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This Country Just Abolished College Tuition Fees

by TLTheLiberator
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This Country Just Abolished College Tuition Fees | ThinkProgress
  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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    Welcome to the hordes of professional philosophy students.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Free education is a concept that is embraced in most of Europe
      I don't think they understand what the word "free" actually means.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I don't think they understand what the word "free" actually means.
        They don't.

        Many people don't.

        This article perhaps provides a slightly more balanced perspective of the subject: Germany
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

    Makes sense to invest in the future. They are doing it with green energy also. An interesting point the article made was about how the US could easily make the cost of attending public universities free for students by restructuring the current budget. That makes too much sense though.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Makes sense to invest in the future.

      They are doing it with green energy also. An interesting point the article made was about how the US could easily make the cost of attending public universities free for students by restructuring the current budget. That makes too much sense though.
      It does make a lot of sense to invest in the future.

      I think the German leadership feels guilty for the historic hell they put their folks through so now they're trying to make up for it - and I think they're doing a great job.

      I think the tax rate for middle class Germans is around 45%-50% total including all other taxes. It may be a bit more - I'm not sure.

      IMHO, I think most Americans - like 75% of us, would gladly trade 45-50% of their income for...

      - Good unemployment insurance:

      - Good retirement packages:

      - No tuition for higher education:

      - Free health insurance:
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        It does make a lot of sense to invest in the future.

        I think the German leadership feels guilty for the historic hell they put their folks through so now they're trying to make up for it - and I think they're doing a great job.

        I think the tax rate for middle class Germans is around 45%-50% total including all other taxes. It may be a bit more - I'm not sure.

        IMHO, I think most Americans - like 75% of us, would gladly trade 45-50% of their income for...

        - Good unemployment insurance:

        - Good retirement packages:

        - No tuition for higher education:

        - Free health insurance:
        There you are with that funny math again! 45-50% would be LESS than 45-50% extra, since we are paying like over 30% to begin with. But YEAH, if the SHTF and I thought I had to go elsewhere, Germany is one place I would consider. Every time I think about it, I get more resolve on improving my german.

        July 3rd of THIS YEAR, Germany approved it's FIRST minimum wage! It is 8.50EUR. That is SUPPOSED to be $8.5USD BUT, thanks to the US not doingITS job, it is $10.75

        BTW Realize that they have VAT taxes! And IIRC, they DON'T have good retirement packages!

        They do *******NOT******* have "free health insurance, as you imply! They Have ******THREE TYPES*****!

        1. Government employee/welfare insurance. This is like our Medicare
        2. "Law-enforced health insurance" (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung). This is an employer type insurance, like the US had for many jobs.
        3. "Private" (Private Krankenversicherung). This is like our OLD private insurance.

        So it was KIND of like what Obama *******PROMISED*******, but they did NOT deliver THAT one! The ONLY way, the PROMISED one, is different from our old system is that #2 was enforced by law, rather than convention, and #1 is more general(As Obama promised).

        BTW on the free college! They have had at least 2 paths for a VERY long time. Only ONE was for college. I am surprised to see that if you get to a certain point on the OTHER path you can now attend college, but it isn't as easy as if you passed the abitur. As for the college path? It hinges on ONE test! They recently reduced the college bound school to 12 years, to be like the US and others. It USED to be 13 years. They found that too many were FAILING the test. I believe they brought back the 13 year path though.

        And HEY, I thought you guys HATED Germany! I mean WWI and WWII and you constantly poke fun at things, and a person from Germany even talks about people doing things like brian on "family guy" when HE went to Germany. And he speaks against all the stupid stereotypes, etc... When Hitler became chancellor, his attempts were laughed at, and he was put in jail. NOW, the punishment for even PLANNING such things, or advertising certain ideas, is WORSE, ETC... And Germany HATES the way all your favorite countries spend money like water. You guys said Germany should NOT get such an ability, but they got a LOT of say in who gets funding for what! So they are CONSTANTLY saying ******NO******!


        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          IMHO, I think most Americans - like 75% of us, would gladly trade 45-50% of their income for...

          - Good unemployment insurance:

          - Good retirement packages:

          - No tuition for higher education:

          - Free health insurance:
          You do know that your 75% number is larger the the percent of Americans who actually pay federal taxes, don't you? Social security, medicare, state and local taxes yes, federal income tax no.
          Most people are having a hard time making ends meet as it is and you think the majority want to give up more of their income for benefits they may or may not ever use?

          I also see you're someone else who doesn't understand what the word free means.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            You do know that your 75% number is larger the the percent of Americans who actually pay federal taxes, don't you?
            I noticed that, too.

            The article Alexa posted is fascinating and provides history of education in German that I wasn't aware of. There was a paragraph that resonated because, though written about the UK, it also speaks to the US experience:

            Thirty years ago, the UK gambled its economic future on the neoliberal promise of a new knowledge economy, in which money could be made without making anything else.

            There was no point in trying to maintain manufacturing jobs in the UK, our politicians insisted: far better to adapt to the new reality and build a post-industrial economy on a new model.

            For decades, Germany was treated with disdain by the Anglo-American axis, which boasted that it had found a new high road to growth. The bursting of the US housing bubble in 2007, the meltdown of the international financial system and the revelation of deep-seated corruption in the financial sector has silenced those boasts, and set the UK scrambling to "rebalance the economy", that is, to reindustrialise more along the lines of the German model.
            Back in the 1970's the US business model focused on the "service industry". The experts predicted we were too civilized to do the messy industrial work and would transition into a customer service model the world would envy. How's that worked out?

            I remember when business journals bragged about the new American white collar focus and had no respect for the blue collar lifestyle of countries like Germany.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Just found an interesting graph about the work force changes

              Dallas Fed Sectoral Employment Charts - Business Insider
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Just found an interesting graph about the work force changes

                Dallas Fed Sectoral Employment Charts - Business Insider
                Interesting, but there are basically missing pieces of information. For example, over the last 50 years or so, corporations have reduced some inefficiencies, changed some things, and automated things. That means the number of jobs quickly dropped, but production didn't. Is that ALL that happened?

                The service industry numbers have become more and more meaningless, and SKYROCKETED, relative to reality, in 2014. So don't be fooled.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  What it shows is the trend over quite a period of time....away from manufacturing and agriculture...and toward support/service models.

                  Much of the agricultural decline is due to emergence of huge farming conglomerates and the reduction in family run farms. In large part - that is the automation mentioned. Bigger equipment farming huge tracts of land - less people required to grow the same or more food.

                  Manufacturing isn't that simple. Yes, you have automation and less work required to build certain things. But that should be replaced with MORE manufacturing of more goods...and it hasn't been.

                  We used to have great debates at the university about the trend to "service model" employment and the potential weakness of a "customer service" mentality. The popular view at the time was "we don't want to get our hands dirty with those nasty jobs". There was an arrogance about the "kind of work we are willing to do" that has come back to bite us...in my opinion anyway.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    What it shows is the trend over quite a period of time....away from manufacturing and agriculture...and toward support/service models.

                    Much of the agricultural decline is due to emergence of huge farming conglomerates and the reduction in family run farms. In large part - that is the automation mentioned. Bigger equipment farming huge tracts of land - less people required to grow the same or more food.

                    Manufacturing isn't that simple. Yes, you have automation and less work required to build certain things. But that should be replaced with MORE manufacturing of more goods...and it hasn't been.

                    We used to have great debates at the university about the trend to "service model" employment and the potential weakness of a "customer service" mentality. The popular view at the time was "we don't want to get our hands dirty with those nasty jobs". There was an arrogance about the "kind of work we are willing to do" that has come back to bite us...in my opinion anyway.
                    I was SHOCKED when they went to surface mounted parts in electronics. It seemed like so little benefit for the trouble. NOW, they have taken that a step further, and managed to get MACHINES to place parts from rolls. The result? Work I thought would take a LONG time to replace has ALREADY been replaced. Sometimes even I am astounded by what has happened. A little company in new York, for example, showed off their new purchase. It is such a machine, and probably takes up the space of 2 assembly stations. It replaces maybe a couple dozen assembly stations on a work basis.

                    Of course, companies like John Deere have automated vehicles. They will even provide the computing power. You can program one to harvest your entire crop! You don't even need a driver!

