Web developers can be a real pain in the backside!

15 years ago

Does the term 'Nigerian scam' mean anything to you?

How well do you know this developer? Have you met him? Do you know where he lives?

I only ask because this very convoluted tale sounds doomed not to have a happy ending.

Hopefully I am wrong.

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holdem8 15 years ago

I have met a handful of them in eLance. Usually it is their sales people who promises heaven and earth just to close the project. Then it is up to the development team to cover the holes the sales guy dug.
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Dan Ambrose

15 years ago

Originally Posted by artwebster

Does the term 'Nigerian scam' mean anything to you?

How well do you know this developer? Have you met him? Do you know where he lives?

I only ask because this very convoluted tale sounds doomed not to have a happy ending.

Hopefully I am wrong.

No I don't know him from Adam, however he has twice now sent me screenshots of the work in progress since the beginning of last month (so I know work is being done).

Also, he was recommended by another company I have dealt with.

ALSO, since I finished the installments, he has sent me a few emails apologizing for the delays, whereas if it was a scam, they would have done a runner once all payment was received.

SO, I am not worried about it being a scam - just peeved at the length of time its taking,.!

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NicheProdigy

Banned 15 years ago

I really hope you get everything that you paid for and this does have a "happy ending"

You have much more patience than me on this one. I don't think I could handle dealing with someone like that. I have heard of extending the deadline due to complications, but 5 times? Ouch.

I believe that there is a saying that goes something along the lines of "Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me!"

I definitely use this phrase when I am outsourcing because there are just too many unscrupulous characters out there.

Not only has he exhausted your funds, which I usually don't like parting with, but he has also taken some of your most precious commodity, and that is Time. I really dislike people wasting my time!

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Tyrus Antas

15 years ago

Did you strong arm him into accepting any kind of crazy headline? As an ex-consultant that was usually a problem. Clients want everything done by yesterday and developers just agree and hope for the best. Hopefully this wasn't the case

Tyrus

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Dan Ambrose

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tyrus Antas

Did you strong arm him into accepting any kind of crazy headline? As an ex-consultant that was usually a problem. Clients want everything done by yesterday and developers just agree and hope for the best. Hopefully this wasn't the case

Tyrus

It is probably true I expected it to be done sooner than it was really possible, however I am only going by his deadlines. If he cannot get something done by a particular date, then he really shouldn't say he will.

I never said to him, get it done by a particular date - I merely asked him when I could expect completion.

It is much better to say to me, it will be fully completed in 4 weeks time, instead of telling me each week it will be "done by next week". Doing the former is disappointing you have to wait so long, but at least you know where you stand with it all. Doing the latter just fuels frustration.

Daniel

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

That is what happens when you deal with developers you do not know and when you deal with people not in your country. I have had many clients come to me because their developers took months to do something that should have taken 2 weeks...

Personally I would have never made the last installment.. I have found many clients that have paid for work that the entire script would have to be trashed because it was so poorly coded... Looking at the front end and it being all pretty does not mean you have a well coded script.

Many wanabee developers have been known just to throw sites together to get paid and do not care about the actual code, security, or anything ...

James

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NicheProdigy

Banned 15 years ago

-Tyrus - This might be true in some cases, and for the sake of getting some work in we might agree to a deadline that might not be realistic, but stretching the deadline multiple times like that is a bit odd.

No matter what we are doing we have a general idea of truly how long it will take us. Bugs always come out, it is just a nature of the business, and revisions are required, but that is just a bit much don't you think? "I will have it Monday, ok no, now I will have it next Tuesday?" That is a gross overestimation or just a flat out lie.

What probably happened was that he took on more work than he could chew and could not handle the workload. Either way, he should have just been more upfront and honest about the estimation.

When I first started out, I used to do the same thing, thinking that I would be able to meet the deadlines. I ended up pulling my hair out to try and satisfy everyone. That didn't work out too well. Now I know what I can do. If I can do it within the time allotted then I will take on the project. If I can't then I have no problem with letting the client know,

"It would most likely be best for you if you were to try another xxx, because I do not believe that I can have this done for you by xxx. I could honestly, most likely have this for you by xxx. If that is not a problem, this is how we should proceed"

Overpromising and underdelivering is a surefire way to failure. It is also very stressful. Most experienced service providers know this, so they either change their tactics or they stop conducting business.

