I don't agree with my client... can you help resolve this?

[Kevin Lam]

Hey guys,

Some of you have seen me around the forum helping out a lot and I don't usually ask for a critique. This time, I need a bit of help. I have a client that is set on his ways and I just want to see how the audience reacts to what he feels. I won't say anything until I get some responses, but I'm sure what all of you say will just confirm what I believe.

Please tell me what you think of these sites (quality of graphics, how it stands out, does it help you want to read the content, is the navigation any good) - don't worry about hurting my feelings, this is not my work:

LINKS REMOVED NOW - THANKS EVERYONE.

**So you guys don't have to search for my responses**

#9---------------------------
Thanks, guys, you're all helping my cause. Just keep in mind these ARE NOT my sites and these ARE NOT my designs. I'm trying to convince the client to get away from this kind of look. I seriously think people will turn away 100% of the time. I've forced myself MANY times to look at it and that's only because I was a potential service provider. If I was just surfing the web and saw this, I'd click away in an instant.

#21--------------------------
Yes, adjusting it is the whole idea, but having to keep the color scheme and amateurish buttons and headers is problematic for me. The one with the dolphins doesn't bother me THAT much and yes, I do prefer that it's a globe rotating, but it's sites like the other one where there is so many things clustered into the header. He thinks having all of that helps and that it will make the visitor want to read what is on the site.

If you look at the very top image with the date, full screen, etc tabs, that entire thing is present on EVERY single site. Same color, same layout. It's hard to work with when that is what you have to base a new design off of and you cannot change the color of it.

My main concern with this is - does the header really get visitors wanting to read? I think not. Especially when the text itself is hard to read.

[BrightLife]

Hi Kevin,

The text block in the middle is hard to read. I do not like this
I would underlay it with a touch of a darker grey and paste the text in white.
But what do I know? I do not like coloured text anyway -

Lena

[dvduval]

Looks a little funny on a large monitor. Definitely that orange font is hard to read. And seems like there are far too many sections for a brand new site. It almost seems like the goals are too lofty. People are going to end up clicking around an incomplete site for a long time to come.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Too hard to read. I didn't even know what the first site was about until I forced myself to look at it again. My initial reaction was to just click away. Ditto on the second site.

The navigation needs to be simplified or organized better. Maybe it would be better if it were just easier to read. I didn't stick around long enough to thoroughly investigate the navigation. I didn't go past the first page either. Please don't make me look at the sites again. ;-)

I think my reaction will probably be typical of the average user.

Hope that helps!

[Dan Riffle]

I agree wholeheartedly with Rinnert. Too hard to read, cluttered, organized poorly and, at least for me, the color schemes are too dark. Dark sites instantly repel me.

[Lokesh Sharma]

The whole template used for both the site simply SUCKS...

You can have a more sales page oriented website or atleast have a better design.

No wonder if you've a bounce rate of more than 90%!

- Lokesh Sharma

[Ant West]

woooooo mate , these sites are truly shocking!, can hardly read them properly!

[Kevin Lam]

Thanks, guys, you're all helping my cause. Just keep in mind these ARE NOT my sites and these ARE NOT my designs. I'm trying to convince the client to get away from this kind of look. I seriously think people will turn away 100% of the time. I've forced myself MANY times to look at it and that's only because I was a potential service provider. If I was just surfing the web and saw this, I'd click away in an instant.

[Tyrus Antas]

Wow, horrible usability. Tell your client to come read this thread.

- Can't read a thing.
- Cheesy 90's design.
- Using animations as design elements are a big no-no.
- Too many menus, too many choices. It makes me feel anxious and therefore drives me away from the site.
- Everything feels too cramped. There's no white space. No space to breath. Once again anxiety kicks in.
- There are a few uses for frames. This is not one of them.

Tyrus

[JohnMcCabe]

Wow, I didn't know people still used frames on their front pages. Haven't seen that one in ages.

Second one had a pretty picture in the background.

Beyond that, I didn't see anything in either site that made me want to stick around.

