The government of Greece feels "obliged" to confiscate "idle cash reserves" of it's local govts.

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This could be huge and have world-wide implications.

Earlier today, following weeks of speculation, Greece finally launched the first shot across the bow of capital controls, when it decreed that due to an "extremely urgent and unforeseen need" (ironically the need was quite foreseen since about 2010, but that is a different story), it would be "obliged" to transfer - as in confiscate - "idle cash reserves" located across the country's local governments (i.e., various cities and municipalities) to the Greek central bank.
George (Papanikolaou, mayor of Glyfada) is unhappy because as recently as tomorrow, he will find there is precisely zero euros in his public bank account, as all the money has now been forcibly sequestered by the government in order to repay future Troika, pardon, IMF obligations.
Stunned Greeks React To Initial Capital Controls And The "Decree To Confiscate Reserves"


Bloomberg

Running out of other options, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras ordered local governments and central government entities to move their cash balances to the central bank for investment in short-term state debt.

The decree to confiscate reserves held in commercial banks and transfer them to the Bank of Greece could raise as much as 2 billion euros ($2.15 billion), according to two people familiar with the decision. The money is needed to pay salaries and pensions at the end of the month, the people said.
Greek Mayors to Protest Government Decision to Seize Their Cash - Bloomberg Business


Did I mention, this could be huge!

Joe Mobley
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Spend the money locally & there's no surplus. Done.
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  • Profile picture of the author dremy154
    No surprise. This started back in 2008; actually way before. We are coming to a precipis:

    Why Germany wants its 674 tons of gold back - The Washington Post

    Much more where this came from, just need to think outside of our conditioning.

    Please, no hate mail.

    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    This happens exactly THE SAME WAY every time.
    Yet, it seems, no one is able to "see it coming."

    When you ALLOW the gov't to control the "dials" on your society,
    you can't really complain when the gov't just DECIDES to
    turn those "dials" any which way they please!

    Same exact progression EVERY TIME.
    Just makes the news at some point as a "surprise" (it's really no surprise at all),
    when the final (100% PREDICTABLE) steps are:
    - Empty store shelves.
    - Water cannons.

    Then come the cattle cars, and the secret police, etc.

    Overall description of the real problem: Gov't is a *living, breathing ENTITY.*
    Every time it is given 1/2 a chance it will devour everything in its path.
    The people IN the gov't are just along for the ride.

    The only solution is to build a very strong CAGE, then CODIFY it!
    Then make sure gov't can never get out of the cage!

    -- TW
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      The only solution is to build a very strong CAGE, then CODIFY it! Then make sure gov't can never get out of the cage! -- TW
      Is this what is meant by the term, 'wishful thinking?'

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Is this what is meant by the term, 'wishful thinking?'

        Cheers. - Frank
        It's actually a part of what the US Constitution started out as.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post


    Wow!

    FDR confiscated gold reserves during the Great Depression.

    Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States".

    The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

    Executive Order 6102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Wow!

      FDR confiscated gold reserves during the Great Depression.

      Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States".

      The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

      Executive Order 6102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      If you will read closer, it wasn't a confiscation but a forced redemption of gold for paper federal reserve notes. Seizure only happened after the deadline as part of the penalty for failure to redeem.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        This happens exactly THE SAME WAY every time.
        Yet, it seems, no one is able to "see it coming."
        Don't know about that - but in this case (Greece) you had a country providing WELL for it's citizens - much better than it could afford to. Greece is the latest proof that you can only overspend and overpromise for so long before the money and the credit run out.

        The newly elected govt in Greece is far left - promised to ease austerity programs and to "ease" the debt load. They have no idea how to do it but the people there were desperate to end the bad times so they believed the promises. The only leverage I can see is the reluctance of the EU to have a member leave the organization and set a precedent for that. I don't know if that is enough for the EU to keep funding Greece at this point.

        Seems to me after confiscating local funds, the local govts will be broke - and that money will only cover the national bills for this month. Where does the money come from next month? I don't see how Greece can remain part of the EU much longer - but that's just my view of what I'm reading and seeing. Maybe they can pull it out for a another year or two...
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


          Seems to me after confiscating local funds, the local govts will be broke - and that money will only cover the national bills for this month. Where does the money come from next month?
          Unless I miss my bet, the next step will be the confiscation of private funds and property.


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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I don't see how Greece can remain part of the EU much longer - but that's just my view of what I'm reading and seeing.
          I think that is a reasonable and wise observation.


          Additionally, I think that Greece and socialists world-wide will paint Germany as the bad guy in all of this. Much like the college student that is angry at the parents because they refuse to continue funding indiscriminate spending.


          Also, I think there is a very good "writing on the wall" lesson in this for those willing to read it.


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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Don't know about that - but in this case (Greece) you had a country providing WELL for it's citizens - much better than it could afford to. Greece is the latest proof that you can only overspend and overpromise for so long before the money and the credit run out.
          .
          It would seem that your 1st sentence doesn't pass the logic test. Providing what doesn't really exist, cannot be said to be "providing well." Unless by providing well you mean irresponsibly and/or deceptively.

          Watching this EXACT SAME dynamic happen over and over and over again is "surprising" in the same way that "discovering" that smoking causes cancer is "surprising."

          -- TW
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

            It would seem that your 1st sentence doesn't pass the logic test. Providing what doesn't really exist, cannot be said to be "providing well." Unless by providing well you mean irresponsibly and/or deceptively.

            Watching this EXACT SAME dynamic happen over and over and over again is "surprising" in the same way that "discovering" that smoking causes cancer is "surprising."