                    The idea that americans won't do X is just utter NONSENSE! AND, not to be racist, YEAH, even intelligent whites would pick up garbage, fix sewers, dig ditches, etc... HEY, SOMEBODY has to do it. and it really CAN'T be LEGALLY outsourced. GEE, ever see dirty jobs with Mike Rowe? There are plenty of times the people he works with are like he is.

                    Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I noticed that, too.
              Sometimes I miss thinkgs like that. 8-(YEAH, there is the 47% and MAYBE 60% or so of THOSE might like the IDEA of the insurance, etc.... Out of THOSE, maybe 70% will get to REGRET IT!

              Back in the 1970's the US business model focused on the "service industry". The experts predicted we were too civilized to do the messy industrial work and would transition into a customer service model the world would envy. How's that worked out?
              WOW! I did NOT know that! Civilizations have ALWAYS been marked by what they *********MADE*********! STONE AGE, BRONZE AGE, COMPUTER AGE, ETC.... Even the most PRIMITIVE of people could sell the newest thing. MANY early computer companies actually HID deficiencies from sales people so the sales people could cite even WORTHLESS features as major advantages! Don't get me wrong, it IS best that a salesperson be practically an expert at what they sell, but most know VERY LITTLE about what they sell.

              And You can't sell something unless SOMEONE made it, refined it, or at least packaged it up!

              I remember when business journals bragged about the new American white collar focus and had no respect for the blue collar lifestyle of countries like Germany.
              Not all whitecollars are service or spotless. I have actually gotten on my knees and worked in greasy areas, etc... I have worked perhaps every computer related job out there, And not all bluecollars manufacture. And GERMANY isn't devoid of white collars. In fact, until relatively recently, they had a more formal relationship than we have.

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post




              Back in the 1970's the US business model focused on the "service industry". The experts predicted we were too civilized to do the messy industrial work and would transition into a customer service model the world would envy.
              I was around in the 70s also and took business classes in college. Never heard anything like the idea that we were too civilized to do messy industrial work. That just sounds silly. I do recall talk about the coming information revolution which we are in the midst of and also a bit later the service economy which is certainly a big part of our current economy, including most of our most successful companies.
              Service economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                If you didn't hear or read that - you missed some stuff. I think we assumed the growing "info age" would be something we could control.

                The "clean jobs" was not just to keep hands clean - there was a growing sense of environmental concern back then mainly focused on air quality. It was in the 70's that requirements began to increase for cars and their polluting exhaust.

                Many manufacturing plants, steel mills, etc - belched huge amounts of black smoke into the air. That was part of the concept of "clean jobs".

                I remember in the late 70s a friend of mine was rapidly becoming the first computer geek at the university (he ended up head of the program for 25 years). Over lunch one day I was asking about the "computer rooms" as I was fascinated with the huge, cooled rooms lined with all the racks and the lights, etc. He told me most people had no idea how computers would change their lives or how much we would come to rely on them.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  If you didn't hear or read that - you missed some stuff.
                  I'm glad I missed that because it's bs. I don't think this was some widespread view though.
                  The "clean jobs" was not just to keep hands clean - there was a growing sense of environmental concern back then mainly focused on air quality. It was in the 70's that requirements began to increase for cars and their polluting.
                  Sounds like a good thing, unlike being "too civilized to do messy industrial work" which just makes us seem like snobby a holes.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            You do know that your 75% number is larger the the percent of Americans who actually pay federal taxes, don't you? Social security, medicare, state and local taxes yes, federal income tax no.
            Most people are having a hard time making ends meet as it is and you think the majority want to give up more of their income for benefits they may or may not ever use?

            I also see you're someone else who doesn't understand what the word free means.

            As far as the word "free" is concerned, you can play semantics all day long if that's what pleases you.

            How about if the 22 years olds of America are given the choice of what we have now and choosing to have a bit more of their income set aside for major concerns as in Germany today?

            - I'll bet that 75% of them would opt for that German/European type of plan I mentioned earlier in this thread.

            - I'll also say I bet 75% of working Americans would opt for that type of plan - if the benefits are clearly explained. And those not paying federal taxes now would have to pay more than paying now as in something.

            As far as your thoughts of people paying for something they'll never use...

            - Everybody's going to retire one day or at least be of retirement age and no one I know wants to go into retirement age seriously struggling for the basic necessities.

            Another 1,2 or 3% taken from everyone's paycheck for Social security would make for a more generous payout upon retirement.

            There could be two or more levels of retirement benefits revolving around how much was contributed by the citizen during the course of their lifetime of work.

            - Everybody has brothers and sisters, cousins, friends etc. that will have a need for education of some sort.

            Another 1-2% from everybody paying taxes can help pay for no tuition higher education.

            - Everybody going to need medical care sooner or later and most people should understand the need to have health insurance for regular checkups/maintenance and to also insure their families against a catastrophic medical bill.

            Thankfully, we've already got the ACA but Medicare for all would be even better and cheaper for all.

            - Everyone may need unemployment protection sooner or later.

            Another 1-2% from the employee and the employer would make for more generous unemployment benefits.

            That just another 7-10% from everyone working to make for a better set of safety net programs.

            BTW...

            Everyone paying a mortgage has been and is being helped by taxpayers with the mortgage tax deduction.

            - Our tax base is so huge I bet we shouldn't have to tax at a 45-50% tax rate to fulfill all of the obligations in this type of more generous social contract. I bet we could get away with it being closer to 45% total taxes - federal and state combined.

            - Of course, all the extra gravy loopholes in the tax code should be closed and the top rates on the wealthy should be raised to also help pay for something like this.

            - I say raise the top tax rate to at least 50% and make sure its collected. That would help make up for all the lower income people who are now working but not paying federal income taxes - who now would be asked to pay a little bit more for the plan.

            IMHO, this nation has the resources to provide a much more generous safety net.

            We have the resources and IMHO, It's just a matter of a little bit more money coming from everyone working, the wealthy and smarter allocation of resources/programs to help make America a much more fun place to live and raise a family.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              As far as the word "free" is concerned, you can play semantics all day long if that's what pleases you.

              How about if the 22 years olds of America are given the choice of what we have now and choosing to have a bit more of their income set aside for major concerns as in Germany today?

              - I'll bet that 75% of them would opt for that German/European type of plan I mentioned earlier in this thread.

              - I'll also say I bet 75% of working Americans would opt for that type of plan - if the benefits are clearly explained. And those not paying federal taxes now would have to pay more than paying now as in something.

              As far as your thoughts of people paying for something they'll never use...

              - Everybody's going to retire one day or at least be of retirement age and no one I know wants to go into retirement age seriously struggling for the basic necessities.

              Another 1,2 or 3% taken from everyone's paycheck for Social security would make for a more generous payout upon retirement.

              There could be two or more levels of retirement benefits revolving around how much was contributed by the citizen during the course of their lifetime of work.

              - Everybody has brothers and sisters, cousins, friends etc. that will have a need for education of some sort.

              Another 1-2% from everybody paying taxes can help pay for no tuition higher education.

              - Everybody going to need medical care sooner or later and most people should understand the need to have health insurance for regular checkups/maintenance and to also insure their families against a catastrophic medical bill.

              Thankfully, we've already got the ACA but Medicare for all would be even better and cheaper for all.

              - Everyone may need unemployment protection sooner or later.

              Another 1-2% from the employee and the employer would make for more generous unemployment benefits.

              That just another 7-10% from everyone working to make for a better set of safety net programs.

              BTW...

              Everyone paying a mortgage has been and is being helped by taxpayers with the mortgage tax deduction.

              - Our tax base is so huge I bet we shouldn't have to tax at a 45-50% tax rate to fulfill all of the obligations in this type of more generous social contract. I bet we could get away with it being closer to 45% total taxes - federal and state combined.

              - Of course, all the extra gravy loopholes in the tax code should be closed and the top rates on the wealthy should be raised to also help pay for something like this.

              - I say raise the top tax rate to at least 50% and make sure its collected. That would help make up for all the lower income people who are now working but not paying federal income taxes - who now would be asked to pay a little bit more for the plan.

              IMHO, this nation has the resources to provide a much more generous safety net.

              We have the resources and IMHO, It's just a matter of a little bit more money coming from everyone working, the wealthy and smarter allocation of resources/programs to help make America a much more fun place to live and raise a family.
              As far as the word free goes, maybe you should use it properly, you know look up the definition.

