If you are "Selling" your product, your Marketing SUCKS

[Mark Riddle]

Selling and Marketing are sometimes viewed as the same thing, but there is nothing further from the truth.

When you create AND implement a great marketing program you don't have to sell your product or service.

Marketing is the system that builds awareness of your product, your brand AND your authority in the industry.

Marketing is the power house that builds community and fans for your product line.

Many folks make the mistake that view that Marketing is talking to many where selling is one on one.

If you have that view your marketing is already off.

Marketing is the system that gets the attention of the public that you, your company and your product line exists.

Marketing builds awareness of specific product lines.

Marketing builds awareness of your expertise.

Marketing builds your following.

When you have built your marketing system correctly the selling process is practically done for you.

Think of it this way, When certain marketers like Allen Says, Kevin Riley, Andrew Cavanagh, Frank Kern, Rich Schefren, Robert Cialdni, etc...

You know the kinds of people I am talking about.

The kinds of names where you see their promotion, and you instantly scroll to the bottom of the page and buy, then you go back and look to see what you purchased.

You do that simply because their marketing has already told you that what ever this person, this service, this product, is the one you want to purchase with out a second thought.

Mark Riddle

[dvduval]

I do get your point. When I think about my "sales", it is really more just about making sure people are aware of my products. I know for sure that I have not written the perfect copy to "sell" people, and that I could improve in this area, but I also haven't made it a huge priority, because my products and services are selling.

[123rlp]

Poeple don't want to be sold,they want you to help them buy.

[MichaelHiles]

Well, back in the olden days before there was this thing called teh internets, these really smart guys, like Ted Levitt, and others, wrote about marketing as being the entire mix of product price promotion and place. The "Markeing Mix" had infinite combinations that spelled the success or failure of a given campaign strategy.

"Sales" was the actual function leading up to the transaction itself, very distinct from the wider scope of "marketing".

[JohnMcCabe]

Mark, I'll go part way down this path with you, but we part ways when you say:

When you create AND implement a great marketing program you don't have to sell your product or service.

We could all find countless examples of people or companies with great products that everyone knows about, yet actual sales sucked. One of the most famous examples is Alka-Seltzer, with their multi-award winning "I can't believe I ate the whole thing..." campaign. It did everything but ring the register.

When you have built your marketing system correctly the selling process is practically done for you.

Here we're back on track. A solid marketing system brings prospects into the selling arena already prepared to buy, but you still have to nudge them over the edge with a decent offer and compelling call to action.

The kinds of names where you see their promotion, and you instantly scroll to the bottom of the page and buy, then you go back and look to see what you purchased.

You do that simply because their marketing has already told you that what ever this person, this service, this product, is the one you want to purchase with out a second thought.

Sorry, there's no one on God's green Earth that has that effect on me. There are certain people who have built up credibility with me over time, and multiple transactions, where the evaluation comes down to 'is this something I really need' and 'is there money left in the budget' (not 'can I afford it' or 'is there open-to-buy' on the credit card').

Even those people had to sell me the first time...

[Mark Riddle]

John

Yes I understand what you are saying.

To me the Alka Seltzer ad was a branding ad, not marketing.

By that it was like Kleenex ads & Campbell soup ads.

They are about branding to when you want soup or a disposable handkerchief those are the leading brands consumers choose.

Kimberly Clark the owner of Kleenex (which invented the facial tissue market)

Kleenex actually missed the market when it was introduced as a tissue to remove cold cream and make-up.

When the market was changed to a "disposable handkerchief" sales rose quickly and became the household name it is today.

The Marketing of Disposable handkerchief is why Americans buy Kleenex, even though the market of makeup removal is no Kleenex's but a brand also owned by Kimberly Clark Huggies Baby Wipes.

For me there is a difference between a compelling offer, and selling someone on the idea of purchasing the product.

Good stuff John ~!

Mark Riddle

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

John

For me there is a difference between a compelling offer, and selling someone on the idea of purchasing the product.

