Interesting little experiment

mobiusman · 08-31-2009, 04:08 PM

Here’s a little thought experiment for you.

What would happen if, tomorrow morning, you awoke and all your attitudes, both negative and positive, were totally gone?

• How would you act?
• What would your state of mind be?
• How would you describe your situation to others such as your friends or family?

Love to hear your feedback on this.

smile633 · 08-31-2009, 05:12 PM

I'd be confused, act unpredictably, and would have to explain the experiment to my family and friends - but I really would love to keep the positive attitudes!

WendellC · 08-31-2009, 05:49 PM

Without negative or positive attitudes, I think it would make for a very Spock-like existence.

Wendell

premiertimesol · 08-31-2009, 11:07 PM

Honestly,I really don't know because I think it won't happen to me.

franciszek · 09-01-2009, 12:10 AM

Hi....
Well regarding positive and negative attitudes,this is really a confusing question to me and I really think that I will not understand what to do further.I will simply waste my time in thinking what to do.Well I think that from both this attitude only one will exist at a particular instance.Anyways stays connected.

KenThompson · 09-01-2009, 01:33 AM

Hello David,

Seems to me this would get a little tricky, maybe. Here's why...

Perspective, point of view or reference would act as a determinant
as to whether or not one of these attitudes existed. I'll explain this.

Being free from positive or negative attitudes reminds me of a state
of mind achieved by someone like a yogi, or ascetic. Someone who
engages in the pursuit of oneness, loss of ego, etc. Freedom from
those two attitudes would seem to entail being completely non-
judgmental, as well.

So, for example, a person could consider him/herself as genuinely
free from positive or negative attitudes. For purposes of argument,
let's say that person really has achieved such a state.

That point of reference is from that particular person.

Ok, other people viewing that person obviously have a different
point of reference. Right? So they could look at that person, and
perhaps after some period conclude that person, indeed, at least
does not have any discernible negative attitudes.

They could very easily conclude (or judge) that person has a
positive attitude simply due to the lack of any observable negative
attitudes.

Would they be wrong in their thinking? Seems to me they would not
be wrong. Also...

How could the person in question argue that he/she does not have
any positive attitudes if there are no observable negative attitudes?

So, that is why I say the point of reference kinda screws with the
whole thing. lol.

But it is natural to go with one or the other, and not just in reference
to positive and negative attitudes. It's the whole dual nature of things.
The existence of opposites in almost everything.

Which leads to another point.

We need to have something to compare with. If there are no positive
attitudes, how would we know the negative ones? What would we call
it, anyway? We could call it anything.

This is actually an entire body of study in philosophy and metaphysics. I
stopped reading it a long time ago. lol. But it irrevocably warped my mind. lol.

I guess I'll stop now. Interesting post.

Your mind is warped, too.

Oh, sorry. I didn't answer your questions. How would one act? And the state
of mind?

Seems there would be an incredible neutrality of existence and thought. How
would that person view the future, assuming there would be any thoughts
about the future?

I can see some benefits to living sans positive/negative attitudes.

Why bother explaining it to anyone?

Jack Chua · 09-01-2009, 06:50 AM

Then I would think I'll be insane or something. But to be honest, I think that would be very boring because you can't seem to feel or act anything. It will be very hard for me to explain it to my family because at their first sight of me, they will know that it isn't me at all.

Kenster · 09-01-2009, 12:23 PM

I would either feel free or trapped...not sure which

KenThompson · 09-01-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenster

I would either feel free or trapped...not sure which

Why trapped? Just curious.

ladywinfall · 09-01-2009, 02:03 PM

Thanks Ken interesting post very thought-provoking and mind-twisting. I will certainly keep my eyes on this thread.

Lorna

HomeComputerGames · 09-01-2009, 03:26 PM

Oh, you are talking about politicians....(jokes)

Everything would be done by logic it would seem. This could be very good in many aspects but your business and about anything else you would do would lack any personality, I think.

I guess I would be a lot more like my computer.
Nothing new to my family and friends

DerrickLamont · 09-01-2009, 08:32 PM

That would be hard...

If I woke up with neither positive on negative I would probably get a little more work done than usual, because I look at it like this...My mind is at a neutral stage so nothing can bring me down and nothing can up lift me..so I'm going to stay at a steady paste with no distractions.

but at the same time I don't think I would have any emotion towards anything, so on b days its just like its another boring day... I don't think I could live with that.

some things have to happen to uplift me and some somethings have to happen to help me learn...that's my take

Hesaidblissfully · 09-01-2009, 11:43 PM

I imagine it would feel like being a baby all over again, whatever that feels like. Or maybe a Buddhist monk? You would just experience the world as-is, with no preconceived notions about anything.

