Has Internet Marketing Become Something You Do "To" People Rather Than "For" Them

[Ron Douglas]

I know this is a bit controversial, but it's not a knock on anyone in particular. I just thought it would make an interesting discussion.

Many of the top IM launches seem to focus on Internet Marketing as something you do "to" people rather than for them. It seems like there is even an air of:
- "This product must be good because I'm doing it to you right now" and
- "Wouldn't you like to do this to others the way I'm doing it during this launch?"

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate good marketing and persuasion. However, I'm starting to think that a certain level of persuasion eventually leads to distrust.

I don't claim to be the self righteous marketer because I use many of these tactics myself. I'm just wondering what others think about this.

[EmpoweredCreator]

I think when we all start out we are thinking of what IM can do for ourselves and don't really put a whole lot of thought into other people. Until it's time to market, then we get wrapped up in the whole "how can I get them to do blah, blah, blah..."

After that we realize marketing is really about getting the prospect to recognize the value of the product, what this inherent value can do for them, and exactly how they can get his value.

Simply telling your prospect that you are actually using the strategies outlined really only adds more value to the product. So, I don't think we are really doing anything to the prospect that they aren't looking for in the first place. Though, diversifying on ones approach can help keep your marketing fresh and realistic.

[Steve Porcaro]

Agreed when I first came online it was about me, however just as in real business in the offline world the best sales reps are the ones that put service of other people first.

That is why it is so important to treat your online endeavors as a real business. So yes the marketing should be persuasive as it needs to get through the clutter however it needs to be for the people.

If you are not serving people and their good you should not be marketing, hence I agree many of the online marketing techniques are to make people do something that may not necessarily be in their own interest.

So todays IM's (general statement) are attempting to get people to do something.....

However another way I look at it is there is a market for almost everything whether it is right or not.

[kennethtang]

IM is still but one part of the Internet experience, though hard to see because we are, after all, IMers and we're hanging out and discussing this in a marketing forum.

But the Internet, per se, was never about doing things either TO or FOR people. It was about, and will continue to be about, doing things WITH people.

After both you and I and everyone else here is long dead and gone, the Internet will still be here...perhaps in another more evolved form, but the major use of the Net would still be doing things WITH people.

Regardless of the thousands and millions made (and to be made) in marketing, doing things WITH people can only enrich our experience and make it more human. We are, after all, humans, and whether sharing stories by the firelight in a cave or sharing jokes on the Net, we still retain the primal need to connect at the level of our humanity.

And if we neglect to do that, whether by treating others as objects, "customers", etc., we lose a little part of that humanity in the very act, at the moment of that act. And that is when, at the end of the day, when the sun has set, and we are alone in the den, that is when we ask ourselves (perhaps forlornly) "Is that all there is?"

Sorry for the dramatics

And now, back to our regularly scheduled infomercial...

[EmpoweredCreator]

Originally Posted by kennethtang

Regardless of the thousands and millions made (and to be made) in marketing, doing things WITH people can only enrich our experience and make it more human. We are, after all, humans, and whether sharing stories by the firelight in a cave or sharing jokes on the Net, we still retain the primal need to connect at the level of our humanity.

And if we neglect to do that, whether by treating others as objects, "customers", etc., we lose a little part of that humanity in the very act, at the moment of that act. And that is when, at the end of the day, when the sun has set, and we are alone in the den, that is when we ask ourselves (perhaps forlornly) "Is that all there is?"

I think KennethTang really hit this one the nose! Awesome thought, never really thought about it in that light but still true none the less!

Everything I do online is help add value to someone or something that someone has created. I never take peoples trust for granted and I know at the end of the day that tomorrow, I'll have another chance to help someone else grow in one way or another.

Thanks for the insight KennethTang!

Cheers!
Adam J. P.

[DougBarger]

Hey Ron,

I know that feeling you're talking about.

Usually it comes with a bunch of talk about "them" as if "them" were some
inanimate object or cold numbers instead of a human being.

As important as numbers are, I agree it's more important to measure success
in how we help make a difference for the better in the lives of the people we serve.

[dageniusmarketer]

One should always be looking to provide value and real tools to their customers to help them gain success simply because if you do, they will keep coming back and also tell others about the good you have to offer. That in and of itself is why you should treat your customers as the valuable individuals that they are, and not commodities, and the benefits of doing so will always come back to you 10 or more fold. Just my 2 cents.

