What if musicians took on the "Product Launch" Concept ??

[Steve Longoria]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Back in the early nineties, when we used to daydream of the impending promise of the Internet "leveling the playing field", who knew that would actually mean bringing the whole record industry down to OUR level...

HA!

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

-- Hunter S. Thompson

one of my all time favorite quotes there buddy... good ol' hunter

[Michael Taylor]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Hmmm maybe a paid Fan Membership site

I know you're joking, but this wouldn't work for a musician's entertainment site. Fans already expect free access...just look at music piracy.

For a musician site, you have to publish a blog. Twitter. Facebook.

Have plenty of fresh video, podcasts of practice sessions, have the singer talk about what the lyrics mean, what was going on during recording sessions and concerts, and post tons of pics to a photo gallery.

Real fans spend lots of time poring over all this stuff because that's what fans do. They absorb as much as they can when it comes to their favorite group. And the more they do it, the more invested they are in that group. But if you have a half empty website, there's no center of gravity...no place they can call their own.

As far as making money...sell schwag. Bumper stickers, key chains, T-shirts, flags, CDs, DVDs, photo books (there are some online companies that will take your online photo submissions and turn them into a book), posters, trading cards, and other memorabilia.

[Steve Longoria]

Originally Posted by dndoseller

Sure it works awesome, and sometimes I think I am one of about a dozen musicians on the Web using IM tactics (see music site in sig).

I have literally not seen one musician using longtail SEO. Sure lots of cheezy MP3 sites do, but no actual musicians or the labels promoting their acts.

this is true. any band i advise, i suggest they start a blog based around their band, and talk about everything happening with their band. releases, pics of shows, etc. ALSO, i tell them not to stop there. since UPDATED content is king, i recommend they also blog about bands that they like. and of course at the end of each blog post is a call to download the main bands album for free.

so this way they get traffic from people looking for other bands similar to theirs, and since they're updating more frequently, they'll retain more of that traffic. they're also more likely to get word of mouth traffic, because EVEN IF A VISITOR DOESN'T LIKE THEIR BANDS MUSIC, THEY MAY LIKE OTHER BANDS MENTIONED IN THE BLOG.

sorry for shouting:P

oh, and stumbleupon is GREAT for exposing music!

[Steve Longoria]

Originally Posted by Michael Taylor

I know you're joking, but this wouldn't work for a musician's entertainment site. Fans already expect free access...just look at music piracy.

For a musician site, you have to publish a blog. Twitter. Facebook.

Have plenty of fresh video, podcasts of practice sessions, have the singer talk about what the lyrics mean, what was going on during recording sessions and concerts, and post tons of pics to a photo gallery.

Real fans spend lots of time poring over all this stuff because that's what fans do. They absorb as much as they can when it comes to their favorite group. And the more they do it, the more invested they are in that group. But if you have a half empty website, there's no center of gravity...no place they can call their own.

As far as making money...sell schwag. Bumper stickers, key chains, T-shirts, flags, CDs, DVDs, photo books (there are some online companies that will take your online photo submissions and turn them into a book), posters, trading cards, and other memorabilia.

your dead on!

[John Durham]

Originally Posted by gyar29

This fount of information has been here 24 hours and has had only 380 some odd views. While there is another thread where the OP is trumpeting that they made $6500 bucks in 50 milliseconds or some such bull**** and it has almost 700 views in a lot less time.The info being extemporaneously thrown around in this thread is info that many of the members here need to take a gander at. Regardless of what their trying to sale.Thanks Guys,
Gene

Invite a bunch of bs'rs to dilute a perfectly beautiful thread? Allow it to also turn into "$6500 per 50 millisecond bull****", and lose the concentrated value?

That would be a pity.

[gyar29]

Originally Posted by kadensnga

Invite a bunch of bs'rs to dilute a perfectly beautiful thread? Allow it to also turn into "$6500 per 50 millisecond bull****", and lose the concentrated value?

That would be a pity.

When you're right, you're right.

I take the change the title stuff back.

Gene

[milan]

What Kyle said: The music industry has been "launching" artists forever.

I couldn't agree more, it's so obvious! Not just new artists, it applies to well known artists as well.

The whole career of the best known bands is based around launches. New album is a product which gets launched. Records get promoted by a tour and tons of (other?) marketing activities. The launch date is known well in advance etc. etc.

In the earlier days there was an 'institution' of a single, it died out a bit, but might rise again a bit as internet music gets track (not so album) oriented. But in reality it's all about making a new album.

So I don't see any reason why Product Launch Formula wouldn't work. I think it would work extremely well.

[Steve Longoria]

Originally Posted by milan

So I don't see any reason why Product Launch Formula wouldn't work. I think it would work extremely well.

the only problem i see though, is piracy. why is it that people are more inclined to illegally download an album of music, than they are to steal a digital info product?

[AndrewCavanagh]

What about doing the internet marketing/offline business basics:

Capture the names and email addresses of every fan and then let then know whenever the band has a new release, tour etc etc.

