Breaking now: TV crew shot dead during live interview

9 years ago

Gunman posts videos of shooting on Twitter. First vid shows taking aim on victims. Second video of actual shooting has been removed. (Warning: Video is Disturbing. Shows shooter taking aim from close range seconds before shots fired. NSFW)

Alleged WDBJ Gunman Posts Video of On-Air Shooting

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joe golfer

9 years ago

Shooter identified:

WDBJ Shooting Suspect Identified as Vester Lee Flanagan

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joe golfer

9 years ago

Suspect takes own life:
https://twitter.com/nbcwashington/st...66568449777664

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Kay King

9 years ago

Problem with "twitter news" is it's often wrong. The name of the wrong suspect was on twitter earlier - and according to Virginia news the suspect is in critical condition, not dead.

Hope he lives to go to jail!

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joe golfer

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Problem with "twitter news" is it's often wrong. The name of the wrong suspect was on twitter earlier - and according to Virginia news the suspect is in critical condition, not dead.

Hope he lives to go to jail!

Good point. Twitter is often wrong, especially Twitter from MSM who should know better.

Alleged WDBJ Gunman in Critical Condition After Shooting Himself

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MissTerraK

9 years ago

Coward!

On the one hand, I agree with Kay, I hope he lives to have to pay for his crimes and has nightmares about it for the rest of his life!

But on the other hand, I sort of don't want him to make it because the sooner he leaves the confines of his body, the sooner his soul will be tortuously dragged to Hell where he will suffer more than we on earth could ever make him forgo. And it'll last longer too.

Terra

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Doug

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Coward!

On the one hand, I agree with Kay, I hope he lives to have to pay for his crimes and has nightmares about it for the rest of his life!

But on the other hand, I sort of don't want him to make it because the sooner he leaves the confines of his body, the sooner his soul will be tortuously dragged to Hell where he will suffer more than we on earth could ever make him forgo. And it'll last longer too.

Terra

Take the lives of innocents, and then take your own so as not face the consequences.

Coward is the exact word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

I'd cuss but just had my first drink...

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Kay King 9 years ago

This suspect is disturbing because he's not much different than people we've all known.

Vester Lee Flanagan II, aka Bryce Williams, Named as Suspect in Live TV Shooting in Virginia - NBC News

One of those people who are hard to work with - take everything the wrong way - and nothing is ever their fault.
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

This happened a couple of hours drive from my place. The beautiful Smith Mountain Lake area. Unbelievable. They said disgruntled employee. I'll bet the journalists killed had nothing to do with him being disgruntled. He was fired by the station. I hope he lives so they can execute him.

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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I hope he lives so they can execute him.

I'd rather the tax payer not have to spend the money. If he is informed his Facebook and twitter sites were taken offline as he departs this life I'd be fine with it. I'd also rather his "manifesto" not see the dawn of life and wish against any reasonable chance of it happening that the media would just make this one die quick.

We do not need this fruit cake being notorious to inspire all the other fruit cakes to kill people "live" or to record it to video
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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I hope he lives so they can execute him.

Hey, when we agree, we agree!

Joe Mobley

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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

As Joe silently slips into b^stard mode...

posted an apparent justification for the shootings

was motivated by the church shootings in Charleston, South Carolina

expressed admiration for the gunmen who carried out mass shootings at Virginia Tech in 2007 and Columbine High School in 1999

sued a Florida station that had fired him, alleging racial discrimination

"He had a reputation for being difficult to work with."

Quick, let's blame this on Gun Violence!

Joe Mobley

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MissTerraK 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

As Joe silently slips into b^stard mode...

Quick, let's blame this on Gun Violence!

Joe Mobley

Gun control is being discussed as I type this.

Terra
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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

Quick, let's blame this on Gun Violence!

Well, it was gun violence. Would it be more politically correct to call it just violence?

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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

The "politically correct" would deviate from the facts and try to make the gun responsible for the violence in an effort to further their cause.

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Well, it was gun violence. Would it be more politically correct to call it just violence?

In my opinion, Mr. Flanagan was responsible for all three deaths.

Joe Mobley

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Sure, Flanagan is responsible for the deaths, but it's still gun violence. Political correctness goes both ways. "Let's not call it gun violence because that makes it sound like guns are bad." :/

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MissTerraK

9 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Sure, Flanagan is responsible for the deaths, but it's still gun violence. Political correctness goes both ways. "Let's not call it gun violence because that makes it sound like guns are bad." :/

I call it murder or double homicide, if you will.

Seriously, two innocent people have been robbed of their lives and you want to argue over semantics or methods of murder?

Yikes!

Terra

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I call it murder or double homicide, if you will.

Seriously, two innocent people have been robbed of their lives and you want to argue over semantics or methods of murder?

Yikes!

Terra

Semantics? Method of murder? Whenever there is a shooting that gets attention like this one people bring up method of murder as they did in this thread, way before I did. Including you, Terra. Yikes!

