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Our Solar System To Scale Across Seven Miles Of Desert

by Claude Whitacre
39 replies
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I just thought this was amazing, and wanted to share. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=zR3Igc3Rhfg
  • Profile picture of the author HN
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    0:30 But, in reality, the Earth and Moon are that far apart. That is the Earth and the moon to scale...

    I find it amazing that the moon can have any effect on Earth and vice versa at the distance of 30 Earth's diameters.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
      Originally Posted by HN View Post

      I find it amazing that the moon can have any effect on Earth and vice versa at the distance of 30 Earth's diameters.
      I thought of you when I read this passage from NASA:

      For many centuries, the fundamental unit of time was the rotational period of Earth with respect to the Sun. GMT was the standard time reference based on the mean solar time on the 0° longitude meridian in Greenwich, England. Universal Time (UT) is the modern counterpart to GMT and is determined from Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI) observations of the diurnal motion of quasars. Unfortunately, UT is not a uniform time scale because Earth's rotational period is (on average) gradually increasing.

      The change is primarily due to tidal friction between Earth's oceans and its rocky mantle through the gravitational attraction of the Moon and, to a lesser extent, the Sun. This secular acceleration gradually transfers angular momentum from Earth to the Moon. As Earth loses energy and slows down, the Moon gains this energy and its orbital period and distance from Earth increase. Shorter period fluctuations in terrestrial rotation also exist, which can produce an accumulated clock error of ±20 s in one or more decades. These decade variations are attributed to several geophysical mechanisms including fluid interactions between the core and mantle of Earth. Climatological changes and variations in sea-level may also play significant roles because they alter Earth's moment of inertia.

      The secular acceleration of the Moon implies an increase in the length of day (LOD) of about 2.3 milliseconds per century. Such a small amount may seem insignificant, but it has very measurable cumulative effects. At this rate, time as measured through Earth's rotation is losing about 84 seconds per century squared when compared to atomic time.
      Source: NASA - Time
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      • Profile picture of the author HN
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        The secular acceleration of the Moon implies an increase in the length of day (LOD) of about 2.3 milliseconds per century. Such a small amount may seem insignificant, but it has very measurable cumulative effects. At this rate, time as measured through Earth's rotation is losing about 84 seconds per century squared when compared to atomic time.

        What will happen when the earth stops spinning...


        As Earth loses energy and slows down, the Moon gains this energy and its orbital period and distance from Earth increase.
        How long until we'll lose the moon?


        P.S. Sorry to interrupt the intelligent conversation about hippos and more. OP must be enjoying the discussion with his "equals".
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by HN View Post

          [B]
          What will happen when the earth stops spinning....
          The good news is, the Sun will expand and consume the Earth before the Moon leaves its orbit, and the day won't be much longer than it is now. In 200 million years, only an hour will be added.

          So in 2 billion years (assume a constant rate of change), only ten hours will be added to our day. Maybe our day will be 48 hours long, before the planet fries.

          But these videos are fun. They remind me of the science specials like World Without Humans, and the one that imagined that every day were one second longer.....or what happens if every year, it gets one degree hotter? Interesting flights of the imagination.



          Originally Posted by HN View Post


          P.S. Sorry to interrupt the intelligent conversation about hippos and more. OP must be enjoying the discussion with his "equals".
          I enjoy trading insults with people I like...and Kurt.
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          • Profile picture of the author HN
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            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The good news is, the Sun will expand and consume the Earth before the Moon leaves its orbit, and the day won't be much longer than it is now. In 200 million years, only an hour will be added.

            So in 2 billion years (assume a constant rate of change), only ten hours will be added to our day. Maybe our day will be 48 hours long, before the planet fries.
            More assumptions. You are talking about these things as if they were facts.
            The Sun loses its mass and gravitational grip. How do you know the Earth will not recede far enough from the Sun by that time, not to be consumed?
            Let me assume. Because some scientists have done the calculation and you assume the calculation is correct?
            Also, why do you assume the constant rate of change?

            https://www.newscientist.com/article...-from-the-sun/

            If the Earth won't recede naturally, how do you know our descendants won't figure out how to push the Earth out of it's current orbit?

