Nononsense thread..Non political...Non religious one!!!

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

...
To be a bit flippant, you mentioned you like to come here because people aren't as crazy; more rational. What I find funny about that is that this is where I come to interact with the "crazies". I don't meant that in a bad way, it's just that this is the craziest place I go. Nothing wrong with that. Just goes to show that one person's sanity is another's craziness. Fair enough?

~M~

Well, you probably count ME in that number. I'm not though. and HEY, this place is crazy to me also.

As for politics, I WISH people weren't so. And they always believe I am some white sexist racist christian conservative zealot. I just want to be left in peace. I don't ask for much, and want others to react in kind.

BTW I got a call from my mother yesterday. She did what I thought she would do for a few years now. SHE MOVED INTO MY HOUSE! I mentioned here, in a thread where someone talked about HER relations with her mother, that I thought this would happen. I had to say OK, because what could I do, let her be homeless? Don't you guys think I have ENOUGH to be worried about without the government wanting more of the pie?

BTW just so you know. I am not usually there, and I DID get a 4 bedroom house, one is an office, and she is staying in the guest bedroom. Still, SHE DRIVES ME NUTS! For the foreseeable future, she will be there when I am. I gave her a key ONLY because she insisted and it facilitated things when she wanted to visit.

So what will MY neighbors think?

Steve

[Patrician]

Originally Posted by JayXtreme

I love this bit ^^^

That one simple sentence is where the problem begins/ends... if people could just see that.

Peace

Jay

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Do not conflate rights with privileges, in the attempt to manufacture the former. Some of us know the difference.

Right and this matches one of my favorite quotes that is actually said by the guy who founded the first "FREE SCHOOL" - A.S. Neill, 'Summerhill'

"Freedom is not license"

In that context, this says just because you are "free" that does not give you the right to infringe on my rights.

It is obvious this is why there are rules against contentious subjects - not that the subject is bad - it is the insults that are the problem - and sometimes even in a passive-aggressive way that says those who do not agree/cannot see what we see are somehow less relevant.

[Michael Oksa]

Anyone else struck by this thread?

We are actually discussing things, instead of resorting to the tactics that got religion and politics banned from the OT.

If (I know it's a BIG if) we could all do that more often, we may have some really interesting discussions about the things that impact our lives in such a big way.

~M~

[KimW]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

EDIT: Believe it or not, I'm like Steven. I can talk about religion and politics with just about anybody, and pride myself on the ability to do so. But, again, once it devolves into calling ME names the conversation is over.

~M~

Michael,
I also feel I can talk about almost anything without it being personal. At least I try.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I've watched the way some people talk to each other in here, and it's pretty much soured me on doing business with anyone who posts in the political or religious threads that crop up despite the rules. I see damned few people who are able or willing to maintain a civil discourse on the issues, rather than jerking their knees every time something can be tied to one of their pet beliefs.


Paul

Paul,
I have to admit there are people that post here that I would not do business with, but there are also many that I would. I think I could name a handful of people that post on almost all the subjects of discussion here that I have seen not be rude and basically stay very on topic.

You are also correct that this behavior isn't relegated to this forum. I'm on several others that I see the behavior come out. Most of those forums you will see the thread deleted faster than you can wink. A lot of people don't appreciate what they have here.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, you probably count ME in that number. I'm not though. and HEY, this place is crazy to me also.

As for politics, I WISH people weren't so. And they always believe I am some white sexist racist christian conservative zealot. I just want to be left in peace. I don't ask for much, and want others to react in kind.

BTW I got a call from my mother yesterday. She did what I thought she would do for a few years now. SHE MOVED INTO MY HOUSE! I mentioned here, in a thread where someone talked about HER relations with her mother, that I thought this would happen. I had to say OK, because what could I do, let her be homeless? Don't you guys think I have ENOUGH to be worried about without the government wanting more of the pie?

BTW just so you know. I am not usually there, and I DID get a 4 bedroom house, one is an office, and she is staying in the guest bedroom. Still, SHE DRIVES ME NUTS! For the foreseeable future, she will be there when I am. I gave her a key ONLY because she insisted and it facilitated things when she wanted to visit.

So what will MY neighbors think?

Steve

Steve,
Who cares what your neighbors think? My mother is 85 years old and is living in the house that my father and little brother died in, with my little brother's ex girlfriend. A few years back she fell and fractured her hip and ever since then she has had to use a walker.
We have tried and tried to get her to move in with us because we would like her last few years to be as stress free as possible, but she refuses to move out of that house.
I would say enjoy the time with her while you can.
PS: You are crazy

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by KimW

Steve,
Who cares what your neighbors think? My mother is 85 years old and is living in the house that my father and little brother died in, with my little brother's ex girlfriend. A few years back she fell and fractured her hip and ever since then she has had to use a walker.
We have tried and tried to get her to move in with us because we would like her last few years to be as stress free as possible, but she refuses to move out of that house.
I would say enjoy the time with her while you can.
PS: You are crazy

I CARE! I'm not married, but I would like the option, etc... I live in a family area, and may be the ONLY single person there. THAT is bad enough.

And the guest bedroom is UPSTAIRS, so I hope she doesn't have to get a walker.

I CAN'T enjoy the time, that is the point.

BTW I'm glad you smiled when you said that.

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Anyone else struck by this thread?

We are actually discussing things, instead of resorting to the tactics that got religion and politics banned from the OT.

If (I know it's a BIG if) we could all do that more often, we may have some really interesting discussions about the things that impact our lives in such a big way.

~M~

Well, I will GLADLY stay away from it if others will. I REALLY bit my lip on that kennedy funeral thread!

[Paul Myers]

Kim,

I have to admit there are people that post here that I would not do business with, but there are also many that I would. I think I could name a handful of people that post on almost all the subjects of discussion here that I have seen not be rude and basically stay very on topic.

Some, yes. That's true. I should have qualified the comment. Thanks for the correction.

I would wager that some of the folks I find the most objectionable in terms of their behavior here probably think of themselves as being among those you describe.

Always works that way, though.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

Steve,

Well, I will GLADLY stay away from it if others will.

And if they won't... ?

It's got to start somewhere, Steve. The only place any of us can make a difference is in our own responses.


Paul

[myob]

Originally Posted by HeySal

PAUL - When I said collide, I didn't mean that it was like a train wreck - although I'm sure some stuff actually collided.
Yes only a handful of scientists right now have looked at that one string of stars and are purporting that it is likely residue from a colliding galaxy - but they happen to be the scientists that were involved in studying that particular phenomena.
Scientists don't all get together and agree on something before they announce their findings. They announce their findings, and sooner or later they are accepted globally, or the theories die or are disproven completely. Geesh. I tend to agree with the collision theory. I thought they presented the case very well and made much logical sense - much more than any other reason for that formation of stars holds. So if you would like to consider me wrong on the basis of what you just wrote - sorry about your luck. I took a year of astronomy myself in college and while that does not make me any form of expert in the subject, I am familiar enough with it to understand what they were saying and I think the theory is logical and more than highly probable.

We have some meteors that come in now and again that contain some completely unknown elements. Do you suppose that maybe those could come from the residue of a foreign galaxy that is constructed a bit different from our own? I do. So do some scientists. Who's to say? It's a BIG subject. So just because a new idea is not mainstream doesn't make it dismissable.

I also think it's a kick to ponder which of the galaxies of which earthlings are actually natural inhabitants. It's easy to change my mind, Paul - just prove the scientists studying the issue are wrong.

SAL

I did not say you are wrong at all. I said it was highly unlikely, meaning low probabability, nearly impossible, of science fiction genre, maybe even humorous, funny, silly and etc - but I certainly never said you are wrong. In the realm of possibilities, the probability is extremely low that any viable life form could survive the ride on a meteor traveling from another galaxy and impacting earth. The overwhelming evidence seems to be that life evolved here on earth from existing elements, not from any exobiologic injection. While there are examples of microbes surviving extremes, there is no evidence that I have seen to support any life form could survive such forces as a meteroic impact from another galaxy. That is what I consider to be so highly improbable that it could even be labeled as pure science fiction, unless you prove me wrong..

