83 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
83 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Dear Promoters of WSO's.....

by VegasVince
58 replies
When you decide to edit your headline 2 read: LAST BUMP......please make sure in fact it is the LAST BUMP.

Otherwise, U are a FRAUD.

The guilty know who they are.


Stay Sucker Free....

And Stay Legendary,


Vegas Vince
#dear #promoters #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Mack
    Ahh good ol' false scarcity... one of my pet peeves.
    Signature
    Can't find the time to build links even though you know it's one of the #1 ranking factors?
    Discover the Turnkey Link Building System designed to get others to do the work for you (SOPs included)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808648].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
      Originally Posted by AffMack View Post

      Ahh good ol' false scarcity... one of my pet peeves.

      I'd say it's more then "false scarcity"....if you plan on coming on the WSO section and your headline reads last bump.....and it continues 2 bump....your WSO should be removed for FRAUD.

      Vince
      Signature
      Buy High. Sell Low. Bank $ Top Selling Product Ever re: Exploiting the Secret Billion Dollar Barter/Trade Industry!

      Save Lives. Make Money. Henry Ford would endorse this!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808657].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author timpears
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808666].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
          Originally Posted by timpears View Post

          I would like to see that, but you expect Alan to give up that $40 bump fee? Not a chance, it is all about the money.

          Alan has plenty of money. And while it might be "all about the money" , it's the WSO mods who need to do a better job of policing this under the radar way of smoking the suckers.

          VV
          Signature
          Buy High. Sell Low. Bank $ Top Selling Product Ever re: Exploiting the Secret Billion Dollar Barter/Trade Industry!

          Save Lives. Make Money. Henry Ford would endorse this!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808696].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author timpears
            Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

            Alan has plenty of money. And while it might be "all about the money" , it's the WSO mods who need to do a better job of policing this under the radar way of smoking the suckers.

            VV
            That was not the point I was trying to make. The WSO forum is there to generate revenue for both Alan and the people posting the threads. The last bump is nothing more than the regular false scarcity we see in many sales threads. So why would they not allow it as that cuts into the revenue and it is really nothing more than is already in so many sales letters. And Alan has Paul and who knows how many other employees he has to support from the revenues from WF. As best as I can figure.

            As much as we don't like it, it is just the regular hype associated with sales letters.

            Also: I wold appreciate it if you could delete the post where you quoted me, which I quoted. I got in a lot of trouble for that post, and I have deleted it. I guess it was offensive to the powers to be. I meant no harm by it, and I woujld have sent you a PM for this, but my War Room membership has been taken away because of that post, and I have to delete so many PM I don't have time right now as some need to be saved, so i can't PM now.

            So please delete the quote of me as it is objectionable to the management.
            Signature

            Tim Pears

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810183].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              Originally Posted by timpears View Post

              That was not the point I was trying to make.
              That's EXACTLY the point you were trying to make. You insinuated the $40 was worth more to Allen than his morals. "It is all about the money". There is no other way you could take what you said.

              Allen isn't silly. He knows that the success of marketplaces like the WSO forum is dependent on how much people trust said marketplace and thus they do their best to weed out all the trouble makers. The problem is many people like to sit here and complain about things BEFORE they reach out to the mods and give them a chance to do anything about it. Mods cannot be everywhere all the time. This is a community. If you see something wrong and you feel it needs to be dealt with then reach out to the mods personally and let them know. Just hit the report button and tell them the issue. If you choose not to do that then you have no one to blame but yourself.
              Signature

              .


              .

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810612].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            Interestingly enough you're complaining about some vendors methods while revealing that you think WF buyers are suckers? Hmmm

            I quoted this just to make sure what you've posted isn't changed by you.

            Lets not bring up your sig shall we?

            Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

            Alan has plenty of money. And while it might be "all about the money" , it's the WSO mods who need to do a better job of policing this under the radar way of smoking the suckers.

            VV
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812080].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RockStar87
    For sure the guilty know who they are!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808660].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author chuckles
    I agree.

    I would also like it if when legitimate questions are asked in a WSO thread they are not deleted by WF admins. For example I asked a question about a WSO presentation where the WSO promoter repeatedly said there "are only 4 copies left GO NOW GUYS and get your copy" (this was after his webinar which he started with saying he wasn't pitching anything and then pitched for 30 mins at the end) about how that was ethical or accurate. It was removed by WF admins. It was the same with others who asked similar questions.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808710].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Ben_Doyle
      Originally Posted by chuckles View Post

      I agree.

      I would also like it if when legitimate questions are asked in a WSO thread they are not deleted by WF admins. For example I asked a question about a WSO presentation where the WSO promoter repeatedly said there "are only 4 copies left GO NOW GUYS and get your copy" (this was after his webinar which he started with saying he wasn't pitching anything and then pitched for 30 mins at the end) about how that was ethical or accurate. It was removed by WF admins. It was the same with others who asked similar questions.
      I know EXACTLY who you mean. There was also a $4,000 'gift' in there if you stayed to the end.

      In fact, there was no gift at all.

