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lanfear63

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0...&nlid=23048664

Enjoy. - Frank

Funny, when I type in "Claude Whitacre Family" that's what I get too.?

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by lanfear63

Funny, when I type in "Claude Whitacre Family" that's what I get too.?

Harsh. lol

Cheers. - Frank
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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0...&nlid=23048664

Enjoy. - Frank

That's funny. It's even funnier because it's just a little racist....for an app.

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

That's funny. It's even funnier because it's just a little racist....for an app.

Apps don't create themselves. :-)

Cheers. - Frank
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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

I think it's funny because people care about it.

It's an image algo., like it's ever going to be perfect.

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Zodiax 9 years ago

I read somewhere that claude's love luggage was mistaken as food.

Wonder how long Google will take to fix that one.
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I think it's funny because people care about it.

It's an image algo., like it's ever going to be perfect.

Well, it doesn't show up white people to be maggots. Google themselves were so appalled at their own algo that doesn't work well, they issued a profuse apology.

Google continued to apologize Wednesday for a flaw in Google Photos, which was released to great fanfare in May, that led the new application to mistakenly label photos of black people as "gorillas."

The company said it had fixed the problem and was working to figure out exactly how it happened.

"We're appalled and genuinely sorry that this happened," said a Google representative in an emailed statement. "We are taking immediate action to prevent this type of result from appearing."

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well, it doesn't show up white people to be maggots. Google themselves were so appalled at their own algo that doesn't work well, they issued a profuse apology.

...because white people don't usually resemble maggots or boat anchors.

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

...because white people don't usually resemble maggots.

Really? You've never lived in my world. I know people that being a maggot would mean that they had elevated their stature in life.

Cheers. - Frank
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- yukon Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  Really? You've never lived in my world. I know people that being a maggot would mean that they had elevated their stature in life.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  That's why I said usually, I knew someone would say the opposite. It would be kinda cool to see a boat anchor guy.
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

...because white people don't usually resemble maggots or boat anchors.

... and black people don't usually resemble gorillas.

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Claude Whitacre 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

... and black people don't usually resemble gorillas.

No. But the reason it's so funny to me, is because I can see an app making the mistake. Like thinking a fox is a dog. Or thinking a donkey is a horse.

We actually look quite a lot like apes. I'm surprised that other races aren't mistaken (by an app). But their (african Americans) color must be the last straw, that trips the indicator.

To me, it's the implied (unintentional) racism that makes it funnier.

If the app thought I was a sea cow, I'd think it was hilarious.
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- BigFrank Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre
  
  If the app thought I was a sea cow, I'd think it was hilarious.
  
  Well, lets be honest, now. Any ID app that saw your pic would probably return sea cow as a proper selection.
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

... and black people don't usually resemble gorillas.

Might be safer to go with, 'don't ever.'

I'm just sayin' . . . . .

Cheers. - Frank
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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

... and black people don't usually resemble gorillas.

Apparently your not familiar with image recognition.

Pattern matching shapes & colors, Google it (catch22).

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Apparently your not familiar with image recognition.

Pattern matching shapes & colors, Google it (catch22).

No, but I'm familiar with black people and never saw a black person who resembled a gorilla.

So, why doesn't Google algo think white people look like Albino gorillas?

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Claude Whitacre

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, but I'm familiar with black people and never saw a black person who resembled a gorilla.

So, why doesn't Google algo think white people look like Albino gorillas?

Intelligent question. No idea. But I wish I had thought of it.

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, but I'm familiar with black people and never saw a black person who resembled a gorilla.

So, why doesn't Google algo think white people look like Albino gorillas?

You don't know their facial recognition algo doesn't associate that image with white people.

You also don't know the entire situation. There could have been on-page text where the image was located that mentioned the keyword gorilla which would trigger an algo to associate shapes & colors with, well, gorillas.

I realize your rant is trying to prove software is perfect but that's not happening in the real world because the people that code the same software aren't perfect.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

I realize your rant is trying to prove software is perfect but that's not happening in the real world because the people that code the same software aren't perfect.