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MissTerraK

9 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Method of murder? Whenever there is a shooting that gets attention like this one people bring up method of murder as they did in this thread, way before I did. Including you, Terra. Yikes!

I may have brought bare hands and knives up, but I wasn't arguing, I was stating fact.

That was the key word in my sentence, my friend.

Ha! You said Yikes too. Did you watch Scooby Doo also? If so, the next expletive just may be Zoinks! LOL!

Terra

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I may have brought bare hands and knives up, but I wasn't arguing, I was stating fact.

That was the key word in my sentence, my friend.

Ha! You said Yikes too. Did you watch Scooby Doo also? If so, the next expletive just may be Zoinks! LOL!

Terra

I wasn't arguing either, mam. I just thought it was an odd point Joe was making.

I watched Skooby Doo. But it wasn't my favorite. The guys voice was too annoying. Ruh roh.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

The "politically correct" would deviate from the facts and try to make the gun responsible for the violence in an effort to further their cause.

Joe Mobley

They're turning into the drowning man raising his hand for the third time before he goes under for good.

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MissTerraK 9 years ago

I've never understood why everybody thinks that the "smoking gun" is the end of the investigation.

It's not!

The gun residue covered hand is!

Terra
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- discrat 9 years ago
  
  Dad of Ms. Parker wants tougher and more stricter gun laws.
  
  I think he has a point. Iam not anit-gun and Iam not Pro gun either. I have never had a gun and dont care about ever getting one.
  
  But people have a right to defend themselves particularly families.
  
  There is no doubt in my mind about that
  
  I just think we need to keep looking over the current Laws and work on a compromise to make it harder for mentally ill people tougher to get access.
  
  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/us...iams.html?_r=0
  
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  Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)
  
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sbucciarel

Banned 9 years ago

Well, he got the easy way out. He's dead now.

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butters

9 years ago

Scrolled down my feed and see an auto showing of this on my phone, so sick, didn't even want to watch it (I didn't know what it actually was till I got in). Apparently he gave ABC a manifesto on why he did it, took the cowards way out.

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johnveggy

9 years ago

Much like the Ray Rice smacking his girlfriend, it seems to require video to make people care about violent crimes. What do people think it looks like when shots are fired? (Makes the French train all the more heroic). But hey, whether it's 8 people in a church, 25 kids in kindergarten, or a reporter doing a fluff piece about tourism, I no longer get surprised when this happens. I'm just left to wonder what and when the tipping point will be that changes the majority of Americans from a pro-gun culture to an anti-gun culture, and how disturbing the pendulum over-swing will be in that direction.

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Lance K

9 years ago

Originally Posted by johnveggy

I'm just left to wonder what and when the tipping point will be that changes the majority of Americans from a pro-gun culture to an anti-gun culture, and how disturbing the pendulum over-swing will be in that direction.

Guns aren't the problem.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Guns aren't the problem,

Right after the Sandy Hook shootings The gov. of my state forced through what he calls the "safe act" (or unsafe act as we all call it) said it would end gun violence. So over the weekend a man was killed in a gun battle with two Troy cops and today another guy was arrested in the same area with a AK 47 (which looked more like it was home cobbed then a real AK). That's just in the last couple of days. Since the safe act was passed gun violence has gone up around here because the criminals know most law abiding citizens have been unarmed by the law.
You're right it's not about guns it's about people wanting to kill people. Stabbings have also gone up around here by the way. In fact a hairdresser just died from having her throat slit.

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MissTerraK

9 years ago

If guns kill people, then hammers and drills build houses, bats make home runs, pens sign loans, assembly lines build cars, computers hack corporations and microphones create hit songs.

Terra

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alistair

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

If guns kill people, then hammers and drills build houses, bats make home runs, pens sign loans, assembly lines build cars, computers hack corporations and microphones create hit songs.

Terra

Having the right tools for the job certainly make things a lot easier though.

Just another sad statistic where owning a gun didn't help anybody except the killer I guess.

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Having the right tools for the job certainly make things a lot easier though.

Just another sad statistic where owning a gun didn't help anybody except the killer I guess.

Similar result, or worse, if he just had knives. Too bad there was not a good guy or gal with a gun
present, or that he did not get tackled.

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alistair 9 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Similar result, or worse, if he just had knives.

Why choose a gun then?

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Too bad there was not a good guy or gal with a gun
present, or that he did not get tackled.

Yeah, if I had a £...

Anyway, it's a shame those people got shot and killed and nobody was able to stop it.
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MissTerraK 9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Having the right tools for the job certainly make things a lot easier though.

You are aware that people have murdered others with their bare hands, right? So what are we going to do about that? When a person has murder in their heart, they'll do it, regardless if there is a tool at hand, or not. (No pun intended.)

It's a heart and soul issue, not a gun one.

Terra
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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Having the right tools for the job certainly make things a lot easier though.

Just another sad statistic where owning a gun didn't help anybody except the killer I guess.