      These should be banned...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809227].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author marketingva
        Originally Posted by Ben_Doyle View Post

        I know EXACTLY who you mean. There was also a $4,000 'gift' in there if you stayed to the end.

        In fact, there was no gift at all.

        These should be banned...
        Ben,

        Did you report this to a moderator? They have no way of knowing if promised bonuses are not included so it will help them if you report it.

        Bonnie
        Signature

        Magic Wand Author Services helps writers polish their manuscripts and connect to readers.
        http://www.mwauthorservices.com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810027].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
    @chuckles....

    It doesn't sound like you asked about the "product". If the "questions" have a belligerent tone to them or are not about the product itself, they are not allowed per forum rules. I almost always have such questions and comments removed from my sales threads.
    Signature
    Want a REAL Online Business That's Fun to Run?
    CLICK HERE FOR INFO
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808722].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
    This is NOT a rant about policy. It's more a rant about certain promoters who forget a guy like me is running a WSO for over 3 months now....and I pay attention.

    And I aint no fool.

    I personally have spotted numerous "last bumps" that are bogus......and while they don't hurt my sales.....it's rather B.S.

    VV
    Signature
    Buy High. Sell Low. Bank $ Top Selling Product Ever re: Exploiting the Secret Billion Dollar Barter/Trade Industry!

    Save Lives. Make Money. Henry Ford would endorse this!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808728].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      I treat this forum like a forum. As such, I opine on different subjects and threads for the mere sake of opining, dog in the fight or not. What I see here is much ado about nothing. Further, concerning the two questioning moderation and a lack thereof, I concur with attaching words like 'ungrateful' to much of this.

      I am not prone to moderator ass kissing and have no problems openly disagreeing with mods in threads, but gimme a break on this stuff. I don't know and am not asking, but I hope like hell Paul gets some type of financial compensation for his work here. This is one of the busiest forums on the internet, and anyone taking on the task that Paul does damn near has a full time job with it all, at times.

      VegasVince, one of the problems with accusing someone of being a liar, or a FRAUD, as it were, is that to be 100% certain of that to state it as fact is that you also need to be a mind reader. Maybe the person is a bit touched and keeps changing their mind. Not probable, but possible. Sure, we all know, in the assumptive sort of way, but to take action like that off of assumptions can become less black and white.

      You portray the 'wise guy' thing in one of your WSOs. Follow that line back across the ocean, linguistically, and you end up with nice phrases like, Caveat Emptor.

      There is nothing wrong with all of us, WF owner included, acknowledging that to be a fact of life and a wise adage. That includes EVERY marketplace, and to demand the WF be the one place that manages to make that Latin phrase meaningless is unrealistic and ungrateful, IMO.

      Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

      It's more a rant about certain promoters who forget a guy like me is running a WSO for over 3 months now....and I pay attention.
      Are you referring to the 3 month old WSO of yours with this graphic?:

      Attachment 19431

      And I aint no fool.
      Neither am I, which is where all that adoin' I mentioned comes into play. While you may argue the methods differ and that someone is crossing the line, well, Vince, I gotta tell ya buddy. This Mountain Tick knucklehead doesn't see any difference in what you are doing and what you are complaining about.

      The "Last Bump" and "Limited Time" copy are designed and implemented to do the exact same thing. Hell, you even bump that copy up a notch by making it a big, red graphic, complete with arrows pointing towards this:

      Attachment 19430

      Where you do a couple things. You change colors to green, taking advantage of the social conventions we have (most notably stoplights), where green means "GO!!!". Further, you have changed to first person in the text, so a person reading it has to read 'I'. You do this in an attempt to subtly convince your potential customers that it is indeed they that have made the decision to give you money, umm ... I mean ... YES! Vince I Am Ready To Start Raking In My Own Profits Exploiting Barter. You won't even write, in your copy, YES! Vince, I am ready to give you money for your product, you convinced me. No talk of money, don't think about it - just do it; green means go, afterall.

      Those two graphics, and the associated copy are designed to achieve the same thing - Induce a feeling of urgency and potential loss. Better act now, customer, for if you wait until tomorrow, you may be SOL. BUY NOW!, for this is a Limited Time offer ... errr ... this is the Last Bump.

      I am not saying either one of you are doing anything morally or ethically wrong, but I gotta tell ya Vince, I don't see any real difference in what you are complaining about and what you are doing yourself.

      And VegasVince, it's real, real easy to prove me wrong on that - all ya gotta do is be transparent and forthright with your potential customers and actually put a date on that limited offer. To let them know how much time they have to decide whether or not they want to give you money ... err ... Rake In Profits Exploiting (this word is very intentionally chosen and is copy-code for generating a sense and feeling of Easy Money/Get Rich Quick in a potential customer) Barter.

      But you will not add that piece of information to your WSO, to let your customers know your intentions with 'how long they have before they are screwed and missed the Golden Goose'. Well, unless it now becomes a matter of cutting yer nose to spite your face now.

