Why do IM'ers think that people want to read thousands of words on their squeeze page?

[Paul Myers]

John,

Do you have any test data to back up that assertion?

You're talking to people whose "test data" usually amounts to, "I did a short page and it worked, so long pages must not work." Or, if they're really experienced, "I did a subscription page with long copy and it didn't work. The problem must have been the number of words."

Intense testing means "At least 2 people whined about the long copy."

I just handed them a live example, with real numbers, that they can see for themselves. I did that page the way I did specifically to show that simple still works, if the offer is right.

They don't care about data, John. They. Have. Opinions.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

Do you mean proof? No I don't keep any records sorry :/

Over the years I have found out that people will usually get bored if you write down large chunks of text on the landing page.

They get bored ... are you sitting down? ... if you're boring!

TalkBiz News

Not exactly breathless prose, eh? Despite that, over 50% of the people who visit that page subscribe and confirm their subscriptions.

That page is one part of a process. The whole process is made to fit into a continuous and consistent experience for the people who eventually read the book and newsletter that comes out the other side.

If the intended experience would have been better served by a short page, that's what I would have used. I would only have judged that to be the case after testing.

Part of my perfect prospect definition is, "Willing to read and expend effort in thought."

It's exactly the same as the person whose product is streaming video. He'd be foolish to sell it with text alone. It's a Qualifier.


Paul

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

My extensive test results show the complete
opposite.

John

In which market, under what conditions, pre sold traffic, raw traffic, free traffic, JV.......

Jeez guys, you are going around in circles.

There is NO right or wrong here, it's really very simple, long copy works , anybody who says otherwise is delusional, short copy works, videos work, all can beat each other in any given situation.

This "my proof is better than your proof" game is the most ridiculous waste of time.

[IM Headlines]

It depends on what you're promoting.

For example sometimes I like to sell "weight loss" products and promote them by article marketing.

In the article I talk about the "weight loss" product and I include a link back to my landing page. I usually use the anchor text "order [product name] now" or something like that.

People will have already read about the product in the article, so they head over to the landing page to buy the product, not to read more about it.

A perfect landing page for this will be a simple one, with some good sales text and some testimonials.

I generate plenty of sales by using this simple method.

EVERYTHING WORKS, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE PROMOTING!

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

Jeez guys, you are going around in circles.

welcome to the warrior forum

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

There is NO right or wrong here, it's really very simple, long copy works , anybody who says otherwise is delusional, short copy works, videos work, all can beat each other in any given situation.

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

This "my proof is better than your proof" game is the most ridiculous waste of time.

So true Simon.

There is so many variables like where the traffic is coming from, who is the audience and how targeted it is, does the audience already know, like, and trust you, is the video good?

[marketguru]

i agree with the op 100%, If i see a huge page of text i immediately hit the back button

[Paul Myers]

Simon,

This "my proof is better than your proof" game is the most ridiculous waste of time.

I don't see anyone discounting anyone else's proof. What I see, and what I believe is required, is people challenging opinions that are put forth as fact, without any evidence to support them.

I don't see anyone saying that short copy or video won't work. That's good, because it would be as ridiculous as the OP's comments about long copy, or the other, similar comments that followed.

This is only a waste of time if you assume a purpose different than what some of us have for continuing the discussion. A lot of the old-timers here (by which I mean length of membership, not age) will call people on these baseless pronunciations in order to keep others from being misled.

We know full well that the OP isn't going to change his mind. Not any time soon, at any rate.

We are responding to the people in this thread, but we're speaking to the folks out there who are quitely reading, and who may not realize just how wrong this kind of blanket statement can be.


Paul

[JayXtreme]

Didn't somebody once say:

"A salesman is always selling, and a marketer is always testing?"

It seems a few of the "marketers" in this thread are prepared to stop testing?...

The ONLY thing that will decide what works in your niche IS your niche..

They will give you the answers that you need.

Peace

Jay

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,I don't see anyone discounting anyone else's proof.
Paul

Paul, you recently responded indirectly with this:

You're talking to people whose "test data" usually amounts to, "I did a short page and it worked, so long pages must not work." Or, if they're really experienced, "I did a subscription page with long copy and it didn't work. The problem must have been the number of words."

Intense testing means "At least 2 people whined about the long copy."

I just handed them a live example, with real numbers, that they can see for themselves. I did that page the way I did specifically to show that simple still works, if the offer is right.

