Rant about product launches, affiliates and upsells

by Anna Johnson

Posted: 16 years ago 27 replies

INTERNET MARKETING

Another big launch in the Internet marketing niche... and another bunch of rants about numerous affiliates promoting the launch... affiliates using the same sales copy... and the promoter trying to upsell customers.

I love this forum for the vigorous debate we so often see... but what about some rigor to go along with the vigor? What about some constructive criticism instead of just criticism?

A major IM launch is a terrific opportunity for us to analyze, discuss and learn from the marketing tactics involved, especially since many of us are not just marketers but also potential customers.

So rather than just focus on WHAT the promoters and affiliates did... why not ask WHY they did what they did, and what were the RESULTS? And whether these are tactics we might try in our own marketing.

A few juicy topics arising from the Stomping The Search Engines 2 launch that come to my mind are:

1. The offer

As a potential customer, did this appeal to you? As a marketer, have you tried - or will you try - something like this? Why do you think StomperNet went with this offer, rather than simply promote the course for $497?

2. The upsells

Did these appeal to you, deter you from ordering, or have no effect? Were there too many upsells or just the right number? What did you think of the price points of each of the upsells? Why do you think these particular offers were chosen?

3. The affiliate offers

Did many affiliate offer bonuses? Why do you think they did or did not? Who did you end up ordering through and why?

4. Affiliates using the same copy

If you received the same promotional copy from a number of different marketers... did that turn you off each of those marketers? Why or why not? Why do you think they used the same copy - a symptom of the affiliates not having enough time, imagination, skill, etc to send something better?

5. The results

Twenty Warriors can voice their opinions about what they love/hate... but how representative are they? What were the actual results achieved by the launch? Obviously I don't know the financial results... but as Mike Filsaime indicated in an email he sent to his list, StomperNet had over 7,000 orders within 18 hours and were set to achieve 10,000 within 24 hours.

Since I am an affiliate I am also privy to some other details which indicate that the upsell strategy has not just met - but exceeded expectations. Does that alter your opinion - as a marketer - of the upsells?

Over to you!

#affiliates #launches #product #rant #upsells

Chris W. Sutton

16 years ago

Whatever Anna says, I always agree with because she is my Aussie buddy! BTW, she has a fantastic newsletter that I really like alot.

I'm sorry if I embarrassed you, Anna, but I just have to tell it like it is!

Take care!

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Anna Johnson

16 years ago

Not exactly the response I was expecting... but I'll go with it. Thanks Chris

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Jeffery

16 years ago

Are you specifically wanting to discuss "Stomping The Search Engines 2 launch" or are you seeking a general discussion about product launches, affiliates, and upsells?

As a whole, I considered the ""Stomping The Search Engines 2 Launch" marketing methods to be plain vanilla. In other words, what we Internet Marketers see all the time when a group of marketers pitch to other marketers.

Jeffery 100% :-)

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J. Barry Mandel

16 years ago

Great point here Anna

We can turn the complainers into active participants and talk about...marketing.

A novel idea, I hope others act on it!

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jjpmarketing

16 years ago

The offer, of course was very good. STSE2 for free + shipping. The $39 magazine per month, while tempting... I'll probably opt out of because I was only interested in STSE2.

The upsells, while I understand why they did it... were overkill. 1 upsell is sufficient enough. I am not one that favors high end upsells... especially since you are already getting $39 per month out of me if I don't cancel.

The amount of upsells were extremely annoying. As a customer it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. If it weren't such a reputable company... I would probably have ditched the offer entirely. I would never present this kind of marketing towards my customers, because of how it made me feel.

I am more interested in retaining quality customers... rather than potentially only getting one sale out of them, because I pissed them off with 15 upsells on a free offer... to never hear from them again.

I for one believe you should just offer solid value and quality content... and charge what the product is worth. Don't give it away and blast me with 15 upsells.

As for the STSE2 offer... I would have taken the offer... and been more inclined to take them up on an upsell a few months down the road. Immediate upsells are annoying. I believe if you establish a relationship with a customer and prove your quality... then an upsell later on will have higher conversion rates... rather than the immediate upsell.

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Jason Moffatt

16 years ago

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I believe if you establish a relationship with a customer and prove your quality... then an upsell later on will have higher conversion rates... rather than the immediate upsell.

