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Unread 24th January 2013, 07:46 AM   #1
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Default Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

What I mean is, I've purchased ebooks about sales funnels and there is always a "cheat sheet" and there is a mind-map layout. It looks more like a maze.

The process goes like this: If the they don't buy this, they'll get transferred to this, it they buy this, they'll get offered this, if they pass on that, they'll get a downsale on this, if the buy that, they'll get a offer for this.......and on and on.


Is this called "Jump through hoops" marketing?


I wonder if it's a ego trip more than anything. Or is it, everyone else is doing it, so it must be working, so I'll follow along and do it too, even if it doesn't make any sense.


What are your thoughts?

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Unread 24th January 2013, 07:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Sounds like you are explaining a transaction process and not a sales funnel.

A sales funnel is more of a business model.
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Unread 24th January 2013, 07:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

It's the latest fad in Internet Marketing. I have to agree with you on it being annoying. I have seen it a lot here on the Warrior forum with many of the latest WSOs released.

Not to hijack your thread, but what I also find annoying are all the OTOs. It's ridiculous sometimes and let's not forget all of the worthless bonuses too and last but not least, all of the affiliates / JVs jumping on the same offers and filling your inbox with the exact same copy from the product developer's swipe files for the offers.

Jeez! At least take a minute to put your own spin on the swipe email or better yet actually, heaven forbid, give a real review of the product.
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Unread 24th January 2013, 08:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

The idea is very simple: keep offering them more products if they are agreeing to buy them. If they are willing to spend more money with you, then let them. Once they say no, you stop offering (well, there's a last ditch downsell tossed in).

When Launch Tree came out, they had several case studies showing conversion rates at the various points/steps of this -and it was very compelling.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 08:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Just seems like basic marketing to me...nothing new.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 08:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

My question to you will be: Do you think McDonald's are getting carried away with asking questions like "Would you like to upgrade a set meal?", "How about fries to go with it?", etc.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 09:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I think that people in the IM space are more used to seeing this process because we probably (no stats to back up this statement!) buy more than the average Joe. The reason it's used is because it works. The great thing is that there is a button at the bottom that says "no thanks". This transaction process is an accelerated sales funnel.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 02:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I think many misinterpret the process of a funnel. If your customer feels like a ping pong ball or a pincushion - you aren't doing it right.

A funnel should be a smooth transition from one purchase to a related offer or info - not a barrage of "buy this" links or sending people on your list to related list signup pages day after day.

If it begins to look like a convoluted sales scheme - you lose.

The purpose of a funnel is to effortlessly channel something to where you want it to go. It can easily be overdone and many IMers do that.


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Unread 24th January 2013, 02:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

"TPSF" - The Perfect Sales Funnel

.... That is what I've seen it called recently on a webinar.
An elaborate set of sales pages and OTO's. Supposedly,
somewhere, someone did a huge market test and found that
TPSF sqeezed the most money out of a prospective customers,
or better put, A higher EPC.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 02:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Would you like to try our new CBO?
No? Ok, would you like fries with that?
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Unread 24th January 2013, 03:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin Lyle View Post
"TPSF" - The Perfect Sales Funnel

.... That is what I've seen it called recently on a webinar.
An elaborate set of sales pages and OTO's. Supposedly,
somewhere, someone did a huge market test and found that
TPSF sqeezed the most money out of a prospective customers,
or better put, A higher EPC.
Let me guess...

At some point in the webinar was an offer to either teach how to build this so-called 'perfect sales funnel', build it for people for a price, or both.

It's true that sales funnels are getting more sophisticated, but 'sophisticated' and 'complex' aren't necessarily the same thing. And 'earnings per click' is a short term metric suited to a one-time process, as opposed to 'lifetime value of a customer', which is more important to me.

I'm sure someone will come back and say you can have both. Some can, but it takes more skill than most can bring to bear...

Get this one thing right and it will be like you are the only one they are listening to. Probably because you will be the only one they are listening to.

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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

John I have to agree with you. Many marketers are only looking at the short term. Make a killing today and to hell with the customer. They just want the maximum bang today. They forget that over the long term more could be made if the customer trusts and follows you long term.

I guess some believe in one in the hand beats 2 in the bush. But piss off enough people and guess where you can stick that funnel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post
Let me guess...