Sorry about the long rant, guess I was in a typing mood

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templarjustice

15 years ago

Overall, it's your fault. You are not managing your team & resources effectively.
You need & should have demanded up front a daily reporting schedule & demand that he fill it out to your liking. Also, given the fact he was late, without any reasons, is very suspect. That should be reported as well. Then you can actually track the issues & figure out if he is even right for the job from day one. Cause if he can't even commit to a daily report of what he did & the results of his efforts as well as a action plan for the next day, then there's something wrong. If it was me, I would have terminated him the 1st time he stated he was going to be late - especially not having a back up for his actions.
Also, it's probably your fault for not being clear in your needs & documentation. At the end of the day, people don't know what you want. You need to tell him what you want. That's the service provided. He's developing based on your needs. So, you need to tell him what to do.
Outsourcing is all well & dandy, but there is an art to it. At the end of the day, true outsourcing shouldn't be a friendly encounter. It's a get it done or die attitude. I say this, because, if things don't get done, then no one eats. So, forget the "building relationships" crap. You need to demand satisfaction. Money don't grow on trees. And everyone is replaceable. The first time things are late, I always have a back-up person ready to takeover.

"What do you mean you can't do it, just do this. No? Looks like we'll have to part ways." -- If you don't have a clear plan, then why should he.

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Dan Ambrose

15 years ago

Originally Posted by templarjustice

Overall, it's your fault. You are not managing your team & resources effectively.

Actually, I am. This has nothing to do with my team and resources.. this is a simple case of me employing a developer to do a job based on a high recommendation from another company I have worked with on a number of occasions.

Originally Posted by templarjustice

You need & should have demanded up front a daily reporting schedule & demand that he fill it out to your liking. Also, given the fact he was late, without any reasons, is very suspect. That should be reported as well. Then you can actually track the issues & figure out if he is even right for the job from day one. Cause if he can't even commit to a daily report of what he did & the results of his efforts as well as a action plan for the next day, then there's something wrong. If it was me, I would have terminated him the 1st time he stated he was going to be late - especially not having a back up for his actions.

Sure, hindsight is a wonderful thing. But to be honest, I'm not even that bothered about having a daily report... just that deadlines HE set were met (therefore to avoid me looking lacklustre in front of my members expecting the new area). And for the communication issue I desire - I meant that if it was coming up to the deadline and he didn't think it was going to be met, then a few days beforehand (or even a day before) let me know in advance, instead of having me chase him up after not hearing anything a day after the expected date of completion.

Originally Posted by templarjustice

Also, it's probably your fault for not being clear in your needs & documentation. At the end of the day, people don't know what you want. You need to tell him what you want. That's the service provided. He's developing based on your needs. So, you need to tell him what to do.

Woah there buddy! - how do you know I wasn't clear in my demands? If you re-read my orinial post, you'll see this clearly isn't the issue.

I was extremely clear with everything beforehand and he even double checked he had it right (he did)... the issue here is the length of time he's taking doing the job that we agreed on before initial payment was made.

Originally Posted by templarjustice

Money don't grow on trees. And everyone is replaceable. The first time things are late, I always have a back-up person ready to takeover.

Yes, I had/have a number of other companies a s backup. However having received excellent recommendations on the developers expertise as well as paying him 50% upfront, which is a common procedure, I didn't want to be like "oh forget it, I've decided to waste the last week I've been waiting and Im going to start from scratch with another company.. oh and I'll have to say goodbye to the initial payment won't I!" NO - The clever thing he has done is 'kept me on the line'.. by saying its just "going take a few more days" etc...

I don't want to waste the last months wait and payment, when the project is (hopefully) near completion.

I await his next contact.