They don't care about data, John. They. Have. Opinions.

That sounds exactly like discounting somebody's "proof" .

What I see, and what I believe is required, is people challenging opinions that are put forth as fact, without any evidence to support them.

The point is however Paul, that you seem to putting your opinions over as fact, and fact they may be within your specific situation , it does not however make them fact across the board, your evidence is about as much use as a chocolate teapot as it relates to somebody elses niche.

This is only a waste of time if you assume a purpose different than what some of us have for continuing the discussion. A lot of the old-timers here (by which I mean length of membership, not age) will call people on these baseless pronunciations in order to keep others from being misled.

I didnt' see anybody being misled, I saw you having an opinion based on your experience and others having the same.

We know full well that the OP isn't going to change his mind. Not any time soon, at any rate.

I agree his argument that Twitter is popular therefore long copy is redundant is bleeding daft but that doesn't mean that the suggestion that some markets have less tolerance for long copy is erroneous.

This is only a waste of time if you assume a purpose different than what some of us have for continuing the discussion. A lot of the old-timers here (by which I mean length of membership, not age) will call people on these baseless pronunciations in order to keep others from being misled.

Putting the OP aside, people have given their experiences in their niches , they are far from baseless and nobody is in my opinion being misled at all. People are saying what works for them in their particular market, it happens to be different to yours, that doesn't make it baseless or inacurate.

Is long copy superior on squeeze pages in some situations .. yes, is it poorer in others, YES.

That Paul is why It seems a waste of time, because there's no end game here, there is no right or wrong in this equation, there is simply situational congruency.

[gilbertogalea]

The great of globalization is that all people aren't same, with statistics may be create groups and tendencies, but never said that all people like read long or shorts articles or post by example. Because you need to focus on your target. Do they expect a lot information to make a decision? or with a bit sentence "minor to 140 character" is good to make a buy... Then you can choice if for your products make a huge land or squezee page or send short message a many people that you can. But remember, a billions users (been humans) are online now for several ways (PC, cell, ipod, microwaves, cars, etc.), only need a system or method to fish them.

[seemar49]

The long sales letter was the old direct mail standard, pre internet, adapted to selling online. It was accepted as the standard way to do things as the offline marketers moved their businesses online. Video is the new wave of communication so get used to it, it's here to stay. Even so, there will always be people who prefer to read but that is because those people have the choice and knew what it was like before. 10 Years from now, You ask a child what he would prefer?(to read something or to watch something) what do you think they will choose? Some may not like video but they won't be around when things move on.

Embrace it now and use it or you'll get left behind.

[Paul Myers]

Simon,

That sounds exactly like discounting somebody's "proof".

Except that neither he, nor anyone else supporting his position, offered any. I discounted an unsubstantiated opinion offered as immutable market reality.

If I missed some evidence or data, please point me to it. That's always a possibility.

The point is however Paul, that you seem to putting your opinions over as fact, and fact they may be within your specific situation , it does not however make them fact across the board, your evidence is about as much use as a chocolate teapot as it relates to somebody elses niche.

You are not responding, Simon. You're reacting.

The data I presented was in rebuttal to blanket statements. It clearly demonstrates that "Nobody reads that stuff" is untrue, at least some of the time.

I have been very careful throughout this thread to avoid making blanket statements to the effect that anything "won't work at all." You'll note, if you check, that my only comment about video, other than that it works for some things, was clearly labelled as personal opinion.

We are pretty much agreeing on the positions.

You don't have a problem with what I've actually said, Simon. You have a problem with what you think I've said, or the tone in which I've said it.

I didnt' see anybody being misled, I saw you having an opinion based on your experience and others having the same.

Are we reading the same thread?

There are people throughout this thread saying that "[presentation format X] doesn't work for Y." Those statements are ALL wrong, and could easily mislead people into avoiding potentially profitable techniques and opportunities.

I stated facts, in the form of actual measured data, and put them within a specific context: My "sales" process for my newsletter. I then pointed out that you should look for what works best for you, based on your situation.

I have not ruled out any form of presentation in this thread.

Do you see the difference between that and "They MUST be short, or they won't work?"

that doesn't mean that the suggestion that some markets have less tolerance for long copy is erroneous.

Show me where I said it was.

People are saying what works for them in their particular market

I am not arguing with anyone who said anything close to that. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of making broad, blanket statements about what "won't work, anywhere."


