Offline Warriors ...do you agree with this?

[chrisnegro]

Ok Offliners:

I'm sensing somewhat of a good trend the last 2 weeks. I'm actually seeing not as many posters posting WSO's on how they money doing this or that with local business owners. Don't get me wrong....Guys like Bayo and Hotlinkz are branding themselves (and doing WSO's) to help our businesses grow by typing up reports for us to sell or to giveaway to business owners...NOT SELLING how much they have made with this secret stategy sort of thing.

In fact, I would vouch to say if people are pitching their secret strategies on how they made this much money from an offine client ect.... (and are constantly pouding the WSO forum) then chances are they are NOT MAKING THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT THEY CLAIM.

I mean think about it. With all the money to be made offline....and someone is CONSTANTLY pounding the WSO section how they made this and that......THERE IS NO NEED TO DO A WSO BECAUSE YOUR TOO BUSY MAKING MONEY OFFLINE.

I'm way to busy to be pounding the WSO section and sharing the secret strategies that I use as there is way more money IN YOUR TIME closing deals than wth your time doing WSO (more money per hour spent). I'm working on 2 deals right now worth $20,000-$45,000 in fact ---if I have time I'll do a WSO. Seriously....offline marketing is SERIOUS business due to the marketing technologies that are coming out righ now.

I'm not saying that anybody who is pitching offline WSO's is doing this. All I'm saying...it makes me do a double take when I see this. In the left pocket I have $2,000-$50,000 deals waiting to be had....in the right pocket I have $50-$500 WSO's waiting to be had.....hmmmm!


Thoughts/Opinions?

Chris Negro

[jsherloc]

Chris,

I do agree with you for the most part in that it makes me think twice about the posters TRUE motivation for the WSO. I also believe MOST of the people posting WSO's are providing different types of solutions for people trying to enter the offline game from different angles/approaches.

It really is just like regular IM though, you can only read so many reports and packages before you realize that taking action is the REAL solution to most of your problems. A lot of the offline WSO's have helped me take different approaches to offline marketing, they also gave me a lot more confidence as well.

I find myself repeating some lines that I read in certain offline WSO's to offline business owners and they do really give you a confidence boost. I think that at the end of the day most of the offline WSO's can help you with your offline efforts, but you still need to get out and utilize what you read, or else it is all for not.

Jim

[artwebster]

Hi, Chris,

What you say is so true!

I am no longer able to work so I have been reduced to trying to sell a very simple methodology that will get every marketer who wants to sell offline all the clients he wants and give them the money they need to pay his fees.
I would much rather be out there earning easy money than trying to find a way to teach marketers how to do it themselves in the current atmosphere of 'give it away' and what still remains of the 'cash cow' attitude.

[Michael Silvester]

Hi Chris,

I totally disagree mate!

What makes you think that someone has to choose between
doing one or the other. Whats wrong with doing both?

Seriously Man...some of us are doing it to help people
and not for the money.

Take Care,

Michael Silvester

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Michael Silvester

Hi Chris,

I totally disagree mate!

What makes you think that someone has to choose between
doing one or the other. Whats wrong with doing both?

Seriously Man...some of us are doing it to help people
and not for the money.

Take Care,

Michael Silvester

Your not "CONSTANTLY" posting WSO's in the offline area. And your further along in your consulting craft.

Do not take this personally...take this in "concept". Hey by the way -- check your PM dude

Chris Negro

[BlueStar]

Yes, I sensed the same thing.

I have been working with biz owners since the early 90's with Offline marketing. We didn't have the internet back then so I had no choice, lol.

If you are good at what you do (like myself) why waste your time doing WSO's for $7-$97.

It is so much easier to make $10-$20K working the offline market then working with IMers. If I do a WSO it will be free with no backend, nada, nilch, nothing. I don't need the money.

I think what they are trying to do is work the backend by doing $2,000 seminars, selling high priced back end products, etc...

I've bought their products (all of them) and I can tell you they have a lot to learn. Does their system work, yes. I turn down businesses every week that want to work with me. I can make 20K easy the first year, but they don't fit my profile. I only work with clients that I want to work with. I choose them, they don't choose me.

Don't get me wrong, what they are offering is decent info, especially for someone new. But for an experienced pro like me I gain nothing.

Besides that, it is so much easier to work with a few clients that think you are a guru then to work with so many IMers who are a lot of work.

I'm way to comfortable with my lifestyle to do that type of marketing.

After working the offline biz for 12 months and you are not making at least 25k a month, you are doing something terribly wrong. You are targeting the wrong businesses, live in a small city, or you are flat out terrible at getting out your message.

Bus owners want help, now more than ever. Everyone here knows 99% more about online marketing than any bus owner, I guarantee it.

Just help bus owners develop a game plan, charge them an arm and a leg (seriously) and help grow thier business and they will be grateful.

These offline marketers are way Undercharging for their services. They must think they are in India. I keep raising my prices and I never have a client say no. I do my homework beforehand. I know what they are currently spending and I know thier niche and how much they make. My absolute minimum is 5k setup fee and $997 month. My bigger clients I get up to 50k setup (a lot of work though and very detailed analysis) plus $4k month.

If I can offer Newbies to Offline marketing any guidance it would be to raise your prices 4x more than what you think you should charge.

[melanied]

I think that, aside from helping the people that buy your product, it's a good way to start making a name for yourself and begin to position yourself as an expert and a guru. I think it's part of a larger strategy.

[mindspring]

I think there is probably some truth on both sides of the aisle. Some internet marketers mean well and want to help others prosper, while others want to use the money they make from their WSOs to finance the marketing of their offline consulting business. They could also refer to their WSO as a report they have written trying to advise other internet marketers on how to approach businesses. And when they share their WSO with a potential Offline client, they will then be perceived as an expert - A teacher to internet marketers.
Cheers.