What is the client actually trying to accomplish with either site? I couldn't really tell.

From my own experience as a user, the most useful home pages for huge sites function much like the "you are here" guides in airports and shopping malls. They should tell me what I can expect to find on the site, and then tell me where to find it.

I don't get either of those here, just a self-aggrandizing 'mission statement'...

[Devon Brown]

Maybe this sentence will help: "AAAHHH!! MY EYES!!"

I couldn't read one bit of information on there.. it really hurt my eyes and made my head feel busy (not dizzy) and cluttered.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Renegade Success

Maybe this sentence will help: "AAAHHH!! MY EYES!!"

I couldn't read one bit of information on there.. it really hurt my eyes and made my head feel busy (not dizzy) and cluttered.

LOL! Thanks for a good laugh!

[Joseph Then]

I don't feel like reading at all.

The easy way to convince your client is:

Install Google Analytics. Let it run for one week. Check the bounce rate. If the bounce rate is more than 85% and the time stayed is less than 1 minute, it means that the visitors aren't even interested to stay on your site.

[Joeez]

Yuck! I have the same reaction as everyone else. Too busy, too dark, and too confusing. I like simple and clean myself.

[Kevin Lam]

This client has nearly 200 websites.... like this.... I don't need Analytics to tell me that the design is crappy and the animated header does not help his cause.

[Kay King]

Oddly, the thing that bothered me most is the dolphins going and round to make the "O" - because it's so like the "loading" icon you see online.

I don't think such a site must always be totally great professional design as sometimes the human touches appear to that market.

However: I'd replace the revolving dolphins in the title with a revolving world globe of similar size as the circling dolphins and perhaps have the world rotating within an "O". Then I would clean up the background where the text is - far too much business behind the text.

Larger text - wider layout of text - focus on no more than 3 colors used - one main and two accent - the point is readability and that is lacking.

I don't think it's horrid - but without destroying your client's main ideas (showing the globe, etc) it could be so much more effective. I can see where the client is coming from and why some of those elementary are important to him - your job is to arrange them in a way that improves the site without removing elements the client wants. May mean adjusting rather than re-doing.

With the client I would focus on "simplifying" and "cleaning up" the site.

kay

[Barbara Wilson]

Ambitious site.

The text is hard to read on all pages since it's over an image background. The home page orange/green text is particularly difficult to read over the earth image. But it doesn't really improve a lot on most of the other pages.

With each page being so different - it took me a while to realize I was staying on the same site. I did finally notice that the header/navigation was the same from page to page. But with the different backgrounds and new url's - I thought at first I was being sent to different sites.

Looks like there's a layout problem - on some pages the text is all in a narrow left or right column in IE. Just checked FF and same thing. I didn't look at the source code - is this intentional?

Lofty ambition - I wish them all the luck in the world. The site would be easier to read if it were simplified. At the very least, get rid of those background images or put a white background in the frames behind the content text.

Why the frames, by the way?

They've got different domains for everything - is there a reason everything is linked together in one site? I didn't try to look at everything - but could it be broken up into different sites? That would simplify the navigation considerably.

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

This client has nearly 200 websites.... like this.... I don't need Analytics to tell me that the design is crappy and the animated header does not help his cause.

You don't need Analytics -- but perhaps your client needs proof?

[Joseph Then]

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

This client has nearly 200 websites.... like this.... I don't need Analytics to tell me that the design is crappy and the animated header does not help his cause.

Stats can help. Talking doesn't.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Oddly, the thing that bothered me most is the dolphins going and round to make the "O" - because it's so like the "loading" icon you see online.

I don't think such a site must always be totally great professional design as sometimes the human touches appear to that market.

However: I'd replace the revolving dolphins in the title with a revolving world globe of similar size as the circling dolphins and perhaps have the world rotating within an "O". Then I would clean up the background where the text is - far too much business behind the text.

Larger text - wider layout of text - focus on no more than 3 colors used - one main and two accent - the point is readability and that is lacking.