Paul

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by seemar49

The long sales letter was the old direct mail standard, pre internet, adapted to selling online. It was accepted as the standard way to do things as the offline marketers moved their businesses online. Video is the new wave of communication so get used to it, it's here to stay. Even so, there will always be people who prefer to read but that is because those people have the choice and knew what it was like before. 10 Years from now, You ask a child what he would prefer?(to read something or to watch something) what do you think they will choose? Some may not like video but they won't be around when things move on.

Embrace it now and use it or you'll get left behind.

If I went to a page which was designed to sell me a writing course and I was confronted with a video and some bullet points I would leave, unless I had been heavily pre-sold by some other way on the author.

If you put long copy in front of 16 year old looking to opt in to a ring tone offer, you'll suffer equally.

This thread really seems to me like the equivalent of "apples are better than oranges"...

[seemar49]

You got it in one, Too many opinions with too many variables. You cant please all of the people all of the time.

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,Except that neither he, nor anyone else supporting his position, offered any. I discounted an unsubstantiated opinion offered as immutable market reality.

If I missed some evidence or data, please point me to it. That's always a possibility.You are not responding, Simon. You're reacting.

The data I presented was in rebuttal to blanket statements. It clearly demonstrates that "Nobody reads that stuff" is untrue, at least some of the time.

I have been very careful throughout this thread to avoid making blanket statements to the effect that anything "won't work at all." You'll note, if you check, that my only comment about video, other than that it works for some things, was clearly labelled as personal opinion.

We are pretty much agreeing on the positions.

You don't have a problem with what I've actually said, Simon. You have a problem with what you think I've said, or the tone in which I've said it.Are we reading the same thread?

There are people throughout this thread saying that "[presentation format X] doesn't work for Y." Those statements are ALL wrong, and could easily mislead people into avoiding potentially profitable techniques and opportunities.

I stated facts, in the form of actual measured data, and put them within a specific context: My "sales" process for my newsletter. I then pointed out that you should look for what works best for you, based on your situation.

I have not ruled out any form of presentation in this thread.

Do you see the difference between that and "They MUST be short, or they won't work?"Show me where I said it was.I am not arguing with anyone who said anything close to that. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of making broad, blanket statements about what "won't work, anywhere."


Paul

His proof is just as usable as yours Paul, now your heading into semantics of whether his data is proof or not, you did dismiss the chaps comments about his landing pages in quite a condencending manner. You're no more right than any other poster in this thread Paul, you're right as it relates to your audience. They are not all WRONG, and you're right, they are talking about specific situations which relate to them. The rest of your post really is going around in circles and would require far more time to dismantle than I'm prepared to afford it. Don;'t know about you but I'm far to busy for this format.

[Paul Myers]

seemar,

Embrace it now and use it or you'll get left behind.

They told me that about HTML mail, too. And that was the claim when radio came out. And then TV. And they said the Internet would make books and postal mail obsolete.

Ain't happened. Ain't gonna happen.

Yes, some changes will need to be accomodated. However, there are advantages to the printed word that aren't available to any other medium, and that won't be until we get devices that feed the info to the brain much more quickly than would be useful with video, and give the user the ability to interact with, and edit in real-time, what they're seeing.

Oh... And that allow people to stop and think about what they've just been fed, without needing to reach for the remote.

Video can be very useful for some things. In certain respects, it's much more powerful than plain text. Facial expressions, emotional nuances, and other subtle content are better communicated with video than in print.

For most "how to" information or conceptual exposition, it's a poor third cousin to decently written textual content.

Use what best accomplishes the purpose. If video is the right medium for the message, use it. If audio is better, go that route. Use text where text does the job most effectively.

Choose the right tool for the job. Video is not the right tool for every job.


Paul

[seemar49]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Choose the right tool for the job. Video is not the right tool for every job.

No One said it was. Let's leave it there.

[Paul Myers]

Simon,

His proof is just as usable as yours Paul, now your heading into semantics of whether his data is proof or not

Semantics?

Opinion is not proof.

It's not even evidence. It's just that - opinion. Fine for making personal decisions, but not for giving definitive professional guidance to others.

What "data" did anyone in this thread offer, besides mine and the comments about what percentage of a given page the average person will read?

A single opinion is not "data."

As for the rest... You could not dismantle my positions here without having to change your own. We're saying the same thing.


