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Today I won Rebills!

by irawr Banned
27 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
    • |
So today I received a piece of physical mail that I thought was kind of clever but the campaign was inherently completely unethical. I wanted to actually scan the mail and post the images here but unfortunately the company claimed their copywrite so I can't.

How this campaign works:

The envelope informs me that I could be a winner, there is also a notice that tampering with this mail could result in a $2000 fine, which is true.

Upon opening the envelope there is a sales letter, an insert, and a business reply mail envelope.

The sales letter informs me about this wonderful product I could potentially win if the included insert happens to be a winner. After carefully reading the sales letter, using the dictionary several times, and consulting with my attorney, I verify that this sales letter is indeed legally complaint, but very misleading. This sales letter presents this product as being "valuable" but in reality it costs about 3$ to produce and isn't really worth much to anybody. There is no information about how this offer works on the sales letter at all.

The front of the insert looks similar to a scratch off ticket. Upon scratching the ticket off I found out that I have won! Big surprise. Everybody loves winning! I'm instructed to follow the instructions on the back of the insert. The instructions are very simple: fill out my credit card information, place this insert into the business reply envelope, seal it, mail it, and done! I'm a winner! After careful inspection there is a box on the insert which describes in extremely vague terminology how this offer works and also gives me the option to opt out of the offer, but the option of opting-out is worded in a way that is hard to understand.

I again have to consult with my attorney and he explains: I don't have to pay the bill if I return the product upon receiving, but if I don't then I will be billed 20$. Returning the product does not mean I will not receive these products in the future, but if I don't want to pay for them I have to return them (presumably at my own cost.) No information is provided on how to cancel this "winning." I can expect to receive the winnings every month, wow!

I'm sure if I decided to "claim my prize" I would have been targeted with multiple up-sales and why not, right?

So let's do some math here. I doubt these mails cost much more then 50 cents to send and they are highly targeted (they purchased the list from a company I will never do business with again.) I have no knowledge of conversion rates for physical mail campaigns but this one seems like it would be pretty high. So if they can get 10,000 "winners" to take this offer, that costs them about 3$ for the product and about $2 to ship it. They collect $20 per month, so that's an ROI of 400% per "winner." This works out to be $150,000 per month, but obviously there's a substantial cost for the leads and the mail. Again, I'm sure there's multiple upsales that would help counteract those costs, if you took the offer before, maybe you would want to double down, or go for then 10x offer. Who knows? I'm not going to be the guy who finds out how the upsales "work."

I have never won rebills before and I thought I would share this campaign with you guys the best I could.
#rebills #today #won
  • Profile picture of the author Brian Brown
    Congratulation! That gives others inspiration
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  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    I really do not get this post. It is junk mail, and why anyone would consult an attorney because they got junk mail is beyond me. There is a reason for trash cans

    al
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    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." Thomas Edison

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    • Profile picture of the author irawr
      Banned
      Originally Posted by agmccall View Post

      I really do not get this post. It is junk mail, and why anyone would consult an attorney because they got junk mail is beyond me. There is a reason for trash cans

      al
      Oh it's pretty simple. So I could potentially do exactly what this company does, do it via email, or write a biz-op about the technique and sell the course.
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      • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
        Originally Posted by irawr View Post

        Oh it's pretty simple. So I could potentially do exactly what this company does, do it via email, or write a biz-op about the technique and sell the course.
        Aren't there much more ethical ways to make money, like maybe being completely transparent in your marketing techniques instead of tricking people into buying something then making it near impossible for them to get out of it?
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        • Profile picture of the author irawr
          Banned
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author TheGMa
            Um, before I click the JOIN button irawr, please clarify:

            I will receive a crisp $20 bill every month;

            OR

            I will receive a crisp bill for $20 every month

            - Annie
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    [QUOTE=irawr;10344219]



    Upon opening the envelope there is a sales letter, an insert, and a business reply mail envelope.

    i always make a point of returning business reply mail envelopes - empty...
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    These guys helped me with the feedback for my site
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Right now I've been receiving magazines in the mail. I have no idea where they are coming from. I've been watching my bank account to see if I get charged for them. Thought they were just samples but this month I got another one. So now I have to go down to the post office, find out who's sending them, call the company and chew their asses a new one for it, and contact the consumer's protection agency about the fraud.

