Clickbank ripping you off too??

[AdamWB]

I used to hear stories of people not getting credit for affiliate sales, or their sales just randomly dropping with no decrease in traffic/hops. I always thought "sucks to be them, at least my account is fine."

Unfortunately, I'm experiencing the same thing now. A few of my product sales have basically dropped into oblivion, even though my traffic is increasing (the traffic source hasn't changed at all). It gets a little fishy when you're making 2-3sales a day with around a 1:100 conversion rate, then nothing for weeks with a 1:10,000 conversion rate. I mean come on?

Over this last weekend, I had some friends buy my products through my affiliate links just to see if something was up (I paid them for it, and no I didn't get a refund - hence I wasn't ripping off the product owners), and guess what? only 30% of the sales were accounted for. What happened to my other sales? I'm seeing threads popping up everywhere with users experiencing the same thing. You'll get the occasional big honcho jumping in saying "sucks to be you guys, but my sales are fine," only to find out later he's getting the same clickbank runaround.

I've emailed clickbank about the issue several times with no response. In fact, a few minutes ago I signed up for a cool article submitter through my friends affiliate link so he could get credit for the referral. Think he got credit? Nope. Big surprise. That was the last straw and what what motivated me to create this thread actually.

So is clickbank ripping you off too? I'm in the process of migrating all of my sites to paydotcom or other affiliate sites. What do you guys think?

[James Campbell]

I think that a class action lawsuit is in order. People being ripped off should unite and make it happen.

I'm not being ripped off because I'm not promoting via clickbank, so I'm out.

It is something you should seriously consider and think about.

James

[bt]

Man that's scary, a strange thing happened to me a few days ago on one of my affiliate sales through clickbank, I noticed a customer had got a refund 30 minutes after making a purchase, so I'm thinking to myself how can that be, the refund process through clickbank usually takes at least 1 or 2 days.

So I call clickbank and ask how the customer was able to get a refund so quickly, and the clickbank rep says the customer must have called In the refund on the phone, but you know what, most customers don't even know that clickbank even has a phone number.

[kkchoon]

Never had this experience before... anyone else? Please share, I think this is extremely important for affiliates.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by kkchoon

Never had this experience before... anyone else? Please share, I think this is extremely important for affiliates.

You'd be surprised. I'm not sure if I can post links to other forums here, but there's one thread in particular on another forum that would literally blow your mind about how clickbank is treating their affiliates.

It's pretty much been concluded that CB is either shaving sales, or their tracking system is a complete failure right now. Either way, people are not getting the sales they rightfully deserve.

What's even worse is CB will not acknowledge my emails, even though I have 100% proof something is wrong.

[milan]

Let me guess what might've happened:

Your "friend" who wasn't credited for the sale is actually you, or a person from the same house/office. Clickbank's system figured that out and didn't want the "affiliate" to get the credit for such a tactic.

So who's ripping off who?

[n00b]

Actually, if you read on Clickbank's website they make it clear that an affiliate is allowed to purchase a product through their own link. The only time it's a problem is if they can determine that you signed up as an affiliate solely to get a "discount" on items. I think it's clear from this thread that this affiliate is not doing that and that they are not trying to rip anybody off. If they want to purchase through their own link or reimburse a couple of people for purchasing through their link they are perfectly within their rights to do so and it in no way rips anyone off. The only way it could be construed that way is if this affiliate was then having these people request refunds through Clickbank.

[milan]

Originally Posted by n00b

...he only time it's a problem is if they can determine that you signed up as an affiliate solely to get a "discount" on items.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by n00b

I think it's clear from this thread that this affiliate is not doing that....

How is that clear from this thread? BTW the OP bought one of MY products through a ghost affiliate that sold only that one sale, at the time where I had only one affiliate promoting my product. At least I'm sure he knows how to clear affiliate cookies...

[David Chamberlain]

Hi

I've made a couple of sales recently and I walked the customers through the sign up process - it was for a membership site. None of tehm were recognised by Clickbank, I did this just to check. I'm not too bothered as it was only going to make me about $500 a year - so it's not big fish BUT it is $500 which should be in my pocket.

It just makes me wary of promoting Clickbank products, why waste my time and effort on something that I may not even get recognition for?

I emailed support and got a message on what a hoplink should look like. A bit patronising really. Has anyone started a petition? I'll sign....

Regards

David

[Roy Carter]

Adam - re: It gets a little fishy when you're making 2-3 sales a day with around a 1:100 conversion rate, then nothing for weeks with a 1:10,000 conversion rate. I mean come on?

I have to say that I too have been very concerned about this since the beginning of this year. I have one product that was converting very well and very consistently then suddenly bammo! Zero sales from consistent levels of high traffic. Too weird to be true.

