Good Girl With the Mouth of a Sailor

[Devon Brown]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Tiffany, I'm curious what brought this on now -- ONE customer complained and you're thinking of re-working your whole approach? Or have you had a lot of complaints?

Having to make two versions of everything seems like a lot of unnecessary work -- I'd say if people are offended, that's their problem. Like Jeff said, trying to please everybody will drive you insane and make you poor.

What he said! I completely concur.

[BlackWaterBlog]

I say to hell with them. As long as you aren't really directing it at anyone in particular, what's the deal?

[globalpro]

Hey Tiffany,

I preface what I will say with the fact that I have read some of your material (great stuff) and that I am not judging you, but I think that you had to ask may tell you something.

Someone questioned you on your use of profanity and you say you are a Christian, so perhaps the question becomes 'how do you resolve being a Christian and using profanity?'. The Bible is clear concerning coarse words and jokes. This isn't supposed to be part of a Christian's life.

It doesn't mean that there aren't 'the moments', as nobody is perfect.

As a Christian, I found myself in the same dilemma. Was accustomed to using profanity as part of everyday life. It was accepted, but did that make it right? I did find that it was a more understood form of communication. People knew what you were talking about, because they spoke the same language.

This brought me to my second realization. Profanity became a kind of 'fill in the blank' substitution for words. In standing back and examining it's use, I found that people that used profanity to describe anything and everything, really didn't have a good command of the English language. It's easy to use a curse word in place of something that fit.

And please understand, I am not a prude by any means. Profanity is an accepted part of today's culture, at least for most people.

I find it more enjoyable to read something that challenges me with what I call ' the execution of elocution' where words are concerned. A good example here would be almost any post by Paul Myers. The man has it going on.

So, like I started with, I am not judging you, but maybe since someone called you on this, you are finding some self examination is needed. Only you know for sure.

I will say this, as others have already said, be true to yourself first and everything else will fall into place. Personally, I think you are one sharp cookie and really better than this.

Thanks,

John

[TinkBD]

Hi Tiff - This is an interesting discussion about a topic that I have given a lot of thought to...

Thank you, VinceRunza, for giving me a heads up about this thread. ;-)

I will admit, that my language has been known to strip the paint off of walls, BUT I use it in context.

As an attractive blonde in professional technical theatre (including being a union stagehand)and often running all male crews, using strong lanuage was a tool to establish credibility and comradery. ;-)

However, now, I speak about the internet to groups of offline business owners, many of them women, and I DO watch my language carefully.

In fact, in evaluations after one of my presentations, I had two attendees complain bacause I had used the phrase *pissed off* in my presentation... Bless their hearts that their lives are such that this is a major concern for them ! LOLOL

Anyway... I now watch my language carefully in both my written materials and my presentations(no more using *Pissed off*), BUT I am still able give exciting, dynamic, amusing, and most importantly, memorable performances... pretty amazing considering I am talking about web site stats, SEO, and other coma inducing topics to already apprehensive audiences.

Soooo... what points am I making here?

First, I agree with Kevin Riley about professionalism... and making sure that your product appeals to the widest audience...

Along with that, I especially like Kay's point - *You will never lose a customer because you DON'T use WTF, kiss ass, or similar terms.*

Second, I belive that it IS important to key your presentation (written or otherwise) to your audience and their expectations... Context is everything! LOL

This CAN be done, WITHOUT sacrificing your individuality or losing that ever important entertainment factor... it just may take a bit more effort!

Tink

[Yadira Barbosa]

My father was on the army too, and I never ever hear a bad word from his mouth, I suppose he switch the language between work and home : )

I study my engineer career between men (I was the only woman of my generation) and they really take care about their languages in my presence, some times I use not very kind words than they do.

But, I really don't think "kiss an ass" was a terrible or scary sentence, it's almost am every day sentence, but off course its a matter to think about it.

I bought some PLRs from you Tiffany and I really think are great content, very simple an to the point, no fluff and I never found nothing offensive on it.

I really think that every person have their personality, and we need to use it, its more dangerous pretend to be some one and be completely different.

Make 2 versions its more work for you with the same profit, I really think you must be as always, in Spanish it's a sentence that say something like: "I'm not a gold coin to be liked by everybody"

[zimbie]

I tend to agree with Kevin Riley. That type of language seems more suited to personal conversations or a blog instead of an infoproduct that someone pays for. It doesn't really bother me but I can understand how it could ruffle feathers, Christian or not.

But if that is who you are and the way you want to portray yourself then I don't see why you would want to offer two versions.

To me that makes your salty language look like a schtick and makes you seem less authentic.

I would probably go with one or the other instead of offering two versions.


Marsha

[oregongal]

This has sure sparked quite a bit of controversy. Personally, I don't like swearing at all, but I probably wouldn't go to the extent of complaining to an author about it. It strikes me as being more odd to have a choice between a "crude"version and a "clean" one, it would make me think the crude one was really bad and make me wonder why.

I think the idea of testing your customers is a good one, but you also have to be able to write and still get some enjoyment out of it.

[Michael Oksa]

I wholeheartedly voted YES, but only because we are talking about business.

The customers who don't mind "salty" language won't be tuned off if you don't use it. But those who DO mind it may be turned offf if it is there. (Hope that makes sense)

In my opinion, it's business and even the mildest cussing is a turn-off. It shows a lack of professionalism. And as a writer, it shows a certain level of mental laziness. You can still be yourself, and have the same boldness of statement without resorting to cussing as a shortcut.

Don't know if this will help, but I do lots of professional proofreading. From time to time I get writing that is liberally peppered with colorful language. However, I don't want to change the tone of the author's original writing. In that case I try to toneit down one notch. So, if they use the word 'bull$***", then I will change it to BS. But if they use the word "BS" I will change it to "nonsense".

On the other hand, if you're not concerned about appearing professional, then I'd say let 'er rip!