    Sick of this damned marketing corruption. I've had to change my whole bank account before because someone got a hold of my card number and started charging me for stuff I didn't order. Looks like it might be down to this again.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Geeesh. Can't believe you actually spent a moment's time on this, including posting it here.
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    • Profile picture of the author dmaster555
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Geeesh. Can't believe you actually spent a moment's time on this, including posting it here.
      There's nothing wrong with learning how things work, even if it is a scam.
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      • Profile picture of the author irawr
        Banned
        Originally Posted by dmaster555 View Post

        There's nothing wrong with learning how things work, even if it is a scam.
        I'm a relatively ethical marketer, to be clear, if you really dig down into marketing, it's somewhat unethical at a certain level. Consider General Motors for example, they build cars, but obviously some of their actions were pretty unethical.

        The moderators of this forum have removed several of my posts from this thread. The reason I created it was to point out what was not illegal, but is as unethical as you can get, but those posts were deleted and this thread was moved.

        To be clear about the point I am trying to make; many marketers do not understand their role, it isn't your job to decide what to promote, it's your job to promote whatever is handed to you, but you must comply with the law and it is in your best interest to operate your business in a manner that is as ethical as it can be. I think a lot of marketers leave money on the table because they won't do something that is tricky or requires them to lie. It's not illegal to be tricky or to lie, it's illegal to make false claims about a product. Stop smoking the high ethics pipe, it's not your role to decide if it's "right" or not, it is what it is, and it's an opportunity. It's right for your business or it's not, but if it's right and you don't run the ads, or the email, well then you walked away from the money that should have been yours, and now somebody else is going to take it.
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by irawr View Post

          To be clear about the point I am trying to make; many marketers do not understand their role, it isn't your job to decide what to promote, it's your job to promote whatever is handed to you
          That's absolute rubbish. There are many things that I will not promote and I pick and choose carefully what I will.
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          • Profile picture of the author irawr
            Banned
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            That's absolute rubbish. There are many things that I will not promote and I pick and choose carefully what I will.
            Oh no, it isn't. If you tested it and your data lets you know that product_A produces 150ROI and product_B produces 700ROI, then you're going to find a way to market product_B. Maybe not to projects with your real name on it, but you will find a way.

            A ways back, I investigated Quick Sprout. I signed up, realized it was a complete scam, and canceled 30 minutes later. Maybe things have changed on the site since I joined, but yeah how's that working out for Neil Patel? A well known marketer ripping off newbies who want to make money, he did it in plain sight, and nobody noticed or cared. John Chow and ShoeMoney pushed MLM onto the masses, I didn't see their business fall apart.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by irawr View Post

              Oh no, it isn't. If you tested it and your data lets you know that product_A produces 150ROI and product_B produces 700ROI, then you're going to find a way to market product_B. Maybe not to projects with your real name on it, but you will find a way.
              YOU will find a way to market a product that you don't believe in or that may not be ethical. I don't give a rats ass what the ROI is ... I won't market anything I don't believe in.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by agc View Post

          The more scams one can see and understand the less likely one is to fall for any of their infinite variations or mutations.
          If people would stop expecting something for nothing they wouldn't likely fall for any scams, and very few scams would ever get off the ground.

          Originally Posted by irawr View Post

          To be clear about the point I am trying to make; many marketers do not understand their role, it isn't your job to decide what to promote, it's your job to promote whatever is handed to you...
          It's always your job to decide what to promote...it's your conscience you have to live with. Laying the responsibility on someone else for your actions is a rationalization that does not absolve you from your actions.
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          • Profile picture of the author irawr
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            If people would stop expecting something for nothing they wouldn't likely fall for any scams, and very few scams would ever get off the ground.
            "Free" works, but it's difficult to capitalize the insane demand volume ethically. These people are also prequalified to a certain extent. If the target demo is IQ 100 or less, then running lead gen works with free offers, anybody significantly above 100 isn't likely going for it since they know not to expect anything of real value for nothing. Anybody above 110 will understand that value comes through certain channels and will avoid it completely. So you know that with a freebie campaign (typical lead magnet) that your leads are IQ 100 or less, but what do you do with the 90 or less people? That represents 20%+ of the list you are not attempting to capitalize on.

            I'm not promoting these guys in any way, but look at an offer like cash camp (watch the sales video and learn as a marketer, all I'm saying here.) It's 100% clear to me what IQ range this offer is targeting. What am I suppose to do with the low IQ segments? It's unethical to push a program on them that actually requires relatively high intelligence. Generally these people don't know anything and they certainly don't want to learn anything. An offer like that works for that range and well; maybe the lead will turn into some wizard binary options trader, I have no idea. I don't market that offer (or any BO training offers) but if I did, I certainly wouldn't tell them it's a good idea. The approach would be "If you want this, here it is."

