Listbuilding Tip for “lost” Newbies: DON’T!!

[kenboss]

....at least not right away!

I would like to offer a little advice for newbies, on the much hackneyed subject of list building. I don't for a minute deny the importance of a list, whether you are an affiliate or have your own products. But I get a little fed up when marketers and gurus try to push newbies into "building your list" right from the start, as if that were the be all and end all, when they still don’t have a clue. Big mistake, I think.

They never tell you that it is worse than useless to have a list if you are at a loss as to what to DO with it, how to use subject lines, how to provide interesting content, how to pace, how and when to market to your readers, or, to put it a better way, how to provide them with exactly what they need, when they need it, and how to LET THEM KNOW you are doing that --so that a decent percentage of them might actually want to give you some money.

In my humble opinion, learning how to handle and monetize a list is much more important and much harder than learning how to build one. Yet that subject is all too often neglected. But here’s the good part: we all have List Monetization 101 right in front of us for FREE.

Yes indeed - with reasonable observational skills and a little discipline, there is one very fast effective way to acquire that knowledge: simply to subscribe to other people’s lists every chance you get (you are well advised to open a new separate email account for this) and STUDY them until your eyeballs are popping out and rolling around on the floor -- NOT so you get sucked into buying all their products – you’ve got to exercise some steely self-control here and remind yourself that persuasion is what they do – so leave that Paypal button alone.

Don’t get me wrong. If you find yourself itching to buy, that’s GREAT – only instead of pushing that order button, STOP, and go back, retrace and try figure out exactly what that marketer did to get you to that state.
Equally, if you find yourself bored to death and wanting to unsubscribe, do so by all means, but not before making a note or two about what made you feel that way, so you can avoid those pitfalls too.

The truth is, that you have before you as many “live case studies” as you could wish for, illustrating in real time how to (or how not to) use a list as a marketing tool.

Here are some specific things to look out for in your analysis.

As you skim your inbox, notice which subject lines make you WANT to open the email. This is crucial. In fact you should open up a text file or Word doc and start making a list of these.

Then, within the body of the email, see which techniques make you want to click on their links, and why. After all, a link is just a link – it’s the way it is brought to your attention that counts. Have they used humour? Urgency? Fear? Bribery? Have they earned your trust over time? Or......?

So now you’ve clicked – but then what – does the destination sustain your interest? Increase it, even? If not, why not?

How are you treated when you first join the list? Are you made to feel special, or important? Does the experience feel personal, or impersonal. Do you feel enticed to continue? Are you getting VALUE?

You get the idea.

After a few days or weeks of this – it varies with the individual – you should have found some definite role models to emulate – successful marketers whose style you can relate to. You will then be much better prepared for your listbuilding, because you should be be raring to go.

Let me know if you find this useful, or if you disagree with any of it!

cheers
Ken

[artwebster]

Hi, Ken,

Very useful information that simply confirms the basic premise of internet marketing products - leave the most important aspect out!

This isn't just something that list building products are guilty of - far too many products have a section that is crucial but which contains all of the WHAT but none of the HOW.

For example, I still have no idea why I should create a list of thousands of keywords and how to create a campaign that would address them all - nor do I understand exactly what constitutes a campaign. As for 'research' how, with what and how to confirm results is a total mystery on many internet marketing topics.

[Beetrue]

Thank you for posting this.. the reason I haven't started a list yet, is because of the very things you bring out in your article/post. I'm working on the learning what to do with a list part. Thanks again for your valuable input.

[TLTheLiberator]

Great advice for young would be list builders.

I'll also add not to bother getting an 3rd party email management system until you have proven you can generate visitors to any page/offer you like - at will.

Also,

here's a follow up sequence article from a guy who many people believe is the father of the squeeze page - Jonathan Mizel.

This will prove very useful to anyone seeking to profit from list building.

You should at least catalog this url for later.

marketingletter.com/members/oml_68.html

Hope This Helps!!

TL

[dndoseller]

I have to agree with you. I have been building a list and I am up to about 900 people - and I mail to them and try to recommend CPA, affiliate, etc. But it is slow going and only a percentage even read the emails - even though they double opted in.