I'm not trying to prove any such thing. Software is created by people. People are fallible and it's even possible that a programmer's perceptions of what black people look like to "him" was written into the code. I'm sure it's not as simple as a keyword on the page, as Google has stated that they can't fathom how this could have happened. The photos are tagged automatically by the app based on characteristics of the photo.

As part of the new Photos app, users’ photos can be tagged and arranged automatically based on objects in the photos. For instance, pictures of skyscrapers are all arranged in an album appropriately labeled "skyscrapers." The tag feature learns as it receives more data, refining its method for recognizing and categorizing objects. The feature is flawed, but categorization isn’t the only step in photography that companies have had trouble with.

For years, Kodak used a coating on its film that favored Caucasian skin tones, making it more difficult to shoot darker skin. Nikon and other consumer camera companies have also had a history of showing bias to white faces with their facial recognition software. Zunger says that Google has had similar issues with facial recognition due to inadequate analysis of skin tones and lighting. "We used to have a problem with people (of all races) being tagged as dogs," Zunger says.

Google attempted to fix the algorithm, but ultimately removed the gorilla label altogether. Zunger noted that the company is working on longer-term fixes that revolve around which labels could be problematic and better recognition of dark-skinned faces.

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I'm not trying to prove any such thing. Software is created by people. People are fallible and it's even possible that a programmer's perceptions of what black people look like to "him" was written into the code. I'm sure it's not as simple as a keyword on the page, as Google has stated that they can't fathom how this could have happened. The photos are tagged automatically by the app based on characteristics of the photo.

Alight, I can see the only way to make my point is to simply prove how Google works.

Today is the 4th of July, I'm getting ready to leave but give me a few days & I'll show you how Google Images work, with a real example just for this thread/subject.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Alight, I can see the only way to make my point is to simply prove how Google works.

Today is the 4th of July, I'm getting ready to leave but give me a few days & I'll show you how Google Images work, with a real example just for this thread/subject.

The problem wasn't with "Google Images". It was with its new photo app. The app automatically tags the photos based on features of the photo. I already read how it works from a Google engineer. A guy submitted a photo of him and his girlfriend and it automatically labeled them as gorillas. Google has not been able to find a permanent fix for the problem, so it removed the gorilla tag. Who knows what black people will be labeled as now in the app.

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Hi Suzanne,

I don’t post much now. I appreciate you’ve never seen a black person resembling a gorilla, no worries there.

The gorilla you did post, I earlier posted and deleted very quickly a post with that gorilla in it. I didn’t want to cause a poo storm but that image made me actually try again.

There’s a white guy on a building plot at the end of my lane, he looks just like a gorilla, he’s massive, very long arms, huge hands and if he nutted you the bit above his eyes would be like a baseball bat whacking you.

He’s a white guy, looks just like a bloody ape too. Even the workers call him King Kong, 2 are black. So there we have it and I’d challenge any black/white or any person person to see this guy and say he doesn’t look like a gorilla.

Fact is, some humans do look like primates. Not blacks in particular at all, that’s not what I’m saying but I’ve seen my fair share of white folk that are not far off, often I wonder if they’d scare a gorilla off too.

Point being, this may not be a race thing…well…we make it a race thing, but maybe, religion aside, it’s an evolution primate thing?

We are all rather like primates.

My point here being - I laugh at the white gorilla and if a black person said to me, ‘he looks like a gorilla’, I’d agree. No racism at all, he simply does look like one.

We ALL resemble primates to some degree.

Maggots on the other hand….

As for Google, their bloody useless anyway.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

We ALL resemble primates to some degree.

As for Google, their bloody useless anyway.

Then the app algo should reflect that and just label everyone a primate.

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Then the app algo should reflect that and just label everyone a primate.

I did say say Google were bloody useless. Hence this error.

Just pointing out that we all do actually look like primates (too some degree anyway). As opposed to maggots.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I did say say Google were bloody useless. Hence this error.