            -- TW
            Governments are well adapted to taking everything they want for themselves and letting their people either rot or killing them directly and overtly. Then the next gov comes along and everyone thinks "we're different" "It can't happen to us". Seems to be a disconnect in the human brain that will not allow people to realize gov as a very dangerous entity that they ignore until it's so powerful it's impossible to stop. Until it's impossible to get large groups of people to believe any candy coated garbage their tossed, it will never change.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              Governments are well adapted to taking everything they want for themselves and letting their people either rot or killing them directly and overtly. Then the next gov comes along and everyone thinks "we're different" "It can't happen to us". Seems to be a disconnect in the human brain that will not allow people to realize gov as a very dangerous entity that they ignore until it's so powerful it's impossible to stop. Until it's impossible to get large groups of people to believe any candy coated garbage their tossed, it will never change.
              Exactly!

              That is the whole point of why America was formed in the way it was.
              So far the cage has held up pretty well.

              As you point out -- the DANGER is, enough people getting lazy about keeping the cage LOCKED UP TIGHT, and thinking, "I can't happen here," or, "I'm sure it'll be ok (if...)," etc.

              The gov't IS a living breathing ENTITY -- and it's personality is that of a METH HEAD. It will do ANYTHING to find a way out of its cage. ANYTHING.

              It CANNOT be trusted!

              And -- once the dials get turned too far over, it is IMPOSSIBLE to turn them back again!

              Beware!

              -- TW
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                [...]

                And -- once the dials get turned too far over, it is IMPOSSIBLE to turn them back again!

                Beware!

                -- TW
                Not impossible, but very, very painful and requiring steps that the majority will either be ambivalent to or directly oppose.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  Not impossible, but very, very painful and requiring steps that the majority will either be ambivalent to or directly oppose.
                  Not impossible?!?

                  Try telling that to the billions of Chinese men + women who look at themselves in the mirror each morning with a slight tear in their eye, because "doing something" about their lack of freedom *IS* impossible, and always will be.
                  AKA: They are permanently, and irreversibly screwed.

                  -- TW
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                  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                    Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

                    Not impossible?!?

                    Try telling that to the billions of Chinese men + women who look at themselves in the mirror each morning with a slight tear in their eye, because "doing something" about their lack of freedom *IS* impossible, and always will be.
                    AKA: They are permanently, and irreversibly screwed.

                    -- TW
                    I don't know how old you are, but the same sort of thing was said about the Soviet Union. The Chinese Nationalists probably thought the same when Mao started making noises in the 40s. I'm sure King George thought it was impossible before 1776.

                    Nothing is impossible, but there may not be enough willing people to pay the price of bringing about change.
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    • Profile picture of the author magentawave
      And then Nixon let the USD float (1973-ish?), both of which have contributed to the USD losing 98% of its value since the banksters started the Federal Reserve in 1913.

      None of this confiscation stuff surprises me as I suspect its only a matter of time before the US gov starts looting bank accounts and IRA's, etc.

      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Wow!

      FDR confiscated gold reserves during the Great Depression.

      Executive Order 6102 is a United States presidential executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States".

      The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

      Executive Order 6102 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Remarks stricken from the record.



    Is joining the E.U. anything like joining the U.S.?

    As in, once you're in - you can't get out?
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Remarks stricken from the record.



      Is joining the E.U. anything like joining the U.S.?

      As in, once you're in - you can't get out?

      There are procedures, at least there were initially, but the procedure to unwind would be difficult at best, mindboggling, at worst.


      Here's a just a brief taste:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdra...European_Union
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      From your link,

      The decision this week by the Greek government to scrape together spare cash from municipalities and state enterprises like hospitals and the national gallery is likely to buy some time. The move -- which Greek lawmakers formally approved in a vote late Friday -- could, according to independent estimates, rake in 2 billion euros, which would cover its debt payments in May, including to the IMF.

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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Where do you think Greece might fall within this observation?

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
    government. It can only exist until the voters discover
    that they can vote themselves largess from the public
    treasury. From that time on the majority always votes
    for the candidates promising the most benefits from the
    public treasury, with the results that a democracy
    always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed
    by a dictatorship.

    The average age of the world's great civilizations
    has been 200 years. These nations have
    progressed through this sequence:
    from bondage to spiritual faith
    from spiritual faith to great courage
    from courage to liberty
    from liberty to abundance
    from abundance to selfishness
    from selfishness to complacency
    from complacency to apathy
    from apathy to dependency
    from dependency back to bondage."
    -- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)
    As far as that goes, where do you think the US is at this particular point in time?
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      As far as that goes, where do you think the US is at this particular point in time?
      Serious? We're eyeball deep in fascism. There's almost no difference between the heads of large powerful corporations and elected officials. Some of them even write the laws that are passed now.

      The problem is, is that the average American has absolutely not one drop of political philosophy/history education and they don't recognize fascism unless it hits the level that has been actually publicized and talked about widely - the concentration camp. Without those, people haven't a clue that they're in a fascist society, it seems.

      What they don't realize is that in a fascist society, the country itself can become the camp. We have victimless crimes which send people to corporate prisons - Monsanto using the whole population as a science experiment, aerial geo-engineering (recently banned in 193 countries), a medical industrial complex in place of health care (one that is boldly corporate enough to actually advertise drugs on TV), a military industrial complex, indentured servitude of every citizen to World Bank. Amendments of a Republican doctrine of rights being destroyed (we no longer have a 4th amendment thanks to our "reps" voting our inalienable right to privacy and probable cause out the window NDAA). Our state rights are being over-turned and taken over by a central gov that is now claiming authorities over aspects of our nation that our constitution purposely restricted them from taking.