At some point in the webinar was an offer to either teach how to build this so-called 'perfect sales funnel', build it for people for a price, or both.

It's true that sales funnels are getting more sophisticated, but 'sophisticated' and 'complex' aren't necessarily the same thing. And 'earnings per click' is a short term metric suited to a one-time process, as opposed to 'lifetime value of a customer', which is more important to me.

I'm sure someone will come back and say you can have both. Some can, but it takes more skill than most can bring to bear...
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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I do believe in offering your customer an extra package if they bought the last one... ahem (this is called marketing)

i find it fascinating that some marketers complain about being marketed to lol

we are marketers and we market our products, skills and services

if you went into a bike shop and purchased a bicycle would you complain if the guy in the store said to you "would you like to include a full set of protective clothing with your order sir" before you got to the checkout?

just think how many times this happens in stores, it happens all the time but we just never think about it

i will admit that some people online do go over the top and have like 9 exit pop ups etc, i mean that is pretty insane but at the end of the day if it's working for them then that's cool

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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Paul the point I was making is, we as Internet Marketers tell people all of the time to follow one thing until it is successful before pursuing something else, then we turn right around and offer them some loosely related or unrelated BONUS product, that ultimately distracts the customer from the main product. Or worse we hand them off to our JV partner who is now marking another shinny object for the optin.

Then we berate them for the "Shinny Object" syndrome but we create this problem and people wonder why they can't get anywhere in IM and ultimately give up and thus we lose a customer.

Again sacrificing the long term benefits for the short term gain. I think many marketers are too greedy to accept they are actually killing the goose that lays the golden eggs and are only focused on the eggs and to hell with the goose.


Quote:
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I do believe in offering your customer an extra package if they bought the last one... ahem (this is called marketing)

i find it fascinating that some marketers complain about being marketed to lol

we are marketers and we market our products, skills and services

if you went into a bike shop and purchased a bicycle would you complain if the guy in the store said to you "would you like to include a full set of protective clothing with your order sir" before you got to the checkout?

just think how many times this happens in stores, it happens all the time but we just never think about it

i will admit that some people online do go over the top and have like 9 exit pop ups etc, i mean that is pretty insane but at the end of the day if it's working for them then that's cool
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Unread 24th January 2013, 04:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

yeah that's cool :-)

i was mainly talking about some other marketers that i have come across that really complain when they buy a product off another marketer and complain that they are sent to an upsell :-)

i know some people do get carried away though with their funnels ha!


Quote:
Originally Posted by buffnstuff View Post
Paul the point I was making is, we as Internet Marketers tell people all of the time to follow one thing until it is successful before pursuing something else, then we turn right around and offer them some loosely related or unrelated BONUS product, that ultimately distracts the customer from the main product. Or worse we hand them off to our JV partner who is now marking another shinny object for the optin.

Then we berate them for the "Shinny Object" syndrome but we create this problem and people wonder why they can't get anywhere in IM and ultimately give up and thus we lose a customer.

Again sacrificing the long term benefits for the short term gain. I think many marketers are too greedy to accept they are actually killing the goose that lays the golden eggs and are only focused on the eggs and to hell with the goose.

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Unread 25th January 2013, 07:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul nicholls View Post
yeah that's cool :-)

i was mainly talking about some other marketers that i have come across that really complain when they buy a product off another marketer and complain that they are sent to an upsell :-)

i know some people do get carried away though with their funnels ha!
Using your bike shop analogy, suppose you bought the bike and then the shop owner bolted the door and told you you couldn't leave with the bike until he was done offering you more stuff?

Get this one thing right and it will be like you are the only one they are listening to. Probably because you will be the only one they are listening to.

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Unread 25th January 2013, 07:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Well, it does work... Almost every vendor does it

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Unread 25th January 2013, 08:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

The concept of sales funnels is a bit annoying but at times you may find what you may have been looking for. In case you don't want to buy you can always say no thanks.



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Unread 25th January 2013, 08:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

My take on this new sales funnel is just be upfront about your offers. Many WSO's that I have seen lately the product creator seems to want to hold you in suspense and not reveal their OTO's in their sales copy and then their sales funnel seems more like a trap and a maze.