            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            It's always your job to decide what to promote...it's your conscience you have to live with. Laying the responsibility on someone else for your actions is a rationalization that does not absolve you from your actions.
            There are many professions that require people to do things that are not very nice. Somebody has to be the CEO of a collections company and they need employees to operate the business. If you have a site with a free offer on it to run lead gen and then you mail them with offers that aren't free, well that's kind of not really a nice thing to do, right? You have to be somewhat intrusive and inherently unethical to get your message across. I'm not trying to rationalize anything, the offer exists and so does demand. My role in connecting the prospect to the unethical offer is not unethical. I will have no issue living with my conscience, the lead wanted it and I gave it to them. How is what I did as a marketer unethical?

            I think many marketers are hung up on this. I'm not suggesting you scam anybody and certainly not suggesting that you do something illegal. But there are plenty of people out there who want things in their life that are not a very good idea and it's not your job to steer them away. When you realize that everything is, what it is, I think most of the people on these forums will see themselves become more successful.

            It's just an offer, it doesn't have to be a good one, and nobody is forcing anybody to take it. Think about the ethics of what banks do. When you walk into a bank to get a $10,000 cash advance, the agent will be jobless if they convince you not to do it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by irawr View Post

              "Free" works...
              I know "free" works. I give away free information myself. Whether it works or not wasn't the point. The point was, if people quit expecting something for nothing these scams would mostly fail. Because "free" works doesn't change that.

              There are many professions that require people to do things that are not very nice. Somebody has to...
              Yes, many professions require people to do things that aren't nice. It doesn't change what I said though. That "somebody" doesn't have to be you.

              I'm not referring to you personally, but the metaphoric "you" that I quoted from your earlier post.

              All that rationalization you offered doesn't change what I wrote in response to a very specific thing you said: "... it isn't your job to decide what to promote, it's your job to promote whatever is handed to you."

              Sorry, but your statement is just wrong. Each person decides, according to their own moral code, exactly what they will and will not do for money. Our actions are our own responsibility, period. Using your logic, you could promote a murder for hire because it's "your job to promote whatever is handed to you."
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              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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              • Profile picture of the author irawr
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                Using your logic, you could promote a murder for hire because it's "your job to promote whatever is handed to you."
                Well we don't live in a society where that's legal and I think we both agree that's a good thing. But if it was considered to be an acceptable practice and worked, say the way legal services work, I'm sure those leads would be pretty pricey.

                Also to explain my comment in a bit more depth, because although I know what you're saying is right, after running tests and working in the business for awhile, sooner or later people will find something that works very well for them. When that occurs their options as far as offers to promote might be extremely limited. This is what I have found to generally be the case (especially when testing different niches.)

                I see your point, I guess if you don't think it's a good idea, you could just walk away from it. I don't know why you would though, there's always a way to promote anything in a way that's completely ethical. If you had a mailing list which specifically discussed work at home opportunities and trading systems, you could promote many of the binary options course as such, obviously nothing wrong there. I doubt it would be very effective since most of them are setup in a way where it seems like they're designed to used to scam.

                With that said though, just about any affiliate program can be used as a scam. I could write an email telling a story (so it's disclosed that it's a story, without stating that it's fiction or non fiction) about my friend Cathy, who just had her personal physician tell her that doctors have discovered a miracle new weight loss supplement and then link it to the most expensive vitamin c supplement on amazon. I'm sure if an account manager discovered what I was doing, they would ban the account immediately.
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                • Profile picture of the author agc
                  Originally Posted by irawr View Post

                  Well we don't live in a society where that's legal and I think we both agree that's a good thing. But if it was considered to be an acceptable practice and worked, say the way legal services work, I'm sure those leads would be pretty pricey.
                  So what you are saying, basically, is that you are a pure whore. If it's legal to sell, then yours is for sale.

                  And "legal" even sounds like a pretty gray area with you, what with how premeditatively engaged you are with your lawyers.
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                  • Profile picture of the author irawr
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by agc View Post

                    And "legal" even sounds like a pretty gray area with you, what with how premeditatively engaged you are with your lawyers.
                    Works with my budget. I don't break any laws, I have a lawyer double check everything and even make sure it's not "grey area." Some of the stuff I come up with is pretty hysterical and I kind of get told that well, it's legal but it's pretty open to a civil case so I don't end up running it. I've been threatened by NPEs with patent litigation three times, had to go to a court over it once. I obviously wasn't infringing on their patent and we settled it under an NDA. This was pretty much a scam, but I was happy to get out of it for that amount.

