Social Guy

Hi everybody,

Next week I'm having some meetings with local businesses (restaurant and an advertisement agency). I got these meetings with my "mobile website" pitch but I'm also offering complete (responsive) websites...

What do you people think is the best thing I can offer these company's? When will they need a responsive or mobile website..? Is this different per niche?

Hope to get some good and usable advice from you people

Danielm

I'd consider what they have now. If they have a nice website already but just either doesn't work on a mobile phone (flash) or the sizing is whacky then they might be less likely to want to redo the entire site. If their main site could use an overhaul it might be an easier sell to push the responsive one.

Social Guy

Thats what I do indeed, I check the client needs and offer the best solution. But maybe people on this forum have been in this market longer and know which niche prefers what

App29

Why aren't you doing an app? Why is everyone on the warrior forum all about WAP's? When there are so many more benefits to apps and the cost is about the same, I'm so confused!!!

Jay Moreno

These are the reasons i personally think APPS are NOT more beneficial than a mobile web app or site - please correct me if i am wrong...

1) Apps are device specific - meaning you need seperate APPS for iphone, android, windows phone, blackberry - properly designed mobile websites work on all phones period.

2) You have to download an app if it is not installed already
3) The development and hosting of an App is much greater than the development and hosting of a mobile website.
4) An App is more difficult to update than an mobile website
5) You App in most instances has to be approved before it can be used a mobile website does not...

These are just a few things that spring to mind...

I am not saying don't ever develop/use an APP as they do obviously have a place in the mobile eco system especially when integrating with the device itself - however i think a high percentage of native apps could really be just a mobile web app/site... and would recommend anyone considering building an APP first really investigate if a mobile web app would work just as well.

PS i just saw your other post on doing an app webinar - i would genuinely be interested in seeing it too and learning more about your perspective on them too

tmoby

I personally like responsive design.. well.. just cause. But I know mobile websites are made to load faster. I believe responsive design is still loading the same content on a mobile device as it would on a desktop - thus the images and such may still be larger files.

Jay Moreno

Exactly! Whilst a responsive design may look good - speed/performance and the overall mobile user experience can still be questionable...

Baring in mind think about how many of the top websites in the world use responsive design... very few! Take a look at the top 100 sites in Alexa and you will see almost all opt for a true mobile optimized user experience over a responsive design... i don't believe that to be just a co-incidence!

Cheers,

Jay

RoiJB

I'll add to Jays list by pointing out that the prospective customer would first have to go to the App store and download and install it ... so how do they find out about the App for Plumber Joe in their town?

Of course my basement is flooded so I have lot's of time to look for a plumber app in my area at the App store of choice.

App29

1) Apps are device specific - meaning you need seperate APPS for iphone, android, windows phone, blackberry - properly designed mobile websites work on all phones period. ---Yes this is true, but let's not forget how many iPhone and Android users there are. Android sells over 700,000 devices EVERYDAY

2) You have to download an app if it is not installed already ---Ok but lets not use this as an excuse, Android users and iPhone users download apps...period. Its not like they're having to write a 50 page essay It's really not that difficult, and the facts show us people LOVE to download apps.
3) The development and hosting of an App is much greater than the development and hosting of a mobile website. There is NO HOSTING for apps. Usually companies like my company App29 charge a monthly fee for access to a dashboard where they can make changes and updates to their app.
4) An App is more difficult to update than an mobile website --- Actually its easier to update an app than a mobile website
5) You App in most instances has to be approved before it can be used a mobile website does not... Yes, but its not that big of a deal with Apple. Android is actually instant.

You see mobile websites are mainly pushed because people don't understand or are intimidated by "Apps", when in all actuality App29 has made it easier than building a mobile website Hope this helps...Oh and lets not forget you get better SEO with apps due to the fact that they are being SEO'd by Google and Apple Oh and the fact that you can send push notifications for free (like sms).

App29

Easy --- The user would visit their website through Google and as soon as they landed on the website a popup would say, "Get 10% off by downloading our app" They click download and it takes them right to the app download...ok so they have to wait 20 sec for the app to download, but they will probably have to wait that long for a site to load anyway. But now the customer has instant access to the plumber on their phone whenever they need them. The customer will be encouraged to keep the app through special offers. Or look at how to videos, lets face it video is king of content, people just like it

App29

The above app would be great for tradeshows, and other promo events or even a AdWords campaign.

