More TOUGH football coming......

15 years ago

As a fan of American football I hear this all the time.
Do this Ron.
Find someone who weights around 260, is all muscle and can run the 40 in about 4 sec.
Now have them stand about 20 meters from you, turn your back on them, and have them run at you full speed leaving the ground at the last moment and planting their shoulder in the small of your back.
Now get up and do it again.
That's why our football players wear padding.
If your so called tough football players played the game like ours do, they wouldn't last 5 minutes without padding.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

As a fan of American football I hear this all the time.
Do this Ron.
Find someone who weights around 260, is all muscle and can run the 40 in about 4 sec.
Now have them stand about 20 meters from you, turn your back on them, and have them run at you full speed leaving the ground at the last moment and planting their shoulder in the small of your back.
Now get up and do it again.
That's why our football players wear padding.
If your so called tough football players played the game like ours do, they wouldn't last 5 minutes without padding.

Exactly. The pads make it more violent. Anyone that says different has never gotten a helmet in the kidneys.

Not to mention the difference in speed. As we know, speed is the most important aspect of the energy equation. I'll bet the fastest Austrailian football player isn't in the top 100 NFL players as far as speed is concerned.

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garyv 15 years ago

Yes this looks pretty tame to me....

YouTube - NFL Hard Hits

lol
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- Michael Oksa 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by garyv
  
  Yes this looks pretty tame to me....
  
  YouTube - NFL Hard Hits
  
  lol
  
  Awesome video.
  
  I lost track, but some of those hits would be 15 yard penalties.
  
  Maybe, what, a couple hundred yards toal?
  
  LOL
  
  Good stuff.
  
  ~M~
  
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  ThomM 15 years ago
  
  I think the Australian game sounds like it would be fun to watch. It sounds tough in its own way.
  
  I've seen it on ESPN a few times Mike.
  It is fun to watch, even not really understanding the game.
  They are tough, no doubt about that.
  
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Kurt

15 years ago

Again, telling me that Amreican football players aren't tough is a joke.

As far as touchdown celebrations, ironic you post this on Saturday. Today is when the college football games are played, and they aren't allowed to celebrate after a touchdown, plus they don't get paid. There's colleges, like Michigan and Tennesse, that have stadiums of 100,000+, and have sold out every game for generations, not just for a championship.

I've yet to meet an immigrant to the US that was a sports fan that didn't love American football once they understood what the game was about. And as an ex cab driver, I knew a lot of immigrants. LOL

But if I want REALLY tough, I'll watch MMA...

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

They are different sports, and are both tough.

If you put a rugby player into an NFL line-up with RUGBY padding, then yes, he will look tougher. BUT you could just as easily reverse the situation in a way that makes the NFL player look tougher.

Who cares?

I think the Australian game sounds like it would be fun to watch. It sounds tough in its own way. Unfortunately, I have no idea how I can watch it on American TV. If I could, I would be happy to check it out.

By the way, The USFL is poised to make a comeback. I hope it lasts this time. I love football. Even NFL Europe (now defunct), and Arena Football, the USFL will be another choice.

It will have some different rules, too.

How about a 4 point field goal?

It's still being developed, but there are currently two poll questions you can answer.

NewUSFL

Play ball!
Michael

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monaroCountry

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

I think the Australian game sounds like it would be fun to watch. It sounds tough in its own way. Unfortunately, I have no idea how I can watch it on American TV. If I could, I would be happy to check it out.

The game is Rugby League NOT Rugby Union, these are two different games. You can watch it live on Spike TV spike.com/show/33783 .

Originally Posted by madison_avenue

Yes it's tough but for toughness and artistry it's the Union game. Sheer brilliance here on show from The Barbarians against the all conquering New Zealand All Blacks.

Rugby League is faster, tougher, better defence and far better attacking plays. Its no wonder that Rugby Union has raided League for some of their best international players and has hired League defensive coaches. One of the reason why league is better is because of the point system, field goals and penalty kicks are awarded less points. This encourages teams to actually score a try (touchdowns) instead of a fieldgoal.

Rugby League 2009 State of Origin - Game 3
youtube.com/watch?v=PjJZBN2erhs

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madison_avenue

15 years ago

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

The game is Rugby League NOT Rugby Union, these are two different games. You can watch it live on Spike TV spike.com/show/33783 .

Rugby League is faster, tougher, better defense and far better attacking plays. Its no wonder that Rugby Union has raided League for some of their best international players and has hired League defensive coaches. One of the reason why league is better is because of the point system, field goals and penalty kicks are awarded less points. This encourages teams to actually score a try (touchdowns) instead of a fieldgoal.