      Just a little of the pot calling the kettle black and some undue and, indeed, ungrateful, shots being taken at mods and site owners, implying a complete lack of capabilities and ethics.
      Signature
      One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

      - Seldom Seen Smith
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810158].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Christopher,
        one of the problems with accusing someone of being a liar, or a FRAUD, as it were, is that to be 100% certain of that to state it as fact is that you also need to be a mind reader.
        Thank you. I have tried to explain this to people over and over, and it seems to be beyond most folks.

        There are often situations in which the outcome could as easily be the result of incompetence, overselling one's time, or unexpected problems as deliberate bad intent. In those circumstances, it's unwise to throw words like "scam" or "fraud" around. Not only can they unjustly damage a person who may just have had a problem beyond their control, they could get the accuser sued.

        As far as using the phrase "last bump," that's pretty clear. If there are no qualifiers ("this month" or "this year" or "before the price increase"), it should not be bumped again. Ever.

        If it is, the statement is a lie. By itself, I'm not sure it would qualify as material misrepresentation, though.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810218].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Tim,

          I have reinstated your War Room membership. It was necessary to revoke that to temporarily turn off your signature. Consider that your only warning on this.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810236].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author timpears
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Tim,

            I have reinstated your War Room membership. It was necessary to revoke that to temporarily turn off your signature. Consider that your only warning on this.


            Paul
            thank you. I meant nothing by my post. I tried to explain what I was meaning by my last post here. I am sorry. I guess I didn't explain myself well in the post in question.
            Signature

            Tim Pears

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810239].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Tim,

              It would probably be a good idea to stop digging now. You're just making the hole deeper.

              I have closed one offer here in the past week for using fake scarcity. I've also warned a seller in the past few days who left a "time limited" offer open, probably by simply forgetting to delete the payment buttons.

              We don't condone that stuff. When it's reported, we deal with it.

              We deal with it if we happen to see it on our own, too, but that's much less likely than if the problems are brought to our attention.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810281].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author chuckles
    @wolfmmiii thanks - I think you have just confirmed to me what I already knew. Now I know I can misrepresent a product with false scarcity etc I am tempted to start my own WSO in 2014!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808729].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by chuckles View Post

      @wolfmmiii thanks - I think you have just confirmed to me what I already knew. Now I know I can misrepresent a product with false scarcity etc I am tempted to start my own WSO in 2014!
      False scarcity happens all the time. I don't agree with it. When you see it, report it to the mods. Taking things into your own hands will almost always end badly.
      Signature
      Want a REAL Online Business That's Fun to Run?
      CLICK HERE FOR INFO
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8808738].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Yeah, I've seen this several times as well. Take screenshots and report them to the mods.

    Any misleading advertisers should be booted.
    Signature

    .


    .

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809013].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Vince,
      if you plan on coming on the WSO section and your headline reads last bump.....and it continues 2 bump....your WSO should be removed for FRAUD.
      If we can prove it, it WILL be removed. We don't comment on why things are removed, generally, but we know.

      Tim,
      I would like to see that, but you expect Alan to give up that $40 bump fee? Not a chance, it is all about the money.
      Allen (note the spelling) has allowed you to use this place to raise money for your health issues. I have personally run interference for months with people who bitched about the posts being bumped over and over. A lot of the members have put their reps on the line to help you out. And you spout this baseless garbage in response?

      I am sick to death of people who think it's okay to leech off Allen's work for their own benefit while slamming him with ridiculous and unfounded comments like this.

      Leave before you're removed, you ungrateful [edited].

      Yeah. That's how I really feel about it.

      Vince,
      And while it might be "all about the money," it's the WSO mods who need to do a better job of policing this under the radar way of smoking the suckers.
      Report problems, they get dealt with. Bitch without reporting, they usually won't.

      Make snarky comments like this without some specifics in reports, and you're just another freaking troll.

      I loved ya, Vinnie. Right up until this.

      chuckles,
      I think you have just confirmed to me what I already knew. Now I know I can misrepresent a product with false scarcity etc I am tempted to start my own WSO in 2014!
      Say good night, Gracie. Second time is permanent.

      Change in policy, goys and birls: You have a problem with a specific offer, report it. We'll do what we always do. Check into it and deal with it according to policy.

      If you just want to gripe about imagined things without any basis or specifics, go away. BS generic shots at Allen in his house will just get deleted from now on.

      That comment from Tim Pears upthread is all the proof I need to know that we've been way too freaking tolerant for way too freaking long. And if you have a problem with that...

      Too. Damned. Bad.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809184].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author VinnyBock
        I have to admit I've been guilty of this but not with deception being my intention. For a lot of product creators the wso forum is the 1st stop for a product while its continuously improved/added to/worked on and sometimes that added work takes longer than anticipated & so, sometimes there's time for an additional bump while a product is finished up. At least that's my story ...

        I think I could find more shady stuff than that goin on...
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809235].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by VinnyBock View Post

          I have to admit I've been guilty of this but not with deception being my intention. For a lot of product creators the wso forum is the 1st stop for a product while its continuously improved/added to/worked on and sometimes that added work takes longer than anticipated & so, sometimes there's time for an additional bump while a product is finished up. At least that's my story ...

          I think I could find more shady stuff than that goin on...
          Vinny, I got two words for ya...

