Your Thoughts On No-Refund Policies Please

11 years ago

I don't buy products without a refund policy. Makes them seem immediately suspect. If the creator doesn't believe in his product, why would I?

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Willie Crawford 11 years ago

Originally Posted by GobBluthJD

I don't buy products without a refund policy. Makes them seem immediately suspect. If the creator doesn't believe in his product, why would I?

Playing devil's advocate...

Some products require a lot of outlay on the part of the product
owner... some are services, and some are licenses that can't be
easily recycled.

I do understand your point though. We, as sales people, are
taught risk-reversal!

Willie
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- TheFreeman 11 years ago
  
  I agree with that; the creator either believe in himself and his product or he doesn't.
  
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  CDarklock 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TheFreeman
  
  I agree with that; the creator either believe in himself and his product or he doesn't.
  
  If I know my product works, then the only possible reason you could want your money back is because you are too stupid or lazy to use it.
  
  This is not my problem. You paid me to tell you what to do, and I did. That was the deal. I should not have to pay you for being too stupid and lazy to do it.
  
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oldwarrioruser1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by GobBluthJD

I don't buy products without a refund policy. Makes them seem immediately suspect. If the creator doesn't believe in his product, why would I?

I don't offer refunds and I completely believe in my products. Just check my first WSO, I've helped hundreds make their first dollar online.

As Will said, too many serial refunders. I don't want to deal with people who purchase my product and request a refund 1 minute later. I clearly state no refund on my sales page and people STILL email me within minutes of purchasing telling me "it isn't what they expected and want their money back".

Really? It's impossible for you to review my product within 1 minute of downloading.

So some file a Paypal dispute and I've won every single one of them. If you aren't sure you want a product, then don't buy it. As someone said, do some research on the person selling the product. If you aren't 100% sure you will be using the product, don't buy it.

We are all adults here. We can live with our decisions.

Originally Posted by WeaverJ972

If a product doesn't have a refund policy, I'm not buying no matter what! It's just as simple as that. There is something wrong if they don't offer a refund if the customer is unsatisfied. I think many people today have forgotten that the key to lasting success is to provide high-quality products that produce happy customers, not to scam a bunch of people and then head for the hills. That mentality really irks me.

While I realize that you cannot please everyone, I would hope that people would a least try to please the people who can be pleased.

Please see my response above. How can you assume something is wrong if the vendor is trying to avoid serial refunders?

I can't return video games I buy. Should I stop buying video games? Those video games must not be what they say they are. Even though I've seen the game trailer and I've played the previous versions.. there are absolutely no refunds on video games. Something is wrong there.

The video game industry is a scam because you can't return a game.

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WillR

11 years ago

As an affiliate it would actually raise an alarm for me if one of the selling points is that the product has a no refund policy. It makes me feel they are not as confident in their product as they should be OR they have experienced a lot of refunds in the past. Either way that does not leave me feeling very confident in their product.

I believe a customer should be entitled to a refund if they have not received what they were promised, such as in the example you used in your original post.

Having said that there are definitely serial refunders in our industry and it comes with the territory. I realize that and so with a lot of my products I will now use an 'it works as advertised' type refund policy. So people still have the right to a refund if what I deliver them is not exactly what I promised them on the salespage... and rightly so. If the product is not as promised then people should always be able to get their money back. This also means if you deliver exactly what was promised you don't have to worry about processing any refunds. I find this the fairest refund policy of the lot. I don't like 'change of mind' refunds because people are old and mature enough to make their own buying decision and take responsibility for it.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

... So people still have the right to a refund if what I deliver them is not exactly what I promised them on the salespage... and rightly so. If the product is not as promised then people should always be able to get their money back.

Yeah, I agree.

Part of the problem is that some marketers use blind copy or copy so
nebulous that the customer is really not sure WHAT they are buying

Many customer also expect the product to be easier to use,
"no work" or to contain something revolutionary... which is often
not the case.

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The Great Gordino

11 years ago

my view is that the worries created by lack of refund are worse than potential fraudulent refunds, so I certainly wouldn't see an absence of refund policy as a sales positive!

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by The Great Gordino

my view is that the worries created by lack of refund are worse than potential fraudulent refunds, so I certainly wouldn't see an absence of refund policy as a sales positive!

It's a positive to some who put in a LOT of work promoting the product,
perhaps even creating a custom bonus just for a launch. To those
people, it's an assurance that their efforts are less-likely to be wasted.

Willie

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The Great Gordino

11 years ago

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agmccall

11 years ago

I would like to be able to implement a refund policy of 60 days, but you are not eligible for that refund for 30 days. So, you buy my product but you have to use it for 30 days and then if if is not what it says it is then you can ask for a refund.

I think this type of policy would make buyers feel more secure and the serial refunders look elsewhere.

Al

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by agmccall

I would like to be able to implement a refund policy of 60 days, but you are not eligible for that refund for 30 days. So, you buy my product but you have to use it for 30 days and then if if is not what it says it is then you can ask for a refund.

I think this type of policy would make buyers feel more secure and the serial refunders look elsewhere.

Al

I don't think that most merchant account providers, and third-party
processors would go along with that though Al.

Willie

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Rod Cortez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by agmccall

I would like to be able to implement a refund policy of 60 days, but you are not eligible for that refund for 30 days. So, you buy my product but you have to use it for 30 days and then if if is not what it says it is then you can ask for a refund.

I think this type of policy would make buyers feel more secure and the serial refunders look elsewhere.

Al

Though that sounds like it may work in theory, you'd better double check with the commerce laws in your jurisdiction. In some places, a customer has the right to a refund even if you don't state one, or have a different stated policy.

Also, as CDarklock mentioned, you might have a specific refund policy, but the financial institution that backs the customer's credit or debit card still might give the customer their money back.

Most of my products (and some of my services) have some type of stated refund policy.

Some of them don't. It depends on the nature of the product or service.

I offer coaching in the dating market and people can get a free 15 minute initial consultation. But once you decide to hire me it is understood between both parties that there is no refund given for my time. However, there are exceptions (death in the family, car accident, etc.).

RoD

Originally Posted by Gary Ning Lo

Don't quite agree with this model.

Yes it will bring you more affiliates but what about conversion? I think that preventing refunds will greatly decrease conversion as there's this sort of "risk factor" involved...

Also I never purchase something without a refund policy...You never know..

Cheers,

Gary

The only real way to know the answer to this is to split-test it. I have found that sometimes NOT offering a refund has increased my conversions, in the long term. Go figure.

RoD

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Willie Crawford

Yeah, I agree.

Part of the problem is that some marketers use blind copy or copy so
nebulous that the customer is really not sure WHAT they are buying

Many customer also expect the product to be easier to use,
"no work" or to contain something revolutionary... which is often
not the case.

Why anyone would use blind copy to sell a product is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong...

A well-positioned blind solo ad can work wonders.

But once you get prospects onto your sales page and/or VSL, you have to be transparent at some point.

If you're not, a money back guarantee should be mandatory.

Mark

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Mark Pescetti

11 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

I realize that and so with a lot of my products I will now use an 'it works as advertised' type refund policy. So people still have the right to a refund if what I deliver them is not exactly what I promised them on the salespage... and rightly so.

Clearly communicating what your product is - so people buy it for the right reasons is key. Your sales copy needs to accurately reflect what you're selling. And as long as your product meets the expectations you've taken the time to hook people with, your refund percentages will be low.

Sure...

There are always people in IM who refund - just because they can.

However...

There are WAY more people who will dig the hell out of your product and feel massively appreciative that they found it.

Focus on them.

A good guarantee should always express that, "If you don't receive the REAL benefits I've promised, as advertised, I don't want to keep a cent of your money."

Use the guarantee to enhance the selling process. And Will's right, the lack of a guarantee, especially these days, will raise a lot of red flags with affiliates and customers alike.

Mark

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ronrule

11 years ago

I would neither create a product with a no refund policy, or promote one as an affiliate. Building a responsive affiliate network takes time - the last thing you want is to promote something people are dissatisfied with and lose credibility with the audience you've built because there is no path for them to get their money back.

As for product creation itself, I do usually put stipulations on refunds ... for example, if it's a strategy I stipulate in the refund policy that I'll refund if you actually try it and it doesn't work for you. Show me you actually did what I taught and if it didn't work for you, by all means you deserve your money back. But if you only bought it to "peek", screw ya, I don't take the time to research and publish my knowledge just to give it away.

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Greg guitar

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ronrule

Show me you actually did what I taught and if it didn't work for you, by all means you deserve your money back. But if you only bought it to "peek", screw ya, I don't take the time to research and publish my knowledge just to give it away.

I can understand and sympathize with your feelings. But nonetheless, you'd have to have a great reputation or a fantastic sales page for me to take the risk if I didn't know you. I think this type of policy, while understandable from the seller's point of view, is almost the same as a no refund policy from the buyer's point of view.