              How about you give 22 year olds a choice on weather they want to keep more of their income for themselves so they can decide if they want their future in their hands or a politicians. The younger generation is paying attention to the government and if you think they want to entrust their future to it, you're delusional.

              Again people are paying attention so I seriously don't think you'd find 20 percent of the working population willing to give more of their money to the government based on what they already know will be false promises. If you think those who aren't paying federal income tax now will want to start paying, then again you're delusional.

              The rest is just drivel based on you're love of government control.
              You seem to think the government is some benevolent organization that wants to take our money to make our lives better when nothing could be further from the truth. Min. wage, originally used to keep blacks out of jobs and provide employment for whites. Now it's being used to keep teens and unskilled labor out of the work force. Welfare is used to keep the poor in their place. Medicare flat out sucks (I have medicare).
              So what people get a tax break on their mortgage interest payments, they should.
              As for the ACA you're so in love with The Effects of the Affordable Care Act on Small Business | NCPA
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Here's one of those young people you think will be so willing to give up more of their income to the govt. talking about food stamps. Kristin Tate: Food Stamps Program Rife with Fraud - YouTube
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                As far as the word free goes, maybe you should use it properly, you know look up the definition.

                How about you give 22 year olds a choice on weather they want to keep more of their income for themselves so they can decide if they want their future in their hands or a politicians. The younger generation is paying attention to the government and if you think they want to entrust their future to it, you're delusional.

                Again people are paying attention so I seriously don't think you'd find 20 percent of the working population willing to give more of their money to the government based on what they already know will be false promises. If you think those who aren't paying federal income tax now will want to start paying, then again you're delusional.

                The rest is just drivel based on you're love of government control.

                You seem to think the government is some benevolent organization that wants to take our money to make our lives better when nothing could be further from the truth. Min. wage, originally used to keep blacks out of jobs and provide employment for whites. Now it's being used to keep teens and unskilled labor out of the work force.

                Welfare is used to keep the poor in their place. Medicare flat out sucks (I have medicare).

                So what people get a tax break on their mortgage interest payments, they should.

                As for the ACA you're so in love with The Effects of the Affordable Care Act on Small Business | NCPA

                You're entitled...

                One of the primary reasons people have a problem with medicare is because it isn't generous enough.

                I'm glad you like the fact that Americans team up via the tax code to help other Americans purchase a home.

                We won't be sure about the ACA's impact on small business and right now and anything said is just a matter of opinion - but time will tell.

                In any event I demolished your proclamation/inference that the ACA is not helpful to the effort to contain federal medical expenditures.

                Please don't bring it up again because we've already been over this before. I'm going to cut an save the posting so that I can re-post it the next time and save myself 5-10 minutes of research.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  You're entitled...

                  One of the primary reasons people have a problem with medicare is because it isn't generous enough.

                  I'm glad you like the fact that Americans team up via the tax code to help other Americans purchase a home.

                  We won't be sure about the ACA's impact on small business and right now anything said is just a matter of opinion - but time will tell.

                  In any event I demolished your proclamation/inference that the ACA is not helpful to the effort to contain federal medical expenditures.

                  Please don't bring it up again because we've already been over this before. I'm going to cut an save the posting so that I can re-post it the next time and save myself 5-10 minutes of research.
                  And how did you do that?
                  Here's what the younger generation thinks about it all.
                  December 4, 2013 - Unlikely to Enroll, Majority of Millennials Believe Costs will Rise and Quality of Care will Fall Under New Health Care Law, Harvard IOP Poll Finds | The Institute of Politics at Harvard University
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post


                    I showed you how the CBO contradicts your posting that the ACA won't help curb the federal expenditures for health care.


                    And as we seen time and time again what people think and their predictions can be as wrong as a $3 bill.

                    BTW...

                    Enough millennials in fact have signed up for the ACA during the first open enrollment period for individuals.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    I'm in the wrong thread.

                    See the thread about Chart About Recent Expansions In The American Economy:

                    post #28.


                    I'll post this in the proper thread about Recent Expansions In The American Economy.

                    In any event I demolished your proclamation/inference that the ACA is not helpful to the effort to contain federal medical expenditures.

                    Please don't bring it up again because we've already been over this before. I'm going to cut an save the posting so that I can re-post it the next time and save myself 5-10 minutes of research.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      I'm in the wrong thread.

                      See the thread about Chart About Recent Expansions In The American Economy:

                      post #28.


                      I'll post this in the proper thread about Recent Expansions In The American Economy.

                      In any event I demolished your proclamation/inference that the ACA is not helpful to the effort to contain federal medical expenditures.

                      Please don't bring it up again because we've already been over this before. I'm going to cut an save the posting so that I can re-post it the next time and save myself 5-10 minutes of research.
                      You mean the DNC doesn't keep it in a neat package for you? :/
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  I demolished your proclamation/inference
                  ...and we know that's what counts. If the plan is as great as you keep saying - it will stand on its own. There'll be no need to protect the govt from critiques of citizens.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    ...and we know that's what counts. If the plan is as great as you keep saying - it will stand on its own. There'll be no need to protect the govt from critiques of citizens.
                    A LOT of people think the 1st amendment is about "free speech". FRANKLY, I think the whole free speech thing was thrown in as a catch all. Read it some time though. The first part says RELIGION IS PROTECTED! The last part, and parts leading up to it, say that the publics right to OPENLY PETITION, PROTEST, and COMPLAIN about, the government for redress is to be PROTECTED!

                    So the constitution says that the government is NOT to be protected from the critiques of its citizens,

                    First Amendment | Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

                    Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    ...and we know that's what counts. If the plan is as great as you keep saying - it will stand on its own.


                    There'll be no need to protect the govt from critiques of citizens.

                    I have no problem with critiques of gov.

                    I just have a problem with critiques based on falsehoods, erroneous feelings and IMHO counterproductive, nitpicking meanderings not based on anything close to reality.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                How about you give 22 year olds a choice on weather they want to keep more of their income for themselves so they can decide if they want their future in their hands or a politicians. The younger generation is paying attention to the government
                Over here, it's exactly the opposite, Thom: electoral turnout among my age-group is at an all-time low, and diminishing further, election by election. My generation has never been less involved with "the process of government" than we are now.

                .
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Over here, it's exactly the opposite, Thom: electoral turnout among my age-group is at an all-time low, and diminishing further, election by election. My generation has never been less involved with "the process of government" than we are now.

                  .
                  Don't get me wrong Alexa, I'm not saying voter turnout is all that great here. With the strangle hold the two parties have here more people are abandoning the two parties and simply not voting when the choices are only between an R and a D.
                  In truth a minority now controls the government and the elections and they are fighting tooth and nail to keep that control.
                  It's a slow process, but more of the youth that are paying attention are getting involved, but for the most part they see the system as being corrupt and choose not to be a part of it. The numbers for the two parties continue to decline while the number of independent voters continues to rise.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    Don't get me wrong Alexa, I'm not saying voter turnout is all that great here. With the strangle hold the two parties have here more people are abandoning the two parties and simply not voting when the choices are only between an R and a D.
                    In truth a minority now controls the government and the elections and they are fighting tooth and nail to keep that control.
                    It's a slow process, but more of the youth that are paying attention are getting involved, but for the most part they see the system as being corrupt and choose not to be a part of it. The numbers for the two parties continue to decline while the number of independent voters continues to rise.
                    Well, as I tell a friend of mine, that votes as you say, you SHOULD vote for the lesser of two evils!

                    In truth, there are 1 or 2 parties I might like, and one is maybe the third largest party in the US, but it is still ******TINY****** compared to either of the other two. The REALLY insidious thing is people are afraid to throw away a vote to see if everyone would now vote for the other. If the third makes bigger gains in the smaller elections, and things are not as stark as they are NOW, I will consider voting in line with them, if they have the best candidate. Otherwise, it is just a WASTE!

                    HECK, I bet MOST americans don't know about any parties besides the top 2.

                    Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                      Well, as I tell a friend of mine, that votes as you say, you SHOULD vote for the lesser of two evils!

                      In truth, there are 1 or 2 parties I might like, and one is maybe the third largest party in the US, but it is still ******TINY****** compared to either of the other two. The REALLY insidious thing is people are afraid to throw away a vote to see if everyone would now vote for the other. If the third makes bigger gains in the smaller elections, and things are not as stark as they are NOW, I will consider voting in line with them, if they have the best candidate. Otherwise, it is just a WASTE!