Man charged after woman
Police searching for suspect who slit woman's throat during robbery outside Austin H-E-B - San Antonio Express-News
Jacquelyn Porreca dies after being stabbed in the neck during suspected robbery | Daily Mail Online
The only difference is those killed by knives can't be used to push the agenda of the anti-gun crowd.
It's the act that is appalling not what was used to carry it out.

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Kay King

9 years ago

Why choose a gun then?

A gun allows a killer to keep his distance. It's a lot harder to put a knife in a person or choke them with bare hands than to pull a trigger and watch what happens.

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MissTerraK

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

A gun allows a killer to keep his distance. It's a lot harder to put a knife in a person or choke them with bare hands than to pull a trigger and watch what happens.

Don't forget about knife throwing, you don't need to be up close and personal for that.

For example...

Basic Knife Throwing (Russian Army Style) -...

It's not too difficult to understand why this video has almost a million and a half views. Think about it.

Terra

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Don't forget about knife throwing, you don't need to be up close and personal for that.

For example...

Basic Knife Throwing (Russian Army Style) - YouTube

It's not too difficult to understand why this video has almost a million and a half views. Think about it.

Terra

Check out some of Jorge's videos on his slingshot channel.
Keep in mind he lives in a country with very strict gun control laws.

Three extremely powerful slingshots - YouTube

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alistair

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

A gun allows a killer to keep his distance. It's a lot harder to put a knife in a person or choke them with bare hands than to pull a trigger and watch what happens.

Thanks for the info but it was a rhetorical question.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Having the right tools for the job certainly make things a lot easier though.

Thats the key point

I am by no means a gun control person and I agree that a lot of proposed laws out there would leave only the criminals with guns but most of these type situations are being perpetrated by mentally unstable people and its just plain old common sense that guns make things a lot easier for them.

The knife argument just doesn't hold up. A person with a gun is far more empowered to kill than one with a knife - both in terms of not having to get as close and in not being able to defend yourself.

Guy had a whole lot of people say he had issues they knew about. Its just too easy to get a gun

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Thats the key point

I am by no means a gun control person and I agree that a lot of proposed laws out there would leave only the criminals with guns but most of these type situations are being perpetrated by mentally unstable people and its just plain old common sense that guns make things a lot easier for them.

The knife argument just doesn't hold up. A person with a gun is far more empowered to kill than one with a knife - both in terms of not having to get as close and in not being able to defend yourself.

Guy had a whole lot of people say he had issues they knew about. Its just too easy to get a gun

That's true and what is also true is that strict gun laws do absolutely nothing to stop that for the criminal element. Look at New York's safe act. Gun violence has either risen or remained unchanged here in the capital district since it was enacted. A guy this weekend was killed in a shot out with the Troy cops and one of his friends was arrested with a modified AK 47 while going to a memorial set up for the shooter who was killed.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

That's true and what is also true is that strict gun laws do absolutely nothing to stop that for the criminal element.

I agree with you totally. I am not a gun control person and I applaud schools where the teachers are strapping on side arms. Even the crazies are not crazy enough to walk into theatres if they know three of four people in there will blow them away and continue watching the movie and eating popcorn.

However in so many of these cases a few interviews (particulalry in this case), even past employment contacts, would suggest this guy would be better without a gun

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I agree with you totally. I am not a gun control person and I applaud schools where the teachers are strapping on side arms. Even the crazies are not crazy enough to walk into theatres if they know three of four people in there will blow them away and continue watching the movie and eating popcorn.

However in so many of these cases a few interviews (particulalry in this case), even past employment contacts, would suggest this guy would be better without a gun

Absolutely. Personally I think the Swiss have the right idea when it comes to gun ownership. But in order to enact something like that here it would have to start at the top. When our government has a habit of killing people they don't agree with or who have something they want, that attitude filters down to the people.
With the Swiss idea it all starts with a non-intervention policy by the government. Then (there) all males are conscripted into the army at (I believe) the age of 20. There they are issued a firearm which they can keep after their 2 years of service. But during that two years they are evaluated for their mental competence, taught proper firearm safety and issued a card saying they are competent to own a firearm. If they don't have that card they can't own a firearm. I would like to see something like that here but instead of just males have males and females conscripted. In addition to teaching and evaluating for firearms, teach them how to react to natural disasters and how to work together. Over time we would end up with a non violent society that would be trained to work together and see each other as equals.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Absolutely. Personally I think the Swiss have the right idea when it comes to gun ownership. But in order to enact something like that here it would have to start at the top. When our government has a habit of killing people they don't agree with .

Meh....There has never been a clearer cut war and reason to get involved than WW2 and they sat on the sidelines like cowards so I don't see how the Swiss have anything right. I know there are all kinds of mental gymnastics to their philosophy but what it essentially comes down to is "we don't value human life enough until its our own and we don't care about human right violation unless they are on our soil". I'm happy that the US and AIIies will get involved and see no connection whatsoever to legit wars with the gun violence of criminals.