I have considered taking the product off CB but the dilemma is that I have a lot of affiliates promoting it and no way to contact many of them to let them know if I want to move it. I don't want to upset my afiliates as I value them highly but something has to be done as it's just ridiculous.

CB deny any problems with their tracking as a matter of course, but too many people have now tested this and not been paid commissions for provable sales made. I've even heard several people say that they got someone to buy their own product via an aff link and the sale was not recorded.

Like I say, my own experience with a top selling product that has dropped to zero has me hoping that CB get things sorted and fast. I've always thought CB was a great service but they surely cannot keep ignoring this problem.

It's all very well for people to come on and defend CB, but when it happens to their own business they'll see how frustrating this is and perhaps understand that there are way too many people that this is happening to for it to be cast aside as not relevant.

[lamborman]

are there any good alternatives to clickbank then guys

[Dellco]

I'm pretty sure Clickbank is ripping off some of its affiliates, maybe not all but definitely some. And I'm likely to be in that "some."

I have CB on many of my sites and I just know my sales should be higher.

CB is smart, they make sure they give sales to enough people, (God only knows how much they earn) and these people will always show their big checks from CB and go around saying "What CB scam you're talking about?"

Until it happens to them....

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by milan

Exactly.



How is that clear from this thread? BTW the OP bought one of MY products through a ghost affiliate that sold only that one sale, at the time where I had only one affiliate promoting my product. At least I'm sure he knows how to clear affiliate cookies...

Milan, come on man, you gotta be kidding me. Is this you getting mad because I took a refund on your buggy product? Take it up with me over email, and don't water up my thread please. Or at least give me the respect to read my post before coming to your own delusional conclusions.

Yes, I've signed up many times under my own affiliate link to get a discount on a product or to check a product out so I can make a review to sell it, yes I am guilty (who isn't?). In fact some affiliates I know encourage it. And I'm sure the affiliates hate it when I do that and turn around and make them thousands of dollars. Boo hoo, poor them. I am well within the CB TOS in doing so, and they have even given me the go-ahead in emails to do so.

As far as who's ripping off who. I think it's obvious and it doesn't take a wannabe programmer to figure it out.

Anyway this thread was started to bring up awareness. I've been with CB many years, as I'm sure many of you have. It's pretty disheartening to see them doing dropping the ball like this after so many successfull years.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by ArthurRose

Yes, CB rips people off, but I'm not surprised due to economy. To be honest, all affiliate and CPA networks do this, so just live with it.


No.

Yea, I've seen this with a few bucketshop CPA networks, but my tracking is pretty much 100% spot on with the larger more reputable ones. As far as CPA networks go, what ones have you found that do this to you?

[captivereef]

Well i only make a few sales a day so my experience is some what limited. But i hav e noticed a sharp decrease in sales in the last month or so.

One thing i do notice is that my tracking stats are screwed up bad. I redirect my domains to the click bank page via ezinearticles and no matter what i do i keep getting 50% of my stats saying no tracking code even though the TID is there when i check my redirect link.

I also get some really weird tracking codes coming through that are 10-18 characters long.

[ahefner33]

I'm the one that AdamWB bought from using my aff. link and nope it did not go through. My sales have also dropped off. Some reason I think its there tracking system because the amount people that are claiming not getting sales is too obvious if a company wanted to be shady. But still it's scary because you have no way of knowing whats going on.

Originally Posted by milan

Let me guess what might've happened:

Your "friend" who wasn't credited for the sale is actually you, or a person from the same house/office. Clickbank's system figured that out and didn't want the "affiliate" to get the credit for such a tactic.

So who's ripping off who?

[dimeco]

I actually refuse to use clickbank for these reasons, even as an affiliate they still have nearly $500 in commissions on hold just because it was only a few sales, not enough "different" forms of payment. (Ridiculous - obviously these people haven't refunded, its been there since August of last year!)

One thing that "might" be affecting it: If people have certain settings in their browser.

i.e,. cookie tracking. I had this happen with one of my affiliate program scripts, even though it was supposedly the newest version, it didn't track properly if people had their cookies off or blocked. (I obviously switched aff programs very quickly, and compared my raw traffic logs to match those few up thankfully).

Had it happening in a way with people logging into one of my sites, people weren't seeing the changes, even though they were there.

It can come down to:

- their browser
- their browser version
- their security settings
- their cookie settings.

You'd "THINK" CB would have sessions and IP tracking too, not just cookies, but I suspect that's a lot of what's happening here.

The newest (full) version of IE really messes this stuff up. If so many have upgraded to the newer IE, they might be the ones causing these issues without even knowing it. It's really bad for cacheing and blocking unless you *know* where to change your settings.