VoodooMethods · 09-01-2009, 11:52 PM

Oh how good of a feeling that'd be..

I'd probably be happy again.. unpredictable.. and able to sit on the computer 24/7 again!

manor12 · 09-02-2009, 08:30 AM

I think my focus and time management would be back..

dr.nathanial · 09-02-2009, 08:36 AM

Frankly speaking, I am too over burdened these days, no rests...

I will try to sleep more and more... If I don't have any thing positive or negative to do!!!

mobiusman · 09-02-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Seems to me this would get a little tricky, maybe. Here's why...

Perspective, point of view or reference would act as a determinant
as to whether or not one of these attitudes existed. I'll explain this.

Being free from positive or negative attitudes reminds me of a state
of mind achieved by someone like a yogi, or ascetic. Someone who
engages in the pursuit of oneness, loss of ego, etc. Freedom from
those two attitudes would seem to entail being completely non-
judgmental, as well.

So, for example, a person could consider him/herself as genuinely
free from positive or negative attitudes. For purposes of argument,
let's say that person really has achieved such a state.

That point of reference is from that particular person.

Fantastic reply Ken. Very well thought out. You make some very good observations here.

Let's focus on your perspective argument.

Let me say right up front that I think you're right-on about the perspective thing. This is something that Einstein noticed in his space/time experiments. In the 'speeding train" one the result very much depended on where the observer was positioned: on the platform or on the train itself. Each one would experience time differently.

One faster and one slower. (Because as you move through space you move through time)

In this experiment the observer (you) would look at the 'attitudeless' guy (me) and make your determination of my state through the window of your own attitudes. I might try to explain myself to you but I'd surely fail.

Interesting reply by Hesaidblissfully "I imagine it would feel like being a baby all over again..." "You would just experience the world as-is, with no preconceived notions about anything." This illustrates an important point.

The idea about some religious master (Zen Buddhist, yogi, whatever) seems to pop up when the topic of no attitude living is discussed. But this imagery is misleading.

To have the calmness and serenity of Himalayan snow breeze may make a great picture but I think its more accurate to picture yourself at around one or two years of age. You exude love. Just hold a baby for a minute and you'll know what I mean. That's because there are no attitudes formed yet although that happens pretty quickly but at that age they don't supply much motivation as yet.

So let's look at attitudes. (this is the 'Reader's digest' version)

Attitudes are feelings and feelings motivate. Feelings come from a collection of deeply ingrained thought patterns. Each thought is charged with an emotional component that is either negative or positive. (- +)

The greater the number of positive or negative thoughts in a given pattern determines their polarity.

The width and breadth of a thought pattern determines its attitudinal strength. (Suicide bombers have a long indoctrination into a belief pattern that is then backed by hate and frustration directed at the perceived enemy.)

To have attitudes with low-strength does not mean there is no motivation. A baby is very motivated to learn and absorb as much about its world as it can. It is also well recognized that a very young child is far more creative than an older one. (Lac of fear of failure I suppose.)

A young child's intellect (provided he/she is in good health) is very active indeed. Yet attitudes are not yet playing a big part in their motivational makeup.

So, is it necessary to have a set of polarized attitudes in place in order to move about and function in the world? Not at all.

The coin may have two sides but it also has an edge.

...David

Shana_Adam · 09-02-2009, 01:08 PM

Can I choose?

I want my negative ones to be gone!

I would liken this experience to a memory loss. You would have to relearn your experiences which would be great if you knew that you could choose to learn what ever you want to learn.

Say you don't know then you could actually learn a lot more dangerous stuff.

Everything you hear and see most of the time is negative. The news makes you want to hide away from danger that is round the corner.

The media portray more bad than good so how does one program in the good positive experiences.

Ajeet · 09-02-2009, 01:20 PM

If I changed that much, I would also react differently than I presently believe I would

KenThompson · 09-03-2009, 02:14 AM

It's funny, talking about babies and how they are in certain respects. So here we
are, grown, and trying to return to that state - in certain respects.

You used the idea of polarities and the resulting net effect. That's how I was thinking
about it when I mentioned, at the end of my post, that there would seem to be an
incredible neutrality of thought and existence. Neutrality of course referring to a lack
of polarity.

This also reminds me of the concept brought forward by a guy whose name I cannot
remember. I believe he was teaching his method in the 1940's or 50's. His work is in
the public domain and someone made a product out of it.