Once you purchase the original offer then here's something else to buy and if you don't then you will have to do all this work by hand but with the new wiz bang gizmo software it automates the process. So you don't want to do all the tedious work by hand do you? For just $X you buy the wiz bang gizmo software.

Now you're thinking ok, I'm done with the OTO's, but wait, not so fast...The wiz bang gizmo software only does XYZ, if you don't want to manually have to do all that other stuff manually you need wiz bang gizmo on steroids. So now you get wiz bang gizmo on steroids because who wants to do all that other XYZ stuff manually. So you buy OTO2 for even more $$$.

Now you're for sure your done and heading to checkout...But not so fast there Spanky... No, no, no...Now that you have the original product, plus upsell 1 and upsell 2, now if you want to know how to put all this stuff together and really make it work, you need our personal one on one Skype group membership for a monthly fee of $XX / month. Oh and don't forget to sign up for our webinar where we're going to try and sell some other crap loosly related to this offer so we can wring even more $$$ out of you under the ruse of an information packed webinar.

We all have seen it and some of us have done it. Then people have buyers remorse after all that nonsense when they realize they just purchased a whole bunch of stuff that they have no clue how to use and then they see the overwhelming volume of PDF's and videos and all the FREE bonuses and their heads are spinning and they realize that they would have to lock themselves away for at least a month to comprehend all the stuff they just bought and get overwhelmed.

Now you have the product creators and JV's wondering what went wrong and why is the refund rate so high? DUH!!! You just created your own mess.

I say why be sneaky? Present the customer with all the facts in the sale page and then letting them decide if they need and want all the OTO's. I don't know about you guys, but when I've experienced crap like the above scenario I feel like I've just been had and when I read a lot of the WSO threads I'm not alone.

I don't get the need to be sneaky with your sales funnel. Why not put it out there upfront? If they're good products then why wait and spring it on people during the buying process? I know I prefer to purchase the front end and choose the upsell products I see as necessary, rather than being made to feel like a sucker through all the upsells, down sells, cross sells etc. The maze and trap approach IMHO SUCKS!

All of you who want to come back with these sales statistics telling me how much better this process works show me the stats on a more open process as I describe as well. My thoughts on statistics are, Figures don't lie, but liars can figure.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 09:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNewGuy2010 View Post
What I mean is, I've purchased ebooks about sales funnels and there is always a "cheat sheet" and there is a mind-map layout. It looks more like a maze.

The process goes like this: If the they don't buy this, they'll get transferred to this, it they buy this, they'll get offered this, if they pass on that, they'll get a downsale on this, if the buy that, they'll get a offer for this.......and on and on.


Is this called "Jump through hoops" marketing?


I wonder if it's a ego trip more than anything. Or is it, everyone else is doing it, so it must be working, so I'll follow along and do it too, even if it doesn't make any sense.


What are your thoughts?
Of course some marketers are getting carried away with their sales funnels. There are some out there that implement a sales funnel and they don't really test their results. They see money come in and to them that means that it's working.

And of course, some are not. The bottomline for me is, who really cares?

While it's a good idea to watch what others are doing, what's more important is to test out your own sales funnels, obtain feedback from your customers, and focus on the overall customer experience and not just your conversions.

Also bear in mind that some marketers out there do a lot of testing and they have very intriticate funnels for a reason. Those are usually very seamless because they know what they're doing. The ones that don't do any real testing is usually pretty obvious because they aren't seamless.

I was in a sales funnel last week where the guy set up 6-7 different pop-ups and their stupid script asked me several times if I REALLY wanted to leave his website. I'm never doing business with that guy, unless he cleans up his act.

I'd say in some cases it's not an ego trip, but more likely it's just bad marketing.

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Unread 25th January 2013, 10:25 AM   #21
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

In regards to most big product launches, the sales funnel has been tested, tweaked, optimised, tested, tweaked and then optimised again before the "general public" see it.

Thus, when you purchase the product, the sales funnel you see is the one that converted the best. Basic marketing, if you have something that converts higher than the other, that contains several up-sells, downsells and exit scripts you'd be stupid not to use it, since the test results have already confirmed that it converts.

In regards the upsell process, the up-sells (usually) are either a continuation of the main process, further work on the main process, or some sort of way to make your life easier by following the method you've just purchased such as software.