      We're not "in danger of" -- we're there. Don't believe me? Watch the "you stupid conspiracy theorist" posts from a bunch of droolers who can barely spell political philosophy, let alone describe the individualizing aspects of any one of any given philosophy. Most people right now don't even understand the dangers of taking a right away from people if it's something that they think is a good idea. It's screamin' pathetic.

      </RANT>
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Where do you think Greece might fall within this observation?



      As far as that goes, where do you think the US is at this particular point in time?
      That quote is not a quote from Tytler. In fact, the two parts of the quote didn't start appearing together until the 1970s and later was widely spread through the internet, no doubt by right wingers who want to believe it's some sort of law of nature or historical fact, which of course it isn't.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

        That quote is not a quote from Tytler. In fact, the two parts of the quote didn't start appearing together until the 1970s and later was widely spread through the internet, no doubt by right wingers who want to believe it's some sort of law of nature or historical fact, which of course it isn't.
        Whoever said it first (and I tried to find out when I quoted it) doesn't matter. What matters is the gist of it is inescapable. It is what is happening now.

        Any honest observer can see it.

        When a pol wants to be elected and they promise to rob Peter to pay Paul (the rich don't pay enough taxes!!) who is Paul going to vote for? DUH.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          Whoever said it first (and I tried to find out when I quoted it) doesn't matter. What matters is the gist of it is inescapable. It is what is happening now.

          Any honest observer can see it.

          When a pol wants to be elected and they promise to rob Peter to pay Paul (the rich don't pay enough taxes!!) who is Paul going to vote for? DUH.
          Well, keep quoting it if you want but besides being misattributed to Tytler it is also pure bs. "The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years." That sentence alone should make anyone who has even a basic knowledge of history laugh. It's ridiculous.

          Sure, great civilizations and all democracies ended because they taxed the rich too much. Lol.

          Those two quotes were not written by a historian, which Tytler was, but by two people who had an agenda. It's been requoted by others with their own agenda mistakenly thinking it is historical fact. Btw, one of those who repeated it was some actor named Reagan. :/
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


            Sure, great civilizations and all democracies ended because they taxed the rich too much. Lol.
            Governments that fail due to financial reasons, fail because of mishandling of the treasury by the leadership.

            (You can quote me on that.)


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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

              Governments and individuals that fail due to financial reasons, fail because of mishandling of the treasury by the leadership. - Joe Mobley
              Fixed that for ya'!

              Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            Well, keep quoting it if you want but besides being misattributed to Tytler it is also pure bs. "The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years." That sentence alone should make anyone who has even a basic knowledge of history laugh. It's ridiculous.

            Sure, great civilizations and all democracies ended because they taxed the rich too much. Lol.

            Those two quotes were not written by a historian, which Tytler was, but by two people who had an agenda. It's been requoted by others with their own agenda mistakenly thinking it is historical fact. Btw, one of those who repeated it was some actor named Reagan. :/
            You're deliberately off-point and abrasive, as usual, most likely because you cannot refute the main idea.

            I don't give half a crap who said it or how they said it or even if they said it - the idea is clear: people who are on the receiving end of the income redistribution scheme - AKA Paul - are going to continue to vote for politicians who promise to perpetuate and expand it. Politicians who want to get re-elected will give it to them by confiscating more from Peter, with absolute zero respect for the rights of personal property of which wealth is one of.

            As Greece has found out, there is a limit to the amount of wealth that can be confiscated from the country's citizens before the scheme implodes.
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            • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              As Greece has found out, there is a limit to the amount of wealth that can be confiscated from the country's citizens before the scheme implodes.
              And therein lies the problem. They didn't "confiscate the wealth of its citizens", it borrowed the money for its social programs from the other EU nations.

              Had they bothered to collect taxes, oops sorry, I mean "confiscate the wealth" in the first place, it wouldn't be in half the mess it's in now.

              Or, to use your analogy, Greece didn't rob Peter to pay Paul, it borrowed money from Patrick to pay Peter AND Paul.
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                And therein lies the problem. They didn't "confiscate the wealth of its citizens", it borrowed the money for its social programs from the other EU nations.

                Had they bothered to collect taxes, oops sorry, I mean "confiscate the wealth" in the first place, it wouldn't be in half the mess it's in now.

                Or, to use your analogy, Greece didn't rob Peter to pay Paul, it borrowed money from Patrick to pay Peter AND Paul.
                Same end result - who's going to pay it back, Peter or Paul? Or will they steal it from Patrick by not paying back at all?
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                • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  Same end result - who's going to pay it back, Peter or Paul? Or will they steal it from Patrick by not paying back at all?
                  I don't know the answer to that one any more than you do. I get the impression that the Greeks wouldn't have a clue either.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              You're deliberately off-point and abrasive, as usual, most likely because you cannot refute the main idea.

              I don't give half a crap who said it or how they said it or even if they said it - the idea is clear: people who are on the receiving end of the income redistribution scheme - AKA Paul - are going to continue to vote for politicians who promise to perpetuate and expand it. Politicians who want to get re-elected will give it to them by confiscating more from Peter, with absolute zero respect for the rights of personal property of which wealth is one of.

              As Greece has found out, there is a limit to the amount of wealth that can be confiscated from the country's citizens before the scheme implodes.
              It's clear you have a very low opinion of your country and of your fellow citizens. Perhaps you should find a country where they don't "confiscate" or "steal" from any of it's citizens and move there. Here's a hint though on that idea: there isn't a country like that. All countries tax their citizens. It's part of living in a civilized world. I kind of like the country I live in and a great majority of its citizens.

