ClickBank - the real facts

[Trader54]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

trader,



He already said that he had no proof -- he also already stated that he didn't imply that clickbank was doing it. He only said that it is possible.

Yes true but I think accusations like that undermine what you say.

I believe that you feel there is a problem, but when someone like that
makes unfounded claims it undermines what you say and makes the whole
thing like frivolous just like in the previous thread when someone made some
doctored clickbank stats. From your point of view those are the last type
of posters I would want on my side.

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by Trader54

And what proof do you have that happens???

Thats laughable.

Harvey gave flawed logic for why we should trust CB isn't doing that. He exposed it. He doesn't need proof because he's not claiming CB actually did that and the fact that you ask for it shows you don't really comprehend the point at all.

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by Trader54

Yes true but I think accusations like that undermine what you say.

Again, he made no accusations. Learn to read.

[Trader54]

Originally Posted by Darth Executor

Again, he made no accusations. Learn to read.

Read what he said .....

"I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate"

[Steven Wagenheim]

Okay, here is my final word on this subject, for whatever my word is worth.

Based on the evidence I have seen as well as evidence presented by
marketers who I trust without hesitation, I firmly believe that there is a
problem with Clickbank's tracking system.

Whether or not it's internal or because of...

browser settings
anti spyware programs
theft by outside programmers
or whatever

If the problem is external to Clickbank, it's still a problem and a flaw in
their system and therefore they need to modify the system so that these
things cannot screw with people's sales.

This is what I believe and a room full of Clickbank cheerleaders could not
get me to change my beliefs.

Again, I am not saying that this is something that Clickbank is doing
intentionally. I have no reason to suspect that they are trying to cheat
affiliates and merchants because it just makes no business sense,
especially if they're caught.

But in my mind, the evidence is overwhelming that there are tracking
issues...whatever the reason.

It's their responsibility to fix it...period.

If that means they have to hire the brightest minds on the planet to
design a system that...

can't be whacked by browsers
can't be whacked by anti spyware programs
can't be whacked by hoplink hijack programs
or can't be whacked by the man on the moon or whatever

then that is what they have to do.

Or they can do whatever they're doing now and watch affiliates and
merchants abandon their company.

Me?

I'm going to do what Bryan suggested and get back to some meaningful
work because this whole issue has become monotonous and boring.

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by Trader54

Read what he said .....

"I realize that, but that doesn't mean the affiliate is a "real" affiliate"

I did. That's not an accusation. He's saying it's a possibility because harvey gave a ridiculous argument as to why clickbank gains nothing by doing it.

[Mark Singletary]

Just to set the record straight, around 2001-2003 time frame approximately, Clickbank did frequent this forum. As a matter of fact the CEO (or high level position) at the time, Stephen Rouse, came to answer questions personally at one point. I guess they got tired of getting involved in no win conversations.

I don't see any of the major payment processors coming to get involved in the conversation either - even though there are a lot of threads about them.

I don't understand how anyone could honestly say that a CB representative should come here to explain their position. Do you think they would get in a word without being called names, threatened, etc? As a matter of fact, most companies avoid all casual non attorney conversation with people once the threat of lawsuits come up - which it has here recently.

I'm not on one side of the debate or the other but I am for fairness.

Mark

[yves]

1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.

Maybe they have a shavings account (in the style of Sean Connery)

Sorry, had to be said

[Aaron Moser]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

I don't understand how anyone could honestly say that a CB representative should come here to explain their position. Do you think they would get in a word without being called names, threatened, etc? As a matter of fact, most companies avoid all casual non attorney conversation with people once the threat of lawsuits come up - which it has here recently.

I'm not on one side of the debate or the other but I am for fairness.

Mark

I don't expect them to come to the forum but at least admit they had a blip. Or at least when outages occur be transparent and post that service was interupted like Aweber does..

BTW, I never knew CB visited this forum. That was a couple years before I joined. I see your point though... It's just that's I've seen Mike Filsaime in here defending PDC, I've seen the owner of Aweber in here but never CB. Now I know why.