[JoshuaG]

Yea, I see a lot of launches like that. I made a post awhile ago that got everyone in a big huff pointing out a very related point.

These "look I'm doing it to you" tactics only work for an IM launch and their power is really deceiving.

I'd say these "do it to you" tactics only really convince complete newbs. Anyone with 1/2 their wits and a lick of experience will pull themselves out of the salesmens spell and see that it doesn't quite work that way.

Its an odd logic that makes the effect seem more powerful then it actually would be in practice.

You think something like:
"Hes selling me"
"Hes telling me hes selling me"
"But that doesn't stop me from being sold"
"Thus these techniques must really work really well for selling!"

WRONG.

The reason they seem to work so well is because of the context. Hes talking about marketing, so he can be open about the tactics and it seems so powerful because he can be so open... but he can only be so open because of the context.

If he was selling yeast infection cream and started talking about how he plans to persuade you into buying it I don't think that's going to do increase the chance of you buying the cream.

So, you can still apply the tactics to a degree in your own niche, but they wont be near as powerful because you can't use this "comparative context" tactic as part of your pitch AND You have to hid the fact you are being persuasive.

So yea, the whole thing leads to anyone with experience being distrustful.
But the newbs will eat it up!

[WritingMadwoman]

Great questions Ron. I see a lot of newer marketers seem to have the focus of "WIIFM" (what's in it for me) - which is normal, we humans tend to do things only if we get some sort of payoff from it!

But over the past few years I've noticed something interesting about my own IM activities. When I do something with the intention of gaining something from it (the personal gain being my main focus I mean) it doesn't tend to go too well.

My best performing products by far are those I created from a burning desire to help others. Even when:

- I don't have strong copy to convince them they need it.
- I don't have fancy graphics.
- I didn't go crazy on keyword research. (I do some, needless to say)
- I do minimal promotion.

The sales just keep rolling in for those products.

The same thing happens when I write a really great article or blog post from the heart. It gets more links, more bookmarking, and gets a lot more mileage than the articles or posts I write "just to get traffic".

This is one of the greatest secrets of business - put your heart and soul into helping people and your bottom line will grow much more quickly than if you're focused on how to get more for yourself.

Wendy

[Ron Douglas]

Originally Posted by JoshuaG

So, you can still apply the tactics to a degree in your own niche, but they wont be near as powerful because you can't use this "comparative context" tactic as part of your pitch AND You have to hid the fact you are being persuasive.

So yea, the whole thing leads to anyone with experience being distrustful.
But the newbs will eat it up!

That brings up a couple of interesting points.

Are IM newbs the only ones convinced by this?

Not so sure. A product like MC for instance seems to be targeted more to those who have a mass to control if you know what I mean.

Are these tactics less powerful outside of the IM market?

Some would argue that they are even more powerful.

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

I know this is a bit controversial, but it's not a knock on anyone in particular. I just thought it would make an interesting discussion.

Many of the top IM launches seem to focus on Internet Marketing as something you do "to" people rather than for them. It seems like there is even an air of:
- "This product must be good because I'm doing it to you right now" and
- "Wouldn't you like to do this to others the way I'm doing it during this launch?"

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate good marketing and persuasion. However, I'm starting to think that a certain level of persuasion eventually leads to distrust.

I don't claim to be the self righteous marketer because I use many of these tactics myself. I'm just wondering what others think about this.

I think that's always been the case Ron, it might be more apparent today because of the scale (many more millions online today versus 5 years ago).

[Sven Schoene]

Selling is nothing more than pure psychology. Persuasion is convincing someone that they want to do something (which is something you want them to do).

I love psychology with all my heart and so I love marketing more than anything else since persuading someone to give you his hard-earned money is the, well, hardest thing you can do (besides maybe making someone kill himself... or his family... or ten little cute baby-kittens. You get the point.).

Whether you use the powers you have learned through countless internet marketing and copywriting courses that you have purchased to do good or bad is your own decision. Obama also could have used his charisma to take over the world (maybe he's planning on doing that, who really knows???). The Emperor and Darth Vader could have used their force for the good of the universe. It's all upon you, baby!