I do not say that as a serial refunder; I rarely refund anything, even the stuff that falls short of it's promised benefits, if I got anything from it at all.

I say it because the purpose of a refund is to take the risk out of the purchase (risk reversal). Your policy puts all the risk on me, since you retain the right to deny my refund request, and puts me in the potentially humiliating position of having to prove to you that I did everything you required of me.

Which brings me to another aspect of it that I dislike: many times you don't really know exactly what will be required of you when you buy. If it's a method you don't feel comfortable with as you go through it, and takes 10 hours to implement, then going for the refund basically requires me to work for $2.70 per hour, or zero, should you disagree that I properly followed all your steps, and decide that I shouldn't be refunded.

Unconditional is the only way to go, if you are going to have a refund policy. From your own point of view, would you really want to have to check over the work of anyone who asks for a refund? You probably wouldn't want to, which would mean the "prove you followed the steps" policy is really just there to discourage refunds rather than make sure they are legitimate.

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wlasikiewicz

11 years ago

In my view, if your selling an electronic product like a WSO then there should be no refunds allowed as an electronic product cannot be returned to the seller.

Thats just my view.

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WillR

11 years ago

Originally Posted by wlasikiewicz

In my view, if your selling an electronic product like a WSO then there should be no refunds allowed as an electronic product cannot be returned to the seller.

Thats just my view.

If I come to your restaurant and order the curry and find a hair 3/4 of the way through the dish, obviously I can't regurgitate that food for you but should I not still get a refund because the hair was never promised in the dish I bought?

If something is not as it was promised then a refund should be issued wether it is a physical product or digital product.

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Young Financier

11 years ago

Originally Posted by wlasikiewicz

In my view, if your selling an electronic product like a WSO then there should be no refunds allowed as an electronic product cannot be returned to the seller.

Thats just my view.

One part of me agrees with that. But another part of me sees people who will knowingly create crap products and use their product being electronic to justify not refunding a customer.

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IzzuDino

11 years ago

Refund policies underline the product creator's confidence in his products. Then again I agree that there are "clowns" out there who are deliberately abusing the system.

Which is why I think those refund policies where you have to show prove you actually tried the product before you can claim a refund is kinda good. Does not work with every product/service out there though...

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Joel Young 11 years ago

The kind of no-refund policy I don't offer is the "no questions asked" or "for any reason or no reason" type. That sort of policy is a feeding frenzy for the serial refunders. If you buy a product from me, and actually take whatever steps it requires to make it work, within a reasonable period of time, then okay, I'll refund you if it doesn't deliver. Otherwise, no.

Of course everything else must be in place to support such a policy. Shoddy products and customer service deserve what they get.
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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Willie Crawford

Still, it feels like there has to be something wrong in the process, if the seller has to resort to a no-refund policy.

There's no such thing as a no-refund policy. Somewhere in the chain of money services, someone will give the customer a refund and the vendor will have to fight with them if he doesn't like it.

Claiming there is a no-refund policy, however, gets your prospective customer to buy-in to the idea that he can't have a refund - ever, for any reason - and he is okay with that.

Which dramatically reduces your refund rates, and the potential sales it costs you were risky ones anyway. After all, those were people thinking "I will only buy if I can get a refund," and that is not a very high-quality conversion. You're better off without those sales.

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Lance K

11 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There's no such thing as a no-refund policy. Somewhere in the chain of money services, someone will give the customer a refund and the vendor will have to fight with them if he doesn't like it.

Claiming there is a no-refund policy, however, gets your prospective customer to buy-in to the idea that he can't have a refund - ever, for any reason - and he is okay with that.

Which dramatically reduces your refund rates, and the potential sales it costs you were risky ones anyway. After all, those were people thinking "I will only buy if I can get a refund," and that is not a very high-quality conversion. You're better off without those sales.

Solid points.

Devil's advocate - what if 1 out of every 100 of those lost sales is someone who is just a little skeptical, but if your product delivers as promised ends up spending $100s or $1,000s with you in the future?

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Devil's advocate - what if 1 out of every 100 of those lost sales is someone who is just a little skeptical, but if your product delivers as promised ends up spending $100s or $1,000s with you in the future?

I don't care. It's not about the money. It's about faith and trust. If you don't trust me enough to buy now unless I have a refund policy, then fare thee well and don't let the door hit you in the arse. Come back when you trust me. I am of the opinion that it is a Bad Idea to buy from people you don't trust, anyway, and that idea doesn't magically become better if the person you don't trust is me. If it were someone else, I would tell you not to buy, so it's just hypocritical for me to suggest you should buy from me regardless.

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StatCentric

11 years ago

I personally don't see a problem with not offering a refund. If your product has a solid demo in which the buyer can ascertain the quality of it, I think it's reasonable. I find it hard to trust people enough to offer an unconditional refund.

I have another company that sells a purely digital product and it has never been an issue. Not having a refund encourages people to work through any initial issues they might have with the product instead of jumping ship at the first sign of trouble. It also prevents them from buying it with the intent to refund and still use it. I've also had issues with piracy, so I'm concerned about people who aren't willing to use a stolen credit card, but will buy, refund, and then redistribute. I think it depends on whether you are selling an ebook vs. something like something photography. In my case it's images, so results may vary.

I have had a few people try to get a refund anyway. One of them was actually using the images on his site but had claimed he never even downloaded them.

That being said, I agree with others that people are more likely to buy with a refund policy. Perhaps if I tried offering one for the images, maybe I would see more benefit than harm. I think with a SAAS it's much easier to offer a refund because you can just cut off access to the product.

I've never asked to refund any of the things I've bought as far as digital products that I can remember. Even one that was poor, I was reluctant to ask for whatever reason. Perhaps because the previous products from the same seller were so good I just sucked it up.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by StatCentric

I've never asked to refund any of the things I've bought as far as digital products that I can remember. Even one that was poor, I was reluctant to ask for whatever reason. Perhaps because the previous products from the same seller were so good I just sucked it up.

I've never asked for a refund either... in 17 years of buying products and services online... that I can recall. I'm not exactly sure why because I HAVE purchased product that were shoddy or delivered no real value.

I think that it's both my dislike for refunds as a merchant, and the pig-headed belief that I should be able to read a sales page well enough to know what I'm buying before I buy it

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gcbmark20

11 years ago

Hi,

I suppose if you're banking on this one amazing product
being the making of you're online business then I suppose this
is why this policy has been produced by the product creator.

For those of us who have created products before ourselves
we know that once you get into the swing of 'Product Creation'...

...you know that some are going to better then others.

It's as simple as that really.

You can always create more products in a matter of weeks anyway.

I suppose it's just a case of them knowing deep down that they haven't
put their heart & soul into it and just want to add another string to their
bow so to speak.

Put your best product foot forward & I can bet ya that you're refund
rates will be as low as possible anyway!

All the best everyone.
Gavin

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James Clark 11 years ago

Personally, I would not buy a product without a re-fund policy. If I remember correctly only ask for one refund. And that was a 97.00 dollar product from click-bank. When I open the zip file and start watching the videos. I new all that stuff. So I ask for a refund and got it quickly.

Now, if someone download a product and after a few minutes ask for a refund I would be suspecting of that also. I asked for a refund the next day.
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HypnoHugh

11 years ago

I think we have to view refunds as a cost of business and it's a small price to pay considering how low the costs of digital products are.

Also by not having a refund policy you lose more in sales that you gain by less refunds.

If refunds are high you need to look at what's going wrong with the product.

A compromise may be to have a conditional refund rather than unconditional i.e. prove you have used it.

However with many IM products the sales copy is very ambiguous so i would be loath to buy a product without a refund policy.

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Kay King

11 years ago

it feels like there has to be something wrong
in the proccess, if the seller has to resort to a
no-refund policy.

Sounds like a gimmick - why does seller mention refunds at all if it's not a feature? The absence of a refund policy/guarantee would do the same thing without the negative impact of "no".

Just once - I'd like to see a sales page where refunds were not mentioned/promised/guaranteed and where the seller assumed his product was good enough to buy and keep.

kay

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Just once - I'd like to see a sales page where refunds were not mentioned/promised/guaranteed and where the seller assumed his product was good enough to buy and keep.

I have only put a refund policy on one sales page, and my refund rates for that product were about ten times normal. Now I don't say anything. The word "refund" never even appears on my sales pages. Ever.

The word "cocksucker," on the other hand, has been known to make an occasional appearance.

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Lance K

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sounds like a gimmick - why does seller mention refunds at all if it's not a feature? The absence of a refund policy/guarantee would do the same thing without the negative impact of "no".

Just once - I'd like to see a sales page where refunds were not mentioned/promised/guaranteed and where the seller assumed his product was good enough to buy and keep.

kay

Yes, but most salespeople don't want to leave any unhandled objections in their prospective customer's mind.