Every major band has a base of loyal followers who will buy nearly anything they release and they certainly could order and pay online.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Steve Longoria]

Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh

What about doing the internet marketing/offline business basics:

Capture the names and email addresses of every fan and then let then know whenever the band has a new release, tour etc etc.

Every major band has a base of loyal followers who will buy nearly anything they release and they certainly could order and pay online.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

no you're right, any band with a decent following will still sell some merchandise and every band should be building a list for sure... i just think it's counter productive to try and stop file sharing, and trying to SELL mp3's.

[David Hooper]

Originally Posted by kadensnga

Personally I prefer youtube to the radio, because I would rather pick what I like to listen to, than to have a radio stuff their demographically correct artist's down my throat. I think alot of others are feeling the same way. It's like when people quit watching the Cosby show and said "we want reality".

Agree with you that the choice is better on YouTube, but if you don't have a computer and an online connection, none of that matters. Broadcast radio is the most easily accessible media there is. $7 for a radio and you're taken care of. Not perfect, but no more imperfect than YouTube or anything else.

Originally Posted by kadensnga

So do you write blog reviews on local bands? I checked out your site. Wasn't sure what kind of work you do. I'm interested in hearing more. Maybe we know some of the same people...

I'm a marketing guy.

I don't write reviews, but do have a radio show where we'll get your music in front of top industry people and let them review it. Current episode is with the producer for Taylor Swift. Music Business Radio: Episode #98 - Nathan Chapman to listen.

My Twitter page has our mailing address. Send ma a CD and I'll get you on.

[David Hooper]

The music industry is coming around. There are still some people hanging on to the way things used to be done, but most of those people are now out of a job and have been replaced by people who get where things are going.

Music Marketing [dot] com: Seth Godin on the Music Business for some good info by Seth Godin, which will give you hope. Also look up "Jim Griffin" in Google for thoughts on the subject.

[John Durham]

Originally Posted by David Hooper

Agree with you that the choice is better on YouTube, but if you don't have a computer and an online connection, none of that matters. Broadcast radio is the most easily accessible media there is. $7 for a radio and you're taken care of. Not perfect, but no more imperfect than YouTube or anything else.



I'm a marketing guy.

I don't write reviews, but do have a radio show where we'll get your music in front of top industry people and let them review it. Current episode is with the producer for Taylor Swift. Music Business Radio: Episode #98 - Nathan Chapman to listen.

My Twitter page has our mailing address. Send ma a CD and I'll get you on.

Cool. I'll dig through some demos this week and find somethin' good for you!

[TheRealDomainer]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

John,

Its clear you have been thinking this through, this is the kind of info that makes the Warrior forum so amazing.

Mark Riddle

Explicitly correct!

[dndoseller]

Originally Posted by David Hooper

The music industry is coming around. There are still some people hanging on to the way things used to be done, but most of those people are now out of a job and have been replaced by people who get where things are going.

Music Marketing [dot] com: Seth Godin on the Music Business for some good info by Seth Godin, which will give you hope. Also look up "Jim Griffin" in Google for thoughts on the subject.

I am thinking that the people running companies like Live Nation are the ones who will pull through - they basically do everything - including the record as I understand it.

How do I know? Take a look at Madonna's website traffic on Alexa before and after her deal with them - basically some people who know what there are doing took over.

[Mark Riddle]

What an amazing amount of info in this one thread ~!

Thanks warriors !

To Answer some PMs no its not a secret what station internet station I work with, I just didn't want that to become a focus of the thread.

(KC Cafe Radio)

This is for an individual artist, something that I think many more people can relate to.

Here's an interesting news story that ties in with the discussions here.

In Online Music Era, Country Fans Lack a Connection

Basically it says that according to survey during CMA Festival they are finding that a large portion of their audience isn't on the internet and with traditional channels drying up, the industry is at a loss on how to survive.

Mark Riddle

[LilBlackDress]

This is a really interesting thread. My 19 year old daughter is a singer/songwriter. Currently she goes to Berklee, gigs with an amazing big band there etc. You can check her out at www.Myspace.com/JessicaMellott or her website www.JessicaMellott.com.

We have learned that unless you come in with a ton of money or a huge following from something like American Idol the odds of getting signed to a major are slim. In addition we had a little experience with a major record label that taught us quite a bit and saved us a lot of learning time. The key for artists is to create a buzz and have the labels come to them ...by that time the artist may not need or want a label.

Through actively promoting, she has gotten close to a million real plays on one site, been featured at a number of sites, works with artists whose names you would recognize and more. One thing leads to another. She is also building her list. As an affiliate marketer I am able to help her with some of this and have learned alot from the warriorforums especially about list building! And from the warrior dndoseller, thanks Dan!

Since she is still in college (graduating a year early) she hasn't gone on tour, but we are trying to plant seeds for that possibility and build up other potential revenue streams. She really cares about her fans and has a pretty loyal following. It is really exciting to watch her career grow.

The whole industry is crazy now, but its really interesting in that you can do so much without a label.

[Nightengale]

I know the answer to this!