Now, if we have two upsells priced at $197 and $147 with the original product costing $49, that gives us a total of $393.

If instead of offering the upsells, we create a product that includes the main product and both upsells, we will then have to price it at $393 - which for many buyers is priced to high, not to mention if the buyer see's that price they will most likely run a mile (unless of course your selling via a webinar and so on).

So to sum up - the upsells are added as a way of getting the main product out there to the public, with two upsells aimed at people who are either A) more serious or B) want results quicker/further training from the upsells.

Plus as others have already said, upsells help create a higher EPC which is what the product creator wants so that he can get several JV partners and affiliates based on his high EPC. Who would want to work with someone who has a 0.50 EPC and so on? That means the sales funnel is not converting how it should be.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 10:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Thank you Josh for that explanation and I agree it does sound reasonable until you're stuck in a lousy sales funnel. But IMHO it is still ambush marketing. I don't understand why marketers can't just be upfront in their sales copy with the OTO's as they are with the front end product?

You see these mile long sales pages for the front end products, with usually no mention of OTO's. Then after purchasing the front end product, the customer is made to feel like they MUST purchase these OTO's if they want to get the full benefit from the front end offer.

I have also been seeing where they may gloss over information about having an OTO in their FAQ's but don't get into very much, if any detail. It's usually exposed by someone in the sales thread after purchases are made by those who got in early, sometimes with negative results for the original offer. Potentially killing sales.

So I have to ask...What was the point of keeping the Upsells, down sells and all the other hocus-pocus such a big secret when it will only come to light eventually? Or you'll have someone who goes to the JV site and rats out the OTO's. It just seems like a stupid game to me and makes the product creator look less than honest, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Monroe View Post
In regards to most big product launches, the sales funnel has been tested, tweaked, optimised, tested, tweaked and then optimised again before the "general public" see it.

Thus, when you purchase the product, the sales funnel you see is the one that converted the best. Basic marketing, if you have something that converts higher than the other, that contains several up-sells, downsells and exit scripts you'd be stupid not to use it, since the test results have already confirmed that it converts.

In regards the upsell process, the up-sells (usually) are either a continuation of the main process, further work on the main process, or some sort of way to make your life easier by following the method you've just purchased such as software.

Now, if we have two upsells priced at $197 and $147 with the original product costing $49, that gives us a total of $393.

If instead of offering the upsells, we create a product that includes the main product and both upsells, we will then have to price it at $393 - which for many buyers is priced to high, not to mention if the buyer see's that price they will most likely run a mile (unless of course your selling via a webinar and so on).

So to sum up - the upsells are added as a way of getting the main product out there to the public, with two upsells aimed at people who are either A) more serious or B) want results quicker/further training from the upsells.

Plus as others have already said, upsells help create a higher EPC which is what the product creator wants so that he can get several JV partners and affiliates based on his high EPC. Who would want to work with someone who has a 0.50 EPC and so on? That means the sales funnel is not converting how it should be.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 10:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

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Thank you Josh for that explanation and I agree it does sound reasonable until you're stuck in a lousy sales funnel. But IMHO it is still ambush marketing. I don't understand why marketers can't just be upfront in their sales copy with the OTO's as they are with the front end product?

You see these mile long sales pages for the front end products, with usually no mention of OTO's. Then after purchasing the front end product, the customer is made to feel like they MUST purchase these OTO's if they want to get the full benefit from the front end offer.

I have also been seeing where they may gloss over information about having an OTO in their FAQ's but don't get into very much, if any detail. It's usually exposed by someone in the sales thread after purchases are made by those who got in early, sometimes with negative results for the original offer. Potentially killing sales.

So I have to ask...What was the point of keeping the Upsells, down sells and all the other hocus-pocus such a big secret when it will only come to light eventually? Or you'll have someone who goes to the JV site and rats out the OTO's. It just seems like a stupid game to me and makes the product creator look less than honest, IMHO.
I hear ya, some products do include the prices for everything involved in the sales pitch, but those people are in the minority.

In my opinion, the basic product should ALWAYS be enough to succeed, and then the up-sells should be offered to enhance your use of the product.

Not all marketers do this however.

Also, from what I've heard, when the prices for OTOs are included in the sales pitch it scares away the people who are expecting to pay however much the product costs, and that's it - no further investment needed (which would be great, however it doesn't work like this most of the time).