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Don Grace

11 years ago

Hey Willie,

About 4 years ago I wrote the copy for a high end 2k product for a "gooroo" you know. In fact I think you mailed for us.

Anyhow it was one of the first products I know of to go with a no refund policy. And the tone was even a bit snarky. It worked like a champ and brought in the kind of people we wanted as opposed to crybaby tire kickers. And we where also very clear about what you get as opposed to blind copy.

So I'm all for it. After all we're selling educational products. When was the last time Harvard gave out refunds? It's up to the individual to take action on what is learned.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Don Grace

Hey Willie,

About 4 years ago I wrote the copy for a high end 2k product for a "gooroo" you know. In fact I think you mailed for us.

Anyhow it was one of the first products I know of to go with a no refund policy. And the tone was even a bit snarky. It worked like a champ and brought in the kind of people we wanted as opposed to crybaby tire kickers. And we where also very clear about what you get as opposed to blind copy.

So I'm all for it. After all we're selling educational products. When was the last time Harvard gave out refunds? It's up to the individual to take action on what is learned.

I hear you, and know that with the right words you'll weed out some of those inclined to refund before they even purchase.

However, as CDarklock pointed out the customer always seems to have recourse. Many credit card issuers just want the customer to say that it was "not what they expected" and they will push a chargeback through. I have noticed Paypal seems to be siding with the merchant in the case of digital products a lot more now lately... but that may not be an accurate perception.

Willie

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CDarklock

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Willie Crawford

I have noticed Paypal seems to be siding with the merchant in the case of digital products a lot more now lately... but that may not be an accurate perception.

Digital products are not and have never been covered under buyer protection, which means the buyer cannot legitimately open a dispute about them. If the vendor knows this, he can point it out and the dispute is closed. If he doesn't, it generally doesn't come up, so he usually loses.

More and more PayPal vendors are learning this and saying something. That's why the difference in dispute resolution.

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Adie

11 years ago

I think it's scary so I never tried any product with zero refund policy....

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Alex Albert

11 years ago

Hi,

Never asked for a refund - without knowing that a product I buy - not working or is not as same that was offered to me or not working like supose to be.

I created many own products and know what are they worth and even give a 30 days refund policies for them, but what I may offer a refund or not - paypal have own rules... many - blackhat grabers - buy your product and in same time or few minutes later ask for a refund - without any past contact with owner - just go to paypal and open dispute...

there are also a people that contact first to support desk and ask for a refund - like some of my customers - so when I contact them and clear more doubts and give my personal support they happy and not want more refund - but sometimes customers cant use buyed product or is to complicated for them - then I refund - and they happy again - and when my new product come - they buy and buy more from me... since they know im honest and can deal all his needs...till they happy...

as for me, personaly, refund should not be avalible for digital downloads goods.

Alex
p.s. sorry for my english, still learning...

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Gary Ning Lo

11 years ago

Don't quite agree with this model.

Yes it will bring you more affiliates but what about conversion? I think that preventing refunds will greatly decrease conversion as there's this sort of "risk factor" involved...

Also I never purchase something without a refund policy...You never know..

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Gary

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MatthewWoodward

11 years ago

I think no refunds are ok only in the circumstance that a fully featured trial is available to the user before hand so they can make an educated purchasing decision before parting with any money.

There should however always be a refund policy if the product doesn't do what it says on the tin or a bug prevents it from working if its software etc

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travlinguy

11 years ago

It depends on the market. I sold a ton of PLR MMR stuff here wholesale. Most offers had more than 100 individual products. I clearly stated in very large text that:

NOTE: Because of the nature of Private Label Rights Products and the sheer number of items in this offer at the LOW, LOW price, there will be no refunds given on this sale. Your questions are welcomed.

I sold hundreds of these deals in 12 categories from PLR articles to MRR software. I had two complaints. One guy wanted a refund because he claimed the software he wanted (one item in 40) didn't work. I sent him a version that worked and all was well. The other said he didn't get his download link and opened a PayPal dispute after it was clear that he actually had downloaded everything. I sent him the link anyway and copied the email to Paypal. He didn't win the dispute.

I'll offer a refund in a market that's reasonable. But the MMO crowd, No way. The few WSOs I put up here all had fairly high refund rates, though lower than average for the MMO market. I don't create products for this market anymore so it's not really an issue. I'm thinking of offering something here in a month or two. If I do I'll have to offer a refund with Warrior + and JVZ. That's the game.

Any other market it's not an issue as the majority of the clientele isn't out to game the system.

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John Romaine

11 years ago

There's no such thing as "no refund".

What your sales page says and what your credit card company or payment service provider says are two very different things.

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Praveen Ben

11 years ago

Friction & Anxiety are the two crucial factors for the sales decision.
The best way to counteract these forces as marketer is by offering refund policy as advocated by jay Abraham a renowned marketing expert.
No refund policy = Lesser conversion rates
It has been proved that the proportion of sales outweighs refunds if any.
NO refund policy = A very bad marketing strategy

This is what I know Willie! What do you want to say?

Praveen Ben

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Praveen Ben

Friction & Anxiety are the two crucial factors for the sales decision.
The best way to counteract these forces as marketer is by offering refund policy as advocated by jay Abraham a renowned marketing expert.
No refund policy = Lesser conversion rates
It has been proved that the proportion of sales outweighs refunds if any.
NO refund policy = A very bad marketing strategy

This is what I know Willie! What do you want to say?

Praveen Ben

I've studied Jay's materials for decades and agree with much of what
he teaches. He teaches that in most cases, the refund policy for
dissatisfied customer is there any way, provided by the credit card
companies (implicit), so why not make it a selling point (explicit).

Jay, Dan Kennedy, and many others also teach that the longer your
refund period, the lower your refund rates, since people don't feel
rushed to decide if they are satisfied with the product.

Willie

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kencalhn

11 years ago

I've sold with a no-refund policy for my entire 13+ years online fulltime business career and done very well with it. I tried split-testing MBG vs no guarantee for premium webinar training earlier, and found a) no difference/bump in sales conversions and b) 3 refund requests, of dozens of purchases. So at least for my market offering a MBG was not a good idea, so I stopped that test-marketing after a couple of tries, since it doesn't work (contrary to popular wisdom about always offering refunds).

I actively repel freebie-seeking Moron customers, or broke customers who never intended to buy in the first place, by having a clear no-refund policy I avoid the cheapskate serial ripoff customers. I also ban all sales from malaysia indonesia russia china etc to limit risk.

Of thousands of customers I have less than a 1.8% (likely far lower) cb/attempted refund rate, and those people get on my 1sc/company/email/IP block blacklist so they don't darken my doorway. Most of my sales are repeat sales to customers who trust me.

And a key to success in all this is offering generous previews (all the dozens of dvds I've produced I show preview video clips), and/or preview webinars, so they can see a genuinely representative sample of what they're getting. That way I get thrilled customers who behave, who know and value the training/products they buy.

I have no patience for bad "customers", like drunks in a bar it's best to bounce 'em and/or keep 'em from coming in the door. It's absolutely true that 5% problem customers will consume 90% of your customer support time, so I like to avoid having the problem customers in the first place, and work with people who are honest, respectful and value what I can offer. The rest can go ___ ___.

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Aussie_Al

11 years ago

Matt Furey doesn't offer a refund on any of his products - I don't believe he ever has and it hasn't hurt his sales or reputation at all

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Raydal

11 years ago

I never offer refunds on WSO. You can't have a special price and
a refund at the same time. So if you wanted the refund policy then
you buy at the normal price. And my understanding was that WSO
had no-refund built into them until recently I see most people offering
a refund.

But having a "no-refund" policy can mean that you are CONFIDENT
that your product delivers, because refund is not the only recourse for a
dissatisfied customer. It could also be a type of "intimidation" selling
technique.

-Ray Edwards

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Charles E. White 11 years ago

Willie, I saw this posted on Facebook, good post!

Personally, I don't buy anything with a no refund policy. If the creator of the product doesn't have confidence in his product then I don't have confidence in the creator or product either one.
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Rod Cortez 11 years ago

.....and my understanding was that WSO
had no-refund built into them until recently I see most people offering
a refund.

No, that has never been the case in the WSO forum. The refund policy is up to the seller. There is no implied refund or no-refund policy in the WSO forum.

RoD
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Willie Crawford 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

IAnd my understanding was that WSO
had no-refund built into them until recently I see most people offering
a refund.

Some of the platforms that integrate with WSO's actually process
refunds automatically. You have to authorize that when when you
set up your account with those platforms... linking your Paypal
account!

If I am not mistaken, when a sales made by an affiliate is refunded,
and one of these platforms is being used, the money is instantly
pulled from the merchants and the affiliates Paypal accounts.

Willie
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Joe Thio

11 years ago

Although it's frustrating when people refund, I still believe a refund policy is a good thing in most cases. There really are some people who genuinely do not find the product useful, and I don't mind refunding them at all, because it's not like they'll be using the information anyway.

