Did this guy just solve the world's energy problems?

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Elon Musk envisions a world where power comes from the sun and is stored in batteries. Impossible? Watch this:


http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/1/852...-battery-feels

Even better? He's making many of the patents open source so others can make the factories, solar panels, and batteries.
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    He's an impressive guy & obviously hell bent on pushing electric in order to sell his cars (which are really nice cars).

    The problem with his presentation & idea (right now) is, he's misleading.

    He didn't once mention the average cost of solar panels for a home that's connected to his $3,500 battery pack. I have no doubts a complete system is well over $10,000 for a small/average size US home.

    He's also not realistic about the average US family budget. He won't be selling very many units unless he can bring the total cost of the solar panels + battery pack down to less than $200 per month (average small US home monthly electric bill) instead of a lump sum of +$10,000.

    He can't compete with monthly electric bills, unless he finances at the same or lower price of average monthly electric bills.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      He's an impressive guy & obviously hell bent on pushing electric in order to sell his cars (which are really nice cars).

      The problem with his presentation & idea (right now) is, he's misleading.

      He's not misleading at all, he's announcing the concept of his Gigafactory in Nevada and not really discussing solar energy as a whole.

      He didn't once mention the average cost of solar panels for a home that's connected to his $3,500 battery pack. I have no doubts a complete system is well over $10,000 for a small/average size US home.

      He's also not realistic about the average US family budget. He won't be selling very many units unless he can bring the total cost of the solar panels + battery pack down to less than $200 per month (average small US home monthly electric bill) instead of a lump sum of +$10,000.

      He can't compete with monthly electric bills, unless he finances at the same or lower price of average monthly electric bills.
      Actually, Tesla owns a solor energy company too. I can't remember the name off the top of my head right now...


      What they do is install solar systems on homes with no start up costs. Then the home owners pay for the electricity they use every month, just like any other energy company, except the solar bills are cheaper.


      And these energy bills will become even cheaper in the future since fuel needed to run traditional energy plants (coal, oil, etc) will increase and energy costs tend to rise faster than normal inflation. However, the cost of the Sun will remain constant (free). We need to factor in that traditional energy will likely double in 10 years and double again 10 years after that. In 20 years it's likely that the $200 a month cost Yukon posted will be $800 a month in 20 years.


      Solar cells tend to last 20-25 years or longer, so the prices will look even better in the future.


      Also, take into account homes that are off the grid. If a power line is even on the street/road in front of the home, it could cost $10,000 just to run a line to the home. Again, this is even if there's power available "near by". Then, you still need to pay for electricity every month. You can install a solar system for about the same price and not have to pay a monthly bill.


      However, none of this is really the point of the video above. The Tesla Gigabattery factory is HUGE and many investors believe the factory is the most important part of Tesla financially, not the cars or the solar micro energy company.


      The Gigabattery factory will allow industrial sized banks of batteries that large solar energy companies will be able to use so that they can store electricity for days on end, in case there's no sun, bad weather, etc. Then they can send the electricity to the grid whenever it's needed, rain or shine.


      The Gigabattery Factory isn't really just about individual homes, although the batteries can be used for that. It's much, MUCH bigger than that.
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        He's not misleading at all, he's announcing the concept of his Gigafactory in Nevada and not really discussing solar energy as a whole.
        He's misleading.

        If I tell you I have a car for sale for $3,500 that will save the planet & no where in the presentation tell you the wheels/tires cost $10,000, you're being mislead because the car is useless without wheels/tires.

        His battery is useless without solar panels ($10,000).

        BTW, his presentation was about solar panels (as a whole), he just wasn't upfront about the cost of solar panels which no doubt cost 2 to 3 times more than his battery.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          He's misleading.

          If I tell you I have a car for sale for $3,500 that will save the planet & no where in the presentation tell you the wheels/tires cost $10,000, you're being mislead because the car is useless without wheels/tires.
          Whatever you want to think. Yeah, a guy that gives away his patents to the public domain so everyone can benefit is a person that isn't trustworthy.


          But nice strawman fallacy. He told you the price of the batteries and never tried to sell anyone panels.


          He actually will install solar panels on your home for free, if your home gets enough sun. Just pay him less than your already paying for electricity. I guess you missed that part of my post.


          It's also non-sequitor to say because something wasn't included that it's "misleading". It's not.


          I'm not going to argue with you and trash this thread. Nothing will change your mind. You're the one that's misleading.
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          • Profile picture of the author yukon
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Whatever you want to think. Yeah, a guy that gives away his patents to the public domain so everyone can benefit is a person that isn't trustworthy.


            But nice strawman fallacy. He told you the price of the batteries and never tried to sell anyone panels.


            He actually will install solar panels on your home for free, if your home gets enough sun. Just pay him less than your already paying for electricity. I guess you missed that part of my post.


