Penalties For Cookie Stuffing

[GuerrillaIM]

Hey Guys,

Let me give you a hypothetical situation...

I create a review site with a review of about 4 products all related to the same niche with my affiliate link for each product under the review.

Now that is a pretty standard technique, but lets say that whenever someone hits that page I add my affiliate cookie for all 4 products even though they haven't clicked the link.

I haven't done this, I have just read some guides where people claim to be making a lot of money doing this. What are the penalties if you get caught?

Thanks,

G

[Traffic-Bug]

What do you achieve by adding those cookies? Cookies by definition can only be read by the server that sent them in the first place, and other third party sites have no say in a site and such alien sites cannot read the actual cookies set by the original site. So there is simply no point in this cookie setting and attempted cookie fraud.

[GuerrillaIM]

It's not difficult to do (works same way as traffic swapping). My question was pertaining to the punishments for getting caught.

[Pat Ordenes]

clickbank WILL ban you if caught...

[GuerrillaIM]

Originally Posted by Pat Ordenes

clickbank WILL ban you if caught...

Does that deter people? I see a lot of people doing it these days. How easy is it to open anothe CB account?

Wordpress seems to be getting hacked a lot recently. I suppose the best way to get rid of someone would be to hack their site and add a cookie stuffing technique unknown to his page and then report them to clickbank.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by Traffic-Bug

What do you achieve by adding those cookies? Cookies by definition can only be read by the server that sent them in the first place, and other third party sites have no say in a site and such alien sites cannot read the actual cookies set by the original site. So there is simply no point in this cookie setting and attempted cookie fraud.

It's very easy to to force another sites cookie onto a visitors browser. Do a search on cookie stuffing..

Originally Posted by Pat Ordenes

clickbank WILL ban you if caught...

Show me an example of this.

I've reported fraudulant affiliates before to CB (offering fake discounts & rebates, cookie stuffing, etc), and they have never done anything about it.

[Michael Oksa]

The penalty doesn't happen if you're caught, or not.

The penalty is knowing what you're doing isn't right. My apologies for sounding like a kindergarten teacher, but just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right.

Do things above board and you will never have to worry about being caught.

The fact that you are concerned about being caught suggests you know it's wrong - that's a good thing.

Will you get banned from CB? I have no idea, but who cares?

Thank you, I will now climb down from my soapbox.

The other side of me says if you are exposing people to the product in some way (informing them, reviewing the product), then you are somewhat responsible for the sale, and should maybe get some credit.

HOWEVER, it's the last person a customer is exposed to that puts that ultimately makes that sale happen. Therefore, they really deserve the affiliate commission.

So, this is what it boils down to...

Stop thinking about cookie stuffing, and start thinking about how best to convert visitors to your page into buyers. Keep focusing on that and you will come out ahead every time.

All the best,
Michael

[GuerrillaIM]

Don't hate the playa hate the game! haha I'm just joking.

I just wanted to get an idea of how well this is being policed, although with the tone of this thread I really doubt anyone will want to come forward and be honest about getting banned or using this technique themselves.

[Devilfish]

I think the most you could expect is to get your affiliate account banned or suspended.

[GuerrillaIM]

Originally Posted by Devilfish

I think the most you could expect is to get your affiliate account banned or suspended.

If this happened, can the culprit just register another account and update their affiliate links? Do the domains also get banned?

[jasonl70]

as I said - I have reported people for this, as well as outright TOS violations, and CB didn't do jack sh#t about it. The people in question are still running ppc, so there is little doubt their CB accounts are still active.

other networks are even worse - they actually willing ALLOW affiliate hijacking software into their network.

[Jordan Matthews]

Technically, I think most companies can sue you if they want. What you're doing is fraud. However, there has only ever been one lawsuit on cookie stuffing, which was between eBay and the guy who owns Digital point, and they claim he made over $5000 thanks to this kind of activity. That suit is pending.

As others have said, you can get your accounts banned...if they care enough to ban you. If they do ban you, it's fairly easy to just set up a new account.

[GuerrillaIM]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

as I said - I have reported people for this, as well as outright TOS violations, and CB didn't do jack sh#t about it. The people in question are still running ppc, so there is little doubt their CB accounts are still active.

other networks are even worse - they actually willing ALLOW affiliate hijacking software into their network.

How did you detect them? It seems if someone has some basic html and php knowledge then it is extremely difficult to detect. You would have to check all of their images and javascript files by sending a faker referrer field. How many people even know how to do this, let alone spare the time to do it?

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

How did you detect them? It seems if someone has some basic html and php knowledge then it is extremely difficult to detect. You would have to check all of their images and javascript files by sending a faker referrer field. How many people even know how to do this, let alone spare the time to do it?

simple.. if you don't click on their link, yet their id shows up on the CB checkout page

I use ppc, and keep a close eye on my competition. Every stuffer I have come across has simply used an image tag with their hoplink, which is not trying to cover their tracks at all. I didn't even bother reporting them normaly (stuffing doesn't bother me, as their cookies will be replaced if the person ever clicks on my links). However, if they were also making false claims of discounts, etc, then I reported everything they were doing.

And CB never did squat about any of it.

[GuerrillaIM]

There is a way to cloak the cookie stuffing making it almost impossible to find in the code. I wonder if I created a software tool to detect pages that are cookie stuffing there would be a demand for it.

Lol, I could even create a tool to add the cookie stuffing cloaking to create the demand!

[Devilfish]

The DP/Ebay incident was from 2004 to 2007, I'd imagine they earned more than $5000 from it.