Food for thought - it might not "just" be CB's fault, might be a combination of these factors. (I also rarely use IE either except for testing LOL)

Amber

[milan]

Originally Posted by AdamWB

Milan, come on man, you gotta be kidding me. Is this you getting mad because I took a refund on your buggy product? Take it up with me over email, and don't water up my thread please. Or at least give me the respect to read my post before coming to your own delusional conclusions.

Adam, I did not come up with any conclusions or water up the discussion, I told one of the possible reasons you're experiencing what you're experiencing. I suggested that your practice might be against the TOS of affiliate networks (buying through your own affiliate link just to get a discount), and that in such cases one cannot blame an affiliate network for not crediting those sales (that is, acting according to their rules). Now that you've confirmed that's what you do, I'll add that the name for the license of my software you used is not even similar to Adam B. which is not complaint with personal software licensing agreements. That practice is way different than getting a copy tio "make a review to possibly sell it". But, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, do as you think it ethical.

Some of your comments are out of the line, I don't respect your buying practices, but I don't insult you. I'm not a wannabe programmer, I have tons of credentials and projects behind me. Including Microsoft Certified Trainer for the last 5 years where I teach top professional programmers.

[Roy Carter]

Amber - re:- they still have nearly $500 in commissions on hold just because it was only a few sales, not enough "different" forms of payment. (Ridiculous - obviously these people haven't refunded, its been there since August of last year!)


If you email them and just ask, they will release that money for you.


Roy

[Steven Wagenheim]

Okay, this "Clickbank is ripping me off" crap has got to stop.

Does their tracking system leave a bit to be desired? Yes. But their system
has had bugs in it since the early days when I first started affiliate marketing.

It was never great. I lost sales all the time from people writing to me, sending
me their receipts, forwarding the email I sent, and yet I didn't get credit for
the sale. Sometimes another affiliate got it, sometimes no affiliate got it.
If no affiliate got it, I managed to get Clickbank to credit me the sale. It's a
pain in the ass process but they'll do it if no affiliate got the sale and you
have a relationship with the merchant.

But intentionally ripping affiliates off?

It's ludicrous.

Logic...use a little common sense.

Affiliate signs up with Clickbank.
Affiliate promotes product.
Affiliate sells product.
Affiliate doesn't get credit for sales.
Affiliate gets pissed and stops promoting Clickbank products.

Who gets hurt?

Okay, use a little common sense folks. Clickbank is not in the business
of ripping affiliates off.

Yes, they need to really tighten up their tracking system because it has
some problems. But intentionally ripping off affiliates?

It's the most absurd accusation I've heard in my 6 plus years of marketing
online.

[Roy Carter]

Hi Steven

I don't believe that CB are intentionally ripping people off at all, for exactly the reasons that you outline. I DO strongly believe they have a problem with their tracking though, and a big one.

[cosmokid]

Clickbank shamelessly, constantly, and systemically rips people off by not tracking sales correctly. Both for affiliates and publishers.

It's pretty hilarious right now, actually!

I still have links up as both a publisher and as an affiliate and what they do to me (they've been doing this since the fall) is they let me have sales one week, then I have a week of flat zeroes, then I get sales, then they give me another flat week of zeroes, and the pattern goes on.

Never changes. You can set your calendar by it. In fact, I have.

Anybody who is working with them really needs to pull their products from their network or stop promoting them as an affiliate. I continue to have my ebook up because I have a boatload of affiliates promoting it through Clickbank, plus I've been lazy and I haven't updated to offer other payment forms yet because I'm in the middle of revamping the book and am waiting until I get that done. The affiliate links I still have up are from older websites and promotions that are sitting out there and not easily rescinded - plus they're often for products that don't have a comparable competitor on Paydot.com.

It's been pretty funny, watching these statistically improbably patterns that repeat with such perfect, clinical, predictability.

When you email them you get their canned response - or when Steven emails his contact Jennifer or whatever there you get something a little more personal and nice. (Personal sidenote - By the way Steve, thanks for all the support you gave me last fall when I was having my problems online! I really appreciated it. It's good to be back here again.)

When I email them and tell them there appears to be a problem, within hours I get a bunch of sales. Then they dry up again. Email them again, I get another cluster of sales within hours of them receiving the email. I could repeat this over and over again if I wanted to but frankly I'm in the business of making money, not dealing with losers who can't be bothered to fix ongoing, systemic problems in their platform.