The existence of police with guns doesn't, to me at least, justify or in any way flow down to criminal action with guns. Police and military can get it wrong sometimes of course. Anyway I think the mental evaluations have to be periodic. Soldiers at 20 years old might be fine but then go on to experience some life and have mental breakdowns. This guy seemed fine when he was in college and then by his 40s there was this.

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Meh....There has never been a clearer cut war and reason to get involved than WW2 and they sat on the sidelines like cowards so I don't see how the Swiss have anything right. I know there are all kinds of mental gymnastics to their philosophy but what it essentially comes down to is "we don't value human life enough until its our own and we don't care about human right violation unless they are on our soil". I'm happy that the US and AIIies will get involved and see no connection whatsoever to legit wars with the gun violence of criminals.

The existence of police with guns doesn't, to me at least, justify or in any way flow down to criminal action with guns. Police and military can get it wrong sometimes of course. Anyway I think the mental evaluations have to be periodic. Soldiers at 20 years old might be fine but then go on to experience some life and have mental breakdowns. This guy seemed fine when he was in college and then by his 40s there was this.

If the other countries in Europe had the same policy the war may not of happened. Do you really think Germany didn't invade the swiss because the swiss said they didn't want to play? Or maybe it had to do with the Germans knowing every male in the country was armed and ready to defend their country/

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b1gj4v 9 years ago

it was absolutely horrific what happened, if there is no strict law on guns then this is just the start of seeing more barbaric murders - then again how can you even stop guns falling in the wrong hands, they could use knifes, machetes, nowhere is safe.

Feel for the family and friends.
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Kay King 9 years ago

I remember a story I read where a German officer was meeting with top Swiss official. The German reportedly said "you have 500,000 troops - but what would you do if we attacked you with 1 million troops?" The Swiss official said "we'd shoot twice and go home".
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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If the other countries in Europe had the same policy the war may not of happened.

So Hitler went on his rampage because more countries in Europe were not pacifists?

Do you really think Germany didn't invade the swiss because the swiss said they didn't want to play?

No I think Germany didn't invade the swiss because it made no common sense to. Why bother attacking a country that won't oppose or assist the others against your attacks?
Leave em be and take the rest of Europe (and the world with Japanese and Italian help). Once you consolidate your power then you dictate to the only remaining country left.

Or maybe it had to do with the Germans knowing every male in the country was armed and ready to defend their country/

That really doesn't make a lot of sense. You are willing and able to take on all of Europe and Britain but you are afraid of the Swiss. Thats some serious historical revision you have going on in that last post

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

So Hitler went on his rampage because more countries in Europe were not pacifists?

No I think Germany didn't invade the swiss because it made no common sense to. Why bother attacking a country that won't oppose or assist the others against your attacks?
Leave em be and take the rest of Europe (and the world with Japanese and Italian help). Once you consolidate your power then you dictate to the only remaining country left.

That really doesn't make a lot of sense. You are willing and able to take on all of Europe and Britain but you are afraid of the Swiss. Thats some serious historical revision you have going on in that last post

First if you think being non-interventionist is the same as being a pacifist it's apparent you don't understand what in really is. Other countries didn't come into the fight until they were threatened, or do you think that all joined in the fight when the Nazis invaded Poland? Apparently Germany wasn't able to take on all of Europe and Britain (and don't forget Russia) or they would of won.

Now getting past what happened in WWII, how has our interventionist policies been working out since then?
Explain how you can support invading other countries and killing people just because they have something we want or so me can force democracy on them.
With being non-interventionist and having free trade between nations you build a peaceful world. It's also better for economies. The plan I laid out would have a better chance of bring people together then what we have now. I'd rather try something that might create unity amongst us instead of continuing to divide the people like our current policies do.
So are you for people having a chance to be equal or are you happy with keeping people divided?

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Explain how you can support invading other countries and killing people just because they have something we want or so me can force democracy on them.

Before I answer any of your other points (pretty easy to do) just wanted to clarify

Is this going to be an intelligent discussion or one given to the great idiocy that sometimes happens online where people get their undergarments in such a twisted wad they start creating strawmen of what the other person holds to instead of asking?

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Before I answer any of your other points (pretty easy to do) just wanted to clarify

Is this going to be an intelligent discussion or one given to the great idiocy that sometimes happens online where people get their undergarments in such a twisted wad they start creating strawmen of what the other person holds to instead of asking?

Never mind you already answered my points.

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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Never mind you already answered my points.

aaaah so you just answered mine. Its going to be your underpants in a twist strawman option for you then eh?

Just wanted to know before I proceeded.
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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Now that I know what kind of conversation YOU wish to have I can proceed

Originally Posted by ThomM

First if you think being non-interventionist is the same as being a pacifist it's apparent you don't understand what in really is

.

