Twitter Auto-DMs are Pure Evil

by Dana_W
145 replies
Okay, so I follow a few hundred new people on Twitter every day, which is part of the reason that I have built up a huge Twitter following.

And what this means is...every day I get DOZENS of pointless auto-DMs in my Twitter mailbox, thanking me for following and offering me a free report or a free video.

Let me tell you - offering me your free report does NOT make me like you more. There's so much free information out there these days that giving away a free report is basically meaningless unless it's coming from someone like Marlon Sanders or Willie Crawford or John Reese or Big Mike or Mike Filsaime, who have already proven that they know what they're talking about.

It's really slow and tedious to erase DMs on Twitter so I don't usually bother. So now I have almost 5000 DMs in my mailbox, and furthermore....buried among those dozens of DMs that I get every day...are usually several DMs from people inquiring about my press release services or just wanting to ask me a question. So I HAVE to scan all of those dozens of spam DMs to make sure I'm not missing any.

My advice - don't waste your time with auto DMs. If you want to communicate with anyone, take the time to send them a real live message addressed to them; it's a million times more powerful then an automated message.
#autodms #evil #pure #twitter
  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    lol, the auto dm is a big debate on Twitter these days. I use to actually type a dm for every new follower that just said "thanks for the follow" and everyone thought it was an auto dm but I was actually writing it! So now I do not send a dm at all. I actually try to send an @reply to each new follower but as an actualy response to something they have tweeted recently. Takes a lot more time but it engages them immediatly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Dana, there's kind of a mixed and conflicting message here.

    You say that a DM giving a free report is worthless unless it's coming from
    one of those names you mentioned above. Okay, fair enough.

    So then are you saying it's okay for successful people to use auto DMs?

    If so, who decides what's successful?

    I'm no Willie Crawford or Marlon Sanders, but I'm certainly successful.

    Shouldn't I offer people a free report?

    That's the problem when you deal with absolutes like this, not to mention
    that just because you personally don't like auto DMs doesn't mean that
    everybody else feels this way.

    Personally, they don't bother me. I just look in my email box for the ones
    from people I know who probably have something important to say and
    read those...ignoring the rest.

    I understand your frustration with having so many followers that you can't
    weed through all that crap, but to tell somebody, "You're not good enough
    to send me an auto DM", I don't know. To me, that's just being a little bit
    of an elitist and a snob.

    Sorry, but I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em.

    Nothing personal.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

      My advice - don't waste your time with auto DMs. If you want to communicate with anyone, take the time to send them a real live message addressed to them; it's a million times more powerful then an automated message.
      Agreed.

      No doubt auto-DMs are also the reason some people (ahem) don't reply to the real DMs I send them. Auto-DMs are really the scourge of Twitter. They interfere with actual messaging.

      After all, the point of social networking is the social aspect of it. Some people seem to think that social networking is all about "Have your robot talk to my robot."

      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      I understand your frustration with having so many followers that you can't
      weed through all that crap, but to tell somebody, "You're not good enough
      to send me an auto DM", I don't know. To me, that's just being a little bit
      of an elitist and a snob.
      I don't like spammers sending junk to my eMailboxes either. I don't think anyone is "good enough" to send me spam. Does that make me an elitist?

      Thankfully, many of the third-party Twitter services are dropping auto-DM options. And, with others such as Tweetlater, you can opt-out so you don't even see the junk anymore.

      Here's a sampling of my current DM stream:

      1 Personal Msg
      2 Personal Msg
      3 Auto-DM junk
      4 Auto-DM junk
      5 Auto-DM junk
      6 Auto-DM junk
      7 Personal Msg
      8 Personal Msg
      9 Auto-DM junk
      10 Auto-DM junk
      11 Auto-DM junk
      12 Auto-DM junk
      13 Auto-DM junk
      14 Auto-DM junk
      15 Auto-DM junk
      16 Personal Msg
      17 Personal Msg
      18 Personal Msg
      19 Personal Msg
      20 Personal Msg

      Before some of the third-parties dropped auto-DMs and before I found out I could opt-out from Tweetlater, it was much worse than that. Those auto-DMs interfere with real direct messaging, that is, they interfere with communications from real people. People don't sign up with social networks to communicate with bots.

      Here's the thing... If I followed someone because their tweets interested me, odds are that I've checked out their website link. That's the place to offer your free report. An auto-DM, therefore, just wastes my time and clutters my DM stream, and makes it that much harder to spot a real DM from a real person. So, what your auto-DM really says is that you don't value me or my time. Perhaps it is also a sign that your tweets do not offer enough value to entice people to check out your site. Otherwise, you would not need to spam them--I mean--auto-DM them to try to get them to visit your site.

      Originally Posted by mathiaslebesby View Post

      I created a Twitter account about a month ago, and startet following 1000 people the first day. I now have a little more then 1000 followers, but I don't really see the benefit.
      Sometimes I post a link there and maybe I get three of four clicks but that's about it.
      You need targeted followers. And then you need to tweet links of interest to them. Sometimes, I might tweet a link and only get 3 or 4 views from Twitter. Other times, I can tweet a link and get hundreds. The more worthwhile the link, the more likely it will get retweeted too, which brings in even more views.

      I prefer Facebook... There you can actually get to know people. I have 2700 friends there so obviously I don't "know" all of them, but I've gotten to know at least some people.
      I don't have a problem getting to know people on Twitter. Facebook just strikes me as a bloated mess. I find Twitter to be much easier for social networking.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        I don't like spammers sending junk to my eMailboxes either. I don't think anyone is "good enough" to send me spam. Does that make me an elitist?
        Okay, maybe I'm just dumb as a stump and don't get this Twitter thing at
        all. Granted, I don't really use it that much. But how is an auto DM spam?

        First of all, the only people who get my auto DM (if I even have one) are
        the ones who follow me. So I would think that they want to hear from me,
        otherwise, why follow me to begin with?

        Now, if you're saying that each DM should be personalized, such as, "Hi
        John, thanks for following me. Here's a link to my blog where you can
        read some great articles on...whatever" what happens if you're getting
        50 followers a day? You're literally spending your life sending these out.

        Okay, so then using the DM feature at all as a "thank you for following me"
        is a total waste, if we're going to go on this premise.

        So what's left for telling people that you have this great free report or
        blog or whatever? The only thing that's left is each individual tweet.

        The problem with THAT is that the only people who see it are the ones
        who are online at the time.

        So if we're going to allow initial contact with each person who follows us,
        I don't see the difference between an auto DM or a DM aside from the
        insertion of the person's name in the message.

        And again, if you're getting 50 followers a day, do you REALLY want to
        spend that much time telling these people about what you have to offer
        them?

        So somebody please tell me, what's the better way that insures that you
        reach all these people that doesn't make doing it a day long chore?
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          First of all, the only people who get my auto DM (if I even have one) are
          the ones who follow me. So I would think that they want to hear from me,
          otherwise, why follow me to begin with?
          But they are hearing from you when you tweet.

          Now, if you're saying that each DM should be personalized, such as, "Hi
          John, thanks for following me. Here's a link to my blog where you can
          read some great articles on...whatever" what happens if you're getting
          50 followers a day? You're literally spending your life sending these out.
          Don't send marketing DMs at all, unless they are in response to a question or problem that someone tweeted. And, in that case, it's better to tweet a reply to them so that others see it.

          Okay, so then using the DM feature at all as a "thank you for following me"
          is a total waste, if we're going to go on this premise.
          Yes.

          So what's left for telling people that you have this great free report or
          blog or whatever? The only thing that's left is each individual tweet.

          The problem with THAT is that the only people who see it are the ones
          who are online at the time.
          Tweet it periodically at different times of the day. But, make sure you have other non-marketing tweets in between. 1 marketing tweet for every 4 non-marketing tweets seems to be the typical minimum level.

          So somebody please tell me, what's the better way that insures that you
          reach all these people that doesn't make doing it a day long chore?
          If you want to automate it, you can use services which will send tweets at scheduled times. But, be sure to automate non-marketing tweets in the mix as well.

          Be sure to interact with people too. People want to see that you interact with other people and aren't just there promoting your own stuff. It is a social networking service, after all. People want to see the social part, and they are more likely to buy from someone who socializes than someone that just uses Twitter as an RSS feed for their blog or marketing messages. At least, that's been my experience...
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  • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
    Another reason why marketers are widely hated by everyone. Any system that is created for a genuine social interaction is invariably abused and filled with their crap tactics.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

      Another reason why marketers are widely hated by everyone. Any system that is created for a genuine social interaction is invariably abused and filled with their crap tactics.
      Exactly. Marketers fill up every available space with their loud, obnoxious spam. I don't even look in my mailbox on Twitter. It's futile. Anyone actually sending me a real one ... it doesn't get read either because I'm not going to take the time to try to weed through all the muck.
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    • Profile picture of the author DavidTheMavin
      Originally Posted by yourreviewer View Post

      Another reason why marketers are widely hated by everyone. Any system that is created for a genuine social interaction is invariably abused and filled with their crap tactics.
      Amen! However, I love that marketers do this because it's easy to set yourself apart.

      I personally love when I actually get a real DM from someone that took the 5 seconds to look at my profile and send me a meaningful, non-pitch message, and I've got to figure if I ever send anyone a DM they'll feel the same way.
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  • Profile picture of the author ken_p
    i do understand that its pretty annoying. and this is not the first time i've encountered someone complaining about auto DMs, so i am wondering, why more and more people are using it, and the result is more and more people are getting annoyed. Lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

    There's so much free information out there these days that giving away a free report is basically meaningless unless it's coming from someone like Marlon Sanders or Willie Crawford or John Reese or Big Mike or Mike Filsaime, who have already proven that they know what they're talking about.
    That your personal opinion and not based on fact. The make money online market is not limited to the Warrior Forum or to people who know who Willie, John, or Filsaime are.

    Free reports still work as well as they always have. It helps to be well known but the content of the free report is more important.

    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

    My advice - don't waste your time with auto DMs. If you want to communicate with anyone, take the time to send them a real live message addressed to them; it's a million times more powerful then an automated message.
    Agreed, good point.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheAngelGuy
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      That your personal opinion and not based on fact. The make money online market is not limited to the Warrior Forum or to people who know who Willie, John, or Filsaime are.
      No, it's not her personal opinion and and it's got nothing to do with facts or not. It's based on what the experience does for her, and obviously multiple others having the same thing happen.

      It's really easy to get cerebral with things that others experience as difficulties and not recognize that there IS actual difficulty going on, something that could be profited from if someone were to come up with a solution.

      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Free reports still work as well as they always have.
      Ron, try to see that she's not talking about the content itself, but more the methodolgy that didn't work. If I didn't know you, and you came up to me door and offered me a free report to come inside for a couple of minutes, I'd probably call the cops. If Donald Trump did it, I'd offer him dinner.

      Nothing personal towards you in that scenario, but don't forget that marketing is always about perception, and that there's more than just the product involved in a purchasing decision. People always have a tacit relationship with the creator, author, or company providing it, and if the marketer doesn't realize that and work that angle, too, a lot of people like Dana, myself, and others, aren't going to even WANT to listen, no matter how good the material is.

      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      It helps to be well known but the content of the free report is more important.
      Sure, content is important, but if someone can't get me to read it in the first place, then it's really their loss. "Content is king" only AFTER you've earned the right to give the person the content in the first place.

      It's almost the difference between Coke and generically-branded soda. Same "content", right? But lots of people don't buy it simply because that personal trust factor hasn't been established yet or if they don't know who or where it's coming from.

      Not wanting to argue about this or make anyone right or wrong, just to point out additional factors, and that the most successful marketers use every additional factor to their advantage. Unsuccessful ones have their content ending up in Dana's (and lots of others) recycle bin. I'd love for it to be as cut and dry as "he who has the best content wins" but reality doesn't always play by nice, clear rules of what we want.

      I think everyone, at one time, has created great content, and yet sold nothing. Then when they added the relationship factor, things started producing more positive results.

      The IM'ers who are going to take something away from this thread are the ones who care about the experience of the end user.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
        Originally Posted by TheAngelGuy View Post

        No, it's not her personal opinion and and it's got nothing to do with facts or not. It's based on what the experience does for her, and obviously multiple others having the same thing happen.
        Firstly, she can speak for herself and tell us what she means.

        Secondly, she said "giving away a free report is basically meaningless" unless you're a Guru. I can't point to countless factual examples where giving away a free report is very meaningful. I know non-gurus who have built entire businesses around giving away free reports.

        If she is saying that giving away a free report specifically with Twitter Auto DM's is meaningless, well that's something different that should be clarified.

        Originally Posted by TheAngelGuy View Post

        Sure, content is important, but if someone can't get me to read it in the first place, then it's really their loss. "Content is king" only AFTER you've earned the right to give the person the content in the first place.
        You're confusing "earning the right" with being well known or being a guru. You could be completely unknown, but if you offer a free report based on your success with a topic that I'm interested in, I will get it.

        If you need evidence of this, just look at the WSO forum. There are many lesser known Warriors making lots of sales everyday.

        The bottom line is you don't have to be well known to get people's attention with free reports. You just have to make the free report compelling, back it up with some proof, and target it to the right people.

        To Dana's point, maybe Twitter Auto DMs are not the right place to target your free report, but that doesn't mean that free reports are meaningless. Far from it.