Don't work with them, people. If your account isn't being affected now, it will be at some point. And then you'll have the unique pleasure of joining in on one of these hundreds of threads happening at all the webmaster forums, talking about the very serious problems you've been having, and one of three things will happen:

1) The people who make good money at Clickbank (the high earners) whose accounts for whatever reason appear to be protected from these problems (theory is that they sit on a different server or something) will tell you you're an idiot and defend Clickbank's reputation with more vigor than a knight defending his lady's honor:

2) Various folks will come out and tell you you're a crappy marketer and you're to blame, or that your IQ is low and you don't have the wits to spot obvious crazy patterns (sales one week, a week of zeroes, sales one week, a week of zeroes, for six months.)

3) A few people might say "Wow, I thought it was me! I'm having serious problems, too!"

That's what you get. Pick your poison. It's 1, 2, or 3 folks.

Jennifer

[Roy Carter]

Interesting post Jennifer.

[Hamida Harland]

Jennifer has just beautifully summed up my experience with Clickbank for the last few months. One week I might get conversions of 1 in 10 hops, next week the same products might not convert at all. It's very disheartening and I wish Clickbank weren't such a huge chunk of my income. Although the situation has forced me to diversify alot I still find it hard to find products that convert as well as Clickbanks (when they are crediting me with sales).

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by cosmokid

When you email them you get their canned response - or when Steven emails his contact Jennifer or whatever there you get something a little more personal and nice. (Personal sidenote - By the way Steve, thanks for all the support you gave me last fall when I was having my problems online! I really appreciated it. It's good to be back here again.)

Glad I was able to help.

I think Clickbank's problems, which I think somebody above stated, goes
beyond Clickbank itself.

I know for a fact that many browsers, if certain things are set, will not
write cookies correctly, if at all.

Then there is Spybot. I don't know if that problem has been resolved or
not but it was a problem at one time.

Is Clickbank's tracking system great? Not by a longshot. I think there is a
ton of room for improvement. I think they know this. I also think that if
there was a way to improve it, they would do it.

If I had to take a guess at this, I'd say the problem they're having is a
similar one to one that a friend of mine is having with his site. He is stuck
with an architecture that is old and outdated. For him to make the changes
needed, it would cost him a small fortune. We're talking about a huge site.

The problem is, he's not making enough from the membership to justify
the cost of upgrading.

Now, I know Clickbank is making a fortune every year. Still, they need to
justify the cost of revamping their system to the board. If they can't
do that (it's not about our problems) then it's not going to happen.

The only way it will happen is if they lose enough business (something
that's not yet happened) to the point where they have no choice.

Then...something will be done.

Do we have a long wait?

Probably. Depends on how many merchants and affiliates get fed up with
their poor tracking and go elsewhere.

The problem is, they are so big and so popular, for every affiliate and
merchant who leaves, 10 take their place.

The campaign that would have to be waged to get people to stop using
Clickbank would cost mega dollars to launch. I think even somebody like
John Reese wouldn't find it economically feasible, unless he was the one
coming up with an alternative to Clickbank.

A lot of people thought PayDotCom was the solution. I honestly don't
know why Mike hasn't done more to make it a serious contender. But the
main problem is that merchants have to pay their own commissions. This
is not an attractive option to first time merchants looking to get into the
marketplace. So they go to Clickbank. On the flip side, affiliates don't want
to promote products that they might not get paid for. I myself have been
burned by PayDotCom merchants and thus will only promote products of
people who I know personally.

Bottom line...Clickbank has no real competition. And as long as that
fact remains, there is no real incentive for them to do anything about any
of their problems...if they do in fact exist.

That is the reality that we have to deal with.

Thanks Jennifer! Some super ideas about what is really happening there, I think I will use PayDotCom for my 1st info product then! I think Clickbank will start to hurt my sales if I go w/ them...even if I get a lot of affiliates, I want to go w/ a place that is at least more reliable.

Sheila

Good points about paydotcom too STeven....not sure what I will do then...

[Kay King]

I agree, Jennifer. I'm tired of the apologists.

I don't believe CB is intentionally "ripping off affiliates".

However, their old, outdated tracking system is not reliably crediting affiliates and the result is the same as if they were stealing commissions.

The complaints have increased as more affiliates are taking a look at their CB links. Sellers don't complain because the sales are going through - CB is happy because the sales are going through. The affiliate is left out of the loop because tracking links disappear randomly for some reason.

Unlike other affiliate programs, CB has not upgraded it's tracking in years. If CB were as profitable as some think it would have competition by now. When PDC was started it was advertised as a replacement that would surpass CB - but it can't because it doesn't pay affiliates directly. That is CB's hook. From search options to find products to the tracking of sales, CB is an outdated site that refuses to invest in improvements.

kay

[Jmn187]

My vote is there system. Its borderline stone age.

[JordanFrancis]

There is obviously a problem.

Those who declare there isn't just hasn't been effected yet

So what ya gonna do about it?

Whether the problem is intentional or not (I think not) the end result is the same = you not getting paid for work done.