While not dismissing collisions at all (we witness collisions constantly) bombarding earth, the other planets, and galaxies. We really are, however, in a much grander sense, children of the stars; being a product of evolved star stuff as the cycle of the death of stars brings rebirth of new stars, suns, solar systems and galaxies over billions of years. There is high probability that there could be many millions of evolved life-supporting planets within the Milky Way Galaxy, and similarly in the hundreds of billions of other galaxies.

The evolution of life on earth was very dependent on the surreptious delivery of essential elements and even water from the collision of comets and meteors. It is highly probable that many of these bodies were gravitationally captured from other passing galaxies and even from the odd galactic collision. And this may not even be such a rare event in the cosmos. In this sense I agree that life came from other galaxies and in a very real sense we are all of extra-galactic origin. That is, the essential building blocks of life originated from the stars and collectively evolved on earth. We all really do have within us a bit of star dust from galaxies far, far away. On a scale of eons, you have come a long way, baby!

[Indiana]

Bonsoir...Excellent...-O)

On the subject of "Aliens" (extra terrestrial life forms)

Now I really do not know what to say about this subject...

I have studied the matter. Here is the playing field...



Since the first recorded sighting of UFOs back in 19th century
The UFOs have progressivly metamorphosied (changed shape)
as reported by observers.

In the 19th century a long zepplin, rocket type UFO was the norm.
Were as By the 1950s & 6os "Flying saucers" were the norm.

Now this is a curious phemonenom, this shape shifting business...
and bears much reflection...Mmmmm


OK the sheer weight of sighting of UFOs, on this planet preclude that it is not isolated cases of people with delusional halucinations..To put the "sightings" into perspective...

The scientist Carl Sagen et al, collected as data all the sightings they could,
size of UFO, colour, etc...Now if we assume the UFOs were constructed of metal...Then having corelated the data and and done the maths...Sagan
concluded that the content of a small star would be necessary in terms of elemental metal to provide the material for the construction of the UFOs sighted.

Now this is in its self perplexing...Causing rationality and logic to drift off the reichter scale...Now given the evidence it cannot be denied "something is happening" in respect of UFOs that is not evident eh!

So you see I am not sure what to say about this...Bit of a puzzler...Indy

[seasoned]

AW, I see what you are claiming......

CIGAR
DELTA WING
BELL
SAUCER

ALL were ideas done by the germans and americans, and probably others.

But you DO know the aliens have a confederation, right? Supposedly, they all have different spacecraft.

[Michael Oksa]

Yeah, the "shape shifting" is easy to explain.

This was all happening at the time when aeronautics were advancing rapidly. A zeppelin is the ONLY type of aircraft the earlier "sightings" could use to describe what they couldn't easily identify.

Then as aircraft evolved, so, too, did the descriptions of "sightings".

Also, ASSUMING UFOs are made of metal is not logical. That argument breaks apart from the moment it is put forth.

The sheer number of reports proves ONLY ONE thing: that there have been a lot of sightings. Nothing more.

Are all of the people delusional? Nope. Does that prove they have seen visitors from alien planets? Nope.

The cause and effect do not follow. But, logic ALWAYS takes a backseat when UFO sightings come into play.

~M~

[Indiana]

Bonsoir...
Correct Steve ...The shop window keeps changing, it presents the new, ala mode, in vouge, UFO image of the decade, "spot yours while stock last" -O)
Yep I know the have a Federation...I will be talking about "The Federation" replete with reptilans and greys further up the road...


Michael...I assume the UFOs are made of metal because of the following
which also lists some weird stuff relating to UFOs...

A comprehensive scientific review of physical evidence cases carried out by the 1998 Sturrock UFO panel, with specific examples of many of the categories listed below.

Radar contact and tracking, sometimes from multiple sites.
These may involve trained military personnel and control tower operators, simultaneous visual sightings, and aircraft intercepts. One such recent example were the mass sightings of large, silent, low-flying black triangles in 1989 and 1990 over Belgium, tracked by multiple NATO radar and jet interceptors, and investigated by Belgium's military (included photographic evidence).
Another famous case from 1986 was the JAL 1628 case over Alaska investigated by the FAA.

Photographic evidence, including still photos, movie film, and video.

Claims of physical trace of landing UFOs, including ground impressions, burned and/or desiccated soil, burned and broken foliage, magnetic anomalies, increased radiation levels, and metallic traces. See, e. g. Height 611 UFO Incident or the 1964 Lonnie Zamora's Socorro, New Mexico encounter of the USAF Project Blue Book cases). A well-known example from December 1980 was the USAF Rendlesham Forest Incident in England. Another less than two weeks later, in January 1981, occurred in Trans-en-Provence and was investigated by GEPAN, then France's official government UFO-investigation agency. Project Blue Book head Edward J. Ruppelt described a classic 1952 CE2 case involving a patch of charred grass roots.

Physiological effects on people and animals including temporary paralysis, skin burns and rashes, corneal burns, and symptoms superficially resembling radiation poisoning, such as the Cash-Landrum incident in 1980. One such case dates back to 1886, a Venezuelan incident reported in Scientific American magazine.

Animal/cattle mutilation cases, that some feel are also part of the UFO phenomenon.

Biological effects on plants such as increased or decreased growth, germination effects on seeds, and blown-out stem nodes (usually associated with physical trace cases or crop circles).

Electromagnetic interference (EM) effects. A famous 1976 military case over Tehran, recorded in CIA and DIA classified documents, resulted in communication losses in multiple aircraft and weapons system failure in an F-4 Phantom II jet interceptor as it was about to fire a missile on one of the UFOs. This was also a radar/visual case.

Remote radiation detection, some noted in FBI and CIA documents occurring over government nuclear installations at Los Alamos National Laboratory and Oak Ridge National Laboratory in 1950, also reported by Project Blue Book director Ed Ruppelt in his book.

Actual hard physical evidence cases, such as 1957, Ubatuba, Brazil, magnesium fragments analyzed by the Brazilian government and in the Condon Report and by others. The 1964 Socorro/Lonnie Zamora incident also left metal traces, analyzed by NASA.
A more recent example involves "the Bob White object" a tear drop shaped object recovered by Bob White and was featured in the TV show UFO hunters.



So Micheal given the metalic traces and radar sigs...its not really such a wild assumption eh -O)
Now 5% of all sightings "do not compute" meaning "yes
they are real and quite frankly the scientific establishment is clueless as to whats happening here...They admit it...Like I said Michael "bit of a puzzler"-O)

...Indy

[Michael Oksa]

Thanks Indy,

Radar is a good example. Craft that have been spotted by radar (MOST sightings have NOT) must be made of substances that can be picked up by radar. Metal falls into that category.

However, many, many more sightings have only been "eyewitness" accounts with NO radar.

When a scientist says they don't understand, or can't explain, that is NOT the same as saying the reverse is true. In other words, just because 5% of cases can't be explained, it just means they can't be expalined, it doesn't PROVE that they are aircraft from other planets.

Cattle mutilations, crop circles, "Classified documents", and EM interference are also not proof of anything - and only the EM interference would even border on the scientific.

Also, if 5% can't be explained, then by your own admission, 95% of "UFO" cases ARE explainable. Not a very good case for proving they exist if you ask me.

All the best,
Michael

[HeySal]

I said it was highly unlikely, meaning low probabability, nearly impossible, of science fiction genre, maybe even humorous, funny, silly and etc - but I certainly never said you are wrong. In the realm of possibilities, the probability is extremely low that any viable life form could survive the ride on a meteor traveling from another galaxy and impacting earth. The overwhelming evidence seems to be that life evolved here on earth from existing elements, not from any exobiologic injection. While there are examples of microbes surviving extremes, there is no evidence that I have seen to support any life form could survive such forces as a meteroic impact from another galaxy. That is what I consider to be so highly improbable that it could even be labeled as pure science fiction, unless you prove me wrong..

