The man turns 76 today

Doubtful. Bonham once said there were only two drummers in Rock, him and Baker. Bonham had his own style but really couldn't hold a candle to Baker. Bonham had a fast foot and he was a hard hitter. His signature roll was a simple four stroke role using the snare, ride, floor tom, and bass drum (in that order) sticking is RH, LH, RH, RF.
Baker didn't have a signature role, but played rudiments around the kit which is what Rich also did.
Buddy Rich also recognized Baker as an accomplished Jazz drummer (which he actually was). Rich had a very serious contempt for Rock drummers with the exception of three. Dino Danelli, Carl Palmer, and Ginger Baker.

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discrat

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Doubtful. Bonham once said there were only two drummers in Rock, him and Baker. Bonham had his own style but really couldn't hold a candle to Baker. Bonham had a fast foot and he was a hard hitter. His signature roll was a simple four stroke role using the snare, ride, floor tom, and bass drum (in that order) sticking is RH, LH, RH, RF.
Baker didn't have a signature role, but played rudiments around the kit which is what Rich also did.
Buddy Rich also recognized Baker as an accomplished Jazz drummer (which he actually was). Rich had a very serious contempt for Rock drummers with the exception of three. Dino Danelli, Carl Palmer, and Ginger Baker.

Sorry Thom, I can wholeheartedly say I completely disagree with you.On the whole , indisputably more people in the drumming community would say that Bonham was a greater influence than Ginger Baker.

Not even close

He was self taught and his technical aspects were not remarkable but pretty unreal for never have taking a Lesson. Much more so than Baker and his innovation with songs like The Crunge and Good Time Bad Times ( Double ghost stroke rolls on bass) were very impressive all things considering

And many , many other noteworthy drummers who are very accomplished would agree and say the same thing about his influence and talent.

As far as Buddy Rich versus Ginger Baker as jazz drummers. LOL

Thom, I sincerely lost a little respect for you as a serious drummer if you dare to make an idiotic
statement like that

Im busting your balls but seriously come on now. What good drugs are you taking tonight

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discrat

9 years ago

P.S. just watched the first video and very mediocre technique displayed by Baker. Very simple nothing that most medium level drummers could not do.
Very unimpressive. Sorry it just is.

Thom, you call around the 2 minute mark impressive drumming ??lol
Really ??
I could literally do that in the 4th grade when I got my first Trap set

3:30 minute mark Fast forward he is getting a little better with some Poly rhythms. But then he starts to do buffalo roll triplets between toms. bass . and snare. Come on Thom , Bonham blows his arse away with his triplets. Your losing me

5:30 minute okay Ginger starts to get into some Jazz. Again very basic stuff nothing impressive. He does keep good timing with his Hi hat I will give him that

8:45 near the end of his solo he does do some pretty good double bass licks and going around on the toms. Nothing spectacular like a Dennis Chambers but he surprised me he could do that being such a basic drummer.

Iam not saying he has bad style or a bad drummer. Its good for what it is intended for but nothing memorable and extremely basic stuff.

But it fit perfectly for a band like Cream.

I will say the complexity and richness of their Music was nowhere near the quality of Zeppelin

Bottom line : No doubt Baker was a good drummer. Not a great drummer but an accomplished one who was one third of a trio that had some really terrific music and had major influence on Rock and many bands that followed.

I am working on the second video

Sorry too boring I cannot sit thru it lol

P.P.S. Thom I hope you can appreciate the fact I am just busting your balls ( as I mentioned) from one drummer to another.

And I hope you don't take it personal. You know us drummers we can be a bunch conceded and obnoxious pr@cks

That's why many of us took up the instrument in the first place lol

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lanfear63 9 years ago

Having been a drummer I recently watched a lot of video's of the top rock guys and Buddy Rich.

I concluded that Buddy Rich was the best. Such fluency and creativity with so few drums.

My favourite rock/jazz rock drummer is Bill Bruford.

Andy Ward of Camel was also very good.
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- discrat 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by lanfear63
  
  I concluded that Buddy Rich was the best. Such fluency and creativity with so few drums.
  
  My favourite rock/jazz rock drummer is Bill Bruford.
  
  Aahhhh, a voice of reason finally makes it presence
  
  Btw, Bruford was and is incredible !!!
  
