Mark McClure

Some sad news from a sweat lodge event apparently connected with James Ray's business (one of the stars of "The Secret", a movie dealing with what is referred to as the law of attraction)...

The Associated Press: 2 die, 19 overcome at Arizona retreat sweat lodge

James Arthur Ray | Blog: For All Those Affected by the Tragedy in Sedona

Another interesting thread on this developing story:
http://beyondgrowth.net/guru-critici...-lodge-fiasco/

wwgroup

I have read the three links and his blog posts. It is sad. The hosts need to create a safer experience for in these types of events.

samthor

from what i read about this event .... they did everything wrong.
its unfortunate.... and sadly not the first time this has happened.
and unless ppl are educated about signing up for these "indian -like but mixed with new age and anything goes" ceremonies its possible that more will be ripped off, injured or dead.

from: Don't Pay To Pray: In Memoriam

In Memoriam

Rowen Cooke 37, Melbourne Australiadied in a sweat lodge November 4, 2004

Kylie Watts, 30 Byron Bay in New South Walesdied in a sweat lodge in 2003

Kirsten"Kris" Babcock 34 Redding, California died in a sweat lodge on June 21, 2002
David Thomas Hawker, 36, of Union City, California died in a sweat lodge on June 21, 2002
Gordon Reynolds, 43 of Twickenham, West London died in a sweat lodge on November 21, 1996
Kelly Rice, 35 of Austin, Texas, housekeeper and masseuse, died of accidental heatstroke inside a sweat lodge in June 1993
Ronald Delgado of Santa Barbara California was killed in Archie Fire Lame Deer's 'Vision Quest' on July 12, 1980

Please remember these victims in your prayers and don't let these deaths be forgotten. They were all human beings and none of them deserved to die like this.

I think that their deaths should be seen as a warning. For thousands and thousands of years, no one died in a sweat lodge. When people decided to sell them, seven people, that we know of, died on 28 years. The act of subjecting spirituality to Capitalism is what makes them poisonous to the spirit. This is what happens when indigenous people lose sovereignty over our own spiritual practices. This is inevitably what happens when one engages in the absurd act of subjecting spirituality to free market forces. Because in Capitalism, the customer is always right. To make the maximum profit, service must be adapted to the greatest number of customers – the lowest common denominators.

The lesson that the frauds refuse to learn is protocol. The counterculture shuns rationality, accountability, sacrifice, discipline and protocol and embraces narcissism and self indulgence. These were never indigenous values. When people reject our protocol out of ignorance and arrogance and try to take the empty form of our spiritual practices, they will harm themselves. They will remain empty. They will lose their integrity, they will lose their money and some of them will lose their lives. The frauds will always try to trick their targets into believing they are following protocol. And most people are too lazy and ignorant to know who to check out their claims.

Many of these people died in sweats held on very hot days around the summer solstice. With the popularity of the twinkie sweat lodge ever increasing there’s an increased probability that someone will die this weekend. Some New Age businesses think it’s enough to force participants to sign waivers. This only protects the business and does not hold the New Age Capitalist accountable for any acts of negligent homicide. To this date, none of the frauds running these deadly sweats have been prosecuted for their crimes. Spirit of the Earth Medicine Society is still running sweats in Australia. When you think about it, it really reveals the true character of people perpetuating this fraud when you see that their primary response to this horrible event was to protect themselves legally in the event of future deaths. This refusal to be held accountable for one’s actions is definitely NOT indigenous.
Don’t Pay to Pray has been keeping statistics on the number and cost of non-NDN sweat lodges since 2001. We found that the average cost of sweats reported to us from people across the United States and Canada has increased from $46.67 in 2001 to $95.00 in 2007 and it skyrocketed to $965.26 in 2008. The number reported to us has risen nearly 900%. It appears that the sweat-lodge cottage industry is not a mainstream high-end service. The popularity of the inauthentic sweat only increases the probability that someone will die this weekend.
The frauds who conduct these sweats are getting bolder in creating specious rhetoric to finagle payment for their services. Unfortunately, a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth in the sustainable community and more and more people are simply taking the frauds at their word. Most are claiming that payment is merely an “exchange of energy” and that it is no longer appropriate just to give the twinkie shame-man blankets, food or gas etc. We’re hearing over and over again that it’s appropriate to give large sums of “energy” (meaning money). As activists, we can’t let our voices be drowned out by those who would commercialize our spirituality.

