Competition vs No Competition Markets: Which Has Made The Most Money For You?

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There seems to be two schools of thought when it comes to Internet marketing.

School of Thought #1

One school says the less competition a market has the better your chance of success. In fact, mini-industries, products and services have been created around that premise.

School of Thought #2
The other school of thought says the more competition a market has the better your chance of success.

I notice this seems to be confusing the heck out of most newbies and a lot of oldies as well.

So, my question to the experienced. What has "actually worked" best for you.

Please no theories or speculation. Only those who can speak from experience (to avoid heated debates). No one can argue with a persons experience, right?

Thanks for your input.
#competition #made #money
  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Well, there are so many other variables that come into play other than competition. But okay, I'll bite.

    Hands down, the more competitive markets (and niches) have done much, much better for me. They generally have more buyers, more opportunities for strategic alliances (such as JVs), and they usually have more distribution channels to reach my core audience.

    For me, more competition = more profit.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author MNord
      I agree with Rod Cortez.

      Also, any market that is "low competition" and also very profitable will not remain low-competition for long.

      For a while (I think in the 90s, maybe early 2000s) Blue Ocean strategy was a hot topic. Its basic premise was that a business needs to find or invent non-competitive markets (blue oceans) because they're more profitable than competitive markets (red oceans).

      That theory may have some value in terms of opportunistic niche marketing. But as a long-term business strategy it's pretty shaky. If you continue to abandon profitable markets as soon as competition starts showing up, you will repeatedly put your business at risk (what if the latest "blue ocean" doesn't have any fish in it???). You also may have a hard time building and capitalizing on brand equity and long-term business relationships.

      Competition is where it's at .
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I think demand is the variable of huge consideration here.

    Whether or not there's competition doesn't really bother me... It's whether or not there's demand.

    Are people buying XYZ? Then give me a crack at selling.

    (I always return to the McDonalds analogy. Arguably, their food absolutely sucks. But there's ALWAYS a demand for fast hot food, regardless of who else is offering a similar service).

    PS: Literally every penny I've ever made has been the result of DEMAND. Sure, it can be nice to find a hot "exploit" (where there is massive demand and low competition), but that rarely lasts for long right?

    But demand... Demand will outlast any of us. So... The best advice I could ever give... Is to learn how to channel that demand better than anybody else.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I think demand is the variable of huge consideration here.

      Whether or not there's competition doesn't really bother me... It's whether or not there's demand.

      .
      Competition and demand normally follow each other right. If you have a market with a lot of competition, that usually signals demand. Can you think of any exceptions?
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      • Profile picture of the author NRabosa
        Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

        Competition and demand normally follow each other right. If you have a market with a lot of competition, that usually signals demand. Can you think of any exceptions?
        Innovators create a market out of no demand. Could that be an exception? Like a product you've never even heard of, nothing you have no need for, and something you usually don't want to be associated with but suddenly becomes a big deal to the global community all of a sudden. Competition happens when imitators follow/imitate these Wonders.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Originally Posted by NRabosa View Post

          Innovators create a market out of no demand. Could that be an exception? Like a product you've never even heard of, nothing you have no need for, and something you usually don't want to be associated with but suddenly becomes a big deal to the global community all of a sudden. Competition happens when imitators follow/imitate these Wonders.
          Kinda reminds me of Steve Jobs and Apple. How they were able to predict what people wanted, before the people knew they wanted it.

          Here's a video I stumbled on the other day, on how he approached the competition, if you could call it that.

          His biggest competition seemed to be himself. That's the kind of attitude I'd like to cultivate when I grow up.

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          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
            It's no accident that he believes in low competition niches. He is reliant on Search Engine Traffic!
            Actually, I've spent more than a million dollars on paid traffic. Please don't confuse one example in a brief (but long for a forum) post trying to highlight some points as being the only method I use.

            There are other ways to get traffic, and your mentioning JV partners is one.

            The original post was about high versus low competition. The word "competition" does not exist in a vacuum. Often, around here it refers to SEO. It could refer to physical stores in a geographic area.

            It usually does not refer a JV partner, such as someone emailing your offer to their list. At least in IMHO.

            A proper analysis in that situation, in the context of this thread, would be whether there is high or low competition to get the list owner to mention your product.

            Do you want to spend your efforts targeting JV partners where there is a lot of competition for their attention, or potential partners where there is less competition? Maybe none because they are not advertising their list availability. Maybe they are a business owner who never thought of promoting a third party product and earning money from their list.

            The "choice" for this type of traffic is obviously not mutually exclusive.

            My primary point was understanding the situation and not simply looking at numbers - BECAUSE a low competition niche can be easier and more lucrative than a high competition niche.

            A twist: if a high profile JV partner will send traffic for a product, it could be worthwhile to lose money on the deal so you can start promoting how the "celebrity" mailed for you. In the long-run, that could make a short-term loss profitable.

            Finally, a limitation to your "launch" suggestion is for the most part you are talking about a one-time deal / promotion. Rarely do JV partners continually promote a product over time. SEO, on the other hand, potentially lasts day after week after month after year, and is a business asset.

            I was referring to competition generally, but you were shifting the discussion and talking about specific traffic methods, SEO, JV partners, paid traffic, etc., There is no reason not to pursue all appropriate traffic methods.

            .
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            • Profile picture of the author EnterIn
              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

              Actually, I've spent more than a million dollars on paid traffic. Please don't confuse one example in a brief (but long for a forum) post trying to highlight some points as being the only method I use.