No I just have the common sense to know they overlap and in the case where you can't move yourself to participate in probably the most righteous war of the last two hundred years you better have pacifist leanings or you humanity needs to be questioned

Other countries didn't come into the fight until they were threatened, or do you think that all joined in the fight when the Nazis invaded Poland?

Thank you for the remedial WW2 history absolutely no one needed. Actually one of the things the world learned from WW2 is the hesitancy to use force against tyrants is a mistake regardless of their geography. Many non interventionists like yourself argued for non intervention in Europe until they were proven completely and absolutely wrong by the events of Pearl Harbor. You would have us not learn from history but thankfully we learned and learned quickly. Thats why instead of defeating japan and heading back home we were deeply involved at Normandy

Apparently Germany wasn't able to take on all of Europe and Britain (and don't forget Russia) or they would of won.

Now who needs a history lesson? they had allies in Italy and Japan and yes if not for the US joining in (and Britain not merely playing the part of your beloved Switzerland) Europe would have been lost

Now getting past what happened in WWII, how has our interventionist policies been working out since then?

Quite well on some ocassions but not well in others which I why I stated they can get it wrong but you ignored it due to the tightening pain from the twisting wad previously mentioned

Explain how you can support invading other countries and killing people just because they have something we want or so me can force democracy on them.

Don't have to. Its unintelligent to assume I have to defend or explain a position you made up in your head.

With being non-interventionist and having free trade between nations you build a peaceful world.

Yes of course. Non intervention makes corrupt rulers and violators of human rights so touched it bring s them to tears and if we send Marry Poppins to float over their heads they will all then join in a verse of Kumbaya
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Ron Lafuddy

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

they sat on the sidelines like cowards so I don't see how the Swiss have anything right. .

No. The Swiss didn't sit on the sidelines during the second world war.

They financed it and profited!

Switzerland's Role in World War II

Looted Assets:

The Nazi regime in Germany forced many of their victims to sign orders for the transfer of their accounts and other assets with Swiss banks and insurance companies to German banks, where they would be confiscated. Swiss banks did not doubt these orders. This way they made it unnecessarily easy for the Nazis to loote their victims' assets.
Gold Transactions:

During World War II the Swiss National Bank (SNB) bought gold worth 1,212,600 million Swiss Francs from the German Reichsbank, which was far more than the gold reserves of the Reichsbank had amounted to before the war. Buying and selling gold was quite a normal thing for a national bank at this time because gold was the very base of the international currency system. In the same period, SNB also bought even more gold (worth 2,243,900 Swiss Francs) from the USA. The problem was, that much of the gold sold by the German Reichbank was either stolen from national banks in occupied countries, especially Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg, and other gold was stolen from people the Nazis had murdered.
Switzerland's Federal Government granted generous credits to Germany and Italy under the terms of the clearing agreements and offered them financial privileges.
Swiss art-dealers were involved in disreputable trade with stolen objects of art.

Nobody bombs their banker.

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jimbo13

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If the other countries in Europe had the same policy the war may not of happened. Do you really think Germany didn't invade the swiss because the swiss said they didn't want to play? Or maybe it had to do with the Germans knowing every male in the country was armed and ready to defend their country/

Originally Posted by Kay King

I remember a story I read where a German officer was meeting with top Swiss official. The German reportedly said "you have 500,000 troops - but what would you do if we attacked you with 1 million troops?" The Swiss official said "we'd shoot twice and go home".

Switzerland is not in any geographically strategic area. Have a look at a map of Europe.

That is why no one bothers invading it.

Nothing to do with Swiss having guns. That would be irrelevant to an Army.

Especially one which only used 15% to fight the combined US, Canadian and British Armies for 6 years.

Switzerland would be a days work.

Dan

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ThomM

9 years ago

Originally Posted by jimbo13

Switzerland is not in any geographically strategic area. Have a look at a map of Europe.

That is why no one bothers invading it.

Nothing to do with Swiss having guns. That would be irrelevant to an Army.

Especially one which only used 15% to fight the combined US, Canadian and British Armies for 6 years.

Switzerland would be a days work.

Dan

Like I just said in my previous post, how has being interventionist worked out for the U.S. and Britain? Look at the mess in the Middle east that we are knee deep in and tell me that's working out. How did the U.S. and Britain intervening in Iran in 1953 working to overthrow their government work out?
I'll take non-intervention over that crap any day.