I don't think it's horrid - but without destroying your client's main ideas (showing the globe, etc) it could be so much more effective. I can see where the client is coming from and why some of those elementary are important to him - your job is to arrange them in a way that improves the site without removing elements the client wants. May mean adjusting rather than re-doing.

With the client I would focus on "simplifying" and "cleaning up" the site.

kay

Hey Kay,

Yes, adjusting it is the whole idea, but having to keep the color scheme and amateurish buttons and headers is problematic for me. The one with the dolphins doesn't bother me THAT much and yes, I do prefer that it's a globe rotating, but it's sites like the other one where there is so many things clustered into the header. He thinks having all of that helps and that it will make the visitor want to read what is on the site.

If you look at the very top image with the date, full screen, etc tabs, that entire thing is present on EVERY single site. Same color, same layout. It's hard to work with when that is what you have to base a new design off of and you cannot change the color of it.

My main concern with this is - does the header really get visitors wanting to read? I think not. Especially when the text itself is hard to read.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by R Hagel

You don't need Analytics -- but perhaps your client needs proof?

Originally Posted by Joseph Then

Stats can help. Talking doesn't.

I agree. And this discussion will surely help as well. However, the reason I'm dismissing it is because there's almost zero traffic at this point. Analytics can certainly be installed on a few major sites to see how it responds, but I don't there are very many sites with a lot of SE or other generated traffic. It's all direct.

Once it gets going, ALL sites will have Analytics regardless.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Barbara Wilson

Ambitious site.

The text is hard to read on all pages since it's over an image background. The home page orange/green text is particularly difficult to read over the earth image. But it doesn't really improve a lot on most of the other pages.

With each page being so different - it took me a while to realize I was staying on the same site. I did finally notice that the header/navigation was the same from page to page. But with the different backgrounds and new url's - I thought at first I was being sent to different sites.

Looks like there's a layout problem - on some pages the text is all in a narrow left or right column in IE. Just checked FF and same thing. I didn't look at the source code - is this intentional?

Lofty ambition - I wish them all the luck in the world. The site would be easier to read if it were simplified. At the very least, get rid of those background images or put a white background in the frames behind the content text.

Why the frames, by the way?

They've got different domains for everything - is there a reason everything is linked together in one site? I didn't try to look at everything - but could it be broken up into different sites? That would simplify the navigation considerably.

You certainly point out a lot of things that I agree with. I don't know why frames. I can only imagine that they think it's best that way in keeping everything above the fold. As for having everything there... well... I don't know. I'll get these things taken care of later.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

This client has nearly 200 websites.... like this.... I don't need Analytics to tell me that the design is crappy and the animated header does not help his cause.

Wow. I didn't even realize there was an animated header! I guess I didn't pay enough attention to the header to notice.

Then again, the whole color scheme and layout makes your head spin, so who can really tell if there is animation or if it's an optical illusion?

[jmidas]

Kevin, I spent less than 3 seconds on each site - awful design, impossible to read. Bad navigation. Just plain bad. One of your questions was "does it want to make read the content?" Answer is: no chance.

I hope that your disagreement is that you want to tear them down adn re-do them and he (for some reason) likes them.

Just send him to the link to this thread if that is the case.

[Kevin Lam]

Yes, I want to rip it all down and start from scratch! The quality is just so poor. It's all thrown together and I'm hesitant to put my name anywhere. I have to turn these pages into something I'd be proud to say I took a part in.

They have a GREAT cause, the concept behind it is great, but the "first impression" is killing it. So I thank everyone that is taking part and saying all of this. This will allow me a little leverage to convince my client to move on to something that is dynamic yet simple, simple yet professional, professional yet personal.

[tschlotter]

Originally Posted by Kay King

With the client I would focus on "simplifying" and "cleaning up" the site.

kay

I totally agree, let your client keep the elements he's really attached to, and give it a clean design so people can instantly see what the sites all about and how to navigate it. They also both load really slow, probably because of all the misc. stuff and frames, etc. You could also point out to him that his Alexa ranking is really crappy 18,000,000 and 21,000,000! (What can I say - I have to toolbar installed and always notice that stuff!) Even my totally unprofessionally designed site at 200 Instant Payment Paypal Programs has a page rank of 460,000 for some strange reason!