Anyway, it's basically about having 'zero resistance.' I do not think there's a direct
reference to eliminating positive/negative attitudes. You could call it an approach,
but there's also an attitude behind it of having zero resistance.

I'm sure I am not doing it good justice, but I'm not familiar enough with it.

It reminded me of it because of the thought about neutrality and zero resistance.
There's an idea or quality of smoothness as one progresses, or moves along in life.

Jon Tees · 09-03-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobiusman

Here’s a little thought experiment for you.

What would happen if, tomorrow morning, you awoke and all your attitudes, both negative and positive, were totally gone?

That couldn't ever happen, without a positive or a negative there can't be a neutral. You'd have no motivations, ambitions, feelings of any kind, nor would you have any sort of thought process. Put simply, you'd be brain dead.

To play into your hypothetical; I'd probably stare at the wall until I fell asleep again because I'd have no reason to do anything else.

KenThompson · 09-03-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobiusman

In this experiment the observer (you) would look at the 'attitudeless' guy (me) and make your determination of my state through the window of your own attitudes. I might try to explain myself to you but I'd surely fail.

If the conditions were strict you would fail. That is to say, if you had never
experienced attitudes then yes, you would fail. You would have no concept
of them at all.

But that is not the case with attitudes. You know all about them. Maybe you
are attitudeless now, maybe, but you can still explain your self simply because
you know all about them.

mobiusman · 09-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Let me just say that this discussion is hypothetical. I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all attitudes just like that. I do believe though that, given the right tool, it is possible to weaken their strength within a really short time-frame. Say, ten days or so.

Yes, I said "weaken". I may be alone here but I promote this concept even though the current wisdom is to "strengthen" the attitudinal base. The "experts" in self-help think this will lead to higher motivation. While it may in the short term getting a "high" with attitudes mostly leads to motivational burnout in the long term which kills happiness.

That's why I say we need to be "immune" to the harmful perceptions we all have (yes me too sometimes) associated with failure itself.

That doesn't mean that failure doesn't happen. It just means that it doesn't matter.

By the way, motivation does not cease or even dissipate. If anything the passion that each of us has for that one thing in life that we should be doing (as opposed to the thing we think we should be doing) get's kicked into high gear and can power you through to completion no matter how long it takes.

Failure is a actually a good thing and here's why: Failure in any system leads to immunity. That's why we have things like tubeless tires and pressure release valves on hot water tanks.

Ken, in reference to your later post: I would have a helluva time explaining myself to you with information only. That's because, as I mentioned before, your senses receive the info and process it through the filters of your own attitudinally-driven biases.

But if I come along with a tool (such as H.E.R.O.) where you become as I am (with a newly-warped mind lol) the whole thing changes. That's what happened to those who heard Galileo when he said the earth was not the center of the universe. They (his fellow scientists at least) changed their attitude pretty quickly when they peered through his telescope and saw what he did.

The church leaders however (high on their own attitudes) took another 400 years to finally come around and pardon the poor guy.

How good did you say attitudes are again?

Cheers,
..David

08-31-2009, 04:08 PM	#1
mobiusman Mindset Immunity Mentor Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada. Posts: 101 Thanks: 41 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Social Networking	Interesting little experiment Here’s a little thought experiment for you. What would happen if, tomorrow morning, you awoke and all your attitudes, both negative and positive, were totally gone? • How would you act? • What would your state of mind be? • How would you describe your situation to others such as your friends or family? Love to hear your feedback on this.
	Self-help has been going strong for over 50 years now. Still, only two to five percent realize the success and happiness they seek. Why? Something is seriously broken and I've finally figured out what it is. www.mobiusman.com

08-31-2009, 05:12 PM	#2
smile633 Active Warrior Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment I'd be confused, act unpredictably, and would have to explain the experiment to my family and friends - but I really would love to keep the positive attitudes!
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08-31-2009, 05:49 PM	#3
WendellC HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 167 Thanks: 8 Thanked 44 Times in 30 Posts Social Networking	Re: Interesting little experiment Without negative or positive attitudes, I think it would make for a very Spock-like existence. Wendell
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08-31-2009, 11:07 PM	#4
premiertimesol Active Warrior Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: florida USA Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Interesting little experiment Honestly,I really don't know because I think it won't happen to me.
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09-01-2009, 12:10 AM	#5
franciszek Warrior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment Hi.... Well regarding positive and negative attitudes,this is really a confusing question to me and I really think that I will not understand what to do further.I will simply waste my time in thinking what to do.Well I think that from both this attitude only one will exist at a particular instance.Anyways stays connected.
	jeu de sport