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

I think Mike had it about right:

For tactical reasons Hitler made repeated assurances before the outbreak of the Second World War that Germany would respect Swiss neutrality in the event of a military conflict in Europe.[2] In February 1937, he announced that "at all times, whatever happens, we will respect the inviolability and neutrality of Switzerland" to the Swiss federal councillor Edmund Schulthess, reiterating this promise shortly before the German invasion of Poland.[2] These were, however, purely political maneuvers intended to guarantee Switzerland's passiveness. Nazi Germany planned to end Switzerland's independence after it had defeated its main enemies on the continent first.[2]

The day France surrendered to Germany, the Nazis started planning an invasion of Switzerland:

The plan continued to undergo revision until October, when 12th Army submitted its fourth draft, now called Operation Tannenbaum. The original plan called for 21 German divisions, but that figure was revised downwards to 11 by OKH. Halder himself had studied the border areas, and concluded that the "Jura frontier offers no favorable base for an attack. Switzerland rises, in successive waves of wood-covered terrain across the axis of an attack. The crossing points on the river Doubs and the border are few; the Swiss frontier position is strong." He decided on an infantry feint in the Jura in order to draw out the Swiss Army and then cut it off in the rear, as had been done in France. With the 11 German divisions and roughly 15 more Italian divisions prepared to enter from the south, the Swiss were looking at an invasion by somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000 men.[21]

Hitler never gave the go-ahead, for reasons still uncertain today. Although the Wehrmacht feigned moves toward Switzerland in its offensives, it never attempted to invade. After D-Day, the operation was put on hold, and Switzerland remained neutral for the duration of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

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jimbo13

9 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Like I just said in my previous post, how has being interventionist worked out for the U.S. and Britain? Look at the mess in the Middle east that we are knee deep in and tell me that's working out. How did the U.S. and Britain intervening in Iran in 1953 working to overthrow their government work out?
I'll take non-intervention over that crap any day.

I was referring to your understanding of why Germany didn't invade Switzerland. Not really anything to do with the for or against intervention

I thought the thread was about an irrational prat selfishly deciding to kill two people for no good reason outside of his own mind.

Something that can happen anywhere.

Dan

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Lance K

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Just another sad statistic where owning a gun didn't help anybody except the killer I guess.

A statistic that will only grow with stricter gun control. The bad guys will still get guns. And more law abiding citizens will become victims at the hands of legislation that in theory was designed to protect them.

As I said before, guns aren't the problem. The attention is. Everybody wants attention and to feel important. Every time an incident like this gets extended coverage and analysis, other nut jobs see the attention such acts get.

I get that news stories have to be covered by the media. But at some point we as a society need to stop sensationalizing such incidents with extended coverage and in depth analysis/speculation regarding possible motives, the offender's mental health state, etc. if we want to slow their pace.

And it's not just a media problem. It's just as much a consumer problem. Media outlets follow the ratings. For some reason people can't get enough of tragedies, scandals, train wrecks, etc.

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

With the Swiss idea it all starts with a non-intervention policy by the government. Then (there) all males are conscripted into the army at (I believe) the age of 20. There they are issued a firearm which they can keep after their 2 years of service.

Hmmm, seems like the government intervenes by conscripting males into the Army, issuing guns and deciding who keeps them.

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ThomM 9 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Hmmm, seems like the government intervenes by conscripting males into the Army, issuing guns and deciding who keeps them.

Hmmm seems like Tim doesn't understand what a non-intervention government actually is.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism
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- TimPhelan 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ThomM
  
  Hmmm seems like Tim doesn't understand what a non-intervention government actually is.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism
  
  Ooops. My bad. Foreign policy. Dohhhh.
  
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  ThomM 9 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimPhelan
  
  Ooops. My bad. Foreign policy. Dohhhh.
  
  Another nice thing about non-intervention is the country could then afford things like universal health care, an affordable college education, etc. But in my mind the biggest benefit with how I layed it out would be with creating an environment of equality. We may be born alone and die alone, but in between we're all in this together.
  
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Ron Lafuddy

9 years ago

This tragic loss of innocent lives is hard news to hear, for all of us.

I would be curious to know if the shooter was on any prescribed medications.

He was obviously beyond any kind of rational or reasonable thought process.

In a utopian world, he would have ended his own miserable existence without murdering innocent people in the process.

Sadly, it didn't happen that way.

This is a reminder of the kind of world that we are living in.

There are a lot of sick individuals out there. Some are homeless. Many are not.

Some are from other countries where violence and even killing are a way of life.

It's more important than ever, to be as alert and aware as you can possibly
be, when going about your business.

Be safe.

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richworks4me

Banned 9 years ago

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Kay King

9 years ago

The murdered reporter's father made a valid point today - it's not "guns" - it's allowing mentally ill and emotionally disturbed people to pass a background check and buy guns.

This killer just bought the gun 2 months ago after the church shootings. He had a history of filing numerous claims and lawsuits that had been dismissed time after time. He had a history of anger problems that should have been documented by employers (but weren't because employers are afraid they'll be sued). Police had to be called when he was fired from the TV station two years ago. The last fact alone should disqualify him from buying a gun - wouldn't you think?...if it showed up.

...he passed a background check.

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discrat

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

. Police had to be called when he was fired from the TV station two years ago. The last fact alone should disqualify him from buying a gun - wouldn't you think?...if it showed up.

...he passed a background check.

This is totally unrealistic and is an infringement of peoples' rights. He was not arrested or booked for this

So you mean you think if someone is fired from their job because of Anger problems that they should not be able to go to Kmart and get a gun ??