Steve.

[timmykins]

Originally Posted by BlueStar

Yes, I sensed the same thing.

I have been working with biz owners since the early 90's with Offline marketing. We didn't have the internet back then so I had no choice, lol.

...

It is so much easier to make $10-$20K working the offline market then working with IMers. If I do a WSO it will be free with no backend, nada, nilch, nothing. I don't need the money.

Bluestar,

Would you spend an hour to share your experiences and knowledge, I'm sure that many people here would appreciate it.

As for the OP, I'm on both sides too, I have run a WSO and I hope it has helped people, but look at it from another perspective, you could say exactly the same about pretty much every WSO produced by experience marketers who already make a lot of money on the Internet. I guess they just want to be financially compensated for sharing their knowledge and experience.

Regards

Tim

[Jason Anderson]

I tend to agree with this quote:

Originally Posted by melanied

I think that, aside from helping the people that buy your product, it's a good way to start making a name for yourself and begin to position yourself as an expert and a guru. I think it's part of a larger strategy.

True, some of the claims in the sales copy of the WSO may be a little over the top and make you wonder a bit...

However, I will say this...

Kudos to the WSO'ers who are at least taking action with building their list and offering a very low cost "feeder" product to get the buyers in their pipeline.

Even if the WSO's may be a little hyped up, that's ok with me. If the info has just one piece of information in it that even sparks an idea or two which WILL make me money with offline clients then that cheap WSO is worth it to me. Even if the overall product is not that good and it's obvious that the writer probably really isn't walking the walk.

The fact is...they DID take the time to gather their thoughts and put it together in a package for the WSO buyer.

It's not up to me to critique the WSO sales copy. In fact I never really do. I don't care if it sounds over the top or if it sounds like they are just trying to enter the market with their own thoughts...that's perfectly fine with me.

In fact, I give the WSO much much more slack when it comes to sales copy. I KNOW that many people here are just trying to generate something to continue on.

However, with the huge influx of WSO's being launched with some of them containing pure rubish...I will not hesitate to ask for a refund if it is and there was a Satisfaction Guarantee offered.

A few years ago, I would have been embarrassed to ask for a refund because I was also concerned about the "relationship" I could build. But now...geeze, this forum has gotten so HUGE and the WSO section has gotten so competitive with all the "how to make money running a WSO courses out there"...lots of people are joining the WF just so they can run WSO's.

So...WSO seller beware.

As you can see, your WSO's WILL be judged. You will have varying opinions of how you are running your WSO's. People will question your authority and in many cases you will have none. Don't let that stop you though. Get your WSO's out there. Build up your list, build up your business.

Don't just run WSO's though. Get your WSO going and then open it up to the public. Get your testimonials in order...

But...

If you are just testing ideas, I MUST agree...don't tell people that you are an expert if you are not. Just reconsider your sales page. Don't consider if you should or shouldn't run a WSO.

Personally, and I'm in the minority, I won't care if your sales page is garbage or if I can see through the fact that your sales copy is probably contrived. If you have packaged up information that I'm looking for I'll probably buy. Just make sure that you do give good information or at least the information that you have listed in your sales page.

Keep in mind though...be prepared for refunds if your tactics, proven (or unproven) ideas, and information is just pure garbage.

Remember, with the massive amount of people here on the WF, all with individual opinions, you will run into critiques of how you conduct business here (welcome or not).

[AndrewCavanagh]

I have to agree with you.

I haven't had the time to create a new WSO for a long, long time.

And so many of the other people in this niche who I've talked to who are actually out selling their services to the offline niche have told me exactly the same thing...selling WSOs is simply not worth the time and effort.

If you can make $1,000 to $10,000+ a client you tend to spend your time doing just that.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[AndrewCavanagh]

Originally Posted by jsherloc

you can only read so many reports and packages before you realize that taking action is the REAL solution to most of your problems.

That is the real key.

The whole offline business has never been more complicated than going and talking to some business owners and helping them make more sales and profits with whatever internet marketing skills you already have.

You can start by talking to the business owners you already know and the business owners your friends know.

You can call business owners on the phone.

You can send them snail mail, email, carefully designed to get a high percentage to call you.

You can approach them in many many different ways.

But the guys who are talking to business owners for the longest...one on one sharing good marketing knowledge are the people who are making real money.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by mindspring

Some internet marketers mean well and want to help others prosper, while others want to use the money they make from their WSOs to finance the marketing of their offline consulting business.
Steve.

I'm ok with this actually... its just when they constantly POUND the WSO section of how to make tons of money with this offline strategy. And when you buy the product....I CAN TELL they did a great job and spent alot of time on it.

But then...I see another WSO with yet...alot of other GREAT CONTENT....and then another one. Then I sit back and say ok.....these products took a long time to build and write and they are a recently offline person. Are they busy doing deals or doing WSO's to make money. The picture doesn't fit.

Now...if they are writing PLR reports to help your business grow (so you can sell or give away) I'm fine with this.....they are not saying they made tons of money with their strategy but rather just providing more services to us Offline Warriors to help our business grow.

If people are selling their how I made $25,000 with this strategy and constantly POUNDING (keyword phrase here)the WSO section....it really makes me wonder. For one main reason:

1) Once you smell and taste $5000-$50,000 checks...YOUR HOOKED IN DOING DEALS rather than WSO"s (this is normal human behavior) How can someone realistically pound the WSO section unless they are a very seasoned offline marketing consultant and have TONS of cash in the bank.....and they want to give back and their WSO is more of a hobby/fun thing rather than the motive to make TONS of sales.

2) Offline WSO's (if marketers are serious about making money offline) should be looked at as fun money or start up business money.....NOT REAL LIVELYHOOD MONEY.

My 2 cents away...I'm not saying I'm 100% right...just sharing my geniune opinion!

