Review site refunders - Is it ethical?

[garyv]

Ok - Normally I'll give out review products to affiliates doing review sites. However, I just received this email today from a Merchant on Clickbank. This person is actually selling review sites:

Hello...
I own suchandsuchReviewSite.com and I was wondering
if we could get a copy of your book to do a review with
for our 4/20/09 niches?
We build 2 niche review sites for our members each
month and this month is: World of Warcraft and XBOX Repair...
If we don't hear from you in 3 days, we'll just buy it
and then get a refund, but I thought I would ask first
because I don't like to see refunds either :~)
Looking forward to hearing from you!

After reading this - I definitely do not want to give this person a free product. I could care less if they give me a bad review. They're making money reviewing these items, they could at least ask for a free review, and not demand one.

Am I over reacting to this? What would you do?

[hotlinkz]

Originally Posted by garyv

Ok - Normally I'll give out review products to affiliates doing review sites. However, I just received this email today from a Merchant on Clickbank. This person is actually selling review sites:

Hello...
I own suchandsuchReviewSite.com and I was wondering
if we could get a copy of your book to do a review with
for our 4/20/09 niches?
We build 2 niche review sites for our members each
month and this month is: World of Warcraft and XBOX Repair...
If we don't hear from you in 3 days, we'll just buy it
and then get a refund, but I thought I would ask first
because I don't like to see refunds either :~)
Looking forward to hearing from you!

After reading this - I definitely do not want to give this person a free product. I could care less if they give me a bad review. They're making money reviewing these items, they could at least ask for a free review, and not demand one.

Am I over reacting to this? What would you do?

What an A**Hole! This is basically a threat. I would copy their email message and forward it to Clickbank as fraudulent activity. Also forward it to their hosting provider and anyone else you can think of. You should definitely name the review site and/or membership site connected with the review sites. Why protect this ecommerce terrorist?

Get the full email header and start posting everything to scam forums. This is nuts .

[garyv]

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

Leave emotions out of the office. Give him a copy, let him write his "review" and don't even think about him one further second. The time you spent typing this post is already too much of your time spent on this topic.

I know you're right - But I can't get past the fact that this person is going to do this to many products in the clickbank market place. They'll make money reviewing these products, and then make the products' refund percentages just a bit worse. They should be making enough, that they can purchase the products if they want to review them, or if they don't want to purchase it, or can't get a free review, just skip over it.

Anywho - that's just my 2 cents. I'm going to send the review product, but I hate how they've gone about getting it.

[Kim Standerline]

Hi Gary

Why don't you send them the review copy, but also point out how you've disliked the way they approached you.

It might make them think before they do it to someone else

Regards
Kim

Originally Posted by garyv

I know you're right - But I can't get past the fact that this person is going to do this to many products in the clickbank market place. They'll make money reviewing these products, and then make the products' refund percentages just a bit worse. They should be making enough, that they can purchase the products if they want to review them, or if they don't want to purchase it, or can't get a free review, just skip over it.

Anywho - that's just my 2 cents. I'm going to send the review product, but I hate how they've gone about getting it.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by Kim Standerline

Hi Gary

Why don't you send them the review copy, but also point out how you've disliked the way they approached you.

It might make them think before they do it to someone else

Regards
Kim

Yes that's a good idea Kim. Actually I just replied to their email, and said that I'd give them a review copy, if they give me a free membership to their site. That should be fair right?

I won't name the site on here. I don't want to give them any publicity. Just wanted some advice.

[Kay King]

I'd bet this is from someone new to affiliate marketing and probably new online. If I answered at all, I'd tell him you issue review copies after viewing sites where reviews are posted and request a link.

Then I would take that info and forward it - along with the email - to Clickbank as he must be an affiliate there.

I wouldn't send him a copy - but would make him buy and refund and waste his time jumping through the hoops.

kay

EDIT: Just noticed you wrote "from a Merchant on Clickbank" - did you mean an affiliate? If it's a merchant, I would definitely contact clickbank.

[yourreviewer]

Hey Gary, this is what you have to do to him

YouTube - Casino - Is this your pen?

[hotlinkz]

Originally Posted by garyv

Yes that's a good idea Kim. Actually I just replied to their email, and said that I'd give them a review copy, if they give me a free membership to their site. That should be fair right?

I won't name the site on here. I don't want to give them any publicity. Just wanted some advice.

Absolutely fair! And if they don't, tell him you'll sign up anyway and ask for a refund after you download everything --- LOL!

