$500+ a Day - Guaranteed

[Paul Myers]

John,

Excellent point. I did this with one of the CPA offers this week. The guy fidgeted around about answering how much money you needed to invest to use his technique, and then said "You can start with as little as $100." I smelled something funny, so I bought it. The book said "minimum of $500," so I went back and said so in the thread.

If people don't answer those kinds of questions, the offer should be avoided. On the flip side, there are questions they have legitimate reasons not to answer. Not many, but some.

Metronicity,

I don't want to be in the Bin again.

Just report it, and don't rise to the bait when someone provokes you. Arguing with someone in a WSO thread should be left to folks with more experience and who have more established reputations for watching out for the group.

I'm not questioning your motives, mind you. Not a bit. Just pointing out that you're newer, and people aren't sure why you're arguing an issue.


Paul

[Michael Mayo]

Damn Paul,

Your causing me to give out more Thanks/Karma points than I've Earned Tonight.
I Believe I Need To Call It a Night.

Thanks for all the insights.

Warriors, Have a Great Day/Night!
Michael

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

John,

Excellent point. I did this with one of the CPA offers this week. The guy fidgeted around about answering how much money you needed to invest to use his technique, and then said "You can start with as little as $100." I smelled something funny, so I bought it. The book said "minimum of $500," so I went back and said so in the thread.

If people don't answer those kinds of questions, the offer should be avoided. On the flip side, there are questions they have legitimate reasons not to answer. Not many, but some.

Metronicity,Just report it, and don't rise to the bait when someone provokes you. Arguing with someone in a WSO thread should be left to folks with more experience and who have more established reputations for watching out for the group.

I'm not questioning your motives, mind you. Not a bit. Just pointing out that you're newer, and people aren't sure why you're arguing an issue.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

Michael,

Your causing me to give out more Thanks/Karma points than I've Earned Tonight.

Tsk. Now you've done it. You've invoked the Zen half of the equation...

"The deed which gives rise to gratitude brings karma to the doer. A grateful nature is to the credit of the person giving thanks."

Okay. Enough of that. Back into redneck mode for the rest of the evening.


Paul

[Marian]

You can't really stop it... only eliminate it. There always be someone trying to go the fishy way...unfortunately. The admins are the first ones to make it harder on the poster. The next turn is ourselves, our opinions and reviews.

Marian

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,Tsk. Now you've done it. You've invoked the Zen half of the equation...

"The deed which gives rise to gratitude brings karma to the doer. A grateful nature is to the credit of the person giving thanks."

Okay. Enough of that. Back into redneck mode for the rest of the evening.


Paul

Paul, When you put it that way, I felt I Needed to Stay Up a Few more Minutes.
Well, it took me a few minutes to type this and in doing so I learned
another important lesson.

Important Lesson Learned:
Remove the beer from between your legs before you get up to go use
the rest room!

Thanks,
Have a Great Day/Night!
Michael

PS. Soaking it all in as we speak!

[Paul Myers]

Michael,

Important Lesson Learned:
Remove the beer from between your legs before you get up to go use
the rest room!

[splorf]

That reminds me of one of my oldest (and still circulating) quotes, which I posted to the FIDOnet tagline echo a long, long time ago:

"Paul's Law: You can't fall off the floor."

Also useful when applied in conjunction with beer.


Paul

[wallush]

I purchased several offers that suggest doing black hat stuff like this. The question is how long before you get banned by you CPA network?

[kanus]

You guys from the USA? Not flaming, just wondering if we have forgotten what being from the USA is all about. I think anyone has the right to sell whatever they want, now if they don't tell you up front what it is, appropriate action should be taken, refunds given, yada yada. However, it's not just black hat or illegal stuff I see this problem. Half the time, I cant tell what exactly they want me to buy, but it will make me a lot of money. Well what if I buy it and I just don't like the system or information? What if its just something I have no interest in doing (like illegal stuff)? Since they didnt tell me exactly what it was I would be doing, what recourse do I have, ask for a refund? I'm not going off topic, my point is, we face the same problem in all these books; systems; or whatever. We are targeting illegal and black hat because its not socially acceptable or easier to speak out against and gain traction.

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by kanus

You guys from the USA? Not flaming, just wondering if we have forgotten what being from the USA is all about. I think anyone has the right to sell whatever they want,

Whether someone is in the USA or not, it makes no difference in this forum, or in any other that is privately owned. This one is privately owned, and it is NOT a democracy lol. Meaning no one has rights to do anything in here but what Allen Says believes and says (no pun intended) they should.

Lol what you think is not correct here. This is his house. You've heard that a man is the king of thier castle haven't you?