It's part of human nature, actually. It's all about wanting what we can't have and doing what we're not supposed to do. People take a perverse sort of satisfaction in stealing music, mostly because they can. I think another reason is because they see artists making ungodly sums and living it up while Joe Beerbelly is living paycheck to paycheck. "Why should the famous, glamorous artist have it all while I'm struggling to pay my bills, keep my job, worry about my kids, and oh, I think my spouse is cheating on me too?" Music is a 2-3 minute bit of escapism and pirating music is a bit of revenge, both on the artist and on their own lives.

But mostly, it's simply because they can. Simplistic and sad, but true.

Michelle

Originally Posted by Steve Longoria

the only problem i see though, is piracy. why is it that people are more inclined to illegally download an album of music, than they are to steal a digital info product?

[Thomas Dean]

Recently I've been speaking with the guys from the band 'Wheatus'... known for their teenage dirtbag hit.

They were dropped from the Sony record label a few years ago, so they started their own label and since then they've been making most of their money from the net.

They recently released a EP on their website using the donation model, which is an interesting concept. Basically, fans can pay what they want to pay. And according to the band it's been a huge success.

[Thomas Dean]

Oh and the membership model is a good one too.

Tom Delonge (from Blink 182, Angels and Airwaves) created a paid social networking type membership site over at modlife.com, where fans can interact with certain bands etc.

I signed up to the Angels & Airwaves modlife site when it was first introduced, and there was plenty of other fans on there... so it's obviously a feasible model for a band with a following.

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I know the answer to this!

But mostly, it's simply because they can. Simplistic and sad, but true.

Michelle

Yes, and the perception is that it's not really stealing because they can hear it on the radio what's the difference

Mark Riddle

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Steve Longoria

the only problem i see though, is piracy.

That's only a problem if you think the product you're selling is CD's

Smart bands have accepted people are going to download their stuff no matter what. So rather than trying to fight the tide, they release music for free... build their fan base... then make money on ticket sales, exclusive box-set type collector material, merchandise etc.

See the interview with Nine Inch Nails' Trent Reznor I posted earlier.

Like Dan Kennedy talked about at least 5 years ago, because of the ease of copying and distributing info products & music etc, the real money is in your core group of loyal follower... your tribe. (The top 20% of the top 20% of your customers who buy the specialized, personalized, high-ticket stuff).

Everything else is just lead generation.

[Martin Luxton]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Here's an interesting news story that ties in with the discussions here.

In Online Music Era, Country Fans Lack a Connection

Basically it says that according to survey during CMA Festival they are finding that a large portion of their audience isn't on the internet and with traditional channels drying up, the industry is at a loss on how to survive.

Mark Riddle

Mark,

That's the beauty of the internet, there's always another country to market to.

CMC :: Country Music Channel - Requests

The country music fan base in Australia is very internet savvy.

My cousin in Oz

Gemma Luxton on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

has been using CMC a lot for promotion through Facebook and Twitter notifications. The site allows fans to request songs at certain times so for the launch of her latest single she got airtime by using her social networks.

US country acts might consider taking part in the Tamworth festival in January 2010

Tamworth Country Music | Tamworth Country Music Festival | Tamworth Gig Guide | Accommodation: HOME

There is also this site

Country Music Radio: HOME

and in August, the Gympie Muster (country music festival)

National Country Music Muster


Martin

[LilBlackDress]

Definitely agree with Kyle, it's really easy for people to get the music free, so musicians often need to look for other sources of revenue streams including merchandise, touring etc.
My singer/songwriter daughter has made a lot more selling fan merchandise than downloads.

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Mark,

That's the beauty of the internet, there's always another country to market to.

That is sooooo true, that is one reason they tour Italy nearly every year.

Looks like they may want to add OZ to their list of places to tour.

That does give me a lot more options to find fans to market too, especially if there already is a willing and able market for the music.

Thanks for the Great Resources ~!

Mark Riddle

[EndGame]

Hey folks,

I have read this thread numerous times for two reasons;

1) The sheer amount of information
2) I am in a band.

I have been talking about using Internet marketing and the product launch model for ages for our band, but none of the members understand what the hell I am going on about! This thread has been really cool and I have showed it to the lead guitarist. He seems to have enjoyed the read and the discussion.

Quite frankly this thread has re-ignited my passion for doing something online with the band. We have loads of young fans who keep messaging us asking how they can BUY our stuff. It's incredible, dozens of requests to send us money and buy our stuff.

On our first demo we just gave our music away for free, but then quickly stopped. It was too late. Our stuff is on torrents sites and through friends and by chance, we happen to know strangers we don't even know have been downloading our stuff all over the country. I was so buzzed when I realized the power of the net and the reach our music now had. We also have close ties with some people in America because of it and have a tiny fan base there, and recieved some air time on a college radio station.

It was pretty incredible.

We've done a couple more recordings and e are doing some more to make a mini-album. The idea is eventually release these for sale some point this year (do I hear a xmas no.1? lol).

I have never given too much of a crap about selling our music. I told the guys in our band that if we made one person smile and one person cry with our music, I'd feel pretty amazing about our music. We did that in the first week of our first demo (which was recorded in the first few days we got together). We have a reasonable social media presence with a few hundred to a thousand followers. We used to have many more, but we totally neglected them and have hardly done anything together recently as a band. Still, it is a source of traffic which we could quickly motivate to visit our site.