Have fun,

Tina

[Taylor French]

Crikey! The first thing I did was close the browser tabs as fast as possible. Those sites are horrible, and I didn't want to read any of the content. I just wanted to leave as soon as possible.

You are correct, your client does not want a site like these. They are horrible.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by tschlotter

I totally agree, let your client keep the elements he's really attached to, and give it a clean design so people can instantly see what the sites all about and how to navigate it. They also both load really slow, probably because of all the misc. stuff and frames, etc. You could also point out to him that his Alexa ranking is really crappy 18,000,000 and 21,000,000! (What can I say - I have to toolbar installed and always notice that stuff!) Even my totally unprofessionally designed site at 200 Instant Payment Paypal Programs has a page rank of 460,000 for some strange reason!

Have fun,

Tina

Hey Tina,

Thanks for agreeing with Kay, I did too. Don't worry about Alexa. It's not a major concern. I mean, to those who care about Alexa, yes it matters. To a lot of us marketers, no, Alexa is not a concern. His ranking will drop like lead in the ocean by the time I'm done with it, but the goal is to have a great visual presentation upon receiving visitors.

It doesn't matter if his sites will unlock the secrets to life, but if no one wants to even stick around to read it, who cares? Traffic in my opinion is secondary.

[countonuspr]

Those are terrible! They look like something designed prior to the year 2000 even! For one thing you can't even read the text and another thing the colors are overbearing and horribly distracting. They will have hard time conducting any business on those sites. They look very amateurish. I can't believe they like those sites!

[n00b]

Wow, the only thing that's missing is the Geocities graphic, rainbow sparklies coming from my cursor, and some digital music that starts playing right away (you know the kind I'm talking about.)

There is no way I would ever take either of those websites seriously. They really do remind me of something a kid would make in Geocities. I would say your client needs to decide if he wants his websites to be respected authority sites or if he wants to feel like they look like his definition of "cool". My little sister likes Bedazzling her clothes, but that doesn't mean I'd let her go anywhere professional or serious wearing them. That's what those sites remind me of, a six year old out of control with a Bedazzler.

Seriously though, even if one of those sites showed up first in Google for what I'm searching for, as soon as I saw it I would click back and think, "Oops, not what I'm looking for."

I'd guess that Google analytics would do a good job of illustrating this, his bounce back rate has got to be through the roof.

[Kevin Lam]

countonuspr & n00b<<< Exactly! I feel so bad... they were actually impressed and proud of it. I don't want to rain on their parade or whatever. I truly want to help them and if tearing away at their design and telling them that it sucks is what it takes... I'm willing to take that risk. I am willing to lose the business with the client as I am not willing to risk my reputation and leave them to hang dry by going on like this when I know they're going to regret it in the future after spewing millions of dollars into no where. That's just not good business for anyone.

[Bcrewse1]

Hahahaha.....from all the traffic you are generating to these sites from the warrior forum your
client is going to think his sites are WONDERFUL...lol....nice ad campaign.

[Kevin Lam]

Hahaahahahahahahaha, I think not! I'm going to remove the links when this thread is done. Besides, they don't have analytics installed yet to know. They'd have to look in their server logs, but they're way too busy to even get to that. I'm emailing him about this now.

[mblair13]

Both sites are very hard to read. I would assume that they both couldn't afford to hire help or they had their kid do it. (Although many 'kids' I know could do a much better job.)
Maybe it's my age (almost 50) but I am most attracted to sites that are easy to read and not all cluttered up. Soothing colors instead of shocking. Hope that helps.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

countonuspr & n00b<<< Exactly! I feel so bad... they were actually impressed and proud of it. I don't want to rain on their parade or whatever. I truly want to help them and if tearing away at their design and telling them that it sucks is what it takes... I'm willing to take that risk. I am willing to lose the business with the client as I am not willing to risk my reputation and leave them to hang dry by going on like this when I know they're going to regret it in the future after spewing millions of dollars into no where. That's just not good business for anyone.

