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California economy to pass Brazil this year as world's 7th largest economy.

by TimPhelan
13 replies
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We passed Russia and Italy last year and may pass the UK next year! Oh, and we have a surplus now of several billion.

California is overtaking Brazil as the world’s seventh-largest economy, bolstered by rising employment, home values and personal and corporate income, a year after the most-populous state surpassed Russia and Italy.
The Golden State, with an equivalent gross domestic product of $2.20 trillion in 2013, expanded last year by almost every measure, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Brazil’s gross domestic product, in contrast, declined 1 percent from $2.25 trillion in the first three quarters of 2014 as its export of raw materials fell...

Temporary sales and income tax increases that he championed in 2012, combined with surging capital gains revenue tied to stock market gains, have left the state with a $5 billion surplus in the fiscal year that begins in July. The governor is seeking to store much of that surplus in reserves to cushion against economic downturns.
California poised to pass Brazil
  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Jerry Brown has totally turned around CA. He really deserves a lot of credit and should be seriously considered as a nomination for his party's presidential campaign, but we know he won't be. He's "too old" and it isn't his turn.


    You guys just need to figure out what to do about the severe drought. It'll really impact your economy soon, if it hasn't already. I'd be tempted to use the $5 billion surplus on desalination plants. Water is even more important than money in the bank.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Jerry Brown has totally turned around CA. He really deserves a lot of credit and should be seriously considered as a nomination for his party's presidential campaign, but we know he won't be. He's "too old" and it isn't his turn.
      Agree completely. He would do a great job, but...


      You guys just need to figure out what to do about the severe drought. It'll really impact your economy soon, if it hasn't already. I'd be tempted to use the $5 billion surplus on desalination plants. Water is even more important than money in the bank.
      I mentioned this in another thread, Kurt:

      "The crews are building what boosters say represents California's best hope for a drought-proof water supply: the largest ocean desalination plant in the Western Hemisphere. The $1 billion project will provide 50 million gallons of drinking water a day for San Diego County when it opens in 2016.


      Since the 1970s, California has dipped its toe into ocean desalination --talking, planning, debating. But for a variety of reasons -- mainly cost and environmental concerns-- the state has never taken the plunge.

      Until now.

      Fifteen desalination projects are proposed along the coast from Los Angeles to San Francisco Bay. Desalination technology is becoming more efficient."

      Nation's largest ocean desalination plant goes up near San Diego; Future of the California coast? - San Jose Mercury News
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Places like Las Vegas and Tucson should also pitch in for the costs of building de-sals for CA so they can keep more water upstream.


    Las Vegas is building more water tunnels for Lake Meade at a cost of something like $6-7 billion (?) because the water level has dropped so much the old tunnels aren't deep enough to get the water. Las Vegas should help pay for de-sals for CA so LV can keep more water upstream. I heard LV is thinking of doing something similar with Mexico.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Maybe stop diverting billions of gallons of water from agriculture?
      The state's water emergency is unfolding thanks to the latest mishandling of the Endangered Species Act. Last December, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued what is known as a "biological opinion" imposing water reductions on the San Joaquin Valley and environs to safeguard the federally protected hypomesus transpacificus, a.k.a., the delta smelt. As a result, tens of billions of gallons of water from mountains east and north of Sacramento have been channelled away from farmers and into the ocean, leaving hundreds of thousands of acres of arable land fallow or scorched. EPA Regulations Cause Drought in California - WSJ
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Maybe stop diverting billions of gallons of water from agriculture?
        Considering the lack of snow pack in the Sierras, there may not be billions of gallons of water to divert soon, which has become the real problem since the Governator was in office, as stated in the article you quoted. You can't divert water if there's no water to divert.
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Considering the lack of snow pack in the Sierras, there may not be billions of gallons of water to divert soon, which has become the real problem since the Governator was in office, as stated in the article you quoted. You can't divert water if there's no water to divert.
          Why do you think there is a lack of snow pack? Could it be from diverting billions of gallons of water from farmland where it evaporates into the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow in the mountains?
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Why do you think there is a lack of snow pack? Could it be from diverting billions of gallons of water from farmland where it evaporates into the atmosphere to fall as rain and snow in the mountains?
            That theory would indicate that there was virtually no snowpack throughout the history of the area before water was diverted from its natural course, which mainly started in about the 1930s and 1940s.


