My Odesk Nightmare

11 years ago

As someone who (rarely) hires and has worked before (also rarely) through that site, the protections for both programmers and customers are really tissue-paper thin. VWorker was always my favorite freelance outlet, but they got bought by freelancer.com and it hasn't quite been the same since then. I tend to avoid both oDesk and Guru.

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Dave90210

11 years ago

Looks like freelancer.com is buying out all the good freelancer sites. I tried freelancer but the fees are outrageous

Originally Posted by ecoverartist

As someone who (rarely) hires and has worked before (also rarely) through that site, the protections for both programmers and customers are really tissue-paper thin. VWorker was always my favorite freelance outlet, but they got bought by freelancer.com and it hasn't quite been the same since then. I tend to avoid both oDesk and Guru.

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Derek S

11 years ago

This is part of the reason you should always give a contractor some sort of test run before hiring them for your main job.

I always give my guys a trial job before I move them on to the real deal.

Most will give you a custom sample of their work for free but even if you pay them for a trial project - Its saves you more money in the long run than having them mess up and starting all over again with someone new.

Just live a learn from this experience.

Put your energy not into complaining to BBB and FTC but instead spend your time looking for someone capable who will get the job done.

oDesk has always been my "go to" site for outsourcers.

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rlcf

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Derek S

This is part of the reason you should always give a contractor some sort of test run before hiring them for your main job.

I always give my guys a trial job before I move them on to the real deal.

Yup I always give them a trial job to complete, then I will make my final decision on whether or not I want to hire them.

Cheers,
Daniel

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David Keith

11 years ago

for the life of me i dont understand business owners who hire employees and then expect someone else to accept the risk when the employee dosn't work out.

if you are hiring people, you take on responsibility and some risk. If you make poor hiring decisions, don't blame other people...look in the mirror and figure out what you did wrong so you can do better next time.

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FirstSocialApps

11 years ago

Originally Posted by David Keith

for the life of me i dont understand business owners who hire employees and then expect someone else to accept the risk when the employee dosn't work out.

if you are hiring people, you take on responsibility and some risk. If you make poor hiring decisions, don't blame other people...look in the mirror and figure out what you did wrong so you can do better next time.

I use to be a full time freelance worker (on Elance, and the former vWorker)
First off let me say that NO freelance site offered the kind of service that vWorker did. Ok that being said I totally have to agree with David here. Often you hear people who complain, my worker sucked, he didnt do XXX , he did YYY, bla bla.

But then you ask some questions and the whole picture becomes clear.

Q) Where was the worker from: A: India, Pakistan, .. some other 3rd world developing country.

Q) How much did you pay him: A: $8 an hour.

Simple fact is many of the people who complain about there freelancer experience are the people who hired a distant worker at a super low rate. Guess what people you get what you pay for. Regardless of what people think, freelance sites are NOT a place to get professional work for minimum wage. Sure it might work out sometimes for you, but in the end your going to get screwed. Want quality work? Hire a worker in your country, and pay a reasonable rate.

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onSubie

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave90210

If Odesk doesn't return my money I plan on filing complaints with the FTC and the BBB.

I'm sure oDesk is well protected by being a facilitator and not the entity you had a contract with.

You would have the same problem suing Craigslist if you got scammed after answering a classified ad.

You would have to show that oDesk is somehow negligent and that, despite your own due diligence (which you actually did not do), caused or contributed to you getting scammed.

Clearly they are not responsible and their ToS advises users of different ways to protect themselves from scams.

Your FTC and BBB complaint should be aimed at the entity who scammed you, not the place the scammer chose to advertise.

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Dave90210

11 years ago

Craigslist doesn't charge money for listings. When you pay for a service you expect some kind of protection and policing of scamming programmers. I did do my due diligence which I did do, I read the feedback, looked at his portfolio, he was the only one who sounded like he knew what a product API was.

The contractor lied to me and told me he wasn't a part of a agency, but after I hired him he contacted me on a agency skype account. I specifically told him I will not work with anyone associated with an agency and it's also in the contract.

What's the purpose of the contract if the programmer breaks it and isn't liable in any way?

If I'm unable to warn other Odesk contractors from this programmer then there is a major problem. I'm unable to leave feedback for this programmer.

My FTC and BBB complaint will be aimed at Odesk since they transferred the money, took my money and transaction fees, they are on American soil the contractor is not

Originally Posted by onSubie

I'm sure oDesk is well protected by being a facilitator and not the entity you had a contract with.

You would have the same problem suing Craigslist if you got scammed after answering a classified ad.

You would have to show that oDesk is somehow negligent and that, despite your own due diligence (which you actually did not do), caused or contributed to you getting scammed.