Here's my thinking, we have songs that everyone likes and enjoys. We get requests to buy it a lot. My thinking is we take these "classic" tunes and give them all away free. They are already on torrent's sites so why not.

I am thinking of slapping up a nicely made, personal music video of the band on a Frank Kern esque, very simple video squeeze page. When the video is done, or maybe before the video, we tell the viewers to sign up to our email list to get access to the full site nd download all our current tracks for free.

When they get in the site, I am thinkng of using a studiopress.com template. It'll be a blog/site. We have loads of photos and videos I could put up on the site today if I wanted to. We also have a lot of written content.

Later on, we'd "launch" the new tracks we have recorded and sell them for a cheap amount to people on our list. I think this would be a good way of branding, getting recognition and making a bit of moola. I also believe it may sky-rocket our gig bookings. Thats where the money would come in. If we got a nice list size, start selling shirts, balloons and badges. Maybe even hard copy cd's for those that want them.

With the money we make from the sales I'd want to run a number of PPC campaigns as a test as well, or just buy some advertising.

What do people think to this idea? I am so excited about this I haveasked my guitarist Robin to get his ass to see me so we can start work on it asap. Any constructive thoughts on this from my fellow Warriors would be most appreciated though.

[EndGame]

On a rather broader note:

Radiohead did the whole "select a price you want to pay" and it worked wonders for them. They made millions and all the money went straight to their pocket. I suspect more bands and artists will do this. This highlights the importance and power of the Internet. Real talent can get recognised if the barriers to entry are just a little lower.

Furthermore, when recording our last demo, we got talking with the studio owner who also owns a small record label. They were contacted by a London PR firm with regards to their flagship band. The deal on the table was 100k for 4-6 months promotion and they'd get some media attention a little air time and tv time for that. After that, they would need to stump up 10-20k a month to continue with the services.

This is exactly why record labels don't like the risk, and many bands don't have this cash to invest. Many talented people get filtered out of the equation for this very reason. It's massive shame. It's actually all about who can get the most attention and media spotlight. It's a massive shame.

But I truly believe the Internet is becoming the new media, and this wave of new technology and freedom online is going to open doors for all kinds of talent.

Finally, to those saying that the product launch formula has been used for the music industry for years, I agree in part, but I don't think it has been applied in quite the same way the OP meant, and I also can't remember a launch that generated a lot of buzz or excitement in the marketplace, which is what the product launch method is about in part. Or so I believe anyway.

Alex

[Mark Riddle]

Alex,

Yes the concept of a video squeeze page is along the lines of what I am planing to do.

I think it will be a powerful tool to get your fans attention.

Also the concept of music on torrent sites is powerful the one thing that will be different with torrent tracks is they will be tagged with the web site address for fans more content etc in the audio.

Also set up the ID3 tags to include band information and album graphics etc.

Still the problem I am seeing is no reward for JV partners, which is a vial part of the launch formula.

No $2000 package limited to "X" number of people.

This thread has turned out to be much better than I had anticipated and I thank everyone who has posted or read this thread.

I know warriors are the ones who will create the new marketing model for bands and musicians.

Mark Riddle

[EndGame]

Mark, thanks for your reply, you've given me a semi-eureka moment here.

Every band (including mine) has some kind of fan base. Family, friends and others who just enjoy what you do. They are from a generation which typically already have a rather large web presence (myspace, facebook, Twitter, ebay and paypal accounts).

It strikes me that this group of people could potentially become your affiliates if you were to set it up? These people probably wouldn't be familiar with affiliate marketing or product launches and wouldn't expect 1000's. They'd be relatively motivated to let people know about you and your music anyway as they like it, but they could make a couple of dollars/quid by pasting a link to your site around their facebook's etc. It could be a way of saying thank you to the fans. Giving a little back.

My thoughts are in their infancy so I may have all this wrong. Might be worth testing though. Perhaps if we sold our music via e-junkie. Its a shame some of the big music distributors and website merchants do not run affiliate programs. I'll have to look into this a bit I guess.

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by EndGame

Every band (including mine) has some kind of fan base. Family, friends and others who just enjoy what you do.

Yes and there are ways to reward them for doing things like bookmarking, tweeting, commenting, referring and a huge list of other promotion things that will build fans and encourage community!

Mark Riddle

[Karen Blundell]

Originally Posted by Brian Robinson

God bless you and please join my cult... er, religious movement.

that one made me choke...

Mark, U2 has a great community site (free and paid). If I was to develop a site for a band, I think I would create a complete community site, rather then just an informational and product download site.

[ildarius]

Hey guys, sorry for high-jacking your thread, but I was given the ability to promote this band online and share the revenue from sales. I'm not much of a musician so I wanted to know:

"What do you guys think of this band? Do you think it has what it takes?