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MackSell

11 years ago

No Refunds! I guess that would reduce conversions dramatically.

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jan roos 11 years ago

When I sold my Physical Affiliate course here on the forum a few years ago I sold it for $97 and no refunds.

I told people exactly what was in the product and I offered no refunds because I knew for a fact there was nobody that can say they knew this already etc because what I did was to take people into my business and taught them exactly how I built my sites and promoted them etc on video.

This was my way of doing it and it worked very well for me. I was not going to let serial refunders get my info for free. I stated everything on the sales page and hardly ever had any problems.

Some people could not get the videos to work etc and they got refunds on a per case basis.

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kencalhn

11 years ago

Offering previews of what they're going to get, that are realistic and honest, DOES mean I have confidence in what I'm selling, as evidenced by thousands of customers and a worldwide strong reputation my company enjoys. It also means I don't waste time selling to insincere people who would try and rip me off.

Giving previews, like on Amazon of sample chapter of Kindle books, is a good way to make sure you're meeting customer needs. And Amazon, Walmart and all others who sell DVDs have a "No Refund on opened DVDs" etc policy, as they should. In this economy there's a lot of ripoff customers who would just try and buy/copy/refund. So that's prohibited.

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Lance K

11 years ago

Why jump straight to a no refund policy? Why not try a conditional guarantee?

Willie, have you noticed a significant drop in conversion rate with the no refund offers you've promoted? If so do you think it was significant enough that you would have still been money ahead with the other offers after figuring in the refunds?

To me, the "no refund policy" as a selling point seems like it would appeal to affiliates who are hustling and going for volume sales to a constant flow of new prospects; rather than to those affiliates who are trying to establish or maintain a relationship with their prospects (whether new or old). Both of which are completely valid affiliate strategies.

Shouldn't the main selling points of an offer be a high quality product with a good reputation behind it & an acceptable EPC?

As for the vendors, there's nothing wrong with them deciding to have a no refund policy. It's up to them. Perhaps they're thinking that they'll attract a few super affiliates with a solid reputation to drive a lot of volume.

It would be interesting to see one of those vendors allow a handful of super affiliates to split test their offer with & without a refund policy to see what effect it has on the promotion's bottom line.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Willie, have you noticed a significant drop in conversion rate with the no refund offers you've promoted?

Lance, I've never promoted a product with a no-refund policy... that I
remember. That's not to say that I never will, but most of the ones
that I've seen lately didn't strike me as something I wanted to offer to
my subscriber, whom I am fairly protective of.

To me, the "no refund policy" as a selling point seems like it would appeal to affiliates who are hustling and going for volume sales to a constant flow of new prospects; rather than to those affiliates who are trying to establish or maintain a relationship with their prospects (whether new or old). Both of which are completely valid affiliate strategies.

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Nightengale 11 years ago

Interesting discussion!

I deliberately chose my niche and business model to help avoid exactly these kinds of problems.

I have a "real" business selling to "real" business people -- that is, I DON'T sell MMO info to wannabes.

My basic product is an annual membership with a mix of physical and downloadable benefits. Brian McLeod makes a VERY good point about physical products. If you sell a physical product, you can legitimately require it's return for a refund. No return, no refund. As he said, make your physical product the main dish and the digital delivery a valuable bonus/extra.

These two steps alone have ensured I've had no refund headaches so far. NONE.

I don't state a refund policy for my membership benefits package. The implication is there is no refund, but if you look at my refund policy posted on another page, you'll see I DO offer a refund within 30 days -- IF they return the physical items.

As others have mentioned, Visa and Mastercard say you DO give refunds, no matter what you say.

I'm about to launch a training course and WILL offer a refund for that. It will be a physical product and I'll offer a 365-day guarantee.

I disagree with Caliban about "don't buy from me if you don't trust me."

Gaining trust can be an enormous hurdle and that first sale with a customer is the hardest. If they're not used to buying online, paying what you're charging or whatever, it can be a big leap for that customer to order from you that first time.

Years ago, I purchased a training course on how to write and publish e-zines from Ali Brown. It was $297 and I wasn't used to paying that for anything online, much less a course on JUST e-zines! I thought it was an outrageous price, although her sales copy had me drooling.

Then she announced a price increase to $497 and I bought right before it went into effect. I was VERY nervous. Would I get it what I ordered? Would it be worth it? Etc.

Well, she delivered and it WAS worth it.

Then I bought another course for $1500 from her. THAT was a huge leap for me too. I'd never spent that kind of money. And like before, I worried. Would she deliver? Would it be what she promised? Etc. (She did and it was.)

And one of the key pieces to the sale was her year-long guarantee. That was a key factor for me.

I've since spent many more tens of thousands of dollars (yes, tens of thousands of dollars!), but those early purchases were key. I was learning to trust enough to buy at those levels. And learning to be willing to spend that kind of money!

It depends a bit on your market and price point. My trade association annual membership dues are $197 which is my lowest-cost item except for my book. $197 is a "throw-away" price, almost an impulse for a serious business owner.

So it depends on your market and what you're selling. But I think it's a mistake to offer NO guarantee on everything you sell.

I don't really see how you can enforce conditions like "Prove you tried it." How does the customer prove it? (Yes, it's more easily "proved" in some cases than others.) The implication though is that the customer is lying or trying to scam you. And as a prospective customer, it puts me on the defensive before I even buy. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I've bought thousands and thousands of dollars worth of digital products. And like Willie, I've never requested a refund. A few of my purchases were a bit shady and I WASN'T happy with them.

But I've never asked for a refund (with the exception of a deposit for an event I couldn't attend) for a few reasons:

1. I'm acutely aware that digital products are mine to keep regardless and I always felt a bit guilty even considering asking for a refund. It just seems too much like stealing.

2. The $10, $47, $37 purchases weren't really worth my hassle to ask for a refund and I moved on.

3. Like Willie, I felt a bit stupid if I got a product that wasn't quite what I expected. "I SHOULD have known that!" or "I knew in my gut something wasn't right, but I bought anyway. Guess I deserve what I get."

Now, if it was a case of non-delivery, bait-and-switch or a product that was completely misrepresented, then that might have been a different story. I'd howl loud and long in that case!

But that never actually happened. And these sometimes-shady products were all low-priced ones: $97 and under. If they'd been more, I might have taken a different view.

While a guarantee on ANY product makes me more comfortable and yes, makes me more likely to buy, it's kind of a moot point. If I want it, I'll buy it. Whether your $47 product has a refund makes little difference to me.

As for coaching, it's much higher-priced and comes with an implicit (and sometimes explicit) "no-refunds" policy. However, I'm super picky about who I buying coaching from and know I can trust them BEFORE I buy. Only in the case of total non-delivery would I consider demanding a refund or doing a chargeback.

One of the things my coach (a multi-millionaire) said that really stood out was "Earmark $20,000/year to just trying things and see what works. You can't worry about losing that money. About 20% of your offerings will lose money, 20% will be out-of-the-park-winners and the rest will just break even. You can't find that 20% if you're not willing to test. You have to be willing to take that $20,000 and just throw it in the trash. Because only testing will bring you the huge wins."

Being told to be willing to throw $20,000 in the trash was an eye-opener! Of course, it's proportional to the size of your business and your revenue, so don't start complaining about not even having $20, much less $20K. But you get the idea....

Michelle
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Lance K

11 years ago

Perhaps a better selling point would be to explain what your normal refund policy is and let affiliates who send you x amount of traffic have the option to offer the alternative as well.

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dp40oz

11 years ago

The problem ive found is that internet marketing and SEO have developed a culture of expected refunds. If I don't put a refund policy on my sales page inevitably the first few questions im asked is "Whats the refund policy". I personally think its ridiculous that a refund policy is expected. On informational products I don't offer refunds. On software I will.

Theres just too many serial refunders around these days who'll take everything from an informational product and then just ask for a refund. I'd rather offer some free copies to reputable people and get some solid reviews to prove the products worth rather than give some serial refunder my hard work for free.

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BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

Reversing the risk back onto the seller doesn't have to automatically equal a refund.

Just sayin'...

Also - if you want to greatly diminish your refund requests, while still providing a guarantee to push wishy-washy or first time buyers off the fence - make your full deliverable a physical product that must be returned.

You can still deliver instant digital access to some or all of the material inside a members area, so they get a great buying experience (and the info they're after). But the Main Product is a physical deliverable - the instant access is just a valuable bonus.

What this strategy amounts to is buying a refund hedge by shipping the refundable product. Even that silly little 1 ounce of effort required on the refunder's part to mail back the ____ eliminates a MASSIVE number of casual refunds.

And that's really what it SHOULD be about IMO - thwarting toxic customers and casual refunders, so we can focus on delivering a superior level of support to our best customers.