          Be Transparent

          If you have a legit reason for an extra bump, spell it out, either in the WSO post itself or in the FAQ post that many sellers reserve just below it.

          Especially if it truly is a Warrior Special Offer - a deal that will not be available to general public after launch. You're giving Warriors an extra shot at a good deal they won't get later.

          Just make sure that is the last bump before launch, or Vince will send the boys after you...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809267].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author VinnyBock
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Vinny, I got two words for ya...

            Be Transparent
            Point taken, thanks for the advice John
            Signature

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809282].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author 4DayWeekend
            From a copy point of view I don't really understand the "last bump" thing...

            I don't find it enticing in the slightest...

            I'm not going to pick up a product just because it's not going to appear at the top of the WSO forum again...

            And I don't really see why any other sensible buyer would either...

            I understand scarcity, but as scarcity approach, the last bump isn't a method that I'd ever use or deem to be effective...

            It doesn't bother me though, it's one of many fake scarcity methods that you see on a daily basis. Just plain ol marketing.
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8809380].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ebbi
    Regarding the "last bump" I don't really think there is any fraud going on!
    If it says "last bump for this wso" or "last bump for ever" it's a different story...
    This could be the last bump for this week or until his birthday which is tomorrow

    Also, if the creator keeps bumping it up with this headline it must be working
    for him/her so in my honest opinion I would say go for it!

    But... promising a bonus and not delivering on that promise should be reported!!
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810054].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

      Regarding the "last bump" I don't really think there is any fraud going on!
      If it says "last bump for this wso" or "last bump for ever" it's a different story...
      This could be the last bump for this week or until his birthday which is tomorrow

      Also, if the creator keeps bumping it up with this headline it must be working
      for him/her so in my honest opinion I would say go for it!

      But... promising a bonus and not delivering on that promise should be reported!!
      Without a "qualifier" attached to "last bump, such as "last bump for this month" or whatever, then last bump means last bump. Trying to suggest otherwise only serves to rationalize and justify deceit.
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810357].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ebbi
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Without a "qualifier" attached to "last bump, such as "last bump for this month" or whatever, then last bump means last bump. Trying to suggest otherwise only serves to rationalize and justify deceit.
        Deceit:
        "the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth."

        Sounds pretty bad when you put it like that!

        But in my opinion when this is used in a wso title to get few more people to
        click your link there's NOTHING wrong about it! It's just a call to action and
        if it works, go for it!

        If this is the main keyword through out your sales letter then I can agree it's
        not something you should practice.

        AND I'm pretty sure 90% of every email you get from these top marketers
        include a "deceit" in the subject line
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810516].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

          Deceit:
          "the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth."

          Sounds pretty bad when you put it like that!

          But in my opinion when this is used in a wso title to get few more people to
          click your link there's NOTHING wrong about it! It's just a call to action and
          if it works, go for it!

          If this is the main keyword through out your sales letter then I can agree it's
          not something you should practice.

          AND I'm pretty sure 90% of every email you get from these top marketers
          include a "deceit" in the subject line
          You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't see it the same way. If someone is using "last bump" - all the while knowing it's not the last bump - that is "misrepresenting the truth" - the definition of deceit as you posted it. I don't know what else to call it.

          Rationalizing away what it is may make the person doing this feel better about what they're doing, but very few customers/potential customers are going to buy into that rationalization if they know what's going on. Most folks don't like being played for a fool. A call to action doesn't have to be deceptive to be effective.
          Signature

          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810677].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
          Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

          Deceit:
          "the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth."

          Sounds pretty bad when you put it like that!

          But in my opinion when this is used in a wso title to get few more people to
          click your link there's NOTHING wrong about it! It's just a call to action and
          if it works, go for it!

          If this is the main keyword through out your sales letter then I can agree it's
          not something you should practice.

          AND I'm pretty sure 90% of every email you get from these top marketers
          include a "deceit" in the subject line
          It's a lie, plain and simple. If you're okay with lying to sell your stuff it's good to know that up front. :rolleyes:
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810710].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author brutecky
            Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

            It's a lie, plain and simple. If you're okay with lying to sell your stuff it's good to know that up front. :rolleyes:
            Just wondering how many are left on that link in your sig? You know the one for the PLR that has a 'limited quantity'? Which links to a sales page that has a PayPal button on it? Im also wondering exactly how your tracking to make sure that people dont buy over the 'limited quantity' I mean its in your sig, and you have thousands of posts on the WF? So how can you be sure that hundreds of people on here dont click the link and buy it right now and go over the limit, since its a limited quantity? How can you know that you wont go over the limit considering your using PayPal only for the check out?

            Get my point?
            Signature
            Join over 7500 marketers on my Facebook group and also get tons of free tutorials and software to help you with your business.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810716].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
              Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

              Just wondering how many are left on that link in your sig? You know the one for the PLR that has a 'limited quantity'? Which links to a sales page that has a PayPal button on it? Im also wondering exactly how your tracking to make sure that people dont buy over the 'limited quantity' I mean its in your sig, and you have thousands of posts on the WF? So how can you be sure that hundreds of people on here dont click the link and buy it right now and go over the limit, since its a limited quantity? How can you know that you wont go over the limit considering your using PayPal only for the check out?