09-01-2009, 01:33 AM	#6
KenThompson (1/0)E(-1/2) et Bushido War Room Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 172 Thanks: 78 Thanked 74 Times in 53 Posts Social Networking	Re: Interesting little experiment Hello David, Seems to me this would get a little tricky, maybe. Here's why... Perspective, point of view or reference would act as a determinant as to whether or not one of these attitudes existed. I'll explain this. Being free from positive or negative attitudes reminds me of a state of mind achieved by someone like a yogi, or ascetic. Someone who engages in the pursuit of oneness, loss of ego, etc. Freedom from those two attitudes would seem to entail being completely non- judgmental, as well. So, for example, a person could consider him/herself as genuinely free from positive or negative attitudes. For purposes of argument, let's say that person really has achieved such a state. That point of reference is from that particular person. Ok, other people viewing that person obviously have a different point of reference. Right? So they could look at that person, and perhaps after some period conclude that person, indeed, at least does not have any discernible negative attitudes. They could very easily conclude (or judge) that person has a positive attitude simply due to the lack of any observable negative attitudes. Would they be wrong in their thinking? Seems to me they would not be wrong. Also... How could the person in question argue that he/she does not have any positive attitudes if there are no observable negative attitudes? So, that is why I say the point of reference kinda screws with the whole thing. lol. But it is natural to go with one or the other, and not just in reference to positive and negative attitudes. It's the whole dual nature of things. The existence of opposites in almost everything. Which leads to another point. We need to have something to compare with. If there are no positive attitudes, how would we know the negative ones? What would we call it, anyway? We could call it anything. This is actually an entire body of study in philosophy and metaphysics. I stopped reading it a long time ago. lol. But it irrevocably warped my mind. lol. I guess I'll stop now. Interesting post. Your mind is warped, too. Oh, sorry. I didn't answer your questions. How would one act? And the state of mind? Seems there would be an incredible neutrality of existence and thought. How would that person view the future, assuming there would be any thoughts about the future? I can see some benefits to living sans positive/negative attitudes. Why bother explaining it to anyone?
	Ken Thompson The Ugly Truth >> http://www.WayneMadsenReport.com

09-01-2009, 06:50 AM	#7
Jack Chua HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 243 Thanks: 19 Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment Then I would think I'll be insane or something. But to be honest, I think that would be very boring because you can't seem to feel or act anything. It will be very hard for me to explain it to my family because at their first sight of me, they will know that it isn't me at all.
	Jack Chua Professional Appointment Setter

09-01-2009, 12:23 PM	#8
Kenster Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United States...NJ Posts: 538 Thanks: 20 Thanked 62 Times in 54 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment I would either feel free or trapped...not sure which

09-01-2009, 02:03 PM	#10
ladywinfall Warrior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: , , Canada. Posts: 26 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment Thanks Ken interesting post very thought-provoking and mind-twisting. I will certainly keep my eyes on this thread. Lorna
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09-01-2009, 03:26 PM	#11
HomeComputerGames HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chesterton, IN Posts: 289 Thanks: 6 Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment Oh, you are talking about politicians....(jokes) Everything would be done by logic it would seem. This could be very good in many aspects but your business and about anything else you would do would lack any personality, I think. I guess I would be a lot more like my computer. Nothing new to my family and friends
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09-01-2009, 08:32 PM	#12
DerrickLamont Active Warrior Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment That would be hard... If I woke up with neither positive on negative I would probably get a little more work done than usual, because I look at it like this...My mind is at a neutral stage so nothing can bring me down and nothing can up lift me..so I'm going to stay at a steady paste with no distractions. but at the same time I don't think I would have any emotion towards anything, so on b days its just like its another boring day... I don't think I could live with that. some things have to happen to uplift me and some somethings have to happen to help me learn...that's my take
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09-01-2009, 11:43 PM	#13
Hesaidblissfully HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: , , USA. Posts: 453 Thanks: 8 Thanked 46 Times in 28 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment I imagine it would feel like being a baby all over again, whatever that feels like. Or maybe a Buddhist monk? You would just experience the world as-is, with no preconceived notions about anything.
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09-01-2009, 11:52 PM	#14
VoodooMethods Active Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 47 Thanks: 13 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Contact Info	Re: Interesting little experiment Oh how good of a feeling that'd be.. I'd probably be happy again.. unpredictable.. and able to sit on the computer 24/7 again!