            It's also non-sequitor to say because something wasn't included that it's "misleading". It's not.


            I'm not going to argue with you and trash this thread. Nothing will change your mind.
            Keep on being naive.

            Doesn't matter because he still priced himself out of the average US family budget.

            Meanwhile everyone is paying coal burning power plants small monthly payments. He thinks he's competing with fossil fuels when in reality he's competing with affordability.

            You're right, nothing will change my mind, I usually see through misleading sales pitches.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              Keep on being naive.

              Doesn't matter because he still priced himself out of the average US family budget.

              Meanwhile everyone is paying coal burning power plants small monthly payments.

              You're right, nothing will change my mind, I usually see through misleading sales pitches.


              With Sun City, they do an audit on your home. If you get enough sun, they install panels and batteries and invertors, etc. FOR FREE!!!!! Got it??? FREEEEEE!!!


              Free means you don't pay. Nada. Nothing. Nil. Zero. Goose egg.


              Then you pay a smaller monthly payment than you do with coal.


              Let me repeat FOR FREE. Then you pay LESS per month than with coal.


              If your coal that poisons my air is cheaper after the audit, they don't install their system.


              But I'll play along using your own math and conservative figures for solar.


              Solar panels last for 20 years. That's 240 months. Still with me?


              $15,000 cost Includes panels, batteries, etc.


              $15000
              / 240 month
              ----------------
              $62.50 a month


              Looks like a great investment to me, even if your $200 a month figure remains the same for the next 20 years and will never go up. I'm sure you believe that too.


              And, this ROI doesn't include the increase in equity in your home. Nor does the $15,000 include any federal or state incentives. Or even a grid tie so you can sell electricity back to the grid, if your area allows it, and would likely fall into a $15,000 budget.


              OK, not every home owner can afford solar panels. That's why Solar City installs them for FREE. Remember FREE?


              But I realize that facts and reality will not change your mind.
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            • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
              Originally Posted by yukon View Post

              Doesn't matter because he still priced himself out of the average US family budget.
              His target is NOT the average family. They couldn't build enough fast enough. Like most newer products it is priced so they keep getting enough orders to steadily increase manufacturing. Then in time they may also find ways to lower the price or start offering payment plans or leasing arrangements.

              There are millions of families and small businesses in the U.S. alone that can afford it right now.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

                His target is NOT the average family. They couldn't build enough fast enough. Like most newer products it is priced so they keep getting enough orders to steadily increase manufacturing. Then in time they may also find ways to lower the price or start offering payment plans or leasing arrangements.

                There are millions of families and small businesses in the U.S. alone that can afford it right now.
                Yep, and as I posted above, and Musk pointed out, they can be daisy-chained for virtually unlimited storage of electricity. These banks of batteries will be used on an industrial scale for solar energy companies to supply electricity to the grid.


                Yes, Musk will sell you a battery for your home solar energy system. But his main goal is to sell to huge solar energy providers. Believing his main goal is to sell solar panels to homes is thinking WAAAAY smaller than Musk thinks.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            I'm not going to argue with you and trash this thread. Nothing will change your mind. You're the one that's misleading.
            I can't see the big deal of Yukon pointing out the cost of the panels that were left out of the presentation. Its a perfectly legit point to raise. You seem to be getting all afluff and hysterical just because not everyone falls over in awe.

            Hardly the high emotional IQ you profess yourself to have

            P.S. yes someone can be misleading and be trustworthy in general. It need not be intentional.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              I can't see the big deal of Yukon pointing out the cost of the panels that were left out of the presentation. Its a perfectly legit point to raise You seem to be getting all afluff just because not everyone falls over in awe.

              Hardly high emotional IQ you profess yourself to have :smilies_rolle yes:

              P.S. yes someone can be misleading and be trustworthy in general. It need not be intentional
              Musk isn't misleading because he doesn't sell solar panels and this presentation was about his batteries. It simply isn't logical to conclude that because a presentation wasn't complete in your mind, that it was misleading.


              Misleading would be if he said something like you can power your home only using his battery. Using your and Yukon's "logic", any discussion of which type of battery is best for cell phones is misleading because it didn't include the cost of cell phone service.


              It's non sequitur to say that I am "all afluff just because not everyone falls over in awe". I'm "all affluff" because Musk's presentation was called "misleading".


              I actually have some doubts about the Gigafactory. The main one is, Musk is creating lithium batteries, which could be obsolete rather soon. But you can assume (wrongly) that I'm all affluff. What I am impressed with, is Musk's vision as well as giving much of his tech to the public domain. Lithium batteries? Maybe not so much.