Chris Negro

[Riz]

Well i agree and disagree with the OP.

There are experienced Offline Experts like David Preston, Scott Million, Andrew Cavanagh, Michael silvester - all of whom have had wso's here, taken the time to create their wso's but are clearly out on the field making money at the same time.

However, i agree that they are not pounding the wso section with constant offers - i do tend to doubt the legitamacy of many apparent offline experts.

I have made most money learning from:

1) David Preston
2) Andrew Cavanagh
3) Michael Silvester

If it wasnt for the wso's offered by these guys i wouldnt be where i am today in my business.

The other thing i will say is that the ones offering wso's on using there material like Calvin ,aka Hotlinks for PLR and Maria and Robert offering Consulting Contracts are ideal. They dont need to spend much time on there wso as they already have them in ise in their own Consulting business.

RA

[JohnMcCabe]

Chris, I can see valid points on both sides.

On the one hand, it's as you say -- why spend time offering low-return WSO's when you can actually be out practicing your craft?

On the other hand, there's the Jay Abraham-Dan Kennedy-Joe Polish-Rory Fatt-etc. model of establishing expertise in a field and then add another layer of income by teaching that expertise.

The folks one needs to be wary of, especially for beginners, are the 'one trick ponies' that had something work once. It might work again, if you can duplicate the exact circumstances. Approaches that can be effective in special circumstances are touted as universal applications.

Here's an example from outside of the consulting business...

Back in 2005, the real estate market here in Florida was white hot. There was a fellow that was teaching a real estate investing course teaching what he claimed was making him millions. In a nutshell, the idea was to monitor building permit applications for new condos and buy purchase options at pre-construction prices, wait a short time, then sell the options.

I'm guessing it worked like gangbusters during the period when developers had people camping out to enter drawings to see who would be allowed to buy units at pre-construction prices.

Fast forward to 2007. The crowds camping out were gone. Prices were dropping fast, developers were adding upgrades for free just to try to move inventory and keep crews working. So-called investors were panicking, trying to dump units that were worth less than what the investors owed.

How effective do you think flipping purchase options was in 2007?

As one old hand told me when I bragged about making some money in the stock market, "Never confuse brains with a bull market, boy. You'll lose your shirt every time."

Personally, I don't buy a lot of WSOs. And the ones I do buy are usually by folks who have established themselves as knowing their onions here in the forum.

I do try to get myself on the mailing lists of people like Joe Polish and Rory Fatt and Dan Kennedy to see how they do things.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by RA123

Well i agree and disagree with the OP.

There are experienced Offline Experts like David Preston, Scott Million, Andrew Cavanagh, Michael silvester - all of whom have had wso's here, taken the time to create there wso's but are clearly out on the field making money at the time.

These are not the people i've observed. You can tell and know who they are! I agree actually...I've bought great WSO's from these guys (everyone one of them infact) and they have helped me tremendously actually.

But then again, these guys are not pounding the pavement with constant WSO's!

[Nic Lynn]

I'm sure that in some cases that this is true. However, I fundamentally disagree with you:

1. There is nothing wrong with multiple passive and active income streams. In fact, this is EXACTLY what people should be doing. ESPECIALLY, when you are using the same "content and "skills" to essentially drive multiple different opportunities

2. There is a long tradition of experts in their field helping out non-experts, both for profit and pleasure. Take Warren Buffet for example. He is largely considered to be the worlds greatest investor, having made billions by simply playing the stockmarket right. This is also a guy that is a CEO to Berkshire Hathaway (one of the biggest companies in the world), and who writes article, books and does speaking engagements on the Art and Craft of investing for the layman. This guy is one of the 10 richest people on the planet and does exactly what you argue against as unlikely in your theoy.

I have made a great sum of money in the offline/online hybrid world of IM (using techniques that I have not seen here or in any WSO I have purchased or perused). Does it mean that I haven't made any money, if I offer a WSO? No, of course not! In fact, this thread may have motivated me to do a WSO.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

On the other hand, there's the Jay Abraham-Dan Kennedy-Joe Polish-Rory Fatt-etc. model of establishing expertise in a field and then add another layer of income by teaching that expertise.

Yes BUT THEY CHARGE A PREMIUM FOR IT and (to get to their level) they also have to many employees to carry out both streams of revenue (which is a very serious operation at their level). Comparing them with the 98% of the OFFLINE WSO's seems to be comparing apples to oranges both in terms of operation, offline marketing revenues made and experience.

Point being though....most people on the WF are new offliners within the last 2 years and justifying $7-$20 WSO's where they are marketing the $5000-$40,000 secret method....makes you go HMM

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

As one old hand told me when I bragged about making some money in the stock market, "Never confuse brains with a bull market, boy. You'll lose your shirt every time".

WOW...one of the best quotes I've heard this year. For those of you PLEASE pay attention to what he just said. Their is alot of depth to what he just said here. I've noticed John you have some powerful quotes in your arsenal --- keep them coming !

Cheers,

Chris Negro

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Ed Stas

I'm sure that in some cases that this is true. However, I fundamentally disagree with you:

1. There is nothing wrong with multiple passive and active income streams. In fact, this is EXACTLY what people should be doing. ESPECIALLY, when you are using the same "content and "skills" to essentially drive multiple different opportunities
.

First question for you Ed -- how in the world can you justify getting $5000-$50,000 in revenue deals versus a $50-$750 WSO (exceptions of course but you get the idea)?

Originally Posted by Ed Stas

2. There is a long tradition of experts in their field helping out non-experts, both for profit and pleasure. Take Warren Buffet for example. He is largely considered to be the worlds greatest investor, having made billions by simply playing the stockmarket right. This is also a guy that is a CEO to Berkshire Hathaway (one of the biggest companies in the world), and who writes article, books and does speaking engagements on the Art and Craft of investing for the layman. This guy is one of the 10 richest people on the planet and does exactly what you argue against as unlikely in your theoy.