Nope, conversions would be much lower then what they are currently pulling in if you tried to upsell later down the road.

The fact of the matter is, these people have their credit card out NOW, and are in the BUYING MOOD NOW!

If you knew the numbers that they are converting at after the first 2 days, I think you'd quickly eat your words.

I do agree that it's great to establish relationships and all that stuff. But most of the people subjected to this offer already know who StomperNet is, and what they are all about. The relationship has already been established in some fashion.

For them to not offer upsells (which were great value too), they would of lost out on a ton of money.

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Anna Johnson

16 years ago

If you knew the numbers that they are converting at after the first 2 days, I think you'd quickly eat your words.

Yes, pity we can't share that info. But what I can say is that of the people who ordered through MY link, the ratio of upsells to the free offer was greater than 1:1. I don't have stats on who ordered what yet, but either they all went for the upsell offer or a few ordered several upsells. I was particularly impressed given that I have only a small IM list (just started the IM newsletter a couple of months back).

Are you specifically wanting to discuss "Stomping The Search Engines 2 launch" or are you seeking a general discussion about product launches, affiliates, and upsells?

The STSE2 launch has certainly prompted my post, but no reason to limit the thread to that particular launch.

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ExRat

16 years ago

Hi Anna,

Another one to add to your list of topics -

What do the people who paid $800 PM think about the content they paid for being 'given away' for the price of shipping and a phone call to cancel the subscription?

I don't know the specifics of what is on offer vs what was paid for vs how old the info is, but this thought crossed my mind.

And a question of my own - as someone who has promoted it, have you read the info that is currently being offered? Either as a paid stomper member or by obtaining it via this offer?

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Anna Johnson

16 years ago

Hi Roger,

I can answer your questions

Firstly, I was a member of StomperNet when it launched in late 2006 and have also reviewed Stomping The Search Engines 2 (STSE2).

The full StomperNet program covers much, much more than SEO and, as a consequence, is quite different to STSE2. The home-study component of StomperNet alone is more comprehensive. For example, it includes stuff about running an ecommerce business. And then there's the membership program which goes way beyond SEO to cover all kinds of things related to Internet marketing and business building/management. So, all in all, SN and STSE2 are quite different.

As for STSE2 itself, yes I went through the DVDs and The Net Effect prior to promoting it. It provides a solid, very focused, education on SEO.

Incidentally, that's an interesting question you raise about how people would think if they saw others getting something for free that they had paid for.

I wrote an article about this recently. Imagine your favorite clothing store is running a deal where you get 25% off everything in-store. You find a pair of jeans you love and are ecstatic about getting them for 25% off. A few days later you catch up with a friend who also got the same pair of jeans from the same store. Only they got 50% off.

So... how does that make you feel? Resentful, jealous... or happy for your friend? After all, you were happy with the value you got when you bought your jeans for 25% off... so why should you be resentful or jealous because someone else gets a better deal?

I reckon how someone feels about a situation like this says a lot about their mentality - whether it's one of scarcity or abundance - and their likelihood of succeeding in their business, career, etc. There's always someone who is better looking, has more money, is smarter, gets a better deal, etc than us. Just as there are tons of people who get and have less than us.

But rather than waste energy and time being resentful of people who seem to have more than us, we're better off focusing on how we can learn and succeed based on what we do have.

(Btw, that's NOT directed at you Roger, just my general ideas on the topic!)

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ExRat

16 years ago

Hi Anna,

Thanks for answering and for adding the disclaimer at the end (a good example of how to communicate via this medium successfully

I wrote an article about this recently. Imagine your favorite clothing store is running a deal where you get 25% off everything in-store. You find a pair of jeans you love and are ecstatic about getting them for 25% off. A few days later you catch up with a friend who also got the same pair of jeans from the same store. Only they got 50% off.

So... how does that make you feel? Resentful, jealous... or happy for your friend? After all, you were happy with the value you got when you bought your jeans for 25% off... so why should you be resentful or jealous because someone else gets a better deal?

I reckon how someone feels about a situation like this says a lot about their mentality - whether it's one of scarcity or abundance - and their likelihood of succeeding in their business, career, etc. There's always someone who is better looking, has more money, is smarter, gets a better deal, etc than us. Just as there are tons of people who get and have less than us.