Paul

[jasonl70]

Regarding sales letters (I'm not talking squeeze pages), the point of long copy is to cover any potential objections to the sale.

People will read as much, or as little, as it takes to address those objections.

This is "salesmanship in print" - since you aren't there in person, you can not take cues from your prospect as to what sort objections they have. Hence you must try your best to pro-actively address as many potential objections in your copy as you can.

The people saying they skim and just check the price are saying that that is all it takes for their objections to be addressed. Maybe they are A.D.D., or maybe they are familiar enough with the market to simply not require the same level convincing as someone newer would require. But if they consider themself a "marketer", then for them to say "I never read all that", and then jump to the conclusion no one else does either, just shows a fundamental ignorance of sales and writing sales copy.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Razer Rage

Still, the fact is if you are an entertaining writer, then it doesn't matter how long your sales copy is.

Entertaining writing is half the equation. You also have to have a reader willing to be entertained. Same goes for enlightening, informing, educating, or persuading.

Here's an example. My wife has cartons of Harlequin Romance books. She reads these things all the time. So do millions of others. By definition, those writers must be "entertaining", right? Half-right. Partial credit. Set me down in front of a stack of those things, and it's good-bye insomnia. I tried reading one once, and by the fourth page, my eyes refused to focus in self-defense. Based purely on my own experience, should I go on a writing forum and tell people to forget about writing pulp romance books because "no one" will read them?

RR, you're very close. Entertaining isn't good enough. You have to engage the reader where they are now and keep them engaged until they arrive where you want them. Look at Paul's example - three opt-in forms on the page, and all three get used.

Originally Posted by a-marketing

It depends on what you're promoting.

For example sometimes I like to sell "weight loss" products and promote them by article marketing.

In the article I talk about the "weight loss" product and I include a link back to my landing page. I usually use the anchor text "order [product name] now" or something like that.

People will have already read about the product in the article, so they head over to the landing page to buy the product, not to read more about it.

A perfect landing page for this will be a simple one, with some good sales text and some testimonials.

I generate plenty of sales by using this simple method.

EVERYTHING WORKS, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE PROMOTING!

In your example here, the landing page is just one piece of the whole process. I'd wager that if you sent cold traffic to the same landing page, you'd see lower conversions than with your pre-sold traffic.

My opinion, based on personal observation (not hard data), is that the right length for your landing page depends less on what you are promoting than on what your whole sales process looks like.

You apply your process to weight loss products. The same process would likely work for selling fishing tackle or time share visits or video game accessories. Or high buck Internet Marketing courses and coaching programs.

Originally Posted by seemar49

You got it in one, Too many opinions with too many variables. You cant please all of the people all of the time.

The good news is that you don't have to please all of the people all of the time to be a rousing success. Ask Rush Limbaugh or Howard Stern. Find a group of people you can please well enough to break out their credit cards and ignore the rest.

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Simon,Semantics?

Opinion is not proof.

It's not even evidence. It's just that - opinion. Fine for making personal decisions, but not for giving definitive professional guidance to others.

What "data" did anyone in this thread offer, besides mine and the comments about what percentage of a given page the average person will read?

A single opinion is not "data."

As for the rest... You could not dismantle my positions here without having to change your own. We're saying the same thing.

Paul

Paul,

He didn't state an opinion, he stated what worked for him with his setup. That's not opinion. An opinion would be " I think if I had a landing page long copy would suck". I presume we are talking about the same guy here, not the OP.

Your "proof" is proof within the context of your situation and your situation only, past that has very little standing as it relates to another niche. It has no nore basis than his "opinion". Do you have the split test reports from your site showing where you tested video in conjunction with various lengths of copy over the general long copy , somehow I'm thinking not, inreality your data isn't very useful.

For the record, some people in IM, who are making millions on top of millions per year have all but done away with long copy on squeeze pages and it works for them, you however are finding it works for you, that makes neither party "wrong" as you put it. It makes it situational. I think we can all manage without being protected from the likes of Frank Kern who also says long copy on squeeze pages doesnt' work for him any more, that doesn't make him wrong , it also doesn't you make you wrong either, it just happens to be the case for him and his situation.

As for the rest... You could not dismantle my positions here without having to change your own. We're saying the same thing.

There was a considerable amount of fluff in your previous post which didn't require a response, nor would it have served any point as it would have taken us even further away from the basic discussion here.