Second question for you Ed - are you comparing Warren Buffett to every offline warrior here who does WSO's. He has made his money....he is old and most of the things he does now is pure fun -- look at him...he is always smiling


Again....point being (and bringing this back to the original post -- see again if you forgot it) how can someone jusify selling their offline secret which made them $25,000 (for example) and spend MULTIPLE HOURS IF NOT DAYS writing a $7-$20 WSO? Especially when they are making $5000-$40,000 in real offline deals ....makes you go HMM is all Im saying.

In fact....Does Warren Buffet and and the super rich pound the WSO Forum selling their secret strategies for $7-$20. Let me give you a clue --- THEY DON'T COME TO FORUMS LIKE THIS....as they are too busy making it in the real world....and they pay people to sell their HIGH PRICED SYSTEMS online (if they use this business model).

Again...cloke your analysis and bring it back to the original post. In concept you and John McCabe are right in fact -- this is our ultimate goal/destination. But the masses are not where Warren Buffett and the Dan Kennedy's of the world are. If they are.....they pay MANY PEOPLE to do this and they charge $500-$2000 per system. They SNEEZE MONEY out of their nose and their business model makes complete sense.

[BlueStar]

Originally Posted by timmykins

Bluestar,

Would you spend an hour to share your experiences and knowledge, I'm sure that many people here would appreciate it.

Tim

First of all let me say this. The most Important info you can offer a business owner is your Macro Marketing skills. Forget you know anything about the Internet, seriously. What if there was no internet?

I have to admit my marketing skills are very good. I learned how to Market irrespective of any Media that is available to me. I don't need the Internet to make a killing. It just so happens I'm very good at it and right now it's the Wild Wild West days of the Internet so I can make a small fortune. WE as warriors know this stuff inside out, but biz owners don't have a friggin clue. Show them an AutoResponer and they say Huh! Why would I want that? What's SEO, PPC, Direct mail doesn't work, etc...

Then I show them my results and what I can do for them.

When I approach business owners I go in letting them know that I can possibly Lower thier overall budget and increase their sales and revenue.

I was studying Gary Halbert back in the 80's about marketing and direct mail. Gary Halbert is the one who hooked me on marketing. I still have the 1st manual (cheap copies from a junk printer with a terrible binder) that I bought from Gary. I think I paid $87 25 years ago. He was very blunt, talked about sex, his girlfriends, etc... I was hooked

Since then I've gone on to study the Masters: John Caples, David Ogilvy, Dan Kennedy, Gary Halbert, Claude Hopkins, Dick Benson, etc...

If you read the books below I guarantee YOU will know more than 99% about Marketing than anyone here on the WF and the Planet. See how easy it really is! Get these books, about $200 and read.

Let me give you what I consider some of the best books available:

Influence, Robert B. Cialdini, Book - Barnes & Noble

Amazon.com: Tested Advertising Methods (Prentice Hall Business Classics): John Caples, Fred E. Hahn: Books


https://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/st...html?sid=store


Amazon.com: My Life in Advertising and Scientific Advertising (Advertising Age Classics Library): Claude Hopkins: Books


Amazon.com: No B.S. Direct Marketing: The Ultimate, No Holds Barred, Kick Butt, Take No Prisoners Direct Marketing for Non-direct Marketing Businesses: Dan Kennedy: Books


Amazon.com: To Be or Not to Be Intimidated?: That is the Question: Robert Ringer: Books


Amazon.com: The Closers: Ben Gay III: Books&


Amazon.com: Think and Grow Rich eBook: Napoleon Hill: Kindle Store


David Ogilvy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


My personal hero:
Halbert Newsletter Archives

YouTube - gary halbert Videos

[JohnMcCabe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe
On the other hand, there's the Jay Abraham-Dan Kennedy-Joe Polish-Rory Fatt-etc. model of establishing expertise in a field and then add another layer of income by teaching that expertise.

Yes BUT THEY CHARGE A PREMIUM FOR IT and (to get to their level) they also have to many employees to carry out both streams of revenue (which is a very serious operation at their level). Comparing them with the 98% of the OFFLINE WSO's seems to be comparing apples to oranges both in terms of operation, offline marketing revenues made and experience.

Point being though....most people on the WF are new offliners within the last 2 years and justifying $7-$20 WSO's where they are marketing the $5000-$40,000 secret method....makes you go HMM

Guess I should have elaborated a little...

I know I tell a lot of folks, if they ask, to study Kennedy et al. I believe many of the folks you are talking about are trying to duplicate the model they see, on the scale they are comfortable with and can manage.

After Andrew's snowball New Years post and Preston's monster thread, the whole Offline Gold/Cash Cow thing became one of the bull markets on the forum. And there are a lot of beginners trying to cash in on it.

And I think that like the dotcom bubble and the real estate bust, the WSO market for offline consulting will cool and the sellers you are talking about will jump to the next fad.

It's going to be a tough market, with some of the folks that are dispensing high-quality thinking, advice and feedback for free. I hate to think what I'd have to charge at my normal rates for the time I've spent here on the forum...

Chris, you have a talent for getting conversations going around this topic. For the most part, they end up civil, useful exchanges. You keep'em coming, too...

[Nic Lynn]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

First question for you Ed -- how in the world can you justify getting $5000-$50,000 in revenue deals versus a $50-$750 WSO (exceptions of course but you get the idea)?

It is soooo easy to justify. One you made yourself. There are always exceptions. Fact is, there are people that are making real money with WSOs. And, I also think of WSOs for building a list, giving something back to the forum, rasing your own guru profile in the community, testing a product, adding your own product to your IM resume, etc. Those might not lead to revenue immediately, but they certainly can and do lead to increasing your revenue power.