09-02-2009, 08:30 AM	#15
manor12 What do I know? Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Contact Info	Re: Interesting little experiment I think my focus and time management would be back..

09-02-2009, 08:36 AM	#16
dr.nathanial Warrior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Interesting little experiment Frankly speaking, I am too over burdened these days, no rests... I will try to sleep more and more... If I don't have any thing positive or negative to do!!!

09-02-2009, 01:08 PM	#18
Shana_Adam Chris Spheeris Rocks Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Earth is My Home - I love dearly Posts: 237 Thanks: 3 Thanked 31 Times in 23 Posts Social Networking Contact Info	Re: Interesting little experiment Can I choose? I want my negative ones to be gone! I would liken this experience to a memory loss. You would have to relearn your experiences which would be great if you knew that you could choose to learn what ever you want to learn. Say you don't know then you could actually learn a lot more dangerous stuff. Everything you hear and see most of the time is negative. The news makes you want to hide away from danger that is round the corner. The media portray more bad than good so how does one program in the good positive experiences.
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09-02-2009, 01:20 PM	#19
Ajeet Warrior Member War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mumbai, India Posts: 16 Thanks: 15 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Interesting little experiment If I changed that much, I would also react differently than I presently believe I would

09-03-2009, 02:14 AM	#20
KenThompson (1/0)E(-1/2) et Bushido War Room Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Wilmington Delaware Posts: 172 Thanks: 78 Thanked 74 Times in 53 Posts Social Networking	Re: Interesting little experiment It's funny, talking about babies and how they are in certain respects. So here we are, grown, and trying to return to that state - in certain respects. You used the idea of polarities and the resulting net effect. That's how I was thinking about it when I mentioned, at the end of my post, that there would seem to be an incredible neutrality of thought and existence. Neutrality of course referring to a lack of polarity. This also reminds me of the concept brought forward by a guy whose name I cannot remember. I believe he was teaching his method in the 1940's or 50's. His work is in the public domain and someone made a product out of it. Anyway, it's basically about having 'zero resistance.' I do not think there's a direct reference to eliminating positive/negative attitudes. You could call it an approach, but there's also an attitude behind it of having zero resistance. I'm sure I am not doing it good justice, but I'm not familiar enough with it. It reminded me of it because of the thought about neutrality and zero resistance. There's an idea or quality of smoothness as one progresses, or moves along in life.
	Ken Thompson The Ugly Truth >> http://www.WayneMadsenReport.com

09-03-2009, 02:35 PM	#23
mobiusman Mindset Immunity Mentor Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: British Columbia, Canada. Posts: 101 Thanks: 41 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Social Networking	Re: Interesting little experiment Let me just say that this discussion is hypothetical. I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate all attitudes just like that. I do believe though that, given the right tool, it is possible to weaken their strength within a really short time-frame. Say, ten days or so. Yes, I said "weaken". I may be alone here but I promote this concept even though the current wisdom is to "strengthen" the attitudinal base. The "experts" in self-help think this will lead to higher motivation. While it may in the short term getting a "high" with attitudes mostly leads to motivational burnout in the long term which kills happiness. That's why I say we need to be "immune" to the harmful perceptions we all have (yes me too sometimes) associated with failure itself. That doesn't mean that failure doesn't happen. It just means that it doesn't matter. By the way, motivation does not cease or even dissipate. If anything the passion that each of us has for that one thing in life that we should be doing (as opposed to the thing we think we should be doing) get's kicked into high gear and can power you through to completion no matter how long it takes. Failure is a actually a good thing and here's why: Failure in any system leads to immunity. That's why we have things like tubeless tires and pressure release valves on hot water tanks. Ken, in reference to your later post: I would have a helluva time explaining myself to you with information only. That's because, as I mentioned before, your senses receive the info and process it through the filters of your own attitudinally-driven biases. But if I come along with a tool (such as H.E.R.O.) where you become as I am (with a newly-warped mind lol) the whole thing changes. That's what happened to those who heard Galileo when he said the earth was not the center of the universe. They (his fellow scientists at least) changed their attitude pretty quickly when they peered through his telescope and saw what he did. The church leaders however (high on their own attitudes) took another 400 years to finally come around and pardon the poor guy. How good did you say attitudes are again? Cheers, ..David
	Self-help has been going strong for over 50 years now. Still, only two to five percent realize the success and happiness they seek. Why? Something is seriously broken and I've finally figured out what it is. www.mobiusman.com