There is no right or wrong, you are not defending us poor impressionable warriors from "baseless" inacurate statements. People are making comments about their experience and what has worked for them and it carries just as much validity as your own experience.

At this point your focus seems to be whether "X" posters data is as good as yours, whilst not accepting that your data is ONLY relevent to your situation, that's the crux and why actually I'm not saying the same as you.

I'm not making the case other people are wrong, well perhaps apart from the OP who thinks long copy is dead because twitter is popular.

Perhaps you could lay down exactly what your point is, mine is very simple.

People are not wrong when they say long copy does not work on their squeeze pages.

What exactly at this juncture is your point ?

[seemar49]

What's an OP?

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by seemar49

What's an OP?

Original Poster../ Thread Starter.

[seemar49]

Thanks Simon

[DavidTheMavin]

I'll bump this thread two years from now when the way to long sales page, squeeze page and landing pages are all completely extinct

Don't say I didn't warn you

[ayolov]

I guess it all depends. If you are bored with the content in the landingpage (or in the sales page for that matter) it means the content is pure hay. As long as you are providing valuable information to your visitor, they will be glued and read every last paragraph (ok, I exaggerated, but you know what I mean), I've read landingpages where you actually take notes, now that is value!

That's why a good article, salespage or landingpage is an art in itself. Every word has a purpose; intrigue, relate to the reader, demonstrate product value, etc. you are slowly pointing the reader to the direction you want him/her to go/do.

We've all seen those salespages with phony screenshots of their clickbank account and pictures of sportscars, fail in one element and the whole sale will fall into pieces. To create interest you have to go beyond just saying how great the product is, you have to demonstrate, even give a sample -or two.

If you are looking for nutritional information for your dog and the salespage is filled with tips, owner experiences, nutritional charts, heck you'll sure read it all; but if it's a sermon about how great is your book is (filled with I, I, I)without any true value, yea the reader will doze off in the second paragraph... and click away!

Know your market and what they want, you can write 10,000+ words in the landingpage and they will stick arround if that's what they were looking for.

[Wade Watson]

Personally, I've always been repulsed by the standard long squeeze page. I think they work on a wear-down theory. If somebody sticks around long enough to read all that copy, they may be worn down to the point of giving in and buying.

When I first started selling on eBay, I surveyed the styles of hundreds of successful description pages. To my surprise, the longest ones, with tons of text and lots of photos, seemed to generally sell comparable items the best.

The video method probably works similarly. Once they commit to sitting through several minutes of video, they're past the quick-browse stage.

[Paul Myers]

Simon,

I presume we are talking about the same guy here, not the OP.

Not the OP, whose comments I addressed individually. And probably not the "same" person, since I was talking about the tone and behavior of folks in the thread in general.

If you're referring to the gentleman who said:

I have created many landing pages in the past and I still do. I have to say that you're right, a sales page with a lot of text will not convert that much.

... note that I responded to him individually. That is the ONLY response you should assume applies to him personally.

However, he does fall into the category of people making absolute statements. Note that he didn't put any useful qualifiers in the last part of that comment. He said, "will not convert that much."

Will not.

Not, "don't in my market," or "haven't for me."

Will not.

He is generalizing his experience to the entire world. That's exactly the sort of thing you and I have both argued against, throughout this thread.

My response to John's quoting of him referred to "They," not "He." That is a clue.

My first post in this thread started with, "Some good points made here. Some of this stuff, though, is hysterical." It also included a recommendation to use the tool that works, whether it's short copy, video, or whatever.

Your "proof" is proof within the context of your situation and your situation only

Yeah. I know. That's why I said pretty much the same thing. Don't argue with me when I'm agreeing with you.

Do you have the split test reports from your site showing where you tested video in conjunction with various lengths of copy over the general long copy , somehow I'm thinking not, inreality your data isn't very useful.

A: I very carefully explained why I used long copy, and why I did not use video. Go back and re-read it. It's in there. Your proof that I haven't edited that post is right there, too. If you edit a post, any "Thank you's" that were made before the edits go away. (I really like that feature.)

B: The data I gave was NOT to prove that long copy was better than some other medium, or to suggest that video somehow "doesn't work." It was to prove that long copy can, and does, work well in the right context.

D: For the purposes for which it was presented, the data is not only useful, it's conclusive.

The only negative thing I've said about video in this whole thread was that I hate most of it. That was, as I've mentioned, labeled as a personal opinion, separate from anything else.