Thanks,

[Jack Duncan]

OK,
My bad if I am missing something crucial here...but these threads have really had me scratching my head a bit here lately...

Can't this entire argument be solved very quickly, with some creativity on the part of the product owners...after all, they stand to be the real losers SHOULD ClickBank be shortchanging the affiliates...

Here's how: Track your own hops/sales as a product owner

Scenario:

Step 1: Affiliate "BobbyG" writes an article on "How To Get Rid Of Love Handles" and puts his ClickBank affiliate ID in the Resource Box.

Step 2: Customer "Tom" reads the article and clicks on BobbyG's link...but instead of ClickBank being the ONLY recorder of the hop, Product Owner "JayKool" also has software in place to see that "BobbyG" just sent him a hop. Product Owner "JayKool" wants to make sure "BobbyG" gets ALL his affiliate commissions because he wants to keep him HAPPY.

Step 3: "Tom" takes the bite...and buys the ebook for $47. "JayKool's" software makes a note of the sale.

Step 4: "JayKool" decides to congratulate his affiliate for making 1 sale already...so he emails him to let him know "job well done". (Or he waits to the end of the month to congratulate him on 39 sales...)

Step 5: "BobbyG" responds with a "WHAT...I didn't get credit for any sales..."

Step 6: "JayKool" now has ACTUAL DATA to prove something is fishy at some point in the tracking system.

Note: This system MUST be based on IP tracking...to prevent "JayKool" from getting scammed as well...he needs to track Referrer + Customer IP + Download Page IP to make this work.

Did I miss something here?

[Michael Oksa]

I'm being a bit facetious, but...

If there wasn't any problem, the first post in this thread wouldn't have to be made.

[Christopher R Everson]

Anyone who thinks that clickbank is a tightly run company needs to see an eye doctor.

The customer service is laughable, both for affiliates and consumers. I'm an affiliate who generates well into the six figures yearly for clickbank, and I can tell you they aren't MY friend.

Between the downright ghetto product approval system, the horrid multiple product system (why do so many affiliates have 5+ clickbank accounts? how is that a clever system?), the $46,000 check that bounced this February, the archaic tracking system, the fact that one affiliate spamming a product can get it removed from clickbank entirely, the speed at which it updates, the stupid gravity rating, etc etc.

The ONLY reason I use clickbank is because everyone else does, and I'm still in the process of removing it from my business structure.

You want to talk about a company that cares about its affiliates and users? Go talk to the guys at IPowerPay, they'll welcome you with a pat on the back. I could call my affiliate manager at 3 in the morning and tell him monsters are under my bed, and he'd fly out to make sure it was ok. Service with a smile, the way it SHOULD be done.

[easybiztools]

Hi Guys,

As usual, Harvey started the party while I was asleep ...

I think the main thrust of Harvey's post is regarding ClickBank's integrity and their effort in upgrading/maintaining their system.

Harvey never said their system is faultless - no system is. Not even the mighty Google.

Regardless of which system one uses, there will problems, glitches, etc.

Has anyone considered the fact that it could be the ISPs that is causing the problem?

Let me give you some real examples. I work from Starbucks each day. I subscribe to hotspotvpn.com (a US based company) for secure internet access since I'm in a public wifi area.

On most days, I have no problem connecting to the vpn service - one some days, I simply can't access the vpn - but I can access the internet from the public wifi.

Whose fault? the VPN service provider says their servers are fine. The ISP here in Malaysia put me on hold for 1 week. Then they said there is no problem on their end.

Yesterday, I could not access the ClickBank success forum from the VPN, but if I connect from the public wifi, there is no problem.

Last night, I replied a customer (email at @rogers.com) but the email bounced saying 'no such user here' - BUT when I used gmail to answer her, it worked!


So, what's my point?

Your affiliate hoplinks goes through multiple ISPs, data-centers, filters, proxies (ISP use proxies as well for load-balancing), etc, etc before it finally reaches ClickBank.

Any of them could have drop the cookies or whatever else due to server upgrades, software upgrades, reboots, momentary lost of database connection, etc, etc.

Anyone of those could suffer a breakdown at anytime. So, why blame ClickBank for everything?