              Also, both sides, conservatives and liberals, receive entitlements. Few elections are decided because one politician promises to take from a mythical Peter to give to Paul, the voter. That's just another false meme put out by those people who you apparently buy everything they say hook, line and sinker.

              What do you think those two quotes were really talking about anyways? I'm pretty sure they were mostly referring to social security and medicare. Two government programs that are extremely popular among citizens who belong to both major parties now, although when they were created one party opposed them with over the top rhetoric such as this:

              "[I]f you don't [stop Medicare] and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free." - Ronald Reagan.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                The problem in Greece is what can happen in societies. When more than half the voters rely on govt largesse....it does affect elections. In the case of Greece, my take is it's more than that. The deprivation suffered in that country over the past 2-3 years have angered people and they elected officials who promise to ease the suffering....though they have no tools to make those changes.

                I don't think Greece has the ability now or in the future to repay the bailouts they've been granted. Question is whether the EU will accept that reality - ease the terms of payback and provide more funds....or not.

                I'd say this latest crisis may not drag on too long as Greece has some big payments and bonds coming due in early May. It doesn't look now as if those payments can be met and no one is saying what will happen if they aren't.

                The real question is what this latest crisis will do to the EU and the European economy...and if that's a problem, whether it will extent to Wall Street.
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                It's clear you have a very low opinion of your country and of your fellow citizens. Perhaps you should find a country where they don't "confiscate" or "steal" from any of it's citizens and move there. Here's a hint though on that idea: there isn't a country like that. All countries tax their citizens. It's part of living in a civilized world. I kind of like the country I live in and a great majority of its citizens.

                Also, both sides, conservatives and liberals, receive entitlements. Few elections are decided because one politician promises to take from a mythical Peter to give to Paul, the voter. That's just another false meme put out by those people who you apparently buy everything they say hook, line and sinker.

                What do you think those two quotes were really talking about anyways? I'm pretty sure they were mostly referring to social security and medicare. Two government programs that are extremely popular among citizens who belong to both major parties now, although when they were created one party opposed them with over the top rhetoric such as this:

                "[I]f you don't [stop Medicare] and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free." - Ronald Reagan.
                I don't have a low opinion of the country at all. I believe there is still hope. I do have a low opinion of a certain percentage of the population who have no moral opposition to the seizure or confiscation of a person's wealth or property to give to another, who have no problem with attempting to take away the basic freedoms this country was built on. News flash: the right to the fruits of another person's labor wasn't one of them.

                You deliberately (oh, surprise!!) engage in hyperbole in comparing a position of fewer taxes to that of no taxes. I am done defending your false and misleading proclamations. Talk about over the top.

                Of course entitlement programs are popular - people are getting something for nothing with that something being paid for by someone else. Party affiliation or political leaning means nothing.

                That elections aren't decided at least partly on the promise of expanded entitlements is nonsense. You know it and I know it. You can say it isn't so, but you'd be blowing smoke yet again.

                Reagan spoke the truth, and if saying so makes you snort in your coffee, all the better.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  Reagan spoke the truth, and if saying so makes you snort in your coffee, all the better.
                  "Gov't is not the solution to the problem. Gov't *IS* the problem."

                  True dat.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post


                  Reagan spoke the truth...
                  Well, the only problem with believing that is he himself didn't believe it. No true believer of that anti medicare scare rhetoric by Reagan in 1961 would ever really do what president Reagan did while he was in office. He not only signed improvements to medicare while president, but he also pushed and signed a major expansion of Medicare during his lame duck term. Why? Not to get votes obviously, but because it was the freaking right thing to do:

                  "Over the course of President Reagan's two terms, a number of changes were made to Medicare and Medicaid, primarily through annual budget reconciliation legislation. Highlights of these changes include expanding Medicaid waivers to allow states more flexibility in providing home and community-based services to beneficiaries who otherwise would have been institutionalized as well as waivers allowing included a new prospective payment system for inpatient hospital services, risk contracts for HMOs, and new Peer Review Organizations to improve the quality of health care. As a condition of participation in
                  Medicare, hospitals with emergency rooms were required to provide emergency screening and treatment to all patients in COBRA 1985.

                  The Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA) of 1988 strengthened quality performance requirements for clinical laboratories in order to assure accurate and reliable laboratory tests and
                  procedures...

                  Secretary Bowen came to HHS in 1986 with the goal of extending Medicare to cover the costs of catastrophic illness. President Reagan called upon the Secretary in the State of the Union to develop such a plan. A Secretarial task force made recommendations and Congress subsequently passed the Medicar Catastrophic Coverage Act of 1988.

                  It made the most significant changes since enactment of the Medicare program; including improved hospital and skilled nursing facility benefits, an outpatient prescription drug benefit and a cap on
                  beneficiary cost-sharing liability. The benefits were financed by beneficiaries through new premiums and an income tax surcharge. Nursing home reform was enacted in OBRA 1987 after the Institute of
                  Medicine issued a report calling for new national standards to improve the quality of nursing home care."

                  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...OokwQt4hpi51eA

                  If Reagan really truly honestly believed in what he said in 61 he wouldn't have signed the bills he did whIle president. Yet, you think he was right. Lol

                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post


                  ...comparing a position of fewer taxes to that of no taxes.
                  Well, when you repeatedly use words like "confiscate" and "steal" to describe taxes and when you repeatedly say something such as "..the right to the fruits of another person's labor wasn't one of them." it doesn't seem like you are just talking about lower taxes. At what point then, do taxes stop being theft and are just taxes? In other words, the over the top hyperbole you constantly use, or misquote from others, is not helpful just as Reagan's ridiculous 1961 speech.