              Get my point?
              How do I know how many buy it? Are you serious? I count the number of payments I get from paypal. When I've sold the limit I pull the offer. Get my point?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810723].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Ebbi
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I don't see it the same way. If someone is using "last bump" - all the while knowing it's not the last bump - that is "misrepresenting the truth" - the definition of deceit as you posted it. I don't know what else to call it.

            Rationalizing away what it is may make the person doing this feel better about what they're doing, but very few customers/potential customers are going to buy into that rationalization if they know what's going on. Most folks don't like being played for a fool. A call to action doesn't have to be deceptive to be effective.
            I see your point and I agree!
            Regarding being used as a call to action in a wso title I still don't see
            anything wrong with it

            Also, what is your opinion on 90% of email marketers doing this in their
            subject lines?

            Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

            It's a lie, plain and simple. If you're okay with lying to sell your stuff it's good to know that up front. :rolleyes:
            Just clear it up! I have never done this, and never will! Not my style....
            But I just don't see anything wrong with it in a wso title
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8811679].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

              I see your point and I agree!
              Regarding being used as a call to action in a wso title I still don't see
              anything wrong with it

              Also, what is your opinion on 90% of email marketers doing this in their
              subject lines?



              Just clear it up! I have never done this, and never will! Not my style....
              But I just don't see anything wrong with it in a wso title
              Quick question?

              If it's okay to lie in a subject line to get more clicks, where is it NOT okay to lie to get more actions? Just curious about where it is okay to lie and where it's not...
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8811866].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
              Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

              Also, what is your opinion on 90% of email marketers doing this in their subject lines?
              A lie is a lie no matter where it happens and no matter in what format.

              Mark
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8811891].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Ebbi
                Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                Quick question?

                If it's okay to lie in a subject line to get more clicks, where is it NOT okay to lie to get more actions? Just curious about where it is okay to lie and where it's not...
                You are taking this to literally my friend! This is something you could call
                a white lie!

                Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

                A lie is a lie no matter where it happens and no matter in what format.

                Mark
                I guess we are all guilty! How often have you told a family member that you
                would do something and then forgot about it or just wasn't able to do it!

                That's a lie if I understand you!

                Maybe this was supposed to be the last bump because he didn't think he
                would get more volume to his wso... but then frank kern offered a similar
                program so people start looking for cheaper alternatives.

                So the wso starts doing well but just because he said this was the last
                bump he/she should stop attending to a hot WSO...
                Signature
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812089].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    Originally Posted by VegasVince View Post

    When you decide to edit your headline 2 read: LAST BUMP......please make sure in fact it is the LAST BUMP.
    1) Actually this should not matter at all. As a buyer it should make no difference if its the last bump the 2nd to last bump or if there will be a million more bumps.

    People should make there buying decision on only one thing, the quality of the offer. However people dont do that at all. If you want promoters to stop doing these kinds of things then I would suggest that buyers stop buying on hype and only buy based on the weight of the offer.

    2) If it was a good solid product and offer before the seller indicated 'last bump' then by him bumping it again he is actually choosing to continue providing a good solid offer. In which case he did a good thing. If it was a garbage offer before he indicated last bump, then saying last bump should mean nothing since why would you buy a poor offer just because its the last bump?

    3) Finally if it really bothers you when people do this. Simply dont purchase. The Warrior form is a market place and like ALL market places, it is controlled (at least to a large degree) by the buyers. Simply 'vote' not to have this offer show anymore. Vote with your dollars. Stop buying and you will see how quickly the seller stops bumping (because its not profitable).
    Signature
    Join over 7500 marketers on my Facebook group and also get tons of free tutorials and software to help you with your business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810691].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author brutecky
    As I said how many are left? I noticed you failed to answer that.

    Also you DO NOT get my point. Since you have thousands of links (one on ever post you have made) a 'counting method' is not viable, there is no way of preventing more people than your 'limit' from buying between 'counts'. As such there can be no hard fast limit. Your sales page says that your only selling 20 of them. Lets say your at 12 right now, What is to stop 10 or 15 or 20 etc. people from buying in the next hour, or even in the next 10 minutes thus making you a dishonest person? Or even lets not assume any sales, whats to stop 50 people from buying right away thus making you a dishonest person? Nothing not with that counting method.

    THAT was my point. Now I didnt make this point to 'call you out' or anything, only to try to get people to understand that sometimes dishonesty is not intentional. For example sometimes a WSO seller might honestly think that this is his 'last bump' but situations change. Im sure this is not the case with everyone, or even with most people, but the over all theme here on this thread has been a black / white view, if you say last bump and them bump again ever your a fraud. This black / white view is defiantly not sufficient to cover every seller, a look at the person and there reputation as a whole is required before accusing them of being fraudulent.