What does it mean for the future of indigenous spiritual practices when more non-NDN people have participated in sweat lodges than have NDN people?

It was recently pointed out to me that it’s probably now true that more non-NDN people have participated in sweat lodges than have NDN people. Through their numbers and their resources, non NDNs have barged into our communities and have nearly supplanted us from our own cultures. This weekend millions of people all over the world will attend twisted versions of sweat lodge ceremonies believing they are doing something good that is sanctioned by indigenous spiritual leaders. They simply are not.

While the price of the average twinkie sweat lodge is rapidly growing beyond the means of the poorest people, these businesses have priced out everybody but the richest, whitest people from the trendiest sweats. A New Age sweat lodge is now one of the whitest events one can attend. I don’t really think this was completely unintentional. Whether they intend it or not, those who claim to respect our religion are supplanting authentic native people from our own religious practices.

I think that what is necessary to stop this perversion of indigenous spiritual practices is for all the well meaning non-NDNS to start educating themselves and to start looking at themselves in a brutally honest fashion. Indigenous people have no real power to fight the superior resources of those who profit from the exploitation of native spiritual practices, so I think what we need to do is to culture jam -- that is to de-cool the sweat lodge as a countercultural practice. When people who truly support indigenous people start confronting those who brag about attending a sweat lodge and let them know that this contributes to the destruction of native spiritualities and is definitely NOT COOL, then indigenous people will start to reclaim control over OUR birthright. If the well-meaning sustainable/green community can understand why it is essential to simply leave some environments alone, then they can certainly understand why it is essential that they leave our spiritual environment alone. If they truly respect for our spirituality it and wish it to continue, they’ll leave it to us. Native people, not New Age Capitalists, must have full sovereignty over OUR spiritual practices.

The simple truth is this: subjecting Sweat lodges to the Capitalist marketplace is NOT a SUSTAINABLE practice. The counterculture is at a crossroads. Will they choose to leave our spirituality alone so that it can be preserved or will they say and do nothing while it is exploited to extinction? Can the left take an honest look at themselves and make the necessary changes? Or will their hypocrisy continue?

graphicanatomy.com

samthor

Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat

http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Philadelphia-Speculative-Fiction-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Breaking-news-Inside-accounts-of-James-Ray-sweat-lodge-tragedy-and-retreat

People are flailing in seizures; others are vomiting violently, or foaming at the mouth. Bodies are lined up unconscious, some are blue from lack of oxygen, but for some it is too late, they are already dead. Survivors that are barely able to stand struggle to help the others, they have had almost no food or water for nearly three days, even longer without sleep. It looks like a war zone, but for the incongruent figure of James Arthur Ray (a contributing author to The Secret) who exits the sweat lodge and stands tall with a big smile, the only one able to stand on his own volition. He is not concerned with the medical emergency going on full swing around him. He is not worried about the health and well-being of his followers who have paid $10,000.00 (tack on an additional 5,000.00 or so if you include flights, room and board, and camping supplies) to attend his retreat. In fact, he and his team urge people to stop taking care of others and focus on their own journey, assuring them they are fine and only “purging”. Someone finally realizes James Ray is not in control of the situation and calls 911.