Clearly they are not responsible and their ToS advises users of different ways to protect themselves from scams.

Your FTC and BBB complaint should be aimed at the entity who scammed you, not the place the scammer chose to advertise.

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David Keith

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave90210

The contractor lied to me and told me he wasn't a part of a agency, but after I hired him he contacted me on a agency skype account. I specifically told him I will not work with anyone associated with an agency and it's also in the contract.

and did you end the contract immediately after he contacted you via the agency skype account?

one of the first things you should always do once a contractor is chosen is discuss the project with them in great detail...often times via skype. So i am guessing you knew before he did much if any work that he was with an agency. if that was a deal breaker for you, why did you let him bill you.. be a manager and end the contract that very second. problem solved.

i have used odesk for multiple 6 figures over many years. i have fired many a contractor withing hours of hiring him because i realized for whatever reason we were not on the same page.

i can tell from your attitude that you have not yet taken your share of the responsibility (which in my mind is near 100%) and you are just looking for someone to blame for your inability to properly manage the hiring risks of YOUR business.

if you want continue to wait for odesk, the FTC,.... anyone else to make sure you can't hire people who dont meet your expectation then you will have a long wait sir.

btw, the opportunity cost of your time for you to even attempt any meaningful efforts involving the ftc and such would be much better spent learning a few tricks of the trade about outsourcing.

I strongly suggest you spend that time using the search function on this forum for "outsourcing tips". That would be a much wiser use of your time and would serve you much better for many years to come.

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onSubie

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave90210

My FTC and BBB complaint will be aimed at Odesk since they transferred the money, took my money and transaction fees, they are on American soil the contractor is not

These are the terms you expressly acknowledged, understood and agreed to when you used ODesk:

4. ACKNOWLEDGMENTS BY USER OF ODESK'S ROLE.
4.1 Service Contracts.
User expressly acknowledges, agrees and understands that:
(i) the oDesk Platform is merely a venue where Users may act as Clients or Contractors;
(ii) oDesk is not a party to any Service Contracts between Clients and Contractors;
(iii) User recognizes, acknowledges and agrees that User is not an employee of oDesk and that oDesk does not, in any way, supervise, direct, or control User's work or Services;
(iv) oDesk shall not have any liability or obligations under or related to Service Contracts or any acts or omissions by Users;
(v) oDesk has no control over Contractors or over the Services promised or rendered by Contractors; and,
(vi) oDesk makes no representations as to the reliability, capability, or qualifications of any Contractor or the quality, security or legality of any Services, and oDesk disclaims any and all liability relating thereto.

Your contract is with the worker not Odesk. You would have to show that Odesk was deliberately and willfully negligent.

But that doesn't stop you from being able to complain.

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GoodFE

11 years ago

As others have mentioned, it is best to hire the prospective for a smaller 'trial job'. It's not a perfect system but probably the best option available.

I guess its too late now, but my advice would be to chalk it up to experience.

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jrarticlez

11 years ago

I would think it depends on what type of work was being contracted for. I myself sell on Amazon and use a very competent person on Odesk that handles my files and inventory for me. It's been over a year so far and she is also helping me with other ventures on the net.
However, I did have someone else that was going to design a website and from my questions and his answers I could tell something was lost in conversation. In so many ways you do get what you pay for.
Cheers Jules !!

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sal64

11 years ago

Part of a major with outsourcing in general... many freelancers are just looking for extra $$ until they get a real job. So it's hard to find good ones.

Sal

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

I don't think it's fair for you to ask us not to use Odesk over one incident, many of us had good results with Odesk. You have to use due diligence when hiring, and you should have stopped the job, the minute the worker started giving you problems. Also you have to release the payment after the job is done, not sure how he got your money first.

There are two sides to every story, and I know that clients can be impossible with their demands. Hopefully you didn't lose alot, but you have to be careful with every freelance site you use.

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Dave90210

11 years ago

I never asked anyone not to use them I just don't recommend it and it's my opinion. In my opinion I think having a contract with no penalties for reneging on a contract is outrageous.

Also to answer the above person yes it is a venue but like Craigslist or other FREE venues they should not charge fees etc and have contracts if theirs little or no protection for the person hiring the contractor. I would not expect a free venue to be responsible but as soon as you start charging me fees then I expect a level of policing.

Also Odesk promised me in a phone call if the programmer refused to return the funds they would do something about it. They did not follow through at all on their promise.

Also again and I will not repeat myself I'm unable to give this programmer negative feedback to warn other potential employers.

Since I'm unable to give feedback and odesk in my opinion has very poor customer protection.