Thats absurd. I think it makes more sense if their history tells gun dealers that this person was committed to a mental hospital ... that would be more in line

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TimPhelan

9 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

This is totally unrealistic and is an infringement of peoples' rights. He was not arrested or booked for this

So you mean you think if someone is fired from their job because of Anger problems that they should not be able to go to Kmart and get a gun ??

Thats absurd. I think it makes more sense if their history tells gun dealers that this person was committed to a mental hospital ... that would be more in line

I disagree. We should only be concerned when someone has been in a mental hospital? I think what many people are suggesting is we look for red flags and signs they may have mental problems. Kay is right on this one I think. At least the police having to escort him out of his work should have made them take a closer look.

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ThomM 9 years ago

Thats absurd. I think it makes more sense if their history tells gun dealers that this person was committed to a mental hospital ... that would be more in line

Most actual mental hospitals where closed in the 70's. Also gun dealers don't have access to a persons hospital records, neither do most govt. agencies. Here in NY part of the (un)safe act requires doctors to report people with a history of mental problems to the state. Problem there is they are reporting people that have been cured or not had a problem in years (to be safe) or people with guns that have a mental issue aren't going to the doctors for help in fear of loosing their guns.
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bizgrower

9 years ago

It's just a horrible event.

The cameraman was engaged to the show's producer and she was in the control room when it happened. It happens to be that it was her last day in that job. The reporter had just moved in with another reporter from the station and they were planning to marry.

I can't readily find the link now, but a previous co-worker of the killer, from about ten years back,
describes him as a lot of fun - the life of the party. I suspect that depression, and possibly meds,
had a role in his personality change.

When he was fired from the station two years ago, he had to be removed by police and they
watched the station for the rest of the weekend. Employees were warned to call 911 if they
saw him on site. Man, two years of boiling.

Dan

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bizgrower

9 years ago

Good Wonkblog about guns in general:
11 essential facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States - The Washington Post

I am for background checks and think that mental health records and contacts with law enforcement should be part of the background check. I live in a small town and know my local county and town cops, and would trust them to have a list of people who should not be able to buy guns. I know not everyone can say that. I can't even say that about the previous county that I lived in. A system that is as balanced as humanly possibly could be put in place - much like the process for obtaining a concealed carry permit.

My brother had a female housemate once. He let her move in knowing that she was in the mental health system. Her Dad was helping her find a place and explaining how she could pay the rent... I can't remember if she was diagnosed bi-polar or manic/depressive or what, just that she was deemed to be not a harm to herself or others.

She forgot about spending some money and called the cops, accusing us of stealing her $50 bucks.
She physically assaulted the person at the next place she lived. Again, experts had deemed she would not likely harm anybody else.

I read that there is an estimated 375 million guns in the US- so it will be quite a while before people cannot illegally obtain guns, or buy with out a background check or reported purchase....

There will always be a black market, bare hands, home-made weapons, other weapons...

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Kay King

9 years ago

What's interesting, too, is what is NOT being said in the media reports.

I think we need a new "activist" movement - open to all races and all sexual preferences. Anyone angry, victimized, ready to 'snap' or 'go ballistic' should be a member of SYF....Shoot Yourself First. I think it could catch on....

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think we need a new "activist" movement - open to all races and all sexual preferences. Anyone angry, victimized, ready to 'snap' or 'go ballistic' should be a member of SYF....Shoot Yourself First. I think it could catch on....

LoL.....I can see you just itching to extend the issue into areas this has nothing to do with by throwing activist and victimized into the mix.

Many people are victimized and do not resort to violence. Ghandi, Martin Luther King etc. We can't tell people they are not victims like our society never does anything wrong but then we don't have to go off the deep end either.

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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

Leaving gun control, knives, sling shots and World War II history aside for a moment...

Originally Posted by Kay King

What's interesting, too, is what is NOT being said in the media reports.

When all is said and done, this was a premeditated, racially motivated murder of two white people by the black man, Lester Flanagan.

...

Joe Mobley

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

When all is said and done, this was a premeditated, racially motivated murder of two white people by the black man, Lester Flanagan.

The media probably hasn't gotten going on that because

A) When it was all said and done his targets were employees from a place he was fired from and people he had a grudge against and not just because they were white

B) if you go too deeply into motivations you end up having to deal with him being motivated by a white guy killing nine African Americans JUST because they were black.

Not that I buy he was motivated primarily by race but if you decide to go down that road that you and Kay would love it to go it ends right back with the nine killings in SC and well.....your point gets lost in the shuffle.

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Kay King 9 years ago

I saw today that a few sites such as Infowars have the shooter's video of the killings posted. I think that's sad as it gives the crazies the attention they want. There is nothing to be gained from showing people in the last moments of their life.
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HN

Banned 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

B) if you go too deeply into motivations you end up having to deal with him being motivated by a white guy killing nine African Americans JUST because they were black.