        I can go on Digital Point right now (where nobody knows me) and offer a free report showing how a non-guru has made well over a million dollars online sitting in front of a computer in his pajamas. I guarantee you that free report won't be ignored.

        Content is still king no matter whether you're Jay Abraham or Joe Schmoe.
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        • Profile picture of the author TheAngelGuy
          Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

          I can go on Digital Point right now (where nobody knows me) and offer a free report showing how a non-guru has made well over a million dollars online sitting in front of a computer in his pajamas. I guarantee you that free report won't be ignored.
          Ron, you're right, and no, the report won't be ignored. On Digital Point.

          But if you want Dana to read it, you better do it a way other than she (and others) are getting frustrated with.

          We're not talking about content here. Great content is only the start. Deliverability is a key concept, too, and Dana is simply letting us know that this is one delivery method that can be tweaked up for better results.
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  • Profile picture of the author mathiaslebesby
    I created a Twitter account about a month ago, and startet following 1000 people the first day. I now have a little more then 1000 followers, but I don't really see the benefit.
    Sometimes I post a link there and maybe I get three of four clicks but that's about it.

    I prefer Facebook... There you can actually get to know people. I have 2700 friends there so obviously I don't "know" all of them, but I've gotten to know at least some people.
    Signature

    Hi. :)

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    • Profile picture of the author ken_p
      Originally Posted by mathiaslebesby View Post

      I created a Twitter account about a month ago, and startet following 1000 people the first day. I now have a little more then 1000 followers, but I don't really see the benefit.
      Sometimes I post a link there and maybe I get three of four clicks but that's about it.

      I prefer Facebook... There you can actually get to know people. I have 2700 friends there so obviously I don't "know" all of them, but I've gotten to know at least some people.
      I prefer facebook too. Now, i think twitter has become a marketing tool, instead of a social network, that i thought of first.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    To clarify: I'm not actually thrilled to get an auto-DM from ANYONE, famous or not. The issue of giving away free reports and the issue of sending auto-DMs are sort of two separate topics, I guess, except for this -

    On Twitter, it's common to receive DOZENS of auto-DMs offering to give away a free report. If you go to someone's website and they offer to give away a free report...that's a lot more powerful.

    If you look at 30, 40, 50 Dms and each one wants you to download a free report...that's just a massive time-suck.

    So in my opinion, offering a free report to people via DM on Twitter is not an effective way to build a list - and has the potential to annoy the recipients of the DM.

    I am ALL for marketing, I am only on Twitter to make money - but I am in favor of effective marketing that gets the highest return on my time investment, and I don't find that auto-DMs offer value for either the sender or the recipient.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

      To clarify: I'm not actually thrilled to get an auto-DM from ANYONE, famous or not. The issue of giving away free reports and the issue of sending auto-DMs are sort of two separate topics, I guess, except for this -

      On Twitter, it's common to receive DOZENS of auto-DMs offering to give away a free report. If you go to someone's website and they offer to give away a free report...that's a lot more powerful.

      If you look at 30, 40, 50 Dms and each one wants you to download a free report...that's just a massive time-suck.

      So in my opinion, offering a free report to people via DM on Twitter is not an effective way to build a list - and has the potential to annoy the recipients of the DM.

      I am ALL for marketing, I am only on Twitter to make money - but I am in favor of effective marketing that gets the highest return on my time investment, and I don't find that auto-DMs offer value for either the sender or the recipient.
      So, if I'm understanding you correctly (and please correct me if I'm
      wrong) even people like Willie Crawford and Marlon Sanders shouldn't use
      the auto DM feature?

      If not, then what do you suggest they do, just Tweet their free report
      offering? If they do that, the only ones who will get that tweet are the
      ones who are on at the time.

      If they use manual DM, can you imagine how time consuming that would
      be for somebody who gets 50 new followers a day?

      The irony of this whole thread is that, in an IM world where we constantly
      preach "automate" as much as you can, you're saying that in THIS case,
      this is a bad thing.

      And ultimately, isn't whether it's good or bad come down to testing?

      If John Doe has an auto DM going out about a free report to his followers
      and he tracks the link (using a unique one for Twitter) and finds he is
      getting a 20% opt in to total followers, isn't it worth his time (actually it
      takes none of his time) to do this?

      Again, personal preferences aside, it all comes down to if it works for you
      or not. If so, use it. If not, don't use it.

      Because there is always going to be somebody who says "This is annoying
      to me so you shouldn't do it"

      Which is not what you should base your business decisions on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jagged
    [Originally Posted by Dana_W:
    Let me tell you - offering me your free report does NOT make me like you more. There's so much free information out there these days that giving away a free report is basically meaningless unless it's coming from someone like Marlon Sanders or Willie Crawford or John Reese or Big Mike or Mike Filsaime, who have already proven that they know what they're talking about.]

    I think after you re-read your words here, you will probably want to re-phrase this. I can see where your coming from...but...
    I can see a lot of newer members who are working hard and are proud to get their first product out & want to share that with others who have helped them along the way....sinking back in their chairs thinking..."if thats the way people are viewing things...whats the use?"

    I'm a longtime admirer of your work and your contributions to the WF Dana, but this comment, IMO will haunt you someday...

    [My advice - don't waste your time with auto DMs. If you want to communicate with anyone, take the time to send them a real live message addressed to them; it's a million times more powerful then an automated message. ]

    Now this I agree 100% with you. What a major pain to sift through the DM's....has to be a better way!

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyrus Antas
    Unlike traditional email, twitter spam is not an inevitable tragedy. You're only getting it because you're "spam following" people! Don't do that and your message box will be crystal clear, zero spam.

    Now I do the same thing, but I don't bitch about it. It's just the inevitable result of the strategies we use. You can't spam and not expect to be spammed.

    Tyrus
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Tyrus Antas View Post

      Unlike traditional email, twitter spam is not an inevitable tragedy. You're only getting it because you're "spam following" people! Don't do that and your message box will be crystal clear, zero spam.
      Not true at all. If someone follows me, I follow them back. I don't consider that to be spam following. And my message box is not crystal clear...
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  • Profile picture of the author bei3371
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author iantrader
      Er, what's Twitter...? :p

      Ian
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewd
    I agree with you about the Auto DMs being annoying... but
    completely disagree that the only free reports worth reading
    are from the list of people you just named.

    Honestly, there is a name or 2 there that I would avoid
    free reports from.

    But, there are tons of free reports that are not meaningless
    that come from people that haven't proven themselves to
    be anything at all yet... maybe that free report is the proof?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      "Lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas".

      What do you expect when you randomly follow tons of people you have no clue about?

      That's part of the side effects of the mass follow strategy. It ruins the Twitter experience. But hey, it sure does make everyone look really popular though!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    All right, to clarify again - when someone sends a link to a free report in an automatic direct message on Twitter - it is likely to be one of a dozen or more similar direct messages with links to free reports that the recipients get EVERY DAY. This makes it much harder for that report to stand out as anything special. Nobody has time to read that many free reports every day. I simply do not see Twitter DMs as the ideal way to promote a free report.

    In my opinion, it's much more effective to use Twitter to convince people to go to your website...where you're offering some excellent free information in a short post, or lots of short posts, that are right there on the home page...along with an opt-in form, where people can get your free report.

    And if you want to know how to use Twitter to steer people towards your site...my best method is to write a good post like "Here's Why Your Press Release Was Rejected", and link to it from Twitter.

    JASON MOFFATT:

    "Lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas".

    What do you expect when you randomly follow tons of people you have no clue about?

    That's part of the side effects of the mass follow strategy. It ruins the Twitter experience. But hey, it sure does make everyone look really popular though!"

    Jason, Jason, Jason...we're like matter and anti-matter when it comes to our views on Twitter, aren't we?

    Yeah, yeah, I'm a Twitter ho, who promiscuously follows back one and all. What can I tell you - it works for me. It pays my bills and keeps my daughter in Hollister shirts.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Not meaning to be harsh, Dana, but I think this is hysterical.

      Are you using some automated tool to "follow" all those people whose tweets you're probably not going to read on any kind of regular basis? Do you use any tool(s) to unfollow the folks who don't follow you back?

      Yes, I do see and understand the difference. But it's just really funny to hear someone complain about the results of automation in social networking if they use it themselves.

      If you contact someone directly, don't you think you invite a reply?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Lee
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Not meaning to be harsh, Dana, but I think this is hysterical.

        Are you using some automated tool to "follow" all those people whose tweets you're probably not going to read on any kind of regular basis? Do you use any tool(s) to unfollow the folks who don't follow you back?

        Yes, I do see and understand the difference. But it's just really funny to hear someone complain about the results of automation in social networking if they use it themselves.

        If you contact someone directly, don't you think you invite a reply?


        Paul

        Hi Paul,

        I think what Dana is referring to is that she doesn't like DM's that are not really personal, but just tactics to promote their products or site.

        A welcome DM really should be a welcome message, building a relationship first and slowly before doing any type of marketing.

        Thanks,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Michael,

          I understand that. My point is that she seems to be using automation to initiate contact, and objecting to an automated follow-up.

          Seems... odd.


          Paul
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          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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          • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Michael,

            I understand that. My point is that she seems to be using automation to initiate contact, and objecting to an automated follow-up.

            Seems... odd.


            Paul
            I auto FOLLOW people to save time, yes. But I don't fill up their mail boxes with auto messages. I answer people's questions to me on Twitter, I DM people directly if I have something to say to them or to ask them, I go on there and interact. I don't actually see the similarity between automatically following people who I think might use my services - and between sending out automatic messages.

            If I weren't automatically following - I'd either be manually following people, or paying a VA to do it for me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Dana,
              I auto FOLLOW people to save time, yes. But I don't fill up their mail boxes with auto messages.
              You'd automatically generate an email to me about the follow. Is doing that in bulk something you feel is appropriate?

              To repeat my question, slightly differently, why is automated contact okay for you, but not as a means of reply? Because of who is inconvenienced?

              Cost of your business model ma'am. You play, you pay.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Asher
                Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                Time for a little bit of a obvious wake up call.

                If you follow someone, you deserve whatever they send.
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Cost of your business model ma'am. You play, you pay.
                Hi Dana,

                I think it's time to bite the bullet and admit that this isn't
                really proof that auto-DMs are harmful. Since you got in
                to it, you gotta take it.

                The only thing you can do is deal with it.

                I agree 100% with Jason and Paul.

                But let's get this over and all go back on our merry,
                Twittle ways.

                My $0.02 worth of Tweet-feed-thought

                Asher
                Signature
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                • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
                  Originally Posted by Asher View Post

                  Hi Dana,

                  I think it's time to bite the bullet and admit that this isn't
                  really proof that auto-DMs are harmful. Since you got in
                  to it, you gotta take it.

                  The only thing you can do is deal with it.

                  I agree 100% with Jason and Paul.

                  But let's get this over and all go back on our merry,
                  Twittle ways.

                  My $0.02 worth of Tweet-feed-thought

                  Asher
                  Err....I can't admit something that I don't agree with, though.

                  As for auto-following - up until the time that I started using auto following software, I followed people like this: I went into the Twitter accounts of people who are leaders in my field - and I followed a bunch of their followers. That is what a lot of people on Twitter do, and I suspect that it's what my good buddy Dan Rinnert does.

                  Now, instead of manually doing this, I have a machine do it.

                  I don't see this as taking away from the social networking aspect of what I do, and I don't see it as being similar to auto-DMs.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Dana,
                    Now, instead of manually doing this, I have a machine do it.

                    I don't see this as taking away from the social networking aspect of what I do, and I don't see it as being similar to auto-DMs.
                    "I used to go and look at web sites to see if the owners were good prospects for my products. If they were, I'd email them a hand-typed note. Now I have software that scrapes email addresses off of sites and sends them out by the hundreds of thousands. I don't see how those are different."

                    Scaling, ma'am. Scaling.


                    Paul
                    Signature
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                • Profile picture of the author DavidTheMavin
                  Originally Posted by Asher View Post

                  Hi Dana,

                  I think it's time to bite the bullet and admit that this isn't
                  really proof that auto-DMs are harmful. Since you got in
                  to it, you gotta take it.

                  The only thing you can do is deal with it.

                  I agree 100% with Jason and Paul.

                  But let's get this over and all go back on our merry,
                  Twittle ways.

                  My $0.02 worth of Tweet-feed-thought

                  Asher
                  I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but anyone who needs to send out auto dm's as part of their business model isn't doing something right. It's not like they're cross or up sells!

                  Edit: I will admit that the whole IM niche is a different thing though, and 90% of the time it's not really run like a regular business so maybe I'm wrong and different rules apply?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Asher
                    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

                    Err....I can't admit something that I don't agree with, though.
                    Understood No problems with that, just standing on
                    different grounds.

                    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

                    As for auto-following - up until the time that I started using auto following software, I followed people like this: I went into the Twitter accounts of people who are leaders in my field - and I followed a bunch of their followers. That is what a lot of people on Twitter do, and I suspect that it's what my good buddy Dan Rinnert does.

                    Now, instead of manually doing this, I have a machine do it.

                    I don't see this as taking away from the social networking aspect of what I do, and I don't see it as being similar to auto-DMs.
                    No, it's not similar to auto-DMs but there is still the
                    "auto" in it and it just makes life easier for all of us.