It would be interesting to hear from all of you and especially from kadensnga, Steve Longoria, Mark Riddle, Ian Clifford, Martin Luxton

YouTube - Sirius Highest Height music video

[John Durham]

I want to respond openly to some emails I have been getting regarding some of the statements I have made on this thread:

1:Copyrights

Copyrights are simple. Rather than my explaining it on this thread though, all you have to do is call BMI, SESAC, OR ASCAP. They are the three major performing rights organizations.

They will gladly assign you a representative, who will gladly listen to your demo's give you advice and send you a full package about becoming a member. In order to receive royalties you must be a part of one of these organizations. It is the very first place to look. They will also give you all the proper forms... to establish copyrights on your songs. If you are good your representative may even refer you to some publishers and try to open a couple of doors for you. Advice: go in person and sit down with them to play your demo's to make sure they check you out. It's easy to book an appointment. No one is turned down. Most reps are well connected with publishers managers and recording industry pro's, they will be glad to help. Just dont get your feelings hurt if they are honest say "I'm gonna refer you to a better demo producer, or a vocal teacher... before we try to get into anything else" These people you can trust. They are not trying to do JV's. Their interest is in protecting you collecting royalties on your behalf. They are genuinely trying to help you.

NEXT:

2: Can I walk in with "MONEY" and get a deal?

I have been asked a couple of time this question in PM's:

You mean if I take 200k to a record company I can get in with this artist I am trying to promote?

NO, NO, No, No!

First of all you probably wont even get in at all unless you are referred by someone with credibility who walks you in the door.

Secondly, if you aren't good, or at least have a "market appeal", then you can waive a MILLION dollars in their face and they still won't sign you. They have reps to protect.

As I said, they require investment on your part alot of times NOT BECAUSE they are scamming...but rather because it's risky for them, even if they like you! Even so there are exceptions to the rule.

I actually worked on both sides, and was in charge of reviewing demo's for awhile for a small pub company after my first writing deal expired... I reviewed thousand of demo's from all over the planet (each of which was submitted by a person who was convinced they were a star)

I can tell you that 90% of the "talent" out there are highly deceived about their level of marketability.

It sometimes takes money, but "Money or no Money", you still have to have a marketable act.

THAT BEING SAID: On the other hand.

You "can" spend money "TALENT OR NO TALENT", and use it to find a songplugger (they are all over Nashville), and pay them to walk you into a record company. It's sad, but it's a fact.

They will gladly open a door for you, but if you walk in without a marketable act you will have wasted your money... those guys are short lived, but they DO exist.

Let's say I have a record company and my friend calls me up and says "Hey this kid doesn't have any talent, but he DOES have 50k, I will cut you in if you let me bring him into your office and play you a few songs... maybe we can sell him some production...

THIS IS THE MUSIC BIZ VERSION OF A "JV".

Then alot of record execs (even legit ones) will listen to you and say: "I'll tell you what, why don't you let me produce you a better album, then we'll take it to my superiors and see if they will buy you... I think you might have a better shot, but I definitely can't get you signed based on this cheap demo... another 50k later they say okay, I'll run it by some people...

Note: They spend 10k on some top notch musicians, create you a decent production, and pocket a 40k split. They may even convince you they are matching your 50k and that your production is costing 100k.

How? Because most music biz "newbies" believe that it must cost at least 10k to get Garth Brooks' violinist on your track. (truth: even "A" list musicians only make about 200 per track). The guys you see playin on stage with your favorite artists only make about $250 per show usually (if that). I happen to know one of Brittney spears dancers and she only makes $200 per night.

Anyway, back to the record producer (the "JV"):

A month later, after you spent 50k and your record is done... you call in to the record exec., and they say "Yeah I tried my best and they loved you, they thought our production was better than Garth, but unfortunately we have too many artists on the roster at this time... maybe if we try again in six months...they really did dig your sound though..."

Yeah, that happens all the time. Sorry.

You have to remember they make their living producing. A record execs career doesn't last long so they take advantage and make as much money as possible while they can, mostly by selling production deals to the wanna be's that come in looking for a deal.

Somebody is inevitably gonna pop up on this thread and say "I'm sure that happens but it's not really the rule...those are just bad apples..."

WRONG! It's the rule!

If you don't trust me on it, then you will be back on this thread apologizing and saying "I stand corrected" 100k later. That's the way it works. It's nature, they produce for a living, and they want to make as much money as they can.

You have to understand; unless that exec signs a Garth Brooks, chances are they won't be an exec at that company for more than a year or two, and then nobody will pay big money to be produced by them anymore. Even if they "DO" sign a Garth Brooks, they still do it, because 2 years down the road garth is gonna find another producer anyway, when he wants to change his sound.


They SMARTLY make their money while they are in demand, much of it from the "wanna be" market, and are always sure to not leave any potential cash on the table. This doesn't make them bad, it only makes them good business men.

The only reason "YOU" think it's bad is because you are idealistic about being a musician and you think of it as "art". If that's the case, why not give it away for free?

Ah. You aren't "that" idealistic are you! lol

Truth: You are going to spend it somewhere anyway, might as well get a good production. You might not get a deal, but you'll get a good album!