Hahahahahaha - You mistook what I was saying, Paul. In light of what you THOUGHT I was saying, yes, I would think that it was a pretty bizarre thought. BUT.........what I was saying is that it has been shown to be very scientifically likely that the Galaxies did "collide" - not sure what other word you want to use?....temporarily intersected, maybe might describe it, although I'm sure some stuff got bounced around somewhere......

And when I said we might be from that other galaxy, I also didn't mean we just fell onto the planet. Hahaha. What I meant was that our planet or solar system might have been part of the other galaxy when the intersection took place and we might have just stayed here due to gravitational forces rather than being pulled through and out with the rest of the galaxy - just like the residual string of stars and systems that drag below the arm are thought to have done. Not quite as exciting as thinking that maybe some of the residents of a planet that was headed for a real collision beaming down here.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Hahahahahaha - You mistook what I was saying, Paul. In light of what you THOUGHT I was saying, yes, I would think that it was a pretty bizarre thought. BUT.........what I was saying is that it has been shown to be very scientifically likely that the Galaxies did "collide" - not sure what other word you want to use?....temporarily intersected, maybe might describe it, although I'm sure some stuff got bounced around somewhere......

And when I said we might be from that other galaxy, I also didn't mean we just fell onto the planet. Hahaha. What I meant was that our planet or solar system might have been part of the other galaxy when the intersection took place and we might have just stayed here due to gravitational forces rather than being pulled through and out with the rest of the galaxy - just like the residual string of stars and systems that drag below the arm are thought to have done. Not quite as exciting as thinking that maybe some of the residents of a planet that was headed for a real collision beaming down here.

Personally, I think we're just the leftover of an intergalactic taffy pull.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Kim,Some, yes. That's true. I should have qualified the comment. Thanks for the correction.

I would wager that some of the folks I find the most objectionable in terms of their behavior here probably think of themselves as being among those you describe.

Always works that way, though.


Paul

There is also the possibility that some people will speak what they think and not give a rip who would refuse to do business with them because of their beliefs. I am one of those people. There are probably many in this forum who would not do business with me - but the reverse is true as well. I've always found the OT forum very conducive to finding people that I can get along with on a personal level - as well as ruling out a few. As long as the business runs professionally, it's a personal preference of mine to work with people I find interesting as human beings and who share my beliefs and concerns.

I could never work with a tinfoil hat screamer. I want partners who are aware of legislation activities and the implications of pending bills, rather than someone who only knows how to yell about tinfoil and sees no implications.

On the other hand - I wouldn't want to work with someone who decides that casting spells to make people purchase is preferable to advertising either.

[myob]

I will sell to anybody; no prejudices whatsoever and there is no need to be affinity-minded with me. Whether you are a space cadet, paranoid conspiracy nut, crazy doomsday whacko, spiritually holy, UFO abductee, radical political activist, anarchist, off-topic or non-sense babbler, secret agent, soothsayer, prophet, parolee, pervert, tinfoil hat screamer, opportunity seeker, or even a greedy capitalist pig (my personal favorite), we can do business.

I'm easy, and perhaps may even have the perfect product you are looking for! The only requirements needed to meet our high standards are that you must have a funded Paypal, Google Checkout, or Alert Pay account available to consummate the sale within their respective TOS. That's it. Most of our products are in stock, and ready to ship (at the moment earth or near orbit destinations only), although I do welcome inter-galactic joint venture inquiries. (Principals only, no agents).

[Mike Wright]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Hahahahahaha - You mistook what I was saying, Paul. In light of what you THOUGHT I was saying, yes, I would think that it was a pretty bizarre thought. BUT.........what I was saying is that it has been shown to be very scientifically likely that the Galaxies did "collide" - not sure what other word you want to use?....temporarily intersected, maybe might describe it, although I'm sure some stuff got bounced around somewhere......

And when I said we might be from that other galaxy, I also didn't mean we just fell onto the planet. Hahaha. What I meant was that our planet or solar system might have been part of the other galaxy when the intersection took place and we might have just stayed here due to gravitational forces rather than being pulled through and out with the rest of the galaxy - just like the residual string of stars and systems that drag below the arm are thought to have done. Not quite as exciting as thinking that maybe some of the residents of a planet that was headed for a real collision beaming down here.

Relevant link in the Nws today folks ...
"
Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

"
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Thanks Indy,

Radar is a good example. Craft that have been spotted by radar (MOST sightings have NOT) must be made of substances that can be picked up by radar. Metal falls into that category.

However, many, many more sightings have only been "eyewitness" accounts with NO radar.

When a scientist says they don't understand, or can't explain, that is NOT the same as saying the reverse is true. In other words, just because 5% of cases can't be explained, it just means they can't be expalined, it doesn't PROVE that they are aircraft from other planets.

Cattle mutilations, crop circles, "Classified documents", and EM interference are also not proof of anything - and only the EM interference would even border on the scientific.

Also, if 5% can't be explained, then by your own admission, 95% of "UFO" cases ARE explainable. Not a very good case for proving they exist if you ask me.

All the best,
Michael

Actually, pretty much ANYTHING can be picked up on radar. The stealth bomber is not even 100% invisible. Two features it has are the SCRAMBLING of radar waves, because of sharp corners, etc... and DECEPTION, trying to look like something else.

Besides, using your SAME logic, on can determine, and rightfully so, that the use of metal doesn't mean it is from here. HECK, it could be a shuttle made of ALUMINUM! I already said I don't think a ship made of such things could fly at the speed of light, but maybe it could INSIDE a vehicle, since its relative speed should be zero.

And UFOs DO exist! The 5% that aren't explained, and technically the 95% that "can" be, are UFOs! Of course, UFO doesn't mean "not of this planet"! Further, you KNOW most are from here. There is too much here, and too many things cause problems. So the fact that so many are from here means NOTHING!

AGAIN, I am playing. My statements here don't indicate belief that ANY are "not of this planet".

Steve

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Mike Wright

Relevant link in the Nws today folks ...
"
Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

"
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

Yep - that's what I was trying to tell them, Mike but:

highly unlikely, meaning low probabability, nearly impossible, of science fiction genre, maybe even humorous, funny, silly and etc

I don't know WHO that dude is.......but think I am in just fine company according to that article, whether I am hilarious or not.

[myob]

Originally Posted by Mike Wright

Relevant link in the Nws today folks ...
"
Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

"
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Galaxy's 'cannibalism' revealed

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yep - that's what I was trying to tell them, Mike but:

I don't know WHO that dude is.......but think I am in just fine company according to that article, whether I am hilarious or not.

HUH? What does this have to with OUR galaxy? Collisons DO happen, that's undeniable. In fact, our Milky Way Galaxy itself is on a collision course with the Andromeda galaxy and the Sagitarrius dwarf galaxy, but I have seen no proof that earth or any of its inhabitants are a product of any previous collision with another galaxy.

The premise is, yes it DOES happen. But my point was your conclusion is a bit of a stretch:

Originally Posted by HeySal

... I also think it's a kick to ponder which of the galaxies of which earthlings are actually natural inhabitants. It's easy to change my mind, Paul - just prove the scientists studying the issue are wrong ...

So tell me, enquiring minds really want to know; which scientists are studying the galactic immigration patterns of earthlings? I did not say you or your scientists are wrong at all, it's just highly unlikely ...

Originally Posted by myob

SAL
I did not say you are wrong at all. I said it was highly unlikely, meaning low probabability, nearly impossible, of science fiction genre, maybe even humorous, funny, silly and etc - but I certainly never said you are wrong. ...

[HeySal]

Paul - Some of the guys at NASA have already said that there is evidence that Sagittarius ALREADY collided with the MW. (that's Milky Way, not Mike Wright).
That's why there is that string of debris that PHNX was talking about being pulled
underneath the arm - it's not the arm itself, it's a string of collision debris....well,
according to their theories anyway. I am more in favor of believing their point of
view than anyone else's who is not a full fledged astronomer...they are the ones
with the spendy equipment and the space science degrees -- and there isn't
much of a political asset to thinking it is or isn't debris from a collision either way,
so if there's a motive or bias to saying that, I sure can't find it.