Now, I do not even know what the hell this topic is about anymore... Ah, yes, internet marketing techniques in non-internet-marketing niches. I really have to agree with Joshua here:

Originally Posted by JoshuaG

Its an odd logic that makes the effect seem more powerful then it actually would be in practice.

You think something like:
"Hes selling me"
"Hes telling me hes selling me"
"But that doesn't stop me from being sold"
"Thus these techniques must really work really well for selling!"

WRONG.

The reason they seem to work so well is because of the context. Hes talking about marketing, so he can be open about the tactics and it seems so powerful because he can be so open... but he can only be so open because of the context.

Good point! Most great copy does not openly sell. Selling always has a lot of negative connotations going with it, like, you know, spending my hard earned money. It is far easier to be "less open" about your persuasion and be heavy on the benefits. Then I as a buyer am not in "spending money"-mode but much rather in "solving some frustrating problem"-mode which is much more powerful.

HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I'm one of the biggest advocates for authenticity and if your product is really, REALLY awesome (like, really awesome) then you might be able to pull off an "open" sales-pitch. Personally, I like open pitches because I love authentic people who know that they do not sell me crap. Frank Kern is a bad example because he is in the internet marketing niche but he would be the "king of authentic selling" (although he uses a lot of little evil sneaky tricks as well ).

[darrin_cooper]

I don't think anyone Markets "FOR" you, at all. I challenge everyone here to actually look at their email box & read your last 10 emails.

I bet you will find the following:
1. A person who has lied about just getting off the phone with the person they are promoting.
2. A person who has lied about having the product --they never purchased themselves, but are promoting it.
3. If you want to reply to that person, there is no "REAL" personal way to get in touch with that person. No way for you to guarantee a response back.
4. The person who is sending you an email, is someone you just bought from, but the email has nothing to do w/ the product you purchased, but is actually promoting 3 other products & saying that you need it now. But you haven't even gotten through their product.
5. The person sending you an email never even followed up with your purchase to see if what you purchased is working for you.

So, yes, everyone is simply Marketing TO YOU. It's the SQUEEZE effect.

People need to get back to service. Think about it.....Car Industry has screwed up. Can you actually name what quality service any car company is providing now? They still haven't even guaranteed service. Financial Companies....now trying to put diversity into their commercials by putting someone from every country saying that they've changed....I mean, people are reading through the B.S.

People just want CUSTOMER SUPPORT that works. No excuses, no issues, no problems. They just want service. I want to be able to contact a marketer, and simply say, hey, did you do XYZ? And for that marketer to actually provide feedback that makes sense -- deep, impactful information. Don't sell me on nothing...just give me the support that i deserve.

[Harry Behrens]

Originally Posted by WritingMadwoman

This is one of the greatest secrets of business - put your heart and soul into helping people and your bottom line will grow much more quickly than if you're focused on how to get more for yourself.

This is so true. Couldn't have said it better myself. I really do think a marketer hits a whole different level when they make the leap between "selling" and "helping".

Of course you're still "selling" even when you do genuinely want to "help", but having a real intention, enthusiasm, and honesty about what you want to provide makes ALL the difference... And I'm not just talking about financial wealth, but your emotional, psychological and spiritual wealth as well. If you help enough other people get what they want, you will succeed, almost whether you want to or not.

[Sven Schoene]

Originally Posted by darrin_cooper

I don't think anyone Markets "FOR" you, at all. I challenge everyone here to actually look at their email box & read your last 10 emails.

I bet you will find the following:
1. A person who has lied about just getting off the phone with the person they are promoting.
2. A person who has lied about having the product --they never purchased themselves, but are promoting it.
3. If you want to reply to that person, there is no "REAL" personal way to get in touch with that person. No way for you to guarantee a response back.
4. The person who is sending you an email, is someone you just bought from, but the email has nothing to do w/ the product you purchased, but is actually promoting 3 other products & saying that you need it now. But you haven't even gotten through their product.
5. The person sending you an email never even followed up with your purchase to see if what you purchased is working for you.

So, yes, everyone is simply Marketing TO YOU. It's the SQUEEZE effect.