Just kidding of course. You would'nt want to stoop to their level.

However, it should be taken seriously. What's to stop an unscrupulous person like this from taking over your product, duplicating it and selling it as their own.

For your own protection, you should at least file a complaint with Clickbank.

I've seen this sort of thing before and it did not end well.

Just my 2 cents.

[Robert Matthew]

Gotta say...whoever sent that to you is a "Jerk Off"

Sorry, but that message has a nasty tone to it.

As an affiliate, I always approach product owners for a copy of the product. But, I do it in a very professional and ethical way. That message you got, was pure B.S.!

However, look at the end result...what could come from it? Possibly more good than bad?

So with that in mind, it may be beneficial just to pass it on to them. Even though they are an A--Hole.

Good luck with this one!

[Trader54]

I would send him a copy, I know its not under the best circumstances
but who knows he may get you a lot of sales.

With the amount of sales that clickbank processes I doubt they would
be much help or have the time to look into something like this.

Your probably best just not rock the boat and just focus on the possible
future sales.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I'd bet this is from someone new to affiliate marketing and probably new online. If I answered at all, I'd tell him you issue review copies after viewing sites where reviews are posted and request a link.

Then I would take that info and forward it - along with the email - to Clickbank as he must be an affiliate there.

I wouldn't send him a copy - but would make him buy and refund and waste his time jumping through the hoops.

kay

EDIT: Just noticed you wrote "from a Merchant on Clickbank" - did you mean an affiliate? If it's a merchant, I would definitely contact clickbank.

Yes this is actually a merchant - they are selling these review sites. And the sites actually look pretty good. I just don't like how they go about getting the products they are reviewing. Believe me, they could probably get a free review product from anyone on clickbank, just by showing their website. They'll obviously make money for themselves and other clickbank merchants.

Who knows - maybe this is some updated version of rich jerk marketing. I guess it works on me, because it got me to look at the website.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Here is what I would do to nail the SOB.

Send the email to Clickbank. Explain to them what he is planning on doing.
In spite of their no questions asked policy, I am sure they won't appreciate
this tact.

Then write back to him, tell him you won't send him a review copy. If he
wants to review it, he will have to buy it. Do NOT say you approve of him
asking for a refund.

When he tries to refund the book, if Clickbank allows it, simply send back
the email of the correspondence you had with Clickbank, go to Jen, one
of the VPs at Clickbank, if you have to (it's what I do) and eventually, the
refund will be denied AND this person will probably be banned from Clickbank
if he's an affiliate.

Why do I know this works?

I've done it and Jen is a peach. She'll make sure the SOB is nailed good.

I absolutely despise people like this and get great joy in making their lives
miserable. They are pariahs on this industry and need to be dealt with
accordingly.

When you contact Jen, tell her Steve Wagenheim sent you.

Let us know how it works out.

[tommygadget]

I would politely tell them that when approaching other vendors in the future, it would be best to not mention purchases and refunds as we all know you can do this. Mentioning refunds might be interpreted as a threat and is not the best way to start a mutually beneficial relationship. Tell him that you are also interested in his product and suggest an exchange. There is no reason to act as badly as they did. After all, doing that would just be bad business and the email may have been thoughtless but (the threat) unintended.

TomG.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by garyv

I know you're right - But I can't get past the fact that this person is going to do this to many products in the clickbank market place. They'll make money reviewing these products, and then make the products' refund percentages just a bit worse. They should be making enough, that they can purchase the products if they want to review them, or if they don't want to purchase it, or can't get a free review, just skip over it.

Anywho - that's just my 2 cents. I'm going to send the review product, but I hate how they've gone about getting it.

It's your business and naturally you can run it as you like, but I'm very
disappointed that you're letting this person get away with what is
essentially extortion, which is illegal.

These people need to be put in jail where they belong.

[yourreviewer]

I agree with Steve. Though it is easier to take the safer route and send him the ebook, it is really infuriating how these jerks can be allowed to twist our arms. These SOBs should be put behind bars. And he really has some balls to email you and demand you to send him your product so that he can do a review and shove dollars into his pocket. WTF, is he doing you a favor?

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by yourreviewer

WTF, is he doing you a favor?

Actually, if he writes a really good review site and sends it to all his members, then heck yeah, he sure is doing you a favor.

TomG.