Also, as I've said above, if they remove the OTOs, they have to make the initial product price higher, your looking at least three figures for the course, and marketers know A)a lot of buyers dont have that kinda money laying around, B)like I said, it scares away potential buyers.

With that being said, buyers now are more informed than ever, and will do what you said above (research the costs involved first) but again, we have to remember a lot of marketers are aiming at the absolute beginners and newbies to the industry (or to making money online) thus the hypey sales pitch gets them to bite, and then they enter the sales funnel.

What I always say to people is if your buying a product, EXPECT to go through the up-sell process, but always remember - the 'basic' product should ALWAYS be enough to succeed.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 11:06 AM   #24
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Very simple, sales funnels and pathways are big sources of money if you do them right.

Lets look at this made up but possible example:

10% purchase your $9.99 product
4% purchase an upsell of $19.99
than out of those who purchase 1% purchase yet another product for $19.99
those that do not purchase the first upsell, 3% purchase a downsell of $4.99

If you send 1000 visitors to your page with just the first product you make: $999
With the same 1000 visitors and your additional funnel you make: 999 + 79.96 + 14.97 which is ~$95 more! So its like 9-10% more money for you! That is a big difference for your ROI! Plus some people are doing this very very well, far surpassing my example, just FYI!
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Unread 25th January 2013, 11:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Brent, my theory on a good marketing strategy, and one that I think may work and will soon test on my own projects, is a sales page about the front end product. The sales page will let the customers know that the front end product will do everything that is advertised on that initial offer and doesn't require the OTO to function as advertised.

Then add the OTO's in the sales copy as well making note that the OTO is not required to achieve the outcome, but explain how the OTO can offer additional enhancement, benefits and or features that the original offer doesn't provide and let the customer make an educated buying decision, rather than using the ambush upsell / down sell tactics I see favored by so many other marketers.

Why would you want to entice a customer to spend more than they expected and then to get buyer's remorse days later and refund because they felt pressured to buy the upsells? How does that benefit the marketer, JV or customer? You are creating ill will from all involved. Not to mention it could cause the buyer to opt out of the marketer's list on top of that and a lost customer for good.

Why does it seem ethics and marketing seem to be opposing forces these days?

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Originally Posted by brentb View Post
Very simple, sales funnels and pathways are big sources of money if you do them right.

Lets look at this made up but possible example:

10% purchase your $9.99 product
4% purchase an upsell of $19.99
than out of those who purchase 1% purchase yet another product for $19.99
those that do not purchase the first upsell, 3% purchase a downsell of $4.99

If you send 1000 visitors to your page with just the first product you make: $999
With the same 1000 visitors and your additional funnel you make: 999 + 79.96 + 14.97 which is ~$95 more! So its like 9-10% more money for you! That is a big difference for your ROI! Plus some people are doing this very very well, far surpassing my example, just FYI!
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Unread 25th January 2013, 12:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Honestly for me the sales funnels work, but many people make it too complex. If you use only about a few levels of the funnel into your business, you will be fine.

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Unread 25th January 2013, 12:22 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I don't mind an OTO. But I bought a $7 report the other day. I had never read anything from this individual so I was intrigued about one statement made on the sales page. It was well worth the like $7.52 I paid for it. Taught me something worth much more that I had NO Knowledge of.

But he sent me through like 5 other different Upsales Downsales.......a little bit extreme.

Just my 2 cents..........

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Unread 25th January 2013, 12:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Joey, that is my point exactly. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to purchase just the initial offer and have the option to come back after having time to evaluate the front end product first and then you may see the value of the related products the marketer is offering?

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Originally Posted by Joey Starkey View Post
I don't mind an OTO. But I bought a $7 report the other day. I had never read anything from this individual so I was intrigued about one statement made on the sales page. It was well worth the like $7.52 I paid for it. Taught me something worth much more that I had NO Knowledge of.

But he sent me through like 5 other different Upsales Downsales.......a little bit extreme.