    Such as if 100 people decided to click your sellers link and buy right now before you can 'count the payments'. I would not consider you a fraud at all. Hopefully Im making my point better this time

    PS) I choose to make this point with you as an example because of your post "Its a lie plain and simple" .. a black / white view. Not to pick on your or anything, so please dont be offended.
    Signature
    Join over 7500 marketers on my Facebook group and also get tons of free tutorials and software to help you with your business.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810762].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
      Originally Posted by brutecky View Post

      As I said how many are left? I noticed you failed to answer that.

      Also you DO NOT get my point. Since you have thousands of links (one on ever post you have made) a 'counting method' is not viable, there is no way of preventing more people than your 'limit' from buying between 'counts'. As such there can be no hard fast limit.

      THAT was my point. Now I didnt make this point to 'call you out' or anything, only to try to get people to understand that sometimes dishonesty is not intentional.
      I have no idea what you're talking about. I know exactly how many I've sold and how many are left at any time. If I somehow sold more than the limit, which would have to happen with me away from the computer, I'd refund sales beyond the limit and then pull the offer. This ain't that hard, man.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810768].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author brutecky
        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        I know exactly how many I've sold and how many are left at any time.
        So you know when your getting sales in your sleep? When your in the shower? When your doing .. other things? Hmm.. I think not. You do not know how many you sold at any time. This statement is silly.

        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        If I somehow sold more than the limit, which would have to happen with me away from the computer, I'd refund sales beyond the limit and then pull the offer. This ain't that hard, man.
        Which does not change the fact that you still SOLD this PLR to more than 20 people, it also does not change the fact that more than 20 people would have this PLR since giving a refund would not stop these people who bought it from having it still.

        So you, buy your own definition would be a liar (though not by mine). Now Im sorry that you are not understanding what Im saying or perhaps your just feeling defensive, either way Ill let you have the last word then we can drop this discussion, its quite clear that nothing even remotely resembling an intelligent dialog will happen.
        Signature
        Join over 7500 marketers on my Facebook group and also get tons of free tutorials and software to help you with your business.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810790].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

        I have no idea what you're talking about.
        He is saying that if you sell even one item over, even if you refund it, that you lied. Which technically it would be.

        Garrie
        Signature
        Screw You, NameCheap!
        $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:
        SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810868].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MikeFriedman
    Bruteky,

    You can easily set a quantity limit in PayPal. It won't let anyone buy one the limit is reached.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8810844].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I personally really don't care much about the last bump scenario and I've bought from people who use somewhat dubious scarcity and don't think any less of them for it, provided all else is fine with the offer. If customers are happy and the product provides good value for the money, that's more important to me than a commonly used marketing tactic.

    I care a lot more about fake income shots, fake testimonials, and fake income claims. I also care more about creating fake scarcity, like saying "limited edition" ... only such and such will be sold and then going on to selling as many as you can, and I'm not referring to anyone in this thread.

    It is so easy to report a listing if you think there's something wrong with it, even if you're not certain it's wrong. Just report your concerns and let a mod do their work. The majority of people on this forum never use the report button to report anything at all, but they feel free to use the Post New Thread button to bitch about stuff they don't like. Why is that? Like making a big public bruhaha out of it or really just would like to get some clarification on a problem? I rather suspect some prefer to create the drama rather than solve problems.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8811580].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ajbarnes777
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I rather suspect some prefer to create the drama rather than solve problems.
      Totally agree. This is something I live by online and offline in my everyday life. Instead of dramatizing a situation... fix it.

      My family has a tendency to do this all the time (the holiday season is a prime example)! Maybe that's why I'm so sensitive to it...
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8811596].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    What's wrong with Vince's sig? (I'm actually curious here) I see nothing that's a problem. His course IS the best barter course out there, and this is from someone that was in the first version on here. Vince has always been a standup guy and he's a hell of a lot of fun on his radio show.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812102].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      What's wrong with Vince's sig? (I'm actually curious here) I see nothing that's a problem. His course IS the best barter course out there, and this is from someone that was in the first version on here. Vince has always been a standup guy and he's a hell of a lot of fun on his radio show.
      While I am not doubting that Vince is a stand up guy and has a good product I think the issue being raised about his signature is that it currently says...

      "Best Selling" "Most Critically Acclaimed"

      Not saying I have an issue with it - but it does raise some eyebrows. I did visit the sales page and I didn't see enough social proof that I would feel comfortable making the same type of statement for my own product.

      But again that doesn't make it wrong - he might have won an award from a trade magazine or something and hasn't updated the sales page (or I missed it).

      Cheers,
      Coby
      Signature
      .
      .
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812139].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Coby View Post

        While I am not doubting that Vince is a stand up guy and has a good product I think the issue being raised about his signature is that it currently says...

        "Best Selling" "Most Critically Acclaimed"

        Not saying I have an issue with it - but it does raise some eyebrows. I did visit the sales page and I didn't see enough social proof that I would feel comfortable making the same type of statement for my own product.

        But again that doesn't make it wrong - he might have won an award from a trade magazine or something and hasn't updated the sales page (or I missed it).