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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

P.S. just watched the first video and very mediocre technique displayed by Baker. Very simple nothing that most medium level drummers could not do.
Very unimpressive. Sorry it just is.

Thom, you call around the 2 minute mark impressive drumming ??lol
Really ??
I could literally do that in the 4th grade when I got my first Trap set

3:30 minute mark Fast forward he is getting a little better with some Poly rhythms. But then he starts to do buffalo roll triplets between toms. bass . and snare. Come on Thom , Bonham blows his arse away with his triplets. Your losing me

5:30 minute okay Ginger starts to get into some Jazz. Again very basic stuff nothing impressive. He does keep good timing with his Hi hat I will give him that

8:45 near the end of his solo he does do some pretty good double bass licks and going around on the toms. Nothing spectacular like a Dennis Chambers but he surprised me he could do that being such a basic drummer.

Iam not saying he has bad style or a bad drummer. Its good for what it is intended for but nothing memorable and extremely basic stuff.

But it fit perfectly for a band like Cream.

I will say the complexity and richness of their Music was nowhere near the quality of Zeppelin

Bottom line : No doubt Baker was a good drummer. Not a great drummer but an accomplished one who was one third of a trio that had some really terrific music and had major influence on Rock and many bands that followed.

I am working on the second video

Sorry too boring I cannot sit thru it lol

P.P.S. Thom I hope you can appreciate the fact I am just busting your balls ( as I mentioned) from one drummer to another.

And I hope you don't take it personal. You know us drummers we can be a bunch conceded and obnoxious pr@cks

That's why many of us took up the instrument in the first place lol

You do realize in the first video Ginger is 66 and has serious back problems that would sideline almost anyone else.
I'm not saying Ginger was the greatest (with all the different styles of playing I don't think anyone is) but he was extremely good at his craft.
He defiantly has been a major influence on many of the top rock drummers including Bonham, Peart, Chriss, Smith, and the list goes on.
I actually laugh when people only use his time with Cream as a basis for judging him. Here's a video of him doing a drum off with Art Blakey.

Art Blakey & Ginger Baker Drum Duo -...

This is from 92 with the Jonas Hellborg group

Ginger Baker - Jonas Hellborg Group - Budapest,...

Watch the beginning of his documentary. When someone like Micky Hart calls him the hammer of the gods, and Chad Smith calls him the greatest drummer ever, you have to take notice.

Ginger Baker Documentary - YouTube

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Kurt

9 years ago

Benny Goodman, Gene Krupa, Harry James, Lionel...

Jeff Beck - Sling Shot - YouTube

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

I could have seen Baker at an Oakland jazz club Yoshis last year but forgot. Too bad. I've seen some greats such as Max Roach, Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Jack DeJonette and many more. I wanted to see how Baker stacked up against them since he is playing mostly jazz now.

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discrat

9 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I could have seen Baker at an Oakland jazz club Yoshis last year but forgot. Too bad. I've seen some greats such as Max Roach, Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Jack DeJonette and many more. I wanted to see how Baker stacked up against them since he is playing mostly jazz now.

Nice list their, Tim.

Personally i have seen Neil Peart a few times as well as Carmen and Vinnie Appice. Went to various clinics including Joe Morello, Butch Miles, Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl, Vinnie Colaiuta

In 86' at tender age of 18 me and my two best friends ( also drummers) went to Bijou theater in Knoxville and saw Buddy Rich and his band and one of his final appearances before his death less than a year later.

It was so remarkable. just mind blowing to see Buddy play.( My friend James bootlegged an audio and still has it today)

I distinctly remember the woman a few seats down dressed up in fine dress and jewelry looked to not be a drummer( I know me being presumptuous)

But I swear when Buddy was doing that incredibly fast roll on his hi hat ( with one hand on top and other on bottom of hi hat cymbal) she made gasping noises virtually saying " WTF, how is this man able to do this insane thing. "

Me and my two friends were making the same shrills and giggles over this insanity as well

I remember thinking to myself years later that the only other person I have seen in my Life "Transcend" their craft among the masses like Buddy did was Michael Jordan.
( well, now maybe Curry as well

)

Just extraordinary event that I will never forget

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Ron Lafuddy

9 years ago

You guys got it all wrong.