[hotlinkz]

I agree with Steven on this one. Give in to this and you may as well automatically send him/her a copy of every new product you develop, as I am sure you will be on his/her radar from this point on.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

It's your business and naturally you can run it as you like, but I'm very
disappointed that you're letting this person get away with what is
essentially extortion, which is illegal.

These people need to be put in jail where they belong.

Actually the first thing I did was to forward the email to Tom (it's the only email address I could find) at clickbank. I wasn't sure if it was against their rules or not. It may just be in very poor taste - in which case, it may be more beneficial to me financially just to give him/her a review product. But no matter what happens, I will be letting this person know that they should change their tactics for getting review products.

I'd like to give this person the benefit of the doubt, and just think that maybe they just lack a little bit of tact. However if they turn nasty, then I won't let them get away with it. I'll use the Steven Wagenheim Bull Dog approach.

[Kay King]

As a merchant, I think it's worse. They are selling a product on CB and getting the info to build their products free by extorting other merchants on CB.

I expect they've sent a similar email to other merchants, too. Crazy thing is they could have requested a copy and still could have bought/refunded if the request was denied. If their products are good - most merchants would have given a review copy to them without the threat.

kay

[garyv]

Update - Ok I just received an email back from this merchant, apologizing and giving me a free membership to their review site. Hopefully they don't get into too much trouble, because I guess I'm not the only one that forwarded their email to clickbank.

I guess it was a good lesson for them - AND - for me. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by BlogBrowser

Leave emotions out of the office. Give him a copy, let him write his "review" and don't even think about him one further second. The time you spent typing this post is already too much of your time spent on this topic.

To hell with that. Let him do whatever he wants to do, but DON'T cave in to blackmail.

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by garyv

Update - Ok I just received an email back from this merchant, apologizing and giving me a free membership to their review site. Hopefully they don't get into too much trouble, because I guess I'm not the only one that forwarded their email to clickbank.

I guess it was a good lesson for them - AND - for me. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

SEE? I told you it would be good business for both of you.

TomG.

[Chris Kent]

Be all nice and say "sure thing bud, just tell me what your site is, I'd like to check it out, and I'm sure I can send you a review copy after that".

As soon as he sends you the url, BINGO, send it to CB and get his affiliate account banned. Hopefully they will ban anyone using the same direct deposit details and/or address details too.

Is it not a criminal offence to blackmail someone?

[Black Hat Cat]

Originally Posted by garyv

Update - Ok I just received an email back from this merchant, apologizing and giving me a free membership to their review site. Hopefully they don't get into too much trouble, because I guess I'm not the only one that forwarded their email to clickbank.

I guess it was a good lesson for them - AND - for me. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

This is just sad. You're concerned and basically apologetic about someone else who was essentially committing extortion against you. What in the hell is this world coming too.....

[ajiabs]

The refund is an unethical way to get around the issue. we had review sites contacting us for a review copy. few of them did a good job with thorough review. Nowadays if I see its a decent review site i arrange for them to review our products. I doubt a review site pulled the refund stunt with us, i have no evidence

[garyv]

I agree with TomG. I think that his threat was unintended. It was just poorly worded, very presuming, and not very well thought out. And while I agree that there are a ton of jerks out there. We shouldn't assume that everyone is one.

I think it's always best to give someone a way to crawl out of the hole they've dug (is that proper English?). If they decide to crawl out, then bravo for them. If they bury themselves, then at least you can say that you gave them a chance. I know I've dug many a hole for myself. I always appreciate a second chance.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

[Mary Laine]

I agree, totally rude. It is amazing how stupid he was in that letter, instead of being a jerk, he could have asked politely. If you had said no, he may have done it anyway, but fairly rude that he blackmailed you

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by hotlinkz

What an A**Hole! This is basically a threat. I would copy their email message and forward it to Clickbank as fraudulent activity.

Me, too. I doubt Clickbank would appreciate their affiliates stealing products in this way.

Nothing wrong with them asking for a copy, but you're not obligated to give them one. If they are any good at what they do, they should be able to easily make their money back.

[garyv]

Another update - I got an email back from Tom - security at Clickbank, and he said that he has reviewed this person's purchase history, and so far he is not abusing the system. But he'll keep an eye on it. Maybe the guy is just talk, and doesn't follow thru. Either way, bad form. I hope that he has seen the error of his ways.

[tshipp]

You should have blasted them out here on the WF. I would not have sent a review copy. Let them buy and refund if they choose to, no extra work on your part since clickbank is the processor. IMO review copies are for top producing affiliates not everyone that requests one. This was flat out extortion. Do not negotiate with marketing terrorists.