I also think that our solar system is a residual from the Sagittarius galaxy rather than
indigenous to the Milky Way - I think that because of stats, not because it was surmised by an actual astronomer. You may justly gaffaw at that view. I'm not a
scientist.....but I've been known to have a curious knack of turning out to be right in
the long run

[Mike Wright]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Paul - Some of the guys at NASA have already said that there is evidence that Sagittarius ALREADY collided with the MW. (that's Milky Way, not Mike Wright).
That's why there is that string of debris that PHNX was talking about being pulled
underneath the arm - it's not the arm itself, it's a string of collision debris....well,
according to their theories anyway. I am more in favor of believing their point of
view than anyone else's who is not a full fledged astronomer...they are the ones
with the spendy equipment and the space science degrees -- and there isn't
much of a political asset to thinking it is or isn't debris from a collision either way,
so if there's a motive or bias to saying that, I sure can't find it.

I also think that our solar system is a residual from the Sagittarius galaxy rather than
indigenous to the Milky Way - I think that because of stats, not because it was surmised by an actual astronomer. You may justly gaffaw at that view. I'm not a
scientist.....but I've been known to have a curious knack of turning out to be right in
the long run

LOL Sal, I am a Saggitarian .... strange but true

[myob]

Originally Posted by Mike Wright

LOL Sal, I am a Saggitarian .... strange but true

No, Mike. You belong to the Milky Way federation.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Paul - Some of the guys at NASA have already said that there is evidence that Sagittarius ALREADY collided with the MW. (that's Milky Way, not Mike Wright).
That's why there is that string of debris that PHNX was talking about being pulled
underneath the arm - it's not the arm itself, it's a string of collision debris....well,
according to their theories anyway. I am more in favor of believing their point of
view than anyone else's who is not a full fledged astronomer...they are the ones
with the spendy equipment and the space science degrees -- and there isn't
much of a political asset to thinking it is or isn't debris from a collision either way,
so if there's a motive or bias to saying that, I sure can't find it.

I also think that our solar system is a residual from the Sagittarius galaxy rather than
indigenous to the Milky Way - I think that because of stats, not because it was surmised by an actual astronomer. You may justly gaffaw at that view. I'm not a
scientist.....but I've been known to have a curious knack of turning out to be right in
the long run

Guffaw!

Keep in mind that this is part of PHNX and others who are still trying to force-fit psuedo science to match up with their deep belief in the Mayan calendar and some astronomical fireworks show on 12/21/2012. This is just not true, and trying to make it to be true by making up fake science to coincide with superstitous beliefs is not enlightening - it is more like medieval age thinking.

This kind of stuff comes and goes. Mostly goes, which is good. It’s silly pseudoscience of the highest order: all of the evidence points to the Sun being a native of the Milky Way (a native Sun!) But someone sees a 'scientific' article, doesn’t do any real research, jumps to any number of bad conclusions, ignores obvious refuting evidence, and then wraps up the nonsense in scientific-sounding jargon.

As with most pseudoscientific claims, this one has some truth to it. The Milky Way is indeed cannibalizing the Sagittarius galaxy, a much smaller galaxy. The MW is bigger, and so its gravity did rip the smaller galaxy up, turning into a long ribbon or stream of stars. It does intersect the MW, and the Sun is in fact near this intersection point. But, the composition of the Sun is vastly different from the stars in the Sagittarius galaxy; the Sun and solar system were already formed more than 4.5 billion years ago, while the first collission of Sagitarrius into the Milky Way was not until 2 billion years ago. Also, the angular momentum and orbits of the stars within the two galaxies are vastly different.

To say that our solar system is a residual from the Sagittarius galaxy collision rather than indigenous to the Milky Way is to ignore all the scientic evidence to the contrary.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are no Sagittarians around here.

[Indiana]

Salut...Hell its like "juggling soot" info pouring in, work load, ...Here we go...

Bonsoir...I interupt this UFO topic to bring you...The latest updates on;
The credit derivative situation...

The 1.6 quadrillion dollars of usless "Bankenstein" toxic trash is still out there still on "the other books"

Matrix reloaded...Remember "this is the real "problem"...Nothing else...Simple





Updated and expanded: Dr. Van de Meer predicts monetary collapse of US starting on September 30th

A private but extremely influential silent individual, Dr. Michael Van de Meer is the person predicting a financial collapse of the United States starting on September 30th. That is the end of the fiscal year and the final date for payments the Federal Reserve Board wants to act, but cannot, because it is in a catatonic state, as the leaders of every state in the world is.

There will also be indications on September the 16th, he informed me some ten months ago, “Although September 30th will be the tipping point at which the tree’s fate is determined, the branches will not hit the ground until October 7 and 27th and going on into November,” he says.

Dr. Van de Meer correctly predicted the financial panic that started in September of 2008 (also 10 months in advance) and has made many other accurate predictions.

In a separate confirmation the Chinese Government is no longer entertaining and investing in derivatives, and have declared a Nova-to, meaning they will not be paying the trillions “due” on these these illegal instruments. In fact the Chinese are using stronger language saying these criminally foisted instruments are a declaration of a financial war.

Meanwhile, in a significant break in corporate media censorship, the CBS TV program 60 minutes reported that Alan Greenspan, in concert with Bill Clinton and George Bush Senior facilitated in the year 2000, during the middle of the night, the passage of a criminal, highly illegal unconstitutional Bill that created the mortgage and property bubble. The bill allowed unscrupulous individuals in the major Banks and Insurance Corporations such as I.A.G. to hedge bets at a cent to the dollar. This allowed them to create derivatives contracts whose supposed face value runs into the quintillions of dollars (In either the British or American systems that is the next number after a quadrillion!) . On September 30th all these fiat numbers created out of nothing will no longer be accepted. Both China and Japan have not said they will only accept gold from America but they have none. Bernanke and Geithner are desperately calling the people who own the gold and asking for some but they have been told they will not get even one ounce.

The bundling of the worthless inflated dollars created a devaluation in the banking system and major banks went down in a domino spiral, the affects of which will be felt for many years around the world. The destruction of the world’s accounting system is so extreme that the tax base of every state and municipal government is strained, some house values have fallen 80%, farmers cannot get credit for parts, seed, fertilizers and water meaning many innocent people will pay, maybe even with their lives.

The Wall street banksters that own the Fed are being forced to put all their derivatives garbage on the books by September 30th. If they do that, they will be exposed as totally bankrupt.

The new financial system has been embraced by the Vatican, the British Empire and the Dragon family as well as the new Japanese government so it is hard to see how the Fed will be able meet the demands. Also people are now on to them and without secrecy their entire fiat con-job ceases to function.

There are still so many smart people, supposedly educated in “economics” and “finance,” who do not understand the true nature of the banking system that is now collapsing. People need to march on Washington by the millions to demand that the right to issue currency be returned to the people.

Those of us who are aware need to get as many people as possible to learn the truth about the Feds. The Federal Reserve Board is a conglomerate of 12 banks and the Rothschild family. They spew out trillions of worthless “Fiat” (out of nothing) dollars to the Americans and the world at large.

Please read what is on each dollar bill (this note is legal tender for debts, public and private) and try to explain to the public that means we are spending worthless debt dollars. We all need them to ask exactly who we owe this “debt” to.

Please call this number 1-800-595-6596 to order a book written by Edward Griffing entitled The Creature from Jekyll Island. It is guaranteed to anger you and make you demand change. It is about how the Feds took control of the US’s security by seizing the right to print and control money. It must be brought to your attention that the Federal Reserve is a hoax that has been insinuated on the US and the entire world by means of the contrived name “Federal Reserve.” Even people who have taken and MBA and have studied all the subjects taught at universities about “Finance” and “Economics” are led to believe the Fed is owned by the government, ie “we the people” when it is not. I was a financial journalist for 25 years and yet never learned this truth until recently. The fact is the Fed is a pariah institution created in the dead of the night in an empty Congress on Christmas eve in 1913. Close to a hundred years later they have put us in debt to the tune of quintillions of dollars, meaning theoretically we and our descendants will be debt slaves forever. This system must be brought to closure. The book will rivet you.