Mark Riddle

Mark, I'm still not getting the distinction between making a compelling offer and selling someone on purchasing a product...

In my mind, making that compelling offer, then asking the reader/viewer to act on it is selling them on the idea of purchasing the product.

If you look at the stuff Kern, Schefren, Reese, etc. put out, they are definitely selling, regardless of what they call it. It may be spread out over several communications, but the basic process is always the same...

> Here's your problem
> I have a solution
> Here's why you should believe me
> Here's the deal
> Buy my... er, stuff

What am I missing here?

[imnewtomarketing]

Excellent point's you have here!!!

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Selling and Marketing are sometimes viewed as the same thing, but there is nothing further from the truth.

When you create AND implement a great marketing program you don't have to sell your product or service.

Marketing is the system that builds awareness of your product, your brand AND your authority in the industry.

Marketing is the power house that builds community and fans for your product line.

Many folks make the mistake that view that Marketing is talking to many where selling is one on one.

If you have that view your marketing is already off.

Marketing is the system that gets the attention of the public that you, your company and your product line exists.

Marketing builds awareness of specific product lines.

Marketing builds awareness of your expertise.

Marketing builds your following.

When you have built your marketing system correctly the selling process is practically done for you.

Think of it this way, When certain marketers like Allen Says, Kevin Riley, Andrew Cavanagh, Frank Kern, Rich Schefren, Robert Cialdni, etc...

You know the kinds of people I am talking about.

The kinds of names where you see their promotion, and you instantly scroll to the bottom of the page and buy, then you go back and look to see what you purchased.

You do that simply because their marketing has already told you that what ever this person, this service, this product, is the one you want to purchase with out a second thought.

Mark Riddle

[SurviveUnemployment]

I strongly disagree. Marketing gets people into your store, but sales is where your money is made.

Marketing is what you do... | CharlieHipHop

[Alice Seba]

Hi Mike,

Question for you:

If Allen, Kevin et al are such great marketers and never have to sell, why do they bother with the sales pages?

Alice

P.S. Not suggesting they aren't great marketers, of course. Just having trouble following the argument exactly.

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Mark, I'm still not getting the distinction between making a compelling offer and selling someone on purchasing a product...

John,

Selling is the Antonym of Buying

Creating a compelling offer is giving a reason to buy now.

For example you might buy gas for your vehicle every friday night, but if the same company gave you a compelling offer to buy friday afternoon it doesn't change your desire to buy from the merchant, it gives a reason to take action at a specific time.

Mark Riddle

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by SurviveUnemployment

I strongly disagree. Marketing gets people into your store, but sales is where your money is made.

That's great that you strongly disagree.

And That makes sense that if you have a product is less than desirable to move it someone would have to sell it.

Using the slang definition of sell meaning to trick or cheat.

Mark Riddle

[Alice Seba]

oops...sorry. My question was for Mark. Darned small cell phone window..

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Bullionman

Here's the difference as I see it:

....

The reason that many people fail to make money online is that they've been conditioned to believe that it's their responsibility to SELL a given product or service.

Your thoughts?

I would say that we have very similar understanding.

Example :

At a dentist visit the dentist markets the concept of brushing your teeth.

The same dentist provides you with a sample of Colgate toothpaste.

For you it worked and matched what you needed and desired.

When you go to the store you buy Colgate.

Now the same dentist offers someone else Colgate toothpaste, but it really isn't a match for what they believe they need.

But the concept of brushing their teeth was received.

Now, the person will look for the product that matches what they are wanting.

They may be sold various brands.

When they find the product that meets what they desire, from that point on they will buy the product that matches the market they are part of.

Mark Riddle

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

Hi Mike,

Question for you:

If Allen, Kevin et al are such great marketers and never have to sell, why do they bother with the sales pages?

Alice

P.S. Not suggesting they aren't great marketers, of course. Just having trouble following the argument exactly.

Alice;

Is OK, I answer to Mike sometimes too

When you are looking for a product or service, and the things that you find look interesting, and has appeal to you.