App29

I would also encourage you to take a look at the videos I posted in forum: How to build a local deals/coupon app.

Jay Moreno

I hear what you are saying to a degree but all of those examples look like they could be done using a mobile website... including integrating SMS

You can still use video too on a mobile website... our Wordpress Mobile Theme Framework will display the correct video format for the type of phone thats looking at it so goes beyond limiting yourself to Android/Iphones...



And for updating... i dont think you can get much easier than updating a mobile site built on wordpress for example? do you not have to upload the app again and possibly get approval?

The hosting fee was what i had in mind... ie the monthly fee to access the dashboard etc...

Am still interested in seeing what you have though - PM an invite for the webinar when you ready to do it!

Cheers,

Jay

dennism70

App29 likes to sell app's instead of mobile site thats for sure. BUT...

I can build ten different landingpages for my client INCLUDING a button that says call me now for 10% discount or get coupon or whatever... So for marketing purposes...

And I should act first before I can see the great offer with an app. And offcourse more than 1 app needed to create the same. 700.000 android users a day. Still they have to find my app first between the millions of apps. Searches with google and others are for me easy to find out in adwords and i can target my mobile content specificly. How about SEO for apps?

And a QR code in combination with bookmarking and sms does the same. But if you really want that. As soon as an app is giving me al kind of messages i didnt ask for, i'll get rid of it

And I can't put a "download" on paper with an app. But with a QRcode and landingspage I can put an extra virtual space with an offline add and reach those Android, Apple and others in one time...and land them on my mobile pages 1 or 5 different ones for measure purpose.

Dont get me wrong, apps have a place in the mobile world, but I think you can do a lot more and more flexibel with mobile web pages/sites.

BTW where do Android and Apple users search if the want something local?

dennism70

Yes you can have the app downloaded thru a QR Code or landingpage offcourse

I did ones create a Android app from appgeyser (free) and you get a link you can put on any picture like; download our app here. And you can create an app from your mobile site And I believe it updates to...

dennism70

Haha, no, thats the only one I tried ones. It converts a website doesn't it? At least thats what I recall. So if you have a mobile website it does just that and shows your mobile site as an app.

But must be more providing that services. I didn't go in to apps because I believe it doesn't add value above mobile sites and I think in a wile people will ignore marketing apps anyway. Most people go look for an app doing what the want it to do (games, programs, etc.) and not for yet another salespage or alikes. I dont think its the platform to sell unless you sell an app for being an app.

JToneyUK

OK so today my kitchen is flooded and I need a local plumber to come and sort the problem, I find his site but I need to download his app to get a nice discount,

Tomorrow I lock my car keys inside the car. I need a locksmith to help me out, and again I need to download his app to get 10% off.

Friday I need a birthday cake for my niece, so I find a local patisserie and they offer 20% off a cake when downloaded their app.

In the space of 3 days I've needed three different services. I've found all of them via the website, but I now have 3 apps installed on my phone that I'm probably not going to use again any time soon.

In these examples, it seems pointless to have to download an app for a one off service. Since I'm visiting the site in the first place, why not just offer 10% discount in return for their mobile number for future text marketing purposes.

I don't want my phone clogged up with apps for every shop in my local town on the off chance I might need their service.

Think about it.

rlhurst

Exactly...

dennism70

iBrandvertise

Offcourse you can get a HTML5 with app29...duhhh You're suppost to pay for it right...

But still, ask yourself WHY you want an app? Just to have one? Or is it to have a purpose? Still with everything you tell a mobile website will do just fine and dont get your hopes up to high about being found between the millions of apps in 1 place.

Just build a mobile site, put a QRcode on flyers or anythink else (businesscard) that people can hold to and your the ONLY visible party with your service.

Here's a nice idea for what you want...-> http://napasearch.mobi it's on the thread about SMS serviceses how to do it different and get people in and lots more of ideas about mobile marketing.
You can find it here http://www.warriorforum.com/mobile-m...rketing-5.html

I really believe that besides programs and games there is not much use for apps and they will be treated likewise by users. Maybe a listing app is nice, but still it would be easier to do that on a mobile.