People need to get back to service. Think about it.....Car Industry has screwed up. Can you actually name what quality service any car company is providing now? They still haven't even guaranteed service. Financial Companies....now trying to put diversity into their commercials by putting someone from every country saying that they've changed....I mean, people are reading through the B.S.

People just want CUSTOMER SUPPORT that works. No excuses, no issues, no problems. They just want service. I want to be able to contact a marketer, and simply say, hey, did you do XYZ? And for that marketer to actually provide feedback that makes sense -- deep, impactful information. Don't sell me on nothing...just give me the support that i deserve.

Excellent post, Darrin! I think people will be fed up with bull****-marketers and fake people some day and service will be the main differentiator. A problem I see, though, is that the people who really care about the well-being of their (potential) customers and take the time to really communicate have less time to put up sleazy marketing copy and videos. If you just do not care about your people then you can put all your energy in manipulating them, rather than being really helpful, which, quite frankly, sucks.

I know which road I'm going to take for my business, though!

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

Many of the top IM launches seem to focus on Internet Marketing as something you do "to" people rather than for them.

Every con man knows the greatest way to make someone roll over for a con is to convince them you're going to con someone else together.

And any marketer that doesn't study confidence games is not as good a marketer as he could be.

It's really simple: most people think marketing and advertising are a con game. So when you're marketing and advertising... um... marketing and advertising, you need to accept the public perception that it's a con game and position it the same way con games position themselves most successfully.

A productive approach is to say "99% of the people who buy this will do nothing with it because they are suckers". Everyone will think "I'm in that 1%!" and buy the product just to prove it. There's nothing unethical about that. There's nothing immoral about that.

But if it makes you feel bad, don't do it. You can sell plenty of your products without that approach.

[Ron Douglas]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Every con man knows the greatest way to make someone roll over for a con is to convince them you're going to con someone else together.

And any marketer that doesn't study confidence games is not as good a marketer as he could be.

It's really simple: most people think marketing and advertising are a con game. So when you're marketing and advertising... um... marketing and advertising, you need to accept the public perception that it's a con game and position it the same way con games position themselves most successfully.

A productive approach is to say "99% of the people who buy this will do nothing with it because they are suckers". Everyone will think "I'm in that 1%!" and buy the product just to prove it. There's nothing unethical about that. There's nothing immoral about that.

But if it makes you feel bad, don't do it. You can sell plenty of your products without that approach.

That is an interesting perspective and an even more interesting sig line:
"Information Marketing: The business of selling farts by calling them poop."

Maybe I'm not as good a marketer as I could be based on your post, but I'd like to think that everything I sell really has substance. If I don't believe that someone will benefit from what I'm marketing, I will find something else to market.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Ron, what you're describing is merely a microcosm of life.

Let's take this basic example.

Customer goes into McDonald's to buy a Big Mac.

Cashier takes his money and gives him his food.

Cashier does not care that this Big Mac is loaded with fat and ultimately
going to kill the customer. Cashier only cares about taking the money and
moving on to the next customer.

The owner of the McDonald's only cares about getting more and more
people into the restaurant. Owner cares nothing about the cashier's
happiness. Their job is just to take the money...period.

The only thing that matters is that the commercials on TV, radio, or
wherever, make the customer come into the McDonald's to buy that Big
Mac and whatever else they have to sell.

The world has become rather cold and impersonal. The days of the ma
and pa stores, where Joe would come in and Sam would say, "Joe, how
are you? I got your favorite candies in today" are over. Maybe in the
smaller towns this still exists, but in the big cities, forget it. Nobody knows
who you are and nobody cares.

To make matters worse, with the advent of the Internet, the consumers
have become numb to this type of treatment. We don't even need to see
real people anymore. Just go to Amazon to get the new copy of "Death
To Zombies 17" or whatever title is hot today. You don't have to go to
the local software store anymore like the old days when you went there
so much that the owner actually knew you and would point out titles that
he thought you'd be interested in. I remember buying old Atari games at
this one place and the guy who owned it would say to me, "Steve, you
have got to see this new Atari game...Missile Command." He was as
excited about showing it to me as I was about seeing it.

Ron, this isn't the same world that I remember growing up. I knew
everybody where I lived. Now I know nobody.

Seems to me that the whole world is marketing to us.

[JoshuaG]

You guys are gonna love this post.