Kevin, if you need an analogy to use, consider the Cadillac...

In the 1960s, a Caddy was all about being a block long with the big fins. For the time, it was state-of-the-art.

Fast forward to today. A Cadillac is sleek, aerodynamic. Even the Escalade bears little resemblance to the old classics.

On your client's sites, the frames, cheesy backgrounds, etc. are the tailfins...

[jasonl70]

wow.. bad bad bad bad.. just plain bad

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

On your client's sites, the frames, cheesy backgrounds, etc. are the tailfins...

or the curb feelers, fake cell antenna, bubbled window tint, mismatched tires, fuzzy dice, mud flaps, neon license plate frame, fake side pipes, faded neon decals, fuzzy/shag dash cover, pink zebra stipe seat covers, etc.. all on the same car.

[kkrueger]

You may suggest to your clients that they look at other organizations that have a similar goal, and see how their websites are laid out. Or even give them big organizations websites to look at so they can see these companies have spent thousands of dollars for web site design that is easy to read, easy to navigate, and is user friendly. Maybe the pictures that they are in love with could be included somewhere in the site, but make the sheet opaque, and change the font color to black on white.

Big name sites like PETA, Humane Society and other organizations dealing with saving the earth and animals so they can see, that they have to be user friendly and take the personal taste out of it.

This has been a big lesson for me lately, "Take the personal out, and make it all business".

Hope this helps...

Karen

[DougBarger]

Kind of looks like just a bit "too clever" with the orange text matching the paypal button in the hopes of getting more clickthroughs there.

Actually the orange text makes it very difficult to read and on top of that, there's
a background with all kinds of image to distract even further in case it wasn't
difficult enough to read already.

Black text on white background, while not necessarily 'innovative' will at least
allow your visitors to read the copy which contrary to some circles, is
exactly what gets people to take action.

If what they read hits them the right way and they want to take an action,
then they will. If not, they won't.

No one just clicks a donate button and sends money just because
they like the pretty pictures.

They have to know what's going on. And in order to know what's going on,
you have to be able to read the text.

The other site looks like it has all the text 'scrunched up' on the right side there
like where testimonials would go on a salespage, but it makes reading it and taking
it seriously just too much to pull off with the way it's all jumbled together on the right
with nothing at all on the whole entire 75% of the page to the left where in English speaking
markets the reader reads from left to right.

Definitely needs some work. Consider your suspicions confirmed and I hope
your client will trust you to do what works for them so they can have a better performing site.

[artwebster]

I suppose I am like the old Cadilac, a block long and bloody thick!

JUST WHOSE SITES ARE THESE?

Forgive my naïvety but aren't you supposed to be offering your client a service? Isn't your client going to get a bill when you have finished?

You disagree with your client - fair enough - BUT it is his money and as long as you have done your best, either give him what he wants or find someone who will.

I don't suppose you have bothered to find out why your client is so attached to these designs - sorry, you're an internet marketer so that was a stupid thing to say, of course you haven't.

I used to have the most awful picture hanging in my sitting room until somebody stole it and just about everything else. Everybody used to remark how awful the picture was and asked me why I kept it there.

I kept it there because it was the last picture that my son painted before he died. Once people understood that, I never got asked about that picture again.

You need to get something straight here, if your client wants ugly (because he happens to like it) and he likes great colours - who the hell are you to try to tell him that his tastes are wrong?

Instead of trying to be God almighty and 'commanding' this poor soul to do as you instruct him, why don't you sit down quietly with him and have a conversation? Why don't you ask a few little questions that might help you to understand him.

There is far too much in the IM world that I do not like and this over bearing idea that IMers have that they are the only people who know the answers is one of the most destructive aspects of them all.

