's not only dry but it's crease-free and warm. Every cloud...

PPS Come on people, this has to stop ( I read that somewhere, don't recall where) ;-)

[Steven Wagenheim]

Tim...I agree.

This has also been going on since I first stepped into this business over 6
years ago.

I can't begin to tell you all the crap that was being peddled back then. I
won't mention any names because I don't want to embarrass anybody, but
trust me...I found very little that was worth beans.

And the prices????

$97 for something you couldn't sell in a legitimate book store for more than
$14.95...if that.

Nothing is new. This has probably been going on long before I ever got into
this business and my guess is, it will go on long after I am dead and gone.

Human nature makes it so that there will always be people out there who...

1. Are looking to make a quick buck selling crap.
2. People who will buy crap because they too are looking for a quick buck.

It's a vicious cycle that feeds itself.

As long as there is greed on both ends of it (merchant and consumer)
nothing is going to change.

Welcome to the real world since the days of the 3 Card Monty.

[Neil Morgan]

Is there a difference between "make money the easy way" marketing and the car manufacturer who convinces you that you'll be more attractive to the opposite sex if you buy their car?

Marketing is marketing is marketing - emotions first, logic second.

Cheers,

Neil

[BrainDance]

Well said Tim You said everything I believe and have said, yet much less eloquently.
Does anyone actually want to help someone succeed at any level or simply just take advantage of the desperation people are feeling.

I hate those big launches, the MASSIVE prices for reworked content, the 'supergurus' baiting people on. I love the little guy who has an actual product they believe in , whether it a niche or a service or a product. helping those people is what internet marketing should be about.

I've only been doing eMarketing design specific work for about a year, so I'm not the titan of IM and don't want to be BUT I believe,
the only people that make money on those ger rich quick launches and products are the ones selling them to the people buying them.

5 yrs ago or so I bought my first ebook about how to make money on ebay. It worked! Gave great tips on different aspects of the ebay site, the best days to post and close auctions and so on. Now that to me is a great product.

I don't have a disdain for the IM Niche, I know there are honestly sincere people just doing the best they can with what they have to offer. I have a disdain for megamarketers and the hype with the ridiculous prices and empty promises.

[BizBoost]

Take a Moment to Read the Following

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

We're quite possibly entering the most severe global economic downturn in 75 years. This isn't a guess based on the latest headlines, it's extrapolation from sound demographics that anyone can find and analyze on world markets over the past century or so.

Expansion/Contraction, Tim, nothing new. It's referred to metaphorically in the biblical story about Joseph and his Coat of Many colors. He warns the Pharoah of 7 fat years and 7 lean years. Unless you're an advisor to the Pharoah, changing the masses is going to be pretty tough. The best way to change them is to just set the right example and just allow those who find you to learn what they can from it.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

This means potentially massive opportunities across various sectors for those willing to look at things from this perspective. And it also means even more people will be coming online in search of genuine opportunities to increase prosperity.

You make it sound so casual. In actuality, they'll be racing online like lemmings hoping to find gold in them thar hills... it'll be another gold rush and since the internet is really in the mind, they'll be exploring new areas of their mind to see if they can find new veins of gold (creativity).

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

What will they find when they arrive? Probably more bull**** and nonsense.

lol, this is just a tad negative but absolutely understandable. It doesn't even consider the fact that these hordes will be bringing quite a bit of bull**** and nonsense with them. Perhaps you should be watching out for them rather than trying to protect them from...?

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

I saw the very same copy and paste affiliate promotions come in today from two people I'm friends with and I just had this moment of clarity.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

The "Internet marketing" sector just gets more absurd every month doesn't it?

I went through this back in 2002-2003, others with more experience went through it earlier. Some of us go through some version of it at some point but it's a good sign, actually. Having the shocking realization of the kind you're having is a sign that you've made it past a certain point... it signals that you have longevity. You're now just going to have to find a way to cope with what you've seen and make the best of it.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Nobody seems to care whether or not their readers actually receive value or learn how to make money. In fact it really seems virtually everyone is pushing the same packaged garbage that will likely produce little in the way of legitimate results if used by a real entrepreneur.

How many major product launches with blockbuster movie titles and little true substance have we seen in the past six months? How many of the average users of these systems have made even the first dollar in profit?

I've got a question for you, Tim.

Where and when did anyone ever tell you that internet marketing was about "leading horses to water and making them drink?" You can't change human nature. You can only change yourself. Right now, for example, I have no expectations of what you'll do with this reply. How can I? How can I force you to change your "level" so that you "understand" me better? Perhaps you will understand me better if I point out to you that just because we are in the middle of an internet marketing forum doesn't mean you aren't talking to Xth generation victims of the madness you describe.

And you want to tell the old recruits to "give the new guys a break?"

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

This is just insane and it keeps on going. I realize most opportunity seekers are jokers looking for a handout but even a small % of sincere seekers means there are thousands and thousands of people who really do want solid info.

But they'll probably get sideswiped by this infatuation list owners have with the latest and greatest crap to get rolled out.

And maybe they won't, Tim. I think it's pretty shaky when the lynch pin of your whole concern is that "perhaps some sincere seekers amidst the tumultuous masses of upcoming newbies will also be caught up in the madness and swept away."

And perhaps they won't. Again, though I'm not a biblical scholar, the story about Moses obtaining the freedom of the Hebrews, then leading them into the "desert" for 40 years and building the nation of Israel is one heck of a story that can be understood, and applied, metaphorically.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."

If they don't want to plug into it, then their psychological taste buds will reject it and continue looking until they find what tastes right for their particular disposition.

???????

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

This is extremely bizarre and yet the people involved carry on as if nothing absurd is being perpetuated day in and day out. It is extremely likely the IM bubble will burst even further than it has already in recent years and this whole silly party of "we'll all just sell B2B stuff to each other and then nobody has to bother with real consumer products" will be over.