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

Second question for you Ed - are you comparing Warren Buffett to every offline warrior here who does WSO's. He has made his money....he is old and most of the things he does now is pure fun -- look at him...he is always smiling

Ha. Of course not and you know it. Just making a simple analogy. Also, I don't know what old has to do with anything. Are you comparing old people to folks that are done with life and either have their money or they don't? Also, Warren Buffet is still a CEO... I don't think he does that just for pure fun given his employees, board and shareholders. And he has been doing these same things for decades... he wasn't always old, but he has always been making money and teaching.

The point is, is that no matter how much money you make, there are still valid reasons for doing a WSO.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Ed Stas

It is soooo easy to justify. One you made yourself. There are always exceptions. Fact is, there are people that are making real money with WSOs. And, I also think of WSOs for building a list, giving something back to the forum, rasing your own guru profile in the community, testing a product, adding your own product to your IM resume, etc. Those might not lead to revenue immediately, but they certainly can and do lead to increasing your revenue power.

You have a point with this but again...these types of people sell their $25,000-$100000 secrets (for example) in $700-$2000 per system and they pay people to do it for them. Would also believe this is true for list building, giving something back, testing a product, abd adding their product for their resume.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Chris, you have a talent for getting conversations going around this topic. For the most part, they end up civil, useful exchanges. You keep'em coming, too...

Your a wiley veteran John -- I always read your posts as they are laced with wisdom and concrete thought.

P.S. The civil part of your message made me grin

Respectfully yours,

Chris Negro

[Nic Lynn]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

Again....point being (and bringing this back to the original post -- see again if you forgot it)

I honestly thought this was an open discussion of opinion. I really don't appreciate your passive-aggressive commentary.

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

how can someone jusify selling their offline secret which made them $25,000 (for example) and spend MULTIPLE HOURS IF NOT DAYS writing a $7-$20 WSO? Especially when they are making $5000-$40,000 in real offline deals ....makes you go HMM is all Im saying.

Not really. It's the same content, different applications. It's the perfect scenario.

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

In fact....Does Warren Buffet and and the super rich pound the WSO Forum selling their secret strategies for $7-$20. Let me give you a clue --- THEY DON'T COME TO FORUMS LIKE THIS....as they are too busy making it in the real world....and they pay people to sell their HIGH PRICED SYSTEMS online (if they use this business model).

Appreciate the "clue." After that, this will be the last post of yours that I participate in. And, I have seen plenty of the super-rich sell their "systems." Usually, it is in the form of a published book from a major publishing house. But you certainly see the marketing efforts around that... in venues that are relevant (including marketing through articles, tv/video appearances, Internet advertising, etc.... sorta sounds familiar, doesn't it?)! Oh, of course they outsource. But so do I. So should every IMer in my opinion.

Good luck in all that you do, Chris.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Ed Stas

I honestly thought this was an open discussion of opinion. I really don't appreciate your passive-aggressive commentary.



Not really. It's the same content, different applications. It's the perfect scenario.



Appreciate the "clue." After that, this will be the last post of yours that I participate in. And, I have seen plenty of the super-rich sell their "systems." Usually, it is in the form of a published book from a major publishing house. But you certainly see the marketing efforts around that... in venues that are relevant (including marketing through articles, tv/video appearances, Internet advertising, etc.... sorta sounds familiar, doesn't it?)! Oh, of course they outsource. But so do I. So should every IMer in my opinion.

Good luck in all that you do, Chris.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ed as all opinions are welcome! Your thoughts on welcomed and appreciated.

Respectfully yours,

Chris Negro

[Kyle Tully]

Chris I think you can generally spot the fakers from those who have been there and done that.

Believe me, anyone who understands opportunity cost knows you don't do an offline consulting WSO to make money, you do it to help others.

My WSO's have always been on the higher end of the pricing scale, and been very successful, yet on a pure opportunity cost basis I'm still bleeding money all over the forum.

However you can't put a price on the feeling you get when your students succeed. Sounds cheesy but it's SO true. I get more pumped up about their deals then mine these days!

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

THERE IS NO NEED TO DO A WSO BECAUSE YOUR TOO BUSY MAKING MONEY OFFLINE.

Nope that doesn't even enter my mind.

I don't think just because someone is doing a lot of promotion that automatically mean they don't know what they are doing or they are fake.

To me it is very consistent with offline marketing concepts.

This IS Practicing what they Teach, using internet marketing skills to promote retail and service businesses.


Mark Riddle

[Jillian Slack]

I agree with some of these points and disagree with some.

If you're already going to the trouble to set up a video camera while you're doing a presentation about your services to local business owners, why not go to the next step and have someone edit that video to create something to use to train other IM'ers to teach them how to do what you're doing?

Sure, some of the WSOs look like they would take a while to prepare for sale.

But, in some cases, the Warrior who is selling that WSO is preparing the footage for the team of sales reps that they are building. Or they outsource the project or work with someone who can put it together.

When I buy them, I'm not thinking in terms of, "How slick is this video? Because if this video is really good, that means the person who sold me the WSO isn't really making money doing this. They wouldn't have the time to create this slick video if they were REALLY busy selling their local SEO services."

Plus you're going to see this in ANY type of WSO.

Some will be great and some will be crappy.

Some will seem thrown together and unpolished, yet they'll have fabulous info that makes them worth the price.

Same with the really polished presentations. Making it really sharp doesn't guarantee that it will be fabulous content.

Or something that is really easy for me to take care of, do it fairly quickly, and with great quality, might be difficult for someone else to do quickly and with great quality.

Let's say I'm one of the people who can actually get out there and sell the local SEO packages to local biz owners. I do it well. I've got it down to a science, people like me, I get in there, get the job done, make the sale, and then start assigning the individual tasks to the people I trust when I outsource.

I'll sell X amount of packages per day, visit X amount of local business owners for the first time, make X amount of calls, and then check on the progress of what I outsourced.