BTW: IF THEY SAY "LET ME PICK YOUR SONGS" LET EM. IF YOUR EGO SAYS "I HAVE TO WRITE MY OWN SONGS" YOU ARE USUALLY IN TROUBLE. YOUR LOSS! JOIN THE OTHER 'NEAR DO WELLS' THAT NEVER MADE A DIME BUT AT LEAST CAN SAY 'I DID IT MY WAY'. IF YOU HATE COMMERCIALISM (yeah there's a whole click of commercialism haters to join in music city- all "broke"), THEN LEARN TO BE HAPPY WITH A SMALL CULT FOLLOWING.


In my case my producers always paid for my demos instead of wanting cash, they wanted partial credit on my songs though. They ALWAYS want something. You have to pay to play no matter how you slice it.

If someone offers to "PAY FOR YOUR PRODUCTION" to get you demo'd and then they walk you into a record company for free...chances are you have something. Still the record company might require you to help invest in your deal in some cases.


Lastly


"Talent" doesn't matter. "Marketability" is what matters. If their demographics say that Taylor Swift is the big thing, and you can barely sing, but you look just like Taylor Swift...you might just have a shot.

Politics also matter. If they are a baseball fan, and your Dad is "Tug McGraw", you might get a deal. They know that they can redo your tracks a million times, punch you in and out a gazillion times,move your lines around, compress and use pitch benders... till they come up with a decent vocal track. They also know that by the end of your first tour, doing 300 shows in a year, you will be singing alot better.

There's alot of variables.

Let's say "You sing like Travis Tritt, but you look like Bryan White, and live like Jimmy swaggert... You are not marketable. You dont have a clear focused package.

For instance "You look like an innocent kid, and you have a good voice but you show up wearing tight leather clothes and singing rebel songs... They are scratching thier heads...

Example: Travis Tritt

A: Looks like a rebel
B: Performs Like a rebel
C: Writes like a rebel
D: Lives like a rebel
E: "Is" a rebel
F: Sweats like a wildman...
G: Has rebel conviction all over him

He is a focused package with "MARKET APEAL" to a specific demographic. Everything about him all comes together and delivers one focused message "Rebel"!

Don't try to go in unless "all" of your elements are conducive to one another and you have an "appeal" for a certain niche in the market.

That's what they mean by 'having your act "together". If they can't figure out what you are on an authentic level, then niether will their audience. They have to be able to market you to a niche. Don't go in saying "you should sign me because I can play any style you want...NO. Go in with conviction about a certain style that is "YOU' all the way to bone. Everything about you should SCREAM that style.

Hope that clears some things up.

Ps. If you are "incorrigible" and want to make a professional album that sounds like the Radio and has all "a" class musicians and producers on it. Then PM me, I will be glad to hook you up

Who knows, you might just be the one who breaks through! It happens everyday!

Your best bet is to make a decent record that represents what you love, and market it on the internet independently!

Regards,
John Durham

[Mark Riddle]

Market appeal and being real is the key; there are people with amazing talent that go unnoticed.

A friend of a friend Micky was a lead singer for a regional band and had what most of us thought as amazing vocals.

He ran across a guy from Nashville and was told if the band broke up, let him know he may have work for him in Nashville.

As the normal run of things, bands change so he got a hold of the guy and went to Nashville.

The guy got him a bunch of auditions for session singers, and Micky knew the moment that he heard the other people that he wasn't nearly as good of a singer that he had (and lots of others) thought !

Long story short he didn't get hired for session work but one of the guys doing the audition also needed a backup singer for one of his touring groups and put him on the road for a number of years singing backup with various groups and tours.

For him that was the big time compared to being a touring regional bar band.

He asked why did he not want him to do session work but wanted him to do backup on the road.

The promoters answer was, some people are singers and some people are performers and you see their best in front of a crowd.

When you walk on stage people know you belong there, put you on a mic in a studio you're like a fish out of water.

Makes you Think doesn't it

Mark Riddle

[John Durham]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Market appeal and being real is the key; there are people with amazing talent that go unnoticed.

A friend of a friend Micky was a lead singer for a regional band and had what most of us thought as amazing vocals.

He ran across a guy from Nashville and was told if the band broke up, let him know he may have work for him in Nashville.

As the normal run of things, bands change so he got a hold of the guy and went to Nashville.

The guy got him a bunch of auditions for session singers, and Micky knew the moment that he heard the other people that he wasn't nearly as good of a singer that he had (and lots of others) thought !

Long story short he didn't get hired for session work but one of the guys doing the audition also needed a backup singer for one of his touring groups and put him on the road for a number of years singing backup with various groups and tours.

For him that was the big time compared to being a touring regional bar band.

He asked why did he not want him to do session work but wanted him to do backup on the road.

The promoters answer was, some people are singers and some people are performers and you see their best in front of a crowd.

When you walk on stage people know you belong there, put you on a mic in a studio you're like a fish out of water.