                      HECK, I bet MOST americans don't know about any parties besides the top 2.

                      Steve
                      Voting for the best candidate is the point of voting.
                      The problem is the control the two parties have on the elections often prevent the best candidate from having a chance to be heard. Look at the presidential debates. They are controlled by representatives from the two parties. They set unreal qualifications to be included in the debates. The last time a 3rd party candidate met those requirements, they raised them to make it more difficult. Even on the state level for federal elections. If a third party candidate gets enough signatures to get on the ballot which ever major party stands to loose votes because of it will try to have the signatures made invalid. This puts the 3rd party candidate in a position where they have to prove each signature to be valid usually at a cost they can't afford.
                      Like the saying goes. The problem with political jokes is they continue to get elected.
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                • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Over here, it's exactly the opposite, Thom:
                  Similar situation down here. Less than half (39% to be precise) of Australians aged 18-29 believe that democracy is the best form of government.

                  www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2013/06/26/Gen-Y-and-democracy-whats-going-on.aspx
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Over here, it's exactly the opposite, Thom: electoral turnout among my age-group is at an all-time low, and diminishing further, election by election. My generation has never been less involved with "the process of government" than we are now.

                  .
                  In the US, getting young people to vote is a JOKE! One party has decided to go after them and, finding that they are SO disinterested in anything that is relevant, is going through MTV, etc... to "get out the vote".

                  Campaign Ads From These Groups Go Where Millennials Go

                  They will even drive you if you don't have a car, are blind, deaf, and have a 20IQ. If you can punch THEIR box on the ballot, that is ALL they care about!

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                    while some of you are arguing about the free medicare - I, as a Canadian with free medicare, am going to open your eyes about what happens in a country with free medicare.

                    Most importantly: You cannot have any say in your treatment - it's basically their way (mainstream medical) or the highway. Because the system is so often abused by new citizens, refugees, illegal immigrants, we have over-worked, highly stressed hospital staff, not enough doctors, and waiting times that are often life-threatening.

                    Example: a few years ago I had really bad sciatica pain. I have no doctor in this region - my doctor is in Toronto - so I went to a local free clinic. The doctor didn't even touch me or look at me. All he did was give me 2 prescriptions - and told me he could schedule an MRI but it would be about 30 days before I got in - however, if I wanted an MRI right away, I could drive down to Buffalo and pay $500 US and get one in 24 hours. I tore up the prescriptions, spent the next few days resting and alleviating stress and the pain went away on it's own, thankfully. But had it been more serious, I would have been in a bad way for goodness knows how long.

                    Socialism is not all it's cut out to be. Sure some things about it are great - but there is always a trade-off and one very important one is government that is too big and too bloated, and too much in our homes.

                    That said - with regards to Germany abolishing college tuition fees, this is something I do see as fantastic - why wouldn't we want our youth to all have a chance of a future? I have a son in college, so of course this would resonate with us. Though costs are not nearly as high as in the US, it still is tough for folks who aren't wealthy and just like in the US, many young men and women start off their life in debt because of tuition. That is just wrong, imho.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              As far as the word "free" is concerned, you can play semantics all day long if that's what pleases you.

              How about if the 22 years olds of America are given the choice of what we have now and choosing to have a bit more of their income set aside for major concerns as in Germany today?

              - I'll bet that 75% of them would opt for that German/European type of plan I mentioned earlier in this thread.

              - I'll also say I bet 75% of working Americans would opt for that type of plan - if the benefits are clearly explained. And those not paying federal taxes now would have to pay more than paying now as in something.

              As far as your thoughts of people paying for something they'll never use...

              - Everybody's going to retire one day or at least be of retirement age and no one I know wants to go into retirement age seriously struggling for the basic necessities.

              Another 1,2 or 3% taken from everyone's paycheck for Social security would make for a more generous payout upon retirement.

              There could be two or more levels of retirement benefits revolving around how much was contributed by the citizen during the course of their lifetime of work.

              - Everybody has brothers and sisters, cousins, friends etc. that will have a need for education of some sort.

              Another 1-2% from everybody paying taxes can help pay for no tuition higher education.

              - Everybody going to need medical care sooner or later and most people should understand the need to have health insurance for regular checkups/maintenance and to also insure their families against a catastrophic medical bill.

              Thankfully, we've already got the ACA but Medicare for all would be even better and cheaper for all.

              - Everyone may need unemployment protection sooner or later.

              Another 1-2% from the employee and the employer would make for more generous unemployment benefits.

              That just another 7-10% from everyone working to make for a better set of safety net programs.

              BTW...

              Everyone paying a mortgage has been and is being helped by taxpayers with the mortgage tax deduction.

              - Our tax base is so huge I bet we shouldn't have to tax at a 45-50% tax rate to fulfill all of the obligations in this type of more generous social contract. I bet we could get away with it being closer to 45% total taxes - federal and state combined.

              - Of course, all the extra gravy loopholes in the tax code should be closed and the top rates on the wealthy should be raised to also help pay for something like this.

              - I say raise the top tax rate to at least 50% and make sure its collected. That would help make up for all the lower income people who are now working but not paying federal income taxes - who now would be asked to pay a little bit more for the plan.

              IMHO, this nation has the resources to provide a much more generous safety net.

              We have the resources and IMHO, It's just a matter of a little bit more money coming from everyone working, the wealthy and smarter allocation of resources/programs to help make America a much more fun place to live and raise a family.
              Think what you want, but Germany has a BIG and DESERVED reputation for being careful and being frugal! I forget about WWI as to the positions. The 2nd period was an EXCEPTION and didn't really happen in GERMANY but happened on the same soil under the control of anyone BUT the Germans! THAT was a DISASTER! WWII was because of a bored IDIOT LUNATIC that was effectively created by WWII and the 2nd period! In fact, in WWI he was HOSPITALIZED! By the time he got out, the 2nd period was over and he soon worked on creating WWII. But after that, and prior to all that garbage, they have been frugal! Want an example and comparison? Look how the US and Germany treated the SAME countries with foreign aid, etc....

              How about the US get back *****ITS***** reputation, and TOE THE LINE before we reconsider giving the government ONE PENNY!?!?!?!?!?

              And I am SICK of paying for a NAME! People do NOT want "HEALTH CARE"! People do NOT want "HEALTH INSURANCE"!!!!!!!!!!! They want to be able to have their health cared for AND, if there is a problem, they want the insurance to be a worthwhile help in assisting.

              I don't care if they call it "MINNIE MOUSE" and "DAFFY DUCK"! What I care about is the ACTION! I am NOT alone here!

              And "EDUCATION" should be EDUCATION of the student in the discipline publicly specified! It is NOT to be a work program for a person calling themselves a "teacher", and it is NOT to be a indoctrination program or some pedestal for a captive audience!

              And WELFARE should be for THOSE IN NEED!

              Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              ...
              That just another 7-10% from everyone working to make for a better set of safety net programs.
              A large percentage of your neighbors have a rough time making ends meet now. And you want another 10% of what isn't enough? Unbelievable.

              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              BTW...

              Everyone paying a mortgage has been and is being helped by taxpayers with the mortgage tax deduction....
              LOL - only from the mind of a hardcore lib. How about we look at it this way: everyone who is not a mortgage payer is punished by having a higher percentage of their income confiscated by the government.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                A large percentage of your neighbors have a rough time making ends meet now. And you want another 10% of what isn't enough? Unbelievable.



                LOL - only from the mind of a hardcore lib.

                How about we look at it this way: everyone who is not a mortgage payer is punished by having a higher percentage of their income confiscated by the government.

                Since you ardently support someone like the deadbeat rancher who also doesn't even believe in the entity U.S.A., one Cliven Bundy, ...

                ... I'm not sure what to call you.

                - Why couldn't the increases I mentioned be phased in over a 10 year period and ultimately the social programs would be a lot more generous and helpful. That's all I'm talking about.

                - Don't forget, I also would like to see the top tax rates raised to help pay for the upgrade in the safety net.

                BTW as far as the mortgage tax deduction is concerned...

                - I see nothing wrong with all of us taxpayers helping each other obtain a home since it is one of the pillars of obtaining prosperity.

                I have no problem with all of us ganging up to help each other to easier deal with life's major financial concerns such as...