And about the app downloading from a mobile page. It has its use to be on their phone of your potential customers.But then again, bookmarking does the same. And like someone mentioned, good residual income is possible with sms services on your couponpage read the link I send above and you'll see what I mean

Never trust anyone talking about solutions being the best and then offer it as well!!! App29 seems to try and convince everyone that app's are better haha. But in fact they are about the same with slight differences

TheLocalCoach

Anyone else have a phone full of Apps they never use?

Apps can be extremely beneficial and useful for some businesses, but I agree with many on the thread that mobile sites can accomplish most of the same things (and most good mobi site builders install app Icons, which many people confuse for a real App anyway).

SOme biz owners will buy Apps, but often just for the coolness factor and bragging rights. As others have stated, the usage for most non-game Apps falls off the charts after first 30 days.

Nevertheless its a great debate and some great comments (and advice here on this thread).

Amber Jalink

Just a note re: the responsive vs mobile - I've been saying "responsive" for nearly 6 months now lol - and others thought I was nuts....

BUT - Here's some info from Google directly re: which one to use:

Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Making Websites Mobile Friendly

and

(updates 6 days ago) - Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Recommendations for building smartphone-optimized websites

Google says Responsive design is: "This is Google’s recommended configuration"

So there you have it

It's getting a little late here and I didn't sleep great over the past 2 nights so I'm hitting the hay a bit early, but my recommendation is for apps vs mobile:

ALWAYS do a mobile website (preferably responsive design = one site to update, no other hassles).

BUT - "Some" businesses might want an app. I think it's best for companies like restaurants or bars and radio stations who might run contests, prizes, and occasional daily deals (rest/bar).

Yes, I have app memberships - but I do think that as others said, it can also be overkill.

Also, I have a Blackberry (like many other Canadians) - and apps that work on the iphone or android, DON'T work on Blackberries. It's also more expensive to do an app for the blackberry (as a developer).

HTML5 sites (responsive sites) work just as good.

In some cases, simply a text newsletter list will be just as good as an app.

Just my thoughts.

Amber Jalink, Founder http://www.dime-co.com
WSO - Create Native Apps - Prelaunch Announcement

Jay Moreno

There is nothing wrong with responsive if it is done well and provides the end user with a good mobile experience, which from my experience it usually isn't the case... Pages in terms sizable size are bigger, have more bloate code, are usually slower to load and longer and often harder to navigate than those of a mobile optimized page.

Responsive is not always possible to implement especially on an existing site either.

Whilst google recommends responsive design, don't take it at face value that it will be ok just to add any old responsive theme to your site, check out googles online speed tool for mobile see how well it rates - does score +90? How does it fair on GoMo...

Also don't forget what is the most important factor?

Which has to be ultimately the end user experience - the end user doesn't really care if the the mobile version of the site is responsive, optimized or adaptive what they care about is if they can get the information that they are looking for quickly and with minimal navigation issues...

Whilst responsive maybe "easier" for google to index a page, it's not necessarily the best solutin for the end user. What we are finding is that responsive design is perfect for desktop and tablets, and perhaps not so bad for small devices that have larger screens and ultra fast data connections like the 4g LTE with relatively unrestricted data transfer limitations... But there are still literally 100s of 1000s of users that don have that luxury, whilst Android is out stripping sales and activation like never before, take into account that not all android devices are like the Samsung S2's and 3s but have much smaller and cut down versions of the operating system with much smaller screen size... Many users don't want necessarily the content that's delivered to a desktop site but instead want that content specifically cut optimized for quick information on the go.

There is no real silver bullet and each designer/developer should go with what they think is best for their client however for me and my business we believe the best solution right now is to offer our clients an adaptive design which similar to a responsive design serves the content on the same URL, it renders the most optmized and valid code specifically to suit the device that is viewing the content, but still gives the users the option to switch to see the regular site.

With an adaptive design the advantages over a responsive design is ten fold, the file size is smaller, the performance is faster and you can still provide the end user with optimized mobile content or the same desktop content. Furthermore with an adaptive design you can also support older devices too that struggle with html5 and JavaScript by serving them XHTML MP compliant code that's also JavaScript free.