Tony

[Trader54]

Originally Posted by garyv

Another update - I got an email back from Tom - security at Clickbank, and he said that he has reviewed this person's purchase history, and so far he is not abusing the system. But he'll keep an eye on it. Maybe the guy is just talk, and doesn't follow thru. Either way, bad form. I hope that he has seen the error of his ways.

Yeah he probably just used it as a pressure tactic to get you to give him a review
copy. He may have had no intent of buying and refunding since sounds like he is
promoting clickbank products.

Hope it all works out good for you.

[TeamGlobal]

Hey Gary,

As you go forward with this person in a possible business arrangement remember that by making the statement below that they were proposing to steal your product (buy product, get product, get refund, keep product without paying for it).

If we don't hear from you in 3 days, we'll just buy it
and then get a refund, but I thought I would ask first

IMHO dealing with unethical people is horrible waste of time. Anyone willing to steal your product may be willing to cheat you in some other fashion in the future.


All The Best,


Tony

[garyv]

Originally Posted by TeamGlobal

Hey Gary,

As you go forward with this person in a possible business arrangement remember that by making the statement below that they were proposing to steal your product (buy product, get product, get refund, keep product without paying for it).



IMHO dealing with unethical people is horrible waste of time. Anyone willing to steal your product may be willing to cheat you in some other fashion in the future.


All The Best,


Tony

Yes, I have thought about that. I'm not actually going to be doing business w/ this person, other than letting them review my product. This person will have to prove himself to me. And any future business transactions - if any - will be highly scrutinized.

[Darth Executor]

I'm glad it worked out well enough for you. I'd have gone in guns blazing which may not have yielded results this good.

[lakshaybehl]

I think he is a newbie- Needs hand holding maybe? Tell him quickly that its not the way to deal with it.

OR if you find out he's not a newbie, JUST IGNORE HIM altogether. Let him do what he wants to. Let CB know this happened. If you want an info war, make a video and post it on Youtube. Simple! Enough publicity for him that way. Personally, I;d just let CB know and then mind my own business. Plenty of serial refunders out there anyway. At least he's ethical enough to have warned you!

[iplusgold]

yeah this pretty poor form IMHO. I mean there are enough of these serial clickbank scammers around without getting demand emails from them as well. Having said that, i would probably just go ahead and issue a review copy if hes going to steal it anyway...its a bit defeatist but i just dont have the time to deal with people like this.

Best of luck gary.

[Darth Executor]

Not all people who ask for review copies are newbies. Far from it.

[PeteNY]

You handled it perfectly Gary. I hope I'd have the cool head to handle it the same way. Give him the review copy, report it to Clickbank, tell him you don't like his approach. You gave him the benefit of the doubt, but still put clickbank on alert. Well done!

[gxd5]

I agree with Wagenheim.

Forget negotiating with terrorists. Bullies don't want a fight, they want a victim. The reason they continue these tactics is because they work. If people fought back, these parasites would have to find another way.

You want to steal my product, you are going to have to STEAL it from me. Let the karma be on you. I won't be complicit.

[Jdub2104]

Ok, everyone so I am really interested in this post because I have a review site. First off, garyv, I would have never have given them a copy. The problem is, a review site is supposed to be for people that actually review the product. How are you supposed to know if it is good or not by just getting a free copy.

For example, I had a survey site on my page a while back simply because it had paid out well. Big Mistake. Why? When I actually tested out the survey site it was a joke. Not saying your product is a joke but a review site is for people who actually use the product, no just have it.

It bugs me because I try to help people by showing them what has actually helped me be successful online. I offer video reviews etc. It's not all about the money here, I have helped friends free of charge and family.

People just don't believe in other peoples opinions anymore because of people like them.

p.s. I am sure your product is great garyv but I just hate seeing fake review sites. I just wish clickbank had a price tag on each hoplink that is created.

[Dennis Gaskill]

Originally Posted by garyv

Yes that's a good idea Kim. Actually I just replied to their email, and said that I'd give them a review copy, if they give me a free membership to their site. That should be fair right?

This is just old fashioned extortion. It's what the mafia does only using a different kind of threat. I'm not judging you for your decision, you have to do what you think is right, but I would have reported them not only to Clickbank, but to the legal authorities. Many of you may think that's over the top, but I hate bullies and bully tactics. This kind of thing needs to squashed before it leads to even greater criminal behavior.