Best,

Brian

EDIT TO ADD: BTW - you'll still get casual refunders requesting their money back. Canned support replies work great: "We're sorry you weren't satisfied with your purchase. Simply return the ____ to _____ for a prompt refund." Almost never happens.

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Daniel Evans 11 years ago

Lets not forget there are two types of vendor who propose "guarantees":

* Those who offer them and readily uphold them.

* Those who offer them only as a shill and make it very difficult to initiate a refund - common of those folk who assume their businesses to be running on auto where customers are hard pressed to get a reply to any PM / email / ticket - let alone one that's requesting money back.

There's a proposition of a guarantee and there's an actual guarantee that sees return or compensation willingly granted.

Daniel
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travlinguy

11 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Reversing the risk back onto the seller doesn't have to automatically equal a refund.

Just sayin'...

Also - if you want to greatly diminish your refund requests, while still providing a guarantee to push wishy-washy or first time buyers off the fence - make your full deliverable a physical product that must be returned.

You can still deliver instant digital access to some or all of the material inside a members area, so they get a great buying experience (and the info they're after). But the Main Product is a physical deliverable - the instant access is just a valuable bonus.

What this strategy amounts to is buying a refund hedge by shipping the refundable product. Even that silly little 1 ounce of effort required on the refunder's part to mail back the ____ eliminates a MASSIVE number of casual refunds.

And that's really what it SHOULD be about IMO - thwarting toxic customers and casual refunders, so we can focus on delivering a superior level of support to our best customers.

Best,

Brian

EDIT TO ADD: BTW - you'll still get casual refunders requesting their money back. Canned support replies work great: "We're sorry you weren't satisfied with your purchase. Simply return the ____ to _____ for a prompt refund." Almost never happens.

A little something to add to this. I was looking at some stuff on ebay recently and was surprised at how many sellers accepted returns. One guy though was almost guaranteed bulletproof. Buyer pays return shipping (that's obviously an industry standard) and a 20% restocking fee. I'd guess this guy gets very few returns.

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kencalhn

11 years ago

the main thing, as I've been advised by colleagues, is to TEST what works best. me, I found no bump in sales response rate by offering a MBG, At All.. as most of my buyers are hyper-responsives whom I've earned the trust of, and buy what I produce regardless. Since I didn't see any 5-10%+ bump in sales response with MBG, though refunds from 3 people whom I'd never sold to before, it tells me that MBGs are not good for my niche in my business with my list... but that's not to generalize, it varies widely by list, reputation with your list, niche and other factors.

one thing I've seen in the trading industry I absolutely despise is the "jump through a million hoops conditional refunds", like "ok try it and if you can Prove you tried to take 10 trades and show us account screencaps that you traded this following our directions to the letter, Then we will issue a refund" which is bogus. Conditional refunds I think are bad, because what's the specific criteria/proof that customers actually tried it specifically exactly as you thought they should? lots of room for misinterpretation, I'd either offer a refund or not, but never antagonize by making customers jump thru hoops.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kencalhn

one thing I've seen in the trading industry I absolutely despise is the "jump through a million hoops conditional refunds", like "ok try it and if you can Prove you tried to take 10 trades and show us account screencaps that you traded this following our directions to the letter, Then we will issue a refund" which is bogus. Conditional refunds I think are bad, because what's the specific criteria/proof that customers actually tried it specifically exactly as you thought they should? lots of room for misinterpretation, I'd either offer a refund or not, but never antagonize by making customers jump thru hoops.

I don't like conditional refunds either Ken. When I read them on a
sales page, or hear a speaker explain them, it sounds too much like
a weasel clause.

Willie

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henryj

11 years ago

Yea same as the first poster. I do not buy products without a refund policy. There should always be a refund policy, something can always go wrong and you should have some policy in place to handle this to keep the customers happy.

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Johnny12345

11 years ago

In my view, you should ALWAYS offer a money-back guarantee. Period. End of story.

Refunds are the price of doing business. And, despite claims to the otherwise, a MBG shows that you have confidence in your product. It creates trust.

Besides, there are ways to minimize refunds...

1) One of those ways is to offer a GREAT product. If you sell crap, you DESERVE to be hit with refunds. If you provide great products, people will be hesitant to ask for a refund because they'll want to keep the bridge to you wide open for the future.

And there are also several other ways...

2) Brian mentioned a good one. Make all or part of it a physical product. Clever.

3) Ken mentioned that you should provide a sample. Very smart.

4) Another way is to offer a free bonus webinar that takes place AFTER the refund period has passed. If a person actually WANTS the product, but is scamming you, they may not want to miss out on the extra info provided.

5) You can also promise free updates or perks. Just explain that a substantial upgrade or bonus is coming soon (but AFTER the refund period has passed).

6) You may be able to maintain a blacklist of "serial refunders." This way, you may be able to prevent them from buying in the future.

In addition, refunds provide you with USEFUL info. If your rate is high, you need to look at your product and the way you're doing business. It's a symptom. Something is wrong. Refunds can help you solve problems and make your product better.

Furthermore, if someone *REALLY* wants a refund, they'll probably get it. PayPal, ClickBank, and credit card merchants all provide mechanisms for obtaining a refund. (And I suspect the bias is always against the seller.) So why fight it. Give the refund and move on.

Finally, there are FAR worse things than giving refunds. There's this thing called The Internet. It gives UNHAPPY people -- whether justified or not -- the ability to harm your reputation with great ease. I don't know about you, but my reputation is valuable to me. On a product, I'd give the refund.

Best,

John

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GlenH 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

5) You can also promise free updates or perks. Just explain that a substantial upgrade or bonus is coming soon (but AFTER the refund period has passed).

Hey John,

I think that is a clever approach.

It's just a matter of getting the 'wording' right.
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kencalhn

11 years ago

good points. I'd add too that the need for offering a refund may be a function of several factors (though of course in theory always offering refunds is likely a good idea, it's best to test), such as:

a) market niche maturity/skepticism level
b) branding and personal positioning of the producer (if you're extremely well known and have a great reputation I'll say it's not as necessary to offer a MBG, though most top people still do)
c) price point of what you're selling
d) how much preview/sales process they've been through: the more preview content you've provided, the less a need to offer refund since they see what they're getting. Like a movie trailer for a DVD, if you see that nobody expects you to ask for a refund of the movie after buying it.
e) relationship with your list, maturity of, and repeat vs first time customer

likely other factors too. I know the world's top info-producers offer MBGs and that alone is reason enough to make it a sound business policy, however I also believe that testing is a good idea; in my own experience I've "made it" with no MBGs. Possibly I could've made more with affs and MBGs, likely, though testing didn't support need for MBGs. Definitely worth split-testing on an ongoing basis, along w/other variables.

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WeaverJ972

11 years ago

If a product doesn't have a refund policy, I'm not buying no matter what! It's just as simple as that. There is something wrong if they don't offer a refund if the customer is unsatisfied. I think many people today have forgotten that the key to lasting success is to provide high-quality products that produce happy customers, not to scam a bunch of people and then head for the hills. That mentality really irks me.

While I realize that you cannot please everyone, I would hope that people would a least try to please the people who can be pleased.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Willie Crawford

Yeah, I agree.

Part of the problem is that some marketers use blind copy or copy so
nebulous that the customer is really not sure WHAT they are buying

Many customer also expect the product to be easier to use,
"no work" or to contain something revolutionary... which is often
not the case.

I was going to ask you what would make an honest affiliate promote a blind offer where "no refunds" was a positive, but you answered me already...

Originally Posted by Willie Crawford

Lance, I've never promoted a product with a no-refund policy... that I
remember. That's not to say that I never will, but most of the ones
that I've seen lately didn't strike me as something I wanted to offer to
my subscriber, whom I am fairly protective of.

Refund or not, I lose both trust and respect for promoters who will plug anything for a buck, using any trickery necessary to shear the sheep. If I follow a link to a blind offer, it's the last one I'll follow from that promoter. And I'll have a jaundiced eye for anything else they say...

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sfrewerd

11 years ago

No refund policy, no purchase from me. I get the reason for it too, but as a buyer, no way. Now, on the other hand, there are a few trusted folks that I've bought from before or I have known online for awhile. If they started selling without a refund policy I'd probably still buy from them. The trust is already there. Strangers, however, no.

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Lance K

11 years ago

I understand the video game, DVD, etc. references & they make sense. But don't forget that those physical products can be sold used to 2nd hand retailers or other private parties.

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oldwarrioruser1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

I understand the video game, DVD, etc. references & they make sense. But don't forget that those physical products can be sold used to 2nd hand retailers or other private parties.

How do I know people don't resell or give away my products to other people or their list?

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Lance K

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Kory Pearman

How do I know people don't resell or give away my products to other people or their list?

I meant that it's legal to sell the physical stuff so there's a legitimate way to recoup some of the money without a refund policy.