Another anectdote. My wife was approached to be a rep for Mary Kay. I was invited to go along to lunch and hear the sales pitch. The pitch was good, but the woman who was trying to recruit my wife kept using words like a$$, d*m*, p*$$, and h#ll. What bothered me was I got the impression she was using these words on purpose - to sound like she was just a "normal" person like us. But that's not language I use. Needless to say, her langauge came across as manipulative and we didn't sign up.

There is a time and place for such language, but a business publication isn't one of them, IMHO.

All that being said, I wouldn't take the time to complain to a business author who used such language. At the same time, any time those words pop up it IS a distraction for me,. That means the communication becomes less clear. I guess we could argue whether that's my problem or the author's.

All the best,
Michael

[dave830]

Originally Posted by TiffanyDow

1.) Should I do away with ME and tone everything down?

2.) Should I keep being ME - and give them the option of reading a G rated Tiff product?

3.) Or should I say "tough" and be ME no matter what?

Tiffany, if I were the customer you described- I'd have lost more respect for you after your apologies. Offensive language, profuse apologies, then back to offensive language (assuming you don't change your approach). Which is the REAL you?

But please take to heart that crude language doesn't define edginess... it's just a cheap shortcut to get there. You can stir the hearts of a lot more people with your message, than with your f-bombs.

Just keepin' it real.

[TiffanyDow]

Originally Posted by John Collins

...I'll keep reading regardless if it's written by - Pious Tiffany The Good Girl or Tiffany The Sailor or Tiff The Potty Mouth Marketer. How about just be Tiff.

Thanks John I will!

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Most people won't care, but they'll be happy to know who you really are.

Paul Always sage advice Thanks for letting me know it's okay to put Fred on ignore to. LOL (j/k Fred)

Originally Posted by Anna Johnson

Question: did you get the customers you already have by being yourself... or by being someone else?

Hi Anna! By being myself - but I have tamer moments so no telling how they came onboard LOL

Originally Posted by Vince Runza Online

Where is TinkBD when you need her? She's another gal that, in person, will serve up strong language. Her online marketing presence, however, is pure as the driven yellow snow...

I love Tink! I emailed her recently Didn't know she was a fellow dirty mouth. Ah, I see Tink's reply now - good things to consider, Tink!

Originally Posted by Sissy76

Good customers do more than just buy from you, they refer others to your products and interact with you in a positive manner - they most certainly aren't pains in the arse. Someone who compels you to write a g-rated version sure seems like more of a pain in the arse than a good customer to me.

Good point Sissy! This particular customer didn't ask me to refund or whip up a new copy. I did that on my own. She's a good customer I believe and she was truly trying to clue me in for MY well being - at least that's what I got out of it.

Originally Posted by cashcow

Tiff - you are a girl after my own heart. Yes, even though I look like a librarian in my photo, I too, have a potty mouth! In fact, if I bought your product that had 'cussin in it, that would probably make me like you even more. I'd probably want to buy your next product just for the entertainment, but also because I know you put out a quality product (which you do). Lee

See me too! I feel that connection too....

Originally Posted by Kay King

I agree with "be yourself" but don't be your lowest self. I love humor in things I read online - but if it's crude it must also be witty. Otherwise, it's just another potty mouth substituting F for brains kay

Ahh see I don't consider it low. It just is what it is - a part of me. It's the light-hearted me.

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

I have a couple of your products and don't recall being turned off by anything in them, but if I had been offended I doubt I would have said anything to you -- just quietly not purchased again. Could there be others who are doing the same?

Thanks for the insight Jenn - I hear ya.

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

I've read several of your products, and truth be told, I never noticed your "salty" language. Whatever was there was part of the natural flow, unlike some of the less-talented comedians around whose 30-minute set would be 3 minutes long if you eliminated the F-bombs. Or the myriad "Rich Jerk" wannabes who believe the key to his success was being crude.

Exactly...it feels natural...I'm not doing it for shock value.

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

And since you bring up golf, Tiff, it reminds me of a framed cartoon that used to hang in the pro shop of a course I used to play. It showed a stereotypical Japanese man dressed in a wild golf outfit. The caption read, "I learn a new game in Amellica called 'Ah ****'" Back then it was funny, and people understood it was poking fun at golfers in general. Nowadays, the course would be shut down for 'hate speech', I'm guessing.

LMAO!!! Never saw that one but I get it!!

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

The woman who didn't like your language - does she own any of your other products with similar language? If she does, and hasn't complained before this, what's different about this product compared to her previous purchases? Maybe this one was a little saltier than normal...

That may be it. Maybe I was in a mood when I wrote it. lol

Originally Posted by globalpro

... the question becomes 'how do you resolve being a Christian and using profanity?'. The Bible is clear concerning coarse words and jokes. This isn't supposed to be part of a Christian's life.

Hi John!

Good question I have a very close relationship with God on a personal level. There are some very personal reasons I won't go into that explain why I am NOT a fan of organized religion (church, taking the Bible verbatim etc). There is also a very personal reason why I am a VERY strong believer - as in absolute - nothing could shake my faith ever. I do not think I'm going to hell for using cuss words. But that's MY belief I know people could debate the cussing day and night. I can only say that I feel differently

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

The customers who don't mind "salty" language won't be tuned off if you don't use it. But those who DO mind it may be turned offf if it is there. (Hope that makes sense)

Thanks for the input Michael. One thing you said I always get confused about - several people have said cussing is a lazy shortcut or something? It's just a word - shortcut? I don't get it. I hope someone can explain that better. I'm a very competent writer - I am not saying things like, "I'm not someone's launch bit" to take a shortcut - I'm saying it to paint a picture.

Most people have heard the use of the word "bitch" in that manner - meaning making someone work for you like that - so it's a way to explain it. It makes for more concise wording that's more powerful to me than me saying, "I won't join up on someone else's launch just because they tell me to." If I read the two sentences, launch bitch makes more of an impact on ME personally...

[Michael Oksa]

Hi Tiff,

First, let me say I think you are a fantastic writer.

Next, I'll offer my personal take on cussing as a shortcut.

In your posts you kind of backed up my main point. You say it's just 'natural' for you to use certain words. To me that says it is a shortcut; it's easier.