Just my 2 cents.

Adrian

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by easybiztools

Anyone of those could suffer a breakdown at anytime. So, why blame ClickBank for everything?

Just my 2 cents.

Adrian

True, but why doesn't Clickbank get ANY of the blame? There is A problem. Maybe CB is to blame, maybe not - I am still undecided. I go back and forth, but I don't think CB is completely faultless in the matter.

[Floyd Fisher]

Originally Posted by TheCren

Clickbank doesn't "just" rely on cookie tracking. They claim to have other technology that tracks a user's purchase as well. Now it's impossible for this tracking to be perfect, but multiple systems is a step up from what other networks do (which is solely cookie-based).

I can think of two ways to find out if a user has made a purchase via affiliate link:
1) Obtain the user's IP address when they come to the site and associate that IP with the affiliate link in a Clickbank database. This way it's stored persistently, the user cannot delete it or prevent it from happening at all.
2) Use session variables. The user again has no control over what CB would do with these, but when the browser session has ended so have the affiliate's chances at commission.

Those are 2 ideas that I was able to come up with on the fly, however, Clickbank does not mention the "technology" they actually use in addition to cookie-based tracking. No form of tracking is ever going to be perfect. Not until the government starts putting chips in our arms and tracking literally everything. Ahhhh, a marketer's dream (and yet a nightmare at the same time).

Actually, I've been putting my brain to work on this.

There may be a better way to do this than cookies. And it may be doable with tech we already use, which is great.

If there is anyone out there that understands TCP/IP technology and either perl or php scripting, and wants in on a potential process patent, PM me so I can bounce ideas off of you.

[easybiztools]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

True, but why doesn't Clickbank get ANY of the blame? There is A problem. Maybe CB is to blame, maybe not - I am still undecided. I go back and forth, but I don't think CB is completely faultless in the matter.

Hi Michael,

I never said ClickBank is faultless - I said no system is perfect :-)

If your system processes 240,000 sales a day (3.6 sales per second), can you imagine how may 'hops' it is processing each second?

There will be glitches from time to time. Harvey never said ClickBank is faultless either. His post was to address ridiculous claims that ClickBank is out to scam affiliates which is completely baseless. 75% of ClickBank's business comes from affiliates - so it is in their best interest to take good care of them.

Cheers,
Adrian

[mikefilsaime]

I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months.

Harvey, great work. A class act company like Clickbank needs a 3rd
party spokesperson to shed some light. You hit the nail on the head.

I had the opportunity to have the VP of Clickbank come to my office.
I had a private dinner with the President of Clickbank in NYC in November.

I talk with their senior Brass monthly.

I can say to you will all I know is right. Clickbank is a class act company that
loves its vendors and its affiliate alike and will do everything they can to
see the success of their vendors.

That success ensures their success. Clickbank makes great revenues. They
do not need to shave off anything to make a few more bucks and ruin the
reputation of quality they have. That is silly!

In the 9 or so years they have been around, they were never late on paying
affiliates once. Not once.

They have even taken my advice on technology and we value each others
opinions. And I can assure you they have an abundant mentality.

They do not sit still. They improve it seems every day.

Are there issues?

YES-

Is it a CB problem?

NO-

It is an INDUSTRY problem. It is related to cookies. This is what almost
all affiliate programs run on. And when the browser blocks a cookie for
CB, it blocks it for PDC, 1shoppingcart, infusion, Amember, BFM you name it.

Do you think at PDC we have never heard a complaint about a cookie not
tracking a sale. Come on, we have a cut/paste reply as we get it daily.

It is not a CB only problem. They are HUGE and a big part of people here
in this forum so yes, with success comes exposure.

But it is time to put your trust back in Clickbank guys. They do what they
promise better than anyone in the game.

They are on your side. I read the stories and I will not allow myself
to get caught up in the conspiracy. Why? Becuase I know the accusations
are simply not true.

Show me ONE TIME and sales was kept by them and a person went
to your help desk and asked for a refund. They refund about 10% of
all sales. Maybe less. So that means that 1/10 chance of ""taking all the cash"
could blow the lid when a customers goes to a vendor for a refund with a prrof
of purchase receipt that is not in the vendors file.