                    Originally Posted by DavidTheMavin View Post

                    I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but anyone who needs to send out auto dm's as part of their business model isn't doing something right. It's not like they're cross or up sells!
                    How can you be sure about that? I've personally
                    never tested it because I don't agree with it but
                    if anyone has used it before, they could be telling
                    a whole different story, no?

                    To me, I view Twitter as a tool. As with all tools,
                    it's never perfect -- because people aren't. So I
                    deal with them and for most of the time, I say
                    "Ah, to heck with it" and move on.

                    Auto-DMs work pretty well for me, I'll admit. But
                    here's how I use it:

                    "Thanks for following! Heh. Could u tell me a little
                    bit more abt what u do -- using @asheraw? My
                    DM inbox is kinda overflowing! =D"

                    I get lots of responses because I'm directing the
                    DM at them... not at me.

                    I change it every once in a while and this one...
                    I've pretty much left untouched for a really long
                    time because it's "me".

                    Asher
                    Signature
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                    • Profile picture of the author DavidTheMavin
                      Originally Posted by Asher View Post

                      Understood No problems with that, just standing on
                      different grounds.



                      No, it's not similar to auto-DMs but there is still the
                      "auto" in it and it just makes life easier for all of us.



                      How can you be sure about that? I've personally
                      never tested it because I don't agree with it but
                      if anyone has used it before, they could be telling
                      a whole different story, no?

                      To me, I view Twitter as a tool. As with all tools,
                      it's never perfect -- because people aren't. So I
                      deal with them and for most of the time, I say
                      "Ah, to heck with it" and move on.

                      Auto-DMs work pretty well for me, I'll admit. But
                      here's how I use it:

                      "Thanks for following! Heh. Could u tell me a little
                      bit more abt what u do -- using @asheraw? My
                      DM inbox is kinda overflowing! =D"

                      I get lots of responses because I'm directing the
                      DM at them... not at me.

                      I change it every once in a while and this one...
                      I've pretty much left untouched for a really long
                      time because it's "me".

                      Asher
                      Interesting, but you're not the norm. Literally 99% all of 417 DMs I have right now either just say hi, or are all sending me to their product or service website, or pitching me some affiliate junk. That's considered direct, untargeted, outbound marketing.

                      What you're doing is more of a social media optimization tactic and imho would be much more effective & is much less obtrusive/agrivating.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Asher
                        Originally Posted by DavidTheMavin View Post

                        Interesting, but you're not the norm. Literally 99% all of 417 DMs I have right now either just say hi, or are all sending me to their product or service website, or pitching me some affiliate junk. That's considered direct, untargeted, outbound marketing.

                        What you're doing is more of a social media optimization tactic and imho would be much more effective & is much less obtrusive/agrivating.
                        Why, thank you I do try not to be normal

                        Asher
                        Signature
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                        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                          Banned
                          Leave Dana alone you big meanies.


                          Please do not reply to this post as it was automatically posted by a robot names Phil.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            a robot names Phil.
                            That's a lame name for a robot, Chrome Dome. (Get it? "Chrome dome?" Robot? Never mind...) That's almost as bad as Gort.

                            "Behold, this is my robot, with which I am well pleased. And I shall call him... Ruebert!"


                            Paul
                            Signature
                            .
                            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              That's a lame name for a robot, Chrome Dome. (Get it? "Chrome dome?" Robot? Never mind...) That's almost as bad as Gort.

                              "Behold, this is my robot, with which I am well pleased. And I shall call him... Ruebert!"


                              Paul
                              Yeah, it is a lame name but what can a guy do? I am just outsourcing the robot.
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                          • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
                            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                            Leave Dana alone you big meanies.


                            Please do not reply to this post as it was automatically posted by a robot names Phil.
                            Thank you for your reply! Get your free report "How to Make Awesome Posts on the Warrior Forum" at...
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                            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                              Banned
                              Originally Posted by R Hagel View Post

                              Thank you for your reply! Get your free report "How to Make Awesome Posts on the Warrior Forum" at...
                              Touche! I am saving up for one of those robots that auto replies to my automated posting robot.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

                    As for auto-following - up until the time that I started using auto following software, I followed people like this: I went into the Twitter accounts of people who are leaders in my field - and I followed a bunch of their followers. That is what a lot of people on Twitter do, and I suspect that it's what my good buddy Dan Rinnert does.
                    I use a variety of methods that I don't disclose. Saving them for a future eBook I'll probably never write.
                    Signature

                    Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

                    Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                And what if you have a DM that wanted to hire you for $5000?

                You'd miss out by not paying attention.
                I'd say they're undervaluing my time, so I'm really not missing out.

                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Dan,Okay. That's much more in the line of my understanding of networking. That leaves one question: If you initiate contact, is the person entitled to reply?
                How are we defining contact and reply? Some people reply to me before I'm even following them. Contact and reply is not an issue. The automated "check this out" DMs are.

                I don't think the "thank you" auto-DMs are necessary either. If you want to thank someone for following you, offer them tweets of continuing value to them.

                If someone follows you because they are interested in you or what you offer, they've probably already checked out your website. So, no need in that case for an auto-DM directing me to your site.

                Sometimes I'll follow people based on anticipated needs. I know (or hope!) I'll need certain things in the future, so if I see someone that offers that service or product, I'll follow them. Then, when it comes to make a purchase, I'll have a better idea of who I'd prefer to work with or purchase from. But, if the first contact is a marketing message, then (a) that does not leave a good impression and (b) I'm not ready to make a purchase right now, so it's moot anyway.

                If someone follows you because they want to build their following count, they're probably not interested in your "free report" or your blog or whatever, so it's kind of pointless to send them an auto-DM that they'll ignore anyway.

                In any case, I think there should be some relationship first before you try to sell anyone something, even a free report. An hour or so ago, I received a DM from a new follower. It was clear he had taken the time to check out my Twitter profile. I also received an auto-DM from someone wanting me to check out their site. Whose site do you think I visited?

                If you guessed the follower with the personal DM, you guessed correctly. And, he didn't even include a link in his DM.

                I considered using an auto-DM when I first got on Twitter. I waited to see the environment, to get a feel for that idea. Took me two days, I think, to decide it would be a very bad idea. Message stream pollution is rarely a good thing.
                No, it's not. And thank you for not auto-DM'ing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

        Marketers extolling the benefits of following 1000s of
        people they know nothing about and have no interest
        in have created their own Frankenstein monster it seems -
        a time-sucking beast that takes at least as much as it
        gives... and with the profusion of would-be net-preneurs
        jumping on the Twitter bandwagon, hoping to automate
        "relationship marketing" with what is basically a spamming
        method - well... we reap what we sow.

        Twitter-boosters have created this situation with their
        following habits.
        To my knowledge, Dana has always recommended targeted following; that is, following people likely to be interested in what you have to offer.

        As for me, I don't see it as a time-sucking beast. Most DMs just don't get read. And that's the real downer. The scourge of auto-DMs has really devalued the DM system.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Not meaning to be harsh, Dana, but I think this is hysterical.

        Are you using some automated tool to "follow" all those people whose tweets you're probably not going to read on any kind of regular basis? Do you use any tool(s) to unfollow the folks who don't follow you back?
        I don't know how Dana does it, but I don't use any automated tools at all. All my tweets, follows, unfollows, DMs and so forth are done manually. And, yes, auto-DMs are annoying. They are of little or no value and they either waste time or cause me to miss real DMs.

        Plus, I think some marketers have forgotten about the phishing expeditions that have occasionally taken place on Twitter. The phishing expedition of this past January involved sending out DMs with links that presented a fake Twitter login page. Websites can also be used to infect users with viruses, malware, spyware, JavaScript exploits and so on. As a result, there are people that won't click on a link, especially if they don't know you.

        Thus, the importance of building a relationship first, and not auto-DM'ing people with marketing messages when they first follow you. A follow does not a relationship make. It gets it started; you still have to build that relationship.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chuck Staff
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Not meaning to be harsh, Dana, but I think this is hysterical.

        Are you using some automated tool to "follow" all those people whose tweets you're probably not going to read on any kind of regular basis? Do you use any tool(s) to unfollow the folks who don't follow you back?

        Yes, I do see and understand the difference. But it's just really funny to hear someone complain about the results of automation in social networking if they use it themselves.

        If you contact someone directly, don't you think you invite a reply?

        Paul
        Couldn't have said it better myself, Paul... Sounds a wee bit like "do as I say, not as I do".
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    And by the way - I'm not saying that newer people in the IM world have nothing valuable to say or that their free reports aren't worthwhile. I am saying:

    1.) In general, if I have limited free time and there are dozens of free reports available and one of them is by someone who I respect, am familiar with, and know to be successful - and the other dozens of reports are from people I have never heard of - I will probably tend to go with the people that I know. Exception to the rule - if I see people giving great advice here on the WF or anywhere else, I'll seek out what else they have to say. David Preston, Maria Gudelis...I've discovered lots of great new mentors here.

    This is not me being snobby - this is me being deluged with information and having limited free time to devote to reading new things.

    2.) ANY free information that is offered in a DM on Twitter is buried among 30, 40, 50 other DMs - and it's harder for that info to stand out at all, no matter who sent it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Asher
    It's really slow and tedious to erase DMs on Twitter so I don't usually bother. So now I have almost 5000 DMs in my mailbox, and furthermore....buried among those dozens of DMs that I get every day...are usually several DMs from people inquiring about my press release services or just wanting to ask me a question. So I HAVE to scan all of those dozens of spam DMs to make sure I'm not missing any.
    I don't know if you guys know this (from the looks of it, you don't)
    but TweetLater lets you PURGE ALL your Direct Messages.

    I understand your problem, Dana. I also know that there are some
    messages that you wish to keep but once you flush the whole DMs
    down the Twit-gutter, it's MUCH easier for you to delete and remove
    and new DMs.

    I love that feature.

    I'm sure you will too!

    Asher
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
      Marketers extolling the benefits of following 1000s of
      people they know nothing about and have no interest
      in have created their own Frankenstein monster it seems -
      a time-sucking beast that takes at least as much as it
      gives... and with the profusion of would-be net-preneurs
      jumping on the Twitter bandwagon, hoping to automate
      "relationship marketing" with what is basically a spamming
      method - well... we reap what we sow.

      Twitter-boosters have created this situation with their
      following habits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      I see both side but I see where Dana is coming from. Personally, I shut off my auto-DM long ago. I don't auto-follow. I still check everyone's who follows me first and yes it's getting a lot harder to do and it's not efficient at all. I'll probably have to change that soon or only follow peeps whose names I recognize.

      With regards to auto-DM's it has ruined the DM experience with Twitter for me. If I don't know you I won't read it. Even if I get an instant DM asking "how am I doing" I figure it's a BS auto DM anyway since I don't fancy having a conversation with a tweet later pre-scheduled message I don't reply. Luckly Tweet Deck makes it a little easier to glance them all to see if any DM's in there are real.

      Someday they'll probably introduce a captcha form before you can send a DM so this will all be a moot point anyway.
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Lee
    Here's a step-by-step process to stop new followers from auto-DM'ing you:

    1) Follow @OptMeOut
    2) Wait for it to follow you back.
    3) Send @OptMeOut a DM (any message will do, even unrelated)
    4) Unfollow @OptMeOut

    Hope it helps.

    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Dmitry
    What inspires me in your post is that you "follow" on pretty much auto-pilot 100's of people every day, yet you DON'T want their auto-DM's. Irony?

    EDIT: Just saw Mr. Myers reply above (who once even accused me of spam haha) and I completely agree with him!
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post

      What inspires me in your post is that you "follow" on pretty much auto-pilot 100's of people every day, yet you DON'T want their auto-DM's. Irony?

      EDIT: Just saw Mr. Myers reply above (who once even accused me of spam haha) and I completely agree with him!
      I want to hear from people directly either in the Tweetstream or via DM, talk to them, answer their questions about press releases or publicity if they have any, ask questions of them...but I don't send out auto DMs and I don't see any value in receiving them.

      I'm on Twitter to network and interact, the same as most other people on Twitter. Some people network to meet other people and socialize, some people do it to promote themselves and their businesses. It's a social NETWORKING site. Auto-DMs don't encourage much personal interaction.
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  • Profile picture of the author melanied
    I don't really even read my Twitter inboxes. There are thousands of DMs in there!
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by melanied View Post

      I don't really even read my Twitter inboxes. There are thousands of DMs in there!
      Further reinforces my assertion that marketers don't really pay attention on Twitter.
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      • Profile picture of the author melanied
        I pay attention, just not to my DM inbox. I pay attention to the tweet stream.
        Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by melanied View Post

          I pay attention, just not to my DM inbox. I pay attention to the tweet stream.
          And what if you have a DM that wanted to hire you for $5000?

          You'd miss out by not paying attention.

          And following 5000 people, I tend to argue that you don't pay attention unless you are super human.

          If that's the case, please teach me how to pay attention to 5000 people simultaneously. I'd LOVE to know how to do that.
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          • Profile picture of the author melanied
            Well, I don't really use that Twitter account to market products or get jobs - I use it for fun and to meet people and get to know people. And also to interact with friends from college, and various other parts of my life.

            So, I don't pay attention to every tweet by every person I'm following - that's true. But I do jump on when I feel like talking and participate in conversations - and I've made some good friends that way, actually. I think of it like a forum - I don't participate in EVERY thread, but I do respond to what interests me. That's just how I like to use Twitter.