But rather than waste energy and time being resentful of people who seem to have more than us, we're better off focusing on how we can learn and succeed based on what we do have.

I don't disagree with your point and I think the 'jeans' example is a good one.

The reason I mention it is because there is a line that can very easily be crossed. For example, if someone used certain wording on their original offer -

EG

'this is the best offer you will get on this product ever'

...then it HAS been the case where people have proceeded to make better offers on products at a later date, when the product is not so hot and by doing so they have contradicted their own promises made on the original salespage (which by then has usually been removed).

I have seen this done many times in similar and also different ways, and in those cases, I don't think resentment towards the person who intentionally misled is a bad thing.

It's quite common practice in IM to reduce outlay on products that have 'passed their sell-by date' and I have found that it's also quite common to find upon investigation that the original buyers were misled.

People often get carried away when applying scarcity to the original offers and seem to forget this once the original salespage is down and they want to gain as much income/mileage as possible from their redundant products.

My own disclaimer - my interest is not from a negative/scarcity point of view/mindset but because I have an interest in marketer's 'tricks of the trade' - because I aim to be as successful as possible, and knowledge is power

I didn't know anything previously about the details of this offer so I was curious as to how the 'free' stuff compared to the 'paid' stuff - which you have kindly explained.

Personally, I like to adopt an elitist/snob-like attitude towards these things - if I am going to spend my time studying a subject, then I would rather spend it on the paid quality stuff, rather than the morsels that are thrown at the hoop-jumping-freebie-seekers.

I don't have this P.O.V. because I am elitist or snobby in general - it just makes damn good business sense I.M.O. and demonstrates that I value my time and allocate it wisely. And I also hope that anyone else who is currently prepared to jump through hoops purely to grab the free 'bait' has a goal of one day surpassing this point too...and perhaps have a go at moving the free line for profit, themselves.

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Anna Johnson

16 years ago

The reason I mention it is because there is a line that can very easily be crossed. For example, if someone used certain wording on their original offer -

EG

'this is the best offer you will get on this product ever'

...then it HAS been the case where people have proceeded to make better offers on products at a later date, when the product is not so hot and by doing so they have contradicted their own promises made on the original salespage (which by then has usually been removed).

Oh yes, I agree with you there. That's in the same vein as saying there is only a limited number of something e.g. "we only have 100 of these available"... and then releasing more at a later date.

Personally, I like to adopt an elitist/snob-like attitude towards these things - if I am going to spend my time studying a subject, then I would rather spend it on the paid quality stuff, rather than the morsels that are thrown at the hoop-jumping-freebie-seekers.

Yep, and I'd say you are not alone. Many of us don't regard a product as having quite so much value if it's cheap or free.

Also, there's always some kind of "price" to be paid for any given offer:

-- Someone who wants to camp out all night to get front row tickets at a concert... has to put up with camping all night. Another would rather have a nice night in the comfort of their home and pay more for the tickets.

-- One person is willing to stay in back-packer hotels in order to travel around the world on the cheap... another would prefer to pay more to stay in 5 star hotels.

-- One person is willing to pay for an ad-free ezine... while another would prefer to accept the ads in order to subscribe to a free ezine.

And so on.

To me this reinforces the need to (a) be very clear about who your target market is, and (b) if you want to appeal to more segments, have different options available for them.

Now THIS is a marketing discussion!

I'd say that was part of the risk Brad and Andy were taking when they decided to offer STSE2 for free.

Ver

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ExRat 16 years ago

Hi Anna,

Now THIS is a marketing discussion!

I can soon sort that out!

This tickled me -

One person is willing to stay in back-packer hotels in order to travel around the world on the cheap... another would prefer to pay more to stay in 5 star hotels.

I was travelling around the world and was staying near friends in Perth about 4 years ago. They were about to move to Queenstown in NZ and I was due to stay near them again once they had settled in. So I went via Sydney.

I was travelling on my own and my friend told me I was a wet blanket for staying in posh hotels wherever I went so I agreed to try out the Jolly backpacker (or something like that) in King's Cross.

On the first night I mingled with the locals living at the hostel and drank beer with them outside while we passed a guitar around.