I never said it doesn't work. Not once. That's no more likely than Frank coming in here and telling everyone that long copy never works. (Except as a joke. He might do that, if he's had enough Miller Lite. )

There is no right or wrong, you are not defending us poor impressionable warriors from "baseless" inacurate statements.

Oh?

Not you, certainly, as you appear to have a grasp of the issues involved. There are a lot of people here who don't.

Over the time I've been here, I've seen a lot of people take statements like you see here as being Gospel, and act on wrong information. A LOT of them.

At this point your focus seems to be whether "X" posters data is as good as yours

Wrong.

I'm pointing out that opinions are not data at all. Experience, while potentially valuable as a guide, is not data.

Data involves numbers. In this case, the measured actions of individual human beings in response to a call to action, stated as aggregate probabilities.

What exactly at this juncture is your point?

The same as I think yours are.

Beware of absolute statements made without proper context.

The most effective media will depend on the market, the process, and the desired result.

Test. Don't accept anyone's statements about what's right for you. Believe your prospects' actions.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

David,

I'll bump this thread two years from now when the way to long sales page, squeeze page and landing pages are all completely extinct

You do that. If you're right, I'll buy you a case of beer.

I love comments like this. Smug, self-certain, totally unprovable when made, and hopefully forgotten when proved wrong.


Paul

[DavidTheMavin]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

David,You do that. If you're right, I'll buy you a case of beer.

I love comments like this. Smug, self-certain, totally unprovable when made, and hopefully forgotten when proved wrong.


Paul

So you're doing the same thing by saying that you can prove something that will happen in the future as well. Bump it if I'm proven wrong.

I've made tons of threads like these over the years and been right more than I've been wrong and I bump them either way, everything from elections to sports predictions so this isn't my first pony show Paul

[Paul Myers]

If long ass sales pages convert that well, why the best converting websites in the industry (CPA based products mostly such as ACAI or Beauty products) are short and go straight into the bullet points and/or a quick live action video?

This is not a opinion, it's a fact. They are the best converting pages and they are all short on BS verborrhea.

Have you been paying attention? Different markets, different desired actions, different approaches.

Marketing lesson 38: Commodities are sold on impulse or differentiation. They do not require convincing anyone to buy the base product, just your version of it. Or, that you be the only version there when the decision is made to buy.

Marketing lesson 2: The closer your product is to the mating drive, the less time is required to activate the desire to purchase it.


Paul

[DavidTheMavin]

This is a valid question:

Why do IM'ers think that people want to read thousands of words on their squeeze page?

And there are plenty of valid answers to it as well.

[Paul Myers]

David,

I haven't said anything about the future, except that books and other plain text will still be around, and will still be the most effective way of communicating some forms of information.

People have been predicting the death of long copy, the demise of plain text, and the ascension of audio or video as the new prime medium for the 10 years I've been a member here. And they almost always give the same time frame: 2 years.

Want some predictions?

Video will, indeed, be more common. Some of it will be excellent. Even more of it will suck, since most of the people doing it won't have a clue how to write.

Long form sales letters will still be around, and will still be effective in markets where that's the most appropriate technology for the message. Those markets aren't going to change much. Some exceptions will exist, like self-help and motivational training, which benefit significantly from the emotional nuances that are easier to give in video formats.

People will still be predicting the death of long copy, despite that.

People will still whine about my newsletter because, "It's too long. Nobody will read it." As has happened for the past 12 years that I've been putting the thing out, people will read it, use it, profit from it, and buy stuff through it.

I will be having this same discussion, for the same reason.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

This is a valid question:

Why do IM'ers think that people want to read thousands of words on their squeeze page?

And there are plenty of valid answers to it as well.

Yep. No bout adoubt it.

Unfortunately, some of the answers aren't valid. Some people do, indeed, waste a lot of their readers' time, with fluff and nonsense and unsubstantiated hype.

That's an entirely different discussion, though.


Paul

[Patrice Le Vexier]

For every products, there are tons of competitors, how do you think a short sales page could convince the reader that your product is better than your competitors' ones?

Now, maybe you're in a market with less competition... enjoy while it lasts.

Patrice

[IM Headlines]

I'm sorry if I was interpreted wrong in this post.

Originally Posted by a-marketing

I have created many landing pages in the past and I still do. I have to say that you're right, a sales page with a lot of text will not convert that much.

If the visitors that come to your page are targeted, then you don't need tons of text and thousands of words.