              There are other ways to get traffic, and your mentioning JV partners is one.

              The original post was about high versus low competition. The word "competition" does not exist in a vacuum. Often, around here it refers to SEO. It could refer to physical stores in a geographic area.

              It usually does not refer a JV partner, such as someone emailing your offer to their list. At least in IMHO.

              A proper analysis in that situation, in the context of this thread, would be whether there is high or low competition to get the list owner to mention your product.

              Do you want to spend your efforts targeting JV partners where there is a lot of competition for their attention, or potential partners where there is less competition? Maybe none because they are not advertising their list availability. Maybe they are a business owner who never thought of promoting a third party product and earning money from their list.

              The "choice" for this type of traffic is obviously not mutually exclusive.

              My primary point was understanding the situation and not simply looking at numbers - BECAUSE a low competition niche can be easier and more lucrative than a high competition niche.

              A twist: if a high profile JV partner will send traffic for a product, it could be worthwhile to lose money on the deal so you can start promoting how the "celebrity" mailed for you. In the long-run, that could make a short-term loss profitable.

              Finally, a limitation to your "launch" suggestion is for the most part you are talking about a one-time deal / promotion. Rarely do JV partners continually promote a product over time. SEO, on the other hand, potentially lasts day after week after month after year, and is a business asset.

              I was referring to competition generally, but you were shifting the discussion and talking about specific traffic methods, SEO, JV partners, paid traffic, etc., There is no reason not to pursue all appropriate traffic methods.

              .
              Kindsvator, when I said you believe in low competition niches because you are reliant on search engine traffic, I was not making a judgment on whether or not you also use other traffic generation methods.

              My statement was contextual. I also believe in low competition niches because in some cases, I am reliant on search engine traffic, and deliberately so. But I also spend money on other traffic methods in more competitive niches. It's in that sense that I made reference to your statement.

              And from my perspective, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I only disagree with your point on Joint Ventures being "one-time deal" or ephemeral for the most part. The way I structure my joint ventures, they are anything but one-time in nature. They are deliberately designed to pull in profits for years.

              This is achieved through, among other things, multi-part ecourses, follow up email systems and a whole host of other methods via which I place my offer within the product funnel of my JV partner. And credit to Ryan Deiss from whom I learn't this.

              Anyway, if the offer is profitable, JV partners will let it remain within their system perpetually, almost everytime. The trick is to know how to create an offer that is rewarding enough to justify a place within a JV partners product funnel.

              There are many, many ways to do this, one of which is to offer life time commissions on a whole suit of products. And it's surprisingly easy to do this nowadays. Anyhow, it's night time over here. Will be back in the next 7 hours.
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      • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
        Hands-down, without a doubt, take it to the bank, we're talking a profits comparison of thousands of dollars to one, low competition is the winner. At least for me.

        The key is understanding why there isn't much competition.

        Too often newbies assume it is because there is a lack of "demand" based on search volume for one keyword. They run some numbers with the Google tool and quickly skip gold nuggets and move on to niches they get clobbered in without doing any strategizing or thought..

        I made over a hundred grand last year due to a keyword with less than 100 searches per month. How? My websites (note multiple) are all over the top listings, buyers are desperate, and I have a great backend.

        Barriers to entry are very valuable and create profit centers. While the sheep are running off the Amazon cliff because it is easy to get approved, they ignore thousands of better opportunities.

        Barriers created by needing specialized knowledge, financial hurdles, licensing requirements, selective admissions programs, time requirements, etc., all create opportunities.

        Sadly, since IMers here tend to do the same thing, like sheep, a "barrier" may simply be doing what everyone is not. For example, you don't have a WordPress site with automated crap content, and you aren't promoting Amazon, but instead a selective merchant with products not available everyone.

        Why do you want to compete against everyone and their monkey with an Internet connection?

        If a niche is "high" competition you may want to put your thinking cap on and figure out how to "subniche" it and/or create your own advantage so that you find yourself in a low competition area.

        Frankly, I think it is foolish not to. Do you run into a "high" competition niche saying "me too, me too, I'm just like everyone else?" Of course not. That is why USPs and other angles can be important. Which is another way of saying you are looking to subniche a high competition topic into a low competition one so you can stand out and shine.

        Someone mentioned McDonalds earlier on the thread. Good example for my point. Everyone has to eat so there is a lot of food competition. There is a lot of demand for cheap, fast hamburgers. What do you think your chances of success are by creating a restaurant selling cheap, fast hamburgers? Not much. What are your chances of success if you sell cheap, fast, GMO-free hamburgers? Better IMHO, even though competition is less. In fact, it may be non-existent.

        Someone else said it is a loser strategy to abandon a market when competition starts showing up. That may mean you blew it. Having a first mover advantage is important. You need to take advantage of it so any competition can never overtake you.

        Or, it means you need to diversify. Again, look at McDonalds. Huge industry leader, yet it is forced to continually offer new products to fend off the competition. If McDonalds had kept the same menu it had in 1975 how many stores do you think it would still have open - more or less than today?

        Or, it means something else, such as get out of the market and into something more profitable. Example, IBM got out of the PC market when it first saw competition and then projected what was going to happen to hardware prices. It was going to be a commodity destined for meager margins. The market leader quickly bailed out. What it bailed into are low competition markets.


        .
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        • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Hands-down, without a doubt, take it to the bank, we're talking a profits comparison of thousands of dollars to one, low competition is the winner. At least for me.