            I'd also bet that the water from evaporation from farmland is a "drop in the bucket" of the moisture from evaporation of the Pacific. The theory of farmland evaporation being enough to re-supply the snowpack simply doesn't hold water. The farm water comes from the snowpack, so you'd need the snowpack watershed to the farmland to be 100% efficient to resupply the snowpack. A closed system of snowpack to farm irrigation to evaporation to snowpack just isn't realistic. The snowpack needs another source.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              That theory would indicate that there was virtually no snowpack throughout the history of the area before water was diverted from its natural course, which mainly started in about the 1930s and 1940s.


              I'd also bet that the water from evaporation from farmland is a "drop in the bucket" of the moisture from evaporation of the Pacific. The theory of farmland evaporation being enough to re-supply the snowpack simply doesn't hold water. The farm water comes from the snowpack, so you'd need the snowpack watershed to the farmland to be 100% efficient to resupply the snowpack. A closed system of snowpack to farm irrigation to evaporation to snowpack just isn't realistic. The snowpack needs another source.
              So you're saying significantly less water is evaporating from the ocean? Shouldn't the snow pack be increasing then if billions of gallons of water is being diverted to the ocean. Fresh water evaporates easier then salt water. You're taking away billions of gallons of water from an area west of the Sierras and you think that has no effect on the amount of snow those mountains get?
              Remember the snow pack is only around 9% below normal which though significant and a concern could very easily be accounted for by the water diverted.
              I'm not saying the irrigation water is responsible for the snow pack or am I saying there wasn't one before they built the dams and reservoirs. If you brought things back to the way they where before we even started the diverting I have a feeling the snow pack would be lower then it is now and that wouldn't be farmland in Ca. anymore. Which is how it was before the dams and irrigation turned that land into farmland.
              As for clouds, evaporated water is carried by air currents into higher atmosphere where it is cooler and the clouds are formed. It doesn't go straight up in the air.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                So you're saying significantly less water is evaporating from the ocean? Shouldn't the snow pack be increasing then if billions of gallons of water is being diverted to the ocean. Fresh water evaporates easier then salt water. You're taking away billions of gallons of water from an area west of the Sierras and you think that has no effect on the amount of snow those mountains get?
                Totally non-sequitor and also a strawman and really doesn't deserve a response. Isn't it also possible that more water is evaporating, but since condensation is the other part of the equation, higher temps mean less condensation? Nature's water system is dependent on factors other than just evaporation.

                Plus, there are many factors to take into consider with evaporation than just water volume. One is surface area.


                Plus, I didn't say "no effect". To clarify, my feeling it has little effect.

                Plus, the Pacific is estimated to have 187 QUINTILLION gallons of water. Like I said, your billions is just a drop in the bucket.


                Plus, climate change can change things like weather patterns and gulf streams, which affect where the water in the atmosphere will condense as rain and snow.

                Remember the snow pack is only around 9% below normal which though significant and a concern could very easily be accounted for by the water diverted.
                No, it can't "easily" be accounted for by water diversion. Not to mention, I don't agree with your number of "9% below normal". 9% OF normal is closer.


                Three main sources of water sustain California – mountain snowpack, water stored in reservoirs and water pumped from underground aquifers. All are connected, and when the Governor declared a drought emergency on January 17, 2014, all three had been depleted by an extended dry period. The Sierra Nevada snowpack stood at 14 percent of normal for the date. The state's two biggest reservoirs held less than 40 percent of their capacity, and aquifer levels from Siskiyou County to San Diego County were in decline.
                Water Conditions: Water Conditions
                And the drought can also be caused by climate change caused by man made global warming. Or it could be none of the above and a short term problem.

                I'm not saying the irrigation water is responsible for the snow pack or am I saying there wasn't one before they built the dams and reservoirs. If you brought things back to the way they where before we even started the diverting I have a feeling the snow pack would be lower then it is now and that wouldn't be farmland in Ca. anymore. Which is how it was before the dams and irrigation turned that land into farmland.
                I seriously doubt historical averages were lower than the snowpack is now.



                As for clouds, evaporated water is carried by air currents into higher atmosphere where it is cooler and the clouds are formed. It doesn't go straight up in the air.
                Which is how the water that evaporates from the Pacific becomes snowpack in the Sierras and also the Rockies. The theory of farmland evaporation fails because there isn't enough water in the Sierra snowpack to supply itself and the Rocky Mountain snowpack too, the numbers just don't add up.