            If I missed a DM by someone wanting to hire me...bummer. :/ But advertising my services isn't the point of the account, so chances are, I haven't. LOL.

            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

            And what if you have a DM that wanted to hire you for $5000?

            You'd miss out by not paying attention.

            And following 5000 people, I tend to argue that you don't pay attention unless you are super human.

            If that's the case, please teach me how to pay attention to 5000 people simultaneously. I'd LOVE to know how to do that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Know what would be cool? If you could auto-block anyone who tried to auto-follow you.

              I'd pay for a tool that did that.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Rachel Goodchild
                I completely agree with you Dana. DM's are for that bridge between twitter relationship building and email. and I tihnk some people use it very effectively. But I never want a free report DMed to me. it's a time for direct, personal contact. and that is IT.

                I'm loving twitter. but it's first and foremost a relationship building place. not a wham bam, here's the deal mam kind of place.
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              • Profile picture of the author Chris Wilkinson
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Know what would be cool? If you could auto-block anyone who tried to auto-follow you.

                I'd pay for a tool that did that.


                Paul
                Me too!

                What many people seem to miss is that Twitter is a Social Networking site. It's all about building relationships with an online community that you have generated/invited into your life.

                I feel that it's not about automatically building a list of 1000's of followers and then bombarding them automatically with offer after offer. Talk and interact with your followers. Write entertaining tweets and link to relevant websites and market from there.

                The key to twitter is to use it for the purpose it was created - social networking - and not just to bombard everyone with your latest must have offer. Give people something genuine and personal, stop automating everything.

                We'll end up with bots pitching sales to bots pitching sales, to bots pitching sales to more bots pitching more sales and on and on...

                This will kill Twitter and I fear we may be on that road already.

                Just my 2c's
                Chris W
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                • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
                  Originally Posted by Chris Wilkinson View Post

                  Me too!

                  What many people seem to miss is that Twitter is a Social Networking site. It's all about building relationships with an online community that you have generated/invited into your life.

                  I feel that it's not about automatically building a list of 1000's of followers and then bombarding them automatically with offer after offer. Talk and interact with your followers. Write entertaining tweets and link to relevant websites and market from there.

                  The key to twitter is to use it for the purpose it was created - social networking - and not just to bombard everyone with your latest must have offer. Give people something genuine and personal, stop automating everything.

                  We'll end up with bots pitching sales to bots pitching sales, to bots pitching sales to more bots pitching more sales and on and on...

                  This will kill Twitter and I fear we may be on that road already.

                  Just my 2c's
                  Chris W
                  The beauty of Twitter is - it is VERY easy to unfollow people, and it's very easy to report bots. I don't think that it will kill Twitter.

                  As for building up lots of followers - not everyone who does that bombards people with pitches. I don't. I market by giving away free, valuable information. And by that I do NOT mean that I tweet out link after link to my website. I interact. It's very possible to build up a lot of followers AND interact with people.
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                  • Profile picture of the author melanied
                    So, this thread actually inspired me to go through my DMs last night (while I was also watching Grey's Anatomy ). And while there were no offers of five grand, it was kind of an ego boost. MAN, there are a LOT of people who are looking forward to tweeting with me!
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              • Profile picture of the author Fabian Tan
                Auto-DMs are fine. I, and I think many others, don't mind them.

                Less salesy DMs probably work best. People know it's automated, then again if you don't make it too obvious, some will appreciate the DMs if you make it conversational, helpful and not salesy.

                Then again, I do typically ignore most DM's these days just like I ignore most email.

                Most advertisements are ignored too, but all you need is that small pocket of interested prospects and customers. That's what it's all about.

                Fabian
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              • Profile picture of the author Bennette
                Hi Dana,

                I just purchased Twitter Goldrush ID#10T85909H91788921 but it didn't give me a link.

                Bennette
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                • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
                  Originally Posted by Bennette View Post

                  Hi Dana,

                  I just purchased Twitter Goldrush ID#10T85909H91788921 but it didn't give me a link.

                  Bennette
                  I have been having TERRIBLE problems with 1shoppingcart lately - I will have to email it to you directly. Sorry!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bennette
                    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

                    I have been having TERRIBLE problems with 1shoppingcart lately - I will have to email it to you directly. Sorry!
                    No problem, things happen.

                    I wanted to say thanks, I got it and read it. I liked that it was simple, easy but informative reading. Just what I needed to get started. I'll follow your tweets when I get everything set up.

                    Thanks again,
                    Bennette
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              • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Know what would be cool? If you could auto-block anyone who tried to auto-follow you.

                I'd pay for a tool that did that.


                Paul
                You don't really need to block them. They'll follow you for a few days and when you don't follow back, they'll drop you like a hot potato. They weed themselves out. :-)

                But it would be an interesting tool.

                Alice
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Alice,
                  You don't really need to block them. They'll follow you for a few days and when you don't follow back, they'll drop you like a hot potato. They weed themselves out. :-)
                  Good point. Very good point.

                  The only real advantage to it would be to prevent the emailed notifications, and there aren't enough of those to mess with my mailstream at the moment. Seems like 4 or 5 a day, and filters drop those in a folder with the rest.
                  But it would be an interesting tool.
                  Yeah. The problem with the idea is that there's no fingerprint that the end user can see to make that distinction. It would have to be part of Twitter's system.


                  Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dan,
      I don't know how Dana does it, but I don't use any automated tools at all.
      Okay. That's much more in the line of my understanding of networking. That leaves one question: If you initiate contact, is the person entitled to reply?

      I considered using an auto-DM when I first got on Twitter. I waited to see the environment, to get a feel for that idea. Took me two days, I think, to decide it would be a very bad idea. Message stream pollution is rarely a good thing.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Dana,
        It's a social NETWORKING site.
        I think you may have emphasized the wrong word there.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
        Time for a little bit of a obvious wake up call.

        If you follow someone, you deserve whatever they send.

        And that means whatever they send. You really have no room to gripe as you are the one that followed them in the first place.

        It's a very simple system, and I'm a bit puzzled how someone could be peeved by something that resulted from their own actions.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
          Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

          Time for a little bit of a obvious wake up call.

          If you follow someone, you deserve whatever they send.

          And that means whatever they send. You really have no room to gripe as you are the one that followed them in the first place.

          It's a very simple system, and I'm a bit puzzled how someone could be peeved by something that resulted from their own actions.
          The issue is not so much what I deserve - it's what is the most effective way to market. I don't find auto-DMs to be effective.

          As for your following philosophy - if I followed YOUR following philosophy, I'd be broke. What works for you would not work for me, and frankly, would not work for most people on Twitter if they want to have a decent sized audience to interact with. If I hardly followed back anyone - pretty quickly, most people would unfollow ME, and rightly so - and nobody would see what I tweeted, and I would have way less customers.

          The more people that I follow, the more people that follow me back...and the more people that follow me back, the more orders that I get for my press release writing services, as long as I go on Twitter daily and interact with people and hand out good PR advice.

          The first few months that I was on Twitter, I got enough business to support myself - to pay my mortgage and bills and keep the lights on and food on the table. Now that I've built up a lot of followers - I have enough business that I'm outsourcing some of my writing and getting ready to move to an office outside of my house. I see a direct correlation between my number of followers and the health of my finances.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Dana,
            I don't find auto-DMs to be effective.
            And if other people do, wouldn't your own logic for using your system apply equally well to theirs? "It makes me money."

            You didn't title this thread, "Auto-DMs are ineffective," after all. You said they're pure evil.

            I don't really care if someone auto-follows me, personally. If I don't follow them back (99% of the time I won't), they'll either unfollow me or they want to hear what I have to say. I'm good with either result.

            This crap about how it's rude not to follow someone back is just that - crap. An action taken by someone else that I didn't initiate does not create any sort of obligation on my part. That sort of bogus insistence is why I'd like to see auto-follow destroyed as much as auto-DM.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Dan,
              How are we defining contact and reply?
              In this context, follow is contact, and follow-back/auto-DM.

              In case it wasn't obvious, I agree with what you're saying here.


              Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Asher
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              That sort of bogus insistence is why I'd like to see auto-follow destroyed as much as auto-DM.
              Let's nuke Twitter then! :p

              I don't really get the auto-follow feature because I haven't
              got anything that makes sense... I do all 7k following manually
              (back when Dana's was still Twitter 1.0 heh)

              Asher
              Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
            Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

            The first few months that I was on Twitter, I got enough business to support myself - to pay my mortgage and bills and keep the lights on and food on the table. Now that I've built up a lot of followers - I have enough business that I'm outsourcing some of my writing and getting ready to move to an office outside of my house. I see a direct correlation between my number of followers and the health of my finances.
            That is AWESOME and congratulations. :-)

            I know you're saying it has to do with the number of followers, but do you think it might have more to do with the fact that you have the RIGHT followers? My guess is you don't need 16K followers to connect with the right people, generate word-of-mouth, repeat business, etc.

            I guess to me, there comes a point where the time suck isn't worth it (I know you automate follows, etc...but your participation time needs to be included) and there are likely more effective ways to leverage a smaller number of contacts, especially with a service business.

            Just thinking aloud.

            I see people talk about Twitter spam and complain about DMs all the time and it always surpises me. My Twitter experience is completely different because of the way I use it. My way isn't the right way, but it's much more peaceful for me. :-)

            Alice
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            • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
              Originally Posted by Alice Seba View Post

              That is AWESOME and congratulations. :-)

              I know you're saying it has to do with the number of followers, but do you think it might have more to do with the fact that you have the RIGHT followers? My guess is you don't need 16K followers to connect with the right people, generate word-of-mouth, repeat business, etc.

              I guess to me, there comes a point where the time suck isn't worth it (I know you automate follows, etc...but your participation time needs to be included) and there are likely more effective ways to leverage a smaller number of contacts, especially with a service business.

              Just thinking aloud.

              I see people talk about Twitter spam and complain about DMs all the time and it always surpises me. My Twitter experience is completely different because of the way I use it. My way isn't the right way, but it's much more peaceful for me. :-)

              Alice
              If it works for you and you enjoy your Twitter experience, it's the right way!

              I don't spend more time now on Twitter than I did in the beginning - about 15 minutes a day, 3 times a day. I just get better response now that I have a larger following.
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        • Profile picture of the author russellprisco
          So, umm....is this the wrong thread to ask where to find a good automatic DMer......

          Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

          Time for a little bit of a obvious wake up call.

          If you follow someone, you deserve whatever they send.

          And that means whatever they send. You really have no room to gripe as you are the one that followed them in the first place.

          It's a very simple system, and I'm a bit puzzled how someone could be peeved by something that resulted from their own actions.
          Hahaha... Funny. True... but still funny...

          Hey, if you've got 5000 DM's now why not just go through them all, make sure you've seen all the important ones, take notes or whatever, and then purge them all out with tweetlater?

          Then do like Michael Lee said and just stop future auto DM's... Seems like a pretty simple solution that would work well for you.

          And if it's really bugging you, yank out a c-note that you made using twitter to wipe your eyes with... that should do the trick =P

          ~Russell Prisco =)
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  • Profile picture of the author Gunter Eibl
    These auto DMs are really a pain. I read about a software somewhere that can identify those and delete them automatically but I forgot what it was.

    I'm using tweetdeck which can at least separate replies from direct messages.

    Gunter

    PS: follow me on twitter! lol GunterEibl (GunterEibl) on Twitter
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
    I like Dana, but this one has me scratching my head some..
    I have to think that following hundreds of people a day and complaining about the all the DM's is kinda like opting in to hundreds of lists a day and complaining about all the email you get.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Dana,

    You can at least end all the auto DMs from tweetlater by following their procedure.

    It doesn't eliminate all auto DMs but for me it was the source of most of them.

    Opt-Out Of Automated Welcome Messages TweetLater.com


    Mark Riddle
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    Today isn't Yesterday, - Products are everywhere if your eyes are Tuned!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    It's my favorite baldheaded marketer, come to the rescue!

    Oh wait - you auto-posted that? You sumbitch, how dare you. I'll never share another photoshopped Kevin Riley mankini photo with you again. (That's meant to be a threat, not a reward.)

    As for something that blocks auto-following - eh. No biggie. If no-one could use software to follow, we'd go back to just sitting there hitting the follow buttons manually, or hiring a VA to do it for us.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

      Oh wait - you auto-posted that? You sumbitch, how dare you. I'll never share another photoshopped Kevin Riley mankini photo with you again. (That's meant to be a threat, not a reward.)
      .
      Phil says thank you. The last picture pulled a spring.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Phil says thank you. The last picture pulled a spring.
        Fine. I had an illicit picture of Kevin Riley in a love-clench with an alluring hamster, and you don't get to see THAT either!
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Dana,
          Fine. I had an illicit picture of Kevin Riley in a love-clench with an alluring hamster, and you don't get to see THAT either!
          Yawn.

          Those are about as hard to find as snaps of JT out in a meadow with Mrs Herdwick.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I might be missing something (probably because I didnt everything) but Auto DMs arent a problem unless you mass follow people. I use to mass follow but got tired of the clutter. Tired of the mass DMs. Tired of the people who only post links. So I mass unfollowed people.

    So if you are sick of auto DMs, stop mass following people. That way, when you get a a auto dm, it will be from someone you care what they say.

    You, and others, need to remember that auto dms can be effective IF used correctly.