                - Retirement

                - Property acquisition

                - Education

                - Health Care

                - Unemployment Insurance

                And help make life easier for all of us and our posterity.

                - The way I see it, mortgage folks are rewarded for trying to "improve the land" so to speak and it also improves the financial prospects/value of the family/person and of the community.

                BTW, owning a piece of property that is actually paid for, provides a much more solid financial situation for most people so IMHO it should be encouraged anyway we can - so why not use the tax code?

                FYI...

                - I don't see anyone being punished for not owning a home just because people are being rewarded by all of us for trying to prosper.

                You've said before that you wouldn't have been against the post WW2 G.I. bill, but your interesting logic and opposition to the mortgage tax deduction makes me think otherwise.

                Your brand of freedom like your support of Mr. Bundy is a strange one as far as I'm concerned and once again I'll say...



                ... If one of your goals is to help Americans prosper, then your national economic plan/group of positions have absolutely no chance of achieving that goal - as a matter of fact the opposite would occur.

                Guess what?

                I believe in the rugged individual just as much as you do, but I also recognize the practical need for folks to team up to combat life's major financial hurdles as I mentioned before.

                In your mind I'm guessing that equates to some sort of bunch of wussies and a super nanny state but in my mind it is simply savvy citizenship.

                But, you carry on, supporter of Cliven Bundy, the deadbeat rancher who also does not believe in the entity of the U.S.A.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  Since you ardently support someone like the deadbeat rancher who also doesn't even believe in the entity U.S.A., one Cliven Bundy, ...

                  ... I'm not sure what to call you.

                  - Why couldn't the increases I mentioned be phased in over a 10 year period and ultimately the social programs would be a lot more generous and helpful. That's all I'm talking about.

                  - Don't forget, I also would like to see the top tax rates raised to help pay for the upgrade in the safety net.
                  And yet *****YOU****** don't want to pay! INTERESTING!

                  BTW as far as the mortgage tax deduction is concerned...

                  - I see nothing wrong with all of us taxpayers helping each other obtain a home since it is one of the pillars of obtaining prosperity.
                  WOW, he says this AFTER 2008!

                  I have no problem with all of us ganging up to help each other to easier deal with life's major financial concerns such as...

                  - Retirement
                  Then *********ALLOW PEOPLE TO SAVE*********!

                  - Property acquisition
                  By STEALING FROM THEM!?!?!?!? How does THAT suddenly work when it NEVER has before! And YES, even the BIBLE talks about taxes, etc....

                  - Education
                  Education does NOT include propaganda and means EDUCATION, NOT a work program!

                  - Health Care
                  Then STOP CREATING INFLATION!

                  - Unemployment Insurance
                  HISTORICALLY, the BEST insurance has been SAVINGS!

                  And help make life easier for all of us and our posterity.
                  BY PUTTING EVERYONE IN DEBT!?!?!?!?!?!?

                  - The way I see it, mortgage folks are rewarded for trying to "improve the land" so to speak and it also improves the financial prospects/value of the family/person and of the community.
                  OK, then WHY tax the money they pay to the government, etc.... ALSO, the constitution says that is ILLEGAL in that there should NOT be EXPOST FACTO laws! A person obligates themselves to ONE set of rules, for as long as THIRTY YEARS, and you want to CHANGE THE RULES?

                  BTW, owning a piece of property that is actually paid for, provides a much more solid financial situation for most people so IMHO it should be encouraged anyway we can - so why not use the tax code?
                  THEY DID! It is called a MORTGAGE DEDUCTION! Ever since the mid 1980s, they have been removing deductions on interest. They probably stopped on homes ONLY because it is so unfair, etc....

                  - I don't see anyone being punished for not owning a home just because people are being rewarded by all of us for trying to prosper.
                  So why punish those that try to buy a home?


                  And you say all this about not believing in the entity of the U.S.A. The USA is practically on life support. It was to be a democratic republic, following a constitution, with politicians even taking oaths to office, and the government being subservient to the people. Today, it is NONE of that! It is the OPPOSITE!

                  And you might CLAIM "Well Obama took an OAAAAATH!!!!!!!(said in a whiny childs voice)" WRONG! He NEVER DID! HERE is how WIKIPEDIA defines oath:

                  Oath

                  Traditionally an oath is either a statement of fact or a promise with wording relating to something considered sacred as a sign of verity.
                  OK, NOW I will translate it to the language used by the likes of Obama:

                  An oath is a string of words, commonly also referred to as a sentence.
                  In case you don't recognize it. the two are TOTALLY different! Obama doesn't know what statement, promise, sacred, or verity mean. And until you know what they mean, at least as concepts, you can NOT take an oath!

                  One part of it is "Protect the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic". That has been broken at EVERY LEVEL! People in congress, the supreme court AND the executive branch have OPENLY stated or indicated that they want to DESTROY the constitution, and want to give ALL enemies PREFERENCE! AND, ironically, in doing so, THEY become a domestic enemy! So their "oath" then says they will QUIT! But they never TOOK an oath! They simply said a string of words!

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    And yet *****YOU****** don't want to pay! INTERESTING!



                    WOW, he says this AFTER 2008!



                    Then *********ALLOW PEOPLE TO SAVE*********!



                    By STEALING FROM THEM!?!?!?!? How does THAT suddenly work when it NEVER has before! And YES, even the BIBLE talks about taxes, etc....



                    Education does NOT include propaganda and means EDUCATION, NOT a work program!



                    Then STOP CREATING INFLATION!



                    HISTORICALLY, the BEST insurance has been SAVINGS!



                    BY PUTTING EVERYONE IN DEBT!?!?!?!?!?!?



                    OK, then WHY tax the money they pay to the government, etc.... ALSO, the constitution says that is ILLEGAL in that there should NOT be EXPOST FACTO laws! A person obligates themselves to ONE set of rules, for as long as THIRTY YEARS, and you want to CHANGE THE RULES?



                    THEY DID! It is called a MORTGAGE DEDUCTION! Ever since the mid 1980s, they have been removing deductions on interest. They probably stopped on homes ONLY because it is so unfair, etc....



                    So why punish those that try to buy a home?


                    And you say all this about not believing in the entity of the U.S.A. The USA is practically on life support. It was to be a democratic republic, following a constitution, with politicians even taking oaths to office, and the government being subservient to the people. Today, it is NONE of that! It is the OPPOSITE!

                    And you might CLAIM "Well Obama took an OAAAAATH!!!!!!!(said in a whiny childs voice)" WRONG! He NEVER DID! HERE is how WIKIPEDIA defines oath:



                    OK, NOW I will translate it to the language used by the likes of Obama:



                    In case you don't recognize it. the two are TOTALLY different! Obama doesn't know what statement, promise, sacred, or verity mean. And until you know what they mean, at least as concepts, you can NOT take an oath!

                    One part of it is "Protect the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic". That has been broken at EVERY LEVEL! People in congress, the supreme court AND the executive branch have OPENLY stated or indicated that they want to DESTROY the constitution, and want to give ALL enemies PREFERENCE! AND, ironically, in doing so, THEY become a domestic enemy! So their "oath" then says they will QUIT! But they never TOOK an oath! They simply said a string of words!

                    Steve
                    Sir you are entitled and why are you trying to get this thread shutdown by mentioning politicos?
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Since you ardently support someone like the deadbeat rancher who also doesn't even believe in the entity U.S.A., one Cliven Bundy, ...

                  ... I'm not sure what to call you.
                  Don't you feel just a little silly writing that? An old story where someone didn't agree with you and you carry that anger around? And put it in bold - it comes across as petty and pissy.

                  You don't need to "call" anyone anything. People won't always agree with you - that's just how it is. You have a view of everyone "pitching in" to help everyone else...but we already have 50% of the people who don't pitch in at all.

                  The mortgage interest credit made it worthwhile to buy a house - otherwise owning would cost much more than renting and the goal a few years ago was to encourage home ownership.

                  There used to be similar tax "breaks" on interest on other loans and on credit card interest paid, too. Those "breaks" for people who PAID were eliminated and replaced with tax breaks like EIC and child care deductions that benefit those who don't pay taxes.

                  I believe in the rugged individual just as much as you do
                  I don't believe that. The rugged individual takes care of himself and his own - he does what's necessary to survive and prosper and does it in his own way. He doesn't have his hand out and doesn't take it well when others put their hand in his pocket.