            The fact that the Moon and Earth are receding brings a few more questions -- how far was the Moon from the Earth and the Earth from the Sun when our solar system was born? How big was the Sun back then? How hot was it back then (the Sun had more energy and the Earth was closer after all). Were the conditions really perfect for the life to start?
            Perhaps Mars was at the perfect distance from the Sun a few billion years ago to support life...
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  • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      David; Thanks for posting the actual video. I was having trouble, converting it from a link.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        David; Thanks for posting the actual video. I was having trouble, converting it from a link.
        My pleasure. I suspect it was that t= parameter. I just wish WF would allow full-screen from the thread; I usually have to click through to the YT page, and then play them full-screen. Ah, well.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    How refreshing. A post on what is "out there" based on facts and science and stuff. Bravo.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      How refreshing. A post on what is "out there" based on facts and science and stuff. Bravo.
      Now we don't want to be making a habit of that now do we!
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Now we don't want to be making a habit of that now do we!
        Hell, no.

        BTW that loud noise you just heard coming from the southern hemisphere was not a bomb or volcano, it was someone's head exploding.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

      How refreshing. A post on what is "out there" based on facts and science and stuff. Bravo.
      When you see the relative distances between planets, it's staggering. But the distance between stars is really unimaginable.

      For example, if the Sun were the size of a basketball, the nearest next star would be 5,000 miles away. Now, if you expanded that out so the Sun were the size of the model in the video, (maybe 5 feet across) Uranus is a few miles away, but the nearest star would be maybe 15,000 miles away.
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      • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        When you see the relative distances between planets, it's staggering. But the distance between stars is really unimaginable.

        For example, if the Sun were the size of a basketball, the nearest next star would be 5,000 miles away. Now, if you expanded that out so the Sun were the size of the model in the video, (maybe 5 feet across) Uranus is a few miles away, but the nearest star would be maybe 15,000 miles away.
        I remember watching the original series of Cosmos by Carl Sagan and just about all the way through it my jaw was in a permanently dropped position because of information like that.

        One of the bits I found most fascinating was on the concept of time. Sagan said that if we re-scale the time since the Big Bang to the present day (the early 1980's when the show was made) down to a 24 hour clock, everything we know about the universe is crammed into the last few seconds of the last minute of the last hour before the clock resets.

        I haven't seen the recent version of the show, but it's on "My List" of stuff to watch on Netflix. I think I'll actually get around to watching it this weekend.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          I remember watching the original series of Cosmos by Carl Sagan and just about all the way through it my jaw was in an permanently dropped position because of information like that.

          One of the bits I found most fascinating was on the concept of time. Sagan said that if we re-scale the time since the Big Bang to the present day (the early 1980's when the show was made) down to a 24 hour clock, everything we know about the universe is crammed into the last few seconds of the last minute of the last hour before the clock resets.

          I haven't seen the recent version of the show, but it's on "My List" of stuff to watch on Netflix. I think I'll actually get around to watching it this weekend.

          It was worth it. The last episode summarized all the scientific discoveries that were necessary to have our current level of understanding. The scientists...working entire lives for one or two breakthroughs, and how they all combined...I shed a tear several times, when I thought of their dedication.

          Most of these people remain largely unknown. Tyson does an admirable job, and has the advantage of better animation, and more recent photos. But Carl Sagan kept me mesmerized by the excitement in his voice, when talking about the scientific.
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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

            I remember watching the original series of Cosmos by Carl Sagan and just about all the way through it my jaw was in an permanently dropped position because of information like that.

            One of the bits I found most fascinating was on the concept of time. Sagan said that if we re-scale the time since the Big Bang to the present day (the early 1980's when the show was made) down to a 24 hour clock, everything we know about the universe is crammed into the last few seconds of the last minute of the last hour before the clock resets.

            I haven't seen the recent version of the show, but it's on "My List" of stuff to watch on Netflix. I think I'll actuallyget around to watching it this weekend.
            Yes, well worth it, visually spectacular, especially the Jupiter, Red Spot computer animation, (you have to keep telling yourself that those cloud depictions can be measured in Earths).