Makes you Think doesn't it

Mark Riddle

A $5,000.00 mic, running through digital recording equipment is pretty unforgiving. A crappy mic will hide alot of flaws, it's different when everything is TOTALLY CLEAR. They will take the time to fix your vocals when you are paying by the hour, or when you are a major act... but not for a "hired gun". They expect hired guns to be able to hit it the first time. They hire them for that very purpose; to get it done efficiently. So your vocals (particularly timing and pitch) have to be "perfect" to get studio work for demo singing... Also, there are alot of things that go over an audiences head when performing live because:

A: Everyone is caught up in the moment
B: It only runs by them once.
C: Being slightly "off" pitch goes unnoticed over the loud music...
D: Many times a club following is biased toward the band...

The same thing goes for mediocre lyrics. If the beat makes em dance they think it's a great song.

On a radio recording though:

A: It gets played thousands of times and it doesn't go over their heads
B: They are in a more thoughtful listening state.
C: If one of the lyrics isn't linking up with the song they notice.
D: If your pitch is off it won't take long for thousands of people to start saying "This guy has sucky pitch".

Recording and playing live are two different animals. That's why, as many great live musicians as you see in Nashville...or any other music city for that matter, most producers wont let them play on their own albums. I am a great musician personally, but not NEARLY what an "A' class studio musician is. There is a HUGE difference. It's all in the nuances.

Plus most live vocalists are used to "wetting it down" and hearing themselves that way, whereas in the studio it's all dry and they add the effects later when mixing it out. This is to make sure the vocalist is in perfect time and stays "in the pocket". When you are used to singing with delay or reverb it confuses your sense of timing to be put in a "dry" situation, especially if you are green and under pressure.

[ahlexis]

The problem is, in the music industry they have been pitching the wrong back end, and although they could get away with it pre-Napster 1.0, now that the model is changed they still refuse to change their back end product!

Here's another thought:

Mark Joyner had something in his big package, the Farewell Package, that I thought was perfect for taking advantage of people sharing: it was code that enabled people to create a "product" and then spread it, and then get paid per download as it spread virally. And each and every person that spread it could sign up and get a cut of the payday. The way it worked was, the free viral download was limited someway and created a strong desire for the "real" version, which people had to pay to get...per file. The fact it's a music file as opposed to an ebook really shouldn't matter.

The marketplace has spoken. The end user, the buyer of everything music related, has said they are sick of paying for music. And even if they are not, piracy has been around since the 8 track tape. The RIAA, in their infinite wisdom, is making the paying customer the enemy because they fail to realize that the damages they claim that were due to piracy and Napster 1.0 were actually due to the fact that the American public was going through a recession and re-evaluating what was important to them. They want to sue, sue, sue, while the customer that likes the music has always shared the product with their friends. The music was on the radio, now it's on cable TV and can be recorded just the same as people used to record the radio.

But they fail to realize the most important thing.

The true product is no longer the music, it's the licensing of other items. George Lucas wrote Star Wars, and no one wanted the rights to the other stuff so he made the movie and got "stuck" with the rights to everything himself. Guess what? The majority of his profit was made off the licensed items such as the Luke Skywalker figurines and light sabors and other toys, not off the sale of the movie, even though it didn't do too bad. Turns out, for George, "stuck" wasn't so bad after all.

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by ahlexis

The problem is, in the music industry they have been pitching the wrong back end, and although they could get away with it pre-Napster 1.0, now that the model is changed they still refuse to change their back end product!


But they fail to realize the most important thing.

The true product is no longer the music, it's the licensing of other items. George Lucas wrote Star Wars, and no one wanted the rights to the other stuff so he made the movie and got "stuck" with the rights to everything himself. Guess what? The majority of his profit was made off the licensed items such as the Luke Skywalker figurines and light sabors and other toys, not off the sale of the movie, even though it didn't do too bad. Turns out, for George, "stuck" wasn't so bad after all.

That's so true.

The mindset of the industry didn't change with the times.
They could have made the move to a new model slowly.

Now it is changing by large abrupt changes that are happening with out "the industry."

I think there will be growth, along with set backs until the "New" methods are perfected.

I once read a report, that if "The Beetles" understood marketing the way the members of "KISS" did, they would not only have a large chunk of the music business, but also large part of the movie, television, and retailing industries.

Mark Riddle

[Mark Riddle]

Here's another example of what is wrong with the industry

Single-mother digital pirate Jammie Thomas-Rasset must pay $80,000 per song - Times Online

Mark Riddle

[boardbroadcast]

product launch formula no
mass control maybe
do something with bit torrent/ branding bugs yes definately

[Martin Luxton]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Here's another example of what is wrong with the industry

Single-mother digital pirate Jammie Thomas-Rasset must pay $80,000 per song - Times Online

Mark Riddle

Maybe that could be a new business model for the record companies.

1. Stop releasing new music (and save a fortune).

2. Sue everybody who downloads illegal copies of your past catalogue (and make a fortune).

3. Hire lawyers on a no-win no-fee basis (and save a fortune).

Martin

[dndoseller]

Just an example of how all the sordid details of IM apply precisely to music as well...

My biggest traffic to my free royalty free music site is through very careful SEO (ie, Google)

But I have realized recently that I am getting my but kicked by similar sites that use an ecommerce CMS and they have over 20,000+ pages indexed. For beginners - number of pages trumps page rank if page rank is equal. Eg, an Amazon free mp3 page with PR 1 can beat me in the SERPS even if my page has a higher rank.