I was just sharing my experience. Just because a simple landing page has worked for me, that doesn't mean it's going to work for you guys.

I have also written this:

"If the visitors that come to your page are targeted, then you don't need tons of text and thousands of words."

I'm saying here that your traffic has to be TARGETED (very targeted) if you want a simple landing page with few text to convert.

If the traffic is NOT targeted, then you have to add more text on your landing page, so that people will understand what they're going to buy, join etc....

Anyway Paul is right, I should've been clearer in my post.

Hope that solves any misunderstanding

[patJ]

I have a short sales letter on my page and it converts very well.

I think it really depends on the offer. If they have already been presold then the LP doesn't really need that much text.

[SimonHarrison]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Don't accept anyone's statements about what's right for you. Believe your prospects' actions.

Paul

Agreed, which has been my point anyway, the rest snipped as again , mostly irrelevent minutia and I don't have the kind of time to respond to every non issue in this vein.

I think you'll find the guy qualified himself saying it depended on your market, pretty much everybody in this thread has said the same.. many times. You're just sort of banging on irrelevent.

Don't argue with me when I'm agreeing with you

Said without a hint of irony.... but plenty of arrogance at least.

Nobody in this thread is stupid enough to take a single 2 line post as red that all long copy is irrelevent without questioning it, it's absurd.

On every other point we agree, you're playing with semantics and strawmans extending an utterly moot issue frankly.

I'll leave you to it...

[Paul Myers]

"If the visitors that come to your page are targeted, then you don't need tons of text and thousands of words."

Targeted and pre-sold, perhaps. There are other factors, like how much they know about the product, the price, how badly they want it, whether it's something new or an established commodity, how copy length will affect consumption (use) of the product, what kind of expectations you want to set, where the page fits in the process, and probably more that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

If there's a mix in the market, give them options. The first chance to sign up on the page I was discussing appears after a whopping 72 words. That's pretty short copy. Whenever they make a decision, it's easy to scroll to a form.

Let them decide when they want to buy. (As if we have any control over that anyway.)

There are no cut-and-dried answers for most of these things.

Oh... Not to worry, dude. Very few people here even remember discussions like this as connected to any one person. Even fewer of us take them personally.

Paul

[Paul Myers]

Simon,

Nobody in this thread is stupid enough to take a single 2 line post as red that all long copy is irrelevent without questioning it, it's absurd.

To you and I, sure, they're absurd.

But I'm not talking about the people "in" the thread. I'm talking about a lot of people who read these things and assume that anything that's not challenged, and which they see repeated often, must be true.

Whether you care to believe it or not, it happens. A lot.

Said without a hint of irony.... but plenty of arrogance at least.

See, this is where audio or video helps. Not one person I've ever said that to in person or over the phone has taken it as anything but good humor.

Perhaps you have assumptions about my tone and intent that simply don't apply?

You may dismiss my comments as irrelevant. They may even be so, to you. I can assure you, they are quite relevant to my purpose, which is keeping people from being led into inaction or wrong action by seriously mistaken statements in a professional forum.


Paul

[Robert Puddy]

Originally Posted by prabhakar

I also had this question in my mind from day 1.

I never read long sales letters or squeeze pages. I can't watch video because of my slow connection. Here is my process;

1. Read header, scroll down to see if there is any bulleted list [features].
2. If that is there and I find it interesting, then I will optin, or scroll down to see the price if it's a sales letter.
3. If it's a sales letter, then I will search reviews for that product.

I may buy it.

But when I analysed myself, I came to know that I do like long sales pages. Not to read, but it makes an impression of knowledge.

I like thse type of pages, which provide everything I need.
Example
Yes, it's an affiliate link, but only for example. [ Only visible for US ].

Every body does this and its why long copy works


Headline and first paragraph makes them go check the price at the bottom, which is where the bullet points are to reinforce the headline and first paragraph

If you held their interest there then they go read the sales letter for more information

Everything between the the top of the fold and the bullet points is to over come objections and answer any and all questions that might come up

Which is why its long because you have to think of every question a prospect might have

[jasonl70]

Even if you use video - you still need to predict and overcome objections. It is not different then a salesletter in this regard.

And we are already seeing long vs short video discussions popping up

[PaulDomains]

Long Copy sells more than Short Copy, according to Aweber, because Long copy contains something very important for the customer: DETAILS.

