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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:08 PM   #1
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Default doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.

So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.

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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.

So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.
"Failure is the greatest teacher" I agree with whoever said this saying. It's possible to learn from your mistakes. What do you learn from doing nothing?

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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I think Thomas Edison would disagree.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." Thomas A. Edison, in reference to his light bulb experiments.
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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Well, of course you are right that to keep at something that is failing is not the way to go, but most things I start out doing fails at first until I keep at it and keep improving on whatever it is I'm tackling.
Being able to decide when you need to persist and learn more and when you need to give something up is itself a skill. But some people need to be grabbed by the shirt collar and told "Give it up!" for sure.

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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Learn by your mistakes. You will fail most of the time but there is a chance that you will strike gold. I think you should never just "take action" without proper research - that is a great way to fail.

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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

You are misinterpreting it...you don't want to continue to go 100 miles an hour down the wrong street...Edison tried 10001 different things. To keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results is not wise.

If you fail, learn, and tweak...you haven't really failed. If you fail and repeat...well, you failed.
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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.

So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.
Hello,

I couldn't resist this post. From experience, i think we have all gone through that phase of hitting a brick wall when things don't seem to be working. We immediately attach a negative feeling (pain of failure) to not having success and in stead of trying to act, we rather avoid it all together because we spend more time on thinking about failing, If all your doing is thinking about failure, of course your going to fail. Having negative thoughts, only fuels your subconscious and we set our selves up.

I went to an event where tony Robbins was speaking and he spoke a lot about mindset and the way we create these situations ourselves, Its better ultimately to make mistakes, and not procrastinate. Ive made many mistakes along the way, and i am thankful for that, as i know i now can avoid those or use them to my advantage.

Just remember PERSEVERANCE, " Steady persistence in a course of action, state, especially in spite of difficulties obstacles or discouragement" I read that every day.

So, those who think better not try as i know the outcome, tend to be the one that complain that nothing works and why is every one else well off, and has money so on, and so on.

Also, when we fail in a certain task, we can adapt and enhance the strategy and try something different,some times is can be pain stalking, trail and error. However when you hit success, Wouldn't you say it was all worth it?

Hope you enjoyed my post ! Now come on lets make money together!

Samuel
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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Diving into something without any knowledge is bad, but waiting until you know everything is even worse.

The quickest way to learn is through failure - and that means doing thing wrong from time to time. So I say get some knowledge and dive right in... but don't wait until you know 'everything'.

One of my favorite quote...

"Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm"
- Winston Churchill

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Unread 5th February 2013, 08:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I agree with everyone here. I don't think failure is bad (unless you're losing a ton of money or something).

As long as you learn from your mistakes and do better each time, then you're making progress and you'll succeed eventually.

If you do nothing, you have no chance of success
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Unread 5th February 2013, 09:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.
I don’t think that everyone could start something and get it right all the time. But to start and do it wrong will make you either learn fom your mistakes or quit. Not all will quit.

"If at first you don't succeed, try and try again"

Time To Take Action !!!

Last edited by GeroC; 5th February 2013 at 09:37 PM. Reason: changed wording
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Unread 5th February 2013, 09:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

You will be a BIG failure if you do the wrong things TWICE.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 12:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

While I cannot properly credit the author, a comment I have heard before that rings true here-

Experience is something you don't get until just AFTER you needed it...

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Unread 6th February 2013, 12:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

You learn by mistakes.

End of story.

A study was once done on the most powerful CEO's in America and the research showed that the large majority of them had all had their biggest success right after their biggest failure.

Don't be afraid to get things wrong. In a lot of cases you won't get to the right stuff until you get it wrong.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 12:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I like this saying
Don`t ask why just do it!

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Unread 6th February 2013, 12:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

ehh well You do learn a lot and get practical experience and learn much but at the same time when you are starting out you're inexperience it might be suggestable to take things stride by stride as oppose to all in.

That way when you do mess up, the mistake won't be that big but something you can learn from and readjust.

In general It depends...like a lot of things. Make wrong turns is common so no point beating yourself up about it. Insisting only on moving your ass when you can do things perfectly ends up as an excuse for procrastination and making mistake is effective learning (if approached correctly)

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Unread 6th February 2013, 01:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I will first research on the various methods that has proven to work for many people. Once I have decided on the one proven system that I want to follow, I will focus on the system and take massive action on it.