When you find something that says to you "Yes this is exactly what I desire"

You buy the product, service etc...

When nothing you come across says to you "Yes that is exactly what I desire"

And you think, I like the concept, but does this do it.

There is a need to persuade you that, both the product fills the concepts that you desire, AND it is also able to deliver the results that match your specific desires. (its not just good for someone, its good for YOU)

Selling is the task to persuade you that you are who this product is made for when the marketing didn't let you know its a match for you.

You decide you need to learn product creation.

Because the things you've read and seen, you know that Kevin Riley matches how you think, and how you learn.

You check out to see if he has a product creation course, when you find it you buy it.

Mark Riddle

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

You decide you need to learn product creation.

Because the things you've read and seen, you know that Kevin Riley matches how you think, and how you learn.

You check out to see if he has a product creation course, when you find it you buy it.

Nope, I wouldn't just buy it...even if I thought Kevin Riley was God (or is he the Hamster King or something? :-)). I would read the sales material to see if it suited my specific needs. I don't buy many products (especially not something as complex as an info product) blindly.

Of course, some do and some would in the case you're providing. That IS good marketing.

However, if we all stopped at marketing, we'd lose out on sales from:

- First-time visitors
- Discerning buyers
- Uncertain buyers

...etc. That's a huge source of customers -- many of whom will become lifetime customers. Personally, I prefer not to lose out on that when all it takes is a little good ol' fashioned selling.\

EDITED TO ADD: Of course, I agree that marketing is very important as you describe, but nope...I don't believe it precludes the need for selling.

Alice

[kadensnga]

Here's my take:

Marketing is the art of getting your offer in front of people who are already wanting it, and then giving them exactly what they want.

Selling is trying to create a desire within a person that may not already exist, and then compelling them to want what you are offering.

A millionaire once said to me: "The difference between moderate success and major success is that a MAJORLY successful person is one who always gives people exactly what they want, while a MODERATELY successful person is always trying to sell them into something that they might like better".

[kadensnga]

Originally Posted by Kevin Hoeffer

Uhh, cool I guess. Now how exactly does this help me make money online?

Good luck bro

It's an education about the difference between the selling vs marketing. It is a small piece of the big picture. If you can't see how this helps you have a ways to go... but dont worry all the answers are here. It's up to each of us individually to put all the peices together and form our own unique ways of succeeding based on the knowledge we gain from studying these posts.

[Zack Lim]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for posting this useful information.

I agree with you that marketing is the activity that is done to create the branding for our own business.

If the person is successful in marketing, the branding will naturally be there as the awareness is there.

Zack

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

Of course, I agree that marketing is very important as you describe, but nope...I don't believe it precludes the need for selling.

Alice,

I do understand what you are saying.

The key being is the answer to this question.

In your mind, is there every a time where you buy, or does someone always have to be selling to you?

Mark Riddle

[igorhelpsyousucceed]

A purpouse of a business should be
solving problems not selling.

If you have an approach of selling ,you immedeatly
destroy your chances with the prospect. You need
to concentrate on his problems and solve them.

Igor

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

John,

Selling is the Antonym of Buying

Creating a compelling offer is giving a reason to buy now.

For example you might buy gas for your vehicle every friday night, but if the same company gave you a compelling offer to buy friday afternoon it doesn't change your desire to buy from the merchant, it gives a reason to take action at a specific time.

Mark Riddle

So if the station across the street made me a compelling offer to buy there instead of my regular station, they'd be selling me?

I think we may be defining 'selling' differently...

To me, selling is asking questions and providing information to assist the prospect in becoming a buyer. With maybe a little gentle encouragement thrown in (asking for the order).

If you are defining 'selling' as the kind of high-pressure mind games that have given used car dealers their sterling reputation, then we can agree...

If you have to resort to that type of tactics to sell your product, your marketing sucks...

[russellprisco]

Sales is when your marketing message gets the other person to think that it was their own idea to want what you're selling.