As a fellow writer, I'd suggest challenging yourself to come up with alternative words that have the same impact. What you come up with may never make it to the finished version, but it could help fire up additional synapses.

For example, where you use the b-word other choices could be whore, hussy, slave, tool, zombie, or mindless drone. Not saying those are better, but hose were the ones that sprang to mind.

Another argument in favor of the shortcut theory. When we get angry we tend to use harsher language. Why? Because we don't have the time to consider verbal alternatives. It's easier to swear.

Finally, we all probably know people who swear a lot (I am not saying you fall into this category). I have worked with two people over the years who would use the f-word (along with other words) several times in every sentence. It was hard to understand what they were trying to say, and as a result they came across as having a severely limited mental capacity.

Hopefully I'm not coming across as preachy, just trying to explain the thinking behind cussing as a shortcut.

All the best,
Michael

[EmmaJames]

Hey Tiffany,

Speaking from the side of a consumer (I love to buy stuff)
I've bought from people who tell it like it 'tis and from those
who's copy is as clean as a whistle.

It depends on my mood to tell you the truth.

"Do I feel like the sales letter is talking TO me or talking AT me?"

And it's hard to tell how people are going to react.

So I say, keep being you...but don't cuss me out!

[KenStrong]

You will never lose a customer because you DON"T use WTF, kiss ass or similar terms.

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I think this statement is too general.

While technically correct (obviously nobody is going to tell you they unsubscribed because you never use the phrase "kiss ass" in any of your copy), is it possible you could lose some people by smoothing off too many edges to your personality, thereby making you harder to distinguish from the dozens of other IM lists they're probably on?

[MichaelHiles]

Be yourself. Even in the Christian world.

I remember a sermon preached by Tony Campolo once, where he talked about global starvation deaths of children being something like 80,000 per day. He proclaimed "bull****!" and then went on to admonish the congregation for giving more of a damn about the fact that pastor said "bull****" in his sermon than the fact that 80,000 children die each day for lack of food.

IIRC, I think it was the Apostle Peter who had a cursing mouth.

[Michael Oksa]

Hi Ken,

You're right in that you could lose customers by "smoothing off too many edges". Few people will feel a strong connection to someone who is lifeless and dull.

But you do not need to use WTF or kiss a$$ to keep an edge. Think of Paul Myers' term for grammar cops...wombat! Yes, wombat. I can't think of a better word; it's not cursing, but it absolutely oozes personality.

[Colin Evans]

Hi Ken,

I can't see what cussing has to do with personalities. I know many people who don't cuss but they have wild, devil may care personalities.

I don't mind either way, but in my opinion swearing/cussing is a conversational crutch.

I fall into the "if you don't swear it won't offend those who do" category and so I try to watch my language especially in my products. Although I have been known to drop a few clangers from time to time...

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I think this statement is too general.

While technically correct (obviously nobody is going to tell you they unsubscribed because you never use the phrase "kiss ass" in any of your copy), is it possible you could lose some people by smoothing off too many edges to your personality, thereby making you harder to distinguish from the dozens of other IM lists they're probably on?

[TiffanyDow]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I think this statement is too general.

While technically correct (obviously nobody is going to tell you they unsubscribed because you never use the phrase "kiss ass" in any of your copy), is it possible you could lose some people by smoothing off too many edges to your personality, thereby making you harder to distinguish from the dozens of other IM lists they're probably on?

Damn it Ken! Just as I was starting to weaken and cave you go and become the devil's advocate and make sense about it all.

To some, swearing is juvenile, lacks class, shows an immature vocabulary etc. I think you all know I'm competent with my verbiage. So to me, the use of it is for impact like I said before. And it's natural - it's the real Tiffany Dow. I get a lot of compliments for my "real" emails, etc. People feel like they know me - and they do.

UGH I have no clue right now. Looks like 50/50 for and against toning down in here. But it DOES make me worry about that 50% I might be alienating either way.

[Nightengale]

I think Kevin Riley and Kay King are right on the money.

Quite frankly, I think people's OPINIONS are completely irrelevant. I think the key is to look at this from a business perspective.

You're building a business and while you definitely want to inject your personality into your business, I think it's important to remain professional. Cussing and swearing is not professional (or ladylike). If you want to use them while you're talking, that's up to you, but would you do it if you were talking to a group of prospects and customers? And as Kevin says, there's a difference between using swear words when you're talking, but do you really want to put out products with swear words in them?

Putting out two different products (a G-rated version and an R-rated version) is completely unecessary extra work.

And Kay made a key point: You might lose a customer because of those swear words. But you'll never lose a customer because you DIDN'T use swear words.

Someone else made a good point too: many, many people claim to be Christians and a good portion of them don't know the meaning of the word. If you're a Christian and choose to let your customers know that, be aware that your language will reflect negatively on your faith for a certain portion of your customers, whether you see it that way or not.

What you choose to do it up to you. I just think it's important to be very aware of how it's perceived by your prospects, customers and other business associates (affiliates, vendors, etc.) and act accordingly. (I am NOT advocating hiding your faith or conducting yourself or your business activities in ways which go against yoru faith for business reasons.)

I worked with a Web designer for many years who openly declared her Christian faith on her Web site. I really admired her for being so open. However, it's not something I would choose to do simply because things happen in business and you'll always have a customers and situations which aren't so good. Things happen. That's life (and business). But when those things do happen, even if it was completely out of your control, an honest mistake, etc. it will reflect negatively on your faith. And one rogue customer could really go to town with it.

For that reason, I choose to take Mary Kay's advice (of Mary Kay Cosmetics) and keep my faith separate from my business.

Michelle

[KenStrong]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Quite frankly, I think people's OPINIONS are completely irrelevant.

That's correct -- it's whatever WORKS best for Tiffany.

Cussing and swearing is not professional (or ladylike).

Sounds like an OPINION to me...

Depends on how we define "business" and being "professional." I mentioned George Carlin earlier; obviously I don't think Tiffany should start talking like him, but Carlin was a professional and he ran a business.