It sounds like this is right out of a science fiction novel, doesn’t it? But sadly, this is one of those rare times I pull my head out of a fantasy book and report on reality. How did a retreat aimed at spiritual growth and financial wealth go so horribly, tragically wrong? Those who were not present are pointing fingers at the physical experience of a sweat lodge – was it constructed properly by James Ray and his staff? Did they have the proper building permits? Did they use too many hot rocks or have too many participants? Does the government need to issue standardized guidelines for sweat lodge participants? After interviewing one of James Ray’s victims who was present at the retreat, I would argue no - although it is clear the technical specifications of the lodge were innapropriate. This is not an accident of negligence because a leader was untrained in the Native American sweat lodge practices. This tragedy is the consequence of a charismatic, megalomaniacal smooth-talker with undue influence and his own agenda – one that did not, at any point during the retreat, account for the safety of the participants, physically, mentally, or emotionally. This offends me as a backpacker and wilderness enthusiast, as a dabbler in psychological theory, and as someone who has an interest in bettering myself morally – but most importantly, it offends me as a human being who has compassion and empathy for my fellow humans.

Today I’m going to look deep into the soulless belly of the James Ray Spiritual Warrior retreat with thoughts and descriptions based on what I have learned from firsthand witnesses and participants. These brave victims are speaking in the midst of recovery (on the condition of anonymity) because of the urgency of the situation, as well as a moral obligation to the victims who passed away, Kirby Brown (3 and James Shore (40) and their families, and to those who can still be saved from this man. James Ray and the Angel Valley retreat have lied repeatedly, stating that they have never had any problems at previous retreats and that nothing like this has ever happened before - yet it is well documented that police are investigating multiple James Ray retreat locations and that a similar incident happened at the very same Angel Valley retreat center in AZ, at a James Ray retreat no less, in 2005. Why the lies? Well, there is no way these guys could tell you the truth without immediate prosecution, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, and proceed immediately to jail. Speaking of money, did you know neither James Ray nor Angel Valley has refunded any of the money they have collected from this retreat? I mean, obviously there will be lawsuits but it would be in good taste to refund the victims. It would be in better taste to also pick up the hospital charges, but James Ray is clearly not about accountability or decency to others. But enough about that, you want to know what the heck happened at this retreat and I am here to relay that to you.

Before the retreat even started, participants were advised to read The Holotropic Mind by Stanislav Grof and Hal Zina Bennett, as well as listen to a CD titled The Holosync Solution Awakening Prologue (the CD set is 175.00 dollars and not included in with the cost of the retreat, by the way). I have not read The Holotropic Mind personally, however Stanislav Grof is notable in the field of psychiatry for his studies on altered states of consciousness. After (briefly) searching Wikipedia and James Ray’s personal website, I am unable to find any credentials that would qualify him to be using psychological techniques. His website only states he “has studied and been exposed to a wide diversity of teachings and teachers – from his collegiate learning and the schools of the corporate world, to the ancient cultures of Peru, Egypt and the Amazon.” Pretty vague, huh? I mean, it’s never killed James Ray to name-drop before *coughOprahcough*. Which schools? What teachers?

The first day or so of the retreat was mostly unremarkable as far as self-help retreats go – a lot of time spent in the “classroom” doing meditation and listening to other CD’s as well as lectures. I say “mostly” because James Ray urged participants to forego sleep, insisting that working on their assignments all night would be more beneficial. Sleep deprivation is well-known to cause impairment of ability and of deductive reasoning, often times displaying comparable results to consumption of alcohol. Why would a self-help retreat supposedly focused on healing want to keep participants from thinking clearly? My guess is because the aim of the retreat was not self-improvement but coercive persuasion. If you are not familiar with the term it can be summed up as techniques used to produce ideological and behavioral changes in a fully conscious, mentally intact individual. Is this an acceptable practice? I would say it depends, like so many other things, on the execution. It certainly can be used to beneficial effect; however it can also employ means such as psychological pressure, hypnotic suggestion, undue influence, threats, anxiety, intimidation and/or stress in an unethical manner.