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oldwarrioruser1

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

I meant that it's legal to sell the physical stuff so there's a legitimate way to recoup some of the money without a refund policy.

I agree - I see your point on that as well, with being able to recoup some of that money.

It's really just two completely different opinions and obviously each vendor will have their own.

I just don't think it's right for customers to assume the product is bad because there isn't a refund in place.

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

I only don't have a refund policy for my IM coaching program and have NEVER had a problem with it.

It's not so much serial refunders as it gives an automatic way out of failure. My course is a 6 month course and if I'm going to put in the time to help you reach YOUR goal of working from home, I don't want you to have a built-in way out where you feel better for failing.

I prefer to ONLY teach REAL newbies so doesn't bother me that I'm going to lose sales to those people that first make sure there is a refund policy before buying. Not the type of student I'm looking for. I'm looking for a Michael Jordan mindset not a Mark Sanchez one. LMAO sorry to those NY fans out their.

Yes this probably sounds like I'm promoting but it was a direct question about why I have a no refund policy so I'm answering it. Besides I love and take pride in my membership and students. I throw them a party here in Las Vegas every year and its going on its getting close to its third year now and going strong.

Well said!

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GlenPalmer

11 years ago

Hi Willie,

It seems extremely unusual for someone not not offer a refund. In my opinion, if you don't offer a refund, it only says to me that the product creator really hasn't got confidence in his own product and wants to ensure he makes the quick buck. However, in saying that, I can see reasoning with the other side of the coin too. I know a lot of people could buy the product, download it and then ask for a refund. I know of a couple of friends this has happened to. But really, this is the minority of individuals out there. Or am I being an optimist.

It's a double edged sword really, the product owner wants to protect his product by offering a no refund, but the consumer is wary of buying it also.

Good question as to which we could debate for a very, very long time.

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by GlenPalmer

... I know a lot of people could buy the product, download it and then ask for a refund. I know of a couple of friends this has happened to. But really, this is the minority of individuals out there. Or am I being an optimist.

No, you are not just being an optimist. I too believe that those who
buy a product with the pre-meditated intention of refunding, is in
the minority of individuals.

I don't have any statistical data to back up my belief though

Willie

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CyberSorcerer

11 years ago

I only don't have a refund policy for my IM coaching program and have NEVER had a problem with it.

It's not so much serial refunders as it gives an automatic way out of failure. My course is a 6 month course and if I'm going to put in the time to help you reach YOUR goal of working from home, I don't want you to have a built-in way out where you feel better for failing.

I prefer to ONLY teach REAL newbies so doesn't bother me that I'm going to lose sales to those people that first make sure there is a refund policy before buying. Not the type of student I'm looking for. I'm looking for a Michael Jordan mindset not a Mark Sanchez one. LMAO sorry to those NY fans out their.

Yes this probably sounds like I'm promoting but it was a direct question about why I have a no refund policy so I'm answering it. Besides I love and take pride in my membership and students. I throw them a party here in Las Vegas every year and its going on its getting close to its third year now and going strong.

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Allan_Gardyne

11 years ago

Hi Willie, As an affiliate, I like promoting products that offer a prominent money back guarantee, a guarantee makes people feel more comfortable risking their money on the purchase. To me, it's a strong selling point.

For a product I'm really impressed with, I've found it useful to do follow-ups in which I promote the product again, but this time talk about a different aspect of it.

I recently promoted a product, did a little follow-up for a few more sales, and then several days later did another follow-up in which I talked about the seller's 8 week money back guarantee. That persuaded a bunch of doubters to trust him and buy (this was about 20% of my sales for that product).

In this case, the product was web-based and in a format that wasn't easily copied. No doubt that technique reduces refunds.

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CyberSorcerer

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Allan_Gardyne

Hi Willie, As an affiliate, I like promoting products that offer a prominent money back guarantee, a guarantee makes people feel more comfortable risking their money on the purchase. To me, it's a strong selling point..

IMO, that's the problem. People are more worried about the money their risking instead of the career their risking.

That's why their having money problems because they spend time worrying about money instead of how to make more of it.

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mmiys

11 years ago

I tend to agree with the crowd on this one. A refund policy gets more sales, and keeps credibility and trust. Truth be known I refunded several $9 or $15 products only to buy and keep bigger ticket items from the same person.

On the other hand, I was a loyal buyer of someone who offered a $1k product with a guarantee that if it didn't work for me he would make it right. It turned out to be a similar situation as Willie mentioned (maybe same product). I reached out several times for help and was completely unhappy. I finally asked him to make it right by offering me one of his many other products and in return I was scolded.

He's actually my motivation to make it big now...I can't wait to get to Austin and slap him!

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by mmiys

I tend to agree with the crowd on this one. A refund policy gets more sales, and keeps credibility and trust. Truth be known I refunded several $9 or $15 products only to buy and keep bigger ticket items from the same person.

On the other hand, I was a loyal buyer of someone who offered a $1k product with a guarantee that if it didn't work for me he would make it right. It turned out to be a similar situation as Willie mentioned (maybe same product). I reached out several times for help and was completely unhappy. I finally asked him to make it right by offering me one of his many other products and in return I was scolded.

He's actually my motivation to make it big now...I can't wait to get to Austin and slap him!

The product that I mentioned wasn't created by someone from Austin,
but be sure to take a photo of you slapping this guy when you get to
Austin

Willie

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Willie Crawford

11 years ago

I saw this disclaimer on a friend's site, and felt that in his
case it made perfect sense. His product's cost of development
and maintenance, and the expenditure of his personal time
working with customer, are what I think merits a no-refund
policy for him.

Anyway, here's how his policy reads:

Once you pay to become a member we have a no refund policy. If you are
down to your last dollars, do not purchase this program. Like any legitimate
program it takes work and not everyone is successful. In fact most people
never take the time to actually do what is necessary to be successful. So
again with every ounce of reason within you do not expect this to be a
magic pill.

To an extent, I think that this discussion centers around clearly
identifying WHO your customer is, and establishing very clear
expectations.

Willie

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bsummers

11 years ago

When I think no refund policy, I do not easily trust it. However, like you said there are those opportunist that ask for refund after purchasing. I guess the solution is to base the refund depending on the case. In our company, if our client is unhappy or does not want to continue their service, we give them a refund. There is no point of pushing the businesses when both parties are unhappy right?

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CyberSorcerer 11 years ago

Originally Posted by bsummers

I guess the solution is to base the refund depending on the case.

No, you base it on the industry. IM is only place I use no refunds.

HELL I even have refunds on my porn sites.
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kindsvater

11 years ago

Does the Warrior Forum have a refund policy?

What about attending games to see your favorite sports team?

The college you went to?

The movie theatre?

Your doctor, dentist, lawyer, CPA, etc.?

Keep in mind a refund is different from a warranty. Just think of all the businesses most visit that have a no refund policy, although they may offer a warranty on parts or service.

One problem online may be buyers do not value the product because they equate value with delivery. Oh, it is free to deliver, so I shouldn't have to pay more than 99 cents for it. Since there is no cost for delivery they also feel entitled to a refund.

I completely disagree with those who say a no refund policy means one is not secure in their product. Just the opposite. Those who are insecure will lower their price for anyone or offer refunds for any reason - often because they do not value themselves and their product.

.

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mmiys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Does the Warrior Forum have a refund policy?

What about attending games to see your favorite sports team?

The college you went to?

The movie theatre?

Your doctor, dentist, lawyer, CPA, etc.?

Keep in mind a refund is different from a warranty. Just think of all the businesses most visit that have a no refund policy, although they may offer a warranty on parts or service.

One problem online may be buyers do not value the product because they equate value with delivery. Oh, it is free to deliver, so I shouldn't have to pay more than 99 cents for it. Since there is no cost for delivery they also feel entitled to a refund.

I completely disagree with those who say a no refund policy means one is not secure in their product. Just the opposite. Those who are insecure will lower their price for anyone or offer refunds for any reason - often because they do not value themselves and their product.

.

Actually, I have received refunds for movies AND college classes

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oldwarrioruser1 11 years ago

Originally Posted by mmiys

Actually, I have received refunds for movies AND college classes

Will you make a WSO on how you did that? I'll buy it!
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samjaynz

11 years ago

One of my products, which sells for less than $5, comes with a no refund policy. Still doesn't stop people from buying it.

However, refund policies do tend to help I think.

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GlenH 11 years ago

I offer a 30 day refund policy on all my software products.

With software, the main reason I find that most users ask for a refund goes something like this......" you're software didn't do what I thought it would do"

I mean it's an incredibly lame excuse particularly given the fact that I have multiple tutorial videos on the sales pages of all my products demonstrating the products full capabilities in detail.

There is no 'blind' sales copy and the pitch is hype-free.

So it's impossible that a prospect would not know exactly what the capabilities of the product were that they were buying.