Clickbank, why have you forsaken us?!

[W.P. Allen]

We need more threads like this, not less!

This is a business just like any other and if they cannot conduct their business properly then they need to be called out.

People spend thousands of dollars promoting products through their system and expect their system to be effective.

What if you invested in the stock market with an investment company and your stocks shot through the roof and you wanted to sell but you only get paid for 40% of your stocks total worth. You email your investment company (because for some reason they don't have a telephone number) and they send you an email back saying it's the economy's fault (or they don't respond at all). You'd definitely want to make a stink about it.

Now imagine that this was happening to a lot of people. Do you think those people should just shrug their shoulders and forget about it.

Clickbank should be harassed continuously until they fix this problem and if they don't fix the problem then everyone should dump them and find a reliable alternative.

[Chris Freville]

I met the Clickbank management team in London, personally, so I got to talk to them direct. I honestly dont think they would intentionally do such a thing

[Roy Carter]

Chris - I think most people realise that they are not intentionally ripping affiliates off, as has been said. But Steven is right, unless people start deserting them in droves (which has already started) then little will be done to force them to upgrade their system.

I know that I and many, many others don't actually want to abandon them, but they are virtually forcing us to do so for future products because I believe they are well aware that there is a problem but they seem to want to bury their heads in the sand and hope it will just go away. It won't.

If they responded to people's enquiries and concerns with the approach that they are aware of the problem and are working vigorously to sort it, then I think that people would feel a little more able to continue with them, knowing that the problem was being addressed.

Instead they give glib answers. Sorry, but we have reached the stage where people are no longer prepared to accept that.

[sajae102]

I was going to use Clickbank as a way to make sales, when I noticed that a lot of customers and publishers were complaining a lot about the products. The products at Clickbank are GARBAGE! They don't bother to screen their advertisers at all before accepting their campaign. In return, there are a lot more chargebacks, meaning in the end you will just be wasting your time.

Also, Clickbank doesn't pay you unless you get sales using two different credit cards. i mean....most people who shop online use Paypal! I say create your own product and sale that...make an ebook, book, or cookbook and sell it online.

[Johnathan]

Actually Steve...

I have read a number of good posts from you, but believe you may be mistaken here...

It is not uncommon for some businesses to 'deliberately' "shave" commissions (or other things/different businesses), etc, because there is a lack of accountability. The excuse is 'programmer' error, and when you are doing tens of millions of dollars in monthly volume, it adds up.

So if an affiliate say made "100" sales, and a business "shaved" 5 of those sales, most affiliates would be none the wiser because there is no way for the affiliate to "monitor" the actual number of sales made on the vendors account (short of getting the vendors password, and mapping the IP address of completed sales to the IP address of leads generated from the affiliates site).

Actually, cell phone companies are known for this practise, but in a different form. They deliberately overbill anwhere from 5%-10% of their clients on an alternating schedule (i.e., 10% of 1 million = 100,000 customers). Out of those 100,000 customers, only 1% are ever likely to notice AND complain AND jump through the hoops to get their money back. So, the cell phone company pockets an extra 10% monthly revenue. It is a known practise.

From what I've read, it does seem very likely that CB is doing this.

Why? Because they figure they won't get caught. Plus, if they do, they can say 'oops! silly programmer error'.

Before -- the internet was "sparse" enough that if one person became aware of a poor business practise, it was difficult to get a company to change.

However, with sites (forums) such as this, where people congregate -- if you get enough people aware of a poor business practise and getting them in 'bulk' to complain, then the company usually will change its practise.

So it is very likely that CB is doing that -- the old expression where there is smoke there is fire. They just figure they won't get caught... Until enough people realize what is going on and complain.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Okay, this "Clickbank is ripping me off" crap has got to stop.

Does their tracking system leave a bit to be desired? Yes. But their system
has had bugs in it since the early days when I first started affiliate marketing.

It was never great. I lost sales all the time from people writing to me, sending
me their receipts, forwarding the email I sent, and yet I didn't get credit for
the sale. Sometimes another affiliate got it, sometimes no affiliate got it.
If no affiliate got it, I managed to get Clickbank to credit me the sale. It's a
pain in the ass process but they'll do it if no affiliate got the sale and you
have a relationship with the merchant.

But intentionally ripping affiliates off?

It's ludicrous.

Logic...use a little common sense.

Affiliate signs up with Clickbank.
Affiliate promotes product.
Affiliate sells product.
Affiliate doesn't get credit for sales.
Affiliate gets pissed and stops promoting Clickbank products.

Who gets hurt?

Okay, use a little common sense folks. Clickbank is not in the business
of ripping affiliates off.

Yes, they need to really tighten up their tracking system because it has
some problems. But intentionally ripping off affiliates?