Just like you said I am starting to learn about the best days and times to do a mailing, how to write a title that gets opened, etc. Managing and selling to a list is a whole art in and of itself.

[lozz1960]

Thanks for the post. You answered exactly all the questions I had re lists ie. what the hell do I do with one.

[OSContent]

You make a good point, Ken. In fact, when I think of it, I don't know many people who had an initial breakout success through list-building (unless they were working with an experienced JV partner). Keeping a list active and monetizing it appropriately requires a great deal of marketing subtlety. And if you're a newcomer to IM who hasn't found a product and niche that sell well for you, then you may want to reserve list-building as a tool you'll use later in your career.

Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. If you purchase list content from an experienced preseller or if you sell products with a proven ability to convert, such as affiliate products (or resale rights products that come with a good sales letter), then that leaves you with at least one free hand to make sure the list remains dynamic--and to finesse prospects into buyers.

[Li Weng]

hmmmmmm, not if they bought mass control :P

[ExRat]

Hi Ken,

I get a little fed up when marketers and gurus try to push newbies into "building your list" right from the start, as if that were the be all and end all, when they still don’t have a clue. Big mistake, I think.

Let me know if you find this useful, or if you disagree with any of it!

Personally, I agree with you. It seems that others strongly disagree though. Try this thread linked below - take some popcorn, you'll need it -

Stop Being A Newbie!

[kenboss]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Ken,

Personally, I agree with you. It seems that others strongly disagree though. Try this thread linked below - take some popcorn, you'll need it -

Stop Being A Newbie!

You know what ExRat? I just looked through that thread and an excellent thread it is too, Eric is spot on! But looking closely I don't think anyone on that thread is actually disagreeing with me. The main message of that thread is: 1. build a squeeze page- 2. drive traffic to it - 3. build your list - 4. market to that list. I couldn't agree more. But, and I can't emphasize this highly enough - if any (or all!) of those four elements makes you go HUH? or WHA? then you are going nowhere, and you are stuck in the exact kind of serial newbiedom that Eric is (rightly) attacking.

The other thrust of that thread is that you should learn by DOING and again I totally agree, and my advice at the start of this thread should be PART of that doing. I chose list handling as a subject, but the same remarks can be applied to copywriting, squeeze pages, you name it.

The obvious pitfall is if you take my advice and use it as an excuse to do nothing, or put off getting started forever and ever. That is NOT what I am suggesting. OBSERVATION, if you make it proactive and not just passive, is an incredibly valuable and overlooked tool. And it's FREE! We forget that successful marketers are doing their job right before our eyes all the time!!

By proactive I mean take notes, hone your ability to observe by learning what to look out for, and APPLY your newfound knowledge to the specific project you have decided you embark on.

If you want to learn how to groom a horse, and you get to follow the stable lass around all day every day, you will end up knowing how to groom a horse, without having to buy any books on the subject. (alternatively you might fall in love with the stable lass and not learn a thing - sorry, can't help you there)

Seriously - you won't learn everything that way, but you slice your learning curve, by narrowing down what you don't know to identifiable, pluggable gaps.

Hopefully!

cheers Ken

[ExRat]

Hi Ken,

I just looked through that thread and an excellent thread it is too, Eric is spot on! But looking closely I don't think anyone on that thread is actually disagreeing with me

We're seeing different things then.

I see you saying -

Title -

Listbuilding Tip for “lost” Newbies: DON’T!!

But I get a little fed up when marketers and gurus try to push newbies into "building your list" right from the start, as if that were the be all and end all, when they still don’t have a clue. Big mistake, I think.

and from the other thread -

Title -

Stop Being A Newbie!

if you are a newbie right now, then you need to stop being a newbie and start selling stuff. In fact, just get a squeeze page up and send traffic to it.

If you do that, then you'll be further along than 95% of all newbies right away.

Send traffic to a squeeze page, and you're in business. That's it.

[snip]

dont know where to start?

traffic to a squeeze page. that's it. start there.

focus 98% of your time on that, and nothing else and just watch what happens.

Yes I've quoted certain parts rather than every last sentence, but those quotes encapsulate what I believe were the main points, which is why the titles match, and why I responded in the other thread as I did.