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Goulet
    I've been experimenting with this now for about 3 months.

    First off, if you auto follow me, you will probably never see who or what I am doing. I like the idea of looking at who is following me and decide if I should follow them or not.

    Having 1000 targeted followers is much better than having 100,000 non-targeted followers.

    Targeted followers will read your updates.

    I do not read updates that do not fall in my target niche because I don't Auto Follow just like I don't read emails from people who I have not subscribed to. Life is easier when you focus on your target market. Auto following and Auto DM'ing in my opinion is simply another form of SPAM. No matter how you color it, are you really thankful that someone is following you? Most of the time they are simply looking to build their following.

    If you are going to send an Auto DM, try this.

    "I see you have followed me on twitter. If you are interested in what I am doing, DM me back. I have something special for you"

    Give them 48 hours to respond and .....
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
    Replying to Twitter followers?

    Folks who take the time to follow me...?

    I thank them personally...when I remember to do so. Which is rarely.

    Auto Direct Message?

    It's that kind of 'system' that makes normal folk think we're slimeball scammers.

    Nobody in the real world wants an Auto Direct Message.

    No-one.

    They joined Twitter to feel part of a community.

    Steve
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    Not promoting right now

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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    Is JT John Taylor? I can only imagine who Mrs. Herdwick is.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dana,
      Is JT John Taylor? I can only imagine who Mrs. Herdwick is.
      Yes, he is. And yes, you can.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author J. Barry Mandel
    I'm not so sure if I agree.

    When I'm on Twitter I spend about 90 seconds looking at the latest tweets and that's it. So if someone tries to catch me with a live message I will miss it 10 times out of 10

    But, on the other hand, the DM will stay in my box and I can always go back to look at it since it is there unless I delete it


    Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post


    My advice - don't waste your time with auto DMs. If you want to communicate with anyone, take the time to send them a real live message addressed to them; it's a million times more powerful then an automated message.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    But wouldn't a personalized DM make more of an impact than an auto-DM?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
      Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

      But wouldn't a personalized DM make more of an impact than an auto-DM?
      In most cases personalization will do better in just about any scenario. Of course we are talking about real personalization, and not just... "Dear Firstname_fix".

      And Dana, I'm not completely anti follow. I think we have about 6 or 7 Twitter accounts that are set up to do auto follows. (Not exactly sure as I'm not the one who monitors them)

      And I agree that people without previous notoriety need to pull a few more strings then someone with an existing following. So I totally understand the method, and we use it in a few niches where we are basically unknown.

      However, I'm well aware that we are sacrificing any real ability to effectively communicate with the majority of people we are followed by or are following. It's an inevitable side effect for implementing the mass follow routine.

      I'm not here to say it's right or wrong. For my personal profile I don't use it, but understand why some do.

      But in the end, I just find it silly to complain about something that you willingly opened yourself up to. That's all.

      Do most people use Auto-DM like idiots?

      Absolutely.

      Would they make more money if they actually targeted their messages a bit more carefully and used real personalization?

      No doubt.

      The truth is, many marketers don't really give a sh#t. They just slap some stuff up there and see what works.
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  • Profile picture of the author MADINAZ
    I have no problem with DM's because it's always a good thing to get a glimpse at what other internet marketers are doing. I get a lot of ideas this way
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    Hi Dana,

    Maybe the problem is that you're following so many people per day? I'm just thinking that if you subscribed to 100 email lists per day, you'd face the same issue - 100 autoresponder messages in your inbox. So is the problem really auto-DMs? I mean, you're the one who decided to follow all these people on a daily basis, right?

    Anna
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Originally Posted by Anna Johnson View Post

      Hi Dana,

      Maybe the problem is that you're following so many people per day? I'm just thinking that if you subscribed to 100 email lists per day, you'd face the same issue - 100 autoresponder messages in your inbox. So is the problem really auto-DMs? I mean, you're the one who decided to follow all these people on a daily basis, right?

      Anna
      I do see what you are saying.

      However, Twitter is a different animal - comparing it to signing up for email lists is not exactly comparing apples to oranges - basically, when I follow someone on Twitter I am doing so because I want to have the chance to have a conversation with them. Twitter is a site which was set up to encourage interaction with others.

      When I sign up for an email list I know that I am regularly going to get an email in my mailbox with information and a sales pitch, and there's no interaction there.

      I honestly just wish there was no auto-DM option on Twitter, or that Twitter offered a way to opt out of it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Dana,
        I honestly just wish there was no auto-DM option on Twitter, or that Twitter offered a way to opt out of it.
        Why? They allow marketing. You want them to only allow the forms that are convenient to you?

        It's been pointed out repeatedly that you wouldn't get those if you weren't following tons of people every day. It's part of your business model. The auto-DMs are part of someone else's. No-one who's using automation to build a business on Twitter has any business complaining about someone else using automation for the same purpose, even if it is a different form.

        You play, you pay. Get used to it.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          I created a twitter profile, tweeted a few times for a few months, then deleted the profile. It was partly in a fit of anonymity, partly to remain different, partly to create a tantalising air of unaccessibility but mainly so that I could read threads like this and not have an opinion either way.

          I reckon more people should do the same. Commit Twitter suicide today!
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          I've just read through this whole thread, yet again (for the 3rd time).

          It kind of reminds me of another similar thread that always seems to pop
          up on this forum.

          The general theme?

          Marketers bitching about being marketed to.

          Here's the bottom line...like it or not.

          Those who don't like the auto DM feature and think it should be burned at
          the stake along with Joan Of Arc, fine. You're certainly entitled to your
          opinion and nobody is going to take it away from you.

          However, like it or not, this feature may very well work like gangbusters
          for some marketers IF it is used properly. So who are you to tell these
          people NOT to use it if it's actually helping their business profit?

          And can you absolutely say for certain that it doesn't help their business
          profit? Just because YOU don't use it means nothing in the grand scheme
          of things.

          So, you essentially have 2 choices since the auto DM feature is not
          illegal, not against Twitters TOS, and a perfectly acceptable use of the
          Twitter system.

          Choice 1 - Deal with it.

          Choice 2 - Don't use Twitter.

          Guys, it's really getting old hearing marketers bitch about being marketed
          to.

          And make no mistake about it...Twitter is a marketing tool.

          No matter how much you want to "claim" that it's just a way to BS with
          your buddies.

          It's not.

          As Paul Myers says...you play, you pay.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Steven,
            However, like it or not, this feature may very well work like gangbusters for some marketers IF it is used properly. So who are you to tell these people NOT to use it if it's actually helping their business profit?
            I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm suggesting that I think Dana's complaint is inappropriate.

            Be careful of using the "Marketers complaining about being marketed to" argument though, sir. There is a lot of room for appropriate discussion of abuse of systems, which is how I see mass auto-follows and auto-DMs on Twitter. (My opinion on that one is irrelevant, however, since Twitter expressly allows those behaviors.)

            As far as what helps people's businesses to profit... Spam works for a lot of people. Members of the RBN do quite nicely blackmailing businesses with, "Pay us, or we'll use our botnets to shut down your site and drive away your customers." Ng Chi-Chiu and people like him are making at least some profits from products they bought, refunded, and are now selling. Lots of people are making livings by selling resale rights to products they don't have the right to sell, even for personal use.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Steven,I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm suggesting that I think Dana's complaint is inappropriate.

              Be careful of using the "Marketers complaining about being marketed to" argument though, sir. There is a lot of room for appropriate discussion of abuse of systems, which is how I see mass auto-follows and auto-DMs on Twitter. (My opinion on that one is irrelevant, however, since Twitter expressly allows those behaviors.)

              As far as what helps people's businesses to profit... Spam works for a lot of people. Members of the RBN do quite nicely blackmailing businesses with, "Pay us, or we'll use our botnets to shut down your site and drive away your customers." Ng Chi-Chiu and people like him are making at least some profits from products they bought, refunded, and are now selling. Lots of people are making livings by selling resale rights to products they don't have the right to sell, even for personal use.


              Paul

              Paul, I understand that spammers make money. But the auto DM feature
              is not spam.

              In reality, the actual mechanics are no different than manually sending
              a DM to somebody. The only difference is that you're not physically
              hitting that send button.

              I personally have no stake in this. I use Twitter sparingly and have stopped
              using the DM feature altogether for a variety of reasons.

              Anyway, I thought I was agreeing with what you said.

              I honestly don't see the point about complaining about something that
              isn't against any TOS and isn't likely to be done away with any time soon.

              But hey, if people are that much against it, and if enough of them are, I
              have a suggestion.

              Gather together enough like minded individuals, sign a petition, and send
              it to Twitter to have the auto DM feature removed.

              I guess I'm just not seeing the point of complaining about something that
              you have no control over and can't do anything about. I get tons of auto
              DMs too. I simply don't read them. If somebody wants my attention, send
              me a personalized Tweet (I do read my @replies) and I'll get back to you.

              And then again, that is only MY opinion.

              Ultimately, it doesn't matter either as long as auto DMs are an acceptable
              part of the Twitter sphere.

              I prefer to complain about things that I have some control over.

              That's all I'm saying.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Steven,

                That was more "food for thought" than any kind of disagreement. This next part is also not directed at you...

                I see the "marketers complaining about marketing" comment so often, and it usually makes me want to puke. Since we're marketers, we're supposed to accept whatever sleazy, interruptive, destructive and abusive tactics other people choose to use?

                Bullshit.

                That hasn't got much to do with the topic of this thread, either, since the behaviors being discussed are allowed by the network in question. Just felt like venting.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                  I see the "marketers complaining about marketing" comment so often, and it usually makes me want to puke. Since we're marketers, we're supposed to accept whatever sleazy, interruptive, destructive and abusive tactics other people choose to use?

                  Bullshit.

                  On this I agree. I was referring more to the standard, acceptable, non spam,
                  above board stuff that I see people like you, J-MO, Kevin Riley and so
                  many other marketers use that still get met with the usual complaints.

                  Those who use spam tactics, hidden forced continuity, outrageous sales
                  page claims and a list a mile long that I'd just prefer not to go into, to me,
                  are the ones who give IM a bad name.

                  But again, that's just my opinion.

                  I guess over the years, I've grown a thick skin to being marketed to. Most
                  emails I don't even bother reading unless it's from somebody I know and
                  trust. And then, if they cross the line, or start to email me too much with
                  pitch after pitch, jumping on every launch that comes down the pike, or
                  whatever they do that no longer agrees with my personal code of
                  behavior, I simply unsubscribe.

                  Maybe I've just stopped caring about what others do and am more focused
                  on just making sure I run a tight ship.

                  And even with that, there will always be those who think I'm just as
                  sleazy as the next guy.

                  Like you have many times said, you can't please everybody and if you try
                  you will ultimately please nobody. It is one of the best lessons I learned
                  from you because I used to have a big problem with trying to do just that.

                  Anyway, as far as this Twitter thing, like I said, I have no stake in it so I
                  really don't care one way or the other where it goes. If Twitter does away
                  with the auto DM, fine. If not, just as fine.

                  For those who don't like it, this might be a great opportunity for a slick
                  programmer to come up with something that will block auto DMs, and that
                  way you only get the ones that are manually sent.

                  Knowing nothing about the Twitter interface, I have no idea if this is even
                  possible, but if it is and somebody can figure it out, there just may be a
                  market here.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Ultimately, it doesn't matter either as long as auto DMs are an acceptable
                part of the Twitter sphere.
                This thread, and your comment in particular, reminded me of something:

                "It is a very controversial subject. There are as many good ways to use it as there are bad. There will always be extremely opinionated people that will go overboard to fight spamming of any kind, and there will also be others that will do anything to fight for its legitimacy." -- Corey Rudl on spam

                I think auto-DMs are today where spam was around 10 years ago. Some people are still defending the practice while others are condemning it.

                I think that those that are defending it will be on the losing side. Already, some third-party Twitter services, perhaps most notably SocialToo (Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We're Ending the DMs | The SocialToo Blog), have ceased auto-DM services. TweetLater will let you opt out of receiving them. So, the momentum is certainly on the side of those who view auto-DMs as spam.

                I remember back in the day that there were people that defended spam. There were people that actually appreciated receiving unsolicited bulk eMail messages! Who knows--maybe there are still such people around today. But, the overall Internet "collective" has decided that unsolicited bulk eMail messages are spam and ISPs and even lawmakers (though their efforts are half-hearted and stupid) have made and continue to make efforts to stop or block spam.

                Back in the day, people also argued that, because you set up an eMail account, that indicated you were open to receiving eMail and, as such, spam was perfectly okay. After all, you opened yourself to it.

                I think that auto-DMs will be going the same way. For many people, eMail has lost a lot of value. Some people, notably the younger generation, use social media sites and texting as their primary means of communicating with other people. So, in the same way that people pushed against eMail spam, I think you will see a similar push against spam on social networking sites.

                So, those that like using auto-DMs, enjoy it while you can. Because I think a day of reckoning will be coming, and you'll be thrown into the same category of people that clutter my eMail inbox with solicitations for knock-off watches, discreet dating and happy pills. In some people's minds, you're already in that category.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                  I think that those that are defending it will be on the losing side. Already, some third-party Twitter services, perhaps most notably SocialToo (Time to Take a Stand - Yes, We're Ending the DMs | The SocialToo Blog), have ceased auto-DM services. TweetLater will let you opt out of receiving them. So, the momentum is certainly on the side of those who view auto-DMs as spam.
                  Dan, you may very well be right. I don't know. Twitter is still too young to
                  tell for certain. And if DMs are done away with (fine by me) then so be it.