Very few people do adaptive design because it takes time and understanding just like if your developing a responsive design from scratch. But adding an adaptive framework is no different than installing another theme or plugin If you where using a cms for, think WP Touch for an example. Whilst its far from perfect it's hard to argue that it doesn't deliver a better mobile experience, granted it does lack overall aesthetic appeal but this is possibly one of he better known adaptive frameworks out there.

It also comes down to how complex a site you are doing and the budget of a project too. Its usually best to keep it simple as in KISS but these are all mobile developer strategies that have their place.

Take a look at the top 200 sites on Alexa and you will see most big companies opt for a mobile optimized site over a responsive design... Personally I believe that's for the benefit of the end user mobile experience.

For right here and right now my preference is optimized adaptive design for small mobile devices, responsive design for desktops and tablets.

Hope that helps anyone who cares to read all that lol

Cheers

Jay

mjbmedia

As I understand it (and Im no way technical) with responsive HTML5 Css etc type sites you can decide which content gets shown on which medium , so whats relevant to desktop users isnt relevant to mobile users , just choose not to show it to mobile users via is it CSS coding? , all the one same site so advantageous for SEO, just different display allowed.

The future is highly likely to be HTML5 over any other method, new development will likely be that way too, therefore it makes sense to go that path now, even if its not ideal right now, you can still have a more basic mobile site alongside the responsive one that can be used on the dumbphones whilst people upgrade to smartphones.

Remember too that people with dumbphones are far far less likely to respond to mobile marketing anyway as they still havent bought in to the whole concept so are they even your target market yet , whilst they cant be totally ignored the focus should be on the future if youre planning a longer term deal for your clients

Mike

Amber Jalink

LOL - I read it all I totally agree that it is always about the user experience. Designers - if using responsive design (or any mobile design) has to remember that most phones don't support flash.

When I design sites for my client (and I have a new chiropractor to meet with next week who I'm doing a site for) - I always make sure they are kept simple. I don't "do" complicated sites, so for my clients its not an issue. Of course when I say simple, I don't mean dull and boring, just that it's kept with the key facts in mind:

- click or tap to call from mobile (with a phone # in case on a desktop)
- responsive theme minimizes or removes big graphics when it appears on a mobile device
- always keep contact info near the top and easy to get to - for any device



And that's when SMS becomes a useful tool, because even most dumbphones can send and receive text messages.

Amber Jalink, Founder http://www.dime-co.com
WSO - Create Native Apps - Prelaunch Announcement

Amber Jalink

Sorry - meant to add to that - the people with dumbphones aren't the target market for mobile sites anyway. "Some" are web enabled, but most aren't, so they would be using a tablet or desktop anyway.

Amber Jalink, Founder http://www.dime-co.com
WSO - Create Native Apps - Prelaunch Announcement

Social Guy

Nice insights people. Thanks for contributing more to my question

Jay Moreno

Using HTML5 and a responsive design you may choose not to display something on a mobile site that is displayed on a desktop site using CSS but that content still gets downloaded. What that means is that if a page is say +1000kb or more which is easily done on a responsive design due to the amount of scripts and images it contains, just because you dont show certain elements it still downloads that content. So your mobile device is still downloading +1000kb for one single page (not good when you have bad network connection *shudder*) - this will without a doubt inhibit and effect the overall performance of your mobile site to the end user. The only way around that is to make all your images load via your CSS as background images. But no one usually ever takes the time to do this...

Using an adaptive design that exact same page in most instance would be under 50kb as would an optimized mobile page. Typically its the inline images and JavaScript that are the biggest culprits of page bloat.

Dont forget a certain number of "Dumbphones" aren't so dumb but also fall under a cut down version of the android operating system... albeit with a cut down web browser and smaller screen size than our lovely smartphones. The epic rise in Android activated sales, and activation is partially due to these as they are often literally given away as free or for a penny. We know for a fact that slightly older Blackberries for example don't play nice with JavaScript, you can still purchase brand new Blackberry curves that have this issue, is this a dumbphone or a smartphone or simply a bad purchase decision - so why risk alienating anyone at all that could be a potential new sale or client because their phone isn't mobile compatible with a responsive design... is your mobile site mobile ready or almost mobile ready! lol

Remember some people are locked into a 2yr contract with their phone - just because they made a bad choice then or a smartphone wasn't in their budget then doesn't mean to say they don't follow current mobile trends and use their phones to surf. It takes a little bit of forward thinking and minimal code adaption to make your site compatible to the widest and broadest range of mobile users.