Tim, you're awesome. I'm glad you're having this experience. There's something more to it that'll become obvious soon enough. But, for now, what you just said in the last paragraph is a classic "linear thinking" mistake that is made by 99% of the people I read... they overlook the fact that some of us COMBINE methods across different venues. We're not all selling solely to IM'ers but that is certainly one stream of income.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Maybe the impending influx of new people as a result of the downturn will help initiate change.

Certainly, but not necessarily the kind you're thinking of. It'll be like Obama-style change where you say you're going to pull the troops out of Iraq but then you surge them in Afghanistan. For many people, it's going to seem like madness for a while but it'll settle down again and some of us will come out on top. You just have to understand the forces of nature and be prepared. Build your ark, man.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Many of these people will be unlike opp seekers in the past; folks who lost their job in the crunch really need legitimate business options and it'll be interesting to see their response to the mayhem that currently passes as valid home business information.

But, unlike many in the past who DIDN'T lose their jobs but were just sold on the dream of ditching their bosses and spending more time with their families at a ski lodge or some tropical island, these newcomers will have a REAL HUNGER that will drive a stronger FOCUS and greater determination. And probably a whole lot less tolerance for the bull**** to which you are, understandably, referring.

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

Does this rant make sense to anyone else in here? Am I alone in my disdain for the current state of the mainstream "Internet Marketing Niche"?

Hell, yeah it makes sense. But it's not the whole situation. It's just a SNAPSHOT... like in quantum physics there's reference to "the particle" (the snapshot) and "the wave" (the process) and the ultimate difference is your "level of being", the level of consciousness of the one who OBSERVES.

If you have any more questions, fire away.

Eric

[Greg Cooksley]

Hey Eric,

I like the way you put that.....especially the part about being the "advisor to the pharoah"......

Just one thing I'd add - Iwas talking to a friend of mine yesterday and saying that "we should stop complaining about the state of {insert whatever} and actually start to do something about it" for instance "why complain about the government when you didn't even go and vote yourself"

Regards

Greg

Regards

Greg

[Matt Remuzzi]

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

I don't know if that's true. Do you think people would even think that making money online was possible if they hadn't been exposed to marketers making promises of easy money?

It isn't about how they are going to make money, it is that they are seeking to make money easily, with very little effort or by adding any real value to the process. Whether it is online, MLM, gambling secrets or whatever it is the same mentality that drives these buyers. The marketers didn't create the demand they are just catering to it.

Originally Posted by Keith Kogane

The right way to approach what you're saying is to actually CREATE the way that people can lose weight easily and quickly, and sell that. It doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of false promises.

As BlogBrowser pointed out, there already is a well known, free and effective way to lose weight- eat less and exercise. But that's hard, and many people would prefer a way to lose weight that doesn't require them to put in much effort or give up eating foods they like, which is why the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar annual business and why Lap-Band surgeries and other procedures have become so popular- many people would rather submit to surgery with a possible risk of death than try to succeed with diet and exercise.

[hotlinkz]

Originally Posted by Tim Whiston

What about people who don't want to plug into this insane idea of...

"I'll just sell stuff to sales people so they can get better at selling their marketing tools to other marketers who in turn will be able to use those resources to do a better job of selling B2B items to other online business people."

???????

Tim,

This phenomena has been accurately described in the past as Internet Marketing Incest.

However, you can't load the full responsibility on those pushing the crap. Some of the responsibility must be apportioned to those who continually buy the re-hashed drivel of which you speak.

Greed and laziness often lead buyers to thinking they can begin earning thousands and possibly millions by skipping the most important aspects of establishing a successful and functional business (hard work, focus and perseverance).

How long will it go on? Forever...or at least for as long as man walks the earth. It's in our nature. Case in point...we know without a doubt that war has taken lives, wreaked havoc, and caused misery for untold millions; but even the impending threat of death caused by wars doesn't stop us from declaring and going to war.

One ray of hope in this IM madness is that it does clear the way for those who are willing to impart genuine knowledge by offering legitimate and viable opportunities.

Excellent post by the way...

Calvin

[Janus]

Lots of good comments.

IM certainly has its charlatans just like financial sales and other areas. Fortunately most IM frauds are considerly less than what is seen in direct sales. Yes everyone gets affected to some degree by the actions of others but that doesn't always have to be the negative side. Do your part and you help make the system better although it won't seem like you're having any impact.

The one thing we count on is CHANGE. We don't know the who, what or when with any certainly or the speed of it but we know it is constantly occurring. Quality (value added) is what seems to persevere in the long run.

[Louis Raven]

It's not rehashed crap if it's the first time of reading it

I don't condone buying plr and selling as it is with a "brand new secret" tag put on it but I've seen many Warriors revamp old work and make it 20x better.

I think my post went off topic lol?

regards,
Louis

[Warriorcoach1]

Hi Tim,

I've always been somewhere between amused and distraught by the "internet marketing niche"...

You have a bunch of marketers selling marketing know-how to wannabe marketers who in turn want to sell marketing know-how to future wannabe marketers.

I've been at more than one internet marketing conference where someone in the audience has asked the pointed question, "Do any of you guys sell 'real' products and not just products designed to help you market other products?"

Because, of course, there are lots of us in various niches whose business is not primarily selling marketing knowledge for its own sake. And if you pay attention to the internet marketing niche for too long, you might begin to wonder if it's really possible to make a buck selling anything besides marketing!

Add to this the off-the-charts hype that characterizes sales copy in this niche (hype that would get the rest of us tarred and feathered in our own niches) and you begin to see how artificial the whole thing has become.

The rant stoppeth here