Now what do I want to do with the rest of my day?

Go sell some more?

Maybe. Or maybe I want to mix things up a bit. What if I'm fine with the money I'm making right now, or I'm the type of person who needs to take care of different tasks throughout the day to avoid burnout or ADHD tendencies.

What if I prefer to take a few hours to work on another aspect of the business, such as preparing the training documents and videos.

So, I guess what I'm saying is if I like to mix things up during the day and the result is being able to sell a few WSOs to folks and teach them to do what I'm doing, why not?

The other end of the spectrum is if what I'm selling is absolute crap and I truly don't know what I'm doing.

Sure, there are people who notice the activity on the forum and decide to put together a WSO without having a CLUE about how to run that type of business. That's when it's up to the customers of that WSO to speak up and ask for a refund if the info truly sucks.

Reminds me of the old saying, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Coming from several generations of teachers, I've never appreciated that old saying because I know for a fact that there are plenty of teachers who know how to do what they are teaching, and they are better teachers because of it.

[cubaguy]

sadly many WSO items are worthless despite claims, most I suspect are making little or nothing

[Kelly Verge]

Chris,

There's at least one person whose cheap offline WSO is really nothing more than the first step in a funnel - a funnel that I'm pretty sure leads to a membership and eventually coaching. If all of this is automated it can be a decent income stream that compares with the ROI (for their time investment) of their offline consulting.

I'm sure there are those who have just rehashed others' stuff trying to capitalize on the offline trend.

[kosmo101]

I will add to this. I am not known in these forums and subscribed to one of these offline marketers whom I THINK you are speaking of. This person sold a WSO I bought then seems to come out with many...taking about large deals while teaching others. All WSO's are worthless TO YOU unless you take action. So I did and ran into a unique deal which actually ended up making me rack my brain for a way to save the deal...which I did and Im getting X per month for this offline deal.

now, with this... I also had in the back of my mind that I always wanted to get my name out there, build a list and also help people. I truly believe many people here make money and do want to help others. Sure, they want to make a couple bux for putting it down on paper or showing their techniques. I mean if you invented a system...would you just give it away? If the system got you a 25k or 5k job...and you really thought others could do this too.. and you spend a week writing it up.. why would it be bad to make a WSO for $27 or something?

Anyways back to my story..so with my unique deal which ended with a new spin on the original WSO's teaching.. i thought i could maybe get my name out there and give others a way to make/save deals. Will I make a WSO..probably not as I dont think its worth a dollar amount but I would give it away free to anyone interested. I do think sharing ideas, experiences and info..even for a WSO price is great. It might inspire someone to take action. Someone might even make some money off my brainstorm. I think that is worth more then $27 or whatever. But I do not fault WSO people for charging what they learned, discovered, or figured out.

Its just like any offer you get... some seem hard to believe .. but you wont make $1 if you dont take action. I think people do not want to put the time and work into it as it is WORK. Everyone seems to be looking for the easy button...just throw up a website, slap ads on it and you will make $1000 a day. Not gonna happen. It takes alot of work to make any income happen. The letters that go out make it SEEM easy but it is not and 99% do not want to put the work in that is needed. So then like anything they bash the product as not working.

Like always..pick one area..read everything you can and then take action. Dont blame the IMers. Blame yourself. I know I could be making more but I like to watch TV or Go out with friends. Its about the committment.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

This IS Practicing what they Teach, using internet marketing skills to promote retail and service businesses. Mark Riddle

You have a point here but the concept is within doing a offline WSO -- not practising doing their internet marketing skills. I'm all for practicing what you teach in marketing (best way to cement your learning in fact)....but is a WSO actually practicing what they are teaching.... if so why not talk to business owners and teach them via a consulting job, workshop or any other ways of teaching business owners?

[Jeremy Kelsall]

2 words - Stop Hating

Seriously, I mean, I think I know who your talking about...but, so what? Testimonials are good and are of the variety of "I made money doing this" so, it's all good...or it should be anyway.

Not everyone runs their business the same way or has the same goals for their business. So, what you might see as a waste of time or not making sense might be someone elses business plan.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

2 words - Stop Hating

Seriously, I mean, I think I know who your talking about...but, so what? Testimonials are good and are of the variety of "I made money doing this" so, it's all good...or it should be anyway.

Not everyone runs their business the same way or has the same goals for their business. So, what you might see as a waste of time or not making sense might be someone elses business plan.

I'm not hating dude Your making me laugh because in my heart of hearts I'm not. In fact there is NO ONE,TWO or three or four people doing this. In fact the what or who isn't the important thing anyway.

Hey...I'm all about entreprenurialship man as once you start getting these high end checks....YOUR DIFFERENT...the hunger to get more intensifies.

I come to the Warrior Forum to share my thoughts for free (for the most part) and learn from the brightest marketing minds in the world. AND THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE HERE ON THE WARRIOR FORUM...HANDS DOWN !

Your funny Jeremy -- I'm glad to see your sense of humor!

Cheers Mate,

Chris Negro

[AndrewCavanagh]

To be entirely fair about this there have always been great WSOs, good WSOs, okay WSOs and some really really dodgy WSOs.

You can't blame people for trying to jump on one of the hottest marketing trends in the world today (the integration of online and offline marketing in business).

You do have to expect the level of skill and experience is going to vary enormously from one WSO to the next.

The point about it being easy to make money in a bull market is a good one.

I buy many of these WSOs and many of those strategies aren't going to work too well once the honeymoon is over and hard core businesses are selling internet marketing services to the business sector.

When this market matures you want to be the guy who's taken the time to develop real skills...both in talking to business owners effectively and in increasing their sales and profits with the internet marketing strategies you use.

It's relatively easy money now but that won't always be the case and in the long run the guys with the most skill are going to be the ones making real money while others falter.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

but is a WSO actually practicing what they are teaching....