I feel it is important to invest money into getting a proven and reliable mentor that as that will really cuts down on the learning curve.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 01:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

You're right. The first time I overcooked a steak, I should have just become a vegetarian.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 01:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Not many people intentionally do the wrong thing. Shit happens, it's what you do about it and how you react that counts.


In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt

In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing. ~ Theodore Roosevelt "Trust, BUT VERIFY" ~ Ronald Reagan
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Unread 6th February 2013, 01:10 AM   #19
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I don't know why someone thinks like so...
This will prevent the person to learn anything. This will prevent the person to do anything creative. So, don't think like this.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 02:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Analysis paralysis leads to failure too. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take-Wayne Gretzky.

When you take action, but fail, you have a data set you can study and actions you can fix. You don't have this when you're not taking action.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 02:34 AM   #21
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

You'll never learn what works if you're so scared of failure that you're unable to move forward.

There are a lot of people out there who are capable of great things, but are held back by the fear of failure. You have to be willing to put yourself out there in order to learn the ropes. Fail once, learn from it and take whatever steps are necessary to ensure you don't fail in the same manner the next time around.

Kindle books, CPC Advertising, Teespring...I'm making a full time living doing a little bit of everything.


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Unread 6th February 2013, 02:34 AM   #22
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Doing something wrong is only effective, if you learn from it.

Doing something wrong over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity!

Doing something that is taking action in the right direction, but can be improved on I think is what people mean. By doing that you put yourself in a situation where you get to experience all the different aspects of internet marketing. It is then up to you what you look into and learn from.

If the alternative is to wait until you know everything. You'll never achieve success, because you never will know everything.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 02:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

how else will u learn if you don't try? It's all a theory until you tested. test until you find something that's working and then go with what's working.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 06:07 AM   #24
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Thomas View Post
What do you learn from doing nothing?
I learn a lot about what's on TV, and my bank account learned to decrease when I do nothing. Of course, sometimes it decreases when I do something - but at least I have some idea of where the money went. But most times it increases at some point when I do something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drewfioravanti View Post
To keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results is not wise.
Actually, that is the definition of insanity.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 07:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Another of those sayings: "The person who never made a mistake never made anything."
True, I s'pose.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 07:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Doing something wrong, do you mean something that is un-ethical? No then don't do.
But if you mean making mistakes, then it is okay.

Because without doing you will never know for sure.

It takes same effort to success or failure, so you have to learn, keep failing and then succeed.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 07:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Yeah sorry your comment is way off. You don't just get to learn something the first time. A baby trying to walk pretty much sums up the grown-ups attempts to succeed. If you know nothing about something you want to succeed at.... How could you ever take the right action the first time. Failure is learning. Not understanding that or spreading the belief that you should not fail if you want to succeed is a great way to screw a lot of people over. The key is learning from your mistakes.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 07:36 AM   #28
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I doubt that I would have ever learned much if I hadn't tried and failed. This kind of thinking keeps people from taking action for fear of "doing it wrong".

Do it until you get it right.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 08:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I just started looking into IM a few weeks ago and I can tell you that the information overload brought me to a standstill. It wasn't even fear of failure that caused me to do nothing, it was not knowing where/how to start.

I sat down and laid out a basic long-term battle plan and that's made moving forward easier. I know next to nothing about IM so in addition to slowly implementing my plan, I try to learn one new thing everyday, even if it's just looking up one of the kajillion acronyms or researching the IM specific jargon.

I'm not planning to fail, but I'm not afraid of it either. To me, the only failure in life is not trying.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 08:13 AM   #30
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShifted View Post
You're right. The first time I overcooked a steak, I should have just become a vegetarian.
I started to tell you to bite your tongue...

Then I said to myself, "Whoops, meat again."

Get this one thing right and it will be like you are the only one they are listening to. Probably because you will be the only one they are listening to.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 10:47 AM   #31
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself."
- Eleanor Roosevelt

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Unread 6th February 2013, 10:52 AM   #32
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

How else are you going to learn anything if you do not do something to learn from your mistakes.