But still I've stayed with my 30 day refund policy. I'm certain it's helped my reputation, and it does enhance the credibility of my products.
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- Willie Crawford 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by GlenH
  
  So it's impossible that a prospect would not know exactly what the capabilities of the product were that they were buying.
  
  Bear in mind that many people just skim a sales page, and do
  often make assumptions, without even watching video product
  demonstrations. So, they may honestly not know the exact
  capability that they are buying.
  
  Actually, the excuse for asking for a refund that I hate the most
  is that the product does not do what they thought it did, mainly
  because I do not use blind copy, and where appropriate, I too
  provide video demonstrations.
  
  Willie
  
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PerformanceMan

11 years ago

No refund policy makes you look like a scamming idiot. The buyer can still file a dispute with their credit card company so it doesn't prove much.

You make less sales and are trusted less. I can't see the good in it. If the customer is not happy - let them go.

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CyberSorcerer 11 years ago

Originally Posted by PerformanceMan

No refund policy makes you look like a scamming idiot. The buyer can still file a dispute with their credit card company so it doesn't prove much.

You are correct but you do have to read the terms of service for your credit card company I've already had a couple of refunds filed with PayPal and they have been denied for one because it's an electronic download which is stated in PayPal's terms of service

I've been doing this for a while and PayPal knows my service they seen my membership area and know I'm not out to screw anyone and the product is informational. Easy to follow and no hidden scams or anything they wouldn't like.

I had NO PROBLEM with PayPal wanting to check out my product. I've been with them for many years and have a reputation with them. And as a security researcher even done consulting for them on malware issues.

Contrary to popular belief just because you have a no refund policy doesn't mean you're a bad business or service.
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Rod Cortez

11 years ago

Originally Posted by PerformanceMan

No refund policy makes you look like a scamming idiot. The buyer can still file a dispute with their credit card company so it doesn't prove much.

You make less sales and are trusted less. I can't see the good in it. If the customer is not happy - let them go.

I don't agree. It depends on the nature of the product and the presentation of the product or service. I'm doing some work with an insurance company at the moment and they just shelled out over 2 million dollars on a non-refundable CRM software solution for their entire company.

The contract they signed states that the company will offer unlimited support for the CRM package for a specific period of time and a couple of the customized solutions they provided.

The company that sold this package is definitely not a "scamming" idiot, they're a sharp company in a very competitive industry that knows the value of their product and services. And guess what? Their target prospects are smart enough to know this and understand the value proposition that is offered.

Now look at coaching services: there are many different schools of thought regarding them. For the sake of this thread, let's focus on refunds. There are 3 basic camps in the coaching industry:

1. Give a full refund if the person felt they did not get enough value or their money's worth.
2. In camp #2 they will give a partial refund or a full refund after the first day (or some other arbitrary time line).
3. In camp #3 they have a no-refund policy.

I've had a lot of coaches over the past 2 decades and at one time or another I've encountered coaches from all 3 camps.

The most successful ones, both in terms of earnings and being well-known in their industries, fell in camps #2 and #3, the majority if them fell in camp #3. This was across several industries and not just the MMO market.

Just thought I should add a different perspective based on my experience with the plethora of coaches I've been exposed to.

RoD

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JohnMcCabe 11 years ago

Originally Posted by mmiys

Actually, I have received refunds for movies AND college classes

Originally Posted by Kory Pearman

Will you make a WSO on how you did that? I'll buy it!

Kory, it's pretty simple. You get the boss (manager, manager's manager, owner, whoever has the ability to actually make a decision), and you calmy and rationally exlain why you were not satisfied and what they can do to make things right. I've received refunds for movies, restaurant meals and other "non-returnable" things by doing this.

As for college classes, most colleges have a course cancellation policy spelled out. I also got a refund on one calculus class because the TA was an idiot and the prof turned a blind eye. Actually, 45 of us got refunds on that deal.

Take what you would have paid for the WSO and donate it to the Red Cross relief fund...
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PBScott

11 years ago

People that abused refunds etc with my physical products, leaving me with a large loss due to shipping already being paid etc end up on my e-mail block list by e-mail address, and physical address.

If they ever buy again, even though they sent me money, I won't even know about it. They don't get to fool me twice.

I am not in the digital product business, but I might consider a log on only version of the e-book instead, that way if they take the payment away, you can revoke access.

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PerformanceMan

11 years ago

Originally Posted by PBScott

People that abused refunds etc with my physical products, leaving me with a large loss due to shipping already being paid etc end up on my e-mail block list by e-mail address, and physical address.

If they ever buy again, even though they sent me money, I won't even know about it. They don't get to fool me twice.

I am not in the digital product business, but I might consider a log on only version of the e-book instead, that way if they take the payment away, you can revoke access.

Refunds for physical products should involve the item being shipped back to the vendor and a potential re-stocking charge if opened.

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PBScott 11 years ago

Originally Posted by PerformanceMan

Refunds for physical products should involve the item being shipped back to the vendor and a potential re-stocking charge if opened.

Too bad we don't all live in a perfect world. Thankfully it is very very rare for anyone to try and scam us these days, and it has been years since anyone actually got away with it.

We give a full refund on all sellable products less the shipping for any reason. I can't think of the last time anyone took this option though they usually just want to exchange the size.
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Daniel Thomas

11 years ago

Refunds not affecting affiliate commissions is a common policy for companies that do post-sale followups. For example if you're selling something that has shipping issues (for example you know that it may take a longer time and people may want a refund).

It reflects that affiliates should be compensated for their hard work, regardless if somehow in the follow-up process, the order get cancelled/refunded.

However, if the product is a refund/chargeback risk from the get-go, that's a different scenario and I feel like in the case you described, with the "webinar" or what not, it's exactly the case. You lost a lot of potential commissions, but should have been expecting it and perhaps looking for either:
1. An instant better deal half-way through the process of seeing the traffic covert, OR,
2. Asking for pre-payment for a risky offer.

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1GreatCPA

11 years ago

I never make any deal if there is no refund policy.

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Daniel Thomas

11 years ago

He's not talking about the customer side, he's talking about commissions being unaffected by refunds.

P.S. If a company can afford to pay commissions, regardless of refunds, it shows great strength.

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carlajoyce

11 years ago

I am a firm believer that if your product is good enough then you should have no problem with offering an iron clad refund policy - i have found it actually helps me to get more sales knowing that buyers will get 100% no quibble money back guarantee ... period!

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TheFreeman 11 years ago

Carla, you are absolutely right; I have bought products where I get refund without questions, but in others situation the owner just refused to refund his worthless product, but CB forced a refund anyway. You are right a good product will actually benefit from a 100% money back guarantee; people will see that you care.
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Jeff Usher

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

I never offer refunds on WSO. You can't have a special price and a refund at the same time. So if you wanted the refund policy then you buy at the normal price.

With respect, that's the biggest load of bull I've heard in this forum for a long time.

Doesn't matter what the price is, if you have a refund policy - you refund, YOU set the special offer price and should be confident in it's quality.

We all know in internet marketing that price points are dynamic. What next - a dime sale where only the buyers who buy it over the $10 mark can get a refund, because below $10 was the best price !!!!

The product is still the same regardless of whether it's on special offer or not.

And I wonder why IM is getting the bad rap it is at the moment. Sheeesh.

Jeff

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

I've also promoted one big lauch where I made over
$70,000 in sales of a product paying 50% commission.
However my $35,000+ vaporized because of at 75% refund
rate. In this particular instance, it was the product
creator's fault.

I think the product plays a big role on how many refunds. You will get your serial refunders, but it's not enough to derail a product launch. There are marketers who sell thousands of unit and maintain less than 1% refund rate, by putting out quality products.

To says a no refund policy is better is inaccurate IMO. I think you leave money on the table by not offering one. Where would Walmart be if they offered a no refund policy? out of business, people would just buy else where.

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Michael Ten

11 years ago

I support no refund policies as long as the product is truly worthwhile and valuable. Many gun shops do not accept returns.

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prem khaira

Banned 11 years ago

I have a non refundable product...and i will NEVER offer a refund for that specific product due to the value(with free gifts) and also, because of content thief and refund ABUSERS! I dealt with a lot especially while selling with clickbank in the past.

Latest case scenario...So far out of 141 sales, only 4 people asked for a refund and i told them about the no refund policy like stated on the download page and site disclaimer. 3 of them didn't complain at all BUT one of them went to create a dispute with paypal which i later won so....it all depends! There's so many advantages and disadvantages either ways as we can tell from all these posts.

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ebusorg

11 years ago

I like to buy different stuff from ClickBnak because of their refund policy. If there isn't a refund policy for any product online, I won't often buy it.

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CyberAlien

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Portlandrocks

I can't remember what the policy was or whether it was accurate, so take this for what it is worth - but personally I have problems with no-questions asked refund policies on DPs.

I've actually heard the same thing before and would love if someone could quote where exactly that's covered in one of their agreements.