                  By the way, I find it interesting that you describe social security and medicare as simply "getting something for nothing". Most people put a lifetime into paying into those systems. Again, over the top rhetoric with little meaning. Throw in a line about freedoms being lost and the constitution and there ya go! Lol
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                  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    ...
                    Well, when you repeatedly use words like "confiscate" and "steal" to describe taxes and when you repeatedly say something such as "..the right to the fruits of another person's labor wasn't one of them." it doesn't seem like you are just talking about lower taxes. At what point then, do taxes stop being theft and are just taxes? In other words, the over the top hyperbole you constantly use, or misquote from others, is not helpful just as Reagan's ridiculous 1961 speech.

                    By the way, I find it interesting that you describe social security and medicare as simply "getting something for nothing". Most people put a lifetime into paying into those systems. Again, over the top rhetoric with little meaning. Throw in a line about freedoms being lost and the constitution and there ya go! Lol
                    All taxes by their very nature are confiscation. Are they voluntary?

                    Taxes fund governmental functions. The big question, and the one that will ultimately be the cause of more confrontations and conflict in days to come is "how much government is necessary?"

                    The country was founded on principles of limited government, not statist or socialistic ideas. If you want to be a socialist, go to Greece. The tables are going to be turned back here eventually. Maybe it will take a big fight, another revolution against an overpowering, overreaching, out-of-control government. Maybe not. I hope not, really. But one way or another, it will happen.

                    King George III laughed, too. How'd that turn out for him?
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                      All taxes by their very nature are confiscation. Are they voluntary?

                      Taxes fund governmental functions. The big question, and the one that will ultimately be the cause of more confrontations and conflict in days to come is "how much government is necessary?"

                      The country was founded on principles of limited government, not statist or socialistic ideas. If you want to be a socialist, go to Greece.

                      The tables are going to be turned back here eventually.

                      Maybe it will take a big fight, another revolution against an overpowering, overreaching, out-of-control government. Maybe not. I hope not, really. But one way or another, it will happen.

                      King George III laughed, too. How'd that turn out for him?
                      Over reaching to some, not reaching far enough to others.

                      There will be a big fight if someone tries to take away programs like SS, Medicare and if the ACA lives for another 8 or so years the ACA will join the list of untouchable national programs.

                      Your folks better kill it soon or else it'll be another national program that you folks hate and can't get rid of.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        I found a link to an older article I thought was interesting - it's above and beyond the monetary crisis talk and describes the changes residents of Greece have gone through since this economic crisis began.

                        The reality of lost jobs and so many business failures, etc is shocking but the people found ways to survive. This was 3 years ago so it's not surprising it's becoming tiresome....

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/ma...-now.html?_r=0
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      Maybe it will take a big fight, another revolution...
                      A revolution for what? To lower taxes on the rich ( Peter ) so you can take away social security and medicare from the poor ( Paul )? Lol. Sounds like a hell of a revolution.
                      Aka a so-called "useful idiot."
                      I think the modern day version of that term would apply to those who are minions for the 1%, not to someone like TL who is a capitalist who simply believes in a strong middle class.
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                      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        A revolution for what? To lower taxes on the rich ( Peter ) so you can take away social security and medicare from the poor ( Paul )? Lol. Sounds like a hell of a revolution.
                        How about to lower taxes on middle-class small business people? Self-employed people pay 15.6% of net profit right off the top and that's before any income and other taxes.

                        If wage earners actually had to write a check out of earnings for their taxes instead of having the money withheld, do you think there would be the complacency there is today?

                        I think the modern day version of that term would apply to those who are minions for the 1%, not to someone like TL who is a capitalist who simply believes in a strong middle class.
                        Thanks for my morning entertainment

                        TL is no more a capitalist than you are. You are both unabashed statists/socialists. Calling a giraffe a zebra doesn't make it a zebra.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                          How about to lower taxes on middle-class small business people? Self-employed people pay 15.6% of net profit right off the top and that's before any income and other taxes.

                          If wage earners actually had to write a check out of earnings for their taxes instead of having the money withheld, do you think there would be the complacency there is today?


                          Thanks for my morning entertainment

                          TL is no more a capitalist than you are. You are both unabashed statists/socialists. Calling a giraffe a zebra doesn't make it a zebra.
                          And I broke out in laughter when I saw you posted.


                          You did not disappoint. Thanks!!

                          Just because we want robust gov intervention and national programs in some keys areas of society it does not mean we are socialists or statists.

                          We're not the type to ignore historic realities while sticking with principles that conflict with the reality of modern day America.

                          You seem to believe in UNfettered capitalism and we simply don't.

                          You can correct me if I'm wrong.

                          Actually if you do believe in unfettered capitalism you could be called a corporatist or coprolite - meaning one who believes in large corps being in charge of anything and everything...

                          (and I seriously doubt that would be good for the standard of living for the general populace)

                          ... because for the life of me I don't understand how you can't see that as the natural outcome of your UNfettered capitalism philosophy - unless that is actually what you desire.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                          How about to lower taxes on middle-class small business people? Self-employed people pay 15.6% of net profit right off the top and that's before any income and other taxes.

                          If wage earners actually had to write a check out of earnings for their taxes instead of having the money withheld, do you think there would be the complacency there is today?
                          Still, doesn't sound like the stuff revolutions are made of. Most small business owners just pay their taxes, work hard, make money and move on without talking about a revolution.