[kanus]

Originally Posted by mmurtha

Whether someone is in the USA or not, it makes no difference in this forum, or in any other that is privately owned. This one is privately owned, and it is NOT a democracy lol. Meaning no one has rights to do anything in here but what Allen Says believes and says (no pun intended) they should.

Lol what you think is not correct here. This is his house. You've heard that a man are the king of thier castle haven't you?

No, I'm just surprised to hear people talking about banning certain types of products. Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase, if its not what it states it is, then action needs to be taken. TheFlash pointed out the problem as well, I think instead of banning products, we should be more mindful about reviewing them and such.

And yes, the forum owner has the right to do whatever they like, I wont contest that. I'm trying to get people to look at it from a different angle.

[Cynthia A.]

Originally Posted by OSContent

This really captures the essence of the problem that most new Internet marketers encounter. I won't fault them for it completely because I think it's easy to be overwhelmed by the possibilities when you're green and you're introduced to flashy sales pages that claim you can earn millions overnight-- even if you have no relevant skills or knowledge.

When it comes down to it, though, there has to be a customer on the other end somewhere. And I think many new Internet marketers don't really consider that. For whatever reason, it seems like that doesn't need to be the case on the Internet. They just picture money pouring into their Paypal accounts from anonymous individuals who have no interest gaining any tangible value from what they have spent; or from careless advertisers who don't pay attention to whether or not they are getting any type of return.

I agree. Some people will purposely turn a blind eye to all kinds of things (Black Hat especially) if it means they might make some money.

[mmurtha]

Originally Posted by kanus

No, I'm just surprised to hear people talking about banning certain types of products. Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase, if its not what it states it is, then action needs to be taken. TheFlash pointed out the problem as well, I think instead of banning products, we should be more mindful about reviewing them and such.

And yes, the forum owner has the right to do whatever they like, I wont contest that. I'm trying to get people to look at it from a different angle.

Hey Kanus,

I don't think we are discussing banning specific products, just fraud. At least that is what the OP posted about. If certain types of products are used along with fraudulant tactics, such as down right scams, or stealing other people's hard work, then that product should not be up for sale.

There is a big difference.

And yes, I know what you are saying, and I can appreciate it.

[ExRat]

Hi Kanus,

We are targeting illegal and black hat because its not socially acceptable or easier to speak out against and gain traction

Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase

So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?

Of course not.

If something is not 'socially acceptable' why would the forum owner want his forum to gain a reputation for allowing the sale of 'socially unacceptable' products?

Why would the concern of people who have been here for a while and are proud of what this forum stands for be wanting to 'gain traction' on something just because it was easier to stamp out than something else?

Do we appear as a group to be the kind of people who ignore logic but get a kick out of 'gaining traction' to stamp out easy targets?

It's simple - since more and more people started calling their products black hat, more and more people are pushing the boundaries surrounding black hat - to the point where it can include anything - as long as it breaks someones rules somewhere, and to the point where the whole idea within the product is fraudulent.

Put another way, the USP of the product has one aspect - it's fraudulent. And the only tactics/great ideas within the product revolve around how the fraud is carried out/covered up.

Those kind of products are the type of thing created by someone bereft of good ideas and innovation, desperate, probably inexperienced in business and not thinking clearly.

Those people need to come here and just read for a while. Nose around a bit and try and work out how all of the successful people here manage to build long term, stable, blossoming, sustainable, semi-auto-pilot, saleable businesses that provide value and that they can be proud of.

That would be a much better way to spend their time than hawking black hat BS products. There is an abundance of opportunity out there for anyone who knows what this forum is, has an internet connection and can read, learn, type and take action. To fail to take advantage of the abundance of genuine opportunities in front of them is to choose the path of failure.

[kanus]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Kanus,

So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?

Of course not.

If something is not 'socially acceptable' why would the forum owner want his forum to gain a reputation for allowing the sale of 'socially unacceptable' products?

Why would the concern of people who have been here for a while and are proud of what this forum stands for be wanting to 'gain traction' on something just because it was easier to stamp out than something else?

Do we appear as a group to be the kind of people who ignore logic but get a kick out of 'gaining traction' to stamp out easy targets?

It's simple - since more and more people started calling their products black hat, more and more people are pushing the boundaries surrounding black hat - to the point where it can include anything - as long as it breaks someones rules somewhere, and to the point where the whole idea within the product is fraudulent.

Put another way, the USP of the product has one aspect - it's fraudulent. And the only tactics/great ideas within the product revolve around how the fraud is carried out/covered up.