THAT NEVER HAPPENED. So with all these thousands of "Shaved" sales, show
me ONE TIME where a vendor had a refund request with no sale in his account.

If if they do not pay the affiliate and credit it to the vendor, how does that
benefit them?

Come on. Let's use our heads.

They are a great company and have proved it for years.

The technology is not their problem. It is their concern but not
their problem. It is a problem with the industry and we all
have to deal with it as affiliates. Cookies blocked by browser
take money away from us.

But as a vendor, it puts money in your pocket so we have to understand
that i the end, it all equals out. And if we lose a bit here and there
to technology, it is a calculated risk we all have to take as affiliate with ANY network.

Thanks for taking the time to read my point of view.

Thanks,

Mike Filsaime

[Trader54]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

Thanks for taking the time to read my point of view.

Thanks,

Mike Filsaime

Thanks!

Nice to hear from someone on the inside so to speak.

[Floyd Fisher]

Originally Posted by yves

1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.

Maybe they have a shavings account (in the style of Sean Connery)

Sorry, had to be said

Yeah, but don't you think a merchant would notice this when comissions were going to an affiliate by the name of 'clickbank'?

[easybiztools]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

But as a vendor, it puts money in your pocket so we have to understand
that i the end, it all equals out. And if we lose a bit here and there
to technology, it is a calculated risk we all have to take as affiliate with ANY network.

Mike Filsaime

Well said Mike!

cheers,
Adrian

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months...

This is why Mike is still one of my idols.

[Thomas Wilkinson]

How do you ignore a user again?


EDIT: Great post Mike, thanks a lot.

Tom

[Quentin]

Thanks for the great post Harvey.

I cut my Internet Marketing Teeth with Clickbank and my only gripe was the checks but now they have introduced direct payment I am so pleased.

Clickbank is a service and hey if you don't like it don't use it.

As for me, any company that allows me to run my own affiliate program and also handles the payment of my affiliates which cuts out a huge administration problem will always get my business even if there are some hickups along the way.

Quentin

[Frank Bruno]

Harvey are you a self appointed CB mediator?

I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

Because I'm baffled and still have no clue why you are so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization.

I'm being serious here am I missing something I'm just curious what your position is with the company?

If you have no official ties with the company then you are just like the rest of us...

Mushrooms. We are all kept in the dark and fed a bunch of sh@#t.

Frank Bruno

P.S- I do not believe they are intentionally stealing money. I belive its an internal technical issue which I have witnessed and experienced myself that screws with affiliate commisisons and it goes way beyond simple loss of cookie tracking. Its happening to many people.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

I have sat back reading this "CB" stuff for the past few months.

So because some high up CB official told you they are honest, I guess it must be true.... ???

I don't care if President Obama himself told me Clickbank didn't have major issues - it wouldn't mean anything to me after what I've seen - with my own eyes.

All rudeness aside - If it really is a cookie tracking problem - then sure CB can shrug off a lot of the blame. Maybe it's my lack of technical knowledge on the issue but what do cookies have to do with not seeing sales in your account and having them magically re-appear after creating a new account?

[James Campbell]

And still no one has a valid answer for why opening a new account and switching out the ID's on all your links magically takes your sales from 1/800 to 1/50, within a few minutes and continues that way, then out of nowhere back to 1/800, until they switch to a newly opened account, and back to 1/50. For some people this has been going on for months.

People who say no one has any valid evidence seem to be keeping their head in the sand. Many people have tracked, taken screen caps, got various people to do purchases, etc... and yet there are people saying that their evidence is not valid. Have some respect for the intelligence of these warriors. Many of these warriors do their due diligence before making outrageous claims, please give them that respect.

CB has some explaining to do, or at the very least some PR to do. This isn't the only forum where this is being discussed, and there are plenty of other forums who give light to the valid proof they have found. I'm not talking about a week of sales, I'm talking about months of stats.

Get your head out of the sand all you CB fanboys and give some of these other warriors the respect they deserve.