              And another straw man from you Mr. Logic. I never "professed" anything about my own emotional IQ. I simply said your emotional IQ is equal to a plant. I based my point on the fact that you can't disagree with someone without insulting them and simply can't help yourself from using phrases like "all affluff". You just can't help yourself.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                Misleading would be if he said something like you can power your home only using his battery.
                Misleading is when you say something that tends to make people believe something that is not true. The end. It doesn't require you be untrustworthy. It can even be a mistake. Dictionary meaning lessons over for the day..

                If you state only the cost of the battery it can be misleading. I don't agree with Yukon that its sales pitch but I see his point on misleading

                Musk isn't misleading because he doesn't sell solar panels and this presentation was about his batteries.
                He was not just selling his battery. He made it very clear that he was presenting a solution to dependence on fossil fuels by utilizing the sun. He makes that extremely clear which is doubly why Yukon is quite within reason to mention solar panels needed for such.

                I like Musk and his ideas and he is on to something but Yukon has a point on the panels and your trying to bash him for raising that issue was illogical.

                And another straw man from you Mr. Logic. I never "professed" anything about my own emotional IQ. I simply said your emotional IQ is equal to a plant. I based my point on the fact that you can't disagree with someone without insulting them and simply can't help yourself from using phrases like "all affluff". You just can't help yourself.
                Given that you are getting all excited and attacking Yukon and now me over his posts I guess I can begin calling you Mr Pot calling the Kettle black (Mr PCKB for short). I said you were all afluff because you are even in your last post. take the blood pressure pills

                By the way if the Sun City you keep talking about is the same as Solar City probably the most misleading person has been you. A loan is not being given solar Panels for FREE FREE . Its a loan (the last time I financed a car purchase I didn't scream for free! free! driving off the lot) and again if you are referring to Solar City and not a separate Sun City the payment agreement requires a 30% balloon payment within a year or less after installation.

                However maybe you are talking about some other program as Sun City. dunno
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                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                  Misleading is when you say something that tends to make people believe something that is not true. The end. It doesn't require you be untrustworthy. It can even be a mistake. Dictionary meaning lessons over for the day..
                  At best, it was "incomplete", not "misleading. The cause of any misunderstanding is with the purpose of the presentation, not what was included or excluded in it.

                  If you state only the cost of the battery it can be misleading. I don't agree with Yukon that its sales pitch but I see his point on misleading
                  I don't see his point. That's my point. You already said your point. Maybe if we both repeat our points a few more times it will make our points stronger.


                  I'll start: It was a presentation about the Gigafactory and batteries. For Musk to give details about solar panel costs would be misleading, as there are too many variables. Why assume it was only about home solar systems when he was also discussing "gigaplants"?


                  One such variable is that solar panels are not the most efficient means of getting energy from the sun on a industrial level. Solar troughs and parabolic dishes are the most efficient. Isn't leaving this out also misleading?


                  Shouldn't Musk also included the costs of wind turbines? Wind is often left out of renewable energy discussions and it shouldn't be. Why not complain about Musk not including wind as being misleading?

                  Given that you are getting all excited and attacking Yukon and now me over his posts I guess I can begin calling you Mr Pot calling the Kettle black (Mr PCKB for short). I said you were all afluff because you are even in your last post. take the blood pressure pills
                  My first response to Yukon had zero insults. Your first post directed at me included insults. I hadn't made any comments to you up to that point.


                  Yes, I did use insults after you insulted me. I wish I was a better person and it's something I've gotten better at over the years, but still a weakness of mine.


                  My blood pressure is great. It was even good when I used to smoke 3 1/2 packs a day many years ago. But thanks for caring.


                  You said this:


                  You seem to be getting all afluff just because not everyone falls over in awe.
                  Then you said this:
                  I said you were all afluff because you are even in your last post. .
                  If you don't even know why you said something, don't expect me to know. I took you at your word.

                  By the way if the Sun City you keep talking about is the same as Solar City probably the most misleading person has been you. A loan is not being given solar Panels for FREE FREE . Its a loan (the last time I financed a car purchase I didn't scream for free! free! driving off the lot) and again if you are referring to Solar City and not a separate Sun City the payment agreement requires a 30% balloon payment within a year or less after installation...
                  I stand corrected. However, my mistake doesn't change the fact that Musk was talking about batteries and ONLY batteries. He did mention solar, but it wasn't in the context you and Yukon make it out to be.


                  My use of "free" is that it doesn't cost money to set up. After that, there's savings on your monthly bill, although you are technically correct, the "intent" of my comment was no money upfront.

                  And if you insist on a discussion of solar power, panels is only one part. Musk would also need to include parabolic troughs and dishes, as well as things like super salts, etc. Should he quote a price for every possible industrial project?

                  BTW, what's the amount of the 30% balloon payment? Not telling us is misleading. 30% of a dollar? 30% of a million?


                  And yes, if there is a balloon payment, it would make my comments incorrect.