Some people might find it more alarming that immediately upon starting the retreat participants shaved their heads – before the sleep deprivation. Yes, even the women. This actually doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, I think every woman should shave her head at least once in her life. Besides, all the kids are doing it. It’s fashionable. It’s also emotionally freeing. However, I know a lot of family members of the participants are upset about it – excuses such as “It looks dykey!” or “You’re in a cult!” get tossed around, to which I roll my eyes. “Wait!” you’re probably accusing me right now, “I read your transcript of the conference call James Ray made to these victims, and you outright accuse him of being a cult leader!” Yes, you are absolutely right; I do state repeatedly that James Ray is a cult leader.

Many commenters chided me for using the term inappropriately, but I stand by my terminology. They were right to chide me though, because I didn’t make clear that not all of James Ray’s followers are cult members. Not even all of his victims could be considered cult members. This is a very important distinction that I want to take a moment to clear up. James Ray and his staff display cult-like qualities that are dangerous to the followers, from people who idly glanced at The Secret all the way through to the victims of his sweat lodge tragedy, but his followers are not a cult. One more time, for emphasis - James Ray’s followers are not a cult. Reading his works, practicing some of his techniques at home by yourself, these things do not make a cult member. Not even attending the seminars guarantees membership into the ranks of cult. If James Ray spouted the crazy right up front no one would listen. Think of the tale of Hansel and Gretel – the Witch lured them in with a house made of delicious candy and then locked them in an oven. James Ray is smarter than the Witch though, because he stuffed Hansel and Gretel and their pockets full of candy and sent them back to the village to lure the others in. More people for the oven-oops-I-mean-sweat-lodge that way, you see. There is nothing wrong with sweat lodges, ovens, candy, or some of these teachings; it is all in how you use it. Now that we’ve cleared that up, let’s get back to what happened at the deadly retreat.

Day Two the sleep deprivation has begun - but that by itself is not enough of a warning to foresee this tragedy. The real warning signs begin with the James Ray Games. One of the brave and recovering victims described a game they all had to play in which James Ray played God. Yep, you read that right; James Ray cast himself in the role of God and would then command participants to die. He would point at someone and they would have to fall down and play dead. They would be covered with a blanket and if they moved another person would "die".

Kirby Brown exemplified the dangerous psychological twisting behind these games. After the game she was seen standing in line for the outhouse, clutching herself and crying. After another participant ushered her to the front of the line they asked her “Why didn’t you just get up and go?” She looked up sincerely and said she didn’t want to ruin the game for others. It breaks my heart to know that James Ray took the life of such a compassionate woman away, a woman willing to suffer so others could benefit, but it also really pisses me off that he warped such a sweet motivation and used it masochistically. My inner neo-hippie rises up and shouts “Dude! No one should have to hold it so long it hurts!” That’s just cruel.

“What was the motivation behind such games?” you are probably demanding of your computer screen right now. James Ray reasoned something along the lines of “it demonstrated the transcendental nature of death” and explained how it would allow participants to leave behind their fears of death. He spoke of honor, integrity, and strength. He spoke of being reborn (These are not direct quotes, they are adlibbed from the memories of participants).

At the end of the second day the James Ray Vision Quest began. I personally have done several vision quests in the desert so I do have an inkling of an idea of what I’m talking about here. I find the biggest red flags of dangerous indoctrination to be restriction of water, food, or bathroom breaks – So when I heard James Ray dropped everyone off in the desert with no food, no water, and nothing but a sleeping bag, the clothes on their back, and a notebook I start to sputter obscenities. No water, in the desert, for 36+ hours is dangerous. I’ve always been told to drink at least a gallon of water a day when hiking in the desert. Furthermore, even if the participants had been fully rested and cognitively ready to question the water restriction, it is still completely traditional (and uneccesary) to go without food on these solo journeys.