The book explains how a group of Europeans were able to steal the American people constitutionally given rights. Here are the names of these criminals.

1. Nelson W. Aldrich, business associate of J.P. Morgan and father in law of John Rockefeller Junior. :

2. Abraham Piat, assistant secretary of Treasury.

3. Frank A. Vanderlip: president of National Bank representing William Rockefeller and the banking and the banking house of Kuhn & Loeb & co.

4. Henry P. Davidson, partner to J.P. Morgan.

5. Charles D. Norton, president of J.P. Morgan’s " First National Bank.

6 Benjamin Strong, head of J. P. Morgan's First National Bankers Trust Company.

7. Paul M. Warburg, head of J.P. Morgan's Bankers and Trust company, a brother to Max Warburg , head of the Warburg consortium in Germany and the Netherlands, all representing the Rothschild's.

These people plotted their evil deed of enslaving the American people on Jekyll Island in Georgia, U.S.A. before returning to Europe. The compromised the America way of life by taking control of their money and the rights to create it. They then took control of all industry and created the tax code in 1914 to force Americans to pay for the compounded debts insinuated on them from that moment on. they would insinuated upon the american populace from that moment on. This was facilitated by the arch traitor Woodrow Wilson. We the people need to rid ourselves of the Pariah known as the Federal Reserve Bank. The people need to reverse this evil and start issuing real dollars again that are based on the good will of the American people and their ingenuity. The financial devaluation that has happened over the years has led to a loss of sovereignty for the American people and has caused untold calamity throughout the world.

To get the whole story order the 600-page “Creature from Jekyll Island at 1-800-595-6596. The hard cover copy is 36 dollars and the soft cover 20.

The new financial system that will replace the Fed will not allow any off ledger transactions nor any hedge funds or derivatives. Wall Street will not be allowed to as Dr. Van de Meer puts it to “do all their contrivances selling worthless air and paper and contrived named instruments that by their very names are comic to the ear. They have been gerrymandered to fool the millions who buy worthless stocks just like little old ladies in sneakers working slot machines”.

The American people who are 4% of the world’s population but consume 40% of the world’s resources have been paying for it all with illusory money. The illusion has burst and there will be a 90 degree fall in the value of money, followed by a lot of hard work as the country rebuilds itself back into greatness. Fortunately, by developing all the new technology that was suppressed by the Feds, the end result of the rebuilding will be a golden age for all. But remember, there will be no gain without pain. However, the Americans are resilient people and will pull together and be a more informed and strong nation once again. First though, they need to seek out this Wall Street crowd; tar and feather them, and run them out of the country on a rail.


BenjaminFulford?: Updated and expanded: Dr. Van de Meer predicts monetary collapse of US starting on September 30th

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The American people who are 4% of the world’s population but consume 40% of the world’s resources have been paying for it all with illusory money. The illusion has burst and there will be a 90 degree fall in the value of money, followed by a lot of hard work as the country rebuilds itself back into greatness. Fortunately, by developing all the new technology that was suppressed by the Feds, the end result of the rebuilding will be a golden age for all. But remember, there will be no gain without pain. However, the Americans are resilient people and will pull together and be a more informed and strong nation once again. First though, they need to seek out this Wall Street crowd; tar and feather them, and run them out of the country on a rail.

I never thought about it in those terms. But 4%? after you get rid of those here by illegal means, it is more like 2.4%! And 40% of the resources? After you get rid of those here by illegal means, foreign interests, and exports, I really DOUBT it! Of course, I am talking REAL resources, plants, minerals, and land, NOT money. But who knows about the money?

One thing about it. If the money IS devalued like that, the administration can kiss its rear GOODBYE! Who knows HOW the americans would act? ALSO, a lot of those here by illegal means, as I mentioned above, would probably LEAVE!

Of course, I am NOT disputing anything else you said. 1999, for example, was a CONSPIRACY! 1987 was a CONSPIRACY! and, after 1999, I PREDICTED a realestate collapse if they continued on their current course. They DID, and it happened. Of course, if they get rid of the stockmarket, WHO owns the companies? HOW can the companies run? What happens to all that money.(Granted, it is only paper but STILL, people worked for it!)

ALSO, one other little thing. The time the collapse usually happens? Between september and october! It also USUALLY happens 2 years before a presidents last term.(That MIGHT have to do with congress) Out of those shown above, only the LAST broke that pattern, and IT was pretty much a given. the OCTOBER 1929 one was THREE years before hoovers last term. Well, if this fits the 1929 pattern, obama may see the same thing happen.

Steve

[Michael Oksa]

If you want to sell something, even your tired political agenda, why not pay for a WSO like everyone else?

[Michael Oksa]

Please read what is on each dollar bill (this note is legal tender for debts, public and private) and try to explain to the public that means we are spending worthless debt dollars. We all need them to ask exactly who we owe this “debt” to.

Please understand what that means. All that means is that the currency can be used to pay for goods and services. Seriously. Before you start making accusations, at least try to understand.

Please call this number 1-800-595-6596 to order a book written by Edward Griffing entitled The Creature from Jekyll Island. It is guaranteed to anger you and make you demand change.

Actually, what really makes me angry is when someone comes into the WF and chooses to consistently IGNORE the rules. That's a slap in the face to Allen and the Forum, IMHO. Also, what makes me angry is when someone tells me what to buy. I beive there is also a rule that says if we want to sell something, then we need to do so in the WSO or Classified section. So, YES I would like to demand a change - but it has nothing to do with the book you're pimping.

This was facilitated by the arch traitor Woodrow Wilson.

Pleas tell me how that's not political?

Meanwhile, in a significant break in corporate media censorship, the CBS TV program 60 minutes reported that Alan Greenspan, in concert with Bill Clinton and George Bush Senior facilitated in the year 2000, during the middle of the night, the passage of a criminal, highly illegal unconstitutional Bill

LOL, do you really have any idea how our political system works? Why would they have to do it in the middle of the night?

So, as I keep saying - political topics are forbidden here, but I will not report this thread. For some reason I seem to be the only one who cares that certain people keep spouting their political viewpoints (right or wrong), and when I try to do my DUTY as a responsible member of the WF I get called names.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. Do you hate capitalism? It's a serious question, that's the impression I get, but I don't want to assume one way or the other.

[myob]

Originally Posted by Indiana

...
The fact is the Fed is a pariah institution created in the dead of the night in an empty Congress on Christmas eve in 1913...

This money printing job is bound by a higher power, and actually is only a 99 year lease which will expire on or about 12/21/2012. According to the Maya calendar we will enter into a new world order of something like a harmonic convergence or convulsion. All debts, public and private will be wiped out along with most of the population.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by myob

This money printing job is bound by a higher power, and actually is only a 99 year lease which will expire on or about 12/21/2012. According to the Maya calendar we will enter into a new world order of something like a harmonic convergence or convulsion. All debts, public and private will be wiped out along with most of the population.

Thanks Paul. That makes a lot more sense when you put it that way.

~M~

[seasoned]

In honesty, I was looking at only the main points. You DO make some good points BUT.....

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Please understand what that means. All that means is that the currency can be used to pay for goods and services. Seriously. Before you start making accusations, at least try to understand.

You're WRONG! It is a BOND of sorts! It works EXACTLY like a zero coupon bond. EXACTLY!!!!! The REAL currency, the OLD stuff, was actually REDEEMABLE for a SET amount of gold or silver. NOW, like a zerocoupon bond, it can change ALL OVER! BTW zerocoupon bond values DROP when inflation goes up, and increase when it goes down, JUST like a dollar! The amount of gold you can buy with a dollar DROPS when inflation goes up, and increases when it goes down. SERIOUSLY, CHECK IT OUT! with the OLD dollar, the value would NOT decrease with inflation.