Ringo Starr was/is the best. Hands down!

Ringo played drums on more hit records than any of the above mentioned drummers.

Ringo himself, wrote and co-wrote more hit songs than any of the above mentioned drummers.

Ringo himself, sold more records than any of the others mentioned.

Ringo, a left handed drummer by nature, played a right handed set, both in the
studio and for live performances. A technical feat not achieved by any of the
drummers mentioned.

Think it's easy.

You guys who claim to be players, Set your kit up for the side that isn't natural for you.

Then record it and post it online, so we can all have a laugh.

Ringo is the man!

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BigFrank Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy

Ringo Starr was/is the best. Hands down!

Somehow, I doubt that Ringo would share your views of his immense skills.

Just sayin' . . . . . .

Cheers. - Frank
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- Ron Lafuddy 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BigFrank
  
  Somehow, I doubt that Ringo would share your views of his immense skills.
  
  Just sayin' . . . . . .
  
  Cheers. - Frank
  
  But of course, he wouldn't need to. Like all the great ones...his record speaks for itself.
  
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  discrat 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy
  
  But of course, he wouldn't need to. Like all the great ones...his record speaks for itself.
  
  Ron,
  You are confusing "individual Greatness" with " Group Greatness "
  
  Its a fact that Ringo Starr was a Member of a Band that many considered as reaching Greatness.
  But he was not a highly contributing factor to the Greatness of that band.
  He really wasn't. McCartney and Lennon and to a degree Harrison made that band Great !!
  
  Thom hits it square on.
  
  As I also remember several interviews in the last 10 years with Ringo. He said he could only go around the Trap with one hand because he hadn't had the coordination to use both hands around them for a fill.
  
  This is about as rudimentary as it gets.
  
  Iam sure Thom,myself and other experienced drummers would have to agree that this feat is usually accomplished by just an average player in their very first year of playing on a drum set
  
  Baker was part of a great band, Cream. And he was a very significant contributing factor to that Greatness. Same with Bonham and Zeppelin.
  
  Ringo not so much (But I guess if you want to count being efficient at playing straight eighth notes on the hi hat and hitting the bass drum on 1 and 3 and snare on 2 and 4 on a never ending , continuous basis then I guess he was great LOL)
  
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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Lafuddy

You guys got it all wrong.

Ringo Starr was/is the best. Hands down!

Ringo played drums on more hit records than any of the above mentioned drummers.

Ringo himself, wrote and co-wrote more hit songs than any of the above mentioned drummers.

Ringo himself, sold more records than any of the others mentioned.

Ringo, a left handed drummer by nature, played a right handed set, both in the
studio and for live performances. A technical feat not achieved by any of the
drummers mentioned.

Think it's easy.

You guys who claim to be players, Set your kit up for the side that isn't natural for you.

Then record it and post it online, so we can all have a laugh.

Ringo is the man!

Actually the key to being a good drummer is being ambidextrous. Ringo has admitted he has a problem going around the drums from left to right because he tends to lead with his left hand. But that is also what gives him his unique style.
Setting up a kit the opposite of the way you normally do to "prove' you're a drummer is pretty stupid actually. If Ringo being left handed could play a left handed kit, don't you think he would?
A better challenge would be playing rudiments right and left handed or going around the drums from left to right leading with the right hand and then switching lead hands on the floor tom and going around from right to left leading with the left hand.

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

A better challenge would be playing rudiments right and left handed or going around the drums from left to right leading with the right hand and then switching lead hands on the floor tom and going around from right to left leading with the left hand.

That's precisely how I do it. :-)

Cheers. - Frank

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SteveJohnson

9 years ago

I'm sure not many people would call him the 'greatest', but I liked Jeff Porcaro's style and precision, impeccable rhythm, and his ability to play just about any genre of music.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

I'm sure not many people would call him the 'greatest', but I liked Jeff Porcaro's style and precision, impeccable rhythm, and his ability to play just about any genre of music.

The only reason I ever listened to TOTO

I think greatest is a pretty irrelevant term.
To me it's more about being the right drummer for the band.
Levon Helm was incredible because he was the right drummer for The Band. Same can be said for Ringo with the Beatles, Baker with Cream, Tommy Aldridge with Black Oak Arkansas and one of my all time favorite drummers Richie Hayward with Little Feat. Buddy Guy's Damn Right, I've Got the Blues, Richie Hayward.