I think many in this thread are defining "business" too narrowly -- where you wear a suit and tie and adopt a conservative, sober persona if you want to be taken seriously. While that version of business still applies in many cases, I think online marketers have a lot more latitude than traditional businesspeople.

Also, several people in this thread are warning Tiffany that public cursing reflects badly on her as a Christian... although Tiffany has stated in this thread that she's a Christian, I don't believe she advertises that as part of her marketing, so it's not really relevant to this discussion (Tiffany, correct me if I'm wrong on that).

[ExRat]

Hi Tiff,

I think all of the answers combined give you your answer.

If I can be allowed to speculate - what I think you hinted at OR what I think might be the case (between the lines) is that you DON'T want to lose this person's business and that she might even have sway with other customers of yours.

As many have mentioned, you also don't want to stop being yourself, for your own pleasure - but also from a smart business standpoint.

I agree with one or two posters that have said that to offer two versions is not a good solution. At the least it's putting a seed of doubt in peoples' minds by suggesting that you are capable of being an imitation of yourself. I would guess that people who buy your products/read your emails will feel that part of the deal is that they get the real you.

So I would agree with those that say that you should drop the slang/curses, and replace it with even finer use of the language carefully written to have the same impact - Myers style.

And perhaps it would be a smart move to announce this to your customers/subscribers. Tell them that the dilemma caused you some angst, because you wanted to continue to be the real you (for your and their benefit) but after consideration you felt the best course was to avoid offending those who were offended by it, simply by becoming an even better writer and training yourself to replace the offending words with non-offending ones, but with real care to avoid losing emphasis and quality.

Surely this resolves the issue (with no casualties on either side), clears up any possible misunderstandings or worries, enhances your skills and most of all - proves that you care about your customers and emphasises your professionalism, whilst also showing that you are down to earth and want to stay that way to continue to 'connect' with your readers?

[Jason Moffatt]

I say FUGGEM!

I tend to get the same emails, or calls occasionally. I understand where they are coming from and respect their opinions and beliefs, but I don't alter mine to accompany theirs.

[TiffanyDow]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Depends on how we define "business" and being "professional." I mentioned George Carlin earlier; obviously I don't think Tiffany should start talking like him, but Carlin was a professional and he ran a business.

I think many in this thread are defining "business" too narrowly -- where you wear a suit and tie and adopt a conservative, sober persona if you want to be taken seriously. While that version of business still applies in many cases, I think online marketers have a lot more latitude than traditional businesspeople.

Also, several people in this thread are warning Tiffany that public cursing reflects badly on her as a Christian... although Tiffany has stated in this thread that she's a Christian, I don't believe she advertises that as part of her marketing, so it's not really relevant to this discussion (Tiffany, correct me if I'm wrong on that).

No you're right - I don't advertise it. I don't normally discuss it - the only reason I brought it up here is that it was mentioned by the customer that it was offensive to Christians. I think it could be offensive to anyone - regardless of religion.

I love how you talk about the definition of business being so narrow. I do love the freedom I have online - to connect in a different way that a print author has. I develop a real connection with SO many on my list. I mean I truly do - not just saying that. I email back and forth with them (ask anyone) and they email me when they're having personal trouble, etc. And I really do care and I offer a shoulder/ear, help where I can, etc. I share MY personal stories that are totally irrelevant to business, too - because it's PART of my strategy - to connect to my list as friends. It comes natural to me and it's WHY I love this industry.

Maybe that's my Achilles heel - I'm seeing them as friends when I email and not "customers." I get sassy and silly and let my guard down. I'm really glad this customer felt brave enough to call me out on it. That took guts, I know.

Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread who has sounded off - whether I responded personally to you or not - I appreciate it and heard each individual voice loud and clear. Because so many people thought 2 versions was ridiculous (no one was in favor of that really), I compromised. I slightly cleaned up my original - took out the URL but left a couple of things. I made sure it was still me. But it's safe enough to pass muster with the tough crowd of critics, too.

Can't say I'll always come out clean though.
tiff

[X]

I have my beliefs, which would surprise
and possibly even shock many.

With the sales letter pointed out in post
two I wanted to test level of interest
(and encourage people to read my sales
letter twice).

Not surprisingly, 75% of people choose
to read the X-rated version of my copy,
first, over the PG-13 version. The X-rated
version also out converts the PG-13 copy
2-1.

Gratuitous foul-mouthedness? I think not.

What's important though is that my
attempt is to be authentic - not shocking
and contrived.

People who *perceive* themselves to
be straight arrows probably aren't going to
dig what I do anyway and that's a part
of why I use the language I use -

{Self-righteousness should not be
confused with righteousness.}

Although *some* "Christians" would say
that language is offensive and a turnoff,
does the raw honesty make it wrong?

{I put "Christians" in quotes because
calling yourself something doesn't mean
you are unless you walk the talk}

Raw honesty is my ambition and if it
requires a salty word to communicate
that raw honesty, then I think I'm still on
the side of good even if it isn't the
optimal way of communicating according
to some.

I don't say "****" just to say "****" - I
say it because the word conveys something
that "crap", "bowel movement" or "stool"
does not.

For this very reason such words are
protected by the US Constitution. So really
to argue against them is to argue against
the Constitution and the freedom we all
*claim* to fight for.

But let's be clear - this isn't about my
uncontrollable DESIRES - this is marketing.
This is thought out, calculated and my
bank account would argue - EFFECTIVE.

To be further clear, this isn't a fit for
every marketer in every situation. 95% of
all sales copy I write contains nothing
resembling a semblance of profanity. If
it isn't a part of who you are and it isn't
a part of the market you're trying to reach
then doing it is dumb and it reads dumb.

Now, based on my understanding of scripture,
to judge is a far greater sin than
any foul mouthed utterance.

Some of ya'll need to pray - now - and repent.

I'm serious.

All that aside, what many people put
into their mouths is far worse than
what comes out of them . . . and that's
not just my worldly opinion.

:-)

Have fun deciding what that means.