BTW currency is called currency. Bonds are called NOTES! In a way, you could read that statement as "this bond is legal tender for all debts...". MOST bonds probably have coupons but, obviously, zeroccoupon bonds DON'T!

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Actually, what really makes me angry is when someone comes into the WF and chooses to consistently IGNORE the rules. That's a slap in the face to Allen and the Forum

This IS a biit different. Allen may even be ok with this kind of thing.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

IMHO. Also, what makes me angry is when someone tells me what to buy. I beive there is also a rule that says if we want to sell something, then we need to do so in the WSO or Classified section. So, YES I would like to demand a change - but it has nothing to do with the book you're pimping.

You DO have a point there, but is he even the one profiting from the book?

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Pleas tell me how that's not political?

Again, you have a point.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

LOL, do you really have any idea how our political system works? Why would they have to do it in the middle of the night?

Another point. What greenspan did, he actually did IN FRONT OF CONGRESS! The EXACT reason was hidden in spin. For example he said the stock market was going up too fast and there were too many buyers, and he had to mitigate it, or some DRECK like that! AFTER the fact you realize the crash WAS HIS INTENT! Mentoining greenspan goes BEYOND democrat and republican, since he was supported by BOTH parties. In a way, THAT is suspicious in itself. I don't REALLY like the republicans either. It only SEEMS that way.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

So, as I keep saying - political topics are forbidden here, but I will not report this thread. For some reason I seem to be the only one who cares that certain people keep spouting their political viewpoints (right or wrong), and when I try to do my DUTY as a responsible member of the WF I get called names.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. Do you hate capitalism? It's a serious question, that's the impression I get, but I don't want to assume one way or the other.

Gee, can't YOU relax? I emphasized that because people usually ask ME to!

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Please understand what that means. All that means is that the currency can be used to pay for goods and services. Seriously. Before you start making accusations, at least try to understand.

Actually, what really makes me angry is when someone comes into the WF and chooses to consistently IGNORE the rules. That's a slap in the face to Allen and the Forum, IMHO. Also, what makes me angry is when someone tells me what to buy. I beive there is also a rule that says if we want to sell something, then we need to do so in the WSO or Classified section. So, YES I would like to demand a change - but it has nothing to do with the book you're pimping.

Pleas tell me how that's not political?

LOL, do you really have any idea how our political system works? Why would they have to do it in the middle of the night?

So, as I keep saying - political topics are forbidden here, but I will not report this thread. For some reason I seem to be the only one who cares that certain people keep spouting their political viewpoints (right or wrong), and when I try to do my DUTY as a responsible member of the WF I get called names.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. Do you hate capitalism? It's a serious question, that's the impression I get, but I don't want to assume one way or the other.

BTW definitions of zerocoupon bonds, like this:

Zero-coupon bond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

are overly simplistic. OBVIOUSLY, nobody buys a bond for nothing. Zero Coupon bonds generally show the price they should have at maturity. If inflation goes up, its interest rate becomes less attractive, and people want to pay less for it to drive the effective rate higher. They DO have a maturity date, but they can be called at a discount, etc.... AGAIN, often driven by inflation. The bond market is MORE secure than the stock market, but NOT secure. Just look at milken! Michael Milken - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia He was basically, after all is said and done, thrown in jail for saying that bonds WERE secure. He sold HIGH interest bonds that were SO bad that they came to be nicknamed "JUNK BONDS", and he was called "the JUNK BOND king"!

[Michael Oksa]

Yeah, you're right Steve.

I think the way I'm treated in the OT is a bunch of BS. Maybe I'm taking it personally, maybe I'm too sensitive. But what irks me the most is being called names for exercising my duty as a moderator.

In reality, I think the people here should be yelling at those who consistently BREAK the rules, not yelling at those who report them.

Anyway, it's obvious that I'm not cut out for the OT in my current state of health.

So, I am taking a break from it for 1-3 months.

See, then you won't have anyone here doing what they're supposed to.

Have fun while I'm gone.

All the best,
Michael

[myob]

Nothing here should be taken so seriously. This thread was just a joke intended for nonsense, and political and religious satire. I don't see how this violates the rules whatsoever. And I really do enjoy all of Indy's threads and posts - great for laughs and they always brighten up my day.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Yeah, you're right Steve.

I think the way I'm treated in the OT is a bunch of BS. Maybe I'm taking it personally, maybe I'm too sensitive. But what irks me the most is being called names for exercising my duty as a moderator.

In reality, I think the people here should be yelling at those who consistently BREAK the rules, not yelling at those who report them.

Anyway, it's obvious that I'm not cut out for the OT in my current state of health.

So, I am taking a break from it for 1-3 months.

See, then you won't have anyone here doing what they're supposed to.

Have fun while I'm gone.

All the best,
Michael

Regarding YOUR health, I am certainly NOT passing judgements. My father had a similar problem to yours about 12 years ago. I KNEW what was happening, but he and I had a falling out, and he wouldn't listen to me ANYWAY. He would ask me for advice, speak about how I amazed him by what I knew, etc... but just not listen. His wife ended up FORCING him to go to the hospital. I saw him STRUGGLE on oxygen, etc.... He is ok today. Typically, they do what they did with him, and use veins from the legs to BYPASS problem areas. Outside of diet, they usually say exercise, eat greens, etc...

With ME, I COULD have been lumped with such people, and possibly died like John Ritter. HE died because he thought he needed a bypass, and let people pass him. Meanwhile, they gave him drugs that WOULD have helped if he needed a bypass. Anyway, I needed a new aorta and aortic valve, so I had to have an artificial one. They ttell me to AVOID strenuous exercise and greens. I am in a cardiac group that represents LESS than .02% of the total, and it is ignored. LUCKILY, I didn't need oxygen, but I have to take drugs for the rest of my life. I CONSTANTLY check myself to see if I have lost any ability. Happily, I really haven't. My right hemisphere DOES show signs of being exposed to a stroke though.

HEY, I haven't called you names, or sad anything bad about you. I only wish you the best. I just think you are a LITTLE too strict, etc...

TELL YOU WHAT! If things get out of hand, I'll start reporting. I DID report one person this year, and am close to reporting another. GRANTED I push politics a bit. It just IRKS me, but if you think about it, you will realize I HAVE been VERY quiet lately. Besides, that is the LEAST of the problems here. And the two people I spoke of earlier were NOT talking about politics!

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by myob

This money printing job is bound by a higher power, and actually is only a 99 year lease which will expire on or about 12/21/2012. According to the Maya calendar we will enter into a new world order of something like a harmonic convergence or convulsion. All debts, public and private will be wiped out along with most of the population.

Did you hear? A book illustrating nostradamuses quatraines(sp?) was found. It is claimed that it was created by his son, Caesar. Piecing everything together, I found what they left out of the story. It said that the end of this planet was to happen sometime between 1992 and 2012 after a solar eclipse after 3 lunar eclipses. That means 2012 between 11/13 and 12/31! 12/21 just HAPPENS to be between that. BTW the LATEST that that book could have been written is about 200 years ago. They determined that through the paper. The ink on the last page DOES indicate about 1800, but the rest could have easily been written about 1500. That is consistant with EVERYTHING! Even the idea of the 1800 date is ONLY because such ink was EXPENSIVE. Well, it WAS an opulent time by an opulent agency, so the expense doesn't really mean so much.

ALSO, it is interesting that this event only happens about every 13000 years, and COULD cause a LOT of natural events to occur.

Steve

[myob]

Yes I heard. It is so true - bovine excretions has remained a relatively consistent composition throughtout the centuries. This confirms that bulls are well-known for consistently excreting the same kind of bull crap no matter what the source of input.

[Indiana]

Micheal let be perfectly clear here...This is a topic about finance and the global financial status quo...The state of affairs; The 1.6 quadrillion (1600 Trillion)dollars of credit derivatives is " Real", is carried as "assets" on the books of various banks, hedge funds,and financial institutions...) (Amount from government figures)

The global financial market place has lost all confidence in these "exotic financial instruments" the first to crack was Swiss Re the second largest reinsurer in the world, who scrapped its own investment bank and in the process has written down its derivatives 'assets' to their correct value:

*ZERO*."