Also again I never ever once had any problems with other freelancer sites and I've been in the business since 1997. At least the other sites allow any employer to leave feedback on bad programmers

Originally Posted by Alex Blades

I don't think it's fair for you to ask us not to use Odesk over one incident, many of us had good results with Odesk. You have to use due diligence when hiring, and you should have stopped the job, the minute the worker started giving you problems. Also you have to release the payment after the job is done, not sure how he got your money first.

There are two sides to every story, and I know that clients can be impossible with their demands. Hopefully you didn't lose alot, but you have to be careful with every freelance site you use.

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mikeac

11 years ago

I use odesk all the time and never had any problems. (Knock on Wood) Rule#1 Always give your contractor a test run to see if their capable. Rule #2 *And The Most Important* NEVER PAY YOUR CONTRACTOR UP FRONT. NEVER. You will have no protection if they screw you, and that goes for real life also. Always pay when the job is complete to your satisfaction

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Not sure why they would not allow you to leave feedback, it doesn't make sense. You need to calm down, you are letting this eat you up inside. Go and drink a nice cup of tea, and try calling Odesk again, and see if they can bring a reasonable end to this.

I don't think Odesk is going to screw a buyer just to side with a seller.

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onegoodman

11 years ago

I used to use Odesk heavily but my recent incident with their support dropped my interest down.

Their TOS, user to recommend buyer not to pay up front payment (it seems to be changed), I was trying to hire someone for a fixed job, and he asked for upfront payment, and i mentioned i highlighted in my job I don't pay up front and it is not recommend by odesk (I have been using them for over 3 years).

So, the freelancer insulted me, I contacted their support and mentioned what happened ( it is all documented by messages). The rude support, didn't only ignored my complaint about the freelancer who just joined, but start emailing me back and forth that odesk has no what so ever recommendation about upfront payment.

Thats wasn't the end of it, even though I did explain that i understand the changes, and i will not highlight that for a freelancer, the helpdesk couldn't help himself emailing me again and again ( 5 messages one every few hours ).

He finally said as of the insulation we will warn the freelancer not to do that again ?! Seriously ?! well good luck with that.

Now, thanks to them i am using other sits like elance and freelancer, and the both working great for me

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Lambert Klein

11 years ago

You can't leave a bad review on this site either. They just remove it.

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dennis09

11 years ago

I don't see how ODesk is to blame for this. If you were hiring hourly you would've been able to see screenshots of exactly what they are doing on the clock. If he was ignoring you or not following your instructions then you should've ended the contract on the spot to stop them from logging hours.

If you used a set price contract then you also have the option of rejecting the work. A fixed price contract allows YOU to choose when, how much, and if you want to pay for the work done. This would've been the best way to go.

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clever7

11 years ago

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I was a victim of a horrible service provider many years ago and Odesk didn't protect me. They are irresponsible. Many of their sellers are thieves, but they don’t care. They don’t protect their customers. If you are lucky you may find honest people. Otherwise, you’ll have to bear all problems alone, without any protection.

This site simply collects service providers and collects the money from customers like a bank. Since it doesn’t protect the customer in any way, the site is totally unnecessary for a customer. This is something you can understand only when you are a victim of a bad service provider.

If you are not glad with the service, this is your problem. They don’t care. So, why do you need them?

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dennis09

11 years ago

Originally Posted by clever7

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I was a victim of a horrible service provider many years ago and Odesk didn't protect me. They are irresponsible. Many of their sellers are thieves, but they don’t care. They don’t protect their customers. If you are lucky you may find honest people. Otherwise, you’ll have to bear all problems alone, without any protection.

This site simply collects service providers and collects the money from customers like a bank. Since it doesn’t protect the customer in any way, the site is totally unnecessary for a customer. This is something you can understand only when you are a victim of a bad service provider.

If you are not glad with the service, this is your problem. They don’t care. So, why do you need them?

I think you missed something

Originally Posted by onSubie

These are the terms you expressly acknowledged, understood and agreed to when you used ODesk:

4. ACKNOWLEDGMENTS BY USER OF ODESK'S ROLE.
4.1 Service Contracts.
User expressly acknowledges, agrees and understands that:
(i) the oDesk Platform is merely a venue where Users may act as Clients or Contractors;
(ii) oDesk is not a party to any Service Contracts between Clients and Contractors;
(iii) User recognizes, acknowledges and agrees that User is not an employee of oDesk and that oDesk does not, in any way, supervise, direct, or control User's work or Services;
(iv) oDesk shall not have any liability or obligations under or related to Service Contracts or any acts or omissions by Users;
(v) oDesk has no control over Contractors or over the Services promised or rendered by Contractors; and,
(vi) oDesk makes no representations as to the reliability, capability, or qualifications of any Contractor or the quality, security or legality of any Services, and oDesk disclaims any and all liability relating thereto.