Just pointing out that we all do actually look like primates (too some degree anyway). As opposed to maggots.

Well, I just disagree that we all look like primates. I think we've evolved a great deal from gorillas. Apparently, Google's app scoped in on broad nose, thick lips and black skin as indicators that the photo was a gorilla. This is the photo that was tagged as gorillas.

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Richard Van 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I think we've evolved a great deal from gorillas.

Yes, we have, that's why we look similar.

I appreciate this is an algo issue, I'm not saying it's right. I don't understand how these algorithms work.

No offence intended at all.
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Frank Donovan 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Fact is, some humans do look like primates..
<snip>
We are all rather like primates.

Maybe that's because we are primates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate

Personally, I rather like gorillas.

.
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- Richard Van 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan
  
  Maybe that's because we are primates.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate
  
  Personally, I rather like gorillas.
  
  .
  
  Thank you Frank. I thought the bold truth might be a bit much.
  
  Personally I prefer all other primates to humans.
  
  Especially Gorilla's.
  
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- sbucciarel Banned 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Frank Donovan
  
  Maybe that's because we are primates.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate
  
  Personally, I rather like gorillas.
  
  .
  
  ...and for that reason, Google could be correct in all instances by tagging all humans and other primates as "primates." Simple solution.
  
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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

My point here being - I laugh at the white gorilla and if a black person said to me, ‘he looks like a gorilla’, I’d agree. No racism at all, he simply does look like one.

We ALL resemble primates to some degree.
.

That wasn't Suzanne's point . She was responding to a clearly racist poster insinuating that black people look like Gorillas and why whites don't get that mix up which is the exact opposite of what you said.

As for Google...no intent . If anything its interesting to me because it shows how Google is using word associations in the public index. Most likely the mix up results from the word black being used to describe Gorilla's and African Americans

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Richard Van

9 years ago

Hi Mike.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

That wasn't Suzanne's point .

I know Mike.

I was simply making a different point. This happens when I have conversations. One likes to look at other angles, other points. Doesn’t mean I’m not listening to their point. Just pointing out other bits I was thinking at the time.

She was responding to a clearly racist poster insinuating that black people look like Gorillas and why whites don't get that mix up which is the exact opposite of what you said.

Yes she was, and quite rightly so if she feels it needs attention and yes I was pointing out the opposite of what she said, whites do get that mix up, only it's not racist, yet we all come from primates. (Whose the clear racist here? Not sure what you mean on that one. I thought this had been discussed quite well so far. Granted I don't come here as much so I'm not up to speed on any racists. I genuinely mean that too.). As I said originally,

As for Google, their bloody useless anyway.

I was just pointing out another angle, my little thoughts at the time - There is a white man at the end of my lane that looks like a gorilla, so much so everyone calls him King Kong. Including two black tradesmen.

I’m just pointing out something I realised at the time I read this.

I’m not trying to argue this Google F up is acceptable, nor have I even attempted too.

As for Google...no intent . If anything its interesting to me because it shows how Google is using word associations in the public index. Most likely the mix up results from the word black being used to describe Gorilla's and African Americans

You're the SEO dude. I suspect you're spot on there.

Edit. I see she was responding to Yukon. I'm sure you two don't see eye to eye, and that's not really something I want to be part of. I was simply joining in the chat.

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

So, why doesn't Google algo think white people look like Albino gorillas?

You swore to me that you would never, ever share that image. I am saddened. :-(

No cheer, here. - Frank
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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

...because white people don't usually resemble maggots or boat anchors.

and blacks resemble Gorilla's? Google made a mistake but I think we found our real racist.
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tsubibo

9 years ago

Lol. Waiting for lawsuit now.

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yukon

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Zodiax

I read somewhere that claude's love luggage was mistaken as food.

Wonder how long Google will take to fix that one.