=)

~Russell Prisco =)

[TelegramSam]

I think you are somewhat living in an ivory tower if you think great marketing will do everything.

These days most people are lethargic about lots of things. Even things they are interested.

You still have to try to convince them to buy a lot of the time.

They may have heard of your product, good things perhaps, know all about it and even think it would be good. But is can still take a salesman or an email or a letter or whatever to bludgeon them over the head into buying it, because the seller knows it will benefit them.

The problem also with marketing and salemanship is that they sometimes overlap and the usage of these words in the English language has become very clouded and somewhat misunderstood.

Where marketing ends and sales begins is a moot point.

Offer something of value to the right people and assist them in buying it because it will benefit them.

Quite where the marketing ends and sales begins is irrelevant really.

Sam

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Alice,

...

In your mind, is there every a time where you buy, or does someone always have to be selling to you?

I am not 100% sure I understand that question. But sometimes I do just buy - but it's usually consumer goods like laundry detergent, toilet paper, etc. And in those cases, I usually choose a brand name - based on price. I don't have any brand loyalty for these items.

HOWEVER, interestingly enough, it is Safeway (not the actual company that makes the product) that I believe sells me on which to buy because they always give the per 100g / per load / per roll price. I always go for decent quality at the cheapest price. :-)

But this does not apply to the way I purchase info products at all. I will lean towards someone who I have experience with / I trust and have learned from...but just because they release a product on X topic, does not mean I buy. I need to be sold.

Alice

[Nick Brighton]

In my opinion, marketing is a case of taking the letters A.B.C and transforming them to spell S.E.X

More specifically...

1. Establish who wants S.E.X the most
2. Find out why they can't get it
3. Develop your A.B.C so that it caters for people who want S.E.X
4. Target the emotional drivers of your audience and show how your S.E.X connects with them
5. Create and hammer home your USP (which is the thing that separates A.B.C from S.E.X)
6. Create a community and instant recognition of your S.E.X so that trust is "built in" and so your sales letters/sales reps can sell it much more easily
7. Sell S.E.X for a price that seems more than fair, considering what S.E.X will get you in life

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

If you are defining 'selling' as the kind of high-pressure mind games that have given used car dealers their sterling reputation, then we can agree...

If you have to resort to that type of tactics to sell your product, your marketing sucks...

Yes, or someone wearing some costume waving a sign to get you to stop in etc.

Mark Riddle

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Quite where the marketing ends and sales begins is irrelevant really.

Sam

Its only relevant when a company is selling, because it didn't complete their marketing task.

Mark Riddle

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

I am not 100% sure I understand that question. But sometimes I do just buy

That happens when the marketing did its complete job

Mark Riddle

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

In my opinion, marketing is a case of taking the letters A.B.C and transforming them to spell S.E.X

To Me you are describing selling.

Marketing not only tells the A.B.C. buyers, this is a match for you, it also tells the S.E.X. Buyers this is not a match for them.

Mark Riddle

[Nick Barton]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

When you have built your marketing system correctly the selling process is practically done for you.

Think of it this way, When certain marketers like Allen Says, Kevin Riley, Andrew Cavanagh, Frank Kern, Rich Schefren, Robert Cialdni, etc...

You know the kinds of people I am talking about.

The kinds of names where you see their promotion, and you instantly scroll to the bottom of the page and buy, then you go back and look to see what you purchased.

You do that simply because their marketing has already told you that what ever this person, this service, this product, is the one you want to purchase with out a second thought.

Mark Riddle

Marketing will get you to the salespage, but it is the salespage that determines whether you buy. If you are lucky maybe a few percent will "scroll to the bottom of the page and buy" but it will be a tiny minority. Perhaps that couple of percent will be enough to meet the target, but that is very rare. Usually that tiny minority will come from people who have already been sold to and are already in the sales funnel.

This of course is the old argument. Is marketing a component of the sales process, or is it the other way round. Speak to the marketing director of any company and they will tell you sales is part of marketing. Speak to the sales director and he will tell you that marketing is simply the first part of the sales process.