But pretty soon after a few beers a fight kicked off so I decided to take a stroll and get some dinner instead. I wandered past beggars, junkies and got propositioned by ladies of the night. Then I went to watch some late night football at a pub with one of the hostel incumbents, but because he was skint he wanted to borrow some trainers from me in order to get into the pub.

Of course, by morning I owned one less pair of trainers.

You might think the moral of the story is that Australia is a rough place, but I would have to tell the truth - the reason that part of Sydney and that hostel was rough was all the damn Brits!

So funnily enough, although it was an interesting experience, I tend to favour hotels more now and I chose Ridges in Queenstown which was thoroughly pleasant. I'll save the story about getting mixed up with some fun and interesting gang members in Christchurch for another time...
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dbarnum

16 years ago

As internet marketers, we need to first of all set ourselves apart from the other online shoppers here, as each of us could nit-pick online campaigns to death naturally, as anyone would do in their own industry. That’s normal and expected. It’s life.

Then we just need to look at what we want as buyers. That’s it. Does the package offer what you want?

I look at what is being offered with the package:

1) If it’s a refund / price discount – compare to find the best, of course. But look at #2 next.

2) If it’s something to go with the package, what’s the value? Who’s offering it? Will they be around next month? Etc. Will it enhance my experience or just be something else to learn, too, that may not really be needed just now? If not, go to #1.

OK, I admit: yes, I do buy from these types of promos – as well as many others like WSOs - -now don’t get me going there! WSO addict here

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Bev Clement

16 years ago

Anna, I have no view on it, because I have been busy and haven't even taken a look at the offer. How many upsells are there, and what sort of costs are they?

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jjpmarketing

16 years ago

@JASON

I have no stats to prove my theory... but that is what I believe based on my own decision and reaction their 15 upsells. That and the fact that I am more inclined to buy multiple times from someone that is more courteous in their dealings with me. If you constantly spam offers to me... I will likely only use your list to see what other marketers are promoting... and will likely not buy anything else from you again.

However, if you send small tidbits of information on a regular basis that are both useful and somewhat relevant to the original product I purchased from you... and then send me an offer... not only will I be more likely to trust what you are offering... providing the original product was good... but I will likely spend some time considering your offer... vs... immediately clicking the no thanks button.

I didn't see a lot of people in the STSE2 thread stating they bought the upsell... which leads me to believe it would be better to pitch an upsell after you build the relationship with the customer. Brand recognition helps... but the relationship is maybe not more important but it is just as important. I don't feel like my business is valued by Stompernet. I feel more like just a number to them. Especially when they throw 15 upsells at me.

I would have considered their offers seriously if they had just put all those options on a single page. But they didn't so I read the first offer... but then proceeded to clicking "no thanks" for the remainder of the offers.

The people that are likely taking them up on these upsells are probably people that have money to burn. I am more careful with the money I spend.

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MaskedMarketer

16 years ago

I have no stats to prove my theory... but that is what I believe based on my own decision and reaction their 15 upsells. That and the fact that I am more inclined to buy multiple times from someone that is more courteous in their dealings with me. If you constantly spam offers to me... I will likely only use your list to see what other marketers are promoting... and will likely not buy anything else from you again.

Were there really 15 up sells? If not how many? Also basing your decisions about advertising and marketing on emotions and opinions is a common mistake newbies make. Don't use emotions, use facts, data, and proof.

The people that are likely taking them up on these upsells are probably people that have money to burn. I am more careful with the money I spend.

You should really think of it in terms of investing and not spending. Its not like spending when you're going out on a vacation, rather an investment that you should see a ROI

I didn't get the product myself (even though it is free), but the people complaining about these up sells should stop. They just got a product for free. At least let these guys offer you a valuable product or products so they can make good money on their launch.

And if these products offer you a good ROI- you should THANK THEM for offering it to you.

A personal opinion is... I think some people might be jealous which is why they hate upsells. One- they can't afford it. Two- they probably aren't making money online (or much of it). No offense to anyone, but seriously its part of the game, no reason to get emotional.

Some people just aren't satisfied with getting a valuable product (so I hear) thats $500, for free.