Focus should certainly be on the future but no so far ahead that technology isn't totally ready for it and imposes on the end user experience... our view is use whats available right here and right now and applicable to the broadest range of mobile users giving them the BEST user experience - yes Smartphones can handle responsive designs but the mobile network provides and bandwidth limitations restrictions the use of this technology and its development, if everyone was running on a 4G LTE network or better and had unlimited data restrictions i would say use responsive... but sadly everyone isn't

mjbmedia

Cheers Jay , I got that now and understand your points.

Mike

Jay Moreno

just because a site uses an adaptive design or is optimized for mobile it doesn't need to be dull and boring! its down to the designer to make sure its not!

Jay Moreno

Thanks for posting the question! lol - You could say am some what passionate about the cause and the mobile revolution in general!

Social Guy

I can see! My English writing is not fast so I read more than I write.. Your responses are exactly the way I feel about mobile / responsive etc.

Jay Moreno

Hi Amber,

With responsive design if your minimizing the inline images - that means you are still downloading the large images.. which will effect performance in two ways:

One, the time it takes to download images, and the overall page.

Two resources and time it takes to scale that image down - more so if there a lot of images on one particular page.

With responsive design if your hiding the inline images - that means you are still downloading the large images...

The only way around this is to not make your images not inline but instead make them background images and serve optimize images using your css

With adaptive design you don't serve large images period. They are literally re-sized and cached for better performance on the server. An adaptive framework should handle all of your images sizing them properly so that the phone does not need to scale them period. This is far better for download speeds and performance.

Hope that helps clarify.

Cheers,

Jay

TrumpiaTim

I say mobile websites since that's where the buzz really is right now!

Social Guy

Jay, maybe I missed something.. With adaptive design, what do you mean exactly? Is that a mobile website? I 100% agree with your viewpoint about mobile website / responsive but adaptive is new for me..

ChristopherGabriel

Mobile Apps and Mobile Sites both serve their own purposes,

In my experience I have only enhanced my internet marketing agenda by adding mobile apps into the mix.

First benefit: Free traffic, if you make mobile apps with an internet marketing agenda then I'm sure you've experienced surges of targeted traffic that is more or less free, and there is very little work involved to bring it into fruition.

What can you do with this free traffic?

Links to your mobile site (winner, free app traffic to your "related" mobile site)

Mobile opt-in (I have had success with mobile opt-ins, they can be buyers too)

Mobile CPA (send free traffic to a related mobile CPA offer, works wonders on Android Market, I don't use this with IoS/Kindle traffic)

Second benefit: Some local businesses appreciate the "wow factor" of mobile apps, push notification is definitely easier to manage than SMS and with much lower cost obligations (no cost really), this has been my experience anyways maybe I am wrong.

Does a plumber want a mobile app? No... It is not for everyone, it is not for every business. Someone calls a plumber when their pipes burst or if they need emergency services, this is not the best candidate for a mobile app because the needs of service can be sporadic.

A good candidate would be a night club, a local restaurant, an established business that has repetitive customers that are loyal with low ticket items. If someone enjoys going out on the weekends with their friends and having drinks, I would consider them a red hot prospect for a "bar" mobile app with push notifications. I have mobile apps in the bar scene and some in the restaurant scene.

If you offer your apps through QR codes on print, then there is virtually no approval process. Apps do not have to be listed on the markets to be installed on a mobile device, there are ways around this for some devices. It is not beneficial to list these apps on the app markets for local businesses, the traffic will be "non-local" and "non-targeted".

Like most have said, apps have their own purpose in the mobile environment, but I don't think it is a purpose that is universal, there is a lot of room to play.

Jay Moreno

Hi Social,

Adaptive design is very similar to responsive however the key differences are how the end user receives the content.

A responsive design swaps the CSS to re-arrange the content to suit the screensize viewing the content... however all the inline coding stays the same. Images also stay the same size (as in kilobytes) regardless if they are used or not, if they are inline images within the HTML structure they still get downloaded. The images maybe hidden by the CSS so as not to be viewed by user, but because they are inline the end user still ends up downloading them.