So this week I installed this game script on my site with SEO friendly URLs that will give me about 7,000 new pages. Now I have to get them indexed. After that I need to find a few more scripts to get me up to the 20,000 range - I think next I will install a music videos script that pulls YouTube videos.

However, a social network script is my last resort. I have run social network sites before and the spam is absolutely and completely unbearable to manage. I turn commenting off on all scripts and blogs because to me that is biggest time waster invented online.

Through sheer competitive circumstance my little personal music site will look more like an entertainment portal within the next year. I just don't have enough actual music to fill that much space so I am looking for other content that might be fun.

The keyword spaces in music are extremely competitive, in fact that is what switched my focus from keywords "free music downloads" to "royalty free music", not that "royalty free music" is much easier to break. I didn't set out to offer music royalty free (nor did I think I would ever start a games site) - that just evolved from experimenting with keywords and checking stats.

Anyway, my goal is to rank #1 in Google for a small set of high traffic, but not "too" competitive keywords I have picked. I've gone from page 6 to bottom of page 2 in a year...but page one is all that matters. Something like less than 5% of searchers go to page 2.

But my real long term goal I learned here too - building my list. More traffic, more list.

As far as monetizing like I said before, I don't even bother selling my CD. Maybe I will when I have a huge list.

For now CPA offers convert way better than my CD! LOL

[Mark Riddle]

The music biz is changing, and here's an update....

Buy a CD full price now....

Or save % when you buy at the break -or after the show AND we'll autograph it for you when you give us your email address.

and the you got lucky bonus,

If you got lucky and couldn't hang around for the break, email us a photo you took of the band, we'll send you a special link to by your autographed cd and still save.

Not true numbers

Normal concert 20 cd, with at the break promo 45 (real ratio)

Don't know the numbers of the got lucky part, its too soon to tell.

Mark Riddle

[mikemcmillan]

I'm not an expert, but my son has a band and I've seen some of the things they do. Like someone mentioned, simply passing clipboards around at a gig to get names and emails can be a good thing. You can grow your list and keep up with them by email and social sites. Sometimes they would offer downloads of 3-4 of the songs they played that night in exchange for emails. Kids are so wired these days that they all know what their buddies are doing and it's much easier for people to know where you play and when you release new stuff that it's scary.

[Mark Riddle]

Here is a follow up story saying that the large fine may spark a backlash against the recording industry.

Damages of $1.9 million could backfire on music industry | Entertainment | Music | Reuters


Mark Riddle

[SeanyG]

I used to run the largest dance music download store online. It was an Itunes but for DJs.

Check out to see what Radiohead did during their transition from CDs to digital.

They had an auction on their website where they got fans to pay what they wanted for a song. Free, .01, $10.

The result was that they actually made more per song even with all of the free downloads than if they sold through online music stores. Best of all they generated thousands of emails, even of the people who downloaded it for free.

It was a huge success and got a lot of press.

- Side note- everything went digital 3-4 years ago. They're just figuring this out now?

[Steve Longoria]

interesting news... Mos Def is releasing his latest album as a t-shirt... read more here:

The Pirate's Dilemma

[ideasuniversity]

Originally Posted by David Hooper

Work in the music business and this stuff is already happening. In fact, a lot of the ideas for "product launch formula" are based on, or seem to be based on, music and film launches.

Also, regarding membership sites, the music business has been doing that for 50+ years. We call it a fan club.

Hit me up at Music Marketing [dot] com or David Hooper - Nashville, TN | Facebook for more.

50 years ???

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Steve Longoria

interesting news... Mos Def is releasing his latest album as a t-shirt...

That's interesting, reminds me of E Joseph Cossman (Famous for shrunken heads and the ant farm crazy) Sold spud guns to grocery chains with an endorsement from The Idaho Potato Farmers, with the concept of selling the spud gun and giving away 5 lbs of potatoes free~!

E Joseph Cossman Quote: “Drive-in banks were established so most of the cars today could see their real owners.”

Originally Posted by ideasuniversity

50 years ???

Yes fan clubs are for music groups were just getting to be the craze in the 50's and ever since, the fan club concept introduced by movie execs really started with Hal Roach and an unknowned Mae West

Mark Riddle

[Steve Longoria]

This is what I've been tryin' to say:

Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music

According to research, those who download 'free' music are also the industry's largest audience for digital sales...





Study finds pirates 10 times more likely to buy music | Music | guardian.co.uk

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Steve Longoria

This is what I've been tryin' to say:

Steve, thanks for the post.

The more I study this subject, the more logical it becomes to still offer cd's for sale for those who want them (I think people understand there is costs involved in mailing etc)

AND offer a lot of free content, perhaps release a "CD's" worth of music over a period of time, and then offer a CD of the music.

Let the audience choose whats going to be on the CD by either some sort of contest, or tracking downloads etc.

Sell Merchandise Give Music also looks like a great model to bring in revenue with those folks who don't have a huge following.

Thanks again warriors, there is so many things that I've learned.

It appears that most of these same methods can be applied to other markets.

Mark Riddle