It is like when you were a child and touched a hot pot! You learn not to touch a hot pot from your mistake.
The only way to learn in life is by doing it and failing and learning from your mistakes.
Even people like Donald Trump and Richard Bronson both millionaire and a billionaire they say it all the time if they quit the first time they failed at something they would never be where they are today from the learning experience from failing first.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 10:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all.
sometimes its good advice, sometimes its not.

It wouldn't be good advice with brain surgery, for example.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 09:12 PM   #34
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Post number 34 is saying exactly what I am meaning...when you take action, you look before you leap. Important things need to be done correctly.

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Unread 6th February 2013, 10:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I think you're just not comprehending what they are trying to teach you..

You see the problem is that most people are procastinators and habitual excuse makers so with that said..They don't take action..

And really taking action is where it's at, so what they're trying to teach you with that saying is to take action even if you screw things up because even if so you will be light years ahead of the procastinators..

So be an action taker and stop over thinking things to the point where nothing is done..

Alright bro Later..

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Unread 6th February 2013, 10:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success.
That's the misinterpretation of the argument, the argument is making an assumption based on empirical knowledge that the purpose of trying is to succeed. Your interpretation make it sound as if the subject is incapable of identifying and rectifying the errors, and will repeat them endlessly without ever finding the correct way.

In other words, Trying and failing is better than not trying at all.
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Unread 6th February 2013, 11:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Agree... But, doing something wrong you're still gaining experience, as to doing nothing at all, you're learning nothing. You don't have to get it right the 1st time, just get it going

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Unread 6th February 2013, 11:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.

So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.

Did you master riding a bicycle on the first try?

My point is, If a person isn't trying, they're not doing anything which guarantees zero success.



- yukon -


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Unread 7th February 2013, 08:42 AM   #39
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.
I think this sentence is the key. It's no good just 'making do' and keeping on failing due to repeatedly taking incorrect action. But if you don't try something then you won't learn much. For example, I play the guitar and can teach others how to do it. But if all you do is learn the theory behind it and never actually give the practical a go, you are never going to get anywhere. Even if you learn all the theoretical side of things and know how to do it right, once you try to play you are still going to make mistakes. But you should learn from them, try to improve and not keep making them. If you just think "Oh well, it'll do" then you're restricting yourself and are going to struggle to progress much further.

So yes, don't be satisfied with repeatedly doing things the wrong way, but equally don't just sit and do nothing for fear of doing it the wrong way. You cannot learn and improve unless you start somewhere and it's better to at least start small with what you know and get that right before trying to move on to bigger things rather than do nothing at all. So sure, don't think that it's okay to do things wrong and just leave it at that. But it IS okay to do things wrong, learn from the mistakes and try to improve. If you do nothing at all then you won't get anywhere

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Unread 7th February 2013, 08:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

This should have been Obamas real slogan

A man is not old as long as he is seeking something. A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams. (J. Barrymore)
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Unread 7th February 2013, 09:05 AM   #41
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

It's our failures that move us ahead. How so? Well it takes a strong person to look at what is going wrong and why it is not working out and make corrections. Thats how you improve and get better. Iv failed over and over multiple times and its never going to end. Its like saying to a boxer "your never going to get hit" yeah ok. The key is to learn new ways and take action. The more you learn the bigger the picture will get.

It would be cool if the world was perfect... na, then the competition will be way to high... As of now its easy

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Unread 7th February 2013, 01:19 PM   #42
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

When you were a little boy or girl you looked
FORWARD to failing.

Be it learning how to tie a knot in your shoe for
the first time.

Learning how to ride a bike.

Or even learning how to fix a bowl of cereal
for yourself in the morning.

At first you missed a loop...hit a curb and flew
over the handle bars...or accidently spilled milk
all over your mothers hardwood floor.

But eventually -- often sooner than you thought
--- you got it.

Something clicked in your brain. Now it's routine.

You may not appreciate those simple moments
now in adulthood. But I bet when you think back
to those precious memories you smile as you reminece.

So why is it any different now then it was then?

Perhaps it had something to do with losing that
spark that drove you to try new things.

Teachers gave you "F's" on your report card if
you made mistakes.

Parents and gaurdians didn't let you live down a
thing you said or did that sent you to your room as
a punishment.

Society seems to favor those who are successful
right out the gate...while ignoring those who try.

Naturally, overtime, you want success BEFORE you
allow yourself to make mistakes.

Of course, logically, we know this is not possible.

We learned that in childhood.