                  The WSJ reported that adding 6-7 million health care subsidies and 3 million to Medicaid last year reslted in more than 50% of the US population receiving some form of govt subsidy. They described it as "passing the tipping point".

                  For some, the earners in this country can never give enough. In 1983, 30% of households in the US received some form of govt benefit. In 2011, that number was 49.2% - in 2014 it exceeded 50%.

                  And, always, you want more.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


                    The WSJ reported that adding 6-7 million health care subsidies and 3 million to Medicaid last year reslted in more than 50% of the US population receiving some form of govt subsidy. They described it as "passing the tipping point".
                    I'm pretty sure the WSJ was including SS and Medicare. Those aren't subsidies. Btw, in many countries the number is already at 100% if you include their health care systems.

                    People who don't pay federal income taxes should not be deciding how much in taxes other people pay - in my opinion.
                    Are you saying the poor and lower middle class shouldn't be able to vote?

                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    BTW Karen, my UNCLE, in Denmark, ALSO gets free healthcare.
                    Another person who doesn't understand what the word free means. lol
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      including SS and Medicare
                      NO, not in that case. This was strictly from Obamacare signups and those are not retirees. However, it is true that it included many people who previously had insurance and were replacing it.

                      Are you saying the poor and lower middle class shouldn't be able to vote?
                      It did sound that way and it wasn't what I meant. It's simple - the 30% went to 50% - if that goes to 70% the rest of the people in this country won't have enough money to support govt benefits even if they pay 100% taxation. Those who receive benefits don't care if others have to pay more if the promise is that they will get more. That's why a tipping point matters.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                        NO, not in that case. This was strictly from Obamacare signups and those are not retirees. However, it is true that it included many people who previously had insurance and were replacing it.

                        50% of the population signed up for Obamacare? I was referring to the total amount. I found one WSJ article about this and they did include SS and Medicare.

                        It's simple - the 30% went to 50% - if that goes to 70% the rest of the people in this country won't have enough money to support govt benefits even if they pay 100% taxation.
                        That's not really true. Like I said, in many countries the number would be 100% now. The % receiving benefits ( many of whom have paid into a particular system over a lifetime to receive that benefit), isn't what really matters. That's a red herring imo.
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      Are you saying the poor and lower middle class shouldn't be able to vote?
                      The lower middle class DO pay taxes! HECK, some of the POOR do ALSO!

                      Another person who doesn't understand what the word free means. lol
                      OK, I sometimes use the same wording in a response. I also sometimes just feel it is better "understood". But they DO have a socialized system like YOU want! All I said was TRUE! And I doubt anyone here thinks I would, or COULD, play the part of one so affected, so long, complete with a long hiatus. YEP, I am PRECISELY the kind of guy that many of obama's claims about the ACA are supposed to cover. MAN I am glad I didn't get the problem NOW. That is ANOTHER thing! Many people didn't even know who obama was in 2005, bush was president, and nobody thought obama would be president. So you can't say I planned it.

                      My uncle had plaque, etc... a few years earlier, and had to have stents, and my father, a couple years earlier, had stenosis and/or plaque in some important arteries, and had to have a bypass. Just my luck, huh? My mother's brother, AND my father, had heart vessel narrowing, and my aorta nearly blew.

                      My father was happy before. I was happy before. My uncle was disappointed. And my UNCLE was the one with the socialized care!

                      Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Don't you feel just a little silly writing that? An old story where someone didn't agree with you and you carry that anger around? And put it in bold - it comes across as petty and pissy.

                    You don't need to "call" anyone anything. People won't always agree with you - that's just how it is. You have a view of everyone "pitching in" to help everyone else...but we already have 50% of the people who don't pitch in at all.

                    The mortgage interest credit made it worthwhile to buy a house - otherwise owning would cost much more than renting and the goal a few years ago was to encourage home ownership.

                    There used to be similar tax "breaks" on interest on other loans and on credit card interest paid, too. Those "breaks" for people who PAID were eliminated and replaced with tax breaks like EIC and child care deductions that benefit those who don't pay taxes.

                    I don't believe that. The rugged individual takes care of himself and his own - he does what's necessary to survive and prosper and does it in his own way. He doesn't have his hand out and doesn't take it well when others put their hand in his pocket.

                    The WSJ reported that adding 6-7 million health care subsidies and 3 million to Medicaid last year reslted in more than 50% of the US population receiving some form of govt subsidy. They described it as "passing the tipping point".

                    For some, the earners in this country can never give enough. In 1983, 30% of households in the US received some form of govt benefit. In 2011, that number was 49.2% - in 2014 it exceeded 50%.

                    And, always, you want more.
                    Steve called me a lib and I responded with me saying I have no idea what to call him since he supports Mr. Bundy's non recognition of these United States.


                    The inability to condemn Mr. Bundy, not for his avoidance of paying those grazing fees...

                    ... but for his non recognition of these United states speaks volumes about what type of patriots some folks are.

                    And once again, it may not be a big deal for you and your crowd but IMHO, its a very strange type of patriotism as far as I'm concerned.

                    I put stuff in bold because I want to make sure folks reading the post - actually see it.

                    Like this below...

                    You can also save your proselytizing about how people should act for someone who doesn't know you were intimately with the crowd that...

                    ... not only supported George Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin, your crap was extra when you piled on with gusto with those who chose to trash someone who was simply going to the store for a snack and ended up dead at the hands of someone who wasn't even a cop.

                    I want people to know what Saint Kay has been up to. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

                    Who's angry?

                    - In another recent thread about domestic violence I was talking to another black person about black women and you jumped in accusing me of playing the race card when the conversation had nothing to do with race.

                    You were as wrong as anyone could be wrong.

                    After I explained the situation to you - did I receive an apology from you?

                    Not a peep.

                    As far as I'm concerned your actions showed a clear lack of class. But I already knew that from you tipping your hand during the Trayvon Martin situation.


                    You also said...

                    The mortgage interest credit made it worthwhile to buy a house - otherwise owning would cost much more than renting and the goal a few years ago was to encourage home ownership.

                    Then you said this...

                    I don't believe that. ( that TL believes in the rugged individual as much as Steve J. Does)


                    You went on to say...

                    The rugged individual takes care of himself and his own - he does what's necessary to survive and prosper and does it in his own way.

                    He doesn't have his hand out and doesn't take it well when others put their hand in his pocket.


                    I say...

                    So you say it's OK for folks to band together via the tax code via the mortgage tax deduction to help people purchase a home but folks should not band together for anything else?


                    By you own logic, folks who take advantage of the mortgage tax deduction are not stand up people who can stand on their own.


                    - What else would you expect the WSJ to say since its the paper of record for the large corps and the wealthy?

                    As usual you're confusing issues - I'll gander from a lack of understanding.

                    The amount of people receiving some sort of gov aid has nothing to do with what I was talking about...

                    ... which was working people, the wealthy and businesses, ponying up a little bit more cash to help make the safety net and gov programs much more robust.

                    In this recent thread ... (an example of your confusion)

                    http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...n-economy.html post #28

                    ...when we were talking about the ACA I asked Thom to give me a link at the CBO related to his quote regarding the ACA...

                    You jumped (actually saying "here it is")...

                    ... in with a link at the CBO about the national debt situation - totally unrelated.

                    It's always apples to oranges with you - time and time again confusing and mixing unrelated issues in your unbridled lust to contradict me.


                    And finally, ...


                    ...since Mr. Seasoned has a habit of nonsensically ranting on almost everything I post, the fact that he's on your side of most every economic issue as far as I'm concerned, ...

                    ...that in and off itself should be an indicator that you're on the wrong side.


                    And BTW, please save your canned speech about you not being on anyone's side etc.


                    But as I also told your partner Steve J., you go right ahead and carry on.






                    NOTE: For the record:


                    The mod(s) will not allow me to respond to Steve J's post #65 in this thread below.



                    I responded and it was deleted.


                    I then posted that my response was deleted and that was also deleted.
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                    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      Steve called me a lib and I responded with me saying I have no idea what to call him since he supports Mr. Bundy's non recognition of these United States.


                      The inability to condemn Mr. Bundy, not for his avoidance of paying those grazing fees...

                      ... but for his non recognition of these United states speaks volumes about what type of patriots some folks are.