Those kind of products are the type of thing created by someone bereft of good ideas and innovation, desperate, probably inexperienced in business and not thinking clearly.

Those people need to come here and just read for a while. Nose around a bit and try and work out how all of the successful people here manage to build long term, stable, blossoming, sustainable, semi-auto-pilot, saleable businesses that provide value and that they can be proud of.

That would be a much better way to spend their time than hawking black hat BS products. There is an abundance of opportunity out there for anyone who knows what this forum is, has an internet connection and can read, learn, type and take action. To fail to take advantage of the abundance of genuine opportunities in front of them is to choose the path of failure.

You cant quote one or two sentences and debate them, you have to read and comment on the entire point of the post. I love to debate, good stuff, but those two sentences don't represent the entire point I'm trying to prove. I have to go back to the original post here, the problem he presents as only in "BlueFart" or "fraudulent" stuff. My point is this problem is not limited to "BlueFart" and "fraudulent" products, I have had this same problem with non "BlueFart" and "fraudulent" products. We are, in part, responsible for these products to continue to be sold. Because we don't take the time to get a refund or comment on the product when we buy it. Most of us take the loss and the information rots on our hard drive.

I wont speak for what the forum owner wants or doesn't want on the forum, but I'm sure if enough of you don't want fraud related products on the forum, the forum owner will consider enforcing rules against it. However, what constitutes as fraud? Is BlueFart to be banned as well? Hell I thought blackhat was a selling point for some people. Where do we draw the line?

Don't answer those questions, I don't care what the answers are, I'm asking the questions to prove how difficult of a solution moderating these products would be. I think the easiest solution to the problem is we look at how we can fix it. We can comment on products we do and don't like to other members, we can request refunds to these products. We can enforce clarity in products, ask questions, as the original poster presents his problem, he wasn't aware it was fraudulent activity in the WSO. Again, this is problem not exclusive to BlueFart and Fraud products.

Lastly, "how to sell crack" or brothel are bad examples, and pretty extreme, I wouldn't expect to see something like that. If someone had a guide on "How to make money by scamming people into signing up for dating services?", I say why not. Will it be controversial? Yes. Will people flame the product? Likely. Will some people enjoy reading the product? If the title was that clear, and they bought the product, I cant see why they wouldn't. I read these products on occasion as I am intrigued by the ingenuity put behind them and some times get legitimate ideas from it. In the end, wouldn't you just skip that product if you weren't interested? Do warriors deserve the right to decide if they like a product?

With the solution I am presenting, the title wouldn't be "Make tons of money online" with some vague description, and if it was, someone who bought it would say, "This guide is about scamming people" or something.

Sorry for the long response, but I don't feel I was getting my point across or maybe it wasn't easily interpreted as I don't have the best written skills lol.

[edhan]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I agree, but you will always have people that buy them...therefore you will always have people that sell them

YOu would think that the forum itself would outright ban FRAUD.

It is always so dismay to hear people are doing such scam to earn money. Such short term profit gets no where as it can be easily discovered and put to an end. Everyone has the right to point out and put a stop before it hurts too many innocent people who want to have a decent earning. We all should work together and weed out those unwanted sort of business. Learn the right way of earning good and decent income. It will go a long way instead of short term benefit with such fraud.

[Paul Myers]

Kanus,

Don't answer those questions, I don't care what the answers are, I'm asking the questions to prove how difficult of a solution moderating these products would be.

You are not proving anything - merely asserting it.

Having moderated here for a long time, I can tell you that handling these is relatively simple. If it's advertised as "black hat," in the sense of being unethical or in violation of the TOS of the involved site(s), it will be removed when it comes to the attention of the appropriate people. If it's not clearly advertised as such, it will be removed when and if it's pointed out by the members.

There's nothing especially difficult about that.


Paul

[Rod Cortez]

Originally Posted by ExRat

....So it's OK for people to sell 'how to start a crack selling business' or 'how to run a brothel' or 'how to cheat on your spouse and successfully cover it up' as long as people are told what they are getting?....

So Roger, "How To Run A Brothel" is a bad thing?

So much for my next e-book idea.......

[Kim Standerline]

Yeah that happens and we get accused of bashing the poor old newbies

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I think a possible solution (well, maybe not a solution, but still helpful) would be for more senior Warriors to really dig in and ask the tough questions of new WSO posters. Do it in full view right on the thread. Force the OP to either answer or ignore (which is an answer too). Anyone offering a legit WSO will be able to forthrightly respond in a timely manner with an actual answer, not a clever obfuscation.

John

[Steve Iser]

WSOs used to serve as a good testing platform on metrics and interesting marketing concepts - pretty much all of them are absolute jokes now.