                    I have business insurance as well, I highly recommend it. As well as private domain registration and do everything under pen names. This helps too if you hire people to do SEO work, your operations are not all intertwined in a way where google could slap a dozen sites because the guy you hired to build links to one site went crazy with some comment back link spam tool. I realize as far as the social networks this really isn't allowed, but if you properly utilize virtual machines and have virtual computers setup through a private vpn correctly and don't mix the ips up, then they really have no way to connect it. I don't friend my accounts together or cross link my sites. You can think what you want but I don't operate this way because what I do is shady, it's because I want my operation to be as sustainable as possible.

                    You have to understand, once you've scaled to a certain size you become a target, and you need defenses. There's plenty of stories of guys who hit 10k a day and got completely destroyed by a single account ban or google penalty. If you don't have millions sitting around in an account somewhere you won't be able to defend yourself against some NPE who thinks that you are somehow infringing on their patent for transmission of payment information over a network. So yeah, if you're a serious marketer, lawyers are your friend, not your enemy.

                    Edit: Also, you calling me a whore? I think what you just did is worse then anything I have ever done in my business. Obviously your standards are low, maybe you should apply them to your business, it might work out. Nobody will tell you if an offer works and there's certainly a way to do it ethically, why wouldn't you just test it? Obviously some offers are terrible and the landing page is garbage, so you skip those. You operate in a field where data is not free and the only way you make money is by running it, I just don't understand why most of you guys won't.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cali16
              Originally Posted by irawr View Post

              I'm a relatively ethical marketer, to be clear,
              Hmmmm... Relatively ethical is like being "kinda pregnant"...

              Originally Posted by irawr View Post

              anybody significantly above 100 isn't likely going for it.) It's 100% clear to me what IQ range this offer is targeting.
              Lots of people with well above average to very high IQs fall for scams. And they tend to feel especially foolish afterwards (e.g. those who were scammed by Bernie Madoff, which included a lot of very successful professionals).

              You have to remember that scams appeal far more to emotions than intellect.
              Signature
              If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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              • Profile picture of the author irawr
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                Hmmmm... Relatively ethical is like being "kinda pregnant"...
                Well I could start a campaign by writing a list of unbelievable claims about a product and then figure out how to make the statements true by changing one word. That's not what I do though, but I know what you're saying here.

                Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                Lots of people with well above average to very high IQs fall for scams. And they tend to feel especially foolish afterwards (e.g. those who were scammed by Bernie Madoff, which included a lot of very successful professionals).

                You have to remember that scams appeal far more to emotions than intellect
                What he did reminds me a lot of what some of the "Guru" marketers do. One side of their business is completely legit and then once you're in their sales funnel you find out about their "invisible business" and that's when your bank account get's destroyed. Six months later you're wondering if you will ever be able to sell the $16,000 worth of breast enlargement cream some MLM pushed onto you.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    ^ especially if it's a scam.

    The more scams one can see and understand the less likely one is to fall for any of their infinite variations or mutations.
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  • Profile picture of the author agc
    I have walked away from the unethical money at times. Actually pretty much all the time once I achieved some basic level of income at my j.o.b. Of course it takes a certain level of privilege to do so, (like food, clothing, transportation and shelter), but to some extent that privilege is not so hard to achieve in this country if you let go of a sense of entitlement and recognize the privilege available through a middle class job.


    I don't much think it should have been my money though. The Mustang GT Convertible was not "my" car. My car was 1/3 the price but it was what I could afford at the time and it served me well.

    That Mustang GT money was perhaps available, but only for someone willing to do things I wasn't willing to do. I think an out of whack sense of entitlement definitely dilutes ones ability to recognize their privilege to just say no to the dirty money.

    I'm sure for many girls the same could be said of escorting, stripping or porn. "It's right for you or it's not, but if it's right and you don't (do it), well then you walked away from the money that should have been yours, and now somebody else is going to take it." Would you want your pretty daughter to live by your argument?

    Of course someone else is going to take it. However, I prefer reserve certain parts of myself as not for sale. Luckily, my values are not for everyone... else I would find nobody willing to do nasty things with me for a dollar bill.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    It's like pee-wee baseball, everyone's a winner.