          The key is understanding why there isn't much competition.

          Too often newbies assume it is because there is a lack of "demand" based on search volume for one keyword. They run some numbers with the Google tool and quickly skip gold nuggets and move on to niches they get clobbered in without doing any strategizing or thought..

          I made over a hundred grand last year due to a keyword with less than 100 searches per month. How? My websites (note multiple) are all over the top listings, buyers are desperate, and I have a great backend.

          Barriers to entry are very valuable and create profit centers. While the sheep are running off the Amazon cliff because it is easy to get approved, they ignore thousands of better opportunities.

          Barriers created by needing specialized knowledge, financial hurdles, licensing requirements, selective admissions programs, time requirements, etc., all create opportunities.

          Sadly, since IMers here tend to do the same thing, like sheep, a "barrier" may simply be doing what everyone is not. For example, you don't have a WordPress site with automated crap content, and you aren't promoting Amazon, but instead a selective merchant with products not available everyone.

          Why do you want to compete against everyone and their monkey with an Internet connection?

          If a niche is "high" competition you may want to put your thinking cap on and figure out how to "subniche" it and/or create your own advantage so that you find yourself in a low competition area.

          Frankly, I think it is foolish not to. Do you run into a "high" competition niche saying "me too, me too, I'm just like everyone else?" Of course not. That is why USPs and other angles can be important. Which is another way of saying you are looking to subniche a high competition topic into a low competition one so you can stand out and shine.

          Someone mentioned McDonalds earlier on the thread. Good example for my point. Everyone has to eat so there is a lot of food competition. There is a lot of demand for cheap, fast hamburgers. What do you think your chances of success are by creating a restaurant selling cheap, fast hamburgers? Not much. What are your chances of success if you sell cheap, fast, GMO-free hamburgers? Better IMHO, even though competition is less. In fact, it may be non-existent.

          Someone else said it is a loser strategy to abandon a market when competition starts showing up. That may mean you blew it. Having a first mover advantage is important. You need to take advantage of it so any competition can never overtake you.

          Or, it means you need to diversify. Again, look at McDonalds. Huge industry leader, yet it is forced to continually offer new products to fend off the competition. If McDonalds had kept the same menu it had in 1975 how many stores do you think it would still have open - more or less than today?

          Or, it means something else, such as get out of the market and into something more profitable. Example, IBM got out of the PC market when it first saw competition and then projected what was going to happen to hardware prices. It was going to be a commodity destined for meager margins. The market leader quickly bailed out. What it bailed into are low competition markets.


          .
          Thanks for sharing. I have 2 short questions.

          1. Did you get into a market with low competition? Or did you find a segment or niche in the market that had low competition?

          2. And have you noticed any new competitors since you've shown yourself successful in that market or segment of the market?

          Also, good point about barriers (doing what everyone is not).
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Ususally niches have high competition because the demand is there.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author Niche Blogger
      I do a bit of both but as others have said, the money is where the competition is.

      It's easy to throw up a small niche blog on a low competition market (I've never come across a no competition market) and earn some money quickly, but the low competition usually doesn't last forever. When other marketers see you promoting something they're usually quick to jump on the bandwagon.

      For bigger authority sites it's always best to go for a slice of a relatively competitive market. You have more scope for traffic, more products available to promote etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author EnterIn
    Interesting question Niche Man. And it is pretty much the exact same question I once asked Allan Gardyne of Associate Programs a couple of years back when he was still in the game. I'll get back to why our asking the same question years apart is relevant.

    But in short, this is what I have discovered. The traffic generation method you rely on affects which niche will work better for you. Generally speaking, if you rely on search engine traffic, you will want a low competition niche.

    Anyone who is really familiar with seo will tell you that if you create a website that targets lower competition keywords which have sufficient demand, your traffic will grow faster, assuming you get all the other variables right like great content, products, service etc.

    This means you will succeed quicker and easier than if you target a high competition niche when seo is your primary traffic getting method. The reason for this is really simple. You keywords will rank higher quicker. I learned this the hard way.

    You will notice that Kindsvator who was passionate about working in low competition niches was talking like someone who relies quite a bit on search engine traffic.

    He said, "Too often newbies assume it is because there is a lack of "demand" based on search volume for one keyword...
    I made over a hundred grand last year due to a keyword with less than 100 searches per month. How? My websites (note multiple) are all over the top listings, buyers are desperate, and I have a great backend."

    It's no accident that he believes in low competition niches. He is reliant on Search Engine Traffic!

    If on the other hand you choose to enter a niche with a massive product launch in mind, a launch where you enlist several JV partners to promote your product for you, a higher competition niche may work very well for you. The power of 'cooperative money' may aid your speedy success.

    Even though there is competition, many other businesses will be happy to promote a great product to their lists and audiences. This is not theory, we've all seen it happen time and time again.

    My verdict?

    Well, I've come to a point in own online biz where I have decided to focus on a multichannel approach to traffic generation. That helps me target both lower and higher competition niches.

    Lastly, remember that I mentioned that there was significance in the fact that you and I have asked, essentially the exact same question years apart? Well the reason this is significant is because it proves, to an extent, that market saturation online is a myth, most of the time.

    I could be wrong, but you seem concerned about that.

    What am I saying? Two years ago, I needed a solution to the question you have raised. Someone no doubt made money providing that solution to me and several others with a similar 'problem'.