**************************************************
"Swiss Re tumbled 28 percent after it posted a full-year net loss of about 1 billion Swiss francs and said U.S. investor Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway was investing 3 billion Swiss francs ($2.63 billion) in the company.

Swiss Re wrote down twice that amount in toxic assets and said it would consider further equity raising of up to 2 billion francs."

FRANKFURT, Feb 5 (Reuters).
**************************************************
Swiss Re borrowed money to get out from under this Global ripoff...Thus saving themselves
from total bankrupcy only a billion in losses set against their profits...It is reported that JP Morgan Chase has 90 trillion dollars of this festering garbage on its books, can't very well write that off under present solvency laws. So "Houston we have a problem" because the chinese Gov/nation is now blowing the whistle on the credit derivs ponzi scheme and that may be game set and match...Boomsville...Make no mistake if this happens it will take everything else with it...Its what "killed Lehman brothers"..
************************************************** *
"The worst financial scandal in history. It dwarfs 1929, Ponzi's scheme, Teapot Dome, the South Sea Bubble, tulip bulbs, you name it. Bernie Madoff? He's peanuts."

James Lieber"
**************************************************
So some Direct questions for you Micheal...


Do you belive this situation ?

What is your opinion of this Situation ?

Any ideas ?

Because to quote Howard Schweber Associate Professor of Political Science and Law at the University of Wisconsin-Madison... "What's the plan?"...

Now Michael I really do not believe that Ben Fulford was trying to sell you a book I sincerly
believe he was trying to be "helpful" to people who may not really understand what he is impliying about the Fedral reserve...However by being affronted and vexed that Ben suggest you read a book you have totally miniturised the topic to micoscopic proportions...You have provided nothing to the real situation...As well Ben provides some solutions which are of course his personal opinions...They sound political in a broad sense...Yet I have posted this report because it is the most consice and pertinant info on this subject to date...Sincerly Micheal I cannot censor another mans words to suit...What was published was a "report" with a link to source it was not another warrior posting political ideaology...Stay cool...Understand
address the real topic...Regards...Indy

[seasoned]

WOW SWISS RE! I just HAPPENED to have worked on two of their projects.** I ALSO worked for lincoln, which had LINCOLN RE which was sold to SWISS RE! And WHAT do the "RE brothers"* do? RE-INSURANCE! They basically insure the insurers. They are to insurers regarding insurance what the fed-funds system is to banks regarding loans.

BTW Swiss RE IS a SWISS company, but Lincoln RE was AMERICAN, and Swiss RE DOES handle AMERICAN insurance. They have JUST as much exposure as American companies.

Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway owns GEICO, and they may well use SWISS RE!

Steve

* I said RE brothers to be funny. RE is kind of a key word(or abbreviation) meanng REinsurance.

** the two projects I worked on were tieing lincoln re into THEIR system, and their GAAP system. BTW their armonk NY office is NICE!

[HeySal]

So Indy - explain something to me, if you can. I really tried to get FH to answer this before he wandered off to wherever....School me here a bit......
Under the paper fiat system the FED has us set up under - there is NO way to pay off the debt - the interest never existed in the first place so can't be paid, all it can do is increase. Now FDR knew that and when he bankrupted us (I won't get into the collateral - that gets way touchy with politics) knowing that we couldn't pay back the debt and that it would increase exponentially - he had structured the loan to expire instead. Well, it expired last year and instead of being put to rest and having our gold standard replaced and the debt dissolved in the US we got the bailout veneer, and god knows what terms as they were never revealed and only the treasury knows the terms that were used. I've been looking at figures and don't see anywhere that the original debt was neutralized as it should have been in 2008 when it expired and don't see how they managed to not cancel that loan when they wrote the bailout and restructured the treasury.
Um...WTF?

[Indiana]

As far as I understand the situation Sally...Yes the debt has expired.
The country "The republic of the USA" is discharged from it bankrupcy.

The corporation (business entity) refered to as "The democracy of USA" The "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"
has no longer any legal right, mandate, or authority, over the people of the republic of the USA...Election or not...See below



"I hope I did not overdo the forwarding of DUN & BRADSTREET listings of government units, offices, agencies, and instrumentalities. My intent was to give you a broad cross-section so that there could be no doubt about the search results regarding the complete ‘federalization’ or ‘corporatization’ of the purported ‘government’. This is the point that I was trying to make to Mr. Story: Nothing about the “United States” or “UNITED STATES” is as it appears or is commonly presumed to be. It is a ‘de facto’ ‘doctrine of necessity’ by ‘occupation’ in ‘bankruptcy’ operating for the benefit of undisclosed third-party Principals who also allege to be Holders in Due Course as “Prime Creditors”. Lawful government was deconstructed when after the Civil War the states and the ten southern states were ‘Reconstructed’ during and within the Reconstruction Acts.

The current form of ‘government’ has nothing to do with lawful ‘government’ or ‘governance’ of/by/for the people or the de jure union of several American states. Every aspect of the idea of ‘government’ has been incorporated and operates as an implied ‘resultant’ equity constructive TRUST and commercial franchise of the UNITED STATES, having no fixed or pre-determined rules to run by, because the organic rules operated ‘without the United States’-District of Columbia, ‘within the United States of America’, which is a diverse and distinctly different entity at law in commerce.

This subject can be elaborated ad nauseam, but the gist is what you have already summarized and concluded. How can a corporate executive of a non-Constitutional entity be held accountable to his actions under a Constitutional standard, where there is no one in any aspect of the same CORPORATION that has authority to do so? Furthermore, the CORPORATION itself has no nexus to the Organic Constitution for the United States of America, where exist the only mechanisms and constructs for ‘lawful government’ and protections of un/in-a-lien-able Rights under the Bill of Rights. The CORPORATION is itself an abomination. See my forward of the Federal Convention 1787, September 14. The state delegates voted on the motion to delegate authority to Congress to incorporate or to grant charters of incorporation, and it was explicitly rejected.

S"

However...Towards the end of the "contract" the employees of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA became to clever, to greedy, and to quote the chinese "Criminal" they foisted onto the global market "credit derivatives" and pulled in a lot of cash for worthless paper.

"A bridge to far" to greedy, now they ride the tiger and cannot dismount without being devoured by their own ponzi scheme...So no commitment to the return of "The republic"

"Lets bankrupt the rabble again" then its business as usual. New FDR deal...We are safe...The plebs can then continue to crow "we live in the land of the free and the brave". When they live in a system that trades their social security number at birth
for $40,000 as an asset of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...The employees of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA..Are and I repeat without Mandate, right, or juristriction
over the we the people of the Republic of the United states of America...Which has now legaly, technically, returned to the constitution...Liberty, equality, fraternity,...Indy

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HeySal

So Indy - explain something to me, if you can. I really tried to get FH to answer this before he wandered off to wherever....School me here a bit......
Under the paper fiat system the FED has us set up under - there is NO way to pay off the debt - the interest never existed in the first place so can't be paid, all it can do is increase. Now FDR knew that and when he bankrupted us (I won't get into the collateral - that gets way touchy with politics) knowing that we couldn't pay back the debt and that it would increase exponentially - he had structured the loan to expire instead. Well, it expired last year and instead of being put to rest and having our gold standard replaced and the debt dissolved in the US we got the bailout veneer, and god knows what terms as they were never revealed and only the treasury knows the terms that were used. I've been looking at figures and don't see anywhere that the original debt was neutralized as it should have been in 2008 when it expired and don't see how they managed to not cancel that loan when they wrote the bailout and restructured the treasury.
Um...WTF?