James

[GarrieWilson]

Whats the point of this thread? Please, someone explain it to me because all I get from it is PR answers that could be rebuted by anyone w/ some knowledge about tracking & PCs.

Actually, I could rebute 90% of the ones in this thread - for or against.

ClickBank, or any company for that matter, will not openly admite to issues that haven't been proven yet. They will always do PR bits. (Speaking from 1st hand knowledge. I have a few friends that their jobs is pretty much client damage control.)

With that said, I have along taken the stance that I haven't seen any proof.

I know somethings that could call the issue but not as wide scale as people report.

You people with problems, need to start tracking w/ 3rd party software and record things like: time of day, browser type and version, ISP, OS, referrals, etc.

You should even be doing a test cookie. e.g. See if you can set and read one.

Or you can keep assuming things are bad.

Steven, did you happen to clear your browser cache that one time and are you using IE? I have noticed that on IE, at times, all cookies wont set or be read but if you clear the cache (not cookies) it will start working again.

Mike, just one thing:

And when the browser blocks a cookie for CB, it blocks it for PDC, 1shoppingcart, infusion, Amember, BFM you name it.

That's not true and it depends on several factors. Things like 3rd party software installed and types of cookie being set (3rd party, 1st part, w/ a compact privacy party).

For instance, SpyBot was blocking ClickBank but not for Amazon. SpyBot even started blocking ClickBank order links (wouldnt let you click them.) Dont know if it still does.


Garrie

[Harvey.Segal]

Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?

Originally Posted by AdamWB

So because some high up CB official told you they are honest, I guess it must be true.... ???

I doubt if he could pull the wool over Mike's eyes.

Mike is the owner of paydotcom - a rival company

Harvey


.

[Fabian Tan]

Wow - some people have their whole body (not just their head) DEEP in the sand.

Fabian

[Fabian Tan]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Based on the evidence I have seen as well as evidence presented by
marketers who I trust without hesitation, I firmly believe that there is a
problem with Clickbank's tracking system.

Whether or not it's internal or because of...

browser settings
anti spyware programs
theft by outside programmers
or whatever

If the problem is external to Clickbank, it's still a problem and a flaw in
their system and therefore they need to modify the system so that these
things cannot screw with people's sales.

Well said.

I don't care if someone f'ed up on purpose or not. That's for apologists to discuss.

What I want are problems fixed.

Fabian

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Harvey,

Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal

Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?

I doubt if he could pull the wool over Mike's eyes.

Mike is the owner of paydotcom - a rival company

Harvey

.

Half the time I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic...

Since you started the thread, why don't you stick to being serious so that your comments aren't misunderstood.

Because surely what you wrote above was meant to be sarcastic.

[Josh Anderson]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If that means they have to hire the brightest minds on the planet to
design a system that...

can't be whacked by browsers
can't be whacked by anti spyware programs
can't be whacked by hoplink hijack programs
or can't be whacked by the man on the moon or whatever

then that is what they have to do.

Then they should hire my partner and I.

We designed what I believe to be one of the most accurate affiliate tracking systems on the market today.

1. Our system tracks by cookie and IP
2. Our system knows when someone tries to buy off their own affiliate link and looks back at the last legitimate referring affiliate and rewards them instead (stopping affiliate theft)
3. Our system has some advanced affiliate/jv type functions that can guarantee 100% accuracy on jv partner affiliate commissions 100% of the time using incentives and what I call "forced coupons."

And that is just a fraction of it.

However, those are not genius concepts. And certainly no tracking system is impervious... for example if an affiliate thief knows a system uses IP and affiliate tracking they can use a proxy or go to another connection with a different IP. Yet those concepts are common sense considering the current browser security climate and other issues that all affiliate tracking developers must pay attention to in order to ensure a viable affiliate tracking system today and in the future.

If clickbank's tracking system really is flawed (is has demonstrated severe flaws and weaknesses over the years) then the greater problem may be that they have so many affiliates using the system that they have legacy issues where they cannot just wipe the old flawed base system but rather keep on trying to patch it.

If they have "rebuilt it from the ground up" then why are these issues still here?