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

Originally Posted by templarjustice

Overall, it's your fault. You are not managing your team & resources effectively.
You need & should have demanded up front a daily reporting schedule & demand that he fill it out to your liking. Also, given the fact he was late, without any reasons, is very suspect. That should be reported as well. Then you can actually track the issues & figure out if he is even right for the job from day one. Cause if he can't even commit to a daily report of what he did & the results of his efforts as well as a action plan for the next day, then there's something wrong. If it was me, I would have terminated him the 1st time he stated he was going to be late - especially not having a back up for his actions.
Also, it's probably your fault for not being clear in your needs & documentation. At the end of the day, people don't know what you want. You need to tell him what you want. That's the service provided. He's developing based on your needs. So, you need to tell him what to do.
Outsourcing is all well & dandy, but there is an art to it. At the end of the day, true outsourcing shouldn't be a friendly encounter. It's a get it done or die attitude. I say this, because, if things don't get done, then no one eats. So, forget the "building relationships" crap. You need to demand satisfaction. Money don't grow on trees. And everyone is replaceable. The first time things are late, I always have a back-up person ready to takeover.

"What do you mean you can't do it, just do this. No? Looks like we'll have to part ways." -- If you don't have a clear plan, then why should he.

Wow ... I have been developing websites for over 15 years and I must say and no offense but with that attitude I would not work for you ...

I pay a staff + I do work myself.. I do have a relationship with my staff, I have sent them gifts in the mail, I have talked with them on the phone, and etc .. I have one staff member that has been working for me for years.

I must disagree about "forget the relationship crap" ... This is a business and I must tell you many developers would take a huge offense to your "Get It Done" attitude. The fact is we run our own business and you do not own us nor are you our boss, this is the reason why we own our own business.

I have dealt with thousands of clients over the years, some have been nice while others have a bad attitude. Unlike most though I write out a entire work plan for my clients even when they do not know what they fully want. I will offer them this or that and then we will discuss what to add or remove before any work even begins. I never ever give an exact date for completion because we all have a LIFE and things in LIFE happen, so I estimate and then add a few days or even a week onto that estimate. Every website I build the client also has full access to see the development of that site LIVE.

The OP's problem is he hired someone he knows nothing about and the person probably got too many clients on his plate so he makes excuses to one to another... I have seen this time and time again.

To the OP building a true relationship with a developer will get you more than you know.

James

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templarjustice

15 years ago

I can agree with you on somethings, yeah, when you are small time.
However, when you look at people like Mike Filsaime, or even John Reese on the side of IM, and also on the side of companies like Facebook, TechCrunch or even Calcanis & his multiple ventures, also working with venture capitalists. Everyone of these guys used outsourcers at some point, but I'll tell you this, the workers didn't sleep. They didn't take the time to build the relationships, because that's what it wasn't about. They demanded a specific result by a specific time. If they weren't proving viable, they were terminated. It was non-stop work. And non-stop work, to a service provided, is simply non-stop pay. When you are a start-up, and even in this IM business, in the beginning, THERE IS NO LIFE. That' the misconception in all of this.
This is the point i'm trying to make. And I've dealt with many service providers & have learned plain & simple to act just like corporations do, but faster. And yes, you may own your own business & you should know full & well, that you need to produce....bottom line. You don't produce, you don't eat.
On one side, if the client is not knowledgeable, it's your job to provide the at least some teaching or consultative advice. I myself, not only have a deep knowledge & provide more research & insight than developers even have. But I do respect & accept their opinion.

But again, I still say its' OP's fault becuase not only he should have received a daily or weekly report to figure out what was going wrong.
Yeah, the guy may have notified him of delays. But, maybe, the client could have stepped in & helped solve the problem, or addressed a concern about deadlines. For me, I would have required a daily report. I use those reports to find out what was done, how it was done, how long it took & what problems were faced. It's a simple task delivered at the end of the day. It has sped up all of my work 100%, and I have outsourcers who enjoy the model because it's consistent & constant communication. And because everyone knows what's going on, everyone can go about their own lives just a bit easier.

Oh, and to prove my point that in this business, there is no life when you are starting up (or in this case -- launching) http://www.mikefilsaime.com/blog4/?p=265 It's get it done time baby!

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

Wow ... I have been developing websites for over 15 years and I must say and no offense but with that attitude I would not work for you ...

I pay a staff + I do work myself.. I do have a relationship with my staff, I have sent them gifts in the mail, I have talked with them on the phone, and etc .. I have one staff member that has been working for me for years.

I must disagree about "forget the relationship crap" ... This is a business and I must tell you many developers would take a huge offense to your "Get It Done" attitude. The fact is we run our own business and you do not own us nor are you our boss, this is the reason why we own our own business.