[ExRat]

Hi Kanus,

This is helpful. Someone new asked us yesterday in another thread 'can you share any posting tips.' Part of your answer leads to the perfect answer -

You cant quote one or two sentences and debate them, you have to read and comment on the entire point of the post. I love to debate, good stuff, but those two sentences don't represent the entire point I'm trying to prove.

I can quote them.

The only time it is incorrect to quote just some of someone's post is if you are obviously selectively quoting in order to change the meaning of what was said - that is misleading and can be easily proven by re-quoting the whole thing in it's full context - thus demonstrating the difference.

But some statements stand on their own.

EG -

Who cares what the product is, if you know what your buying, it's your choice to purchase

Which is one of the things I quoted. If you can, please re-quote that it in it's proper context - I don't think you can, it stands alone, I didn't selectively quote you in order to deceive.

The 'tip for better posting' is - don't make statements that when fairly isolated are utterly incorrect. If you can't write your post without doing so, re-think your post before posting it as the holes in the logic of it might be exposed by the next poster.

Yes I chose extreme examples - often a good way to make a point. The main point being that 'the rest of the forum' cares 'what the product is.' We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

I love to debate, good stuff

Me too, but only with someone who is capable of presenting a valid argument. I'm only answering you here because I feel that what I am saying needs to be said.

We are, in part, responsible for these products to continue to be sold. Because we don't take the time to get a refund or comment on the product when we buy it. Most of us take the loss and the information rots on our hard drive.

You are making the incorrect assumption that all of us buy those products. You're also assuming that all of us currently buy WSOs. You are assuming that if we do buy products we don't appreciate, we don't leave negative comments. Wrong on all three.

You just don't seem to get it, and after disputing the quote (above) and suggesting it is not representative of your point, you go and say it again -

Lastly, "how to sell crack" or brothel are bad examples, and pretty extreme, I wouldn't expect to see something like that. If someone had a guide on "How to make money by scamming people into signing up for dating services?"

I don't see any difference between your example and my three. We don't want, or need, products about 'how to scam'. How much clearer does it need to be? Go read my last post (and this one) again to see the reasons why. We build (and teach and discuss how to build) legitimate businesses here. Not fly-by-night scams. There are tons of places to discuss scams.

I say why not. Will it be controversial? Yes. Will people flame the product? Likely. Will some people enjoy reading the product? If the title was that clear, and they bought the product, I cant see why they wouldn't. I read these products on occasion as I am intrigued by the ingenuity put behind them and some times get legitimate ideas from it. In the end, wouldn't you just skip that product if you weren't interested? Do warriors deserve the right to decide if they like a product?

Again, you are totally missing the point. Here it is again -

We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

No-one who has been here a while needs to see those products here. We're doing absolutely fine without them. There is enough abundance out there that warriors don't need to run scams.

What is so difficult for you to understand about that? Admin has said he doesn't want them here.

If you enjoy looking for the ingenuity behind scams, go and buy a book from a bookshop or watch one of those TV programs about it. This is a business forum for business people - the only type of ingenuity I want to spend my time on is the type that makes lots of money legitimately - that way, once you have made it and paid your dues, you can hang onto it, do what you want with it and you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder waiting for the FTC or someone like that to take it off you.

With the solution I am presenting, the title wouldn't be "Make tons of money online" with some vague description, and if it was, someone who bought it would say, "This guide is about scamming people" or something.

So what would the title be if it wasn't misleading?

[Paul Myers]

Roger,

I think it's also entirely reasonable to quote sections when the full context is available to anyone who's reading the quote, and which should have been read by anyone seeing them before they got to the excerpted parts.

Nothing else to add. You said it nicely.


Paul

[CmdrStidd]

Originally Posted by OSContent

This really captures the essence of the problem that most new Internet marketers encounter. I won't fault them for it completely because I think it's easy to be overwhelmed by the possibilities when you're green and you're introduced to flashy sales pages that claim you can earn millions overnight-- even if you have no relevant skills or knowledge.

That is the same thing I complained about in another thread some months back and I was told then that "it is what sells these programs. After all, who wants to buy a program that says Work hard and in 6 months you could be making $XYZ when you can see an ad that says Become a multi billionaire while you sleep.

We have to start getting honest in our own advertising. If anyone is out there complaining about these scams but you are advertising the while you sleep methodology, you are committing a scam too so who are you to throw stones?

[Matt.Lake]

I would guess that the people posting these WSO's aren't even using the method themselves. They know it's wrong and they're just selling it as a THEORY.

Meh.