It's not important, but obviously as I was accused of one or two wrongs in the previous thread by someone that I respected, I saw your thread and originally thought I had found someone else who agreed with me and was making the same point. No worries mate.

[Sue Harrison]

Thank you, thank you

Sue

[Zack Lim]

Hi Ken,

Excellent post.

I agree with you that many products do not cover this aspect of list building.

Good point on studying and do a reverse engineer on how successful marketers do their email marketing.

Thanks

Zack

[Michael Franklin]

Many people are so eager to build a list as soon as they dive into a niche that it usually backfires because:

A) They sell way too much too often in their autoresponder messages
B) They don't know how to provide interesting content

When starting out in a niche, try to get in the habit of not even building a list. Blog about your subject....or Twitter about it....or write articles...try any method. Regardless of your method, just keep getting your information out there. It's okay to direct link to your affiliate product during this time.

Spend the time promoting your content. First of all, you will get a good idea of your niche's profitability since you can track your sales during this time. Second, you will start to absorb so much information as you post your content that the content starts to stick. You really become knowledgeable about the information over time. Plus, readers of your content often give you feedback that becomes the basis of new material.

Over time, it becomes even easier to develop autoresponder material as you start to get a good feel for what are the hopes/dreams/fears of your target customers. You can now craft a good autoresponder series that taps into all of these feelings and create a good bond with your reader.

The cumulative effect of all of this is that now you start to develop fresh content for your autoresponder. You will start to understand how to develop content that is interesting yet relevant.

As Ken mentioned, start subscribing to some existing autoresponders and get a good feel for them. Then as you find ones that you like, think about how you can emulate them. The good ones always find a way to connect to the readers, so make that your ultimate goal when you are ready to start creating your messages.

[Mike Hill]

If you are a Newbie than STOP listening to all the newbies advice...

1. The only way anyone is going to learn is by doing... Sure, you can read all day long but unless you do something you're wasting your time.

2. You don't have to know everything about everything. That is why everyone recommends building a list to start. It's simple... there isn't too many things going on and a person can learn from there.

3. Building a list is the single most profitable thing anyone can do. FACT: According to the Direct Marketing Association the ROI for email marketing is $57.25 for every dollar spent. The ROI of all non-email online marketing is $22.52… that’s less than half.

So don't be afraid to build a list and experiment. The only way you are going to learn what works for you is by actually doing it. There is no one set way of treating your list so stop looking for products that teach you because it all comes down to common sense and actually going out and seeing with your own test results what actually works for you because at the end of the day what works for you is going to be different than what works for Jim down the street...

Mike Hill

[Tenzo]

I have to agree with Mike.

Ken, although I agree with what I see as your overall premise(you need to learn other skills before a list will be profitable), I think that the best way to master those skills is by trying.

One problem I see is that none of the skills that make you a good marketer exists on its own. They are all pieces to a puzzle, and no product or guru can put it together for you. Whatever it is that you can start, start. Add and subtract as needed.

Respectfully,
Kevin

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Tenzo

I have to agree with Mike.

Ken, although I agree with what I see as your overall premise(you need to learn other skills before a list will be profitable), I think that the best way to master those skills is by trying.

One problem I see is that none of the skills that make you a good marketer exists on its own. They are all pieces to a puzzle, and no product or guru can put it together for you. Whatever it is that you can start, start. Add and subtract as needed.

Respectfully,
Kevin

Agreed, you can't land a punch unless you swing, but is there any use in purchasing a 3rd party subscriber management service - like aweber until you know know how to generate visitors at will??

TL

[zoobie]

Very informative Ken. You learned by observation, practice and a bit of tiral and error.
today I don't open most email, just a couple of them that I think are interested.

And to answer some of your questions: how do you know what they will be interested is to ask. To a simple survey 5 questions say and give them a gift, free report wordpress themes, cash coupon etc. When they finish your surveys, you can redirect them to download your gifts. This techniques work fine as 99% of internet users are lazy. So encourage them to fill out your surveys, give them something valuable and I can tell you that worked for me.

After you know what your list interested, just fed them with PLR or affiliate products and test their price points...