Your contract is with the worker not Odesk.

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Paul Gram

11 years ago

Any time I use Odesk, I never pay a dime until the work is delivered to my satisfaction. That way, you are 100% protected.

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SamuelCarter

11 years ago

I also had a nightmare on online-street with odesk. Now yes i understand odesk is not resposible and you as the client must make sure you are careful when hiring.

However some times you do come across some bad cookies.Which i certainly did. The issue i do not like is, which was already mentioned, when leaving a review. The contractor has the ability to make the comment private. This is frustrating as the contractor can then go again and take advantage of clients and repeat the the same dishonest workings.

So, this certainly needs to change!

Samuel

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jcoutu

11 years ago

I assume that this project is an hourly project and not a fixed price project on oDesk.

For fixed price projects you are protected as the contractor does not have to be paid until the project is complete. If you have paid before the project is completed, you need to make sure that you have tested the work.

For hourly projects, you need to check their work and don't let them work too long if their work is not up to par. oDesk's rules state that it's your responsibility:

For Hourly-Rate Contracts only, Clients may dispute hours during the four (4) days following the close of a weekly invoice period. It is the Client’s responsibility to review the Work Diary and Time Log of every Contract on a weekly basis and to file any disputes on a timely basis. Once the dispute period has passed, the charges are accepted by the Client and can no longer be disputed and can only be refunded by the Contractor. Disputes can only address the hours billed, not the quality of the work performed or deliverables.

I was a technical arbitrator at vWorker. If you are hiring someone on an hourly basis, you need to watch them carefully, especially if you have not worked with them before. Someone else also mentioned about hiring someone for a short fixed price project to see if they can do the work.

I'm not sure why you are unable to leave feedback. Was the project already completed and the money released?

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seobro

11 years ago

I do business with people here in america. There is always the option of taking them to small claims court if they do not honor the contract that they did sign. Good luck getting your money from a firm that is over seas. Basically, you lose both time and money. Remember, you get that for which you pay. Expect buggy poorly commented code from inexpensive programmers.

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kenwarrior

11 years ago

I've had good experiences with freelancer.com for graphic design and wordpress template modifications, not so good with article writers from overseas no matter how good they claim their English is. I've also found the payment system to be secure, pay using milestones, don't pay if you are not satisfied

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Jeffery

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave90210

In my opinion I don't recommend anyone do business with Odesk. I used to use Scriptlance and the had much better protection from scammer contractors unfortunately they where bought out by someone else. In my case Odesk seemed to side with the foreign contractor than the buyer.

If you call them they almost never answer the phone. I got through once and spoke to David he told me to contact the contractor and if he refuses to give back the money he would help me out. The contractor refused to give me back the money and I called and emailed to speak to David and now David is nowhere to be found.

The contractor in my case ignored all my instructions and did what he wanted to do. I asked him not to do specific things and he did them anyway. After some time I noticed this contractor was not capable nor did he want to follow instructions I told him to stop what he was doing and return the money.

If Odesk doesn't return my money I plan on filing complaints with the FTC and the BBB.

Get this I'm not even able to leave a review even though I got scammed by the programmer. At this point the programmer has ignored all messages I've sent to him on the site and Odesk sent me a message that I must contact the programmer and not them to resolve the issue. Since I can't leave a review this programmer is free to scam other Odesk buyers.

In my opinion I recommend that you do business with a Warrior that has a verifiable reputation in good standing here in the Warriors For Hire section. You may run into a problem, but you can always discuss it with them in their thread as long as it is a reasonable and civil discussion. That would be the norm even when no problem exists.

When you go to any site such as oDesk that has a TOS that essentially says "You Are On Your Own Here" and you get burned - consider that you were forewarned, you decided to light a match, and burned yourself.

What happened (if it really happened) is not good and your followup with oDesk is not good, but the TOS implied that it may not be good.

There are some very experienced and astute business people giving you some very good advise and they are 100% correct about the trial, move on, etc., because that is the norm in this business. You did not do the same because you are not very experienced and astute regarding out sourcing.

What you did to yourself should be a learning experience and since this is your business and your business alone I would suggest that you man up, take responsibility for your own business and take responsibility for your own actions...

Do not mean to sound harsh to the point that I sound like I am belittling you in any way. Rather, I hope what you take from this is if Warriors are so important to you that you needed to complain to Warriors about the way you conducted your business..

why didn't you just hire a Warrior in the first place?

Jeffery 100% :-)

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