Its either mass hysteria or the symptoms of a legacy issue and systematic flaws in their tracking models and development approach.

Honestly, I am skeptical about most of the complaints I see levied these days about clickbank because they are usually from very low volume affiliates who are only generating 0-3 sales a day and who have never had a large enough sample on a consistent basis to levy a statistically legitimate complaint.

But there is one thing that cannot be debated... clickbank has one of the worst records historically when it comes to issues with their affiliate tracking. But most of that can be squarely ascribed to their previous reliance on a cookie based system and the fact that they were targeted specifically by security software solutions, affiliate thieves, and adware/affiliate link hijackers.

For this reason I can understand why clickbank might have a proprietary back up method for tracking now in place (this supposedly came about after the spybot search and destroy issue) which they do not openly publicize. That may be smart. But it also leads to some skeptisizm.

Still their evidentially slow response to tracking issues over the years does make me wonder if the root problem is their platform or possibly they just need more genius.

[GarrieWilson]

Originally Posted by Josh Anderson

1. Our system tracks by cookie and IP
2. Our system knows when someone tries to buy off their own affiliate link and looks back at the last legitimate referring affiliate and rewards them instead (stopping affiliate theft)
3. Our system has some advanced affiliate/jv type functions that can guarantee 100% accuracy on affiliate commissions 100% of the time.

What no tracking by refering url?

I'm surprised.

Garrie

[Josh Anderson]

What no tracking by refering url?

I'm surprised.

Garrie

I did not want to drag out the list of all our tracking features...

You must have missed this:

And that is just a fraction of it.

I could fill a page with all we track ;-)

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Harvey,
Half the time I can't tell whether you are being serious or sarcastic...

My suggestion to make Mike's post a sticky was neither serious or sarcastic.

Harvey


.

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Well in that case -- It was aweful nice of you to start a "serious" thread that has drug on for pages only to post nonsense in your own thread

Stirring the **** in the pot and then playing games in the thread is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal

My suggestion to make Mike's post a sticky was neither serious or sarcastic.

Harvey


.

[GarrieWilson]

Originally Posted by Josh Anderson

I could fill a page with all we track ;-)

There really isn't a lot of reasons to lose commissions.

As far as an ou dated system for CB, they could leave the old system in place to track "whats out there" and then migrate everyone to a better system. Instead of hop.cb.whatever, they could just get another subdomain.

Then if they wanted to get really good, they could let people add a domain to their account so people don't need to worry about clickbank.net being blacklisted. Or even do like CJ.com

Lots of solutions they could do.

[zerofill]

Bruce is exactly right...
It was what I was just saying to Jeremy before I read the rest of the thread...

1. ClickBank "shave off" affiliate commissions.

ClickBank makes the same amount of money whether a vendor or an
affiliate makes the sale. Shaving commission would be pointless.

It is definitely possible for them to make more by taking the commission themselves.

Whether they do that or not I don't know...
Really don't care anymore...because CPA makes us more money anyway...

Their tracking system is so 1999 it is pathetic though...

[Jeremy Kelsall]

lol

Originally Posted by zerofill

Whether they do that or not I don't know...
Really don't care anymore...because CPA makes us more money anyway...

At least they pretty much admit they shave

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Well in that case -- It was aweful nice of you to start a "serious" thread that has drug on for pages only to post nonsense in your own thread

Stirring the **** in the pot and then playing games in the thread is much appreciated.

Jeremy

Don't you think this is an over-reaction to one single line which said
"Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?"

Harvey



.

[zerofill]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

The technology is not their problem. It is their concern but not
their problem. It is a problem with the industry and we all
have to deal with it as affiliates. Cookies blocked by browser
take money away from us.

Sorry but that is wrong...
Want to know why?

We know of people buying through their own links...and the affiliate info is at the bottom of the clickbank payment form. Once it is in that form...It's on their end...it is no longer a damn cookie issue...that is post data. It goes...unless they have an issue.

EDIT: So in other words...if they can get the sale data from that point they can get the damn affiliate info too...

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Harvey,

Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal

Jeremy

Don't you think this is an over-reaction to one single line which said
"Can we make Mike Filsaime's outstanding post a sticky ?"