Maybe next time instead of saying free, they should openly say, " To get this $500 product, just sit through 5 upsells that can produce 345% on average on ROI and get this product now!" - Maybe that'll work better, lol. It will also weed out all the BS people and the people that complain as well.

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jjpmarketing

16 years ago

Emotion? I doubt it. That was based on sound logic. Based on the other thread... it is proof I am not the only one who felt this way. And I am hardly a newbie.

Besides... you have been on this forum little more than a month. You aren't using your real name. Your opinion holds little weight with me.

Investing? Why do you think I am so careful with my money? Anyone who is in business that carelessly makes impulsive purchasing decisions won't last very long. Besides if I was going to spend that kind of money... I would just wait until a slot opened up on StomperNet.

Thank them? Are you one of their corporate lackies?

I thank them... when I pay for the product... if I so choose to do so.

Anyone who knows about the offer knows I am exaggerating when I say 15 offers... and anyone who doesn't... gets a good feel of what I am talking about.

And I never complained about the upsells. I just clicked no thanks, myself. I was simply discussing the effect of those upsells on potential customers.

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MaskedMarketer

16 years ago

Emotion? I doubt it. That was based on sound logic. Based on the other thread...

Again, you are basing it on emotions (yet others) and no data, facts, proof, or testing. If you didn't test it then you don't know.

it is proof I am not the only one who felt this way. And I am hardly a newbie.

Just because your not the only one doesn't mean anything.
And you're contradicting yourself already. First you said, "Emotion? I doubt it."

Then base your "sound logic" on the way you and others "feel". Which means your "sound logic" is basing it offer of the way you and others were affected emotionally by the upsells.

Besides... you have been on this forum little more than a month.
You aren't using your real name. Your opinion holds little weight with me.

I've been on the forum for a month. I'm not using my real name. And because of that, your saying its okay to base advertising, marketing, and business decisions on feelings and emotions only?

Effective advertising and marketing is done by testing, researching, facts, data, etc. I'm interested to know who told you to base advertising and marketing decisions on yours and others feelings? Thats crazy if you run a marketing company and think like that!!

Investing? Why do you think I am so careful with my money? Anyone who is in business that carelessly makes impulsive purchasing decisions won't last very long. Besides if I was going to spend that kind of money... I would just wait until a slot opened up on StomperNet.

That's exactly right. Anyone who is in business that carelessly makes impulsive purchasing decisions won't last very long.Now, I never said to make careless decisions, but you should be able to make educated decisions. You should be able to see if the product has the potential to give you a ROI (especially with the "GO TO" guys on SEO)- and if not most products from reputable people will give you a money back guarantee

So, what you're saying is, you do not think the stompernet courses and upsells will give you a good ROI? Thats fine, but I hear their products do provide good ROI. Don't know first hand.And if their products don't give you a good ROI, why did you get the free product in the first place?

Thank them? Are you one of their corporate lackies?

Work for Stompernet?LOL.

Anyone who knows about the offer knows I am exaggerating when I say 15 offers... and anyone who doesn't... gets a good feel of what I am talking about.

A true complainer- exaggerating.

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kevinhdavis

16 years ago

I was trying not to get sucked in here when I heard there were three major launches happening this month. The rants and whining are what really turns me off with forums, but it is kind of like a car crash and always draws your attention no matter how hard you try to look away.

The Stompernet launch is only the first of three with Rich Schefren's latest coming out around the 15th or 16th due to hurricanes and Filsaime's Traffic Fusion coming out about the same time currently on the 16th.

With everyone having upsells (because they work), it would be interesting to corrolate whether it would be better to be first, middle, or last in a series of product launches in a short period of time like two weeks.

In several presentations I have seen regarding using upsells in the sales process, GoDaddy and domain registration is continuously used as an example. I don't ever hear anyone complaining about them in the forums for trying to sell hosting, secure certs, traffic, privacy, etc. Have you counted the number of upsells in that process yet. Of course the pricing metrics are different at a very superficial level, but if you look at the price of upsells within GoDaddy in relationship to the cost of the domain, you will see it is very similar to what people are ranting about here. You will also see the continuity there in multiple levels as well.

My opinion is "get over it!". Like Anna said, learn from the process. There is a reason why these guys are running multi-million dollar businesses, they have the balls to ask for the sale over and over again until the metrics no longer make sense.