                  However maybe you are talking about some other program as Sun City. dunno
                  Yep, Solar City. As I said above I couldn't remember the name off hand and even though Janice reminded me, I have problems with the name for some reason.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


                    BTW, what's the amount of the 30% balloon payment? Not telling us is misleading. 30% of a dollar? 30% of a million?
                    LOL... thats just so incredibly silly Kurt. You have been arguing against Yukon calling the presentation misleading for completely leaving out the cost of the panels but i am misleading because I didn't state a set dollar amount?

                    Hold on to your hat.....I couldn't its based on what you order. and they say the same thing

                    "A solar power system is customized for your home, so pricing and savings vary based on location,system size"


                    And yes, if there is a balloon payment
                    I can only go by what they say themselves......

                    How Much Do Solar Panels Cost? - Solar Energy Cost | SolarCity

                    right column details. How much they follow that i have no idea.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                      LOL... thats just so incredibly silly Kurt. You have been arguing against Yukon calling the presentation misleading for completely leaving out the cost of the panels but i am misleading because I didn't state a set dollar amount?
                      Actually, you and I have been arguing too.


                      Again, anything you don't agree with is "silly". You HAVE TO insult the comments of others. You can't NOT do it.


                      But you don't have an exact number, correct? And that's my point. There isn't one. And neither is there a specific number for Musk and solar panels.


                      My purpose wasn't to make you come up with a number. It was for you to admit there wasn't a specific number.

                      Hold on to your hat.....I couldn't its based on what you order. and they say the same thing

                      "A solar power system is customized for your home, so pricing and savings vary based on location,system size"
                      Thanks again for making my point. And if you can't, and they can't, Musk can't either.


                      But Yukon did He said a system is $10,000. Even though there are too many variables to pick a specific number, and Yukon did, I don't believe his number is "misleading", only incomplete.


                      We have a different opinion. And you can't accept that. Everyone must think just like you or they are "silly" or "nonsense" or using "spin", among the many adjectives you use when you disagree with someone.


                      Let me give you some advice...calling other people stupid doesn't make you smarter.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                        My purpose wasn't to make you come up with a number. It was for you to admit there wasn't a specific number.
                        Nope....... your purpose now is to spin yourself out of the huge blunder of calling a system free when you have to pay 30% in a balloon payment within a year or less (you can go argue against their own website - financed never means free anyway). You didn't know that and now want to handwave yourself to some other point to save face.

                        Thanks again for making my point. And if you can't, and they can't, Musk can't either.
                        only he did. he specified the battery price even though it varies. another point of yours down the drain


                        We have a different opinion. And you can't accept that
                        you mean like you couldn't accept yukons? You gave you got back and as usual just start whining about what you call personal attacks only when you get back better than you received. Not a grown up way of handling things for someone who talks about emotional IQ


                        Its a good thread that needs to get back to its core and you are boring me as you always end up doing...I bid you farewell
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                          Nope....... your purpose now is to spin yourself out of the huge blunder of calling a system free when you have to pay 30% in a balloon payment within a year or less (you can go argue against their own website - financed never means free anyway). You didn't know that and now want to handwave yourself to some other point to save face.



                          only he did. he specified the battery price even though it varies. another point of yours down the drain




                          you mean like you couldn't accept yukons? You gave you got back and as usual just start whining about what you call personal attacks only when you get back better than you received. Not a grown up way of handling things for someone who talks about emotional IQ


                          Its a good thread that needs to get back to its core and you are boring me as you always end up doing...I bid you farewell
                          Always personal. You just can't help it. You always try to turn it around to the other person.


                          This quote is a perfect example of how clueless you really are:
                          your purpose now is to spin yourself out of the huge blunder of calling a system free when you have to pay 30% in a balloon payment within a year or less

                          There's a major problem with your "spin" theory. I admitted if there is a balloon payment, I was wrong, something that's impossible for you. And if I admitted I was wrong, there's no reason for me to spin or to save face. I "saved face" by being honest. Try it sometime.


                          If it makes you feel better to pretend I didn't play you, go ahead. Just remember, I'm the only one that really knows the truth. It takes a massive ego to say you know what I think better than I do. You "think" I'm spinning. I know I played you to prove my point, and you did perfectly. Thank you.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                            There's a major problem with your "spin" theory. I admitted if there is a balloon payment, I was wrong, something that's impossible for you. And if I admitted I was wrong, there's no reason for me to spin or to save face....... I know I played you to prove my point
                            rofl.....Oh good night.Why did I come back in here to read what I knew would be drivel? Kurt thats EXACTLY how people attempt to save face. Your attempt is like a poster for it. They blunder, get egg on their face,know it and then try to compensate/handwave elsewhere by trying to put some on someone else'....in this case the perfectly juvenile 9 year old claim ...duh err..I played you (Seriously? You couldn't come up with something more grown up?).