Harvey

.

Maybe it is....

But, you have replied with that same type of answer a couple times not only in this thread, but in a couple of the other threads as well...

I respect you as a marketer. Your forum was the first one I signed up for after I got my first clickbank ID

However, it is pissing me off a little bit that for whatever reason you and some other people here on this site refuse to at least admit to the fact that there is more than likely an issue.

Let me lay this out for you and I would like to know how you think this could be happening and as you are reading it know that there are more than a handful of other warriors that have had the same experience.

- Clickbank account is getting $400+ in sales EVERY DAY for months on end

- Clickbank account gets same exact traffic in number and from same source.

- Clickbank account gets no sales for 7 days straight

- New Clickbank account gets opened

- New Clickbank account starts making $400+ a day in sales again

- Repeat the above

Now, Im sure that there are some people that are having no problems at all and I am absolutely thrilled for them. However, I enjoyed making a nice living from clickbank and promoting their products. I still do, but not with the same enthusiasm as I once did.

I'm not asking anyone to totally agree with everything I say, but If I am having the issue above, other warriors have reported the same thing -- Wagenheim is buying **** through his own link and not getting credited...I'd like a reasonable answer as to what the hell is going on and not some "canned company man" FAQ.

This issue has very likely cost me money and for that I am extremely irritated and annoyed -- But more so annoyed by the fact that there are a handful of CB cheerleaders that refuse to at least aknowledge the fact that there COULD be an issue.

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by Frank Bruno

Harvey are you a self appointed CB mediator?

I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

Because I'm baffled and still have no clue why you are so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization.

I'm being serious here am I missing something I'm just curious what your position is with the company?

Frank

This is a good example of how people see things that are just not true.

During all the countless anti-ClickBank threads (i.e those accusing
ClickBank of scamming) I made it a policy NOT to get involved.

All I did was make just two posts (which did not even mention ClickBank)
in the hope that it might counter some of the main allegations.

These were

People with glasses: the stats are in

Should I name and shame this Warrior?

Aside from that all the posts you ever see me make at the forum are
responses to technical type questions about ClickBank's system.

So to say that I am
"so ingulfed in coming forward to represent CB like your a top official within the organization"
or ask if I am
"a self appointed CB mediator"
is way off the mark.



"I'm just curious do you work for them or just want to work for them?

I'm just curious what your position is with the company?"

I don't work for them or want to work for them.
I have no position within the company

My connection with ClickBank is that I run a forum and have a site
about ClickBank - which both carry the disclaimer "This site is not
affiliated with Keynetics Inc./ClickBank in any way etc "

Harvey

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

However, it is pissing me off a little bit that for whatever reason you and some other people here on this site refuse to at least admit to the fact that there is more than likely an issue.

Jeremy

Regarding the "new accounts" issue - I make no mention or defence of it
in the nine points in my original post.

The real problem is that in all other threads where this has been raised
there's been a mass hysteria with people saying 'this proves ClickBank
are scammers".


I would welcome a proper discussion of this issue (and have some
thoughts about it) and have a suggestion. Rather than pursue
it in this thread start a new thread and request that posters are
to avoid accusations but keep to the facts.

Harvey



.

[Jeremy Kelsall]

Harvey,

Sorry if it seemed as though I was taking my frustration out on you..I just got caught up for a minute.

Actually though, I am personally done not only discussing this, but participating in threads that have anything to do with it. Not because I don't think that it is something worth talking about, but because it is just pointless to waste time on it. There isn't anything that any of us in this forum can do about it...so, it is what it is.

[GarrieWilson]

I would welcome a proper discussion of this issue (and have some
thoughts about it) and have a suggestion. Rather than pursue
it in this thread start a new thread and request that posters are
to avoid accusations but keep to the facts.

Then why not start that thread instead?

I don't think anyone can discuss facts because no one has any. Not you, not "them," no one. Until someone starts doing their own tracking and recording the data thats needed, it's all open to interpretation.