It's the most absurd accusation I've heard in my 6 plus years of marketing
online.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Okay, this "Clickbank is ripping me off" crap has got to stop.

Does their tracking system leave a bit to be desired? Yes. But their system
has had bugs in it since the early days when I first started affiliate marketing.

It was never great. I lost sales all the time from people writing to me, sending
me their receipts, forwarding the email I sent, and yet I didn't get credit for
the sale. Sometimes another affiliate got it, sometimes no affiliate got it.
If no affiliate got it, I managed to get Clickbank to credit me the sale. It's a
pain in the ass process but they'll do it if no affiliate got the sale and you
have a relationship with the merchant.

But intentionally ripping affiliates off?

It's ludicrous.

Logic...use a little common sense.

Affiliate signs up with Clickbank.
Affiliate promotes product.
Affiliate sells product.
Affiliate doesn't get credit for sales.
Affiliate gets pissed and stops promoting Clickbank products.

Who gets hurt?

Okay, use a little common sense folks. Clickbank is not in the business
of ripping affiliates off.

Yes, they need to really tighten up their tracking system because it has
some problems. But intentionally ripping off affiliates?

It's the most absurd accusation I've heard in my 6 plus years of marketing
online.

Steven,

I have the upmost respect for you, but I 100% disagree with you here. Yes, I was once where you stood. It was pretty absurd, my sales were not faultering, and I was accusing people of jumping to ridiculous conclusions because it 'just did not make sense'.

And you have to admit, the proof I am laying out here is pretty compelling. Actually it's not compelling, it's proof, 100%. Compelling would be if it were still up in question. It's not. Either their tracking system is bugged at the moment, or they are shaving sales. Which ever it is, it needs to be addressed. And I'm not even close to the only one experiencing these things. The forum complaints sprinkled around the net, as well as the people on this thread, are evidence of that.

As to which problem it is, I really think it could be either. From a business standpoint, both make sense. They know they have no competition, they know 99% of affiliates won't notice, so they know they can get away with it. I guess we could go on and sit on a log and pout, saying "well nothing I can do oh well." But I think this problem is in the beginning stages of getting 'completely out of hand'. And if enough people take action, hopefully, they will take notice and do something about it.

IF it were indeed a tracking problem, which is most likely the case IN MY OPINION, and they aren't doing anything fix it (which they are clearly not), then I still think they are technically ripping people off.

[Guitarjoe]

Originally Posted by Roy Carter

Hi Steven

I don't believe that CB are intentionally ripping people off at all, for exactly the reasons that you outline. I DO strongly believe they have a problem with their tracking though, and a big one.

I don't believe that it's intentional either, but it's happening WAY too much. I just caught it happening yesterday, as a matter of fact.

I clicked on my clickbank affiliate link and saw my affiliate ID extension in my address bar:

/?hop=MyAccount

I clicked on the link, scrolled to the bottom of the purchase page and saw "Affiliate = None".

There was an upsell link and I tried that and got the same result. I then re-typed the entire hoplink address in there with my ID and tried again, but STILL didn't receive credit!!!

I was NOT happy because I'd sent 161 clicks to this product with zero conversions.

I called Clickbank and the gal I spoke to told me she FOUND a problem, but she didn't say what it was. She said she'd get back to me today. The merchant is huge in Clickbank and I don't think she wanted to incriminate anyone without getting all the facts first.

I can't justify continuing to whine about something that can't be changed, however there are hundreds of other merchants online, many of which that are very credible, where I can be pretty much assured of getting credit for my sales when I promote their products.

It doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, the fact is that it's not a joke, it's happening and needs to be addressed.

If sales are being made, and the affiliates aren't getting credit, then someone else is benefitting from someone elses hard work and advertising budget.

Sorry, but that ain't right.

My two cents.


Joe

[Mark .W. James]

you know whose a bigger lead shaver than clickbank?.. paydotcom!

goto ejunkie.. its the best out there!.. for $5, they provide amazing features...
simply put, you'd be an idiot to not use them.

[Steven Wagenheim]

I'm going to address Adam and Jonathan with this reply.

First of all, Jonathan, it makes no sense for Clickbank to shave commissions
because they get nothing out of it. If you understood Clickbank's system,
you'd realize this.

Obviously, you don't.

So here it is in black and white.

I will use my own product as an example.

One product I sell, sells for $47.

If I sell it on my own, I get $42.47

Clickbank keeps $4.53

I give 60% commission on each sale.

If somebody else makes a sale, I get $16.99 Clickbank keeps $1.81 from
my 40% or a little over 10%.

The affiliate gets $25.48, which is $2.72 less than they should have
gotten taken in the Clickbank fee, which in this case, is about 9.6%.