Well hopes that help.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I don't think you WILL LEARN how to write emails that engage
UNLESS you have a list of at least a few people who've opted-in
(not your real friends) to receive emails from you.

I started out with a list of 1 subscriber. You have to start
somewhere.

I've written 100s of emails and broadcast them - I got better
with practice.

Arguably, though, for the part-timer the safest route with minimal
risk is to just promote affiliate offers with direct-linking, Squidoo
pages, and so forth and make no effort to get leads, just test
offers to see what works for you.

[studio52]

There seems to be very many trains of thought on list use and list building, but the one constant is that without a list you have no one to mail to. Even if your response level is minimal, its good practice to send out emails, one thing I notice is that those gurus you speak of never quit sending mail to you, until you unsubscribe, I get mail from Budd, and Dillard, every single day, Kiosk.ws owner Joel Therien send mail every single day to his list...which is huge I imagine.

I have heard some say a list of 100 buyers is better than a list of 10,000 freebie seekers.

There are some very good pointers in your thread, thaks for the tips. ken

[ayolov]

Thanks kenboss!

This is a refreshing thread!

There is sooo much information out there, sometimes even contradictory advice, that newcomers feel confused and intimidated. One very common mistake is trying to learn everything, which is of course too much for anyone to grasp.

These small steps are easier and measurable, they can help understand the niche they are getting into and the techniques that they will need in the future. The best way to learn is by practice so if you practice one step until you get the hang of it, then go to the next and so on, you will pretty soon be selling and mastering your niche.

[Harry Behrens]

Definitely a great piece of advice. A few years back I remember buying several products that promised to teach me how to properly leverage a list. I really did feel I needed the guidance so I bought... but in the end none of them delivered on the promise. They would say stuff like "only send out a mail once a month" and such.

In the end the only way to learn is by actually watching people who already do it well and by doing it yourself and falling over a few times.

[YellowDot Software]

On one of my hobby sites I've used my list to just publish my rss feed as a newsletter through aweber. And since the blog is full of content that the audience loves, this has been a successful way to grow the list.

This may be an alternative to start list building while you don't know what you're doing. Just don't send any emails until you do! Of course you need lots of good, free, interesting content to go out every so often.

So as long as you know you don't know what you're doing, this might be a useful way for you to grow your list while learning. Of course I'm doing this on a blog style site, but a squeeze page should also work as long as you have a blog somewhere.

[mikey1090]

Good advice. I'd also practice making sales via a landing page. Gathering email leads is much easier than persuading someone to go buy a $90 forex robot. So if you gain skills in affiliate marketing from landing pages, building the list itself should come relatively easily.

[Alice Seba]

Hmmm...if you don't build the list, how do you learn what works with them? You can study subject lines, copywriting, etc. all day - but until you start getting your hands dirty with your own unique list, you won't know what works.

I'm not sure if you're actually saying don't build the list without learning how to use the list effectively at the same time...but I don't think that's how you worded it. I think you've worded it to say don't try to build a list right away. Learn first instead.

If that's the case, can't agree with that. The best learning comes from DOING.

Alice

[jasonl70]

the very first thing I did was sign up for aweber.. I've been building lists from the very start, and it's not really rocket science. You really can figure things out and learn as you go.

example: I built a list to 2000, and used a heavy pitch approach with it. Then I pointed that same squeeze page to a new list, and used a much more low-key approach. After I had 2000 people on each list, I was able to do a decent comparison of the 2 approaches and decide which one I was going to continue with.

You could over analyze it to death and never take any action, or you can just learn (and earn) as you go

[diger]

Good main stream comments here, - of course. I am sure that every one commenting here and more would agree. But are making any money with your lists? A few probably are but like everything else in IM, over 90% are not (they are failing). No show of hands necessary.

Could it, - would it be better to build a list from those who have directly ask for your information? I don't mean from an opt-in approach necessarily. Subscribers to your newsletter is OK, but even then you need a way to know they are still alive. The idea of "mail 'em till they buy or die" just causes a ton of filtered deletions.

[BobBeckett]

I guess for everyone it's different.