James Ray mixes a subtle combination of increasingly risky behavior with perfectly legitimate practices that leave these poor victims slightly confused and he keeps them physically in a hurry -preventing them from sitting down and taking the time to think these things through. We’ve all been in that state of mind. Who hasn’t pulled an all-nighter studying just to be on autopilot the next day in class? Yeah, we can still function but it takes its toll. Now imagine before this all-nighter you’ve spent your classes working on trust exercises, being coddled by your professor and told how it’s important to relearn trusting others. You will be taken care. You are provided for. Stop thinking about those things and focus on your inner journey. Just learn stuff. Of course, you’ve paid $15,000 dollars or so to be there, so you expect to be able to really relax and let go. This is why James Ray is such a dangerous man, anyone could fall into that trap. By the time the participants started to think “Hey, I should have really insisted on that canteen of sweet, delicious, life-giving water…” it’s too late. They were stranded alone, in the dark, in an unknown location in the Arizona desert.

If you haven’t done one of these vision quests it might be hard to understand how the participants didn’t want to leave after that, but I assure you, it’s a powerful experience even when you’re fully rested and stuff yourself full of food and water. I imagine that sense of wonder and transformation is magnified when one is starving and dehydrated. Sleep was still hard to come by because most participants were not prepared for the devastating cold that comes over the desert at night. Participants were coerced into buying thickly woven Peruvian ponchos for additional charges of $250.00. While that price may seem exorbitant, one victim I interviewed was happy to have paid it, repeatedly stating that it was literally life-saving. The tightly woven material also kept out the intermittent rain, helping to keep participants dry. Still, sleep was hard to come by in those temperatures, being fitful at best and it hardly alleviated the impaired thinking that has become prevalent. It’s easy to see how thinking could become distorted at this point – feelings of being ripped off by a leader and staff that didn’t give proper information about necessary equipment are battling with rationalizations of how at least they pushed the extra gear on everyone instead of letting them freeze to death.

When James Ray’s team finally returned to pick them up from their isolation (surprisingly enough, James Ray was not fasting on a vision quest during this period, nor were his staff – makes you wonder what they were doing, huh?) the participants were all so happy to be warm, with food and water, and thrilled to be surrounded by all their new friends who were all equally excited about their amazing transformative experiences, that the measly hour or so they had to eat and rehydrate themselves flew by. Food was hardly touched, most people opting to drink water first which quickly filled their newly shrunken stomachs. Before anyone had a chance to really recover the participants were whisked off to a group meditation (led by James Ray) and then to the final piece of the James Ray Spiritual Warrior Retreat. The sweat lodge.

We’ve painted a picture of the participants mental state leading up to the sweat lodge, and we know what happened when James Ray turned the relaxing Native American equivalent of a sauna into an endurance competition. He not only encouraged participants to stay and push past physical discomfort, he also actively dissuaded people that wanted to leave. The phrase “push through your threshold” was repeated often by James Ray. If participants didn’t make it to the door fast enough they had to wait for the next round. James Ray would slam the tarp shut shouting “Too late! Door’s shut!” and as he was sitting directly next to the door he was escalating it into a physical confrontation (not to mention he was the only one getting reprieve from the heat. Others could not feel a thing when the door was opened) – playing off something we are trained from birth to avoid. Throughout all this, James Ray is speaking words of encouragement. He speaks of how throwing up is good and actually purging (it isn’t. it’s actually a sign of dehydration and many other bad things), and explains that passing out is common (it isn’t). He encourages people who find it too hot to bury their faces in the dirt, because it was cooler. This is like telling people to stay in a sauna and if it’s too hot – hey, just stick your face by the bottom of the door!

These honorable participants tried time and time again to re-organize and keep everyone safe, but at every stage they were thwarted by James Ray and his staff. Participants who expressed concern over others were told time and time again to focus on their own journey, and not to interfere with another’s. Once outside the enclosure some people were physically restrained from helping the rescue effort by staff members. One unconscious victim was dropped on their head while staff carried them out of the sweat lodge.

After paramedics responded, James Ray was escorted away by police; however he chose his right to silence. Police are reported to have released James Ray that evening, at which point he immediately left the state (this is based on other reports in the media).

