JV pros: how do I find partners in a field where no one understands marketing

[jonb]

I'm trying to find some JV and promotional partners, but I'm running into a major problem:

The field I'm in (writing instruction) seems bereft of folks who really understand internet marketing. As a result, I'm not having much success finding folks to partner with. I've been sending e-mails in which I explain what I bring to the table (a list w/44,000+ subscribers, an active website, more than 2500 Twitter followers and a terrific online reputation that goes back to 1995) but all I hear in return is silence.

What's the best way to get their attention and explain this to them in a way that makes them feel comfortable with the concept of teaming up? Snail mail proposals? Phone calls?

Any thoughts will be most appreciated.

Thanks....

[Terry Crim]

Hi Jon,

What is it that you are wanting to propose?

What is it that you are currently telling them?

In your situation, you should not be chasing anyone. Most people do not understand marketing, that is where you have to come in and market to them in a way that draws their attention to your proposal. The big thing with any JV is the WIFT (What is in it for THEM), define that in a way that makes them want to come to you and the problems of finding JV's will be over.


Thanks,

- Terry

[jonb]

Thanks Terry.

I do suggest things such as solo mailings, trading trial offers as bonuses for our respective customers and so on. But, I think what I'm running up against is a general attitude in the writing field that it's somehow bad form to actively try to make money. Somehow, marketing too aggressively is seen as "something that's not done." That's the crux of my issue -- how do I make people who are genetically inclined to feel uncomfortable blowing their own horns see the value of ramping things up a bit?

[MichaelHiles]

Do you find that writers can be more cynical by nature? The writing forums I've frequented seem to be teeming with bitter, angst-filled souls who might not be "marketing material".

[jonb]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Do you find that writers can be more cynical by nature? The writing forums I've frequented seem to be teeming with bitter, angst-filled souls who might not be "marketing material".

Well, maybe. We work more with beginners, and we train them to be positive and action-oriented, so our customers are actually a rather joyful lot. But, yeah, there's plenty of what you're talking about out there and we avoid that like the plague. However, you probably hit on part of my problem -- other would-be marketers are afraid of running afoul of those folks and getting blasted as "sellouts" for -- horror of horrors -- wanting to make a few dollars.

So how do I convince them otherwise?

[Martin Luxton]

Jon,

There's an interesting anecdote in Kiyosaki's Rich Dad, Poor Dad where a lady journalist with writing talent asked him for advice on writing a bestseller and, as she was already a talented writer, he suggested studying copywriting and marketing . She was horrified. He also pointed out that he was a "best-selling" author, not a "best-writing" one.

Sadly, 'artistic' people often find the sordid side of writing repulsive.

I had similar experiences myself with people in the theatre.

Martin

[MichaelHiles]

Originally Posted by jonb

Well, maybe. We work more with beginners, and we train them to be positive and action-oriented, so our customers are actually a rather joyful lot. But, yeah, there's plenty of what you're talking about out there and we avoid that like the plague. However, you probably hit on part of my problem -- other would-be marketers are afraid of running afoul of those folks and getting blasted as "sellouts" for -- horror of horrors -- wanting to make a few dollars.

So how do I convince them otherwise?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that question. I was simply reflecting upon my own experience with large groups of writers.

Snide, cynical, jealous, arrogant, and just not quite as smart as they think they are.

They see themselves as intellectual giants. Many do have a command of the written word, but even that seems to be in short supply these days. A greater number of them have deluded themselves into believing they are monster academics.

Maybe they think they are above "instruction", at least in any setting with other humans involved. Maybe it's because their imaginations propel them much farther beyond their realities - particularly financial realities. Most of the writers I know are broke as a joke.

A local publishing house, Writer's Books (Writer's Digest Magazine) does tremendous sales in this market with their how-to books and workshops. I know that a subset of writers do actually attend workshops. I've never been to one, so I can't reflect on the demographic of people who attend these.

Again, these are just my impressions from hanging around writer communities.

[jonb]

Michael,

The folks you've run up against are a (very vocal) minority. Most working writers are serious, practical and hard-working types who are actually quite fun to hang with. It's the handful of wannabes that generate the impression you have. If you were to go to a good writers conference, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the caliber of people you'd meet.