Disagree with your client by all means - you don't have to agree with him - but he is paying you to do a job and somewhere in that arrangement must be the understanding that he is the final arbiter of taste.

[DougBarger]

If clinging to his tastes prevents him from getting the results he says he wants,
then he can't hold you responsible for not getting results if he won't let you do
what gets results.

If you explain to him that his tastes are preventing him from getting the results
he says he wants and he insists on those tastes, then that is his choice, but
he must understand he can't cling to what doesn't work and expect to get
the results of what does work at the same time.

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by artwebster

I suppose I am like the old Cadilac, a block long and bloody thick!

JUST WHOSE SITES ARE THESE?

Forgive my naïvety but aren't you supposed to be offering your client a service? Isn't your client going to get a bill when you have finished?

You disagree with your client - fair enough - BUT it is his money and as long as you have http://www.warriorforum.com/newreply...y&p=757128done your best, either give him what he wants or find someone who will.

I don't suppose you have bothered to find out why your client is so attached to these designs - sorry, you're an internet marketer so that was a stupid thing to say, of course you haven't.

I used to have the most awful picture hanging in my sitting room until somebody stole it and just about everything else. Everybody used to remark how awful the picture was and asked me why I kept it there.

I kept it there because it was the last picture that my son painted before he died. Once people understood that, I never got asked about that picture again.

You need to get something straight here, if your client wants ugly (because he happens to like it) and he likes great colours - who the hell are you to try to tell him that his tastes are wrong?

Instead of trying to be God almighty and 'commanding' this poor soul to do as you instruct him, why don't you sit down quietly with him and have a conversation? Why don't you ask a few little questions that might help you to understand him.

There is far too much in the IM world that I do not like and this over bearing idea that IMers have that they are the only people who know the answers is one of the most destructive aspects of them all.

Disagree with your client by all means - you don't have to agree with him - but he is paying you to do a job and somewhere in that arrangement must be the understanding that he is the final arbiter of taste.

Okay, back up there. Why would you think I didn't bother to ask? I brought it up to him and he felt the animated headers is stimulating, hypnotic and subliminal... to get the visitor to read. I disagreed and just about everyone here. Yes, it's his money, but it's MY reputation. I'm sorry, but I am happy to work with a different client than to ruin my reputation.

Let's see: Lose reputation, no future business. Lose this client, gain future business with other clients. Yeah, I can do that.

I'm sorry to hear about your picture that got stolen. That action is awful, but it was meaningful to you because it WAS painted by your son. In this case, it's different - it's a design by an amateur and yet he thinks it's the best thing ever. All I have are my words and opinion. I figured I could get feedback from others here to reaffirm my concerns. Of course, if I was wrong, I would pull myself away and let the client go on his merry way.

So it wasn't a stupid thing to say, although I think that was a wrong assumption and rude of you to say so of me just because I'm an "Internet marketer". I'm surely not as mature as you, but I do like to do things right. You want me to just get the job done, that's just not good enough. That's like saying, screw him over as long as he pays. I know it's not to that extent, but come on.

You think I haven't sat down and chatted with him for several hours to discuss what he wants. I'm sorry, you're not here to hear our conversations so who are you to think I haven't? So let's stick with the topic at hand. Thank you for your time and consideration for the client.

[artwebster]

I brought it up to him and he felt the animated headers is stimulating, hypnotic and subliminal... to get the visitor to read. I disagreed and just about everyone here. Yes, it's his money, but it's MY reputation. I'm sorry, but I am happy to work with a different client than to ruin my reputation.

So, you made an attempt to start a conversation - that is simply not enough!

Did you ask WHY? Did you ask WHAT IF? or did you simply do what you have done in this forum and assume that you know better than your client?

My whole point was that you are disagreeing with your client on standards of your own and assuming that everybody who visits his web site is going to feel the way you do. Does he have all the traffic he wants? Is he looking to increase traffic? Why are you the first person (and he has 200 sites, you say) to disagree with the client?