If the inline images are used, typically more processing power is needed by the browser to scale the images down (in terms of dimension ie px or em) to fit the screen.

The non- optimized images or content of a responsive layout etc, are not particularly an issue for Google's mobile searchbot since it doesn't have a screen size to worry about the content fitting or not, plus it is neither in a hurry/emergency looking to quickly access content on a locksmith or plumbers website lol and i doubt its probably having to deal a slow internet connection or a bad reception!

An adaptive design will not only change out the CSS to suit the browser/mobile device viewing the page - but it will serve a totally different and much more light weight HTML structure that is much quicker to render and faster to deliver to the visitor.

Think how WordPress uses template switchers based on the type of device that is viewing the content or perhaps how WP Touch works. It literally changes the desktop template to a relatively mobile friendly layout with a completely different HTML layout which in turn completely changes the way the code is formatted and the way the site looks to the end user depending what browser they are using. But still uses the same textual content and delivers its still using the same URL.

I personally think WP Touch is far from perfect but hopefully using that as example makes more sense and light to what an adaptive design is/does.

This is really just the tip of the iceberg though with what can be done, since there is no silver bullet or one glove fits all when it comes to mobile, we use this type of adaptive design as to us its the closest solution to date right now that works across the broadest range of mobile devices.

We are using it to determine the type of document type to render ie HTML5 or XHTML MP compliant to help with validation.

We use an adaptive approach to choose the way the menus are structured, and to determine what scripts to load and not load.

We use it to determine how images are displayed and sized so they are not just simply scaled by the browser but actually smaller formatted images.

We use our knowledge, experience and understanding and incorporate it into our adaptive designs to try and forgo any potential pitfalls of known problems with the limitations of certain mobile browsers.

We dont user User Agent detection just for redirecting people but instead we use it for delivering and serving the most optimized and light weight mobile content possible to the end user meaning they get what they are looking for quicker and formatted perfectly for their phone.

With adapative design you don't just hide things, and scale things to suit the browser but actually deliver only what is needed and formatted correctly efficiently - this improves both performance, compatibility and leads to a better mobile experience.

Why slow down your visitors by forcing them to download unnecessary images and files each time they move between pages especially when they are not even viewed by them? With an adaptive design you only give them what they need!

hope that makes sense

cheers

jay

PS and that ladies and gentleman was my 1000th post! lol

Social Guy

Whow, congratulations with your 1000th! I'm just allowed to send DM's since a couple of day's

Thanks for your insight! I understand what you are saying but have to get my web designer to read it so he can put it in to practice I just try to sell the best solution I can offer (combined with his programming and designer skills).

Jay Moreno

if they have questions feel free to pm me

Mr Bill

Responsive or mobile? The two are not mutually exclusive.

I build stand alone mobile websites and to me that is RESPONDING to a mobile visitor. His normal full size websites is responsive because it responds to the viewer by offering them a mobile optimised experience just like google wants. When Google say "responsive" they don't really care if it's the same pages all squashed up or a specific page that's designed to light and mobile friendly. They put more weight into speed than "squashability" and so my mobile pages always win the speed test.

When I see a "responsive" (in the usual meaning of the term as used in this context) design that looks even half as good as my mobile sites I'll buy it. The fact is I've not seen any that are suitable or that provide a decent mobile experience. If there was a way (one day) to adjust the way a site looks, while keeping it easy to use, light on it's footprint and doesn't load a shi* load of garbage and unnecessary code and massive images...I'll start using it.

A nice clean mobile website (which is actually faster to update than an app no matter what anyone tries to tell you) is responsive (to the user's needs), will load a heap faster, will look much better and will be the responsible thing to do for a client who wants a good mobile experience for their clients. All this squashing up of wordpress sites into narrow very long columns of endless scrolling has got to stop or people need to stop referring to these types of mods as being the new or better way to go. It's just not true.

wndrshare

Responsive Web Design is a method of building websites that are highly functional on wide range of desktops & provide “app-like” experiences on mobile..

Best Regards,
Spy Mobile Software
Online Spy Softwares

Mr Bill

Thanks for that cut and paste it has added significantly to our understanding of the topic. :rolleyes:

RaymondB

App29 nice points!

Friendly advice, useful tips...
Raymond B.

getnewonline

all i have t say for you is GOOD LUCK