And Nightengale - no, it's not completely
unnecessary and irrelevant work. That's
like saying Ipods should only come in one
color which, of course, they do not.

Different markets, different Tribes of
people. You've missed the point - go
back to Marketing 101 and do not pass
go.

X

PS - I didn't vote because I think the
correct answer is to say what you need to
say to connect with your ideal customer.

[Michael Oksa]

Hi X,

This isn't a free speech issue. Tiffany, or anyone else, can choose to use whatever words they like. We are talking about the choice of words from a business standpoint.

You mention the S-word, and then mention how a few alternatives don't have the same impact. Maybe they don't, but there are other words that may be as powerful (or more powerful). Example...instead of using crap, you could say festering pile of crap...has plenty of impact and crates a stronger image, IMHO.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that swaering in print is a shortcut. For all the writers out there, why not challenge yourselves to be more creative? Find alternatives to cursing that have the same impact.

This is not a Chrstian issue. The original meaning of profane meant "outside the church", it referred mostly to blasphemy, spiritual curses, and taking the Lord's name in vain. However, after some time, this was extended to include words that had nothing to do with the church, but were considered impolite in certain company.

It's also interesting to note that most of the words we consider vulgar are derived from Anglo-Saxon, while their more "polite" equivalents are derived from French.

One more thing. I am not anti-swearing, but in business it rubs me the wrong way. Heck, I used to be the lead singer (and wrote the lyrics) for a punk rock band; believe me, I was able to let the salty words fly with the best of 'em.

All the best,
Michael

[Cheryl Hines]

I have to admit Tiff that when I read your (very excellent) report, my eyes recoiled - momentarily. I know you and so, like a friend, we let stuff like that pass. And yes, I have relaxed my vocab a lot lately (being an ex Mennonite).

Be you on your blog, Twitter, or casual settings. Idea: Include it your sales letter. A sales letter is often the first place folks meet you and if you get potty mouthed in it, then they won't buy.

But like Kevin said earlier, it just isn't professional in a product. Think of successful brick and mortar businesses - not too many come to mind that use sailor talk, hmmm?

Just my 2

[KenStrong]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Heck, I used to be the lead singer (and wrote the lyrics) for a punk rock band; believe me, I was able to let the salty words fly with the best of 'em.

All right! Let's see the videos, please.

[TiffanyDow]

Hey Michael - the dilemma I was feeling was with info products, I like to see the personalty shine through of the author. Like everyone's using Paul Meyers as an example - we see his personality when we read. I have a friend who will say, "Oh snickerdoodle!" when she stubs her toe instead of "oh ****" because she doesn't curse.

That's her style. But my style is to curse, so to say, "steaming pile of crap" when I would never say that would feel phony to me. Like I was saying, "oh snickerdoodle!" It's not that I'm lacking creativity - it's that I'm being me.

But looking at th stats here, it looks like me offends about 50% of the online population LOL. Another issue my customer took me to task about was that I was a WOMAN and that appalled her - that I had talked like that. Now that part admittedly annoyed me because it always has - I'm no feminist but if a man can say it, so can I.

I am curious about something because you're giving me lots of good insight. You say, "I am not anti-swearing, but in business it rubs me the wrong way." I want to know why. I can see the POV of people who are offended by swearing, period - but with you, Riley, etc., who say it's okay normally but not in an info product, why would that suddenly offend you? Truly not understanding, not being difficult here

Tiff

[globalpro]

Tiffany,

You are to be commended for really taking everything here to heart. I appreciate the fact that you are weighing out what your peers think, but I think at the end of the day, you have to do what you feel is right.

It doesn't change my thoughts or the way I view things, but only you know what is right for you. What I think is really inconsequential when the day is done. Let your conscience be your guide.

If nothing else, you have really opened up a thought provoking thread.

Thanks,

John

[X]

Hi Michael,

If you think I'm making this either a
free speech issue or a religious issue,
then please re-read my post.

FACT: In some places with some
products I am able to claim a unique
place in the market that makes me
more money using more "questionable"
language. Period.

I ain't stupid. ;-) And, although I
can't claim to be the inspiration for
the public "Frank Kern" character, you
think maybe there are some similarities?

NOTE: X was X before Frank Kern 2.0
became Frank Kern 2.0. I'm just sayin'.

Some of the people here who claim to
be arguing "this is about business" are
not seeing this in an objective manner
that is about business.

I respect everyone's personal preferences -
but this is *not* a conversation about
personal preferences.

X

[JoMo]

I have to say I like it when people are themselves and laid back too. I respect it, but I know that a LOT of people are offended very easily, and I think that is just sad.

[GarrieWilson]

It depends.

Was that type of language used on the sales letter? If it was rosey, people wouldn't expect it in the product.

[mylelo]

Hello Tiff, I my self don't curse in front of laddies and the little ones, but in the IM world is almost impossible no to run it to cursing people, I my self had bought a couple products from you and I haven't been disapointed for anything on them so that tells you something, that being your self has been giving you business and will continue to do so, I have 3-5 year old grandkids that curse more than what I do so what? keep up and do not care what one person may think of your writing personality, though, what you did on the refund and giving at clean version whas a very smart move, I do believe that customers should be taken care and one angry customer I'm sure will be easy to please.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by TiffanyDow

Hey Michael - the dilemma I was feeling was with info products, I like to see the personalty shine through of the author. Like everyone's using Paul Meyers as an example - we see his personality when we read. I have a friend who will say, "Oh snickerdoodle!" when she stubs her toe instead of "oh ****" because she doesn't curse.

That's her style. But my style is to curse, so to say, "steaming pile of crap" when I would never say that would feel phony to me. Like I was saying, "oh snickerdoodle!" It's not that I'm lacking creativity - it's that I'm being me.

But looking at th stats here, it looks like me offends about 50% of the online population LOL. Another issue my customer took me to task about was that I was a WOMAN and that appalled her - that I had talked like that. Now that part admittedly annoyed me because it always has - I'm no feminist but if a man can say it, so can I.