The bullhorn of the internet tends to distort that, alas.

[Adaptive]

Jon, what kind of deal are you trying to set up?

If you are offering to sell someone else's product online, how about simply mentioning that you're an Internet marketing expert and you'd like to help increase sales and split the profits. You can provide additional leads and/or sales, you get paid for each lead or sale you bring in. All this doesn't take anything away from whatever marketing and sales techniques are already being used.

There's a 30 second pitch that gets you into a "how does that work?" conversation, or gets you out of a go-nowhere conversation and on to the next prospect.

If you get into "how does that work?" you can say that you will provide resources such as web sites, email lists, Twitter, sales letters and more. All you need from the other side is a copy of all their current ads, and an hour or two to interview them to make sure your online advertising includes all the relevant facts.

Regards,
Allen

[jonb]

thanks, Allen. Good advice -- particularly in how I can point out my IM knowledge above and beyond the writing stuff.

Right now, what I'd really like to do is connect with two or three smart business folks in the writing instruction field to build ongoing relationships with, where we can bounce ideas off one another, test cross-promotions, team up for publicity generating promos (surveys, contests, etc.) and so on. But you may be right -- that just might not work without me doing some education first. So, I'm sensing that the way to go is to get some folks on the phone, try to explain the benefits of working together and staying at it until I find my group of long term partners.

[cosmokid]

Yeah, writers in general can be the biggest bunch of anti-money losers you can find --- and I speak as someone who worked full-time as a freelance writer for a long time! It's mostly because it tends to be more of an "artsy" field that's more right-brained, less linear and money-oriented.

However, there ARE some very sharp people who have positioned themselves in that market, and if you can partner with some of them you can do very well.

Try the owners of the popular writing forums like Writers Weekly, Absolute Write, Writer.net, and other freelance writing forums. See if you can get access to their lists if they have them or maybe post an ad on their websites.

Another way to go is to move away from marketing to writers and market to people in the broader business success category. There are so many approaches here. Maybe you can promote something teaching people how to create resumes or cover letters. Maybe you can promote the larger skill of writing within a business and money making context, to active lists which have business-oriented people on them.

I'd approach webmasters in the larger business success field - there are tons of lucrative lists out there- and even if they don't want to do a JV, consider buying ads in their newsletters. You'll get a much better response I think.

Jennifer

[jonb]

Excellent advice, Jennifer! I sometimes burrow myself so deeply in my niche that I don't see the bigger picture. You've given me lots to work with.

And, like Michael, you've been hanging out with the wrong writers! The successful folks we know and work with "get it" completely. It's the "never will be's" that dominate the conversation, unfortunately.

[BrianMcLeod]

Jon,

Perhaps it would make more sense to those you're reaching out to if you contextualized what you're wanting to do in more a traditional "publisher" role -- since it's clearly a predominant motivation of most writers to land some kind of publishing deal.

In other words, minimize the Internet Marketing lingo and positioning, and reframe the discussion positioning yourself more as an expert "online publisher" that "signs" them to a deal.

I'm not completely sure I understand who you're trying to partner with - your membership community of writers, other competitors in your market, authority sites, etc. I'm just thinking out loud... but the path of least resistance may be more congruency with whatever (mistaken) goalpost they're already mentally wishing for.

Yours is an interesting situation I'd like to know more about. Please keep us posted.

Best,

Brian

[jonb]

Originally Posted by LoudMac

Jon,


I'm not completely sure I understand who you're trying to partner with - your membership community of writers, other competitors in your market, authority sites, etc.

Hi Brian,

I'm looking to partner with other companies that offer products and services for writers -- sellers of info products, online or offline instruction providers, publishing-related services and so on. Essentially, companies that share the same prospect pool: aspiring writers. Those companies are out there and they're not hard to identify -- I can find them advertising in every issue of Writer's Digest. It's just that I now realize that I have the job of bringing them up to speed on why they should partner with me (and each other for that matter) for online promotions. I think I've got some good direction in this thread to get me started.


BTW, if any Warriors want to talk about some promotional ideas, I'm all ears. A smart marketer could do great with our affiliate program creating mini-sites, using PPC and such as there's really no competition. PM me if you're interested.....