Im going to go ahead and say that in 90% of circumstances people are only "helping others" as a secondary motivation to their real goal which is making money.

and Thus, selling TO.

If you genuinely felt so strongly about helping others you would recognize there are far more pressing issues in the world then the ones you are trying to solve.

How many of you volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen? Or are a UN peace keeper ?

IM is about making money. Your marketing. Your TRYING to sell stuff.

No one thinks "What is the best way to help others?" and comes up with "Become an IMer to sell stuff I BELIEVE people want/need"

And it goes without saying that most stuff sold aren't things people NEED.

Are you selling - Simple shelter, food, simple clothes, hand tools, medicine that is safe and for people with a serious problem?

If you're not selling any of those things your probably not actually helping anyone.

Ie: You are in the weight loss niche. Do you want to HELP people lose weight? Alright sounds okay, promoting good health is a noble thing to do. So what should you sell them to help them?

LOL.

Thats the marketing metality for you!

These people dont actually need to be sold anything and you know it.

You help them by explaining that all they need to do is exercise and eat healthy. Maybe you try to keep them motivated by explaning why good health is so important. THAT'S IT. That is the best way to help.

But what do marketers do? They make things more complicated then they need to be in order to find excuses to sell people stuff they don't need.
No one needs exercise equipment, DVDs, supplements, fat burning pills etc.
Any specific information on weight loss can be found online for free.

Would you still do IM if you weren't getting paid?
If you wanted to help people though marketing then you would.
And could you do it without TRYING to SELL TO them? Because the very moment you're purpose is persuasion you have gone from wanting to help to wanting TO SELL.

This would bascially have to be your pitch if you didnt want to pursuade:
"So...I dont know. I got this stuff that I think I heard you needed. Do you need it?"
They say "No."
You say "Alright."

Maybe your heart really is nothing but gold, but my guess is that you do it for the money and you're trying to make the best of it by looking at the silver lining that you MIGHT be doing some good in the world.

Just my 2 cents.

[nicholasb]

for the people who don't make any money at it that's what it is, but for us that will continue to rake it in we we always so,lve problems and offer solutions

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

If I don't believe that someone will benefit from what I'm marketing, I will find something else to market.

When you sell information, they're not actually getting the benefit. They get the benefit from using what they get from you - which isn't what you sold them.

You gave them a drill bit, but you sold them a hole.

There's no shame in that. After all, you can't very well mail them a hole.

[Beetrue]

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

I know this is a bit controversial, but it's not a knock on anyone in particular. I just thought it would make an interesting discussion.

Many of the top IM launches seem to focus on Internet Marketing as something you do "to" people rather than for them. It seems like there is even an air of:
- "This product must be good because I'm doing it to you right now" and
- "Wouldn't you like to do this to others the way I'm doing it during this launch?"

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate good marketing and persuasion. However, I'm starting to think that a certain level of persuasion eventually leads to distrust.

I don't claim to be the self righteous marketer because I use many of these tactics myself. I'm just wondering what others think about this.

I agree with you that we have to remember it's not about us or our product because if that's the focus we won't get very far. But rather offer value & put others first so they like us and trust us and then buy from us. I've been in a great step by step training since april and It is rubbing off on me. This training also keeps my focused.

Thanks,
Deb Kay`

[Topher Walker]

Here's the thing, I recently came accross two non-IM products that used Mass Control. One was launched ages ago but is still available, one is in the middle of a launch. I'm not particularly intrested in either normally but I had the "I want those... no need them" feeling. I knew I was being MCed and that stuff was being done "to" me.

The product that's available now I haven't bought. There are cheaper, better versions elsehere. The one that isn't available yet I may still get. I looked into it and the dude who made the product has been into that niche for ages, writing normal books etc and from what I can tell genuinly thinks his stuff can benifit the buyer.

If I didn't know what IM and Mass Conrol were, I'd have bought both. I bet I would have had buyers remorse from the first and never bought from them again. I can't be sure but I've got a feeling I'd feel fine after buying the second, would search out books etc he'd written before and be on his list for life... and it's not something I'd ever thought about before!

I reckon it's fine to do IM "to" people as long as you honestly believe that they will feel that they got more out of the deal than you when the sale has been made.