I am curious about something because you're giving me lots of good insight. You say, "I am not anti-swearing, but in business it rubs me the wrong way." I want to know why. I can see the POV of people who are offended by swearing, period - but with you, Riley, etc., who say it's okay normally but not in an info product, why would that suddenly offend you? Truly not understanding, not being difficult here

Tiff

Hi Tiff, I understand your point, and not asking you to be anything but yourself. When it comes to writing you have the benfit of having more time to select which words you will use. I could be wrong, but I really think you could be true to yourself without resorting to certain words. Would you use them in every situation? A job interview? In front of a judge? In front of a class of kindergartners?

I'm not trying to be facetious, but wondering if there ARE times when you don't use such language. If there are, then it could be as easy as extending that self-imposed (maybe subconscious) rule to your info-products as well.

You are right on the money about her taking you to task for using certain words because you're a woman. Imagine the direction this thread could have taken if you made that as one of your main points in your OP!

As for saying, "I am not anti-swearing, but in business it rubs me the wrong way." I don't think you're being difficult at all. I'll do my best to explain what I'm getting at. I want to be clear that I chose the phrase "rubbed the wrong way" on purpose, and not "offended". It doesn't offend me, but it does distract me (yes, even a**, he**, and d**n).

Why? I believe it all comes down to expectations. In a way, when that language is used it's like the author is saying the READER is not professional - that they will only understand coarse language. To a lesser extent it's about respect. Use words that show you respect the reader, and because you don't know how they will take "colorful" language, it may be a better move (from a business standpoint) to find alternatives. Again, those alternatives don't have to be dull or weak.

Hope that all makes sense, I never thought this deeply about this issue until now.

Originally Posted by X

Hi Michael,

If you think I'm making this either a
free speech issue or a religious issue,
then please re-read my post.

I ain't stupid. ;-) And, although I
can't claim to be the inspiration for
the public "Frank Kern" character, you
think maybe there are some similarities?

Some of the people here who claim to
be arguing "this is about business" are
not seeing this in an objective manner
that is about business.

I respect everyone's personal preferences -
but this is *not* a conversation about
personal preferences.

X

I did re-read it, and got the impression that you were the one mentioning the Constitution...

For this very reason such words are
protected by the US Constitution. So really
to argue against them is to argue against
the Constitution and the freedom we all
*claim* to fight for.

As I said, it's NOT a free speech issue, though you seemed to want to make it so.

The following paragraphs made it look (to me) like you were raising religious viewpoints as well...

Although *some* "Christians" would say
that language is offensive and a turnoff,
does the raw honesty make it wrong?

{I put "Christians" in quotes because
calling yourself something doesn't mean
you are unless you walk the talk}

Now, based on my understanding of scripture,
to judge is a far greater sin than
any foul mouthed utterance.

Some of ya'll need to pray - now - and repent.

How are those statements NOT religious?

For the record, I don't think you're stupid.

I still think this IS about business, that's what we discuss here.

And, finally, as to this not being a discussion about personal preferences: I couldn't disagree more. That's exactly what it is...from post #1. That's why it's a poll.

Not trying to argue, just sayin' is all.

All the best,
Michael

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Sounds like an OPINION to me...

Point taken. Yep, that WAS an opinion. Well, at least the part about being ladylike...

And my entire rambling about Christians and profanity were my observations too. I only brought it up since Tiffany mentioned her customer had brought it up.

I heartily second everything Michael Oksa is saying. "Exactly!" Professionalism is paramount. You can be you and be unique without using profanity. (Yes, my opinion.) I'm not criticizing Tiffany personally (all of us on the WF respect Tiffany), but as a writer, I, too, feel that profanity is generally a lazy stand-in for more creative terms. It DOES take work to find alternative terms to express the same thought and slant for what you're trying to say WITHOUT using profanity. (I'm bad about this too and often struggle to use more creative terms to express what I'm trying to say.)

Cheryl Hines,

An ex-Mennonite? I never expected to see any Mennonites on the WF! I'm not Mennonite and never was, but my dad's family is and it's a big part of my heritage. I just never expected to have THAT in common with a Warrior!

Michelle

[BlueSquares]

Yes, we're marketing.
Yes, we have "voices".
Yes, we have individuality.

BUT, we need to make our products as approachable as possible to the general public. And I feel that involves abstaining from obscene or doubtful language. For example, what if a teenager buys your product and their parents pick it up?

Also, the day may come when someone may call upon you as an expert. This could be a newspaper, major magazine or a TV network. Do you really want your books filled with questionable content?

How about when you hand down your teachings to your children, do you want them to read this material?

I personally don't want this...but others may.
I curse every so often...but I especially try not to curse around children, elders, etc. It's a respect thing. And I never use questionable content in my products.

Here's the way I see it:
You walk into a store and run into [insert really important person that can help your career/campaign].
Would you rather be wearing a dirty shirt with shorts and sandals?
Or would you rather be wearing a well-ironed shirt with trousers and decent shoes?

Your products are a direct representation of you. You may just be killing off JVs with your approach.

[X]

Michael,

I think you're confused so let me put
this into a different context.

I bought a PLR product from you.

I improved the writing, added some
salty language, turned around and
sold it as bonus with another product
and probably made about $100,000 more
from it than you did selling it as a
WSO.

It was good vanilla information to
begin with - then I made it something
people wanted. I delivered information
while entertaining the reader, which is
something most people attempting to
be "professional" don't understand.

If this is about what you and I personally
think Tiffany should post on her blog
and it became something else, all
apologies.

I think that in this context Tiffany
should just be herself. And if Tiffany
being Tiffany means a "profane" word
slips out now and then, then that's
just Tiffany. Enough people will love
her for her willingness to be real that
I don't think the others matter.

I'll take an honest and open person
willing to put their real self out there
in front of the world over someone who's
trying to contrive an image of
"professionalism" any day of the week.

And I suspect ;-) that I am not alone.

X

[madmagician]

Originally Posted by BlueSquares

Also, the day may come when someone may call upon you as an expert. This could be a newspaper, major magazine or a TV network. Do you really want your books filled with questionable content?