                          TL is no more a capitalist than you are. You are both unabashed statists/socialists.
                          TL does pretty well in his own small business and he is nowhere near being a true socialist. Hey, every country in the world has a mixed economic system, using aspects of capitalism and socialism. This practice of calling someone a socialist as if it's some terrible thing went out of fashion decades ago. Unfortunately there are those who want to live in the past it seems.
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                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            Still, doesn't sound like the stuff revolutions are made of. Most small business owners just pay their taxes, work hard, make money and move on without talking about a revolution.



                            TL does pretty well in his own small business and he is nowhere near being a true socialist. Hey, every country in the world has a mixed economic system, using aspects of capitalism and socialism. This practice of calling someone a socialist as if it's some terrible thing went out of fashion decades ago. Unfortunately there are those who want to live in the past it seems.
                            Tim, as with many other economic concepts, I'm not so sure Steve J.(and many in his amen corner) understands exactly what socialism is.

                            I think he thinks if there are some safety net programs it makes the whole society socialist or if gov intervenes in any way, shape or form with anything, its socialism.



                            Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.


                            Socialism | Definition of socialism by Merriam-Webster

                            If he believes in UNfettered cap then he is more of a corporatist than you or myself is a socialist or statis.


                            Note: I going to practice some capitalism by going to Jiffy Lube and get a haircut. LOL!
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


                "[I]f you don't [stop Medicare] and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free." - Ronald Reagan.
                Unfortunately, that day has come...

                and gone.


                Joe Mobley
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                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Well, keep quoting it if you want but besides being misattributed to Tytler it is also pure bs. "The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years." That sentence alone should make anyone who has even a basic knowledge of history laugh. It's ridiculous.


                  Hmm... I was taught that in my junior high history class, 7th or 8th grade, can't remember which.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    " The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years.
                    These nations have progressed through this sequence:
                    1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
                    2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
                    3. from courage to liberty;
                    4. from liberty to abundance;
                    5. from abundance to selfishness;
                    6. from selfishness to complacency;
                    7. from complaceny to apathy;
                    8. from apathy to dependence;
                    9. from dependency back again into bondage."
                    Sir Alex Fraser Tyler: (1742-1813) Scottish jurist and historian
                    Alexander Fraser Tytler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    The comments on "misattribution" on the page linked above are interesting.

                    I remember the list quoted above from a class many years ago - it made quite an impression on me because it makes sense. "Complacency" could be replaced with "entitlement"....
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                    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      "Complacency" could be replaced with "entitlement"....
                      Isn't it strange how the word "entitlement" is always applied to poor people receiving government largesse, and never rich people or corporates receiving money from the same source.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                        I'm not sure that's the case - I've seen many large companies and businesses who move into areas fully expecting tax breaks, infrastructure built at public expense, etc.

                        Entitlement isn't limited to the poor at all. Unless you choose that interpretation.
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                      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                        Isn't it strange how the word "entitlement" is always applied to poor people receiving government largesse, and never rich people or corporates receiving money from the same source.
                        Undoubtedly you're talking about subsidies for corporations - which I totally unequivocally oppose. For anything. Tobacco, corn, ethanol, sugar, whatever.

                        If you're talking tax breaks, those aren't entitlements, which any third grader would know.

                        'Entitlements' are the same thing no matter the economic level of those receiving them, no distinction between rich or poor.
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                        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                          Unless you choose that interpretation.
                          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                          'Entitlements' are the same thing no matter the economic level of those receiving them, no distinction between rich or poor.
                          Ok, I was using that interpretation to describe local issues. Down here at the moment the word "entitlement" is being used to justify cuts to those who are genuinely in need, whilst maintaining or even increasing handouts to the corporate sector.

                          My apologies for the misunderstanding, I should've added a caveat to clarify that.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                    Hmm... I was taught that in my junior high history class, 7th or 8th grade, can't remember which.
                    Maybe it was Empires they taught you about? Let's look at the four main (greatest? ) ancient civilizations: Mesopotamia, ancient Egypt, the Harappan civilization of Indus Valley ( now nw India and Pakistan ) and ancient China. All four of these lasted thousands of years. Some would say the Chinese civilization continues to today even. In China there were many different dynasties or Empires but these aren't considered individual or separate civilizations. They were a period of the Chinese civilization.

                    My point is a civilization is a very broad term and if you put the word great before it these are going to be very long lasting periods of times and really there will only be a handful of "great" ones. If there have been several civilizations that lasted thousands of years then you would likely need many more that only lasted 30 or 40 or 50 years for the average age of a civilization to be 200 years. I don't think a civilization can even be called that if it last just a few decades and it certainly wouldn't be considered great.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    By definition (almost) Govt's have no resources of their own. When they open "their" checkbook, they are really opening someone else's checkbook.

    -- TW
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Hi Liberator - re: your FDR quote. There are many who now view what FDR did as (having the effect of) prolonging the depression, not ending it.

    Also, some of his policies were, at the time (and now would be) deemed by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional -- WITH GOOD REASON!

    There are many who now see what he did (+ the philosophy behind it!), as exactly the WRONG thing to do. Your notion of making him into a saint, could very well be misguided.

    Also, IMO, that particular FDR quote reflects a statist attitude, and,if believed and implemented, is an ultimately destructive to human freedom. An Orwellian half-truth that SOUNDS good on the surface - possibly intentionally deceptive, too.

    -- TW
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post

      Hi Liberator - re: your FDR quote. There are many who now view what FDR did as (having the effect of) prolonging the depression, not ending it.

      Also, some of his policies were, at the time (and now would be) deemed by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional -- WITH GOOD REASON!