    Now, two years on, I'm not looking for a solution to that problem. But you potentially are. And so are many other people. So there is new demand in this "low competition vs high competition problem" market.

    This proves that even if you get into a niche and competition rises, in most cases, new demand will also keep pouring in. Almost like a regeneration of the market's demand. So I wouldn't be too wary of competition arising especially if you take a multi-traffic generation method approach.

    Hope you managed to bear with the length
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    • Profile picture of the author MNord
      Originally Posted by EnterIn View Post


      But in short, this is what I have discovered. The traffic generation method you rely on affects which niche will work better for you. Generally speaking, if you rely on search engine traffic, you will want a low competition niche.

      Anyone who is really familiar with seo will tell you that if you create a website that targets lower competition keywords which have sufficient demand, your traffic will grow faster, assuming you get all the other variables right like great content, products, service etc.

      This means you will succeed quicker and easier than if you target a high competition niche when seo is your primary traffic getting method. The reason for this is really simple. You keywords will rank higher quicker. I learned this the hard way.
      What a great post! You nailed an important distinction. I was reading kindsvater's post and thinking "You know, he's right--for certain kinds of business models." Clearly, the "low competition" model works for him largely for reasons you cover. Thanks for offering your insight.

      My approach is focused on the long-term--I want to win customers who get to know what I offer, need it on an ongoing basis, and buy over and over. And I don't rely on SEO at all. For me to build that up over time and then pick up stakes and move due to competition would be self-defeating.

      I entered a competitive market on purpose--but demand outstrips supply in that market. So I can't say I ignored competition completely. As Sarevok said, there has to be plenty of demand regardless. Otherwise you're either in a low-competition niche where there's not much money to be made, or a high-competition niche where there's money to be made but you're not likely to make any of it .
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Maybe I'm the odd duck, but I don't look at how competitive it is if I am interested in a market.

        I do look at if the buyers are purchasing and if they are purchasing a lot. When I say purchasing I also mean purchasing more expensive products.

        That normally leads to more competitive markets, though.

        I am more interested in being able to create many different products for that one buyer. I want a whole product line of expensive ($100 + range) high quality products.

        If I can come up with products that help, well, then it's on like donkey kong.
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      • Profile picture of the author EnterIn
        Originally Posted by MNord View Post

        What a great post! You nailed an important distinction. I was reading kindsvater's post and thinking "You know, he's right--for certain kinds of business models." Clearly, the "low competition" model works for him largely for reasons you cover. Thanks for offering your insight.

        My approach is focused on the long-term--I want to win customers who get to know what I offer, need it on an ongoing basis, and buy over and over. And I don't rely on SEO at all. For me to build that up over time and then pick up stakes and move due to competition would be self-defeating.

        I entered a competitive market on purpose--but demand outstrips supply in that market. So I can't say I ignored competition completely. As Sarevok said, there has to be plenty of demand regardless. Otherwise you're either in a low-competition niche where there's not much money to be made, or a high-competition niche where there's money to be made but you're not likely to make any of it .
        Great point MNord. I also find that demand is critical. It's presence makes it possible to do well in a high competition niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
    Obviously when it's a market with a lot of competition it means there is a lot of money to be made in that market.

    However, i believe in the reverse market research theory, which is: How can i add value to the marketplace?

    If there's a lot of competition, and you are able to add value for the consumer, then you shouldn't worry about competition too much. The consumer always decides and should always be put first.
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  • Profile picture of the author drr
    The niches where the money is tend to get found. Hence competition...
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  • Profile picture of the author MatthewM
    I've always stayed in niches where there is high competition. Niches with low competition will eventually have high competition. I've made as much as $1400 in a day promoting click bank tv on pc products targeting low competition sporting event keywords. There are always low competitive key word terms you can target that are related to the competitive niche you are promoting. Also cross promoting is a good way to make money in a competitive niche by offering a product that adds value to an already popular product.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by MatthewM View Post

      Niches with low competition will eventually have high competition.
      Not always. Sometimes they stay low or dwindle if one person finds, creates or improves a tactic, technology or barrier (as kindsvater stated) others can't match.

      Originally Posted by MatthewM View Post

      Also cross promoting is a good way to make money in a competitive niche by offering a product that adds value to an already popular product.
      That one point alone is worth paying for. That idea is Money! Good share.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edwin Torres
    Competitive niches have more competition for a reason:

    *More traffic
    *More customers
    *More products to promote
    *More potential money to be made

    With competitive niches its easier to get started as there are so many ways to get your face in front of your target crowd.
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  • Profile picture of the author TheFranchiseMarketer
    Banned
    Excellent question! Believe it or not, the markets that have no competition will be the most profitable. Other internet marketers will disagree because they don't understand the dynamics. Markets with little to no competition are filled with hungry buys as opposed to high competition markets that are used to seeing "that offer" before. You see what I mean? Now don't get me wrong, you can make lots of money in both arenas. This is why its important to do a little testing here and there so that you can find out for yourself what I am explaining.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TheFranchiseMarketer View Post

      Excellent question! Believe it or not, the markets that have no competition will be the most profitable. Other internet marketers will disagree because they don't understand the dynamics. Markets with little to no competition are filled with hungry buys as opposed to high competition markets that are used to seeing "that offer" before. You see what I mean? Now don't get me wrong, you can make lots of money in both arenas. This is why its important to do a little testing here and there so that you can find out for yourself what I am explaining.
      I always get a kick out the "if they disagree they don't understand" rebuttal.