Guessing you haven't heard of Skinny Bitch or Dooce. Entertainment talks and sells, too.

Then again depending on the product you're selling or people you're targeting, you may not have a big enough audience to get wiggle room to make good money ...but you'll always find people who are "like you".

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by X

Michael,

I think you're confused so let me put
this into a different context.

I bought a PLR product from you.

I improved the writing, added some
salty language, turned around and
sold it as bonus with another product
and probably made about $100,000 more
from it than you did selling it as a
WSO.

It was good vanilla information to
begin with - then I made it something
people wanted. I delivered information
while entertaining the reader, which is
something most people attempting to
be "professional" don't understand.

If this is about what you and I personally
think Tiffany should post on her blog
and it became something else, all
apologies.

I think that in this context Tiffany
should just be herself. And if Tiffany
being Tiffany means a "profane" word
slips out now and then, then that's
just Tiffany. Enough people will love
her for her willingness to be real that
I don't think the others matter.

I'll take an honest and open person
willing to put their real self out there
in front of the world over someone who's
trying to contrive an image of
"professionalism" any day of the week.

And I suspect ;-) that I am not alone.

X

Wow! I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try.

So, just by adding salty language you're impying it makes a product better? Nevermind the supposition that somehow my products are "vanilla" and not something people want the way they are.

You also seem to be suggesting that those who DON'T use salty language aren't being themselves. I put my "real self" out there all the time...and I don't use cursing...I would say that makes me more "real" than someone who doesn't even use a "real" name. No?

Again, just sayin'



All the best,
Michael

[KenStrong]

Oh-oh, the G-raters are pulling ahead in the poll -- c'mon gutter-mouths, get out there and vote!

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Oh-oh, the G-raters are pulling ahead in the poll -- c'mon gutter-mouths, get out there and vote!

Admittedly, I'm biased, but I am also counting all of the votes for "Both" as a vote in favor of a cleaned up version being available.



It was running pretty even so far, with a slight edge to the Pro-fanes (how's that for a term?). Then about an hour or two ago, it switched to a slight lead for the Anti-fanes.

It has actually turned out to be an entertaining and informative discussion.

~Michael

[X]

Try harder.

X

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Wow! I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try.

So, just by adding salty language you're impying it makes a product better? Nevermind the supposition that somehow my products are "vanilla" and not something people want the way they are.

You also seem to be suggesting that those who DON'T use salty language aren't being themselves. I put my "real self" out there all the time...and I don't use cursing...I would say that makes me more "real" than someone who doesn't even use a "real" name. No?

Again, just sayin'



All the best,
Michael

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by TiffanyDow

Hey Warriors!

I have a debate I want to open up with you. Okay I'm a good girl, right? As far as you know anyway LOL.

But I grew up golfing. With retired military men. I shoot the ****. I cuss. I laugh at crude jokes. I TELL crude jokes.

So in my info products, I sometimes use phrases like "kissing ass" or for example, I use an example of an adult website URL but in a funny way (not real).

I got scolded by a great customer today for that - and so I refunded her, sent her a clean version I created quickly, and apologized and then put the clean version in the with crude version with a READ ME FIRST note so they'll know which one to choose based on their preferences.

I want to know:

1.) Should I do away with ME and tone everything down?

2.) Should I keep being ME - and give them the option of reading a G rated Tiff product?

3.) Or should I say "tough" and be ME no matter what?

I know I won't do #3 - I personally like the second option but I wonder, could THAT even hurt me?

I know that many of my customers are Christians. I am a Christian too - but I'm not perfect. I do cuss, etc. I don't get offended very easily and in fact PERSONALLY I like reading info products, blogs, etc where people are laid back and themselves - crude or not.

What say YOU, Warriors?
I respect your $0.02

Tiff the Potty Mouth Marketer

When you are selling anything, whether it be a car, a house or your services, you have to be middle of the road.


Not many people will buy a pink bmw for instance. Some will not mind, some will like it some wont have anything to do with it.

You cant readily sell a house with lime green rooms to just everyone, not everyone likes it.

You can't be 'you' with just everyone. Some will like it, some will not and if you want to hit the maximum amount of people in your market to get a possible sale, you need to either be totally benign (sp?) or find a middle ground where you are still you...but not as much you.

[Colin Evans]

Originally Posted by X

I'll take an honest and open person
willing to put their real self out there
in front of the world over someone who's
trying to contrive an image of
"professionalism" any day of the week.

I'll take and honest and open person willing to put their real self out there in front of the world, but I'll have a lot more respect for them if they make the effort to respect me by not using foul language... The odd slip here and there is ok, and in the right situation can sometimes be amusing.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Wow! I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try.

So, just by adding salty language you're impying it makes a product better? Nevermind the supposition that somehow my products are "vanilla" and not something people want the way they are.

You also seem to be suggesting that those who DON'T use salty language aren't being themselves. I put my "real self" out there all the time...and I don't use cursing...I would say that makes me more "real" than someone who doesn't even use a "real" name. No?

Again, just sayin'



All the best,
Michael

Michael, I think you are missing the point that X was making.

A lot of the information is the same no matter how you wrap it up.

Why is it that some people outsell others when they are selling the same information?

They say it differently.
They connect with the reader.
They entertain making the experience better for the reader.

Heck, I don't even know what foul language is anymore. You see actors on television using words that were considered foul and taboo a long time ago.

[JohnMcCabe]

Reading the replies since my initial post brought something out of the murky depths of my memory.

Many years ago, there was a TV show called "The White Shadow", about a white former NBA player coaching at an inner-city high school.

In the episode this discussion brought to mind, the team is playing a team from a white, suburban school, and the team is racking up 'unsportsmanlike conduct' fouls for their ghetto language. Finally, the team doesn't have enough players left and forfeits the game.

At practice the next day, the coach informs the team that any player who fouled out for cursing would be suspended from the team, as it was a stupid reason to lose a game. He challenged them to come up with something else...