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        • Profile picture of the author HN
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          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          How refreshing. A post on what is "out there" based on facts and science and stuff. Bravo.
          This is of course cute and admirable that people are fascinated by facts and science, but ...

          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          One of the bits I found most fascinating was on the concept of time. Sagan said that if we re-scale the time since the Big Bang to the present day (the early 1980's when the show was made) down to a 24 hour clock, everything we know about the universe is crammed into the last few seconds of the last minute of the last hour before the clock resets.
          ... wouldn't it be great to at least be able to quote those correctly, esp. if this was the most fascinating bit. In that show they compressed the history of the universe into a single year, not a day. Perhaps for you being off by the factor of 365 is not a big deal. In this particular case it doesn't matter, even though breaking it down into one year is much more dramatic and impressive to demonstrate the point.

          It's cool that they spark interest in science and facts in Hampton Senior High School and Wembley Technical College, but they should try to teach people how to remember stuff. What do you think Daniel G.?

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Each of us think of ourselves as being so important. But in the great scope of space, time and the Universe, we're all pretty much meaningless. Even the greatest humans of all time like Alexander the Great or George Washington have no significance to the Universe. Except me, of course.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Each of us think of ourselves as being so important. But in the great scope of space, time and the Universe, we're all pretty much meaningless. Even the greatest humans of all time like Alexander the Great or George Washington have no significance to the Universe. Except me, of course.

      Another fact that the series reminded me of, is how few people actually contribute of the advancement of science. And how happenstance the progress.

      With just a few minor changes in who discovered what...where they were at the time...who they met...we could have been thousands of years more advanced than we are now...or still in the dark ages.

      For example, Kurt...had you just randomly picked another forum to post on, it would have been a far more enjoyable experience for us....and a thousand years of joy would have been shared by all. Heck, even cake would have tasted better. And I love my cake.

      You are not meaningless in the grand scheme of things, in the same way one Ebola virus is not meaningless in the grand scheme of things......with much the same effect.


      Feel the love.

      (There are some newer people here. The last half of the post is a joke. Kurt is one of the brightest people here. But the Ebola reference isn't that far off)
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Another fact that the series reminded me of, is how few people actually contribute of the advancement of science. And how happenstance the progress.

        With just a few minor changes in who discovered what...where they were at the time...who they met...we could have been thousands of years more advanced than we are now...or still in the dark ages.

        For example, Kurt...had you just randomly picked another forum to post on, it would have been a far more enjoyable experience for us....and joy would have been shared by all. Heck, even cake would have tasted better. And I love my cake.

        You are not meaningless in the grand scheme of things, in the same way one Ebola virus is not meaningless in the grand scheme of things......with much the same effect.


        Feel the love.

        (There are some newer people here. The last half of the post is a joke. Kurt is one of the brightest people here. But the Ebola reference isn't that far off)
        I was thinking how much I COULD have affected the future of the world the other day.

        On a quarterly basis we do a mass refund to students, this time it was 5,500 (usually 8k) checks to be issued to individual students. (these are refunds for dropped classes, scholarship payments etc)

        Due to a big system upgrade our check printer failed to print. So, they sat there in limbo for 2 days while it was fixed, The file had already been sent to the bank to allocate the 7 million dollar funds paid out and were pertaining to specific check numbers.

        So, when I got the go ahead I had to re-start the process. There is one selection that is critical, By clicking in a radio button box (choice of 2) I either choose, print with the original set of check numbers or generate entirely new ones.

        If I had selected the wrong option ( Not the Original set to tie in with the bank) all the checks would have bounced costing us a fortune and the students would not have got there money, big delay. I would be fired.

        Many students want a refund because circumstances change, some are desperate for there cash, the difference in being thrown out of their accommodation for not having rent. Some may be depressed and this could tip them over the edge. Perhaps a few would have gone on to invent something to change the planet, but now they are dead because I did not hit ONE BUTTON correctly. Such power I wield!