To me marketing is getting a targeted customer in front of your offer, which is when the selling kicks in.

The sales part is convincing the customer that your offer is exactly what he needs.

A good salesperson will find out the customers requirements and highlight the benefits of the product that match. Selling is the art of helping the customer to make the correct decision to buy your product.

All the marketing in the world will not make the sale. In the retail world a shop's marketing will get the customer in the door, but the salesperson is the one that takes the cash.

Online the marketing will get the customer to the salespage, but it is the strength of the salespage that will control the conversions.

A really good marketing campaign will make the sale easier, but it will never make the sale a forgone conclusion.

While you can make sales with virtually no marketing, marketing on it's own without sales achieves nothing.

Look at the number of award winning marketing campaigns that achieved nothing in terms of the bottom line.

Usually the only people that tell you that a good marketing campaign will make the sale for you are the salespeople from an ad agency!

Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed

A purpouse of a business should be
solving problems not selling.

If you have an approach of selling ,you immedeatly
destroy your chances with the prospect. You need
to concentrate on his problems and solve them.

Igor

That is the whole point of selling. You identify the customers problems/requirements and demonstrate how your product solves them. That is what selling is.

Nick

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

That happens when the marketing did its complete job

Mark Riddle

Hey come on...you are taking part of my post and disergarding the rest of what I said.

I said I buy a brand name (not generic) and based on price. I don't buy a specific brand name...I simply choose what is the most cost-effective from the bunch.

So sure, somewhere along the line...to some degree, brand name companies have convinced me that buying brands is better. But that's not a specific company showing me their product is better. This perception is also based on experience. I'm often not happy with generic brand purchases, so I prefer to purchase a brand. BUT again, not a certain brand. Just based on price.

For example, one week I'll stock up on Sunlight because it is most cost-effective. But weeks later, I'll stock up on Tide because I can pay less per load.

In my example, Safeway has definitely done a good job marketing to me and they get me to buy at their store - almost completely loyally. But the products I choose have (in most cases) very little to do with the marketing the product manufacturers have done.

So, I'm sure you'll twist what I said and decide that I'm demonstrating marketing at work. Sure, if we're talking grocery stores - Safeway has done the job. But when it comes to those individual products...not so much.

Anyway, this is a bit off from my original point. The point was - selling (particularly the way John has described it) is an important complement to marketing. Even those people you gave as examples clearly SELL...but you've never really addressed my question. Why DO they have sales pages if selling isn't necessary?

Hmmmmm. ;-)

Alice

[GarrieWilson]

I guess my marketing sucks cuz I sell the crap out of my products. But hey, my bank likes it.

John, Mike, etc. ALL pre-sell in their marketing. They do everything else you mentioned but it's all pre-selling.

Just like Colgate is pre-selling itself to consumers when they give dentists samples to give out.

[TelegramSam]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Its only relevant when a company is selling, because it didn't complete their marketing task.

Mark Riddle

For a instance earlier in the thread, I thought you may have some common sense. Now I know that you don't really get it at all do you?

Perhaps if you climbed down out of your Ivory Tower and implemented some sales strategies and tactics, as well as your all important marketing you may make more sales.

It's funny how even the English language gets it right. It says "make a sale".

It doesn't say "make a marketing".

Sam

[Mark Riddle]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

Why DO they have sales pages if selling isn't necessary?

Sales pages present offers, and to confirm the marketing message, to those who are familiar with the presenter, or the product.

And to introduce the marketing message to those who are unfamiliar with the presenter or the product.

Mark Riddle

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

For a instance earlier in the thread, I thought you may have some common sense. Now I know that you don't really get it at all do you?

I was answering your question specifically, the line between marketing and selling is only relevant when you are depending on selling to make up for the part of the task that marketing is better suited for.

In the sense of best practices.

I can see how that I wasn't being clear in your answer.

Mark Riddle

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

I guess my marketing sucks cuz I sell the crap out of my products. But hey, my bank likes it.