In the big climax, the team is playing another white, suburban team. The team's star player is intentionally fouled, with the intent to cause a repeat of the forfeit incident. This large, very ferocious looking black ballplayer glares at the white kid threateningly, stomps his foot, and yells...


"PEANUT BUTTER!!!"


and walks away.

The white kids were so confused, the inner city team won easily...

Tiffany, thanks for the 'snickerdoodle' reference. That's what brought this scene to mind.

[dave830]

Tiffany,

Just want to say that in addition to your great writing, I appreciate you putting yourself out there with your OP. You had to know this was gonna be one of "those" posts...nice and feisty. And your willingness to hear everyone out- admirable.

Seems to me the your poll needed a 4th option, somewhere in between "G-Rated" and "To heck with them". Don't think I'd vote for either of them... but then again some of the best copywriters ever wouldn't fit in them either.

But to make my point- your realness and writing in this thread has been quite compelling- we all got to know you a lot better- and I'd say it was all pretty much PG-13!

Dave

[AmyBrown]

I think you can be equally engaging without the salty language. Most people have a filter and adjust their speech in front of certain people or in certain settings. This doesn't make you any less real. Simply expand the filter to include customer contact.

Amy

[TiffanyDow]

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

It depends.

Was that type of language used on the sales letter? If it was rosey, people wouldn't expect it in the product.

No sales copy - just and email. I ran a WSO that has the word ass in it though. I think the email did, too.

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Oh-oh, the G-raters are pulling ahead in the poll -- c'mon gutter-mouths, get out there and vote!

LMAO Ken you need to be a standup. I love your posts.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Heck, I don't even know what foul language is anymore. You see actors on television using words that were considered foul and taboo a long time ago.

Yep - in fact, I was shocked to see Oxygen (a woman's station) with a new TV show called Dance Your Fat Ass Off! And they're going to be dancing on stripper poles, too! Shocking to many - funny to me. It's just not even a curse word to me anymore.

Originally Posted by dave830

Just want to say that in addition to your great writing, I appreciate you putting yourself out there with your OP. You had to know this was gonna be one of "those" posts...nice and feisty. And your willingness to hear everyone out- admirable....But to make my point- your realness and writing in this thread has been quite compelling- we all got to know you a lot better- and I'd say it was all pretty much PG-13! Dave

Thanks Dave - I appreciate that and it has been a great eye opening discussion! Everyone was fairly tame

BTW as an update - my customer was very happy with my reply and remedy.
tiff

[baker58]

Oh hum bug! It really wasn't that serious.

I'm the customer Tiffany is referring to. I privately wrote that message to Tiffany because I DO like her products - that's why I buy them. However, when I spend hundreds of dollars with someone I am entitled to let them know how I feel. Now does that mean she has to change her style of writing or put her personality on hold because of me? Absolutely not. (As a matter of fact, she could have just trashed the message without even reading it.)

However, it does mean this, *I* have a choice of whether or not I want to continue spending money with someone who I feel - feels the need to use profanity in explaining something to *me*. At that point - I make the decision not Tiffany.

Another thing, this isn't about Christianity. I'm an ecommerce solutions advisor -- plus I have a HUGE list of Christians that came about via my radio show and directory for Christians in Business. Just because I boldly proclaim who I am doesn't mean I'm holier than thou, spotless or judgmental - my beliefs and preference are just that - my own - (along with all my shortcomings as well.) whomever chooses otherwise, that's their *own* decision as well.

My point to Tiffany was that I could not just let that particular list know (she didn't ask me to either, I WANTED to) about what she had just released because of the profanity, etc. - quite simply - they just don't go for that and because of it - there's some great information they would miss. Perhaps a few of them have the product because they know Tiffany just like I know Tiffany because again, real Christians don't proclaim to be spotless -- no one is -- I just wanted to boast about her incredible product and couldn't to that 'particular list'. No biggie. Nor was I going to pass it along to my other clients because it's opposite of who I say *I* am.

Another thing, YES I said it - as a Woman - *I* don't think it's lady like. There I said it. And no, it doesn't mean that in my opinion Men are excused either, LOL! Everybody is entitled to their own opinions - I was (entitled to mine) and I stated mine -- to her.

How Tiffany chooses to conduct her business is her own right and as I stated before, the decision on whether or not I choose to continue to promote and/or purchase her products is *mine.* Truly it won't make or break her business.

I never asked her to create two separate products and I really don't believe she should EVER do that. The point is this, be comfortable in your own skin -- however, as business professionals and we are that (even online) we have to ask ourselves, are we here because we need to show someone our personalities or are we here to conduct business? My mentor once shared with me that they were not so much concerned with what people said, it was the one's who weren't saying anything. What that meant was, it was easy to service the ones who were talking but what about the ones you didn't talk? Were they still there? And when they did leave, what was their reason?

I agree that you can't please all of the people all of the time, but I try to please as many as I can when it comes to business because it's just that - business.

With that said, Tiffany, do your thing... do what makes you happy and be content with the audience that prefers your style.

*I* personally thank you and commend you for making the change for little ole me - it showed me just how much you care - even with your busy schedule - you stopped and made a difference for just one person.

All the best,
Regina

[TiffanyDow]

Ack Regina! I wasn't gonna say who said it! I just wanted to see what others think from a business standpoint...not to get support, to truly learn which way is best to perform online. LOL

Originally Posted by baker58

*I* personally thank you and commend you for making the change for little ole me - it showed me just how much you care - even with your busy schedule - you stopped and made a difference for just one person.

All the best,
Regina

Well Regina you've been a good customer for a long time and like I said in my email, I think you deserved the refund (even though you didn't ask for it - and in fact were adamant that you be able to pay LOL).

I hope you don't think I was making a huge fuss over it - I just thought it raised a great debate topic for those of us info marketing and as you can see, it sure did do that - tons of varying opinions going on here.

Thanks for coming in though and sharing your own insight into how you felt, why etc. I'm still glad I gave you a clean version. I hope I "did right by you" because having you as a customer does mean a lot to me - whether you promote the report to a list or not. I just hated to have offended you, period. I don't like making people feel negative in any way.

Tiff