      Based on what you posted, I have a feeling you don't understand. If you are putting out offers that are considered "that offer" then no wonder you need niches with no competition.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by TheFranchiseMarketer View Post

      Excellent question! Believe it or not, the markets that have no competition will be the most profitable. Other internet marketers will disagree because they don't understand the dynamics. Markets with little to no competition are filled with hungry buys as opposed to high competition markets that are used to seeing "that offer" before. You see what I mean? Now don't get me wrong, you can make lots of money in both arenas. This is why its important to do a little testing here and there so that you can find out for yourself what I am explaining.
      You make an interesting point, and I respect it.

      But what I'm experiencing more and more is no competition markets filled with free information researchers, freebies hunters and curiosity seekers.

      I'm personally finding it harder to find the no competition markets filled with hungry buyers. I've found them, but they usually have to be educated before they buy, sometimes a lot..I also notice I have to look harder each passing year.

      Plus, they don't stay low competition as long as they used to. Have you noticed any of that?
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve B
        From a marketing perspective, very few people understand what a niche really is.

        They confuse niches and markets all the time. Often they use the terms interchangeably. They are not the same thing.

        A market is a group of people with a common need, desire or problem. They are looking for an opportunity to satisfy that desire in some way. So if you are one of the many people with a desire to purchase a new car, you are said to be "in the market" for a new car.

        People move in and out of markets often - as soon as they have a need or desire met they are no longer considered a part of that market unless they have other additional needs that are still unfulfilled within the market.

        Niches are not markets. They are not subsets of markets either. Look the word "niche" up in the dictionary.

        niche (noun and a verb) 1. an ornamental recess in a wall or the like, usually semicircular in plan and arched, as for a statue or other decorative object. 2. a place or position suitable or appropriate for a person or thing; to find one's niche in the business world.

        A niche is a recess or place in a wall where a statue can be displayed. Or as definition #2 states, it's a position for a person (or a business).

        Said another way to make the mental picture more clear - a niche is a place within a market that we choose to position our business to allow us to cater to the needs and wants of a specific group of people with a common desire or problem.

        You do not pick a niche from a list of all the possible niches in a market. It is not something you "pick" in the same way you would pick a book to read at the library.

        You create your own niche when you position your business in a way that allows you to respond to the expressed needs of a market.

        Until marketers understand that they create a niche by choice, they will limit their effectiveness because they will always be directly competing with other businesses as they try to sell the very same products and services.

        I say, create your own niche. Position your business uniquely - differently than all your competitors. When you do that effectively, you eliminate all the direct competition! You know exactly what your customers want because they have told you. You set your own prices. You market from the enviable position that no one else has what you have to offer!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Why do you want to compete against everyone and their monkey with an Internet connection?
    Hmmm, I just don't see it that way Kindsvater. I'm not competing against everyone. Even in the most uber-competitive niches I can find inefficiencies in many of my competitor's business models. I can compete on price sometimes, though that's not usually how I position myself. I usually compete by having a better product, better operations, better customer support, and a better, more efficient promotional campaign.

    I do very well in niches that have little competition and those tend to be very specialized niches, but that's not where I make my bread-and-butter. Even though I do well there, I've done far better from a pure ROI perspective in niches that had more competition, as long as the demand was there.

    If a niche is "high" competition you may want to put your thinking cap on and figure out how to "subniche" it and/or create your own advantage so that you find yourself in a low competition area.
    This advice is so spot on. Aside from having a great USP, a great way to compete is to "niche-down" and find a niche or a mirco-niche.

    Though it's not always necessary. Positioning also plays a huge role there too.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post


      - I'm not competing against everyone.

      - Even in the most uber-competitive niches I can find inefficiencies in many of my competitor's business models.

      - Positioning also plays a huge role there too.

      RoD
      Good living examples, advantages and power of having a niche (I.M.O)
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  • Profile picture of the author summermegan
    Banned
    According to me the low competition market is more profitable than competition market. In a competition market one businessman need to small profit due to heavy competition. while low competition market make huge business.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by summermegan View Post

      According to me the low competition market is more profitable than competition market. In a competition market one businessman need to small profit due to heavy competition. while low competition market make huge business.
      Now are you basing that on your actual experience (numbers, income, profits)? Or are you saying that's what it should be? Just asking.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by summermegan View Post

      According to me the low competition market is more profitable than competition market. In a competition market one businessman need to small profit due to heavy competition. while low competition market make huge business.
      You know that for sure, because you've actually tested it in the marketplace yourself, with your product or service?

      If not, it's dangerous to assume, guess or speculate. The marketplace is like a volatile, contemptuous woman. As soon as you think you have her figured out ... she surprises you, changes or contradicts herself in unpredictable ways.
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  • Profile picture of the author Reddy20
    Competition is inevitable. What's important is you maintain a healthy one and keep yourself grounded
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    My greatest successes have been in conquering those barriers to entry Kindsvater referred to, and creating my niches as Steve B explained.

    The kinds of IM businesses that create 6 figure paychecks, in my experience, are the ones that you build in response to an unmet market need. In my cases, there was no "demand" in the beginning because my markets were not aware of the idea until I introduced it to them.

    Once these markets see what I offer, fine-tuned for their specific business needs, and outside of the mainstream types of products and services typically aimed at them, they flood in. Click my sig link (Jack Gives Back) for one specific example. I have others.