This type of devastation isn’t caused by a faulty sweat lodge, oh no, people will leave a faulty sweat lodge when left to their own devices. This is the fault of a leader who seems to think Jonestown was a super idea, and Hitler had some great technique. There are probably some who question my interpretations of the psychology here, and you should because I am not certified for this stuff in any way, so please contribute your own thoughts and research. My opinion is based on research of the following topics: Coercive persuasion, POW mind control studies, wilderness programs to rehabilitate delinquent youth as well as adult programs such as Landmark Education, the Milgram Experiment, Stockholm syndrome, Jonestown tragedy, cult psychology, and many other random topics that I've studied for my current work-in-progress.

What will other self-help gurus say about this kind of behavior? Will Oprah continue to endorse James Ray? When dealing with cult leaders and other dangerously charismatic people we must always remember to focus not on the beauty of one's words, but on the morality of one's actions.

graphicanatomy.com

ThomasW

It is time to wake up and grow up. There is no need to follow a smooth talking spiritual salesman who knows all the right terms and all the right new age buttons to hit. The Secret was never anything more than a slick marketing lesson followed up by some of the participants making a 2nd fortune off of well heeled followers who give up their power and personal responsibility to hucksters like this one.

If the event had been 9.00 to participate in instead of 9000.00 my guess is that everyone would have left before death entered the tent. This kind of manipulation has been going on forever and there will be a new one to come you can count on it.

As lon as there are people ready to believe someone who convincingly says they have the answer and it is a secret only they can convey, this garbage will continue. Politicians, TV evangelists, new age gurus, the list goes on and on - sadly.

http://best.mover.ever.com

OhTanner

i always HATED that movie "the secret", i thought it was 100% garbage..

Loren Woirhaye

I've been following this story. A 3rd woman has died of
complications.

I've done quite a lot of "journey work" and I'm appalled
by this commercialization of sacred traditions.

I've spent time in the dessert. In only a few hours without
water you start to dehydrate, badly. If the dry wind kicks
up it steals the water right off your skin. It can kill you fast,
and before it does it wreaks havoc on your kidneys.

Going voluntarily without water in the desert is phenomenally
stupid.

samthor

its not just the controversy over The Secret.... its also important to be very suspicious of anyone offering a "sweatlodge experience" for any amount of money. These new- age- guru- shaman- whatever should not be offering sacred tribal ceremonies to non- tribal members and charging money for it.

graphicanatomy.com

mark z

Even this quote is scary enough.

It`s really sad that those people lost their lives in trying to improve them by believing (and paying) such "experts".
Sad. Really sad.

bozz723

Is this guy actually on the warrior forum?

Coaching - $10k Per Month - BH CPA - Combined With WH CPA = Unstoppable. Serious Inquiries Only - FIVE New Spots After Excessive Requests So Hurry.

RDJLabs

Oh my.. I feel sorry for the deceased guys and on what they're left at.

Peter Nguyen

I also thought this at first, but I read some of the articles and it seems that the "cleansing ceremony" was named the "Spiritual Warrior".

This is very sad news.

samthor

James Ray has been arrested.
Sweat Lodge Leader Is Indicted in Deaths - NYTimes.com

the deaths are very unfortunate.
if anything, let this serve as a chance to learn for others who want to "experiment" with Native American sweat lodge ceremonies, or vision quests, or sun dances or whatever.

James Ray and his staff were not properly trained, and that was dangerous. The lodge was built improperly and it was dangerous.
If someone is NOT an actual card carrying tribal member then likely they are not trained properly. (yes, they have cards)
the only way to be trained is face to face with a tribal elder. Not through books, or websites, or youtube videos. And these days tribal elders are rather picky about who they pass the knowledge onto. Because they really don't appreciate an outsider taking their most sacred beliefs and ceremonies, mixing them with whatever is fashionable at the moment and charging thousands of dollars to exploit their culture.
so please keep that in mind next time someone offers a Native American style "whatever".
you can find more info at: NAFPS Forum - Index

graphicanatomy.com

Ehanson

Read about the story when it first developed but I didn't know someone from The Secret was connected to it.