Either way, Clickbank makes the same amount of money whether a
merchant makes the sale or an affiliate makes the sale. So shaving
commissions is not only a stupid thing to do, it doesn't even make any
financial sense.

So I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong here.

Adam, I have already said that their tracking system has problems. But
again, read my post about PayDotCom. Until somebody comes into the
arena who is serious about challenging Clickbank, nothing is going to
change. There is simply no incentive for them to change their system
if they are making the same amount of money now, with all the problems
and complaints, as they were back in the day when "supposedly" they
ran a tight ship.

Honestly, I have never seen that day as I have had problems with lost
sales going all the way back to 2003. I've had more phone conversations
with Jen about this than I've spoken to my step sister in the last 6 years.

Point is, this has been going on forever, and the only reason it seems
worse now than it did 6 years ago is because there are more people using
Clickbank than there were 6 years ago.

Want things to change?

Delete your Clickbank account and go elsewhere.

Start a mass promotional campaign (costing millions of dollars) against
Clickbank.

Create a competitive company with the same key features (marketplace
listing and paying of affiliates through the company)

Otherwise, stop complaining about the two headed monster that you're
not going to be able to destroy any other way.

That's why these threads are pointless.

Do something or stop whining.

[nmh]

OMG!!! What about Commission Junction or E-Junkie then? you all scared me to death as a newbie to use CB.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by milan

Adam, I did not come up with any conclusions or water up the discussion, I told one of the possible reasons you're experiencing what you're experiencing. I suggested that your practice might be against the TOS of affiliate networks (buying through your own affiliate link just to get a discount), and that in such cases one cannot blame an affiliate network for not crediting those sales (that is, acting according to their rules). Now that you've confirmed that's what you do, I'll add that the name for the license of my software you used is not even similar to Adam B. which is not complaint with personal software licensing agreements. That practice is way different than getting a copy tio "make a review to possibly sell it". But, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, do as you think it ethical.

Some of your comments are out of the line, I don't respect your buying practices, but I don't insult you. I'm not a wannabe programmer, I have tons of credentials and projects behind me. Including Microsoft Certified Trainer for the last 5 years where I teach top professional programmers.

Milan, it's not unethical. Affiliates encourage it. They want you to buy their product, review it, and sell it for them - THAT'S HOW THEY MAKE MONEY. If a rebate gives you incentive to accomplish the above, more power to you. Give me 1 affiliate that disagrees with that, and I'll give you 100 that don't. That's just the way it is my man.

And yes, you did water up my thread. Your post clearly had nothing to do with CB ripping people off, and accused me of something I did not do. The program in question, wasn't even your product. Therefore, you jumped to conclusions. Anyway, if you some personal problem with me, take it up in PM or email.

[Harvey.Segal]

I managed to get a transcript of a conversation between two ClickBank employees.

A: I've got Fred Smith on the phone complaining yet again:
one week zero sales, the next week lots of sales.

B: Well just do the usual trick. Go to his account and click
on the "Activate" button. It always works - it is
programmed to cause an onrush of sales and keep him quiet

A: OK but I've been thinking. If that solves the problem then
surely . . . that means you know what the problem is.

B: Shhh. Lower your voice - of course I do.

A: Then why don't you code it in

B: Too much work. As you know I'm the only programmer here
and I wrote the system twenty years ago in Cobol.

A: But people are complaining.

B: Well use the server 7 solution

A: What's that ?

B: I've put the code fix on server number 7.
That's where we put the top sellers. So stick Fred in there.

Any more problems ?

A: Affiliate Jim Kelly can't get sales. He read at the
Warrior forum that if you open a new account then
miraculously the sales start again.

B: It's not a miracle. New accounts get put on server 8
where I've also put the code fix.

A: So how long before you do all the servers.

B: Oh it's only an hour's work but no hurry, we've got no
competitors so we're not worried about annoying vendors and
affiliates. Maybe next year some time.

[John Wood]

ClickBank may not be intentionally ripping affiliates off but they sure don't seem to be in any rush to try and permanently fix the tracking problems that many of us see on a daily basis.

Like Steve said until ClickBank have some more direct competition they have no real reason to fix this. They still make their fees. They may lose some affiliates over this but more new ones come along everyday.

[kkchoon]

I think many anti spyware and antivirus is blocking cookies from CPA network and Clickbank, may be this is one of the reason why many affiliate sales is not track correctly!