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tagiscom 9 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Hmmmm, a bit of Photoshopping there l think, Claude would never take one bite out of a dunut!
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TLTheLiberator

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0...&nlid=23048664

Enjoy. - Frank

At least when they were informed about the problem, they quickly fixed it - instead of claiming it's their right to portray anyone any way they want.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

So, the Big G needs to refine the algo. Much ado about nothing.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

So, the Big G needs to refine the algo. Much ado about nothing.

They've been very quick to remove the gorilla tag so that doesn't happen again and are working on the problem with the algo.

Of course it's not a big deal, unless your family photo has been tagged as a group of gorillas and then it's not very fun.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They've been very quick to remove the gorilla tag so that doesn't happen again and are working on the problem with the algo.

Of course it's not a big deal, unless your family photo has been tagged as a group of gorillas and then it's not very fun.

I guess if you're looking for any reason to be offended, this is an awesome opportunity to be offended by a computer.

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I guess if you're looking for any reason to be offended, this is an awesome opportunity to be offended by a computer.

The computer didn't create the algo. People did. I'm not offended, but if my daughter uploaded a photo of herself with her children and it tagged it as a nice white lady with two young gorillas, I'd be offended, and I imagine she would also.

People who aren't affected by a problem often don't see it as a problem. I'm sensitive to other people's problems and feelings and I can imagine how that error made a teenage girl having fun with a guy and photos feel.

If you read the quote in this post, you would see that programmers have problems with skin tones and Zunger says Google tagged all people as dogs. At least that is uniformly incorrect and not offensive to one group of people. I'll repost the relevant part of the quote.

For years, Kodak used a coating on its film that favored Caucasian skin tones, making it more difficult to shoot darker skin. Nikon and other consumer camera companies have also had a history of showing bias to white faces with their facial recognition software. Zunger says that Google has had similar issues with facial recognition due to inadequate analysis of skin tones and lighting. "We used to have a problem with people (of all races) being tagged as dogs," Zunger says.

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alistair

9 years ago

Oh dear, that's hilarious.

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Hi im che

9 years ago

That's defo Raciste

.

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HeySal

9 years ago

So the guy says it only happens with her in the pic. Well look at her - she appears to not have a neck - which is from the long hair - so the shape is a little more gorilla than human if you go by just color outline. Then she's high or something and her eyes are very puffy and lined - look at the gorilla's eye socket area - also lined and a little sunken looking. And in the one pic - the first one, she's got her lips pursed to boot. A side view might not have registered any of that as "primate" but she didn't take a side view - it was face on and the pursing of the lips probably registered as a muzzle. Once google had her tagged - it just kept applying the same tag.

This doesn't seem to be a surprise to me at all.

As far as the white gorilla - I know a woman who could get tagged as that very easily if her pic was taken at the right angle, too.

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Dan Riffle

9 years ago

And the programmer will continue to refine the algorithm.These things are rarely perfect from the outset. If people were a little more conscious of that, again, this would be much ado about nothing .

Of course Goolge ia going to be profusely apologetic. In this day and age, it has to be. If the company responded any other way, there'd be mass hysteria .

If someone can prove intent, then you're onto something . If a programmer comes out and says, "I hate black people and I programmed this software to specifically label black people as gorillas,"then I'm right beside you . Other than that, you just have faulty code .

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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

And the programmer will continue to refine the algorithm.These things are rarely perfect from the outset. If people were a little more conscious of that, again, this would be much ado about nothing .

Of course Goolge ia going to be profusely apologetic. In this day and age, it has to be. If the company responded any other way, there'd be mass hysteria .

If someone can prove intent, then you're onto something . If a programmer comes out and says, "I hate black people and I programmed this software to specifically label black people as gorillas,"then I'm right beside you . Other than that, you just have faulty code .

I never implied that the programmers had evil intent. As for much ado about nothing, all of Off Topic and the WF in general is discussion about nothing much. It is, as George pitched in Seinfeld, a show about nothing. It shows that we all have little pockets of space of abject boredom to fill up with nothing.