        Cheers,
        Coby
        lol ... Here comes the nit picking. Best Selling and Most Critically Acclaimed. Wooo ... heavy stuff there. You all would do best to concentrate on people who are really scamming people out of dollars instead of picking apart sales pages for ordinary marketing terms. One person here has already said his product is great, and from what I know of Vince, I don't doubt it for a minute.

        Anyone here ever call in sick when they weren't?
        Anyone call up family/friends with a little white lie to get out of seeing them?
        Anyone ever use the dog ate my homework excuse?

        You get the picture. Anyone here who says they've never told a lie, is lying. There are some little white lies that really aren't worth getting your panties in a bunch over, and then there are lies that scam people out of hard earned money. If you concentrated on the most important of those two, the forum would be a better place (not that it isn't already a great place).
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812158].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          Ah yes but when one starts pointing fingers what happens next?

          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          lol ... Here comes the nit picking. Best Selling and Most Critically Acclaimed. Wooo ... heavy stuff there. You all would do best to concentrate on people who are really scamming people out of dollars instead of picking apart sales pages for ordinary marketing terms. One person here has already said his product is great, and from what I know of Vince, I don't doubt it for a minute.

          Anyone here ever call in sick when they weren't?
          Anyone call up family/friends with a little white lie to get out of seeing them?
          Anyone ever use the dog ate my homework excuse?

          You get the picture. Anyone here who says they've never told a lie, is lying. There are some little white lies that really aren't worth getting your panties in a bunch over, and then there are lies that scam people out of hard earned money. If you concentrated on the most important of those two, the forum would be a better place (not that it isn't already a great place).
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812177].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Coby
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          lol ... Here comes the nit picking. Best Selling and Most Critically Acclaimed. Wooo ... heavy stuff there. You all would do best to concentrate on people who are really scamming people out of dollars instead of picking apart sales pages for ordinary marketing terms. One person here has already said his product is great, and from what I know of Vince, I don't doubt it for a minute.

          Anyone here ever call in sick when they weren't?
          Anyone call up family/friends with a little white lie to get out of seeing them?
          Anyone ever use the dog ate my homework excuse?

          You get the picture. Anyone here who says they've never told a lie, is lying. There are some little white lies that really aren't worth getting your panties in a bunch over, and then there are lies that scam people out of hard earned money. If you concentrated on the most important of those two, the forum would be a better place (not that it isn't already a great place).
          Hey Suzanne,

          I respect your opinion, am a past customer of yours and we normally have similar lines of thinking. (and I like your tats).

          As I stated in my post (that you quoted) I don't have an issue with this myself. I was simply answering the question of another person in the thread.

          I agree that if this is the worst thing that happened in our industry (someone claiming to be "critically acclaimed") then our industry would have a much better reputation.

          But - where do we draw the line?

          At what point does it become a lie?

          What determines when a product is "critically acclaimed"? To me, it means it should receive some type of endorsement from a large well known company in the same industry (like a trade magazine, radio show or talk show) and be publicly commended for their work. (and since we don't know if this is true or not - it naturally leads to some doubt).

          Obviously this is marketing and you have to "sell" your product - but don't make assumptions and jump on me when I clearly stated that I had no issue with it.

          Happy Holidays.

          Cheers,
          Coby

          P.S. I think Vince's signature was only mentioned since to some people it could fall into the same category as the thing he is complaining about. Whereas a lie is a lie - white, black or yellow - it's still a lie.
          Signature
          .
          .
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812190].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author joseph7384
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          You get the picture. Anyone here who says they've never told a lie, is lying. There are some little white lies that really aren't worth getting your panties in a bunch over,
          Although I agree, what about if we don't wear panties and have boxer briefs instead?
          I don't recall them ever bunching up, lol just kidding.

          Merry Christmas to all.
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812199].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

            Ah yes but when one starts pointing fingers what happens next?
            Quite true. That's why the report button is a much more efficient way of dealing with questions about WSOs or posts.

            Originally Posted by Coby View Post

            Hey Suzanne,

            I respect your opinion, am a past customer of yours and we normally have similar lines of thinking.

            As I stated in my post (that you quoted) I don't have an issue with this myself. I was simply answering the question of another person in the thread.

            I agree that if this is the worst thing that happened in our industry (someone claiming to be "critically acclaimed") then our industry would have a much better reputation.

            But - where do we draw the line?

            At what point does it become a lie?

            What determines when a product is "critically acclaimed"? To me, it means it should receive some type of endorsement from a large well known company in the same industry (like a trade magazine, radio show or talk show) and be publicly commended for their work. (and since we don't know if this is true or not - it naturally leads to some doubt).

            Obviously this is marketing and you have to "sell" your product - but don't make assumptions and jump on me when I clearly stated that I had no issue with it.

            Happy Holidays.

            Cheers,
            Coby

            P.S. I think Vince's signature was only mentioned since to some people it could fall into the same category as the thing he is complaining about. Whereas a lie is a lie - white, black or yellow - it's still a lie.
            Not jumping on you ... just voicing an opinion. Here's where I draw the line with marketing hype or little white lies in copy ... when it harms the buyers. If the product is a great product and people are happy with it, saying "Last Bump" doesn't harm the buyers at all. Saying "This has made me $50K in the last week and you can do the same" or similar claims or fake testimonials that make it appear that real customers are very happy with the product ... well, that's harmful. People buy with an expectation that it is true, and will most likely feel cheated when they find out that it isn't true.