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Joel Young

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Portlandrocks

I saw a similar thread in a JV group elsewhere and someone brought up the fact that Paypal itself has a policy that most DP product vendors violate when they offer no-questions asked refunds.

I can't remember what the policy was or whether it was accurate, so take this for what it is worth - but personally I have problems with no-questions asked refund policies on DPs.

Originally Posted by Chase Watts

I've actually heard the same thing before and would love if someone could quote where exactly that's covered in one of their agreements.

After a brief but not thorough look through all their multiple policies and procedures, one thing I found that could be construed as such is this:

9. Restricted Activities.

9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, the PayPal Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, other Users, or third parties, you will not:
...
k. Conduct your business or use the PayPal Services in a manner that results in or may result in complaints, Disputes, Claims, Reversals, Chargebacks, fees, fines, penalties and other liability to PayPal, other Users, third parties or you;

So, by offering a "no questions asked" refund policy you are in effect inviting refunds, disputes, etc., which of course is unacceptable for PayPal.

That part of their policy is found by clicking 'Legal Agreements' at the bottom of any PayPal page, then click 'PayPal User Agreement', then go to the 'Restricted Activities' section of the document.

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CDarklock 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joel Young

So, by offering a "no questions asked" refund policy you are in effect inviting refunds, disputes, etc., which of course is unacceptable for PayPal.

This clause doesn't mean what you think it means. Here, look:

"...you will not: ... use the PayPal Services in a manner that results in ... Disputes ... to PayPal..."

So it is a violation of PayPal's terms to open a dispute.

What this clause actually means is that you cannot do business over PayPal in any fashion where a reasonable and prudent person would expect any of those things. In other words, where these things are the normal recourse for what you have objectively done.

Most pointedly, not having a refund policy. Look carefully at that list: it details every single method of the customer getting his money back except a refund.

Because the only acceptable result for PayPal is just that: a refund. No questions asked. No conditions applied.

Which is kind of the opposite of what you just said.
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wpo1408

11 years ago

I bought a no-refund product once.
It was awful and did not work properly.
I complained to PP, but they pointed at the clause.
Never again.

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T086

11 years ago

If its a digital product like an eBook, they still have the product after the refund so it doesn't really work out.

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Rod Cortez 11 years ago

Originally Posted by T086

If its a digital product like an eBook, they still have the product after the refund so it doesn't really work out.

Yes, this is true. Which is why some marketers will convert their ebook into a simple membership website. When the person asks for their refund, their access to the membership site gets disabled.

It's not a 100% solution, but I have found it to be very effective.

RoD
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badlimey

11 years ago

Offer a trial period and then a no refund policy if they purchase after the trial is over. Any product worth its salt should not have to hide behind a no refund policy in the first place.

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by badlimey

Offer a trial period and then a no refund policy if they purchase after the trial is over. Any product worth its salt should not have to hide behind a no refund policy in the first place.

I have been in business for over 6 years selling my software which has a no refund policy (like many of the top software companies). I seem to be doing something right since people are still wanting to purchase it.

If you have a bad product, you won't be in business for long. It is that simple. To say that your product is crap because of the refund policy is idiotic. Just like saying Walmart would be out of business if it wasn't for their refund policy is, well, just silly.

Now, you guys continue going on and telling us how bad products are with no refund policies while the rest of us continue testing and selling stuff. I don't know where people on the forum would be without you guys hashing out what needs to be done.

I am still waiting for those states that made no refund policies illegal.

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JohnMcCabe

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Now, you guys continue going on and telling us how bad products are with no refund policies while the rest of us continue testing and selling stuff. I don't know where people on the forum would be without you guys hashing out what needs to be done.

Certain products beg for no-refund policies. If I buy a piece of software, a music CD, even a music download, if I have problems the best I expect is replacement. If replacement is not possible, then a refund is in order. If I buy a book from a bookstore, I don't get a refund unless the book is defective in some way, and replacement is not an option.

Kindle offers refunds because you can't see the entire product before buying. But if you refund, you lose access to the product unless you take deliberate action to avoid it.

While I've never purchased from you, I get from your participation here that if I did, I would have a darn good idea of what I was buying rather than a laundry list of what I wasn't (i.e., blind copy).

[quote=Thomas Belknap;8173332]

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I am still waiting for those states that made no refund policies illegal.

I believe people spouting this idea are misinterpreting the so-called "lemon laws" many states have on the books. While they do prohibit sellers from disallowing refunds, they tend to cover specific goods (like used cars without an explicit as-is clause) and types of transactions (like door to door sales). They also have relatively short time spans (typically 3 business days).

The intent of these lemon laws is not to force merchants to offer blanket refunds. It's to protect consumers in transactions with a history of misrepresentation. Sound familiar?

If you don't have the history of misrepresentation (like most legit software companies), there's little cause for worry. Make-money "systems", on the other hand...

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

While I've never purchased from you, I get from your participation here that if I did, I would have a darn good idea of what I was buying rather than a laundry list of what I wasn't (i.e., blind copy).

Yeah, I was only talking about credible products. I don't find the blind copy products to be credible even if they do sell well. I just wouldn't purchase a product like that regardless of the refund policy. Your just asking to be scammed on those.

For me, there is support issues when dealing with software. You do spend time helping people out to better use your software. I love helping people and enjoy interacting with customers immensely. In order to do that, I need to make sure the people that take up my time has a vested interest so they don't waste time that could be spent working on software enhancements and helping other customers.

As for a digital content that requires no/limited support, I would have no problem with a refund policy since it really doesn't impact my time.

Still, these things need to be tested. That is the main thing I am trying to get across here. Not to blindly regurgitate what you read but to actually test what is talked about on the forum.

Every product is different. Some may require more support and others not so much. It does affect your bottom line and should be considered.

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Alex Blades

11 years ago

Certain products beg for no-refund policies. If I buy a piece of software, a music CD, even a music download, if I have problems the best I expect is replacement.

I think a refund is in order when you are selling digital ebook products, because the buyer has no idea what is inside, they only have a hyped up sale page to give them an idea of what they are buying. As we all know, many products are not up to par.

I think there are alot of greedy people out there, that just don't want to give you your money back, and others who are just fed up with the serial refunders.

As for sellers, having a refund policy works, because it has gotten countless amounts of buyers off the "fence"

Even though I have never requested a refund personally, I don't buy anything that has a no refund policy (except software) because I don't go shopping in stores with no refund policies, so why should I start online?

When I buy something that is not up to par at the stores, I take it back and buy something better.

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Curtis2011

11 years ago

There is nothing "wrong" with refunds.

Product sellers offer refunds for one reason: to increase total sales.

In some markets, like "make money online", some of the buyers are very savvy and realize that a refund guarantee is basically like a free product for them. So they buy and immediately refund.

But the thing is... they aren't actually a lost sale. At least not most of them. Most of the people who buy with intent to refund would not have bought in the first place if there was no refund offered. So really when they refund, it is a net gain of $0 and a net loss of $0. Selling to and refunding the "serial refunders" is just a cost of doing business if you offer a refund.

Overall, offering a refund is a net gain though. Why? Because some genuine customers will only buy the product because of the risk reversal refund policy. But they don't all go for a refund, usually only a small percent of genuine buyers ask for one unless the product really sucked.

tl;dr: Offering a good refund policy is almost always good for your bottom line.

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Tim_Carter

11 years ago

I have a no refund policy on all of my stuff. It hasn't hurt sales in the least since I did it. In fact they increased.

What I do is give a full example of what they are getting before they buy. That way they can judge for themselves before laying out the money.

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Tom B

Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Tim_Carter

I have a no refund policy on all of my stuff. It hasn't hurt sales in the least since I did it. In fact they increased.

What I do is give a full example of what they are getting before they buy. That way they can judge for themselves before laying out the money.

Exactly! There are ways to let your customers know you have something of quality and it has nothing to do with a refund policy. If you do your job right, they won't even know what your refund policy is before they are ready to purchase (your refund policy should be in plain site on your page), imo.

In my mind, I think you failed if you rely on a refund policy to make a sale.

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VegasHawaii

11 years ago

I think the problem started with 30 day refund policies for digital products in general. That's part of a model that does not work with digital goods and services. It's okay to expect a refund if you bite into a meal and it tastes bad (provided you don't eat it all). It's okay to refund clothing that doesn't fit. It's okay to ask for a refund if you buy something and can return it. You can't return an ebook, service, script or software if it isn't licensed.

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Black Hat America

11 years ago

The key to using a !00% Money Back or similar refund is to have something you are selling -- even if it is is information -- where the refund makes you money. If you increase your conversions buy a huge factor with a refund then giving 30 or even 40% back could well leave you cash ahead.

I don't know of any istances where you could overcome a 75% refund rate yet by his own admission it was a shoddy product. When you are the product you simply can't have your asistant show up in the first video. It's on camera suicide!

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