If the offers are providing value, are directly related to your core business, and you can afford them, you should invest in them. If not, then pass, but at the same time look at the process and see how that same process could impact the profitability of your product line.

I also agree with J-Mo in that your sales will drop dramatically if you waited even a couple days before offering your upsell(s). I hardly ever use a coupon at McDonald's but I'll usually supersize at the drive thru because I am in the buying mood and hungry for what the have to offer.

K

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MaskedMarketer 16 years ago

Kevinhdavis,

Great post. Great analogies.

Agreed.

And forums are a common place for ranting and complaining. Who else are they going to relate to most by complaining about an upsell? Their friends or family? lol
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jjpmarketing

16 years ago

Again... not emotion... still logic. By keeping in mind what others have said about these upsells... i am seeing numbers... not their individual opinions... but the fact that they like me opted out of the upsells. I have yet to see one person state that they did take them up on their upsell offers.

I won't respond to this again. You are clearly the WF newbie looking for attention...

Jason on the other hand, I would at least listen to, because he hasn't attacked my ideas... but simply disagreed. You on the other hand seem to be looking to start an argument... by using it as a cheap tactic for drawing attention. I will not be a part of that.

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MaskedMarketer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I am pointing out the idea that you are using feelings and emotions to make decisions for marketing purposes. Since you have no idea of the results of these particular campaigns, you can't just go off peoples opinions. Is the WF the only way you research and test?

Have you ever thought about all the people that did make that investment? What about them and they're opinions? It can go both ways.

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Chris Lockwood 16 years ago

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

And I never complained about the upsells. I just clicked no thanks, myself. I was simply discussing the effect of those upsells on potential customers.

Didn't complain? You used words like annoying, overkill, and spam to describe them as well as implying that they weren't courteous (not sure what makes an offer courteous or not).

I'm surprised you didn't know that immediate upsells usually convert better. I thought that was marketing 101.
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Midas3 Consulting 16 years ago

Don't understand the fuss, the upsells took a grand total of 7 seconds to bypass, just not an issue at all, you don't want them don't choose them.

They gave away a very high quality product for "free", if the mags shite it's shite and you cancel, seems like a win win to me.
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David Raybould 16 years ago

dwarlords:

If this spamming is the extent of your marketing skill I think you can rest assured your product launch consultancy calendar is going to stay empty for the forseeable future....
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- alg6565 16 years ago
  
  I did buy the $97 upsell product. My main issue was the payment process. After agreeing to trial the magazine (to get STSE2) and additionally the video, I entered my payment details, knowing that the postage was just over $30 to the UK. I then got all the upsells, and statements to the effect that the order is not complete, that you need to customise your order etc.
  
  Now most of us are used to adding items to a shopping cart and then when we have finished we go to the checkout to pay. I guess the Stomper guys have figured out that many people pull out of transactions when they see the combined total at the checkout - so cunningly they have omitted that stage.
  
  I don't know what the rest of you guys saw at the end of the order process but I am guessing that you must have had a final confirmation page to confirm your order? In my case, I opted for the $97 video series, declined the $247 course but was interested in the "basic" version of the same course for $147.
  
  However, I did not want to run up this kind of bill $30 + $147 + $97 on the particular card I had entered the details for earlier, so I backed up on my browser to amend the card details. I lost the page so I was all set to reload the page and begin again, when I checked my emails and saw that the order had already been placed for STSE2 and the $97 product. All this happened without me reaching any final page to confirm my complete order.
  
  Now the guys at Stompernet must know that most people are used to shopping carts and all the stuff on the site about customizing your order and your order is not complete reinforces that. To not follow the traditional payment process that most reasonable ecommerce sites follow - where you add items to a shopping cart, then see a combined total at the checkout, which you agree to pay - seems like a sneaky tactic to ensure that customers are parted from their money immediately, with no chance to review the total purchase price.
  
  Andrew
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Anna Johnson 16 years ago
  
  Andrew, thanks for posting your experience. This is, IMHO, the type of thing worthy of discussion. So what you're saying is that StomperNet processed your order for the DVDs before you had a chance to go back and change your order, in order to buy the basic SN home study course? Hmmm...
  
  Thanks
  
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