                  But if not, I think a more productive use of my time is to concentrate on
                  what I can control the ultimately helps my own business.

                  I mean imagine if I did nothing but spend all my time complaining about
                  everything I don't like about marketing in general (spam, forced continuity,
                  and so on). And believe me, there is plenty I don't care for. But I prefer to
                  spend my time on the posiitve side of things (writing content, building my
                  list, product creation) because the other stuff doesn't feed my family.

                  But maybe that's just me.

                  As they say, to each his own.

                  Anyway, this has been a very interesting thread to say the least.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Dan,
                    "It is a very controversial subject. There are as many good ways to use it as there are bad. There will always be extremely opinionated people that will go overboard to fight spamming of any kind, and there will also be others that will do anything to fight for its legitimacy." -- Corey Rudl on spam
                    I talked with Corey about this a few times, having been one of those "extremely opinionated people." I'd be curious to know the year he said this, as it does not reflect his later position on the subject well.

                    The math of the situation puts auto-DMs in a very different category of threat than spam. It is possible to stop communication from any source on Twitter instantly and completely. Also, the number of people who can contact you through that channel is limited to those you follow.

                    Along with that, I'm not aware of any prohibition against them in Twitter's TOS, and they explicitly allow the use of the service for marketing purposes.

                    I wasn't the first, but I was one of the earliest people in the marketing community to come down hard against spam. For a time, I was easily the loudest of them. Respect for others aside, the overwhelming argument against spam was both obvious and inevitable: Left unchecked, it would destroy the usefulness of email for meaningful communication.

                    Auto-DMs do not have that potential in Twitter, and Twitter is not anything like pervasive enough or important enough for it to be as big a problem even if they did.

                    When I first got an account on Twitter, I followed a few of the people who followed me. As a result, I got a total of, I think, 9 auto-DMs, ever. 6 of them were from the same person, due to a broken bot set-up.

                    Not the same sort of threat at all. (Doesn't mean I like them, or consider tham anything short of rude, mind you.)

                    The potential for damage is much higher for forum spam, as it doesn't have the built-in limitations of auto-DMs. Leave it unchecked, and it renders forums completely useless. That's why I tend to sneer at people who ridicule the idea of "marketers complaining about marketing." They are almost invariably defending the erosion of communications channels.

                    (Note: That doesn't apply to the ones who sneer at people who call solicited email "spam." I consider it appropriate to make fun of the premeditatedly stupid.)

                    This isn't to say that I think your prediction is wrong. I believe that auto-DMs will eventually be phased out. Not because they're similar in threat to spam, but because the users of systems like Twitter are annoyed by them. Most people see it as a social system, not a broadcast environment.


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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      But if not, I think a more productive use of my time is to concentrate on
                      what I can control the ultimately helps my own business.
                      I don't spend a lot of time complaining about auto-DMs either, but when the subject comes up, I do sometimes feel free to submit my opinion, as you're doing. And, yes, there are more productive ways to spend time, but sometimes you just have to spend time unproductively to express your opinion or just relax.

                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Dan,I talked with Corey about this a few times, having been one of those "extremely opinionated people." I'd be curious to know the year he said this, as it does not reflect his later position on the subject well.
                      It was in one of his Internet marketing programs. The most recent date on version I have is 1999. So, either he said it in 1999 or earlier and didn't update it or change it for the 1999 edition.

                      The math of the situation puts auto-DMs in a very different category of threat than spam. It is possible to stop communication from any source on Twitter instantly and completely. Also, the number of people who can contact you through that channel is limited to those you follow.
                      True. While auto-DMs may not technically be considered spam, many of them are still junk. Maybe we need a different name for them. Maybe we can call them smeat.

                      I wasn't the first, but I was one of the earliest people in the marketing community to come down hard against spam. For a time, I was easily the loudest of them.
                      You can't have been the loudest of them. I think the loudest of them was the guy that reported me as a spammer for sending him a "Happy Holidays" eMail that wasn't commercial in nature at all. And, it wasn't a harvested eMail or anything either, since I had communicated with that guy too, both in eMail and on a forum. So, maybe you were the second loudest.

                      Respect for others aside, the overwhelming argument against spam was both obvious and inevitable: Left unchecked, it would destroy the usefulness of email for meaningful communication.

                      Auto-DMs do not have that potential in Twitter, and Twitter is not anything like pervasive enough or important enough for it to be as big a problem even if they did.
                      I disagree. Auto-DMs have already largely destroyed the usefulness of DMs for communication, especially for those with a large number of followers.

                      When I first got an account on Twitter, I followed a few of the people who followed me. As a result, I got a total of, I think, 9 auto-DMs, ever. 6 of them were from the same person, due to a broken bot set-up.

                      Not the same sort of threat at all. (Doesn't mean I like them, or consider tham anything short of rude, mind you.)
                      If I get 20 auto-DMs in a day, which does happen though it happens less often since I opted-out thru Tweetlater and SocialToo dropped auto-DM'ing, that pushes any real DMs to the second page, which means I'll likely miss it.

                      While that may not compare with the 50-100 spam messages I receive in eMail every day (those are just the ones that slip through the spam filters), it's still detrimental. It could be argued that you could unfollow those people and not receive them anymore, but it seems to me that most people only have an auto-DM upon following. So, it's a one-time deal. So, that makes it kind of like the CAN-SPAM Act, where you can send an unsolicited message and then say, Oops, sorry, won't do it again! if they complain.

                      Still, those one-time DMs are still burdensome. As mentioned in previous posts, they do interfere with personal DM messaging. And, you don't know until you follow someone that you will be hit with an auto-DM.

                      And, really, the majority of people that really need auto-DMs are marketers, and social networks, like Twitter, are not designed for marketing. They are designed for social networking. As such, they don't need to keep marketers happy.

                      The potential for damage is much higher for forum spam, as it doesn't have the built-in limitations of auto-DMs. Leave it unchecked, and it renders forums completely useless. That's why I tend to sneer at people who ridicule the idea of "marketers complaining about marketing." They are almost invariably defending the erosion of communications channels.
                      And thus the importance of warning against auto-DMs, which are eroding a communications channel.

                      I had a forum for a while that was almost 100% spam-free. But, registration was by mail, so that pretty much kept a lot of would-be spammers out.

                      This isn't to say that I think your prediction is wrong. I believe that auto-DMs will eventually be phased out. Not because they're similar in threat to spam, but because the users of systems like Twitter are annoyed by them. Most people see it as a social system, not a broadcast environment.
                      I don't know that they will be completely phased out, as there are legitimate uses for them. But, what Twitter may do is broaden their definition of spam to include auto-DM'd marketing messages. By doing that, auto-DMs would still be permitted, but if there are enough complaints against a user sending "smeat," Twitter could suspend their account.

                      If you look at it, Twitter is already pretty tough on marketers. If you set up an account with just a website link in your bio and a handful of short tweets ending in a "Hey check this site out..." and then go follow a bunch of people, you will likely get your account suspended. So, it's not really a stretch to imagine Twitter taking that a step further and suspending accounts that send a website link through auto-DMs instead, especially if enough people complain about the practice.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Dan,
                        The most recent date on version I have is 1999.
                        Ah. I never spoke with him in person until early 2000. Only a few times after that, but the thinking on the subject changed over time.
                        You can't have been the loudest of them.
                        Publicly? I'm not aware of anyone louder back then among marketers. I didn't say I was the most extreme, mind you...
                        Auto-DMs have already largely destroyed the usefulness of DMs for communication, especially for those with a large number of followers.
                        I'd wager that should read, "For those who follow a large number of people." And likely only the ones in marketing niches.

                        Out of the 75 or so that I follow, only 4 sent me auto-DMs. One asked if I liked chocolate. (Bev is weird, though. )

                        I don't send or receive a lot of DMs, but they're still useful for me. I haven't invited that many people to send them.


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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    I have to admit not having read through the whole of this thread, but here is my view on twitter and now facebook.

    I might be following someone, but I haven't signed up for their list to be mailed details of all their promotions, and download this or that.

    Recently, marketers have been sending personal messages to people to say, I have this new promotion, you can get a cheaper price if you buy it right now. Sorry, I don't want personal messages in facebook to hear about your latest promotion. Take a moment and see if I'm on your list, and you will find I am for the moment.

    Steven you ask why is it spam, not sure that it is using the really meaning of spam, but let me put it this way.

    You are a marketer, and you build up your list. You send out a newsletter or something you want to promote to your list. That's great and the formula we all teach and follow.

    What would happen if you sent the same newsletter to all your friends and family who are not on your list but in your email address book?

    Now it seems that marketers here think that the list is not so important, because they have up to 5,000 friends on facebook, and however many thousands of followers on twitter.

    They send an automated DM to their followers saying this is free, or this is my newest, or whatever they say.

    A person follows another person on twitter because they want to. They haven't signed anything which says, I am now on your list send me everything you send your double opt-in list.

    I don't want to hear the same message many times a day, because you don't want to autoDM, so you use something like tweetlater, and schedule it, to run at different times to see which one will make you the most money.

    There is no difference between autoDM which are nothing but sales pitches to auto content which are nothing but sales pitches.

    I have an autoDM when a person follows me, it isn't a sales pitch, and there is no link. I decided that it wasn't worth sending out manual messages, because too many of these are from bots and the person never, ever reads anything.

    So many people complain that they get hundreds of DM's and they assume they are automated. That isn't a correct assumption, because some people send out a DM manually to everyond who follows them. Yet, these same people think nothing about talking only about their business, they put links to their products in almost every tweet, they game the system as often as they can, and then complain when twitter closes down the loophole. Yet, they are the worst offenders for following the maximum number of people that twitter allow each day, not because they want to be social, but the more followers you have the more income you will make or so they think.
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  • Profile picture of the author JRG
    "Hey everyone thanks for reading this forum, I am so honored! Please check out all the links in my signature" - lol I couldn't resist an auto-reply?
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    I wish they banned the bots that automatically followed hundreds of people a day.

    I use my AutoDm for exactly the reason Dana hates. I use it because real people answer it, and bots don't. It means I don't have to go and check on someone's site to see who they are and what type of site they have, I get a response so I can talk to them, I don't end up wasting my time talking to people who can't take a few seconds to add me to their follows and talk to me.

    I have one autodm which goes out when someone follows me.

    I used to hear from some people on a daily basis, we would chat for a few minutes each day. Since they use bots to add in people and now have thousands of people to follow we never hear from them.

    I use tweetdeck, and I never see more than 100 messages at once. I never go and check on what has happened during the time I was off twitter, unless there is an interesting conversation and I follow it through.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    Hi Dana,

    Maybe the problem is that you're following so many people per day? I'm just thinking that if you subscribed to 100 email lists per day, you'd face the same issue - 100 autoresponder messages in your inbox. So is the problem really auto-DMs? I mean, you're the one who decided to follow all these people on a daily basis, right?

    Anna
    I do see what you are saying.

    However, Twitter is a different animal - comparing it to signing up for email lists is not exactly comparing apples to oranges - basically, when I follow someone on Twitter I am doing so because I want to have the chance to have a conversation with them. Twitter is a site which was set up to encourage interaction with others.

    When I sign up for an email list I know that I am regularly going to get an email in my mailbox with information and a sales pitch, and there's no interaction there.

    I honestly just wish there was no auto-DM option on Twitter, or that Twitter offered a way to opt out of it.
    I have to say, that sounds a bit disingenuous to me. I would have thought that following 100 new people per day would make it extremely difficult to maintain much a relationship with any one of those 100 people. Not to mention the 100 you followed the day before, the 100 you followed the day before that, and so on.

    Are you really following 100 people per day to build personal relationships with each one of those people... or to build a following for marketing purposes?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not one bit against building a following for marketing purposes (we're all in this forum because we love marketing, right?), but by the same token, I'm not sure why you have a problem with a lot of those people responding to your follow (whether for marketing purposes or otherwise) via an automated DM.

    That's my reading of the issue - correct me if I'm wrong.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Originally Posted by Anna Johnson View Post

      I have to say, that sounds a bit disingenuous to me. I would have thought that following 100 new people per day would make it extremely difficult to maintain much a relationship with any one of those 100 people. Not to mention the 100 you followed the day before, the 100 you followed the day before that, and so on.

      Are you really following 100 people per day to build personal relationships with each one of those people... or to build a following for marketing purposes?
      Both, basically. I do not expect to be able to maintain a relationship of any type with every single one of those 17,000 people, but that doesn't matter - I do get to interact with a lot of them, and the more people that I am following, the more people that I have a chance to interact with.

      Basically, Twitter is my online chamber of commerce. If I had a choice to attend a chamber of commerce event where there were five people, or tens of thousands of people, which would I go to? The one with a whole lot of people. The more people that are there, the more people might potentially hear my marketing message.

      And in my case, my marketing message generally involves me giving out a lot of free, useful information, which has resulted in me getting a LOT of business and referrals and repeat business.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Been gone for a week, floating in the Caribban soaking up some sun and local rum, and I was looking for a juicy thread to get back in the swing of things. Looks like I found it...