Mustang Sally - Buddy Guy - YouTube

Of course here's Richie with my all time favorite band Little Feat.

Fat Man in The Bathtub - Little Feat LIVE -...

Going back (more then) a few years to one of my earliest inspirations you've got Joe Morello playing with the Dave Brubeck Quartet doing Blue Rondo à la Turk. The tune is in a 9/8 time with a 4/4 swing. Joe was an absolute master of odd time signatures.

Dave Brubeck Quartet - "Blue Rondo Ã* la...

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Frank Donovan 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I think greatest is a pretty irrelevant term.
To me it's more about being the right drummer for the band.

I agree. No doubt that with the top musicians there's a lot of ego and professional pride involved, and of course we all have our personal favorites - that much is subjective. But talking about who's "best" just relegates what I believe is our highest art form to the level of a competitive sport.

Music's better than that.

.
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- ThomM 9 years ago
  
  He said he could only go around the Trap with one hand
  
  I actually do that as part of my daily practice routine 15 mins. with each hand going from left to right and back again. I start with a single hand single stroke roll in groups of 2,4,and 8 per drum then switch it to groups of 3,5,and 9. It's great for building hand speed
  I do sort of the same thing with my feet except I'll do a 1/16 note single stroke roll for one measure then do 1/16 note paradiddles for a measure and repeat for 15 mins. That's playing double bass pedals by the way.
  I said daily but that really only applies to fall, winter, and spring. In the heat of the summer I drop down to a couple days a week and play my Bodhran more.
  
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Janice Sperry

9 years ago

The first time I heard Ginger Baker was on an "underground" FM station in California. They would sometimes play bootleg live versions of concerts which was never done at that time. I remember thinking he was the best drummer I had ever heard and I did not even know his name yet.

I don't think anyone will ever agree on who is the best drummer just like they never will for the best guitarist, painter, or anything else. For me the best drummers are not just technically outstanding but they have something else.

Some percussionists are just: "banging on the bongos like a chimpanzee" (Mark Knopfler)

Ginger Baker has always been MY favorite drummer.

There are some great songs that would have never been as good without him.

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Kurt

9 years ago

How guitar players sometimes see the drummer -...

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

How guitar players sometimes see the drummer - YouTube

To boil it all down, drummers are smarter than you, more in-tune with nature than you, and are the whole reason you and I have a society in which to mock drummers in the first place. It’s official: drummers are smarter than you (and everybody else) | Consequence of Sound

So if you think that tractor is a drummer then even the tractor is smarter then most people (except other drummers)

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Good interview with Baker from a couple months ago where he talks about his influences, being called the greatest drummer ever, John Bonham, heavy metal ( Don might be interested in this one.

), Led Zep, Beatles, etc...

JC: You are a jazz drummer at heart. Name some of the greats who you have met and/or played with.

GB: I’ve played with Art Blakey, a totally unrehearsed thing in Munich in 1972. I’ve played with Elvin Jones. One of the nicest compliments I’ve ever had was from “Philly” Joe Jones when he heard me play. He said, “Man, you tell a story.” There was also playing in Nigeria and getting the whole audience on their feet!

JC: I know people here in America who consider you the best of all time.

GB: I wouldn’t quite say that. I think I’m one of them, for sure. I had my own thing, which Phil Seamen had, which Art Blakey had. When you hear them playing, you know who it is. Max Roach, “Philly” Joe Jones, Elvin Jones. It goes back to “Papa” Jo Jones and [Warren] Baby Dodds. All of these guys had a huge influence on me, but I didn’t copy them. Probably the biggest influence was Phil Seamen. He was God. He heard me play one night and said afterward, “Sit down, I want to talk to you. You’re the only drummer I know who’s got it.”

JC: You seem a little emotional discussing that.

GB: Well, I’m getting old I suppose [laughs].

Jim Clash: What is your take on heavy metal?