[ExRat]

Hi CmdrStidd,

That is the same thing I complained about in another thread some months back and I was told then that "it is what sells these programs. After all, who wants to buy a program that says Work hard and in 6 months you could be making when you can see an ad that says Become a multi billionaire while you sleep.

We have to start getting honest in our own advertising. If anyone is out there complaining about these scams but you are advertising the while you sleep methodology, you are committing a scam too so who are you to throw stones?

Did you check the person's profile who said that to see if they themselves sell WSOs that are sold on the 'while you sleep' methodology?

If not, why not? There's no point speculating when it's easy to be sure.

[kanus]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Kanus,

This is helpful. Someone new asked us yesterday in another thread 'can you share any posting tips.' Part of your answer leads to the perfect answer -

I can quote them.

The only time it is incorrect to quote just some of someone's post is if you are obviously selectively quoting in order to change the meaning of what was said - that is misleading and can be easily proven by re-quoting the whole thing in it's full context - thus demonstrating the difference.

But some statements stand on their own.

EG -

Which is one of the things I quoted. If you can, please re-quote that it in it's proper context - I don't think you can, it stands alone, I didn't selectively quote you in order to deceive.

The 'tip for better posting' is - don't make statements that when fairly isolated are utterly incorrect. If you can't write your post without doing so, re-think your post before posting it as the holes in the logic of it might be exposed by the next poster.

Yes I chose extreme examples - often a good way to make a point. The main point being that 'the rest of the forum' cares 'what the product is.' We don't want a reputation for selling fraudulent products. Why? One reason is because it will attract a different kind of forum participant who doesn't share the values of the group as a whole and whos values will impact on the enjoyment of other innocent forum users.

Me too, but only with someone who is capable of presenting a valid argument. I'm only answering you here because I feel that what I am saying needs to be said.

You are making the incorrect assumption that all of us buy those products. You're also assuming that all of us currently buy WSOs. You are assuming that if we do buy products we don't appreciate, we don't leave negative comments. Wrong on all three.

You just don't seem to get it, and after disputing the quote (above) and suggesting it is not representative of your point, you go and say it again -

I don't see any difference between your example and my three. We don't want, or need, products about 'how to scam'. How much clearer does it need to be? Go read my last post (and this one) again to see the reasons why. We build (and teach and discuss how to build) legitimate businesses here. Not fly-by-night scams. There are tons of places to discuss scams.

Again, you are totally missing the point. Here it is again -

No-one who has been here a while needs to see those products here. We're doing absolutely fine without them. There is enough abundance out there that warriors don't need to run scams.

What is so difficult for you to understand about that? Admin has said he doesn't want them here.

If you enjoy looking for the ingenuity behind scams, go and buy a book from a bookshop or watch one of those TV programs about it. This is a business forum for business people - the only type of ingenuity I want to spend my time on is the type that makes lots of money legitimately - that way, once you have made it and paid your dues, you can hang onto it, do what you want with it and you don't have to spend your life looking over your shoulder waiting for the FTC or someone like that to take it off you.

So what would the title be if it wasn't misleading?

It's interesting, there is all this commenting and quoting, and there is absolutely no value.

Allow me to break it down into simple words for you, so I wont be accused of being someone who cant make a valid point.

The problem is some (I don't want you to misinterpret "people" as meaning everyone, so I prefaced it with "some") people are selling products that have very vague descriptions about what the product actually is.

As in the original poster of this thread mentioned, he didnt know the WSO would require him to perform fraudulent activity.

So my solution is... If someone buys a WSO like this, be diligent about commenting on the product, warning others, and asking for refunds. Also, to be clear in stating what a WSO is offering. Example: If the WSO included some fraudulent activity (whether he can or cannot and if its permitted here, doesnt make any difference to my point, if you want to debate it again, go ahead, I will not respond as it has no relevance to what I'm suggesting), the seller would include a statement of "This WSO contains activities that some may consider fraudulent", the title would be something like "How to fraud google and make 500 dollars a day doing it".

[kanus]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Roger,

I think it's also entirely reasonable to quote sections when the full context is available to anyone who's reading the quote, and which should have been read by anyone seeing them before they got to the excerpted parts.

Nothing else to add. You said it nicely.


Paul

Yes, someone reading the quotes can go back and read the entire post... But it takes many sentences to make a single point sometimes. None of the sentences he pulled represented my whole point. What is the point of pulling out a single sentence, unless your just trying to nitpick. People do this all the time, and usually to make it seem like they are saying something totally different. I didn't realize I had to be so conscious of every word I wrote here. Next time I just wont add my comment.