                            lol...only in the basement. How you people think down here is better than the top floor is in itself telling.

                            You proved no point. Musk as clear as day specified d a price in the video for the battery realizing there was a range even just on that. He could just as well have done the same for the solar panels. Once he named the price for the battery he could have named a price for the solar panels or stated a range "As low as" . He did in fact specify a price and thats exactly why your - you specified no price so thats my point is just such a rank silly argument. Even when there is a range any company can tell you the absolute minimum but you never asked that.

                            But look there are people in certain establishments that swear they know they are Elvis or even God - even that they were the ones that discovered the laws of motion and nothing can convince them otherwise so you go right ahead knowing you played me....lol...may you have many more illusions that make you smile.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Down our street in Conroe a man just has solar panels on his roof (one side) which were professionally installed about ten years back. The true cost then was $15.000 but at the time Texas was subsidising installations so he only paid $5000.00. He is completely off the grid in terms of paying aside from feeding some power back into it and gets a small payment from the energy company.

                        Yes, we get good sun in TX but so do a lot of places in the US.

                        Solar panels get cheaper every year (like flat panels tv's did, the more you mass produce, the cheaper they get) and more efficient. Even bendable ones are soon to be available so you will be able wrap them around anything, put them anywhere. Not even talking about this battery tech to store energy.

                        Yes, initial outlays can cost a bit still, but long term, the savings will be phenomenal.

                        What emerges from what I am seeing is that it will be a combination of different green technologies that will keep the lights on after the coal, gas and oil runs out in about 100 years. All working together. This battery tech is just part of what will emerge, what must emerge.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            My first response to Yukon had zero insults. Your first post directed at me included insults.
            Kurt as usual you are just full of nonsense and spin. I know exactly why I said what I said. You were clearly agitated responding to Yukon


            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            nice strawman fallacy.
            I guess you missed that part of my post.
            Nothing will change your mind. You're the one that's misleading.
            testy testy

            so I said you were. no apologies. If thats a personal attack then saying "you are the one that is misleading "in the same post where you equate misleading to being untrustworthy and claiming Yukon was obstinate (noting will change your mind) was an attack on Yukon

            However, my mistake doesn't change the fact that Musk was talking about batteries and ONLY batteries. He did mention solar, but it wasn't in the context you and Yukon make it out to be.
            He says it right up front at the beginning of his presentation - that the sun is the most logical solution to energy problems. The entire first part of presentation is regarding that and transforming from dependency on fossil fuels. It provides the context for the entire presentation. It was not by a long shot only about the batteries. As a matter of fact he went far less into the battery technology than I expected.

            anyway I am for anyone that reduces the price of going solar and if his manufacturing process ends up doing that then great. I however think the technology that will be really worthy of claiming to have solved the energy problem won't be in regard to storage o f the energy but reducing the costs dramatically at the source - best option at the moment being the solar panels.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Kurt as usual you are just full of nonsense and spin. You were clearly agitated responding to yukon

              So what if I was? You are too, you just can't admit it. Plus, yet another example of how you just can't help yourself not insulting others. It's beyond your capabilities. You simply have to insult others you disagree with and any comment that you don't like is "nonsense and spin".

              so I said you were. no apologies.

              I agree. I see no reason why I should apologize to you by responding to you in the same tone you started our conversation.


              But you changing what you said isn't "spin or nonsense" because it's you. You don't do those things.


              If thats a personal attack then saying "you are the one that is misleading "in the same post where you equate misleading to being untrustworthy was an attack on Yukon
              Didn't you say I was the most misleading one on this thread? So your point is, you find fault with me when you do the same thing. Speaking of more of your nonsense and spin. You just can't have a conversation without getting personal. It's impossible for you. Maybe sometimes I'm not "testy" and just like making you prove this point over and over.

              He says it right up front at the beginning of his presentation - that the sun is the most logical solution to energy problems.

              Yep. But why not complain that this was misleading since he didn't mention wind as well? His batteries can be used with wind power too. And it many ways, wind is as good or better than solar.


              The entire first part of presentation is regarding that and transforming from dependency on fossil fuels. It provides the context for the entire presentation. It was not by a long shot only about the batteries. As a matter of fact he went far less into the battery technology than I expected.
              Let's not confuse an intro with context. Yes, the sun can create energy which can be stored in batteries. But when discussing industrial solar plants, don't assume he's only thinking about panels. I left out something called "super cells" above, which combines solar cells and parabolic dishes.

              [/QUOTE]
              anyway I am for anyone that reduces the price of going solar and if his manufacturing process ends up doing that then great. I however think the technology that will be really worthy of claiming to have solved the energy problem won't be in regard to storage o f the energy but reducing the costs dramatically at the source - best option at the moment being the solar panels.[/QUOTE]
              No. Solar panels are the best option for homes. Parabolic troughs and dishes, along with super cells are the best, cheapest and most efficient options.