Yes they are providing services to service business owners (consultants)

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

if so why not talk to business owners and teach them via a consulting job, workshop or any other ways of teaching business owners?

They ARE teaching business owners via workbooks, videos, teleclasses, and live workshops all the normal consultants tools to help business owners. Yes Some are just getting started in the consulting business, but they are still business owners.

They are providing different products that the businesses that they are dealing with will find valuable.

Just like showing a nail salon how to build more business by using online and offline tools, they are showing consultants how to create their business, grow using online and offline tools and methods by providing the business owner additional information and resources.


Mark Riddle

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh

When this market matures you want to be the guy who's taken the time to develop real skills...both in talking to business owners effectively and in increasing their sales and profits with the internet marketing strategies you use.

It's relatively easy money now but that won't always be the case and in the long run the guys with the most skill are going to be the ones making real money while others falter.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

Very well said Andrew....YOU HIT A BULLSEYE with that one ! Guys...what he just said was powerful.

Nice job !

Chris Negro

[Robert_Rand]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

Ok Offliners:


I mean think about it. With all the money to be made offline....and someone is CONSTANTLY pounding the WSO section how they made this and that......THERE IS NO NEED TO DO A WSO BECAUSE YOUR TOO BUSY MAKING MONEY OFFLINE.

False!

I respectfully disagree.

In essence, you could say that about all information marketers who come out with a lot of products... But in reality you're simply imposing what you believe is possible as reality.

It may be your reality - but it certainly doesn't have to be everyone's.

You could easily say the same thing about Trump. He always has a new book out. Does that mean we are supposed to assume he is not actually "doing it"? Because that's kinda what you're saying...

Let me give me you another example...

Two weeks ago, I went and visited someone by the name of Frank McKinney in West Palm Beach. Me and a couple of friends had a chance to tour his new Green Certified Mansion which is on the market for $29 million dollars. Now, for many people this could be the achievement of a lifetime but for him it's just another home. On top of this, he just released three new books at the same time which are all becoming bestsellers. For many people, writing one book takes years. Then he showed us a documentary of himself completing the Badwater Ultra Marathon which is 130 miles in Death Valley California during Summer (130 degree heat). AND on top of this... his Caring House Project Foundation continues to make incredible progress building homes for the less privileged in Haiti.

So you get the idea - ACHIEVEMENT is relative.

So because you think constantly creating WSO's is a lot of work it automatically means someone is not the real deal? Sorry, that's not the way it works my friend. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you're right about many of them, but it's very dangerous to generalize like that.

Furthermore, just because you only make a certain amount per WSO does not mean someone else makes that amount. For example, someone could simply be building a buyers list and then selling $5,000 coaching packages. Who knows...

Finally, is it just me or is there a little irony in your signature considering the content of your OP

[JRG]

I have talked with several of those who are out there teaching this stuff and the bottom line is they really don't make much on selling these packages. Many of them do just want to help others. But it also helps them brand themselves. It makes them even more of an expert on the topic.

It is an investment into their future products where chances are they will be charging in the thousands to teach you. But since you got value and made money with their $97 product, you now know the worth of a $1,000 product.

Never put all your eggs in one basket always have other things going on. Why not teach what you are doing. If you are truly a pro at it you should be able to throw an ebook together in minutes and it sells on auto pilot if it is any good.

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Robert_Rand

False!

I respectfully disagree.

You could easily say the same thing about Trump. He always has a new book out. Does that mean we are supposed to assume he is not actually "doing it"? Because that's kinda what you're saying...

In critical analysis, you have to compare apples to apples NOT apples to oranges and take the comparison in light of the ORIGINAL POST (see further posts where I address this above). Your comparing Donald Trump with people on this forum and he is in an entirely different season of his business (not a comparison what so ever).

By the way...just to illustrate this a little further....is DONALD TRUMP POUNDING THE WSO SECTION with his products and claims. No he uses others venues as the market is different and he has MILLIONS in the bank, pays other people to market his products....and his business makes complete sense. Again apples to apples and oranges to oranges -- not to mention getting back to the original post.

There are posters who are taking what I said in a different vein and context. And again...I'm not against doing a WSO -- is the constant pounding of it with constant claims of riches that they made and secret strategies.

Originally Posted by Robert_Rand

Furthermore, just because you only make a certain amount per WSO does not mean someone else makes that amount. For example, someone could simply be building a buyers list and then selling $5,000 coaching packages. Who knows...

AHH....now we have something here. Good post Robert....the long term value of the list (if this is what they are doing when offering a WSO ---as some don't) could provide long term value and make perfect business sense. You have a winner her with this one (nice job).

Originally Posted by Robert_Rand

Finally, is it just me or is there a little irony in your signature considering the content of your OP

Again, using critical analysis skills and taking into the context of the original post, I'm not counstantly pounding the WSO section and I'm giving this away for free AHH...see what critical analysis can do for you when you take your words and link it back to the original post. Its the constant pounding that makes you do a double take.

You can take anything anybody sais....AND IF YOU DON'T LINK IT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL post....its not a sound argument. Hey...I'm not against doing WSO's (don't take this out of context -- keep it in line with the original post).

P.S. I've had serveral people PM me privately and totally noticed this too (not that this justifies anything) but there is just something that doesn't add up. That said...I'm all for entreprenurialship and if thats the business model people want to use -- GO FOR IT! I'm not saying I'm right as this is a debate and all opinions are welcome -- just sharing my geniune thoughts

Respectfully yours,

Chris Negro

[Shaun OReilly]

I see no problem with someone who is a real world practitioner in the offline arena running a WSO provided they share useful information that helps others.

What I do have a major problem with is complete charlatans who have jumped on the offline bandwaggon and are creating products based on theory rather than their own real-world experience. They often do more harm than good.