Just my 2 cents..........
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Unread 25th January 2013, 02:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

The way some marketers use the McDonalds example is:

1. Customer purchases and pays for burger

2. Customer must go to another room to wait for the burger

3. When customer thinks he is going to receive burger, he is asked "do you want fries with that"?

4. Customer says yes

5. Customer makes second payment

6. Customer must go to another room to wait for the fries

7. Burger gets cold

8. When customer thinks he is going to receive fries, he is asked "do you want soda with that"

9. Customer says yes

10. Customer makes third payment

11. Customer must go to another room to wait for the soda

12. Fries get cold too

13. Customer receives soda.

14. Customer eats the food, but never buys from the place again.

Personally, I much prefer "customize your order" pages where you tick a few boxes to add additional stuff to your order.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 02:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

EXCELLENT response. Thank you for your validation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjarne Eldhuset View Post
The way some marketers use the McDonalds example is:

1. Customer purchases and pays for burger

2. Customer must go to another room to wait for the burger

3. When customer thinks he is going to receive burger, he is asked "do you want fries with that"?

4. Customer says yes

5. Customer makes second payment

6. Customer must go to another room to wait for the fries

7. Burger gets cold

8. When customer thinks he is going to receive fries, he is asked "do you want soda with that"

9. Customer says yes

10. Customer makes third payment

11. Customer must go to another room to wait for the soda

12. Fries get cold too

13. Customer receives soda.

14. Customer eats the food, but never buys from the place again.

Personally, I much prefer "customize your order" pages where you tick a few boxes to add additional stuff to your order.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 02:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

What!? Marketers complaining about funnels, upsells, OTOs, etc? say it aint so!

There are good and bad ways to implement sales funnels, but if you're a marketers of any sort (online or offline) you MUST implement some sort of upsell process in your sales flow.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 02:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Very true, but why do it in ambush style? Why can't marketers lay it ALL out there and let the buyers choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post
What!? Marketers complaining about funnels, upsells, OTOs, etc? say it aint so!

There are good and bad ways to implement sales funnels, but if you're a marketers of any sort (online or offline) you MUST implement some sort of upsell process in your sales flow.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 02:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post
Of course some marketers are getting carried away with their sales funnels. There are some out there that implement a sales funnel and they don't really test their results. They see money come in and to them that means that it's working.

And of course, some are not. The bottomline for me is, who really cares?

While it's a good idea to watch what others are doing, what's more important is to test out your own sales funnels, obtain feedback from your customers, and focus on the overall customer experience and not just your conversions.

Also bear in mind that some marketers out there do a lot of testing and they have very intriticate funnels for a reason. Those are usually very seamless because they know what they're doing. The ones that don't do any real testing is usually pretty obvious because they aren't seamless.

I was in a sales funnel last week where the guy set up 6-7 different pop-ups and their stupid script asked me several times if I REALLY wanted to leave his website. I'm never doing business with that guy, unless he cleans up his act.

I'd say in some cases it's not an ego trip, but more likely it's just bad marketing.

RoD
Nicely summed up Rod.

Perhaps we should eliminate funnels and let our customers purchase elsewhere... lol.

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Unread 25th January 2013, 03:14 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

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Originally Posted by buffnstuff View Post
Brent, my theory on a good marketing strategy, and one that I think may work and will soon test on my own projects, is a sales page about the front end product. The sales page will let the customers know that the front end product will do everything that is advertised on that initial offer and doesn't require the OTO to function as advertised.

Then add the OTO's in the sales copy as well making note that the OTO is not required to achieve the outcome, but explain how the OTO can offer additional enhancement, benefits and or features that the original offer doesn't provide and let the customer make an educated buying decision, rather than using the ambush upsell / down sell tactics I see favored by so many other marketers.

Why would you want to entice a customer to spend more than they expected and then to get buyer's remorse days later and refund because they felt pressured to buy the upsells? How does that benefit the marketer, JV or customer? You are creating ill will from all involved. Not to mention it could cause the buyer to opt out of the marketer's list on top of that and a lost customer for good.

Why does it seem ethics and marketing seem to be opposing forces these days?
I think you miss the point, I don't think OTOs should be required and they should be good products that you actually feel good promoting. Funnels are not unethical, nor do they hurt your email list if you are doing them CORRECTLY.
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Unread 25th January 2013, 04:13 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

OTO's aren't a bad thing if they either add value to the initial offering or allow additional usability. Such as a plugin or a theme, where you have a single site license for $X.00 and unlimited sites you own $XX.00 or developer's license to use on clients or site flipping for $XXX.00.