                      And once again, it may not be a big deal for you and your crowd but IMHO, its a very strange type of patriotism as far as I'm concerned.
                      I really try hard not to condemn people, especially for one stupid statement. That you would speaks volumes about the type of person you are. I thought libs preach tolerance?

                      Besides, you do the same, and don't bother with denials. If you didn't, you'd be condemning the current president from dawn till dusk for the stupid stuff he's said and done.

                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      I put stuff in bold because I want to make sure folks reading the post - actually see it.

                      Like this below...

                      You can also save your proselytizing about how people should act for someone who doesn't know you were intimately with the crowd that...

                      ... not only supported George Zimmerman's killing of Trayvon Martin, your crap was extra when you piled on with gusto with those who chose to trash someone who was simply going to the store for a snack and ended up dead at the hands of someone who wasn't even a cop.
                      He ended up dead because he was on top of someone pummeling the shit out of him. No other reason.
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      I want people to know what Saint Kay has been up to. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
                      You should really try to quit being such a dick.

                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post



                      [yada yada blah blah yada]

                      He doesn't have his hand out and doesn't take it well when others put their hand in his pocket.


                      I say...

                      So you say it's OK for folks to band together via the tax code via the mortgage tax deduction to help people purchase a home but folks should not band together for anything else?


                      By you own logic, folks who take advantage of the mortgage tax deduction are not stand up people who can stand on their own.
                      I'll say it again - only in the mind of a liberal does NOT having to pay something become a subsidy. Logic doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      - What else would you expect the WSJ to say since its the paper of record for the large corps and the wealthy?
                      You forgot to mention that Rupert Muchoch owns it. The HORROR!!

                      As I said earlier, I try not to condemn people. Stupid statements don't necessarily make a person bad. Take yourself, for instance. I think, at your heart, you're probably a good guy. But I find your approval of using government force to confiscate another person's property to further your and your kinds' vision to be utterly contemptible. And I, for one, will do everything in my power to see that this is as far as it goes, and support every effort to roll back what has been done.

                      And I really think your animosity toward Zimmerman is racial in origin. If it had been a mexican hoodie sitting astride of and pummeling on a black neighbor, you'd be singing a completely different tune. *I* wouldn't be. Same as I wouldn't be if Martin had been a white gangsta wannabe or if Zimmerman had been black. Can you say the same?
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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  Since you ardently support someone like the deadbeat rancher who also doesn't even believe in the entity U.S.A., one Cliven Bundy, ...

                  ... I'm not sure what to call you.
                  Just call me Steve, that works.

                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  - Why couldn't the increases I mentioned be phased in over a 10 year period and ultimately the social programs would be a lot more generous and helpful. That's all I'm talking about.

                  [snipsnip]
                  I would say that you just don't get it, but I'm sure you do and it doesn't bother you. You want to take something good - a community rallying around its members - and turn it into a confiscatory, mandatory-involvement government function just because you think it's great and therefore everyone should be forced to contribute.

                  It's funny, but the more I see government-forced 'community services', the less I see of community involvement. When is the last time you saw a community rebuild a burned-down house for someone who couldn't afford to rebuild? Or raise a barn for a neighbor?

                  Progressives and their empty promises of a 'better tomorrow for everyone' - and the resulting confiscation of private wealth to pay for it - have created a huge segment of the population dependent on government, not contributing, and have left the rest of us holding the bag. They have taken away consequences for bad judgement, poor work ethic, and irresponsibility and have instead rewarded those same behaviors. The progressive movement's policies are behind the decline of a prosperous America.

                  You want to pay more taxes? Fine, just write the IRS a check. Nothing's stopping you. Get all your progressive buddies to do the same.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              As far as the word "free" is concerned, you can play semantics all day long if that's what pleases you.

              How about if the 22 years olds of America are given the choice of what we have now and choosing to have a bit more of their income set aside for major concerns as in Germany today?

              - I'll bet that 75% of them would opt for that German/European type of plan I mentioned earlier in this thread.

              - I'll also say I bet 75% of working Americans would opt for that type of plan - if the benefits are clearly explained. And those not paying federal taxes now would have to pay more than paying now as in something.

              As far as your thoughts of people paying for something they'll never use...

              - Everybody's going to retire one day or at least be of retirement age and no one I know wants to go into retirement age seriously struggling for the basic necessities.

              Another 1,2 or 3% taken from everyone's paycheck for Social security would make for a more generous payout upon retirement.

              There could be two or more levels of retirement benefits revolving around how much was contributed by the citizen during the course of their lifetime of work.

              - Everybody has brothers and sisters, cousins, friends etc. that will have a need for education of some sort.

              Another 1-2% from everybody paying taxes can help pay for no tuition higher education.

              - Everybody going to need medical care sooner or later and most people should understand the need to have health insurance for regular checkups/maintenance and to also insure their families against a catastrophic medical bill.

              Thankfully, we've already got the ACA but Medicare for all would be even better and cheaper for all.

              - Everyone may need unemployment protection sooner or later.

              Another 1-2% from the employee and the employer would make for more generous unemployment benefits.

              That just another 7-10% from everyone working to make for a better set of safety net programs.

              BTW...

              Everyone paying a mortgage has been and is being helped by taxpayers with the mortgage tax deduction.

              - Our tax base is so huge I bet we shouldn't have to tax at a 45-50% tax rate to fulfill all of the obligations in this type of more generous social contract. I bet we could get away with it being closer to 45% total taxes - federal and state combined.

              - Of course, all the extra gravy loopholes in the tax code should be closed and the top rates on the wealthy should be raised to also help pay for something like this.

              - I say raise the top tax rate to at least 50% and make sure its collected. That would help make up for all the lower income people who are now working but not paying federal income taxes - who now would be asked to pay a little bit more for the plan.

              IMHO, this nation has the resources to provide a much more generous safety net.

              We have the resources and IMHO, It's just a matter of a little bit more money coming from everyone working, the wealthy and smarter allocation of resources/programs to help make America a much more fun place to live and raise a family.
              Give me a break! You think that "people have been helped by a mortgage deduction". NEWS FLASH TL!!!!!!!!!!! The tax deduction is a NET GAIN for the GOVERNMENT! The average home costs TWO to FOUR *******TIMES******* its "selling" price! If you don't understand that, it is hard to believe you even have ONE house!

              The primary beneficiary of the 100-300% markup is the banking industry and the GOVERNMENT! FAR FEWER people would want to, or be willing to, buy a home WITHOUT the deduction! And what about the precious people YOU want to see as home. BTW SHOCKER!!!!!!!!!!! The deduction is NOT on the home! It isn't even really on the mortgage! It is on the MONEY PAID TO THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!

              OH YEAH, my calculation of 200%-400% is a little old! I determined it BEFORE I bought a home! Since I bought my home during a 200% period, I paid ANOTHER 72% for my home! So I paid 272% for the home! I may have missed ANOTHER cost, but anything I missed went to the government in SOME way. And the multiplier for the cost USUALLY goes UP as the economy gets WORSE! During the 70s and 80s, it was about 400%. WHY do you think a home takes SO long to pay off? MOST of the time is spent paying TAXES AND INTEREST! And much of the interest goes to the government with the remainder going to the banks.

              HEY, HERE'S a thought! You say you make ********SOOOOOOOOOO********* much and are doing SOOOOOOOOO well, which contradicts MUCH of what you posted HERE BTW! Why don't YOU just write a letter to the IRS saying "Thanks for all you do, enjoy this check for an extra $5,000,000 and please audit me if I don't pay at least 90% of what you are told I make!"?

              And if you think your ideas are unique or novel, THEY AREN'T! Even the BIBLE discusses similar ideas!

              Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        ...

        IMHO, I think most Americans - like 75% of us, would gladly trade 45-50% of their income for...
        I think that's a rose-colored glasses view, but in case it isn't, that's one reason why we don't have a 'majority rules' political system.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          I think that's a rose-colored glasses view, but in case it isn't, that's one reason why we don't have a 'majority rules' political system.

          You mean you don't agree with my numbers.

          What do you think the numbers would be?

          We don't need a majority rules type of system.