        Before I get to the meat of things, I'd like to address a couple of folks who, early in the thread, commented on 'marketers coming in and crapping on things'.

        Uh, do you folks sell something? Do you come here, to the Warrior Forum, to market something or learn how to do it better? If so, you ARE marketers, and you're pointing the fingers right back at yourselves. If you don't sell anything, or have no vested interest in marketing, what are you doing here? Perhaps you're painting with too broad a brush.

        On to Auto-DMs and such...

        I think we're looking at another case of confusing the tool with the output from using that tool.

        Take the simple jack knife. In the hands of an artist or even a decent craftsman, it can produce a work of art. In the hands of the unskilled or lazy, it produces a pile of shavings.

        A CNC tool can be programmed to do the same thing, only a lot faster. Program it properly, and it can turn out apparently hand-carved tikis by the thousands. A poor program will produce a lot of wood dust and scraps just as quickly.

        Unfortunately, online marketing puts a lot of very powerful tools in the hands of the unskilled. What some see as a working tactic are often the scrap from learning to use the tool. It's like operating a manufacturing plant with no QC department. There's nothing to block the defects from hitting the market.

        I've yet to dip my toes into the Tweet stream, so I can't be sure, but I'm guessing that clumsy auto-DMs are inefficient, ineffective and, in bulk, a pain to deal with. I'm also guessing that skillful auto-DMs work well, and recipients probably don't even realize they got an automated response.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Dana,
          And in my case, my marketing message generally involves me giving out a lot of free, useful information, which has resulted in me getting a LOT of business and referrals and repeat business.
          The nature of your content has exactly nothing to do with whether auto-DMs are "pure evil." The fact that you make money with it isn't really relevant to the rest of the users of the system, either.

          The ONLY action on your part that has any bearing on the issue is the admitted use of automation tools to follow large numbers of people, and the relationship of that process to someone else automating a different part of the Twitter system.

          At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you create that situation for yourself, as part of your business model. Just like I create the situation in which I get hundreds of emails from subscribers every week, many of which have no connection at all to the content I send them.

          As long as Twitter allows them, they're part of the business. Get used to it.

          As far as a comment you made earlier in the thread, I think you sell yourself short. If it weren't Twitter, you'd have found another way to make the money you're making. You're too smart and you work too hard to have just "lucked into" the only thing that would ever work for you.

          John,
          Before I get to the meat of things, I'd like to address a couple of folks who, early in the thread, commented on 'marketers coming in and crapping on things'.

          Uh, do you folks sell something? Do you come here, to the Warrior Forum, to market something or learn how to do it better? If so, you ARE marketers, and you're pointing the fingers right back at yourselves.
          Yep. Same thing I heard people saying 10 and 13 years ago about spam. "If you're selling something, you're a hypocrite to complain about someone else selling something."

          Bushwah. Nonsense. Piffle, I say!

          The reason so many people, including marketers, complain about this stuff is simple: It's most often abused in ways that interfere with people going quietly about their own day-to-day activities. It's not just the inexperienced, either, as your examples seem to suggest.

          Very experienced people use these tools casually, because there's so little cost and so little consequence to misusing them. With anything that works, scaling up means more money. So, they find something that works and scale it up, regardless of the impact it has on the vast majority they're pissing off.

          In the process, they reduce the utility of the systems they infect (yes, infect) for everyone else.

          That ignores the impact of Cluebies on the systems they abuse. The extremely low cost of entry, and the prevalence of tools for abusing systems, ensures that the majority of people using any technique for marketing online will use it in incorrect and destructive ways. That's simple reality.

          So, we're all just supposed to ignore that damage, because we're also marketers?

          This is why I laugh when I hear people say that we should be allowed to police ourselves. Not only is it not happening, it's not possible.


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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Dana,
            You keep harping on the auto-following issue, Paul.
            "Harping." Nice try, ma'am.

            Yes, I think it's hysterically funny to call an automated technique that a system allows "pure evil," when you're using a similar automated technique.

            Your major complaint seems to be that auto-DMs are inconvenient for you. My point, which is just as valid for manual mass follows, is that they're a natural result of your business model. As long as Twitter allows them, they're going to be. Get over it.

            And yes, they can be used in non-destructive ways, so they're not "pure" evil.

            I don't really have an issue here, with you or with the system. I simply think it's instructive to look at the assertion you made in the OP, and the implications that go with it.

            For instance, Dan, who doesn't use mass auto-follow software, addressed the issue in a factual way, along with discussing the emotional factors. You talked about how annoying they are and how evil they are and how your usage of the system is different because it makes you money.

            Which set of arguments do you think will carry more weight with people who don't have a horse in the race?


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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            Before I get to the meat of things, I'd like to address a couple of folks who, early in the thread, commented on 'marketers coming in and crapping on things'.

            Uh, do you folks sell something? Do you come here, to the Warrior Forum, to market something or learn how to do it better? If so, you ARE marketers, and you're pointing the fingers right back at yourselves.
            John,Yep. Same thing I heard people saying 10 and 13 years ago about spam. "If you're selling something, you're a hypocrite to complain about someone else selling something."

            Bushwah. Nonsense. Piffle, I say!

            The reason so many people, including marketers, complain about this stuff is simple: It's most often abused in ways that interfere with people going quietly about their own day-to-day activities. It's not just the inexperienced, either, as your examples seem to suggest.

            Very experienced people use these tools casually, because there's so little cost and so little consequence to misusing them. With anything that works, scaling up means more money. So, they find something that works and scale it up, regardless of the impact it has on the vast majority they're pissing off.

            In the process, they reduce the utility of the systems they infect (yes, infect) for everyone else.

            That ignores the impact of Cluebies on the systems they abuse. The extremely low cost of entry, and the prevalence of tools for abusing systems, ensures that the majority of people using any technique for marketing online will use it in incorrect and destructive ways. That's simple reality.

            So, we're all just supposed to ignore that damage, because we're also marketers?

            This is why I laugh when I hear people say that we should be allowed to police ourselves. Not only is it not happening, it's not possible.


            Paul
            Boy, you take a week off and the skills start to deteriorate. This is the second post I've had to take a second whack at to get at what I was trying to say...

            When I made the above comment, I was taking a crack at two posters who seemed to be placing themselves beyond the crass world of "marketers". They were complaining that every time they found something good, marketers came in and ruined it. Not a few marketers, not some marketers, not the inexperienced, the lazy or the deliberate abusers. All marketers.

            I've been known to rant about the rogues and fools who ruined a lot of viable channels. Like Usenet becoming unusable thanks to newsgroup spammers. Email becoming harder to work with daily. Even sites designed to generate income from Adsense. People who use article spinners to inflict gibberish that clogs the search engines.

            Paul, I'm on your side in the 'marketers marketing to marketers' debate. I just don't care for having people casually lump me in with the abusers.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I agree with Paul's stance on this issue.

    Unlike email, twitter is completely subject to the user's control.
    I don't look for followers and have only followed a few that I already knew before being followed. I do follow whoever follows me - at least at first. If their posts are nothing but an automated string of ads, I cut them off and unfollow.
    I have started getting a a couple dozen followers a day, sometimes a few more. Only around a quarter - if that many are using the auto-dm thanks. So I update my followers - usually around a page at a time, and know that I'll receive some DM's so I go back and delete those. After that, they don't usually dm me again unless they actually want to say something.
    Only twice have I gotten auto dms other than thank yous. Those were ads and I simply unfollowed those people so I wouldn't have to repeat that if I reach an outrageous amount of follow/followers. It's not going to hurt me to lose them. People like that aren't interested in what is going on there - they are just looking for a lot of viewers for THEIR stuff. Any other dm's have actually been people saying real things, asking real questions.

    I don't understand why marketers have become so rabid that they have to automate EVERYTHING. The ideas of "automation" and "social" in a context such as twitter are not mutually inclusive. Automating completely out of true communication completely defeats any social aspect of the application. Without the socialization twitter is nothing but Google and in the case of your homepage it's worse than google because the messages aren't categorized until you go to search.

    When I want to be listed on google - I work on being listed on Google. When I want to network on a social network - I do it through...uh...socialization. Go figure. It might take a bit longer - but it's solid.

    I think the terminology Paul used "premeditated stupidity" fits the "automate everything on twitter" philosophy with precision.
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
    IMO - this whole automated DM thing is a storm in a tea cup... I don't mind getting them and some have been really interesting.

    I get all DM's sent to an email account and use filters to move the "thank you for following" DM's into their own folder (every now and then I go take a look and delete the uninteresting ones) - That leaves the normal DM's in the main twitter folder and easy to find.

    Granted I only get 10 or 15 new followers a day, so it's easy to manage - but my filters work just fine so I'm not worried about increasing the number of followers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    You keep harping on the auto-following issue, Paul. Before I teamed up with Peter Drew on the auto-following software, I did the EXACT same thing - I just pushed clicked on people's profiles manually instead of having software do it for me. So is your issue the fact that I use software to do something for me, or is it that my business model involves me following many people on Twitter every day?

    And it is true that if Twitter didn't exist I'd use something else to promote myself and make money - but Twitter allowed me to build a business from the ground up in mere months, and vastly increased my earnings.
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  • Profile picture of the author ltdraper
    I agree that auto DMs are somewhat evil, but I don't mind receiving them because they're just playing the game like anyone else. I haven't turned mine off because the sales keep rolling in. And it obviously hasn't hurt my twitter following.

    The bottom line is that if they didn't work people wouldn't use them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anna Johnson
    You keep harping on the auto-following issue, Paul. Before I teamed up with Peter Drew on the auto-following software, I did the EXACT same thing - I just pushed clicked on people's profiles manually instead of having software do it for me. So is your issue the fact that I use software to do something for me, or is it that my business model involves me following many people on Twitter every day?
    Now I'm really confused. You use an automated tool to follow tons of people per day... but see it as pure evil when those people send you an automated DM in response?

    Ummm... I'm getting an image of a pot... and a kettle...



    In any case, seems as though your Twitter strategy is working really well for you, so maybe receiving all the automated DMs are just a 'cost' of doing business? Like Paul, I get a lot of emails from people in response to all the emails I send them (via autoresponders, newsletters, etc). I figure it's just a part of the business I'm in.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Originally Posted by Anna Johnson View Post

      Now I'm really confused. You use an automated tool to follow tons of people per day... but see it as pure evil when those people send you an automated DM in response?

      Ummm... I'm getting an image of a pot... and a kettle...



      In any case, seems as though your Twitter strategy is working really well for you, so maybe receiving all the automated DMs are just a 'cost' of doing business? Like Paul, I get a lot of emails from people in response to all the emails I send them (via autoresponders, newsletters, etc). I figure it's just a part of the business I'm in.
      In my opinion - and clearly you disagree - there is a significant difference between my following someone, which means that I am seeking out a relationship where I can interact with that person - and sending the same annoying obvious auto-form DM to hundreds or thousands of people.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

        In my opinion - and clearly you disagree - there is a significant difference between my following someone, which means that I am seeking out a relationship where I can interact with that person - and sending the same annoying obvious auto-form DM to hundreds or thousands of people.
        I am taking valuable time away from my article writing to respond to this
        because I think it needs to be said.

        Anna is right. This is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black and I'm
        going to explain why as crystal clear as I can.

        It isn't auto DMs that you have the problem with. It's DMs that don't add
        to YOUR business.

        Example:

        Let's take John Doe. John Doe knows nothing about automation. He doesn't
        auto follow and he doesn't do the auto DM thing. But every person who
        follows him, he does go into his Twitter account and sends a DM to the
        person.

        It reads as follows:

        "Thanks for following me. Check out my blog at <URL> for some great
        tips on <whatever>"

        That DM is going to read NO different from the automated DMs that you're
        complaining about and will be JUST as annoying.

        Okay, I know what you're going to say. "But the people who send manual
        DMs won't be as many because most don't want to take the time to do
        it. They can't be bothered."

        But wait...Just hold on a minute.

        YOU can't be bothered to manually follow a person. Your system involves
        running off to some guru who has umpteen million followers, following him
        and then waiting for all the sheep to follow you. All you have to do is
        check off the auto follow in your account and there you go...instant mass
        following...without doing one bit of work. Total automation.

        So these people, who you can't be bothered with to follow manually, why
        should THEY be bothered with having to send you a manual DM? I mean
        after all, if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander.

        You can automate how YOU run YOUR business but they can't automate
        how THEY run THEIR business?

        If that isn't hypocritical, I don't know what is. And I'm sorry but somebody
        had to say it.

        The problem is, these DMs are interfering with YOUR business and YOU
        don't like it.

        Well, these same DMs, sent to other people who maybe don't have as
        many followers, thus they don't have to go through as many, might just
        get them to download that free report or go to that person's blog thus
        helping THAT person with THEIR business.

        Don't they have that right?

        After all, Twitter wasn't created for YOUR personal bottom line.

        Speaking of which, here it is.

        Auto DMs are NOT against Twitters TOS. Until they are, these people are
        doing nothing wrong and nothing different than those who can't take 5
        seconds to manually follow another person.

        Wow, the hypocrisy in this business just astounds me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
          QUOTE=Steven Wagenheim;794172

          Okay, I know what you're going to say. "But the people who send manual
          DMs won't be as many because most don't want to take the time to do
          it. They can't be bothered."