I've been internet marketing for years and years and did mainly direct linking for the first few years. The problem with just doing that is it turns into a JOB. You have to resell the same amount of stuff the next month or more just to have a decent steady income. UNLESS you sell membership/continuity type of products.

If I would have reinvested the money I earned while direct linking into building a list I would be FAR better off today.

So yes... I soooo wish I would have been listbuilding from DAY 1 and jumped right into it head first.

My list today is in the 10's of thousands now but I'm sure it could have been in the 100's thousands

Once you experience "printing money" you will NEVER go back.

My 2 Cents...

- Bob Beckett

[Mike Hill]

Originally Posted by diger

Good main stream comments here, - of course. I am sure that every one commenting here and more would agree. But are making any money with your lists? A few probably are but like everything else in IM, over 90% are not (they are failing). No show of hands necessary.

Could it, - would it be better to build a list from those who have directly ask for your information? I don't mean from an opt-in approach necessarily. Subscribers to your newsletter is OK, but even then you need a way to know they are still alive. The idea of "mail 'em till they buy or die" just causes a ton of filtered deletions.

Just to put a bit of perspective on this, I make 80-85% of my income from my lists... (hint) and according to the Direct Marketing Association the ROI for email marketing is $57.25 for every dollar spent. The ROI of all non-email online marketing is $22.52… that’s less than half.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that List Building is only for the internet marketing / make money crowd... You can literally build a list in any niche. The only thing that will be different is how you monetize it.

Mike Hill

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by diger

Good main stream comments here, - of course. I am sure that every one commenting here and more would agree. But are making any money with your lists? A few probably are but like everything else in IM, over 90% are not (they are failing). No show of hands necessary.

I would be EXTREMELY shocked if this was the case. I've never had any problem making money from my lists. Seroiusly, it's not rocket science.

[joelraitt]

Great post, those are some powerful questions you asked. It really got my brain going in another direction! Thinking of the system you put you customers through, what they are feeling and thinking...what makes them want to buy.

My problem is I see everyone as being so different that to make it that personal and know exactly what even the majority wants is tough sometimes!

[kenboss]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Just to put a bit of perspective on this, I make 80-85% of my income from my lists... (hint) and according to the Direct Marketing Association the ROI for email marketing is $57.25 for every dollar spent. The ROI of all non-email online marketing is $22.52… that’s less than half.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that List Building is only for the internet marketing / make money crowd... You can literally build a list in any niche. The only thing that will be different is how you monetize it.

Mike Hill

Mike I definitely take your point, and I really appreciate all the varying and incredibly intelligent responses to this thread. You guys are all truly fantastic, and this has really helped me to focus in on, and sharpen my own take on the subject.

Of course, I never intended this to be about ‘should you or should you not build a list?’ For me there is no question. What could be better than your very own private source of free, targeted traffic that knows you and trusts you???

But if you look again at my initial post, I’m actually honing in on a very specific issue here, albeit a very widespread one. It is particularly directed at newbies who feel ‘lost’, who feel they ‘don’t have a clue’.

Let me state categorically that I am a HUGE fan of the “learn by doing” approach. But I still maintain that if you are in that ‘lost and clueless’ state, to go blindly into building an opt-in list without having a game plan as to what to do with that list, is suicide. Gotta have a plan! It might even be the wrong plan, and yes, you WILL have to find that out by trial and error. But it should at least be a game plan that you can relate to, that engages you. And where are you going to get that, while feeling lost, is the question!


Maybe it’s just me, but I seem to see countless products, ebooks, ecourses, free & paid reports, etc etc on Listbuilding Strategies, but actually very few that go into any depth about what to do once you have your precious, not-to-be-wasted opt-ins.

The learn-by-doing advocates will say, at this point: “Don’t sweat it. Just start talking to them. Load up that autoresponder and reach out.” There’s a lot of truth and wisdom in that, and I know for a fact that it actually works for many people. But I also know that the idea of suddenly having 100 people who have opted in and are waiting to hear what you have to say, scares the hell out of a LOT of new marketers. Especially when they themselves are still trying to figure out what on earth is going on.