I have dealt with thousands of clients over the years, some have been nice while others have a bad attitude. Unlike most though I write out a entire work plan for my clients even when they do not know what they fully want. I will offer them this or that and then we will discuss what to add or remove before any work even begins. I never ever give an exact date for completion because we all have a LIFE and things in LIFE happen, so I estimate and then add a few days or even a week onto that estimate. Every website I build the client also has full access to see the development of that site LIVE.

The OP's problem is he hired someone he knows nothing about and the person probably got too many clients on his plate so he makes excuses to one to another... I have seen this time and time again.

To the OP building a true relationship with a developer will get you more than you know.

James

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Dan Ambrose

15 years ago

To the OP building a true relationship with a developer will get you more than you know.

James

Thanks James, duly noted for future reference

With that said, if the developer was better at communicating, I wouldn't be so irate. The worst is when you expect something to be done by a certain date and it isn't AND you can't seem to get hold of the person and ask what's going on. I only ask for an update, not 'what the hell is going on'..

99% of those I have worked with will tell you I am a very nice person to work with and provdie service for. I am (generally) patient, a good communicator and a prompt payer.

I even let the developers get on with it (no-one likes being hassled whilst they're trying to do a job). Just an update every now and again goes a long way with me - it allows me to update others also eagerly waiting.

Daniel

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

You are correct Daniel .. I understand nobody wants to sit back and wait and wait and wait...

This is why my clients have always had access to the site as it is being built in LIVE time and I have always been on Instant Message 16 - 18 hours a day 7 days a week...

James

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Karen Blundell 15 years ago

Daniel, I have been doing freelance work for ages and I have to say in this case you are perfectly justified in how you feel.

I hope it all works out for you...good luck!
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TrafficMystic

15 years ago

To stop the issue you should have put in rigid time scales for completion and if agreed you should have added a clause that reduced the development payment for each delay..

Bugs always also creep in so the final payment should have been delayed until you were happy with the testing done (and had a copy of the unit / system testing docs)

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hangtimenino

15 years ago

well, this is certainly an eye opener for you as well as for us.hopefully, everything will be done, and you will get back your money's worth.:-)

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servpro 15 years ago

You got to be careful. I have hired great programmers based on their profile and rating later to learn that they just hand the project off to some less talented person.
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Droopy Dawg

15 years ago

I learned web design soon after I learned how to use a computer (back in '94)... one of the best decisions I ever made

Sorry about your issues Dan... its always good to know someone that offers the services that you need because you run the risk of getting screwed if you hire the unknown. But then again... you gotta do what you gotta do... and I understand that. Good luck finding a reputable web designer Daniel.

DeShon

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n00b

15 years ago

Sometimes we need to remember that people skills are something we need as internet marketing professionals just as much as we need any other skills.

I firmly believe How to Win Friends and Influence People should be required reading in High School ahead of all other literature (I still don't know how reading The Scarlet Letter improved my life). If you haven't read it I strongly suggest you go get a copy right now and spend a few hours reading it. It is my #1 book for anyone wanting to succeed in any field. It will teach how to not only build loyalty, but also get increased productivity and results. It's one of those books that you just read over and over again. I try to read it at least twice year. Anyone who masters the skills in that book will hold the world in their hand.

This is a people business, even if it feels like we're always behind a computer screen. After all, you want people to open up their wallets for you, give you service, work with you, JV with you, teach you, etc. If it weren't for all the other people you wouldn't have a business so you should probably learn how to relate with them in a manner that generates the best result for both of you. Therefore, I believe there is no such thing as "relationship crap". Relationships are all we have in business, if you have non, you're not in business.

I'm sorry for your frustration. Lack of effective communication is a serious problem. Hopefully it will all work out. Of course, hind sight is 20/20, the best thing you can do from this is learn from it for when you enter into your next freelance relationship and hopefully that one will go smoother. (And I don't think demanding is the right way to go, people do things for one reason only, they want to, they don't care at all what you want, that's why the key is learning how to show someone that doing what you want will get them what they want, I think Dale Carnegie would agree.)

Please let us know how it works out!

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

Perfectly said n00b....

I sure have not been in business all these years for being demanding and rude to staff members, customers, or clients...

James

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Web developers can be a real pain in the backside!

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