          [/QUOTE]



          Kindly don't EVER make up quotes for me and say that you know what I'm going to say. I guarantee you, our thought processes could not possibly be more different. Do you want people to go around claiming that they know what you are going to say, and then putting words in your mouth that you would never say? I doubt it.

          And no, I do not in any way hold the opinion that you just made up and attempted to attribute to me. It's a completely irrelevant statement which has nothing to do with why I dislike auto-DMs.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

            QUOTE=Steven Wagenheim;794172

            Okay, I know what you're going to say. "But the people who send manual
            DMs won't be as many because most don't want to take the time to do
            it. They can't be bothered."


            Kindly don't EVER make up quotes for me and say that you know what I'm going to say. I guarantee you, our thought processes could not possibly be more different. Do you want people to go around claiming that they know what you are going to say, and then putting words in your mouth that you would never say? I doubt it.

            And no, I do not in any way hold the opinion that you just made up and attempted to attribute to me. It's a completely irrelevant statement which has nothing to do with why I dislike auto-DMs.[/quote]


            I knew that would be the only thing about my post you would comment
            on.

            So, care to now comment on the issue I brought up?

            Or does my argument make too much sense?
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Dana, a silly question, how many of the thousands of people you are following do you have any sort of relationship with?

    I follow around 200 people and yet I have a relationship with maybe 30 or 40 at the most.

    Would it be less annoying to send the same DM but to manually send it?

    Isn't it far more annoying when people tweet dozens of times a day the same tweet, whether they are doing them manually or have them automated?

    Paul, thanks for the comment about my DM, Dana complained that I was causing her to gain weight with my chocolate blog
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    Steve, it'll be a slow day at the Warrior Forum when you're not here polluting the pool with your nasty, snarky, pointless comments. Comments which frequently are so ridiculous that the site admin has PUBLICLY told you that your advice is bad on more than one occasion.

    And no, there is no point in my RESTATING what I've already said countless times in this thread.

    Now I'm waiting for you to run off whining to give me an infraction, which is what you seem to do when anyone dares question your babbling.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Dana_W View Post

      Steve, it'll be a slow day at the Warrior Forum when you're not here polluting the pool with your nasty, snarky, pointless comments. Comments which frequently are so ridiculous that the site admin has PUBLICLY told you that your advice is bad on more than one occasion.

      And no, there is no point in my RESTATING what I've already said countless times in this thread.

      Now I'm waiting for you to run off whining to give me an infraction, which is what you seem to do when anyone dares question your babbling.

      No need to get testy. I have no desire to run off whining and give you
      any infractions. I have better things to do with my mom in hospice right
      now.

      But I call 'em like I see 'em.

      Auto DMs are screwing up your business because you can't get to the
      DMs of people wanting your services. I get it.

      But why is it okay for you to put no effort into getting followers with
      your auto following, but those who follow you have to put in effort
      to contact you?

      Am I the only one here who sees the hypocrisy of this?

      Anyway, I've said all I have to say.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Here's my next silly question of the day.

    What is the difference between me saying "Thank you for following me, send me a tweet @myname and tell me if you like chocolate"

    To me saying, "Thanks you for following me, send me a tweet @myname and tell me if you like chocolate"

    One is on tweetlater so is an evil AutoDM

    The other is on a notepad document, and I manually copy and paste it into the DM and send to all new followers.

    I wonder if the real thing that people hate are not auto DM's but auto DM sales pitches, there is a huge difference.

    The other assumption made is that because I send out an autoDM (just 1) I never read any DM's because they are automated.

    Some of us use AutoDM for various reasons, while we never use bots for anything else on twitter. We don't stack up a whole pile of tweets to go out at set times of day, because those are the times when most people are on twitter, and if we don't do it then we will lose sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      I was autoDMed by Bev Clement!!

      And I don't mind at all because I follow just over 100 people and add about 2 or 3 a week.

      When I was following a few dozen people I had time to read what they were saying and interact with them. Now, if I don't sign in for a few hours I have to scroll down a few pages to pick up where I left off.

      The thing is, I take the word "follow" literally. I use Twitter like a forum, a place to meet interesting and knowledgeable people who I can interact with and learn from. I actually follow what people say/recommend.

      I screen people before I follow them, too. I check their website and look how often they post. If they post "information" more than every hour I block them. If they are tweeting back and forth in a real conversation with others that's a good sign for me.

      I know marketers will do some automated stuff. So what? If they get out of hand I can just block them. They won't miss me because they are not "following" in my sense of the word and I won't miss them either.

      I am not very interested in Twitter marketing at present. I will use it for a future project but I will only follow "centres of influence". Having a hundred of them is way better than ten zillion autofollowees.

      Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Martin you have nailed it completely. There is no way following even a 1,000 people you can really have a relationship with them.

    But, in my experience those who follow thousands only have a relationship with about the same number of people as I do.

    If my followers never reach 2,000 I'm not bothered, because I rarely hear from the majority, the ones I do (that I have no relationship with) are only putting their links in, and the ones who are interesting in what I sell let me know.

    Out of interest, for those who have thousands of followers what percentage of these people buy from you?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
    Well, in my case, I get a few customers a week, but since those customers not only spend an average of several hundred dollars, but frequently come back for more and refer other people to me...over time it's added up to a thriving business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Dana, I know that, and I'm not debating whether a few people can give you a thriving business.

    Let's do some figures for a moment, and I'm guessing figures for the moment

    You have 10 clients from twitter a week.

    You are following 15,000 people you so the % of people that you get work from is very low.

    Now those 10 clients want to work for you, and want to have a relationship with you.

    They use word of mouth to recommend other people.

    Yes this could snowball, but would those same 10 people have come if you were following 100 people, because it isn't the people you follow who see your tweets but the ones who follow you. They would still see the messages, and the 10 people would still come and ask for work.

    If you get a few customers a week, that means you don't get customers for the largest percentage of followers.

    I wonder how many of your followers you ever hear from, also if you were to unfollow say 14,500 people how many would auto unfollow you?

    To me it isn't about the number of followers but the number of relationships forged whether that is in terms of networking, chatting or closing the sale.

    It seems that the higher number of followers a person has the lower the closing the sale becomes.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      It seems that the higher number of followers a person has the lower the closing the sale becomes.
      Twitter isn't "one size fits all", try as hard as anyone might to make it
      appear so. And not everyone uses it as a 'direct selling' medium.

      People use Twitter SO differently, it's practically IMPOSSIBLE for one to
      see it the way the other does - and that's the fascination of social media!

      I have ONE rule for Twitter - "There are NO RULES!"

      That said, I don't complain about how others use it... though I use biting
      sarcasm to poke fun at some of the ridiculous ways *I* see (and think and
      feel) it's being used - and 'Auto-DM' (as well as 'Auto-FOLLOW') fall into
      that category.

      Let's do some figures for a moment
      I've done that over and over, in many different ways, Bev.

      And each time, they add up to something different!

      Very frustrating, counter-intuitive and maddening too.

      So I stopped - and enjoy Twitter the way I want to. Do it effectively.
      And yes, before anyone wonders, I do profit from it... while following no more
      than 40 people - and interacting with them.

      Being the quintessential OPT-IN medium, if YOU receive communication in
      your tweet-stream that isn't to YOUR liking, there's only one person to
      blame...

      YOURSELF!

      My 2 cents

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Dana, I know that, and I'm not debating whether a few people can give you a thriving business.

      Let's do some figures for a moment, and I'm guessing figures for the moment

      You have 10 clients from twitter a week.

      You are following 15,000 people you so the % of people that you get work from is very low.

      Now those 10 clients want to work for you, and want to have a relationship with you.

      They use word of mouth to recommend other people.

      Yes this could snowball, but would those same 10 people have come if you were following 100 people, because it isn't the people you follow who see your tweets but the ones who follow you. They would still see the messages, and the 10 people would still come and ask for work.

      It seems that the higher number of followers a person has the lower the closing the sale becomes.
      I could not disagree more. The more followers I have, the more money I've been making, to the point where I've completely neglected infoproducts and haven't developed any new ones in ages because I am so busy with press releases that I don't have time to do much else. Thanks for reminding me, I need to finish up several info products I've got sitting half finished on my desktop.

      As for "those same 10 people would have come if you were following 100 people" - again, i disagree.

      First of all - MANY people on Twitter dislike the arrogance of hardly following back anyone but having a big Twitter following. Yeah, if you're a celebrity or a famous leader in your field, you can get away with it, but if your average person does that - people will start unfollowing them left and right - and rightly so.

      As for the percentage of people who I get business from - the MORE people that are following me - the more business I have been getting. A small PERCENTAGE of people following me end up using my services. It's not like there is one tiny core group of people who are interested in what I do, and that group is never going to grow.

      I agree that the number of Twitter followers does not correspond to something like an email list in terms of percentage response rate - but Twitter isn't an email list. It's an entirely different animal.

      So I am going to continue operating with what I know works for me, and has worked brilliantly not just for me but for many others:

      1.) Auto-DMs are a poor way to communicate

      2.) Building up a large list of followers gets me more business than I know what to do with

      3.) Going on Twitter every day several times a day and interacting with whoever is on there at the time is enough to send me a steady stream of clients.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
      Originally Posted by Bev Clement View Post

      Dana, I know that, and I'm not debating whether a few people can give you a thriving business.

      Let's do some figures for a moment, and I'm guessing figures for the moment

      You have 10 clients from twitter a week.

      You are following 15,000 people you so the % of people that you get work from is very low.

      Now those 10 clients want to work for you, and want to have a relationship with you.

      They use word of mouth to recommend other people.

      Yes this could snowball, but would those same 10 people have come if you were following 100 people, because it isn't the people you follow who see your tweets but the ones who follow you. They would still see the messages, and the 10 people would still come and ask for work.

      If you get a few customers a week, that means you don't get customers for the largest percentage of followers.

      I wonder how many of your followers you ever hear from, also if you were to unfollow say 14,500 people how many would auto unfollow you?

      To me it isn't about the number of followers but the number of relationships forged whether that is in terms of networking, chatting or closing the sale.

      It seems that the higher number of followers a person has the lower the closing the sale becomes.

      Sorry Bev...I replied before I got to this part of the thread. You said what I was thinking in a much clearer way. :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Bev Clement
    Dr Mani I agree with you. People don't like AutoDM , while others do, people think that we are missing out by not following thousands others disagree.

    My opinion is that less is more in terms of being able to build relationship with them.

    I did autofollow for about a week, and I spent time checking the profile of those who I autofollowed, and I quickly discovered that was a really bad idea.

    I also think that using a bot to automatically follow people is useless, because again you don't know who you are following.

    Again this is my opinion, but I think it is arrogant for people to try and fit us all into one box, the box that suits their marketing model. It doesn't work in business and works even less in the social networking.
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    • Profile picture of the author davebo
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Yeah Dana, you lost all credibility regarding Twitter. Knowing you make a full time living from Twitter isn't good enough.

        I felt a smelly wind pass by above me. Must be more hot air from our resident troll. Please tell him to stay away from the burrittos.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dana_W
        Originally Posted by davebo View Post

        Dana, you're reminding me of Nancy Pelosi. Just quit the back peddling and side-stepping. Admit your sins and move on with your life.

        In your constant attempt to be known as a twitter goddess, you just lost loads of credibility in this thread.
        I find it hilarious when people present bad arguments - or in your case no argument - and then say "Admit you're wrong!"

        By the way, why don't you have an avatar picture and URL on here?
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  • Profile picture of the author prosperpreneur
    There is no harm in saying thank you for following however trying to build a list or offering something is not the right way to use twitter.

    i agree with Dana about sending a personal message with a meaningful relationship building statement is million times powerful then then auto dm.

    my 2 cents..

    Thanks for readin.
    -Gaj
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    • Profile picture of the author jbsmith
      In terms of advice to how people use their DM after being followed - this is very good advice.

      The one type of DM I do **sometimes** pay attention to is a post to connect on another social network. Now that makes some sense - since we are connecting on Twitter - then yes I may be open to connecting on Facebook or Myspace or somewhere else. I'm in the headspace of building a social network - at least this sort of DM is in context of the moment.

      Just because of sheer volume, I don't respond to all of those either - but I have to some of them.

      I have NEVER taken a freebie from a DM, just not what I'm looking for when I'm active on social networks.

      It's not wrong to giveaway stuff -- but as with any marketing, you need to think about where your prospect is at the moment they read your offer...something we all forget in our marketing from time to time.

      Jeff
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi,

        As a twitter outsider (I don't use it anymore), regardless of auto DM's or not (yes that's slightly off topic but the thread is morphing slightly into a general 'best way to use twitter' thing) I see the key to the best use of it being similar to the key to using any other means of getting words on pages - make your words count.

        In other words, if you can get your reader to like you, respect you, learn from you and remember your brand/name, and ideally if you can get them to go from twitter elsewhere where you don't have a limit on the number of characters, and you can use all types of media to achieve and compound the same aims - you are using it in the best manner.

        As for auto DMs, it's probably better to focus solely on achieving your aims with as many of your readers as possible than it is to fret too much about responding individually to people. This is the nature of the internet - a huge audience in which to cast to your net.

        So like email marketing, if you feel comfortable with it, in most cases it is better (in terms of quicker, higher profit) to take every opportunity to place your message in front of someone (EG auto DMs and list bombardment).

        But if you are not comfortable with it, it's probably not such a good idea.
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