              I'm not exact, but I believe panels are about 12% efficient and parabolic dishes are about twice that. Parabolic dishes and troughs concentrate the Sun's infrared heat on "super salts" which in turn heat water to steam that drive turbines to produce electricity. This is the best option on an industrial level.


              Storage of electricity is a MAJOR factor in renewable energy. We still need electricity when there's no wind or sun. If Musk is successful, it will be a huge breakthrough for renewable energy. However, the real question is if lithium batteries are the best option or will other types of batteries be better?
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        • Profile picture of the author rondo
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          His battery is useless without solar panels ($10,000).
          No it's not. It's a rechargeable battery for your home, and solar energy storage is just one use for it.
          You can also charge it from the grid overnight (off-peak) and use it during the day to save on your power bill costs, or you could use it just for emergency power backup.

          Andrew
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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            No, but he got close!

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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by rondo View Post

            No it's not. It's a rechargeable battery for your home, and solar energy storage is just one use for it.
            You can also charge it from the grid at night (off-peak) and use it during the day to save on your power bill costs, or you could use it just for emergency power backup.

            Andrew
            I think Yukon was talking about the goals stated in the presentation and from the start to the finish, where he talks about open open sourcing, the goal presented is to get away from fossil fuel. You need the panels for that as the sun as he stated in the presentation is the most logical way to go as a solution.

            The only way Yukon's statements are off is if it were true that the panels were being given away FREE , FREE but that has not panned out as the truth.

            storing off the power grid though will see some people in hurricane areas installing them. I know I would have thought about it just for that when I lived close to hurricane alley
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      • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Actually, Tesla owns a solor energy company too. I can't remember the name off the top of my head right now...
        Elon Musk is chairman of SolarCity. He presented the concept to two of his cousins and helped them start it. He is the founder and CEO of SpaceX, and a cofounder of PayPal, Tesla Motors and Zip2.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Janice Sperry View Post

          Elon Musk is chairman of SolarCity. He presented the concept to two of his cousins and helped them start it. He is the founder and CEO of SpaceX, and a cofounder of PayPal, Tesla Motors and Zip2.
          Thanks Janice...Yep SolarCity is the one. And it has zero upfront costs for solar panels, which means the cost of batteries and panels is totally irrelevant.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Thanks Janice...Yep SolarCity is the one. And it has zero upfront costs for solar panels, which means the cost of batteries and panels is totally irrelevant.
            Last year I had Solar City evaluate my house. They sat and crunched the numbers, etc. The reason they have no up front costs (here in NY anyway) is because they get to keep the tax incentives given by the state to you as a homeowner for going solar. Which I have no issue with. But that's not 'really' free. Just no large out of pocket expense. You also have to commit to a 20 year payment plan. Which means if I want to sell my house after 10, the new owners need to take over that commitment.

            But the reason(s) I opted against it (for now) is between the monthly fee they'd get from me (which IS a bit smaller than my current electric bill) is only part of what you pay. You still have to pay the electric company for when the solar doesn't generate enough power and you have to use the grid power. Which actually means 2 monthly electric bills,

            So in the end, between the (now) 2 monthly electric bills, the savings were minimal at best - and that depends upon weather factors. The more sunny days, the cheaper the electric company part of the bill, but there's no way to predict outside of calculating the averages for our area. So in theory, I could end up paying more in some months.

            But frankly, if his battery packs work as well as he proclaims, I may rethink the solar idea...

            Time will tell.

            Oh - and the other reason I decided against it is the sales guy - he was misleading. While he sat in our house, he totally miscalculated our KWH charges because he rolled in the cost of the gas portion of our bill - so it made it LOOK like we saved way more than we actually would have. We pointed this out and he fixed the calculation, but when we go the "official" package from Solar City, those inflated numbers were right back in there.

            So, when he called and I told him we decided against it, he got flippant, said we wasted his resources and hung up on me.

            Kinda left a sour taste...
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

              Last year I had Solar City evaluate my house. They sat and crunched the numbers, etc. The reason they have no up front costs (here in NY anyway) is because they get to keep the tax incentives given by the state to you as a homeowner for going solar. Which I have no issue with. But that's not 'really' free. Just no large out of pocket expense. You also have to commit to a 20 year payment plan. Which means if I want to sell my house after 10, the new owners need to take over that commitment.

              But the reason(s) I opted against it (for now) is between the monthly fee they'd get from me (which IS a bit smaller than my current electric bill) is only part of what you pay. You still have to pay the electric company for when the solar doesn't generate enough power and you have to use the grid power. Which actually means 2 monthly electric bills,

              So in the end, between the (now) 2 monthly electric bills, the savings were minimal at best - and that depends upon weather factors. The more sunny days, the cheaper the electric company part of the bill, but there's no way to predict outside of calculating the averages for our area. So in theory, I could end up paying more in some months.