                And it's the Rocky Mountain snowpack that sends water to the SW USA via the Colorado River, as well as much of the Southern Great Plains, as well as W. Texas via the Rio Grande. The severe water shortage in Lake Meade, which impacts Las Vegas and the rest of the SW USA has nothing to do with the water diversions to or away from farmland in N and Central California.
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  Totally non-sequitor and also a strawman and really doesn't deserve a response. Isn't it also possible that more water is evaporating, but since condensation is the other part of the equation, higher temps mean less condensation? Nature's water system is dependent on factors other than just evaporation.

                  Plus, there are many factors to take into consider with evaporation than just water volume. One is surface area.


                  Plus, I didn't say "no effect". To clarify, my feeling it has little effect.

                  Plus, the Pacific is estimated to have 187 QUINTILLION gallons of water. Like I said, your billions is just a drop in the bucket.


                  Plus, climate change can change things like weather patterns and gulf streams, which affect where the water in the atmosphere will condense as rain and snow.

                  No, it can't "easily" be accounted for by water diversion. Not to mention, I don't agree with your number of "9% below normal". 9% OF normal is closer.


                  And the drought can also be caused by climate change caused by man made global warming. Or it could be none of the above and a short term problem.

                  I seriously doubt historical averages were lower than the snowpack is now.



                  Which is how the water that evaporates from the Pacific becomes snowpack in the Sierras and also the Rockies. The theory of farmland evaporation fails because there isn't enough water in the Sierra snowpack to supply itself and the Rocky Mountain snowpack too, the numbers just don't add up.


                  And it's the Rocky Mountain snowpack that sends water to the SW USA via the Colorado River, as well as much of the Southern Great Plains, as well as W. Texas via the Rio Grande. The severe water shortage in Lake Meade, which impacts Las Vegas and the rest of the SW USA has nothing to do with the water diversions to or away from farmland in N and Central California.
                  Commercial farming contributes over 1/3 of the man made contributions to climate change so most of what you're blaming on climate change is causing it.
                  Sure the ocean has more water, duh. Sure more water evaporates from the ocean, but that is spread out over a much larger area then what the water from irrigation in Ca. does.
                  Just like diverting the water to irrigate the fields had a change on the environment, so does diverting it away from irrigation.
                  There are a lot of factors involved with what we're talking about. Diverting billions of gallons of water is one of them. The jet stream being diverted also plays into it. Dismissing diverting the water one way or the other as not contributing to the snow pack is just foolish thinking.
                  By the way according to NOAA the snow pack was 17 to 41% of the average as of the end of February.
                  As for the Colorado River, thanks to a joint agreement between the U.S. and Mexico the river reached the Gulf for the first time in 50 years recently.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    BTW Thom...Have you ever been to that area before the drought and the water diversion? If so, how many clouds did you happen to see? Wouldn't evaporation cause clouds and fog? Instead, that area has always been one of the sunniest in the USA.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Update: My number of 14% is old and not accurate. Thom's 9% is correct, except the Sierra's snowpack is 9% OF average, not 9% OFF average as Thom claimed above. That extra "F" makes a big difference.
    Snow Pack Conditions - Snow Water Content Chart


    There is NO WAY farm evaporation, or lack of, is causing 91% of snowpack to disappear, causing the drought in CA. It's impossible, especially considering that half of the Sierra's precipitation will flow east, and not west into CA. There has to be more water in the system, much more water.

    Thom...When was the last time you saw Lake Mead? You know, the reservoir that was created when Hoover dam was built on the Colorado River? Been a couple of years for me, but it was startling to see how far it has dropped in the past decade or so.

    See the white line all around the lake in the video below? That shows what the waterline used to be not that many years ago. There didn't used to be that line.


    The water that reached Mexico is due to human decisions, not natural factors. And it sure isn't because there's more water now that there's been in the past 50 year history of the dam. As a matter of fact, it's now at its historical low.

    BTW the Donner Party called and they want their Sierra snowpack back. You know, all that snow that accumulated in the Sierras before the farm irrigation theory, stranding them in the Sierras?
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      I'm not a meteorologist but I'm pretty sure about 100% of any precipitation that comes to California is formed thousands of miles away and usually from the west, which is the ocean.
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