    Enjoy your participation trophy.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheGMa
      Back in the day one of my corp. officers came up with an excellent definition of scam:

      The function of a scam is always to sway present action toward future hopes.
      - Frank Walker, CFE
      Fraud Secrets: A Backstage Tour

      Scammers are the world's best marketers. Sad but true. The good ones study their craft, marketing psychology, with unremitting devotion. They test market their approaches and go bananas with the methods that work for them. Yes, it's true that there are very young Internet scammer millionaires.

      HeySal, the magazines you are receiving are merely a marketing ploy to get you attached to them so you will subscribe. I'll bet there is a loose subscription form in each one. Those are meant to drop out of the magazine so you will pick them up and read them.

      However, there's a legal difference between scamming and shady or marginal marketing practices. A scammer takes your money and runs off with it. You are left with absolutely nothing in your hands except trouble.

      Marginal, questionable, and downright shady marketing practices are just that, which is why the SEC takes so long to build a case. Doesn't mean there's a scam. It's a disgusting shade of gray area in which buyer beware runs headlong into proof of intent to defraud because the buyer actually receives a product, albeit a crappy one.

      As much as I truly like you, irawr, I'm disappointed in your stance when it comes to making product statements based solely on what you know a purchaser wants to hear and if I understand you correctly, in an only sort of truthful manner.

      Yeah, you can sell whatever is hot at the moment, even stuff from the dark side, and make a bloody fortune doing it. I considered the dark side once when I was in a dreadful crunch, but switched to Top Ramen instead. Couldn't bring myself to do it. Somebody else made that money (where's my Lysol?). I frankly don't give a damn if someone else makes whatever money. I can't have it all anyway.

      And I understand the temptation to boggle the mind of a potential buyer in order to make a sale. Some funnel pages make my eyes roll and pop at the same time while my mind is muttering bad words grandmas aren't supposed to know.

      But somewhere along the line you have to answer to the voice of Integrity, even if you are only telling it to get lost.

      - Annie
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      • Profile picture of the author irawr
        Banned
        Originally Posted by TheGMa View Post

        As much as I truly like you, irawr, I'm disappointed in your stance when it comes to making product statements based solely on what you know a purchaser wants to hear and if I understand you correctly, in an only sort of truthful manner.
        I think you all have misunderstood.

        What I do is ethical, sometimes the guys I work with could do better.

        If I'm marketing a payday loan company, what am I suppose to write in the ad copy? "This is a bad idea, only do this if you are truly desperate! CLICK NOW" Some people who take PDLs are stupid and will get trapped in a never ending debt cycle, I know it happens. (Same thing with every other financial service.) Then there's people who screwed up the budget for the month and are going to miss a mortgage payment and if they can't get a short term loan they're screwed. Yeah! I tell them what they want to hear, "Get a short term loan, money in your account in 24 hours!" I don't lie to people and tell them they have won a contest or something...

        If I'm running ads for a hookup dating site, what am I suppose to tell the prospect? "This is a bad idea, you might really regret this! CLICK HERE FOR STDs!" Generally speaking here, the strategy is to use an image... There's usually little or no text at all. As far as promoting dating, look there's dating ads in the newspaper, do you consider them to be unethical? I don't, they provide a valuable service in a dying format.

        If I can actually find a BizOp that's not a complete ripoff, (pretty rare I usually just wait for the other legit guys to find it and then I search out the network,) I can't write some sales letter that says: "Hey I found this weird program from some dude I secretly follow on Facebook, I have no idea if this works, but it teaches you the basics of the real estate business. From personal experience most people who try this don't really make it and most won't even try it at all. I do know that if you have zero experience with real estate and try it without some kind of program like this, well then your chances of success are worse. Buy it now $499!" Yeah that email isn't going anywhere.

        I'm also don't promote stuff that's ridiculous, for example there's ebooks that teach you how to reverse hair loss, or stop grey hair. Current Clickbank products:
        Code:
        http://hairlossprotocol101.com/video/?hop=0

http://www.reversingthegray.com/?hop=0
        How does this work, you print the ebook out and rub in on your head? ...

        Edit: Look, many people market IM as their niche, this isn't totally squeaky clean either. You are selling them on the concept that making money online is a great idea and then usually these courses are pretty surface level and could easily lower your income level. It works for some people right? It works for me and I don't even market IM products. Maybe it's a mistake but the market seems a little saturated. Then again, with so many people creating products, there's a lot of opportunities too.
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