See that gives the customer a choice and information to make an intelligent buying decision upfront, rather than hitting them with the ambush style sales funnel BS, where after they purchase thinking they are getting one thing and find out after they purchased the front end product that now if they want these other features, they have to shell out additional money. That's BS and that's the kind of games I'm seeing more often than not, lately with WSO's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentb View Post
I think you miss the point, I don't think OTOs should be required and they should be good products that you actually feel good promoting. Funnels are not unethical, nor do they hurt your email list if you are doing them CORRECTLY.
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Unread 27th January 2013, 01:03 AM   #36
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Perhaps people skeptical about funnels should go by a domain from godaddy or buy something from amazon.

Or you can just ask them how much extra money they make with their funnels.

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Unread 27th January 2013, 01:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Perhaps people skeptical about funnels should go by a domain from godaddy or buy something from amazon.

Or you can just ask them how much extra money they make with their funnels.

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Unread 27th January 2013, 02:49 AM   #38
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Marketers complaining about funnels, upsells, downsells, corsssells!!

And yes! When you buy a front end product, you will ask to purchase other products to earn real money and get commissions. It's a trick of marketing products.

Better find out something which have not any such type of funnel that make you confuse.

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Unread 27th January 2013, 04:15 AM   #39
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

The sales funnel is an art form in itself. Getting your buyers list and selling them a higher end product is how top marketers make top money.

As for OTO's.. I think every product should be aloud a max of 1 oto and it should not be needed to complete the course

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Unread 27th January 2013, 07:01 AM   #40
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

IMHO there is nothing wrong with this process, of selling or giving away a product in exchange for an optin to a mailing list. Most people understand this process and can opt out of a legitimate list at any time if they are dissatisfied with the marketer's methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footbag_man View Post
The sales funnel is an art form in itself. Getting your buyers list and selling them a higher end product is how top marketers make top money.

As for OTO's.. I think every product should be aloud a max of 1 oto and it should not be needed to complete the course
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Unread 10th February 2013, 06:53 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

OTO's and downsells are getting out of hand. I don't mind a OTO as long as it's really one time. One downsell afterwards is not excessive. However, these offers seem to go on forever. "When will I get to my freebie or product"? The download page is also getting ridiculous. Most know how it works. Can't afford the 1st price, what about cutting it in half, ok...lets trim out another 10 bucks. But wait - it continues...you can join or get it for 1 dollar.

This is not marketing it is excessive force down your throat tactics. When people go to MacDonald's they know what they want. Asking "do u want fries with that one time is ok" but it will get annoying if the cashier tells it to you 4-5-6 times.

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Unread 10th February 2013, 07:01 PM   #42
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I run a movie site and the "sales funnels" works great for me.
If a visitor doesn't sign up for the first movie affiliate service, then go to the next link and sign up for either one of Clickbank service. If they still don't sign up, they might go down the list to install a "torrent-like" software and if they STILL don't..I still get paid from their pageview. I don't see anything inherently bad about this practice.

Each site should always diversify their revenue streams and squeeze the most money out of each visitor.

Check out my new affiliate marketing blog.
http://www.affiliatemarketingninja.com

Also my movie site on sale
http://www.passplay.com
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Unread 10th February 2013, 07:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I've never understood why people on here and other places will complain about sales funnels, I'm also not sure why people feel it's 100% necessary to know what the one time offer/upsell/downsell is up front.

If you get to it and don't want it... just pass it. I don't even think about the backend offers as long as a front end offer salescopy grabs my attention, and if it turns out the backend offer is a MUST to use the front end offer... well then I just learned to avoid that specific seller because of their tactics.

Someone earlier brought up about marketers complaining about sales funnels, I think the honest thing is that the people complaining about them aren't necessarily marketers, just folks trying to make money who don't fully understand the concept of marketing who happen to be on an "internet marketing" forum to fuel their need for making money.

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Unread 10th February 2013, 11:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

are You Sure You Want To Leave This Page?

CANCEL - STAY ON THIS PAGE

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Unread 11th February 2013, 02:52 AM   #45
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I believe it's all about how "sharp" your salesprocess is. A good marketer/salesperson will know that not all the people that come to his/her website will respond the same way. So when you have different ways to convert different types of people your sales conversions will increase.