And if YOU are in that category, all I am trying to say is, don’t force it just for the sake of doing it. If you truly feel blocked, take advantage of that huge free resource called OBSERVATION – just make a detailed study of all those emails you get in your own box every day. Bear in mind that a vast majority of them will probably be aimed at the Internet Marketing niche, and your niche may require something different - so it might be well worth seeking out ezines and newsletters directly relating to whatever niche you are involved in. This is an excellent way to get inspired, to get yourself past that block and be doing it yourself before you know it!!

Cheers
Ken

[Mike Hill]

Originally Posted by kenboss

Mike I definitely take your point, and I really appreciate all the varying and incredibly intelligent responses to this thread. You guys are all truly fantastic, and this has really helped me to focus in on, and sharpen my own take on the subject.

Of course, I never intended this to be about ‘should you or should you not build a list?’ For me there is no question. What could be better than your very own private source of free, targeted traffic that knows you and trusts you???

But if you look again at my initial post, I’m actually honing in on a very specific issue here, albeit a very widespread one. It is particularly directed at newbies who feel ‘lost’, who feel they ‘don’t have a clue’.

Let me state categorically that I am a HUGE fan of the “learn by doing” approach. But I still maintain that if you are in that ‘lost and clueless’ state, to go blindly into building an opt-in list without having a game plan as to what to do with that list, is suicide. Gotta have a plan! It might even be the wrong plan, and yes, you WILL have to find that out by trial and error. But it should at least be a game plan that you can relate to, that engages you. And where are you going to get that, while feeling lost, is the question!


Maybe it’s just me, but I seem to see countless products, ebooks, ecourses, free & paid reports, etc etc on Listbuilding Strategies, but actually very few that go into any depth about what to do once you have your precious, not-to-be-wasted opt-ins.

The learn-by-doing advocates will say, at this point: “Don’t sweat it. Just start talking to them. Load up that autoresponder and reach out.” There’s a lot of truth and wisdom in that, and I know for a fact that it actually works for many people. But I also know that the idea of suddenly having 100 people who have opted in and are waiting to hear what you have to say, scares the hell out of a LOT of new marketers. Especially when they themselves are still trying to figure out what on earth is going on.

And if YOU are in that category, all I am trying to say is, don’t force it just for the sake of doing it. If you truly feel blocked, take advantage of that huge free resource called OBSERVATION – just make a detailed study of all those emails you get in your own box every day. Bear in mind that a vast majority of them will probably be aimed at the Internet Marketing niche, and your niche may require something different - so it might be well worth seeking out ezines and newsletters directly relating to whatever niche you are involved in. This is an excellent way to get inspired, to get yourself past that block and be doing it yourself before you know it!!

Cheers
Ken

Hi Ken,

All I am trying to convey is that instead of stopping and doing nothing a person would be better off jumping right in and doing it.... Sure mistakes will be made but if you never step up to the plate and begin swinging then you cannot expect to hit a home run, not even a base hit...

When I first got started I only saw results when I was doing something... Heck, I even tried to convince myself that building a list was a waste of time. Truth is I was only trying to convince myself of that because I thought it was too hard... too technical and who the heck was I to send emails to others?

It finally dawned on me that no matter what I needed to learn how to build a list. Everyone who is successful online has a list and everyone who is successful online right now and do not have a list then they would be even more successful if they started to build one.

Not knowing how is just an excuse... Like I said, when I first started over 5 years ago I didn't have a clue. I was newer than a newbie I made a lot of mistakes but I stuck with it, learned from my failures as well as my successes and now I am a full-time marketer all because I jumped in the trenches and made it work for me.

I didn't give up when it got tough... I learned from it! A person can read books and courses all day long but eventually there comes a time when you just have to get on with it...

I learned that lesson back when I was in the military and realizing no matter what there is no such thing as can't.

Anyone including newbies can start building a list today... I recommend that is where someone start because it has the lowest cost barrier to a real full-time income. BUT, when it gets tough, and it will... you have to "Stay the course" and work through adversity.

The entire time you will get such an education that no course or book could ever replace. You cannot beat experience.

So I guess I'm saying... If you are a newbie who is reading this and are confused, being pulled in every direction and don't know where to start then I highly recommend you start with list building.

Mike Hill

PS. maybe I'm bias but it will all make sense in a few weeks (hint)