And we UN-learned it growing up into adulthood.

The challenge then is to approach business with a
child-like curiousity and be WILLING to fall off your
bike a few times before you get it right.

In my opinion, this is THE number one reason people
fail in business.

Not because of a lack of skill or potential.

They never actually TRY and DO anything because
they're so busy covering their bases.

...yet there is no enemy to fight nor terriotory to protect.

In essence, you're defending yourself...from yourself.

That's a losing war.

If you want to take the bunker up the hill of success,
you MUST get from behind your own bases. You must
be willing to fight until the end.

...or you'll be sitting there in the middle of a cold, dead
winter in Barcelone with 1 days rations left, a swig of
water in your Cantene and 1 bullet in the chamber.

Be bold.

Be fearless.

Take a chance and you just may be surprised with your
results.

**--Joe Benjamin --**




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Unread 7th February 2013, 01:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyde View Post
I am hearing it being said a lot around here that doing something incorrectly is better than doing nothing at all. The argument is that at least when doing wrong you are taking action which will ultimately lead to success.

I disagree because only correct action ultimately leads to success. If you are doing something incorrectly, it is very easy to become discouraged when good results are not coming forth. And if good results are not coming then why continue to pour your labor into something that is failing.

So instead of thinking that doing something is good enough... we need to learn to do what is right and only then is it good enough.
But by not doing anything then you wonít know what the outcome is. At least by doing things wrong you can learn from them and change.

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Unread 7th February 2013, 03:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

I think I could write an entire book on this topic...

It's not as black and white as it appears.

In summary...

1- you need some sort of realistic plan

2- you need specific education in aspects of that plan.

3- you then take action.

4- you need the discipline to block out all the noise and persist when things go wrong.

Sal

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Unread 7th February 2013, 03:27 PM   #45
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

It's funny everyone quoting that Edison tried 10000 times before he got to his lightbulb moment.

Tesla (a contemporary of Edison's) used to get really frustrated by his approach, and said so in a famous interview.

Edision: “If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward”

Tesla: “His method was inefficient in the extreme, for an immense ground had to be covered to get anything at all unless blind chance intervened and, at first, I was almost a sorry witness of his doings, knowing that just a little theory and calculation would have saved him 90% of the labor. But he had a veritable contempt for book learning and mathematical knowledge, trusting himself entirely to his inventor's instinct and practical American sense.”

Enemies in Genius Nikola Tesla Versus Thomas Edison

While I admire Edison for his tenacity, he reminds me of a fly hitting a window 100 times before finally lucking out and hitting a hole (which he would admittedly then on-sell for a billion dollars) , whereas I personally prefer to do a little thinking after my mistakes as well as testing ferociously!

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Unread 7th February 2013, 03:31 PM   #46
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Benjamin View Post
When you were a little boy or girl you looked
FORWARD to failing.

**--Joe Benjamin --**
Joe, do you THINK in copy? I love your stuff... I can just imagine you in conversations talking to people the same way that you write...

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Unread 7th February 2013, 03:44 PM   #47
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Valid point about Edison. Never thought of it that way before, but yes, his methods may have been very inefficient.

Once again people miss the point: Without a plan and system (efficient) you're destined to fail more often.

It's the old practice makes perfect argument... if you practice the wrong thing, you'll become perfect at the wrong thing.

Sal

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Unread 7th February 2013, 03:54 PM   #48
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Wasn't disagreeing with you Sal, or missing your point.. think of my post as more of an addendum.. additional reading as it were.

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Unread 7th February 2013, 04:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Some great posts here, but I believe something else needs to be established here - That the word "Wrong" does not necessarily have to mean you're 100% incorrect in your action.

Rather, we often say "you're doing it wrong" when what we really mean is "there's a better way."

Even if there is a "better way" to do something, it does not mean that the marketer is wrong to take the action he/she is - As it is indeed far better than doing nothing at all.

I'd chat about experience being the greatest teacher yada, yada, yada... But it appears others beat me to it.
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Unread 7th February 2013, 04:16 PM   #50
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Default Re: doing something wrong is better than doing nothing at all...do you really think so? I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndetlefs View Post
Wasn't disagreeing with you Sal, or missing your point.. think of my post as more of an addendum.. additional reading as it were.
Wasn't aiming that sentence at you... just speaking in general.

Sal

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