If your salesprocess can fly without all that sophistication that's fantastic but chances are if you just throw traffic at a site not much of it will convert and your site will eventually crash & burn.
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Unread 11th February 2013, 02:58 AM   #46
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

Reality is that no one knows what your customer wants. Yes they may have visited your site, but you may not be offering what they really want, so the funnel as we call it should reach further than just upsells and downsells... how about follow up emails recommending other products???

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Unread 11th February 2013, 03:02 AM   #47
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

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Originally Posted by Joseph Then View Post
My question to you will be: Do you think McDonald's are getting carried away with asking questions like "Would you like to upgrade a set meal?", "How about fries to go with it?", etc.
There's a bit of a difference here. McDonald's is good at upsales and cross sales, but they don't pester you. If McDonald's was like Internet marketing, then this is what would happen if you said yes:

-Do you want an ice cream with that too?
-What about a larger fry?
-We offer email discounts, would you care to give us your email address?
-I assume you want to try our new burger.
-Did you know that McDonald's offers kids' meals? I'll tack that onto your order at a recurring monthly rate.

Or, if you say that you don't want an upgrade or fries:

-Well, we have smaller fry options.
-You can always buy from our dollar menu.
-Please reconsider, because 1 in every 100 adults is malnourished, and you need the calories.
-Did you know that fat leads to happiness? It's all in the dopamine and serotonin. We'll offer you this smaller meal for now, but consider that you're just $2 away from actually being satisfied. That is, if you like being satisfied.

It would take 45 minutes to order a small burger. McDonald's can be a little pushy, but it's just a little. It's not a labyrinthine adventure of popup windows and convincing sales copy. That's why these models are so terrible and over the top.
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Unread 11th February 2013, 03:36 AM   #48
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

From where I'm sitting, this thread isn't really about sales funnels, (which is symptomatic of the underlying problem), so much as it is planning and implementing various business processes effectively.

If a purchasing experience left you with a bad taste in your mouth, then odds are it wasn't a carefully planned, tested process. It was most likely blindly cloned by someone who doesn't have any real clue about what he or she was doing in the first place.

It doesn't make it a bad concept - it simply demonstrates why copy and paste marketing methods don't ever work well unless serious effort is put into the research, analysis and planning stages to deploy them successfully. Most would-be marketers are confused about this as they expect it to work out of the box without any further effort on their part.

If anything, you should take a lesson from both the good and bad experiences you have as a consumer to help you in planning your own processes.

Rod and John both bring up excellent points about this, especially lifetime customer value. John's point about doing both well is dead on - it's not easy to strike the balance needed.
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Unread 11th February 2013, 04:09 AM   #49
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

I love the customers who complain about having upsells and one time offers yet if marketers didn't use them and you just had to pay the once price up front, you'd all say the product was way too overpriced.

Upsells and OTO's allow many customers that could never afford the whole product to still get a piece of the product at a reasonable price. No one is forcing you to buy any upsells or OTO's so if you don't want them, just ignore them.

Complaining about OTO's and upsells is like going to the shop to buy a carton of milk and complaining about all the other products they put in the shop. You don't need to buy them but you can if you want.

I agree some people go a little overboard with their upsells processes but again, you can always just say no. The only reason they keep doing them is because a large enough percentage of people say yes and buy them. So why wouldn't they keep on doing them?

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Unread 11th February 2013, 06:09 AM   #50
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Default Re: Do you think marketers are getting carried away with sales funnels?

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Originally Posted by TheNewGuy2010 View Post
What I mean is, I've purchased ebooks about sales funnels and there is always a "cheat sheet" and there is a mind-map layout. It looks more like a maze.

The process goes like this: If the they don't buy this, they'll get transferred to this, it they buy this, they'll get offered this, if they pass on that, they'll get a downsale on this, if the buy that, they'll get a offer for this.......and on and on.


Is this called "Jump through hoops" marketing?


I wonder if it's a ego trip more than anything. Or is it, everyone else is doing it, so it must be working, so I'll follow along and do it too, even if it doesn't make any sense.


What are your thoughts?
It's trying to get the marketing optimal, if it would make you money would you do it?
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