    Interestingly, I have found that my knack is for doing it the hard way and creating niche industries singlehandedly. When I have tried to enter "commodity" type businesses, I have never had much success.
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    • Profile picture of the author MNord
      Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post


      Once these markets see what I offer, fine-tuned for their specific business needs, and outside of the mainstream floods of products and services typically aimed at them, they flood in. Click my sig link (Jack Gives Back) for one specific example. I have others.
      Jack, the post behind your link is great! I did something similar with companies that were sued over issues with their employee benefits programs. We turned $90 in direct mail costs into $250k in billings. Unfortunately, collections became a problem and the project tanked. (Maybe you can make it work!)

      I'm curious: have you seen your model disrupted either by competitors or by the large intelligence aggregators (Lexis, Thomson)? The latter in particular have been expanding their product lines. Do they, or might they, start providing the same information that you do? This would be interesting to hear given our discussion about competition moving into low-competition markets.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
        Originally Posted by MNord View Post

        Jack, the post behind your link is great! I did something similar with companies that were sued over issues with their employee benefits programs. We turned $90 in direct mail costs into $250k in billings. Unfortunately, collections became a problem and the project tanked. (Maybe you can make it work!)
        Thanks! I'd love to hear more about what you did... maybe we can share notes?

        Originally Posted by MNord View Post

        I'm curious: have you seen your model disrupted either by competitors or by the large intelligence aggregators (Lexis, Thomson)? The latter in particular have been expanding their product lines. Do they, or might they, start providing the same information that you do? This would be interesting to hear given our discussion about competition moving into low-competition markets.
        As a matter of fact, Lexis does have a competing product, but I regularly (believe it or not) win clients from them because they half-ass it, and I have the "Cadillac" product/reputation in the industry. No small accomplishment, and one I am mighty proud of. But it has taken years of hard work and consistency to build that credibility and positioning in the marketplace.

        To the onlookers who think marketing is something you do from the beach while sipping a pina colada, I have a bit of a reality check for you.
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        • Profile picture of the author MNord
          Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

          Thanks! I'd love to hear more about what you did... maybe we can share notes?



          As a matter of fact, Lexis does have a competing product, but I regularly (believe it or not) win clients from them because they half-ass it, and I have the "Cadillac" product/reputation in the industry. No small accomplishment, and one I am mighty proud of. But it has taken years of hard work and consistency to build that credibility and positioning in the marketplace.

          To the onlookers who think marketing is something you do from the beach while sipping a pina colada, I have a bit of a reality check for you.
          Sorry for the late reply--been traveling and not on WF much. As far as sharing, this thread has gotten me thinking about what might have gone wrong in that campaign. I might take another stab myself.... If I decide I'm not interested I'll PM you, but I'd only be at liberty to disclose so much due to the other party involved in the project.

          Glad to hear you beat on Lexis regularly--I'm not a fan of that company. They seem to half-ass a number of things, and in my opinion they are the champions of bad customer service and support.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

      My greatest successes have been in conquering those barriers to entry Kindsvater referred to, and creating my niches as Steve B explained.

      The kinds of IM businesses that create 6 figure paychecks, in my experience, are the ones that you build in response to an unmet market need. In my cases, there was no "demand" in the beginning because my markets were not aware of the idea until I introduced it to them.

      Once these markets see what I offer, fine-tuned for their specific business needs, and outside of the mainstream types of products and services typically aimed at them, they flood in. Click my sig link (Jack Gives Back) for one specific example. I have others.

      Interestingly, I have found that my knack is for doing it the hard way and creating niche industries singlehandedly. When I have tried to enter "commodity" type businesses, I have never had much success.
      Congrats, Excellent example and story:

      Instead of limiting yourself to just trying to find a niche, you took the ultimate step.

      You created your own niche, your own niche market and your own niche service. You Own It! ... You da man!

      Don't be surprised, if someone tries to buy you - when they discover it's not worth there time and energy to try and compete with you. It's the new normal for people who create their own niche product or service these days. Have you noticed?
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      • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
        Thanks again for your input guys. Frankly I'm mildly surprised. It seems the competition votes beat the no competition votes by 70% (10 to 3) by my calculations.

        I would have thought it would have been a little more even, maybe even favoring the no competition crowd.

        That's surprising also because a major part of this industry is built on one assumption. Finding no or low competition markets is -the only way to go ... period, if you want to succeed.

        -And-

        Saturated markets is a four letter word (so-to-speak) that guarantees failure.
        The average person would be shocked to hear "marketers should look for competition."

        Of course, I imagine if you can find or create a market with little or no competition that's ideal. Maybe that's the dream. But obviously that's not most people's story - even those who achieve a measure of success in most cases.

        The reality seems to be the more long term and most achievable strategy comes from being in competitive markets.

        I for one know many people who have spent months, even years searching and waiting to find a low or no competition market, before they do anything.

        I think that's a mistake more people fall into than most people imagine.

        I would have like to have seen more SEO people join the discussion perhaps they would have balanced the results more.

        Maybe I'll reword the question and ask it in the SEO forum and see what the results would be.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

          Frankly I'm mildly surprised. It seems the competition votes beat the no competition votes by 70% (10 to 3) by my calculations.

          I would have thought it would have been a little more even, maybe even favoring the no competition crowd.
          It would, probably, but for one thing (and it's perhaps the single most outcome-determining thing): you're looking at replies from a very small, self-selected group among whom those who have done better in competitive than in non-competitive markets are more likely to choose to respond. I strongly suspect that many people like me, who select our niches partly on the basis of their comparative lack of competition, were less inclined to comment (just as I didn't, myself, until you expressed your surprise at the "results"). In other words, there's a selection-bias, here.