Rugby League 2009 State of Origin - Game 3
youtube.com/watch?v=PjJZBN2erhs

What I like about Union is that you have the structure of of the scum's and other set pieces which you can use as a spring board to bring the backs into play. There is more variety in the play, league can get repetitive, tackle get up etc. Whatever shape or speed you are can play Union.

The reason players like Jason Robinson went into Union was because of the money, Union is far bigger game in the UK than league, which is a largely based in the north of England. Although I admit those league blokes are quick and tough!

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garyv

15 years ago

Ok - I must admit that this looks incredibly fun. I'm going to be looking for a way to watch this. I wonder if any of the satellite providers cover this sport. Does anyone know?

YouTube - Australian Rugby Tribute

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solardave

15 years ago

When I was High School age 16-18 I played pickup football. I liked to party to much to play on my high school team. I was clocked by the track coach twice in the 100 yd dash. I ran a 9.8 the first time and 9.6 the second time.Back then they didn't care about your time in the 40 yard dash.However when I was 38 years old I played in a league in Dallas and clocked a 4.5- 40. I was asked if I would like to play in a semi-pro league. As a result of this sport I've had 3 shoulder operations and was told I need a knee replacement.( A 300 pound friend of mine tackled me and I tore everything) As tough as I thought I was growing up I could have never survived the NFL.To say these guys are not the toughest is just nonsense. I also played Rugby and I think it takes a lot of stamina to play it.But they don't get hit by 300+ lineman running full speed from the blindside.

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madison_avenue

15 years ago

Yes it's tough but for toughness and artistry it's the Union game. Sheer brilliance here on show from The Barbarians against the all conquering New Zealand All Blacks.

YouTube - Barbarians try

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TLTheLiberator

15 years ago

Very interesting the rugby, Aussie rules and union stuff.

Does every play look like the play, ( Stanford vs. Cal ) where Cal laterals their way into the end zone on a kickoff or punt return?

- The hits are not as hard as American football simply because players are afraid to get hurt while tackling others - without pads.

Notice all the high arm tackles and no one is diving at anyone's legs.

We've all played tackle football without pads so you know what I'm talking about.

- It's looks like another one of those continuation games ( soccer ) where possession changes often and too much of the game is fought over exactly who has possession of the ball.

- It also lacks the precision of American football and looks quite messy - but all the laterals are cute.

on in bounds plays ( like basketball )...

- When the dude jumps up to catch the ball, they just let him do so instead of taking his legs out from under him - or worse.

I guess it's all about what you've grown up with.

TL

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monaroCountry

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Does every play look like the play, ( Stanford vs. Cal ) where Cal laterals their way into the end zone on a kickoff or punt return?

Yes it does, there is no forward passing in rugby. They can kick and subsequent jump can often look like the forward pass in football.

- The hits are not as hard as American football simply because players are afraid to get hurt while tackling others - without pads.

Notice all the high arm tackles and no one is diving at anyone's legs.

We've all played tackle football without pads so you know what I'm talking about.

Tackling the legs is very much legal and often practiced in rugby league some of the best grand final moments have been try saving leg tackles. This is often done by smaller men when they go up against larger men, this way size advantage no longer matters. Is chop blocking legal in football? I thought this was illegal. In certain situations you cant just tackle the legs since players can still pass the ball (lateral), instead you have to wrap the ball carrier and prevent him from passing the ball.

Its not that players are afraid to get hurt, far from it. The major rugby nations have players train since young, after a while the body do get acustomed to hard hits. Make no mistakes these players tackle as hard as they possible can .

Players are however tought not to be heroes and try to do the flashy but ineffective tackles. The best defence is when the defensive wall pushes up in one unit, this makes it very hard to break through. Rugby players do rush up in a stagnant line in certain situations like field goal attempts, when an overlap is developing, when a team wants to take out another player or when players have a personal fued.

Mark O'Mealy VS Bryce Bibbs
youtube.com/watch?v=8rxhbaVwY_s

- It's looks like another one of those continuation games ( soccer ) where possession changes often and too much of the game is fought over exactly who has possession of the ball.

- It also lacks the precision of American football and looks quite messy - but all the laterals are cute.

on in bounds plays ( like basketball )...

- When the dude jumps up to catch the ball, they just let him do so instead of taking his legs out from under him - or worse.

I guess it's all about what you've grown up with.

TL

I actually like the continuous nature of the game. In the beginning you would normally see the big men use their weight, strength and power to barge through the opposition. Once these men start getting tired at the end of the match youll start seeing the little agile men take advantage and rip through the tiring defenders. You also see players digging deep and play their hearts out even when tired.