        Fortunately I know my job and check and double check these things.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          I was thinking how much I COULD have affected the future of the world the other day.
          Think of Einstein. What if he had been born ten years before, or after? What if he were born in a different town? Read a few different books? Had different classmates, different teachers? Had a slightly different interest in math? Didn't publish? Got a job at the post office instead of as a patent clerk? Had a different boss at his job?

          What if one of the math books he read had never been written? Or had been written in a different language? Or Einstein never noticed that book on a shelf? Or what if he was distracted when E=MC2 flashed in his brain?

          What if Einsteins's grandfather married a different woman, or conceived their children in a different order? Or decided to have fewer children? Or moved to a different area?

          What if the glass lens was invented 500 years later, or 500 years earlier? What if it just never occurred to anyone to uses lenses to see microbes? Or Stars?

          What if Tesla didn't discover alternating current?

          What if the Plague killed 1% more or less people? Or none?

          What if the Egyptians and then the Indians (from India) never discovered the Zero, and how it could be used?


          What if, 65 million years ago...the meteor missed?
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            "What if, 65 million years ago...the meteor missed?"

            Kurt would have been a Velociraptor and Riffle would have been a Goatiesaurus.

            When you were born it was the only time in your life you got laid.

            Perhaps you would enjoy some of the novels by Harry Turtledove. He specializes in alternative word history scenario's
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        • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          ...On a quarterly basis...
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          ...some are desperate for there cash, the difference in being thrown out of their accommodation for not having rent....
          It'd seem that perhaps it would be more fair to run the process more often, say, twice a month. Sounds like your firm is holding a few thou per client, a few million, for a few months, just to avoid some work and earn some nice interest. Also, $28M/year sounds like a huge return rate; maybe your company could focus on that, and end up netting a lot more than just a few thou in interest.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

            It'd seem that perhaps it would be more fair to run the process more often, say, twice a month. Sounds like your firm is holding a few thou per client, a few million, for a few months, just to avoid some work and earn some nice interest. Also, $28M/year sounds like a huge return rate; maybe your company could focus on that, and end up netting a lot more than just a few thou in interest.
            Government institution, community college, standard practice. It ties in with the semesters. We also do a couple of hundred a week as and when needed so it's an ongoing thing. (80,000 students)
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        Another fact that the series reminded me of, is how few people actually contribute of the advancement of science. And how happenstance the progress.

        With just a few minor changes in who discovered what...where they were at the time...who they met...we could have been thousands of years more advanced than we are now...or still in the dark ages.

        I think it was the Greeks, but it could have been the Romans, that discovered steam/rocket power 2000 years ago. They created steam that powered an object to spin, but it seems to have been a toy for amusement only.


        Had they taken it a small step further and discovered how to use steam to power mechanical items, the industrial age may have started 2000 years earlier.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          I think it was the Greeks, but it could have been the Romans, that discovered steam/rocket power 2000 years ago. They created steam that powered an object to spin, but it seems to have been a toy for amusement only.


          Had they taken it a small step further and discovered how to use steam to power mechanical items, the industrial age may have started 2000 years earlier.
          Here's a video using a recreation of the device. It was the ancient Greek Heron of Alexandria that is credited with the invention.


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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    Just watched it!

    That was fantastic.

    Thanks Claude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
    That was fantastic, Claude, thanks for sharing.
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  • Profile picture of the author jumesh
    Wow! That's amazing! It makes my problems seem so so so small. And yet they contain universes too!
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Steampunk Greeks?

    Gotta rock out on that baby.
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  • Profile picture of the author HN
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    You took the time to write a long reply, why delete it?
    Oops, I forgot there was no moon. How do I know Mars was in the habitable zone? I don't. I never said I knew. What were the other questions you just deleted? I believe the answer to those is also "I don't know" and I don't pretend that I know. Why do you think any of these questions are irritating?

    How can they push the Earth out of the orbit? For example direct a few asteroids to pass at the right distance from Earth so they will pull it a little by little further away from the Sun. In 200 millions of years they might get to try this enough times to succeed. Or completely mess things up. I have no idea. I was asking why do you think no such possibility exists?
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