[Joseph Ratliff]

Originally Posted by jonb

I'm trying to find some JV and promotional partners, but I'm running into a major problem:

The field I'm in (writing instruction) seems bereft of folks who really understand internet marketing. As a result, I'm not having much success finding folks to partner with. I've been sending e-mails in which I explain what I bring to the table (a list w/44,000+ subscribers, an active website, more than 2500 Twitter followers and a terrific online reputation that goes back to 1995) but all I hear in return is silence.

What's the best way to get their attention and explain this to them in a way that makes them feel comfortable with the concept of teaming up? Snail mail proposals? Phone calls?

Any thoughts will be most appreciated.

Thanks....

By nature, humans will typically look for a "shortcut" to success.

Since (if) these writers truly don't understand internet marketing (maybe they don't want to)...your presentation to them (in whatever media form) has to resonate with their inner desires to perhaps achieve the "writer's lifestyle".

For example...it's quite possible that you could show them how joint ventures are a shortcut to success with minimal to no risk whatsoever...and no additional work on their part at first.

In your original post...you're showing us a lot of "marketing features"...but I don't see where you're conveying the "lifestyle benefits to the writers".

Hope that helps a little.

[Craig Fenton]

Hi Jon:

Please send me a private message I am an author, writer, public-speaker and will have a project soon, maybe we can help each other.

I never conduct myself as being better than anyone.

Good luck and enjoy the weekend.

[KillerDM]

Hi,

This is my post to these forums. Feel free to lay the smackdown on this idea, but could you write a short report that addresses the chief problem or pain point your potential JVs have (perhaps it's selling more books or getting more writing gigs) and position the solution to be what you're offering?

Then, setup a quick website that offers the report in exchange for an email address.

Next, contact your desired JVs, or the places they visit online, and offer your free report URL.

My thinking is that those who request the report are most likely to be receptive to your follow up JV offers/ideas, saving you time and rejection.

Also, the report would make them more receptive to your ideas. It would pre-sell your expertise, as well, which might be a stumbling block you might not be aware of ("who is this guy trying to get his chocolate in my marketing peanut butter?").

Even if you just get a couple responses, you could follow up with them to form your JVs, make them successful, and update the report with one or more glowing case studies. Send news of the updated report back to your list, and see if more interested parties come forward.

I just re-read Kevin Kelly's 1000 True Fans article recently. It's a great example of approaching the topic of marketing in a digestible, friendly, and motivational way to an audience (artists) who might resent The Man and His Methods. Maybe it's something to model with your crowd?

Cheers,
Johnn

[JayMachado]

Have you ever thought about hosting teleseminars? There's something about them that really helps people get through their blocks. If you could share stories about marketing and copywriting and build a relationship with people in your field, they might be willing to step out of their comfort zone when they realize it's not as scary as they once thought.

You could send out invites to your teleseminars through Twitter - with the chance that they could go viral and you could start attracting, rather than chasing, people who will be best to work with.

There's a higher perceived value with teleseminars and higher potential for positive influence too. Why not try it out?

[Justin Mandel]

I would start by meeting them on common ground. What do you have in common with them?

After explaining that go on and tell them what you are trying to accomplish.

If you are sincere and get accross how you might be able to benefit each other then you have more of a chance IMHO to make a connection and see if a future.JV is possible.

All of what you mentioned in your first post is useless if you are addressing someone who does not think like a marketer.

[Richard N Adams]

How are you approaching the potential jv partners? In many niches (and indeed many countries) the standard "in your face", internet marketing style pitch really turns people off. They're not online to make money as much as indulge in a hobby or passion.

In the writing industry my assumption, right or wrong, is that a writers main aim is to get published. And to derive acclaim for their work as a result. The money aspect just happens as a side issue.

So, my question again is how you are apporaching your potential parners? It sounds like you're talking sales and profits while they're thinking different things. Perhaps you're not speaking their language.

I would suggest trying a different tack. Go in with the goal of helping them to help their list/visitors/forum members to be better writers. Make the money a non-issue. Offer them a free copy of yourt product to assess and mention how if they like it you'd love it if they'd consider mentioning it to their contacts. Only if they sound interested can you "just by the way" mention that they can earn a commission if they like.

Give it a try and let us know how you get on.

All the best,
Richard