GB: These people that dress up in spandex trousers with all the extraordinary makeup – I find it incredibly repulsive, always have. I’ve seen where Cream is sort of held responsible for the birth of heavy metal. Well, I would definitely go for aborting [laughs]. I loathe and detest heavy metal. I think it is an abortion. A lot of these guys come up and say, “Man, you were my influence, the way you thrashed the drums.” They don’t seem to understand I was thrashing in order to hear what I was playing. It was anger, not enjoyment – and painful. I suffered on stage because of that [high amplifier] volume crap. I didn’t like it then, and like it even less now. That whole Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame thing – at least half the people in there don’t have a place in any kind of hall of fame anywhere, in my opinion.

JC: Are there bands that came from Cream’s influence you consider to be good, maybe Led Zeppelin?

GB: Jimmy’s [Page] a good player. I don’t think Led Zeppelin filled the void that Cream left, but they made a lot of money. I probably like about 5% of what they did – a couple of things were really cool. What I don’t like is the heavy bish-bash, jing-bap, jing-bash bullshit.

JC: What do you think of Zeppelin’s late drummer, John Bonham?

GB: Years ago, John said, “There are two drummers in rock and roll, Ginger Baker and me.” There’s no way John was anywhere near what I am. He wasn’t a musician. A lot of people don’t realize I studied. I can write music. I used to write big band parts in 1960, ‘61. I felt that if I was a drummer, I needed to learn to read drum music. I was so good at sight reading, a guy in one of the big bands told me to get two books. I studied them at the same time. One was about the rules of basic harmony, the other how to break them all [laughs].

JC: Are you proud of your accomplishments as a musician?

GB: Very much so. I had to play all kinds of music in order to work early on. They would stick a part in front of me, and I would have to play it. And I would have to do a bloody good job, better than any other drummer, so they wanted me the next week. We used to go down to [London’s] Archer Street, where all the musicians went [to get work]. It was part of being a musician to me, to make straight bloody dance music sound good. That is something those heavy metal guys lack. All they can do is go bish-bosh diddy-bop, bish-bosh diddy-bop. They can’t read music. Even Paul McCartney needs someone to write it down for him. And he thinks that’s good. There was an article where he said that if he learned to read music, he might not be able to write as well. We used to say about the Beatles in 1963: “They don’t know a hatchet from a crotchet.” A crotchet is what we call a quarter note.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimclash...pelin-beatles/

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BigFrank

Banned 9 years ago

I still love Gene Krupa, but this is from a guy that has always thought that Floyd Patterson was one of the greatest boxers, Citation the greatest horse of all time and Dan Fouts as the most unheralded NFL quarterback in the history of the game.

Pay no attention to me. lol

Cheers. - Frank

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I still love Gene Krupa, but this is from a guy that has always thought that Floyd Patterson was one of the greatest boxers, Citation the greatest horse of all time and Dan Fouts as the most unheralded NFL quarterback in the history of the game.

Pay no attention to me. lol

Cheers. - Frank

Sing Sing Sing is probably my favorite Big Band song and IMO Krupa's drumming makes the song. I'm not that big on things like coordination just for "show" and put more emphasis on sound and his sound for the song is amazing.

I'm not sure how anyone can take Citation over Secretariat...

But I pretty much agree with you on Patterson and Fouts, although I'd say Bert Jones is the best "most unheralded" QB as Fouts is somewhat "heralded".

As far as my favorite drummers, I really like the original drummer in Booker T and the MGs, as much for his restraint as anything else.

Booker T & the MGs - "Green Onions"...

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

I still love Gene Krupa, but this is from a guy that has always thought that Floyd Patterson was one of the greatest boxers, Citation the greatest horse of all time and Dan Fouts as the most unheralded NFL quarterback in the history of the game.

Pay no attention to me. lol

Cheers. - Frank

Krupa was a huge influence on my early playing much more so then Buddy Rich. My second drum instructor was friends of and studied under Krupa. At 15 I had the opportunity to study under Krupa in NYC. My parents didn't like the idea of me living in the city by myself at that age (not to mention there was no way we could afford it).

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Kurt

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So if you think that tractor is a drummer then even the tractor is smarter then most people (except other drummers)

Posting an amusing video doesn't mean I "think" what someone else decided to name their video, only that I like the video. But I have to admit, the tractor does keep good time.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Posting an amusing video doesn't mean I "think" what someone else decided to name their video, only that I like the video. But I have to admit, the tractor does keep good time.

And posting an amusing reply to your post doesn't mean I "think" you did.

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