          The one we have is fine.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            From an article on Forbes....

            about 43 percent of all households will pay no federal income tax this year (2013)
            You said:

            I think most Americans - like 75% of us,
            People who don't pay federal income taxes should not be deciding how much in taxes other people pay - in my opinion. So your statement perhaps should be "like 75% of the 57% who pay federal income taxes"...
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    "Higher education is now free throughout the country, even for international students."
    My first thought was, if my son learned German, it could save me a lot of money in tuition fees if I was the one who had to foot the bills.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW Education CAN be 100% AUTOMATED! The technology has existed for over 40 years!!!!!!!!!! It has been raised to practically SCIFI levels in the past 20 years!

    Normal SCIFI? They have 3d holograms reacting to kids, IN A GROUP, and maybe have course materials and responses on computer. ********NOTHING ELSE IS DIFFERENT*********!

    CURRENT REALITY? They have pictures, and maybe a real teacher helping you INDIVIDUALLY, and have EVERYTHING on computer. ******POTENTIALLY JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT******!

    BTW Some sites DO do a LOT for FREE!

    Sadly, a LOT of healthcare could be virtually automated, but they don't want to do that. TECHNICALLY, it is ILLEGAL in the US. It IS a shame, because you may know FULLY what is wrong with you, but you STILL have to see a doctor so he or she can second guess, and they may have to write a prescription for you.

    BTW Karen, my UNCLE, in Denmark, ALSO gets free healthcare. He had a heart problem, and the visit was DELAYED because of the system! THEN, they had to determine if they would help him, after finding out what they had to do. They actually waited for the call! The odds were NOT good that they would say yes. I forget whether it was weeks, or MONTHS. And this was for a couple STENTS! What Is a Stent? - NHLBI, NIH They FINALLY said yes, and he got treatment. In comparison, my father, in the US, had an episode, and was treated SAME DAY! It was a FAR more complex operation than my uncles! I had an even BIGGER problem. They practically had to rip me apart! They ALSO brought me to essentially a clinically DEAD level, and had me on ice while they operated for 13 hours! AGAIN, SAME DAY!

    But SO FEW in the US dare to recognize what we had.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ronrule
    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

    Terrible idea.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Tim - We may be talking different statistics. The 50% does include medicare and SS - but the WSJ article was saying the subsidies increased the percentage of people "receiving from the govt".

      It's only a number - but 30% to 50% is a big jump. We know much is from an aging population - but not all. The number of people on SNAP has declined a little and that's good except the number of those on disability has gone up.

      We can say it doesn't matter - might as well say that as we can't seem to do anything about it. Debt will hit $18 trillion soon and many say that doesn't matter. At some point it will matter and my fear is we'll ignore our fiscal irresponsibility until it's too late to fix it. Maybe it's too late now so why worry about it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I want people to know what Saint Kay has been up to.
        I'm tired of your crap and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I'm tired of your crap and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.
          Do you run to the mods also? And I think I can guess who most of them are.



          You and the rest of them are just angry because someone's ruining your little all to often factually challenged, on the wrong side of American history party at the WF.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            Do you run to the mods also? And I think I can guess who most of them are.



            You and the rest of them are just angry because someone's ruining your little all to often factually challenged, on the wrong side of American history party at the WF.
            I'm still waiting for you to show the thank you letter from the IRS for the HUGE donation! You say *****WE***** should pay because, ACCORDING TO YOU, we can EASILY PAY! You ALSO say you can EASILY PAY, ETC.... SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ********WHY DON'T YOU*********!?!?!?!?

            Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I'm tired of your crap and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.
          That's why he's one of only 2 people I ever put on my ignore list. Worked wonders for my enjoyment level on the forum...
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I'm tired of your crap and I doubt I'm the only one here who feels that way.
          Actually Kay he reminds me of the old grade school bully.
          For example.
          Do you run to the mods also and I think I can guess who most of them are.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Mike - I forgot we could do that. Looks better already!
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Mike - I forgot we could do that. Looks better already!
              After this mornings rant I decided the same
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Tim - We may be talking different statistics. The 50% does include medicare and SS - but the WSJ article was saying the subsidies increased the percentage of people "receiving from the govt".

        It's only a number - but 30% to 50% is a big jump. We know much is from an aging population - but not all. The number of people on SNAP has declined a little and that's good except the number of those on disability has gone up.

        We can say it doesn't matter - might as well say that as we can't seem to do anything about it. Debt will hit $18 trillion soon and many say that doesn't matter. At some point it will matter and my fear is we'll ignore our fiscal irresponsibility until it's too late to fix it. Maybe it's too late now so why worry about it?
        I'm concerned about our debt also, but still think the 50% figure is a political red herring. Here's a list of countries that have 100% of it's citizens receiving benefits of some sort from the government but are among the leading countries for lowest debt ratio ( below 40% ): Rwanda ( debt ratio 23.5% ), Algeria ( 13.2% ), Libya ( 4.8% ), Bhutan ( 38.9% ), China ( 22.4% ), Hong Kong ( 35.6% ), Iran ( 18.7% ), Kazakhstan ( 15.6% ), Kuwait ( 6.4% ), Oman ( 4.4% ), Qatar ( 30.6% ), Saudi Arabia ( 12.2% ), South Korea ( 35.8% ), Taiwan ( 38.9% ), Tajikistan ( 6.5% ), Turkey ( 36.6% ), Belarus ( 31.5% ), Bulgaria ( 18.4% ), Estonia ( 6% ), Georgia ( 36.3 ), Latvia ( 39.2 ), Luxembourg ( 22.9% ), Moldova ( 16.6% ), Norway ( 30.1% ), Romania ( 38.6% ), Russia ( 7.9% ), San Marino ( 25.8% ), Switzerland ( 33.8% ), Cuba ( 35.9% ), Mexico ( 37.7% ), Panama ( 39.8% ), Trinidad and Tobago ( 37.1% ), Chile ( 13.9% ), Colombia ( 39.6% ), Peru ( 14.9% ), Venezuela ( 34.2% ), Australia ( 32.6% ) and New Zealand ( 38.4% ).

        Plus, there dozens of other countries which have 100% of their citizens receiving federal benefits that have more than 40% debt but less than what the US has, which is at a 71.8% ratio currently. ( The US has at least 35 other countries that have a higher debt ratio. )

        So, that's why the 50% figure is a red herring used for political purposes. It doesn't mean a thing in regards to fiscal strength.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Since you don't give a link to that "benefits" info - why do I think there's more to it? In many of the countries you list the "benefit" comes from gas and oil royalties. They don't have anything to do with our situation here.

          I can't change the number so might as well go along with your opinion that 50% of the population on benefits is not important. In my version of real life, if my debt continues to rise I'm living above my means.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            All those countries have universal healthcare. There are dozens of others who in their version of real life also have universal healthcare and have a lower debt to GDP ratio than us. Sure, some have big oil reserves. We do also btw. You can find a list of countries on Wikipedia.

            Yes, I think the 50% is meaningless. Especially since they are counting ss and medicare, two programs people contribute to most of their lives. The important number IMO is the debt to GDP number which I would like to see much lower.
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  • Profile picture of the author rrram2
    If the Goobermint had any real brains they would come up with a creative way to make going to college in the USA free to any student who desired to do so. We (as a nation) are becoming dumber and dumber every year as compared to way too many countries.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by rrram2 View Post

      If the Goobermint had any real brains they would come up with a creative way to make going to college in the USA free to any student who desired to do so. We (as a nation) are becoming dumber and dumber every year as compared to way too many countries.
      They could EASILY provide free education. They just don't want to. There is a "the fed" of the "education industry", called the NEA. The "the fed" is an "authorized" counterfeiter and THIEF, that supports the banks and helps to cloud the facts about the ECONOMY. They CLAIM to be merely a standards organization and have assets to back money. The NEA is a UNION in job to raise "teachers" pay, and make their "jobs" more secure, and help their life. They CLAIM to be merely a standards organization that educates.
      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW I predicted it,and have said it is happening. Some didn't believeme, but.....

    More of Wal-Mart's Part-Time Workers Lose Their Health Benefits - Businessweek

    #1 private employer in the country, and perhaps the world, and check out *****WHY***** they are doing this NOW!

    OH, this hits on SOOOOO many levels, and it is only ONE paragraph!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!

    The announcement comes during a time of financial stress for the company. In August, Wal-Mart reported its sixth-straight quarter without sales growth at stores open at least a year and reduced its profit estimates for the year. It cited investments in its e-commerce business as one reason. Increasing health-care costs were the other.
    Steve
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