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            you're looking at replies from a very small, self-selected group among whom those who have done better in competitive than in non-competitive markets are more likely to choose to respond.
            No one selected them, they volunteered the info. Both sides were free to respond. Without being right or wrong. All I asked for was people's personal experiences. Not theories or assumptions, to avoid heated debates.

            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            I strongly suspect that many people like me, who select our niches partly on the basis of their comparative lack of competition, were less inclined to comment (just as I didn't, myself, until you expressed your surprise at the "results"). In other words, there's a selection-bias, here.
            That's an angle I didn't expect. With your depth of experience and knowledge you could have been a rich addition to the discussion. Whatever your preference.

            I purposely refrained from giving my own opinion or experience ( when posing the question)for concern it may bias some. So, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say there was a selection-bias. Feel free to explain. Thanks!
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

              No one selected them, they volunteered the info.
              I did say "self-selected".

              Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

              Both sides were free to respond. Without being right or wrong.
              Of course they were. But in any kind of questionnaire/market research, both sides being "free to respond" doesn't make both sides "equally likely to respond". I'm not criticising you for asking, Niche Man - not at all. I was just mentioning (since you expressed your surprise at the apparent imbalance in the results, which I'd already decided, earlier, was predictable, when I originally decided not to respond, myself) that in this case those with one preference were in fact far more likely to respond than those with the other. As we saw.

              Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

              I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say there was a selection-bias. Feel free to explain. Thanks!
              People who like low-competition niches are instinctively much less willing to discuss "niches" in public than people who like high-competition ones. It was psychologically easier for the high-competition enthusiasts to choose to respond than it was for those of us who like to keep our heads under the radar and our shoes on the ground in that particular regard. Nothing more shadowy or complicated than that - but that's a very real, reliable and noticeable phenomenon in the Warrior Forum, and not only in this thread. The fact that most people who comment at all say "X" - especially when you're dealing with an absolutely tiny and self-selected sample-size, doesn't necessarily mean that most people think "X": sometimes there's a silent majority who actually think "Y", and this may be one instance of that. Putting up a forum thread and inviting comment from those who feel like commenting (self-selected) is radically different from stopping 100 people in the street and asking them what they think (mostly not self-selected: people can refuse to answer, after hearing the question, but most don't). That's all I was pointing out.

              .
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              • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                I did say "self-selected".



                Of course they were. But in any kind of questionnaire/market research, both sides being "free to respond" doesn't make both sides "equally likely to respond". I'm not criticising you for asking, Niche Man - not at all. I was just mentioning (since you expressed your surprise at the apparent imbalance in the results, which I'd already decided, earlier, was predictable, when I originally decided not to respond, myself) that in this case those with one preference were in fact far more likely to respond than those with the other. As we saw.



                People who like low-competition niches are instinctively much less willing to discuss "niches" in public than people who like high-competition ones. It was psychologically easier for the high-competition enthusiasts to choose to respond than it was for those of us who like to keep our heads under the radar and our shoes on the ground in that particular regard. Nothing more shadowy or complicated than that - but that's a very real, reliable and noticeable phenomenon in the Warrior Forum, and not only in this thread. The fact that most people who comment at all say "X" - especially when you're dealing with an absolutely tiny and self-selected sample-size, doesn't necessarily mean that most people think "X": sometimes there's a silent majority who actually think "Y", and this may be one instance of that. Putting up a forum thread and inviting comment from those who feel like commenting (self-selected) is radically different from stopping 100 people in the street and asking them what they think (mostly not self-selected: people can refuse to answer, after hearing the question, but most don't). That's all I was pointing out.

                .
                So, you feel the low competition advocates are less likely to respond to the question, because by doing so ... it could attract competition?

                -and

                The high competition advocates were more likely to respond. Because they didn't have the same fear or concerns?
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                  So, you feel the low competition advocates are less likely to respond to the question, because by doing so ... it could attract competition?
                  I don't think so, no. (How could they attract competition without even disclosing the niche?).

                  Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

                  The high competition advocates were more likely to respond. Because they didn't have the same fear or concerns?
                  No ... I don't mean it rudely, but you're putting words into my mouth, now.

                  I didn't say either of those things.

                  Neither of those things was my reason for having (originally) chosen not to reply, and I don't for a moment imagine that I'm the only low-competition enthusiast who made that choice.
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  • Profile picture of the author BizOnTheWeb
    I'm going to argue for more competition here.

    And here's why: competition gives you something to play off of. A very competitive market can have its problems, like compressed margins. But a large number of competitors means there's also room for one more. Consumers haven't settled on a final choice - they're out, they're looking at different choices, they haven't settled on something yet. There's still room for you to carve out a niche.

    On the flip-side, a market with little competition is ripe for disruption - which could be profitable, but usually isn't. Case in point? T-Mobile US.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    I think you are right in recognizing that this is not quite a scientific sample and it is a bit dangerous to try to draw valid conclusions from it.

    However, I am not surprised by the results. From my years of lurking and participating here, it is pretty clear to me that there is a strong herd mentality toward finding "the formula" and then copying it exactly, right down to the market.

    In my opinion, that leaves little room for failure, and any success is going to be as short-lived as it takes for Google to disapprove, saturation to develop or the "next big thing" to arrive.