I didn't know that was James' business either- and now he's in jail. It's scary and shocking reading the first hand account of what happened. The whole thing is very sad indeed. There needs to be some kind of regulation in the self help industry.

Discover How I Made $400 in One Day Offline

The domain offlineblueprintreport.com is for sale. Please contact me if you're interested.

WildwindE

I've participated in a sweat lodge ceremony and done correctly (and let me say that plastic tarps over a lodge like those in Sedona is NOT CORRECT, it is a very rewarding experience.

Sacred ceremonies are sacred for a reason, when they're wrapped in plastic tarps, what does that tell you?

I feel very sad for James Arthur Ray, the families of the victims and all those sucked into the GURU thing, including James himself.

While I love to give advice when asked, the first thing I ever tell anyone is this:

YOUR OWN OPINION IS THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS.

Inside of each and every one of us is the same SOURCE in others. But if they try and tell you that the SOURCE within them KNOWS the ANSWERS for YOU -- RUN. Quickly.

Hell, no one can KNOW your answers. Especially if they don't really know the questions.

The Universe may USE others to speak to you, to mentor you to teach you, but they are never ever ever above you or better than you, EVER.

YOU ARE THE GURU YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR.

Learn to go within -- and you will never go without (Neale Donald Walsh said that).

Laurie Brenner
Award Winning Author
Changing Planes, a metaphysical fiction
Little Book of Becoming-The Primer to Living Inside Out
Law-of-Attraction-Masters - Grow the desires of your heart.

Odahh

When i want to detox i spend 30 bucks on the footpad the clean you out while you sleep . When i am working again there are a coyuple detox vitamin program i'd like to check out. I really should ad in fasting and some time in a sauna. Along with a dozen other healthy thing i can do.

I do think i would draw the line wel short of paying 5000 dollars for someone to motivate me to starve for several days then cook me in a sweatlog while i was sick and half dead.

Mr Ray should have stopped at fleesing his sheep. Unfortunately he moved on to slaughtering them. Oh does this mean he will loose everything for the third time.

Chris Faraday

I feel the spiritual & self-help leaders have gone overly etheric.
This event will tarnish spiritual practices and self-help gurus.
We will be hearing about this for a long time.

Clearly over run by ego and perhaps cultish megalomania.
This was pure negligence, totally avoidable & tragic.

What we need now is a form of practical spirituality, mixed with
effective & ethical marketing models and personal mentoring formats.

Stated above - we are our own salvation.
Self-help gurus are just like any other gurus.
There's good, bad, ugly and beautiful.

James Ray was a little too mlm for me - working his harmonic wealth hook - like a good guru should.

When you see pure genuine spirit, kindness, passion & heart you know it.

On the other side of the coin there's Micheal Beckwith - check him on you tube.
Truly transformational and spiritually awakening - well worth a look.

As for the rest of the secret / LOA's - not so sure.
Power of now sure - if it inspires you and it's genuine...
Angel therapy hmmmmm - not so sure
Louise Hay??
Bob Procter???
Joe Vitale - gotta respect the master as he works through his own evolution.
Perhaps I've not seen his name here as much - but a copy writing influence for sure.

There will ultimately be a benefit from this unfortunate event.

Super-Conscious Affiliate

samthor

Sweating does have its benefits....
which is why almost every ancient culture has its own version.

Celtic, Mediteranian, Baltic cultures all had their own version of a steam, sweat, bath, etc.
If anyone is interested, consider searching your own culture & history first.
But please check references, do research and as said before makeup your own mind.

graphicanatomy.com

bigdreamseeker

bozz723, would you email me at bigdreamseeker AT gmail.com ?
I am new on the forum and cannot PM.