              But frankly, if his battery packs work as well as he proclaims, I may rethink the solar idea...

              Time will tell.

              Oh - and the other reason I decided against it is the sales guy - he was misleading. While he sat in our house, he totally miscalculated our KWH charges because he rolled in the cost of the gas portion of our bill - so it made it LOOK like we saved way more than we actually would have. We pointed this out and he fixed the calculation, but when we go the "official" package from Solar City, those inflated numbers were right back in there.

              So, when he called and I told him we decided against it, he got flippant, said we wasted his resources and hung up on me.

              Kinda left a sour taste...

              You're probably not the best candidate for solar. First because of your region and also because of using gas too. I've checked out solar maps for your area and you just don't get near the sun the West gets. Also, out west fewer homes use gas. than back East.


              I also agree miscalculating the impact gas has on your energy bill is also misleading, worse if it was intentional.



              When they did the audit, did you and them also consider the future cost of electricity? Wouldn't the solar costs remain constant?
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                You're probably not the best candidate for solar. First because of your region and also because of using gas too. I've checked out solar maps for your area and you just don't get near the sun the West gets. Also, out west fewer homes use gas. than back East.


                I also agree miscalculating the impact gas has on your energy bill is also misleading, worse if it was intentional.



                When they did the audit, did you and them also consider the future cost of electricity? Wouldn't the solar costs remain constant?
                The location of my house in relation to daily sunshine made me a good candidate for our area...but you are right that this area in general doesn't get near the sun they do out west. And yes, gas was part of the impact, although if I ever decided to go solar, I would consider converting gas over to electric if it calculates into an overall savings.

                I believe the initial miscalculation was unintentional. I overlooked it until we got the official proposal from Solar City and saw it was calculated high again.

                And yes - they said the cost would be 13 cents per KWH for the life of the contract. But between the amount I would still need to pay for electric and gas through my electric company, the savings were hardly worth writing home about.

                But like I said, if these power wall devices work well, I can foresee making the move because then in theory, I could come off the grid all together, switch the gas to electric and only have to pay that 13 cent per KWH charge. THAT would be a significant savings. The power wall would pay for itself in under a year.

                And I also HAD to consider resale of the house. Around here, solar is not as popular as out west, and NY has only really offered these incentives and tax breaks for a few years. People here are still incredulous about solar so convincing a potential home buyer they'd have to assume a commitment for solar may actually work against us here. My wife and I want to bolt from NY after our youngest graduates from high school in about 7 years...

                I think these alternatives will keep improving and get cheaper over the years - especially compared to fossil fuel power. I can see moving to this eventually.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                  The location of my house in relation to daily sunshine made me a good candidate for our area...but you are right that this area in general doesn't get near the sun they do out west. And yes, gas was part of the impact, although if I ever decided to go solar, I would consider converting gas over to electric if it calculates into an overall savings.

                  I believe the initial miscalculation was unintentional. I overlooked it until we got the official proposal from Solar City and saw it was calculated high again.

                  And yes - they said the cost would be 13 cents per KWH for the life of the contract. But between the amount I would still need to pay for electric and gas through my electric company, the savings were hardly worth writing home about.

                  But like I said, if these power wall devices work well, I can foresee making the move because then in theory, I could come off the grid all together, switch the gas to electric and only have to pay that 13 cent per KWH charge. THAT would be a significant savings. The power wall would pay for itself in under a year.

                  And I also HAD to consider resale of the house. Around here, solar is not as popular as out west, and NY has only really offered these incentives and tax breaks for a few years. People here are still incredulous about solar so convincing a potential home buyer they'd have to assume a commitment for solar may actually work against us here. My wife and I want to bolt from NY after our youngest graduates from high school in about 7 years...

                  I think these alternatives will keep improving and get cheaper over the years - especially compared to fossil fuel power. I can see moving to this eventually.
                  Thanks Mike, I appreciate it.


                  The East and West are very different when it comes to energy. I never heard of "heating oil" growing up out West until I lived back East. My ex was from Maryland. And one of the biggest things I missed when I was East was the big, blue, sunny skies of the West. It's much more sunny out here.


                  I'm guessing the resale would really come down to the cost of electricity from the grid in the future...and this would require some speculation.


                  BTW, was there any balloon payments in the agreement?
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                    Thanks Mike, I appreciate it.


                    The East and West are very different when it comes to energy. I never heard of "heating oil" growing up out West until I lived back East. My ex was from Maryland. And one of the biggest things I missed when I was East was the big, blue, sunny skies of the West. It's much more sunny out here.


                    I'm guessing the resale would really come down to the cost of electricity from the grid in the future...and this would require some speculation.