    Essentially, there are throngs of struggling IMers who are gambling addicts, looking for the magic table they can actually win at.

    My approach is 180 degrees from that. I get to know an industry, go to their conferences, speak personally with my prospective customers, look at emerging problems and think long and hard about what unique abilities I can offer to solve those problems. When I figure it out, I build an actual business, not just a website. And I develop solutions to real-life problems, not just "products" or information. And then I utilize the internet to do my marketing and fulfillment.

    It is a different approach to IM from most people here. I know I am in the extreme minority. But I also know that the next Google update won't wipe me out, that 20 new competitors won't pop up tomorrow morning and that I have built something very real, that stands up in the brick & mortar world as well as the net.
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  • Profile picture of the author WeavingThoughts
    Economics says that perfect competition or a market with intense competition but unlimited sellers, is best for both the buyers and sellers. And this is exactly my experience as well. Exactly why we see so many shopping malls come up. Where many shops/restaurants within a few meter of each other, compete fiercely. Yet, all do well.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve B
      Originally Posted by WeavingThoughts View Post

      Economics says that perfect competition or a market with intense competition but unlimited sellers, is best for both the buyers and sellers.

      "A rising tide lifts all ships in the harbor."

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author MattBrighton
    naturally, the niches with more competition always perform better. Why? Because people are competing for them... They wouldn't compete if there wasn't a good reward at the end.

    Why compete in 10 low niches, just to earn the same amount as one site at the top of it's game in a competetive niche.

    I've been working on a website for 2 years and it's still not top in Google, but when it is, and I'm only a few months away now - It will be an authority website, with LOTS of content, Strong SEO and pulling in about £4000 a month.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robinsh123
    Low competition = Small market size

    That means if you are analyzing any niche and got that there is low competition that would not mean that there is a great market to serve because that may also mean, there is small market or a market that is not responding.

    So play in a competitive market and you'll feel good at last.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    Big and competitive niches have always worked well for me. Very easy to get traffic, lots of products to promote, lots of demand etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    For those who love competition here's something for ya ....

    - About 12,760,000,000 results in Google. Yes, competition with almost 13 billion web pages! Are you salivating yet?

    - An Evergreen product used year around, year after year.

    - Hundreds of millions, if not billions of people have used it at least once.

    - Constant demand.

    - Tons of brand recognition.

    Are you ready to make your fortune?

    Here we go ....

    Your keyword to target is:

    google

    Too narrow you say?

    OK.

    Here's a related niche with additional competition just waiting for you to come in and blow them out of the water:

    Even Google doesn't have one of the top ranks in this ultra-competitive market.

    Your keyword is ...

    search

    Let us know how it goes for ya! Seriously. No need to throw me a few million from all the profits you'll make.

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author MNord
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      For those who love competition here's something for ya ....

      - About 12,760,000,000 results in Google. Yes, competition with almost 13 billion web pages! Are you salivating yet?

      - An Evergreen product used year around, year after year.

      - Hundreds of millions, if not billions of people have used it at least once.

      - Constant demand.

      - Tons of brand recognition.

      Are you ready to make your fortune?

      Here we go ....

      Your keyword to target is:

      google

      Too narrow you say?

      OK.

      Here's a related niche with additional competition just waiting for you to come in and blow them out of the water:

      Even Google doesn't have one of the top ranks in this ultra-competitive market.

      Your keyword is ...

      search

      Let us know how it goes for ya! Seriously. No need to throw me a few million from all the profits you'll make.

      .
      Just because some of us like playing in competitive markets doesn't mean we don't pick our fights carefully . "Competitive vs. non-/low-competition" is fine for a healthy, stimulating discussion. But the downside is that it makes it seem like a black and white issue.

      There are shades of gray--for instance, consolidation. I wouldn't be interested in launching a search engine...but lots of people sell SEO services and make good money. Both are competitive, but the search engine market is highly consolidated. SEO, on the other hand, is about as fragmented as an internet market can get, with everything from well-organized agencies to fly-by-nighters working out of their mom's basements before their shift waiting tables.

      I'll gladly duke it out in a highly competitive but fragmented market. But go up against a market where King Kong is sitting on most of the business? No thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author spancont
    Niches have strong demand because there is a lot of money.

    Lack of competition would mean lack of demand. It kind-of translates into that.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheila Ross
    Well, there is no end of this kind of thoughts and you will always find someone against your opinion. I will suggest you to go for no competition market as it is the best option for a newbie. When you become successful at no competition, you will understand how to play with competitive market.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    I should point out that whilst I said I've done better in competitive markets I still selected sub-niches within those markets.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
      Originally Posted by Stuart Walker View Post

      I should point out that whilst I said I've done better in competitive markets I still selected sub-niches within those markets.
      Good point Stuart. I think maybe that small point gets lost in translation sometimes.

      Seeking a competitive market.
      But drilling down to less or non competitive sub-niches within that (competitive) market.

      Result: Getting the "demand or hot buyers" of the competitive market ... Plus the sub-niche or micro niche benefit of the less or non competitive market.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronaldmd
    It all depends on your skill. If you can compete and be #1, then the more competition the better because product/niche with high competition means that product/niche is high demand. If you can't compete and can't be #1 then choose the one with less competition.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stuart Walker
    Yeah I wouldn't go head to head with slimfast or weight watchers for example as their budget, marketing team and staff far outweigh (excuse the pun) mines.
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