Heysal,

Until recently, the US Dollar has been a defacto currency since about 1913 or so. It is just like the former bank notes. The bank notes were redeemable in their member banks, and some other places, and the US DOLLAR can be exchanged through an agreement with several large nations based on "the full faith and credit of the U.S.". Although it IS true that inflation devalues any credit behind the dollar and, thus, reduces CURRENT debt, it ALSO increases NEW debt and devalues current funds elsewhere. THAT is why we can't simply print up a few million million dollar bills, and be done with the debt.

I am unaware of any set retirement of the debt. That really CAN'T be possible, because that would mean calling treasury bills and savings bonds, and send the credit of the US into a tailspin. That would destroy the country. Then again, they did that with bonds and stock of GM, so who knows. There is USUALLY someone that will continue to, as jim straw put it, buy the burning match.

All this is IRONIC since they SELL treasury bills and savings bonds to get dollars to pay off a debt measured in dollars to support dollars. The other governments power THEIR worthless currency by buying ours, and vice/versa!

BTW interesting little fact! Put all this stuff together, and it says PONZI scheme, except they have a bunch of SLAVES powering it. Slaves like ME! Is it any wonder I HATE politicians and lawyers!?!?!?

Steve

[HeySal]

However...Towards the end of the "contract" the employees of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA became to clever, to greedy, and to quote the chinese "Criminal" they foisted onto the global market "credit derivatives" and pulled in a lot of cash for worthless paper.

Okay - THanks, I see what they did. ($%#@) bastards.

I am unaware of any set retirement of the debt. That really CAN'T be possible, because that would mean calling treasury bills and savings bonds, and send the credit of the US into a tailspin. That would destroy the country.

And you don't see any destruction going on?

Yes - there was an expiration date on the debt - the people that put that in place weren't stupid and neither was FDR - they KNEW it couldn't be paid off, ever, under their fiat system. The reason so few realize there was a retirement date is the same reason why it took over 60 years for people to start realizing that the FED isn't a branch of government, LOL. Now I knew if they passed the bailout we were done as a free economy - but couldn't figure out how they were running that the original debt wasn't expired as it was set up to do. Now I understand. It actually was - just nobody told us or they wouldn't have gotten the bailout farce off the ground.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HeySal

And you don't see any destruction going on?

Not on the level I was talking about. Of course, it would take 4 waves for the average american to see it. They are TALKING about starting the FIRST wave.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yes - there was an expiration date on the debt - the people that put that in place weren't stupid and neither was FDR - they KNEW it couldn't be paid off, ever, under their fiat system. The reason so few realize there was a retirement date is the same reason why it took over 60 years for people to start realizing that the FED isn't a branch of government, LOL. Now I knew if they passed the bailout we were done as a free economy - but couldn't figure out how they were running that the original debt wasn't expired as it was set up to do. Now I understand. It actually was - just nobody told us or they wouldn't have gotten the bailout farce off the ground.

WHY would anyone allow a simple expiration?

[myob]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Not on the level I was talking about. Of course, it would take 4 waves for the average american to see it. They are TALKING about starting the FIRST wave.

Some of us as investors are making tons with each wave. The financial markets are recovering, and the DOW is currently down by only 12% from its high of a year ago. It was indeed a wild ride, but most people would have been fine if they had only held on to their stocks. (Well, except for GM) Getting ready now for the next "wave".

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by myob

Some of us as investors are making tons with each wave. The financial markets are recovering, and the DOW is currently down by only 12% from its high of a year ago. It was indeed a wild ride, but most people would have been fine if they had only held on to their stocks. (Well, except for GM) Getting ready now for the next "wave".

Sure people are making money, Paul - but with GM as an example, nobody can ever be real sure about KEEPING what they make. Once a potential is great enough, government can just seize it. If you look at the GM annual reports you can almost see the internal grab by the CEOs and other top execs. All that was needed was to replace the embezzlers and other crooks to get it working more efficiently. The real corker in this one is that right now the import market is getting stronger since the take over.

Look at gold. Everyone is buying it. There is a law from 1917 prohibiting the public from owning gold. That law has been suspended, but it was never repealed. Any time the Gov wants to they can step in and seize every bit of gold the public owns with no more legislation that a reactivation of the law. So right now people are making money hand over fist on metals......but what happens when the law is reactivated? Just hope your wedding band is platinum.

Of course, in the matter of gold, they don't just take it (or aren't supposed to anyway) they pay you for it........using all that worthless paper you used metals to go around.

There are around 200 laws on the books right now that allow the gov to seize your assets. Do you know them all and know how to avoid seizure?
Of course, I'm sure we all know if you sell drugs and are caught that your property is gone - but that is only one law out of scores. Anyone can make money -- it's keeping it that is becoming the real dog and pony show issue.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by myob

Some of us as investors are making tons with each wave. The financial markets are recovering, and the DOW is currently down by only 12% from its high of a year ago. It was indeed a wild ride, but most people would have been fine if they had only held on to their stocks. (Well, except for GM) Getting ready now for the next "wave".

I meant the wave of the ponzi scheme!!!!!! There are several levels....

1. I accept the dollar ONLY because local people do.
2. THEY accept it because they can exchange it with companies/banks
3. THEY accept it because they can exchange it ABROAD
4. THEY accept it because they want some things here, it is SOMEWHAT stable, and some things can only be bought with it abroad.

The waves work in REVERSE!!!!!! Like a spring, the last or outside comes undone first. They are talking about not demonating things in dollars, and the G7 has lost power. If that stops, #4 is as good as DEAD! If THAT happens, #3 goes! If that happens, #2 goes! If that happens, #1 is a given! BTW if that happens, Google could sell for a TRILLION dollars a share and EVEN if you had 1000 shares, you would be BROKE!

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Sure people are making money, Paul - but with GM as an example, nobody can ever be real sure about KEEPING what they make. Once a potential is great enough, government can just seize it. If you look at the GM annual reports you can almost see the internal grab by the CEOs and other top execs. All that was needed was to replace the embezzlers and other crooks to get it working more efficiently. The real corker in this one is that right now the import market is getting stronger since the take over.

Look at gold. Everyone is buying it. There is a law from 1917 prohibiting the public from owning gold. That law has been suspended, but it was never repealed. Any time the Gov wants to they can step in and seize every bit of gold the public owns with no more legislation that a reactivation of the law. So right now people are making money hand over fist on metals......but what happens when the law is reactivated? Just hope your wedding band is platinum.

Of course, in the matter of gold, they don't just take it (or aren't supposed to anyway) they pay you for it........using all that worthless paper you used metals to go around.

There are around 200 laws on the books right now that allow the gov to seize your assets. Do you know them all and know how to avoid seizure?
Of course, I'm sure we all know if you sell drugs and are caught that your property is gone - but that is only one law out of scores. Anyone can make money -- it's keeping it that is becoming the real dog and pony show issue.

They pay what amounts to a handling fee! they DON'T pay spot, or anywhere near it. Right now, they pay less than 4% of spot!!!!!!!!!

Steve

[myob]

Sal, you are so right! Those things could happen, but being a betting man I know that the greater the risk the greater are the rewards. I lost a whole LOT of money when GM went bellyup, which I thought was a sure thing. However, in the last few months I more than made up that loss many times over in other stocks and investments.

You say everyone is buying gold, it may be true, but I'm selling it (actually the paper it's printed on). Some experts say the price of gold could even top $3,100, a sure thing, but holding out for that kind of return is beyond both my patience and inclination towards that probability.

There is nothing risk-free. It is indeed possible for the government to come and take everything, just as it is always possible to lose everything. I have experienced both; having made and lost more money in the past 10 years (with help from the IRS) with my risk-taking than most risk-averse timid people like you have earned in 10 lifetimes. The most successful manage risk and accept a certain level of risk that offers a high level of return.

And could the US go bankrupt? For years some here have been saying it has happened already, and it is going down in flames. Yes, I agree there is a risk that this could happen, and we all could be reduced to scavaging animals just to survive. But on the other hand, the Mayan prophecies of the events of 2012 could also end everything before we have even time to enjoy economic collapse.

Anything can happen, but being a calculating, risk-managing crap-shooter, I say go for all the opportunities that are before you.