Selling information products via WSOs (or other methods) is simply another option for producing an income-stream from your Internet and marketing knowledge.

One of the benefits of adding the infoproduct model is that you have the opportunity to create the product once and resell over and over. After all, one of the downsides of many of the offline methods is having to continually do the work to get paid.

P.S. Let's not forget that it was a WSO by Andrew Cavanagh back in January 2008 that led to a ressurgence and refocus on the possibilities of using online knowledge with offline business owners. There would be a lot of Warriors worse off if that WSO had never been run!

Dedicated to your success,

*Shaun O'Reilly

[Robert_Rand]

Originally Posted by chrisnegro

In critical analysis, you have to compare apples to apples NOT apples to oranges and take the comparison in light of the ORIGINAL POST (see further posts where I address this above). Your comparing Donald Trump with people on this forum and he is in an entirely different season of his business (not a comparison what so ever).

By the way...just to illustrate this a little further....is DONALD TRUMP POUNDING THE WSO SECTION with his products and claims. No he uses others venues as the market is different and he has MILLIONS in the back, pays other people to market his products....and his business makes complete sense. Again apples to apples and oranges to oranges -- not to mention getting back to the original post.

There are posters who are taking what I said in a different vein and context. And again...I'm not against doing a WSO -- is the constant pounding of it with constant claims of riches that they made and secret strategies.



AHH....now we have something here. Good post Robert....the long term value of the list (if this is what they are doing when offering a WSO ---as some don't) could provide long term value and make perfect business sense. You have a winner her with this one (nice job).



Again, using critical analysis skills and taking into the context of the original post, I'm not counstantly pounding the WSO section and I'm giving this away for free AHH...see what critical analysis can do for you when you take your words and link it back to the original post. Its the constant pounding that makes you do a double take.

You can take anything anybody sais....AND IF YOU DON'T LINK IT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL post....its not a sound argument. Hey...I'm not against doing WSO's (don't take this out of context -- keep it in line with the original post).

P.S. I've had serveral people PM me private and totally noticed this too (not that this justifies anything) but there is just something that doesn't add up. That said...I'm all for entreprenurialship and if thats the business model people want to use -- GO FOR IT!

Respectfully,

Chris Negro

Fair points. I didn't mean to take any of your post out of context but I can see how I may have...

Quite honestly, I'm probably not as up to date as what's going on in the WSO section as I rarely check it nowadays - so some of your points could certainly be more accurate than I realize. My post was more directed at the overall generalization I felt you made about Info Marketing but again, I very well may have misinterpreted you...

Cheers!

[chrisnegro]

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

One of the benefits of adding the infoproduct model is that you have the opportunity to create the product once and resell over and over. After all, one of the downsides of many of the offline methods is having to continually do the work to get paid.Dedicated to your success,

*Shaun O'Reilly

Good points Shaun....but hey...unless you use your model and stick with one niche and wash rince repeat process. The work then becomes alot more limited. Then outsource it and pay someone to wash rince repeat for you.

Success to you,

Chris Negro

[Steven Smith]

Great post Chris,

I have often thought the same thing!

There have been many WSO's I have purchased and the ones I liked and found useful I left a positive comment in that WSO. I usually DO find ones I actually use in my business and the occasional WSO poster with consistent quality content has a customer for life with me.

I have absolutely NO doubt (in my mind) that anyone who CONSISTENTLY POST'S "offline WSO's" is most probably NOT making serious money at promoting their services to offline or local businesses.

WHY? The reasons are quite simple and they are (I believe) as follows:

- If they REALLY were "successfully" selling services to offline clients they simply wouldn't bother with WSO's for $xx or even $xxx.

- They would instead be far to busy dealing with clients calling them, or coming into their offices or presenting their services to them, or making sure the printer ink isn't running out before your next client arrives, along with all the other mundane but "time sucking" "day stealing" tasks that come with what running a REAL offline business entails.

The truth is, if your not making $xxxx-$xxxxxx Monthly running an offline consulting business you should buy most of the aforementioned WSO's read them soak up the information and always remember to take them with a grain of salt.

I do have other opinions on the subject, but I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, I just find it gratifying that others have had the same thought as me on this particular subject.

So, just to clarify:

Then there are those who are actually doing it but don't have the time to tell those who would like to be doing it and unfortunately don't have the time to show those who are not doing it how to do it but to be weary of those who say they are doing it and want your money to show you how to do it and might not know how to do it.

Cheers,

Steven

[tonyscott]

Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly

P.S. Let's not forget that it was a WSO by Andrew Cavanagh back in January 2008 that led to a ressurgence and refocus on the possibilities of using online knowledge with offline business owners. There would be a lot of Warriors worse off if that WSO had never been run!

Dedicated to your success,

*Shaun O'Reilly

Absolutely true Shaun. I picked up that WSO and set to work building the portal in my sig - bought a few more offline WSO's including your own. Took your advice on board and joined my local BNI a few months ago as a web designer.

I was until recently a mortgage broker and the last 18 months or so have been difficult financially. Without the foundations that I was able to lay thanks to David and yourself, I'd probably have gone under by now.

I'm not setting the world alight in terms of income, but I have a solid platform on which to build a real business. I enjoy meeting with business owners and introducing new marketing ideas to them. Yesterday I met with an inventor, today I'll be talking to a practice manager at a dental surgery.

The whole thing for me though remains about providing value for my clients in terms of what I implement for them and on an ongoing basis. The way I operate and the focus of what I offer is evolving over time as I meet with more people and get a real feel for what's needed out there.

So I'm really glad that some people shared their knowledge via WSO's and that i was able to take something useful from them. There will of course always be people that jump on the bandwagon, whatever the topic.

cheers

Tony

[MichaelHiles]

Chris, I've never posted a WSO in the offline space because I am busy making money in the offline space.

:-)