            Originally Posted by joseph7384 View Post

            Although I agree, what about if we don't wear panties and have boxer briefs instead?
            I don't recall them ever bunching up, lol just kidding.

            Merry Christmas to all.
            lol ... Merry Christmas to you as well. Maybe Santa will bring you some panties.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812214].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Coby
              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

              Quite true. That's why the report button is a much more efficient way of dealing with questions about WSOs or posts.
              I agree. In fact I never made a comment one way or the other regarding the "last bump" issue. I agree more people should be reporting posts rather than stirring up drama.

              Not jumping on you ... just voicing an opinion. Here's where I draw the line with marketing hype or little white lies in copy ... when it harms the buyers. If the product is a great product and people are happy with it, saying "Last Bump" doesn't harm the buyers at all. Saying "This has made me $50K in the last week and you can do the same" or similar claims or fake testimonials that make it appear that real customers are very happy with the product ... well, that's harmful. People buy with an expectation that it is true, and will most likely feel cheated when they find out that it isn't true.
              I agree as well - but how do we know the "little white lie(s)" doesn't harm the buyer?

              I mean I can say my product is the best ever and I could probably talk a few JV buddies into saying the same thing and probably even have them make a video testimonial about how great it was, but it could be total crap. This was very common on Clickbank before they "cracked down".

              (disclaimer: I'm not saying Vince's product isn't great. I'm just talking in generalities.)

              I definitely agree that this type of "marketing" is the least of our worries in the IM space, but if we want our industry to shed the "scammy" image that it has we have to personally take steps to avoid "white lies" and set a precedent for others to follow.

              I personally don't like to use any misinformation or stretching of the truth when selling my own products. You don't have to "hype up" or "stretch the truth" to sell products. A good product will sell itself.

              The problem with the IM space is there are to many people following the herd and afraid to stand up and be themselves and think they must do this type of marketing to be successful. They don't need to market this way and the sooner we reinforce that the sooner our industry will take a step in the right direction in the eyes of the general public.

              False scarcity is a lie. White lies are a lie. Blatant lies are a lie. Yes, one is worse that the others and two of those are normally tolerated....

              But to compare this to the "real world" - for example an injury.

              A paper cut could be considered an injury (and they normally aren't pleasant). Is a paper cut the end of the world? Nope! Does it pale in comparison to a broken arm? Absolutely! But they both still hurt! (maybe a lame comparison, but you get the idea)

              Merry Christmas

              Cheers,
              Coby
              Signature
              .
              .
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812256].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      Vince has always been a standup guy and he's a hell of a lot of fun on his radio show.
      Greetings. If I may ask, when and where can his radio show be found? TYVM. Cheers. - Frank
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812280].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Greetings. If I may ask, when and where can his radio show be found? TYVM. Cheers. - Frank
        Right here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vegasvince
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812292].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Here's where I draw the line with marketing hype or little white lies in copy ... when it harms the buyers.
          Here's where we get into the meat of the thing.

          If I tell someone they should buy a blueprint for solar powered litter boxes because I have red hair, that's a lie. I don't. But it's not material to the product, and has no effect on the customer whatsoever. (It's also a ridiculous example, but it makes the point without looking like I'm pointing at anyone in the discussion.)

          If I offer to sell 10 copies (and no more) with private label rights and I intentionally sell 100, that's material misrepresentation. The customer is buying on the premise of competition being limited in a very specific way, that is not the case, and I knew it when I made those sales.

          The same is true for false income claims or unsubstantiated promises of specific results one can expect when using a product. Some people will say that the buyer should know that not everyone will achieve theose results, but the fact remains that they buy expecting a resonable probability of doing so. If there is no basis for the claims, or if the results promised are not typical, that qualifies as material misrepresentation.

          One is a harmless lie, but still a lie. A matter of personal ethics.

          The other is illegal.


          Paul

          Note: Still not a lawyer. Speak with qualified counsel if needed. Do not operate heavy machinery under the influence. Blah. Yak. Etc.
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812352].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Ebbi View Post

          I see your point and I agree!
          Regarding being used as a call to action in a wso title I still don't see
          anything wrong with it
          I don't see anything wrong with it either as long as it's an honest call to action. I've put last bump in the WSO subject line before, but I haven't bumped the thread after that and don't plan to. I'm not saying there could never be exceptions, but as a general rule, in my opinion things work out best when you keep your word.

          Also, what is your opinion on 90% of email marketers doing this in their
          subject lines?
          Same, as long as it's an honest tactic I have no problem with using scarcity. I've used it myself, usually offering my newsletter readers a discount until the next issue. But when the next issue comes out, the offer is pulled. It doesn't have to end because there's no limit to digital copies of something, but it ends because I said it would. Offering the limited-time discount is a scarcity tactic I use to encourage people to buy now.
          Signature

          Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[8812371].message }}

Trending Topics