                    BTW, was there any balloon payments in the agreement?
                    Not that I recall. But I think after 20 years of payments, there'd better NOT be a balloon payment Seriously though, I don't think there was. If I can find the package they put together for me I can confirm.

                    You know, I have been to Colorado many times over the years (through work - mostly in the Boulder area) and I always loved it. If it wasn't so far away from - well - my entire family, I would consider moving there. I actually still have a few friends out that way.

                    My wife and I want to tour certain points out west on my Harley. Maybe in a few years.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                      Not that I recall. But I think after 20 years of payments, there'd better NOT be a balloon payment Seriously though, I don't think there was. If I can find the package they put together for me I can confirm.

                      You know, I have been to Colorado many times over the years (through work - mostly in the Boulder area) and I always loved it. If it wasn't so far away from - well - my entire family, I would consider moving there. I actually still have a few friends out that way.

                      My wife and I want to tour certain points out west on my Harley.
                      Maybe in a few years.
                      Just so you know, Colorado doesn't have a helmet law. I don't recommend riding without one often, but you have to ride up one of the canyons at least once without one.


                      The worst thing that can happen is you turn out like Gary Bussey.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    BTW, you don't need solar panels to charge the batteries. You can use wind, geothermal, kinetic, etc. And this is why Musk made his battery tech open source.


    One can even use coal and AC current using an invertor and use it to charge the batteries so you have a backup that can power a home, business, web server facility, or hospital and not need generators, which are dependent on fuel which isn't optimal in an emergency....just like you charge a cell phone battery.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
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  • Profile picture of the author GreenLionNet
    The man is a genius and extremely innovative. He is also working on launching Hyperloop which will be high-speed transportation.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    NY has a helmet law but 2 of my neighboring states don't - Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I must admit though that I have never ridden without one. Even though I ride with a half helmet, it is NOT a "brain bucket" novelty helmet. It is actually DOT approved.

    But if we do get out that way I may just take your suggestion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
    Looks like he did solve the energy crisis... great find Joe. Thanks for sharing it.

    -Cam
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Around 1997 I was in the home mortgage business and sometimes dealing with off the grid
    homeowners in South Park (yes, where the TV series fictionally takes place) which is around
    Fairplay, Colorado.

    A complete professional solar installation for the average home cost around $17,000 - $25,000.
    I'm sure panels cost less now, but installation and labor is probably not. So, it's probably roughly the same or more now.

    I don't know if there are still Federal and/or State tax incentives for installing solar.

    In addition to new or supplemental power, the Powerwall looks like a great option for someone who already has solar and wants to replace their old batteries.

    I wonder if it would reduce the amount of solar panels needed?


    >>>>>>

    Always interesting to think about impacts on the whole power/energy industry.

    There is a small dam/turbine power electric plant near where I live. It's one
    of around 70 plants in the US where the turbines reverse during off peak
    and pump water back up to the reservoir.

    We just had a customer stay at my hotel who works for a Colorado company that
    specializes building or repairing such reservoirs world wide. They were working on
    the one nearby. They built one in Missouri that is 100 feet tall, has more concrete
    than the Hoover dam, and holds 3.5 million cubic feet of water (if I recall correctly).
    It was built for a utility company. It helps keeps a nuclear plant running because
    they can never be shut down (don't ask me how that all works).

    They can drain it about overnight when they need to get more power on the grid
    and the utility makes about $1 million each time.

    I'm sure there will be industry/political resistance to the Powerwall.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    The Tesla battery plant is only about 10 miles from me the way the crow flies. Not sure what the working conditions are, but they are at least paying a minimum wage. My concern about lithium is that the US is 8th in production, so how much can we use before it comes down to dependence on trade? I would think under the circumstances (political upheaval) that we should be looking toward processes and products that keep the US self sustaining. At a time that the US is losing the petrol dollar and reserve status is crashing, it's not a good idea to develop production we can't sustain on our own if necessary.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      The Tesla battery plant is only about 10 miles from me the way the crow flies. Not sure what the working conditions are, but they are at least paying a minimum wage. My concern about lithium is that the US is 8th in production, so how much can we use before it comes down to dependence on trade? I would think under the circumstances (political upheaval) that we should be looking toward processes and products that keep the US self sustaining. At a time that the US is losing the petrol dollar and reserve status is crashing, it's not a good idea to develop production we can't sustain on our own if necessary.
      Just 100 square miles of current tech solar panels and parabolic mirrors placed in a hotspot location of the US would be enough to power the whole country. The trick was to distribute the power right across all the grids. Working on storage devices that can be moved around should be pursued with vigour and urgency in my opinion. The ultimate self sufficiency in power without the need for fracking, drilling, gas extraction etc would be a super green energy infrastructure to have and be the envy of the world. Any short term monetary considerations are irrelevant considering the price our children will have to pay.
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