John, Mike, etc. ALL pre-sell in their marketing. They do everything else you mentioned but it's all pre-selling.

Just like Colgate is pre-selling itself to consumers when they give dentists samples to give out.

That's and excellent way of stating it.

Part of marketing's job is pre-selling

Mark Riddle

[jamawebinc]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Mark, I'm still not getting the distinction between making a compelling offer and selling someone on purchasing a product...

In my mind, making that compelling offer, then asking the reader/viewer to act on it is selling them on the idea of purchasing the product.

If you look at the stuff Kern, Schefren, Reese, etc. put out, they are definitely selling, regardless of what they call it. It may be spread out over several communications, but the basic process is always the same...

> Here's your problem
> I have a solution
> Here's why you should believe me
> Here's the deal
> Buy my... er, stuff

What am I missing here?

I agree with you. In the end, it is still selling - regardless of the spin that can be put on it of "helping them buy".

Also, I would change the last step to...

> Here's why you need to buy my stuff right now

Maybe that would be next to last with "Buy my stuff" still being last

[JohnMcCabe]

That works for me...

I guess I include 'here's why you need to do this now' as part of the deal. Good point to break it out separately.

Unless you get interrupted with "where do I sign?", you still need to ask for the order. That might be "Add to Cart" or "do you want me to get started on this?"

[kadensnga]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Well, back in the olden days before there was this thing called teh internets, these really smart guys, like Ted Levitt, and others, wrote about marketing as being the entire mix of product price promotion and place. The "Markeing Mix" had infinite combinations that spelled the success or failure of a given campaign strategy.

"Sales" was the actual function leading up to the transaction itself, very distinct from the wider scope of "marketing".

My vote for best answer. Distinct seperation of the 2 issues.

[rockstarinlife]

Good stuff and this is where I struggled for the last year. Trying to sell my products instead of marketing them.

[VegasVince]

I realize that in this day and age of "brilliant internet marketers" that THE OFFER/PRODUCT/SERVICE... is the red headed bastard step child of the sales and marketing process...because it's usually the last thing anyone ever mentions around here.

The product never seems to matter much today. And yet it's the most important part of the process.

Build it..and the sheep will come....or so it's taught. That's so wrong! And the newbies fail miserably...and give up battered, bruised, and often broke......and it's sad cuz they never had a shot to begin with.

No one had the balls to step up and tell them.... that ultimately you have to sell something people want in order for people to up their hard earned MONEY.

Your customers don't give a **** about your blog or rss feed...they only want what you have....and it better be something they can't live without! Give 'em that...and they'll bang their old man's nearly maxed out.... Gold Visa Card....in a New York second!

At some point.....you have to sell **** people want in order to make money.

All the mediums in the world aint gonna save a loser of an offer...and yet....that's not taught much anymore.

Truth is....if you give the people what they want.....an OFFER they can't live without....the OFFER itself....becomes it's own sales and marketing force....NOT A THIRD PARTY ENTITY.

It amazes me that people would rather spend a lifetime tweaking MEDIUMS....rather then just opening up a water stand in the middle of some hot little town in the desert....with a crude card board sign that reads:

WATER! $297 BUCKS A GLASS! BUY OR YOU DIE! NO REFUNDS!

There was a hot blonde who sat at the end of my bar last night...and I can promise you that she got a free drink on the house...simply by flashing her beautiful pearly whites my direction. She didn't need any long winded sales and marketing mediums...to close the deal.

Great offers...never do.




xxx Vegas Vince
Legend.

[Anonymous Affiliate]

I disagree with the OP.

Marketing wiz tricks can get prospects into the "hmmmm... this sounds interesting..." state of mind, but when they're actually at your store you do need to SELL them in order to convert them from prospects into customers.

You can give free content, you can run an awesome free blog, you can offer fantastic free webinars, etc. But in the end, if you want to make money, you need to put your product in front of your prospects and tell them: "here, this is my **** and you should buy it because of blah blah blah". That is where eventually the money is done.