If you use the term African Americans when you talk about the black people, why don't you use the term European Americans when you refer to white guys?

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

If you use the term African Americans when you talk about the black people, why don't you use the term European Americans when you refer to white guys?

Generally because our ancestors were inhumanly stolen, kidnapped and shipped like cattle to the "New world" by mostly whites we don't know the particular countries they came from. If we did then we might do as other European whites do and Identify by particular country

Italian American
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American

Polish American
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_American

French American
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_American

I've always thought that one of the silliest arguments regarding race is people claiming that because someone recognizes their ancestry but still identifies as the noun American they are less than patriotic. its a pretty vacant argument.

Only people who don't understand English miss that the noun in all of the above is American.

For some strange illogical (racial?) reason you never hear anyone get bent out of shape when people Identify as Floridian, Southerner, Bostonian sans any reference to American. force of habit? People can't bear not telling African Americans what they should and should not do?

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alistair

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

If you use the term African Americans when you talk about the black people, why don't you use the term European Americans when you refer to white guys?

I've wondered that myself. Over here if you're black and from here then you're considered British. If you're white and from here then you're considered British, although I'm English first, British second, and never European.

I watched a programme a few weeks ago on extreme Russia. The presenter is British and he's also black but when talking to a far right leader and one of his cohorts they just referred to him as an African American. When he asked them why they thought he was African American they basically said it's just politically correct to say that. His cohort then told the far right leader the presenter was in fact Afro English which the presenter, making the point replied "No, Afro English, I'm British".

You can probably understand it more if you watch a minute or so from 26 minutes in the video if you want.

Reggie Yates Extreme Russia - 1. Far Right and...

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

I've wondered that myself. Over here if you're black and from here then you're considered British. If you're white and from here then you're considered British,]

Not true. I've heard/read Brits make the claim frequently that they don't use similar conventions but you in fact from time to time do the same thing

Black Britons
BBC - History - British History in depth: The First Black Britons

British Africans
2011 Census: British Africans now dominant black group | The Voice Online

Britain, slavery and the trade in enslaved Africans, by Marika Sherwood

Al Qaeda's new frontier: British Africans 'will be radicalised as continent become new front for counter-terrorism' | Daily Mail Online

Its a world wide convention. I've lived in three different countries and in each they refer to ethnic or national heritage along with the country's nationality. The only time I see an issue being raised at this convention is with African Americans

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Joe Mobley

9 years ago

Originally Posted by HN

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony
B) if you go too deeply into motivations you end up having to deal with him being motivated by a white guy killing nine African Americans JUST because they were black.

Interestingly, you don't have to go to deeply to witness the hypocritical, double-standard in the coverage of Black Racism.

Joe Mobley

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Mike Anthony 9 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

Interestingly, you don't have to go to deeply to witness the hypocritical, double-standard in the coverage of Black Racism.

Nor the rather frail attempt to beg parity on the basis of one man killing coworkers he had alleged negative experiences with/

Witness the rage because the media has not played up the race angle in this case.

Never been told to sit in the back of a bus, never been denied employment , no ancestors brought over in the middle passage, never been raped or classified as sub human by your country, never been called the n word, never been lynched or denied the right to vote

but darn if you aren't the persecuted one because CNN hasn't put up your angle.....lol
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alistair

9 years ago

Your links point to articles that use the term British African because it's specifically about that ethnic group. What I'm saying is that we don't refer to black people as British African. They are called British if that's their nationality whereas as far as I can tell, all black Americans are generally referred to as African Americans rather than just American, although I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Your links point to articles that use the term British African because it's specifically about that ethnic group. What I'm saying is that we don't refer to black people as British African. They are called British if that's their nationality whereas as far as I can tell, all black Americans are generally referred to as African Americans rather than just American, although I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong.

Yes you are wrong on that. In many contexts we do not identify African American different from American. countless news stories simply say american when there is no race context even though African (and all other ethnicity) Americans are included (eg - you'll see and hear this with the report of injured or deceased US servicemen. We do not say 5 Americans and one African American were killed. Its just 6 American servicemen). What might give you that idea is that due to the context of racial relationships in our past and present noting the racial makeup of the victim or perpetrator in news stories (that subsequently come across the pond) is of importance and may have a bearing.

I think in any country where you have an ongoing issue subsequent reports would bring that into the mix. Say for example you had 9 hindus killed by say Roman Catholics in the last year in Britain due to issue between them. It would become news relevant when there is another hindu person killed to mention their religion.

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Mike Anthony

9 years ago

However I will say I think the race angle would have got played up here if in fact it wasn't so perfectly obvious the guy went after the station and people who he felt had done him wrong. Race was jut one thing the guy was angry about in a whole line of things.

PS. not for any kind of racism which is why i never cared for jeremiah Wright. Shucks not even a great Sharpton fan.

So.....Flame bait fail

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