[JonStein]

Good Post, and Good responses:
However, here is something I discovered on Clickbank. I set up to promote a product and readied the landing page, etc etc, then I tested the hoplink, to follow through all the way and make sure the clickbank/paypal page shows affilliate=*ME*. It did! HOWEVER: when i exited the page a popup came up, as they do, and offered a discount if I purchased it. I followed the discount page to ensure the affiliate link would also be on the payment page. BUT, when I arrived at the 'discount paypal page' affiliate=none . So I investigated a little further, and here is what I found. When the popup came up, and I clicked,
it redirects to a NON-TRACKED page, in other words as if I entered the page directly and not through a hoplink. The redirected page was a totally different domain name. I do not think it is Clickbank, but it is the saavy marketers who set up redirect pages to avoid paying the affiliates.
My advice is to follow all redirects and check to make sure the affiliate=*you* at the bottom of the paypal page. I am not sure if this solves the overall problem, but needless to say I will not promote a product that uses these redirects.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Want things to change?

Delete your Clickbank account and go elsewhere.

Start a mass promotional campaign (costing millions of dollars) against
Clickbank.

Create a competitive company with the same key features (marketplace
listing and paying of affiliates through the company)

Otherwise, stop complaining about the two headed monster that you're
not going to be able to destroy any other way.

That's why these threads are pointless.

Do something or stop whining.

Sorry Steven, but your outlook on this whole mess is abysmal at best. Free markets are ran by this exact scenario. Yes, I do agree with you that nothing is going to happen overnight, and probably not next year. Just because this thread alone isn't going to stop the Goliath of CB (not even close), does not mean people should just turn the other cheek.

If everyone had the same mentality as you, nothing would get done, ever. Thank God people have opinions and are willing to take action on it. Sure, I don't have the resources to take on CB, but if the Dam that CB is trying to hold up against this massive flood of complaints breaks to the right people - look out CB. Yea, that may be wishful thinking. But history has proven time and time again that the above situation does not go unnoticed forever. Thankfully, CB's days are numbered.

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Set up new accounts with new hoplinks....

I must have 30 accts on clickbank now. Whenever they start with the shaving ****, I just open a new acct, change out my hoplinks, and my conversions go back to normal.

After posting about this a few months ago, other people tried the same thing and had the same results.

Anyone that says that Clickbank isn't screwing their affiliates is in denial.

[Guitarjoe]

Originally Posted by JonStein

Good Post, and Good responses:
However, here is something I discovered on Clickbank. I set up to promote a product and readied the landing page, etc etc, then I tested the hoplink, to follow through all the way and make sure the clickbank/paypal page shows affilliate=*ME*. It did! HOWEVER: when i exited the page a popup came up, as they do, and offered a discount if I purchased it. I followed the discount page to ensure the affiliate link would also be on the payment page. BUT, when I arrived at the 'discount paypal page' affiliate=none . So I investigated a little further, and here is what I found. When the popup came up, and I clicked,
it redirects to a NON-TRACKED page, in other words as if I entered the page directly and not through a hoplink. The redirected page was a totally different domain name. I do not think it is Clickbank, but it is the saavy marketers who set up redirect pages to avoid paying the affiliates.
My advice is to follow all redirects and check to make sure the affiliate=*you* at the bottom of the paypal page. I am not sure if this solves the overall problem, but needless to say I will not promote a product that uses these redirects.

Hi John,

Actually, this is very common. I just learned about it from Keith Baxter a few weeks ago in an email he sent me, referring to how he chooses CPA offers. He says to stay away from offers like that for that very reason. He should know too, as he owns the CPA network, ModernClick.com .

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Set up new accounts with new hoplinks....

I must have 30 accts on clickbank now. Whenever they start with the shaving ****, I just open a new acct, change out my hoplinks, and my conversions go back to normal.

After posting about this a few months ago, other people tried the same thing and had the same results.

Anyone that says that Clickbank isn't screwing their affiliates is in denial.

Jeremy,

That's a good idea, and very interesting. I'm going to try it and see if it works. If you're theory is correct, the obvious problem lies in CB's shady business practices, not some faulty cookie/tracking system.

[Johnathan]

Lol,

Hi Steve,

Please give me a little credit at least

Here is what an affiliate processor could do.

Let's say you have a $100 product with a 30% commission, and 10% processor fee (using these numbers for simplicity).

Under normal circumstances, this is how an affiliate sale 'should' work.

$100 sale

$30 - Affiliate gets $30 - Affiliate sale
$10 - Processor gets $10
$60 - Vendor gets $60 - Because of an affiliate sale

Now... If an affiliate system was to 'keep' commissions .

$100 Sale
-- Nothing for affiliate
$10 Processor Fee
$60 Vendor -- Vendor THINKS it is an "affiliate" sale (it shows up as an 'affiliate' sale in the vendor panel, so the vendor is happy, because they made an affiliate sale)

--> other "$30" affiliate sale could get 'lost' or 'pocketed' into the processor, so

+$30 'bonus' processor fee

This is what it sounds like some people are describing.