      There are many who now see what he did (+ the philosophy behind it!), as exactly the WRONG thing to do. Your notion of making him into a saint, could very well be misguided.

      -- TW
      Of course there are some who dislike what FDR stood for ect. and the SCOTUS can and will make some strange decisions as evidenced by them simply taking the latest ACA case.

      FDR must be taken down a peg or two or else all that he stood for would be a lot harder for the forces you support to topple his reforms and turn this nation back into a nation for the wealthy, of the wealthy and by the wealthy. (and large corps of course)


      History Lesson:

      After WW2 this nation become a middle class nation and after 1980 it began to became a 1%/corporate nation.

      I believe we are now in the process of turning it back into a middle class oriented nation.


      But...

      I want to thank you and your everyday friends - doing the bidding of the rich and powerful (including large corporations) for helping to slow down the process. Thanks a million!

      Many people mistake what a nation is for and...

      I have to wonder about you folks who are so much in a hurry to turn the people of the U.S. over to absolute complete corporate control as that would be the net effect of all your hooper-ing and hollering if your wishes came to fruition.

      If everyday people like yourself who support these not-too-helpful attitudes/initiatives to the American middle class knew anything about history and the nature of societies you might pause in your endeavors on behalf of the bad rich guys and bad corporate citizens.



      BTW...

      I seriously doubt I'm on the wrong side of American history.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Of course there are some who dislike what FDR stood for ect. and the SCOTUS can and will make some strange decisions as evidenced by them simply taking the latest ACA case.

        FDR must be taken down a peg or two or else all that he stood for would be a lot harder for the forces you support to topple his reforms and turn this nation back into a nation for the wealthy, of the wealthy and by the wealthy. (and large corps of course)


        History Lesson:

        After WW2 this nation become a middle class nation and after 1980 it began to became a 1%/corporate nation.

        I believe we are now in the process of turning it back into a middle class oriented nation.


        But...

        I want to thank you and your everyday friends - doing the bidding of the rich and powerful (including large corporations) for helping to slow down the process. Thanks a million!

        Many people mistake what a nation is for and...

        I have to wonder about you folks who are so much in a hurry to turn the people of the U.S. over to absolute complete corporate control as that would be the net effect of all your hooper-ing and hollering if your wishes came to fruition.

        If everyday people like yourself who support these not-too-helpful attitudes/initiatives to the American middle class knew anything about history and the nature of societies you might pause in your endeavors on behalf of the bad rich guys and bad corporate citizens.



        BTW...

        I seriously doubt I'm on the wrong side of American history.
        In my opinion you are taking the exact stance that people always take when they "don't see it coming." Aka a so-called "useful idiot."

        As I see it, the primary goal of govt is to HELP the citizens -- "Help" them right down the road to serfdom. The more you can CONVINCE the citizenry you are "helping" them, the easier it'll be to get them to fall over the "serfdom" cliff.

        Tell me this... when the Supreme Court DID strike down part of what FDR tried tried to implement, what would you say they were saying about what they struck down? What ABOUT it did they find unconstitutional? I'm pretty sure it's because FDR was overreaching (read: his govt was becoming oppressive). In America that's not how we roll, thankfully.

        BTW, I think that time will tell that you are INDEED on the wrong side of American history...
        to wit: The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great...The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great...
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        • Profile picture of the author magentawave
          And by the way... www.Mises.org has lots of books by Rothbard and others detailing how FDR's Federal Reserve fiat money fueled programs prolonged the depression - and everything at Mises.org is FREE.

          Originally Posted by TimothyW View Post


          BTW, I think that time will tell that you are INDEED on the wrong side of American history...
          to wit: The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression: Amity Shlaes: 9780060936426: Amazon.com: Books
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Should the thread say, "Only Greeks Allowed?"
            No - but maybe the rules should say "political agendas are welcome???"

            >>> New Austerity Measure: All Greek Citizens To Be Implanted With "Anit-Fraud" RF Chips.
            You have a flight of imagination and assume you know what others here think of your factitious headlines.... Then you say "I'm sure it won't happen....but my point still stands"

            If you are making up imaginary scenarios, what's the point to begin with?
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              No - but maybe the rules should say "political agendas are welcome???"
              I've never seen you call out Steve J, Seasoned, Joe M etc...for breaking the rules about political agendas. Funny how that works.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              No - but maybe the rules should say "political agendas are welcome???"



              You have a flight of imagination and assume you know what others here think of your factitious headlines.... Then you say "I'm sure it won't happen....but my point still stands"

              If you are making up imaginary scenarios, what's the point to begin with?
              How can one talk about what is happening in Greece WITHOUT having/espousing a "political agenda?" What's happening in Greece *IS* a walking, talking, political agenda!

              The point of my imaginary headline about RF chips, is clearly written within that same post. Here it is again: Once the servant has become the master, the (new) master (in this case, the guv-mint) can do whatever it darn well pleases. Once it is the master, and the people are the servant, "the change has come" and it's virtually impossible to reverse it -- so yes, RF chips (or any other wacky "solution" that flouts basic civil rights + freedoms), are (become) fair game.

              -- TW
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          • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
            Originally Posted by magentawave View Post

            And by the way... www.Mises.org has lots of books by Rothbard and others detailing how FDR's Federal Reserve fiat money fueled programs prolonged the depression - and everything at Mises.org is FREE.
            This whole new (not really so new) thing about seeing FDRs actions as actually *prolonging* the depression, not ending it, reminds me of a conversation I had with my older brother.