When you go shopping, and if you are as picky as most shoppers, you ask the salesperson everything and then when you have all the details, you ask him to repeat 95% of what he has just said.

Besides a sales strategy, long copy works also as a "distraction sophism" as a friend of mine, manager of a big furniture manufacturing company said once.

Your customer, if he-she wants to buy your product, will read and save the document, bookmark for later study and so on. If you don't offer that in your sales letter, you have no argument to sustain.

The more information you offer, the more results you get. Now, having said that, I am trying both modalities. You can call it a "business experiment" which I will offer as a report to my subscribers eventually, for Free of course.

So far, my $0.02

[TheCren]

Originally Posted by DavidTheMavin

I know I don't! Once I see a ton of text and a super long landing or squeeze page I say forget it.

Don't IM'ers know that people ready significantly less and have shorter attention spans on the Internet? This is usability 101 from like 1996 here.

I mean just look at the popularity of twitter.

You're confusing "squeeze page" with "sales letter." Squeeze pages don't have thousands of words, just a few bullet points, some pics, maybe a video, and certainly a capture form to get emails (of course).

Now if you're asking why long sales letters, think of it as using an infomercial to get clients instead of a commercial. Clearly it works because many marketers use it very successfully, but it doesn't work in every market for every product type.

The point is, you don't speak for 100% of the population. Not everyone thinks like you. Learn to think like a consumer. Many people need to hear the whole story or else they simply won't buy. Several thousand words is what it takes to sell.

[Canee]

It's an interesting dilemma. On one hand, I don't want to waste my time reading thousands of words or watching some crappy video. On the other hand, I want enough information to decide whether or not something is worth subscribing to or purchasing.

I used to read through lots of long squeeze pages and sales pages, but now I have some time-saving techniques.

1. If there is a video involved, I close the window and move on. Experience has shown me that most videos are just a huge waste of time. I don't have time to waste watching videos of someone yattering on and on without saying anything useful, helpful or important. And "how-to" videos are also mostly a waste of time, as they tend to skip over things and you are left sitting there wondering how they got from step 3 to step 4 (for example).
2. I skim the first part of a squeeze page or sales page, then scroll down looking for highlights on the way to the bottom where the price is mentioned. Anything that costs more than $ 50 I close the window and move on, unless something I saw while scrolling down REALLY caught my attention.

[Steven Fullman]

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

...and would require far more time to dismantle than I'm prepared to afford it. Don;'t know about you but I'm far to busy for this format.

Originally Posted by SimonHarrison

...and I don't have the kind of time to respond to every non issue in this vein.

C'mon Simon,

Admit it...you're losing the argument. Which is silly, since both you and Paul seem to be (almost) in agreement...!?

You can't say you're 'oh too busy' to deal with the issue...and THEN argue your latest case over several more (long copy) posts...surely?

That'd just be...well, whatever.

Anyway, gotta go. I'm snowed under.

Steve

[nemock]

The proven success of long copy is not based on people reading the letter word-for-word. This is why formatting is as important as the copy. If you model good NLP practices people will get what they need while skimming. If it is then a.) something they want b.) something they want relative to the price you're asking for and c.) if they believe you, then a sale is what you get.

As Dan Kennedy says, "the debate over long copy vs short copy has been raging, literally, since before the Civil War. If you want to go test it yourself, go ahead. Meanwhile, I'll make sales applying what I already know."

Dave Saunders (davesaunders) on Twitter

[Paul Myers]

Steve,

Admit it...you're losing the argument.

Not possible. There was no argument. That was a classic case of points getting mixed up in a long and contentious thread.

Man, if the worst thing anyone ever did here was say sensible things and stick up for someone he thought was being unfairly treated, and gave me a little polite tussle in the process... Well, that'd be a really nice worst case, wouldn't it?

Anyway, gotta go. I'm snowed under.

Have I told you lately you're a smartass, Steve?


Paul

[Steven Fullman]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Have I told you lately you're a smartass, Steve?


Paul

Don't get me started on you, Myers.

Please.



Steve

P.S. Pretty please?

[Steven Fullman]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Steve,Not possible. There was no argument. That was a classic case of points getting mixed up in a long and contentious thread.

Man, if the worst thing anyone ever did here was say sensible things and stick up for someone he thought was being unfairly treated, and gave me a little polite tussle in the process... Well, that'd be a really nice worst case, wouldn't it?


Paul

Good point, duly noted.