You say your reputation is on the line but why is it? You don't have to put an ad on his sites saying you built them - I'm sure you will receive enough compensation without that, so nobody need know - and you still have a client with 200 web sites who can provide you with a regular flow of work.

Then, of course, you could always discuss the the 'suck it and see' model - build him the sort of site you want to build and let it compete with one his existing sites.

By going head to head with me on this issue (the reason I worded my response so strongly) you have illustrated one of the major weaknesses of many internet marketers when dealing with offline clients - you won't listen and you don't fact find.

A disagreement such as you and your client have can be used to build a relationship that will enhance both your and his reputations - but you are blowing it by not knowing some basics about handling objections.

[AndyBlackSEO]

Kevin, the best thing that they could do to help themselves is to hand the reigns over to you and give you full control over this project.

After all, your are the professional in web design and I'm, not them.

If they want to take a forward step online, then they should leave it to you to create the professional image that their business needs.

[Kevin Lam]

Artwebster, now you're just being crude and impolite. I don't have time nor the interest to even read your whole post, because obviously disagreeing with you is like disagreeing with God. Get a life and have a good day.

Andy, thanks. I'll be sure to discuss things with my client and make sure he'll be completely happy rather than to run him over with what I think is best and completely ignore his wants.

[artwebster]

Artwebster, now you're just being crude and tacky. I don't have time nor the interest to even read your whole post, because obviously disagreeing with you is like disagreeing with God. Get a life and have a good day.

Crude and Tacky? You need to start to learn to see opinion when it is offered and help when it is offered - agree or disagree, I have no objection to that.

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ASKING FOR HELP IF YOUR MIND IS CLOSED TIGHTER THAN A RAT TRAP?

[Kevin Lam]

Artwebster, I asked for help in determining the quality of the sites, not a request of assumptions of me not consulting and discussing things with my client. You came running in like a bat out of hell as if I don't have a clue to dealing with clients.

I agree that I should be doing the things you think I should be doing... thing is, I am, but you keep making the assumption as if I am not. That is not advice. That is you ridiculing me and undermining my intelligence, thus why I feel it is crude and tacky. To say that going against you head-to-head shows how weak I am as an Internet marketer is simply saying anyone that argues with you doesn't have a clue.

You think I stopped at just "opening" the conversation and think it's ended there? Come on. Another one of your assumptions. I'm not assuming people will feel the way I do. Are you not reading the responses of people here? I know I don't have to include my link on his site, but I would still like to include him as a client. That means I would have to link to his website(s). If the job isn't good, you don't think that will hurt me for future business?

What you think is HELPING, really isn't. You're just insulting me as if YOU know it all. Just back off already, would ya? I gratefully and greatly appreciate help from people, but you simply aren't. Insulting and accusations does nothing for anyone. You seem to just have a vendetta with "internet marketers" altogether. Let it go, my friend.

I'm done responding to you. You can keep typing away and I won't really care to check back. Again, have a good day and take it easy. You really need to just let it go.

[artwebster]

You still don't understand, do you?

Asking about the quality of the web sites is not helping your client.

Getting other people's opinions about the web sites is not helping your client.

The only way to help your client is to get to understand him, get to know him, work with him and stop doing what you are so eloquently accusing me of - pretending that you are the only one who knows anything.

I have tried to help you to see where the direction you are heading may not be the right one. I have opened up areas of consideration that your original post gave every indication had been ignored.

As a consultant you should realise the danger of thinking that all processes run on tram lines and that you are the arbiter of taste for each of your clients. You have to realise that 'consultancy' does not equate to dictatorship and that if your client does not see the value of your advice, you have to learn how to handle that situation.

The situation you have created is that you think that your clients web sites are very poor quality and you have sought approval for that view in this forum - you have the readers approval to consider the sites of poor quality and you have rejected what I have said as being worthless even though, in your OP you have said quite clearly:-
I have a client that is set on his ways and I just want to see how the audience reacts to what he feels.
I have reacted to what I think the client feels because I have had to try to work that out for myself since you do not bother to let anybody know what the client feels.