            I was telling him about how many people now believe that senior citizens do not "fall + break their hip." Many times the reality is, they break their hip, and fall. In other words, it isn't the fall that causes the broken hip -- it's the (spontaneous) breaking of the hip that causes the fall.

            This "new" idea (now it's not so new!) is something I had heard about somehow -- but my brother's reaction when I told him about it, was "Nope, I've never heard of that -- (therefore) it doesn't exist..."

            What do you do with someone like that? They've never heard of something that is becoming more and more accepted as the truth -- becoming more and more mainstream... yet *they've* never heard of it, therefore it doesn't exist (or it SHOULDN'T exist).

            -- TW
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Like I said, calling a giraffe a zebra doesn't make it a zebra.

    Statism | Definition of statism by Merriam-Webster

    concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry
    Dictionary.com defines it a little differently Statism | Define Statism at Dictionary.com :

    the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty.
    If that doesn't fit you guys to a T, I don't know what does.

    This guy described it pretty well http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/statism-socialism:
    This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what we are up against in terms of attempting to reform our current government. We do not live in a socialist country -- we live in a statist one. [The current president] is not pushing for equality across the board, he is pushing for centralization of power in the hands of the state, via large proxi corporations to maintain the guise of "free market capitalism." While this has some similarity with socialist ideals, they are not the same thing (not to mention that referring to Obama as a "socialist" is an ad hominem attack, and would be the equivalent of referring to a libertarian as an "anarchist" without putting forth an argument.)
    As I actually DO understand what socialism really is, I'll retract label. Pure socialism is a bad thing. It has never worked and never will work.

    And no, I don't believe in unfettered capitalism any more than I believe in anarchy so please do not describe me in that way. I have never advocated unrestricted capitalism. Human nature being what it is, there will always be a need for a degree of regulation, just as there is a need for laws against murder and robbery.

    Most small business owners just pay their taxes, work hard, make money and move on without talking about a revolution.
    That's because they know the NSA is listening in.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Like I said, calling a giraffe a zebra doesn't make it a zebra.

      Statism | Definition of statism by Merriam-Webster



      Dictionary.com defines it a little differently Statism | Define Statism at Dictionary.com :



      If that doesn't fit you guys to a T, I don't know what does.

      This guy described it pretty well http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/statism-socialism:


      As I actually DO understand what socialism really is, I'll retract label. Pure socialism is a bad thing. It has never worked and never will work.

      And no, I don't believe in unfettered capitalism any more than I believe in anarchy so please do not describe me in that way. I have never advocated unrestricted capitalism.

      Human nature being what it is, there will always be a need for a degree of regulation, just as there is a need for laws against murder and robbery.



      That's because they know the NSA is listening in.

      So you don't believe in UNfettered cap right?

      Good.

      Now, we simply have an disagreement on how, how much and when the feds should be involved in right?

      Regarding statism , I don't want the feds to own any businesses but I am in favor of the feds and/or the states - regulating just about anything and everything that moves - especially when it comes to commercial activities.

      And I'm also in favor of national initiatives etc., because I don't like the idea of this nation floating aimlessly through time and space and large corps setting the agenda - which can't be good and is no way to run a country - but I suspect you feel differently.

      But you can keep calling me whatever you like as long as we have the understanding that your economic philosophy has been an unmitigated disaster for the American middle class.
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      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    What's stopping this from being the next logical (?) headline you see, re: the "Greek economy problem?"

    >>> New Austerity Measure: All Greek Citizens To Be Implanted With "Anit-Fraud" RF Chips.
    -- Will Save Gov't Billions By Eliminating "Entitlement Abuse." <<<


    New law to take effect on June 6, at 6am. Official spokesperson says, "Our studies show this is the most efficient way of dealing with the thousands of Greek citizens who are illegally gaming the system for their own personal benefit -- the so-called Greek 1%-ers."

    __________________________________________

    It seems there are some on this thread who would see that as a perfectly reasonable step to take, if it truly does save that much money in "entitlement abuse," and stops the "evil" people who are gaming the system.

    Also, there's no way any citizen can complain about the new measure, cuz they have already given control of all the "dials" to the gov't.

    And, if a citizen DID object to having a chip implanted in them, how would they go about NOT having it implanted?

    Like I keep saying -- happens THE SAME WAY every time. The servant becomes the master.
    The trick is to "see it coming" -- and stop it -- before it's too late.

    -- TW

    PS: Now, I'm sure (I hope!) we'll never see this headline -- but my point still stands -- there's NOTHING STOPPING this from becoming a real measure they take -- because in the case of Greece, the servant has become the master.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    9 basic concepts Americans fail to grasp - Salon.com

    It should read too many Americans fail to grasp.
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Why insist on using a thread about GREECE to promote your US POLITICAL viewpoint?

      Why do mods allow you to do it - and not others?
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Why insist on using a thread about GREECE to promote your US POLITICAL viewpoint?

        Why do mods allow you to do it - and not others?
        Why don't you give them a call?
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        "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Nope - I've never been one to report threads because I didn't agree - I only reported rule violations.

          I seldom even report those now - because the rules seem to be different for different people now.
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Why insist on using a thread about GREECE to promote your US POLITICAL viewpoint?

        Why do mods allow you to do it - and not others?
        Umm, because he's sitting in a chair in America.
        It could very well be that good solutions can come from viewing the problem from an American's perspective -- or an African's perspective, etc.

        Should the thread say, "Only Greeks Allowed?"

        -- TW
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      It should read too many Americans fail to grasp.
      Thanks for the evening's entertainment
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      The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

      Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    I don't have a political agenda.
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    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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