Out of the anti-people, I haven't seen anyone mention the software they are using on their sites to redirect people or if they are using direct links or any other data besides whats in the CB account. Which is funny because if I thought CB was having any issue, I wouldnt believe any of the stats. If CB shows "lots" of hops but no sales, then the inbound traffic stats could be wrong too.

Out of the pro-cb people, I haven't seen anything besides "they wouldn't" or "i talk to them all the time" type of posts. Which of course, means nothing. People talked to the Enron folks too and thought they would do no wrong.

Garrie

[Jason Moffatt]

All I know is...

I sure like getting my checks every 2 weeks like clockwork.

Thanks Clickbank!

If you think your commissions are being tampered with using Clickbank, try promoting some of the well known marketers products out there and see how you like it?

Let's just say lots of them have... FUZZY MATH.

[AdamWB]

Originally Posted by jamesc32

And still no one has a valid answer for why opening a new account and switching out the ID's on all your links magically takes your sales from 1/800 to 1/50, within a few minutes and continues that way, then out of nowhere back to 1/800, until they switch to a newly opened account, and back to 1/50. For some people this has been going on for months.

People who say no one has any valid evidence seem to be keeping their head in the sand. Many people have tracked, taken screen caps, got various people to do purchases, etc... and yet there are people saying that their evidence is not valid. Have some respect for the intelligence of these warriors. Many of these warriors do their due diligence before making outrageous claims, please give them that respect.

CB has some explaining to do, or at the very least some PR to do. This isn't the only forum where this is being discussed, and there are plenty of other forums who give light to the valid proof they have found. I'm not talking about a week of sales, I'm talking about months of stats.

Get your head out of the sand all you CB fanboys and give some of these other warriors the respect they deserve.

James

I don't know man. It really baffles me. Like I said earlier - I've seen irrefutable proof that Clickbank is doing some pretty funky things with my account - and some of it has nothing to do with this cookie tracking BS. It's so blatantly obvious that something is going on with Clickbank - cookie tracking or not.

Then you get people like Harvey and Mike coming on here basically saying I'm wrong, I didn't experience what I saw, and that the earth is still flat. And they must know because they have connections with the higher powers of Clickbank. What's even worse is the people sitting on the fence about this take what they say as gospel. Sad.

I really hate getting rude but I almost feel like I have a moral obligation to call out people like this.

Jeremy - I hate to see you go, but I'm not even close to being done with this. I've still got some energy left in me =)

[Harvey.Segal]

Originally Posted by AdamWB

Then you get people like Harvey and Mike coming on here basically saying I'm wrong, I didn't experience what I saw, and that the earth is still flat.

Adam,

Yet again people misconstrue what I did or did not say.

Read my answer to Jeremy:

Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal

Regarding the "new accounts" issue - I make no mention or defence of it
in the nine points in my original post.

Harvey

[Neil S]

Originally Posted by mikefilsaime

Show me ONE TIME and sales was kept by them and a person went
to your help desk and asked for a refund. They refund about 10% of
all sales. Maybe less. So that means that 1/10 chance of ""taking all the cash"
could blow the lid when a customers goes to a vendor for a refund with a prrof
of purchase receipt that is not in the vendors file.

THAT NEVER HAPPENED. So with all these thousands of "Shaved" sales, show
me ONE TIME where a vendor had a refund request with no sale in his account.

If if they do not pay the affiliate and credit it to the vendor, how does that
benefit them?

Mike, I think you are really missing the argument here. The issue isn't "shaved sales". I don't take anyone seriously who accuses Clickbank of stealing commissions. And I am sure most Warriors who have issues with Clickbank would agree with that. The idea is ridiculous and simply doesn't make any sense.

I don't even think the issue is tracking either. The issue I believe is their fraud prevention and payment processing. This really began in the fall of last year when it was reported that Clickbank had made changes to their system in an effort to curb fraudulent charges.

For a company like Clickbank, I am sure fraud is a major issue. I just believe their fraud detection is a little over-agressive and seems to shut accounts down temporarily if foul play is suspected. This explains why when someone opens a NEW account they see immediate sales.

My only hope is that they find a way to combat fraud while not missing out on legitimate sales.