Here's some good reading...

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal...206526/1/0.pdf

[LB]

To clarify, I don't believe any court has determined that cookie stuffing is fraud.

Additionally, there is a big difference between setting up a review site for a product and then dropping a cookie for that same product when compared to say, running a website about monkeys and stuffing credit card offer cookies.

Not saying either is right or wrong. But until the law says otherwise, there is no black and white answer. I can assure you though, that most merchants will ban you and take any owed commissions if they catch you.

[GuerrillaIM]

Originally Posted by LB

I can assure you though, that most merchants will ban you and take any owed commissions if they catch you.

Have you seen click bank merchants banning people personally or was it something you heard? I'm not trying to interorgate you, its just an earlier poster expressed difficulty in trying to get cookie stuffers banned. I would like to know what brought you to this conclusion.

Thanks

[jasonl70]

I actually had a merchant tell me they complained to CB as well (for an affiliate falsely offering a 75% discount).

CB never did anything.

Cookie stuffing doesn't bother me when it's a review site- I really don't think anyone is losing a commission who actually earned it. I only reported it when the offender was doing other things I felt were outright fraudulant as well as clearly in violation of CB's TOS.

[timpears]

I personally think that this thread is totally inappropriate and should be deleted by the moderator. What you SEEM TO BE DOING, as far as I can see, is asking people to explain to you how to avoid getting caught stealing peoples commissions. Which is what cookie stuffing is all about.

I can't say for sure that is your motivation, but it sure looks that way to me. The tone I sense from you in the thread is one of fraud. Sorry if I misjudged you, but that is what I see.

[AnneE]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

The penalty doesn't happen if you're caught, or not.

The penalty is knowing what you're doing isn't right. My apologies for sounding like a kindergarten teacher, but just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right.

Do things above board and you will never have to worry about being caught.

The fact that you are concerned about being caught suggests you know it's wrong - that's a good thing.

Will you get banned from CB? I have no idea, but who cares?

Thank you, I will now climb down from my soapbox.

The other side of me says if you are exposing people to the product in some way (informing them, reviewing the product), then you are somewhat responsible for the sale, and should maybe get some credit.

HOWEVER, it's the last person a customer is exposed to that puts that ultimately makes that sale happen. Therefore, they really deserve the affiliate commission.

So, this is what it boils down to...

Stop thinking about cookie stuffing, and start thinking about how best to convert visitors to your page into buyers. Keep focusing on that and you will come out ahead every time.

All the best,
Michael

I'm with Michael on this one. He's right... the idea of those cookies and affiliate program is to motivate you to send buyers to the store. If they haven't clicked on your link, then you haven't sent a buyer to the store. Focus on providing value-add to the process. In the long run you'll make more money and in the short run you'll sleep better at night and not have to ask questions about the likelihood of getting caught and whether you can open a second account.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by timpears

I personally think that this thread is totally inappropriate and should be deleted by the moderator. What you SEEM TO BE DOING, as far as I can see, is asking people to explain to you how to avoid getting caught stealing peoples commissions. Which is what cookie stuffing is all about.

I can't say for sure that is your motivation, but it sure looks that way to me. The tone I sense from you in the thread is one of fraud. Sorry if I misjudged you, but that is what I see.

You send someone to a salespage via a CB hoplink.

They aren't convinced and decide not buy yet.

They add the site to their favorites, then hit google looking for reviews.

Ultimately, they come across a site that overcomes their objections.

They're now ready to buy.

They either click their 'favorites' link, type the url directly into their browser, or google the site.

The last review/site they visited arguably deserves the sale, as it was the site which ultimately convinced them to buy. But they will only credit if they 'cookie stuff'.

This is why I don't have a serious issue with review sites that do this.

[GuerrillaIM]

Originally Posted by timpears

I personally think that this thread is totally inappropriate and should be deleted by the moderator. What you SEEM TO BE DOING, as far as I can see, is asking people to explain to you how to avoid getting caught stealing peoples commissions. Which is what cookie stuffing is all about.

I can't say for sure that is your motivation, but it sure looks that way to me. The tone I sense from you in the thread is one of fraud. Sorry if I misjudged you, but that is what I see.

Really? You think I am asking how to avoid getting caught? If I asked what the punishment was for murder would you assume I had just killed someone and wanted some help avoiding the law? Assumption is rife on this forum.

I do not use cookie stuffing on any of my sites. If there wasn't a place where I could come and discuss the topic to further my own knowledge then I would actually have to go out there with the intention of getting banned to see how far I had to push the boundries before I got into trouble. I see coming here and discussing the subject as an alternative for that. This is a topic related to internet marketing and just like I study every other aspect, I also wish to understand this process. It doesn't mean I will go out and do it. Does everyone who learns how to fire a gun go out and start shooting people?

5 minutes googling "cookie stuffing" will give you all the information you need on how to cloak it and I have been careful here not to directly tell people how to do it.

[timpears]

I gave you my opinion, and it was worth exactly what you paid for it. Maybe I am wrong, but the tone and direction of your questions gave me the impression you were trying to find out how to avoid getting caught and if you did get caught, what would happen and could you just open up a new account.

[SeanIM]

It's simply playing with fire...I know ebay hands out lawsuits. Personally I'd stear clear of it, however I know some Canadians that are ruthless and have played with it with a pretty wild group of stories of income. (eg; on guy posting cookied images on 10+ forums by hand, pulling 10k a month)

It's just too dirty for me to want to get involved with. There are better ways to make money that are more legit.