I would At this stage I wouldnt expect you to understand why the little things happen, I dont even expect you to see them happening. After you know the rules intimately then youll start seeing how a team plays and how precise they can be. You might only see a bunch of guys running around and tackling.

One thing that is frowned upon is tackling a persons legs in mid flight. This is especially dangerous when that person lands on his head, especially when they do not have a helmet. Correct me if im wrong but isnt this also illegal in football? This does happen though, the tackler usually acts as if it was an accident or that he couldnt have pulled out of the tackle in time, in which case me might not get penalised. Watch (below) close to the end, the guy gets tacked in mid air and lands on his head. I flinch everytime I see this happen in rugby, I like brutal but do not want to see a player paralysed or die.

youtube.com/watch?v=2DnzDS3EzQ4

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Steven Wagenheim 15 years ago

Hey, if you want a tough game, try hitting one round object with another
round object squarely as it's being thrown at you either at speeds of 95
miles an hour of dipping like a freakin drunk after a 10 hour party.

It's the only game where you can fail 70% of the time and still make the
hall of fame.
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TLTheLiberator

15 years ago

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Yes it does, there is no forward passing in rugby. They can kick and subsequent jump can often look like the forward pass in football.

Tackling the legs is very much legal and often practiced in rugby league some of the best grand final moments have been try saving leg tackles. This is often done by smaller men when they go up against larger men, this way size advantage no longer matters. Is chop blocking legal in football? I thought this was illegal. In certain situations you cant just tackle the legs since players can still pass the ball (lateral), instead you have to wrap the ball carrier and prevent him from passing the ball.

Its not that players are afraid to get hurt, far from it. The major rugby nations have players train since young, after a while the body do get acustomed to hard hits. Make no mistakes these players tackle as hard as they possible can.

Players are however tought not to be heroes and try to do the flashy but ineffective tackles. The best defence is when the defensive wall pushes up in one unit, this makes it very hard to break through. Rugby players do rush up in a stagnant line in certain situations like field goal attempts, when an overlap is developing, when a team wants to take out another player or when players have a personal fued.

Mark O'Mealy VS Bryce Bibbs
youtube.com/watch?v=8rxhbaVwY_s

I actually like the continuous nature of the game. In the beginning you would normally see the big men use their weight, strength and power to barge through the opposition. Once these men start getting tired at the end of the match youll start seeing the little agile men take advantage and rip through the tiring defenders. You also see players digging deep and play their hearts out even when tired.

I would At this stage I wouldnt expect you to understand why the little things happen, I dont even expect you to see them happening. After you know the rules intimately then youll start seeing how a team plays and how precise they can be. You might only see a bunch of guys running around and tackling.

One thing that is frowned upon is tackling a persons legs in mid flight. This is especially dangerous when that person lands on his head, especially when they do not have a helmet.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this also illegal in football? This does happen though, the tackler usually acts as if it was an accident or that he couldnt have pulled out of the tackle in time, in which case me might not get penalised. Watch (below) close to the end, the guy gets tacked in mid air and lands on his head. I flinch everytime I see this happen in rugby, I like brutal but do not want to see a player paralysed or die.

youtube.com/watch?v=2DnzDS3EzQ4

Catching a runner in mid air is considered a very good hit and it happens often enough.

If he leaves his feet - he must pay is the defense's mindset.

American football fans will remember John Elway's heroic leap to gain a first down in his first Super Bowl victory after 15 hard years in the league and 2 previous Super Bowl defeats.

He dives, was hit by 3 people, spun around in mid air but made the desperately needed first down anyway.

Here's the highlight! ( fast forward to 38 seconds into the video )

YouTube - Super Bowl XXXII Broncos vs Packers

Watch Darryl Green hurdle a defensive player on a punt return play, ( change of possession play ) on his way to a important touchdown in an 1987 playoff game...

YouTube - Darrell Green - 1987 NFC Divisional...

Thanks for the info! You have cleared up many misconceptions for me.

Neither game is better than the other, they're just different.

TL

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monaroCountry

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Catching a runner in mid air is considered a very good hit and it happens often enough.

If he leaves his feet - he must pay is the defense's mindset.

American football fans will remember John Elway's heroic leap to gain a first down in his first Super Bowl victory after 15 hard years in the league and 2 previous Super Bowl defeats.

He dives, was hit by 3 people, spun around in mid air but made the desperately needed first down anyway.

Here's the highlight! ( fast forward to 38 seconds into the video )

Those type of tackle is very much legal in rugby. I thought the original question was tackling someones legs when they are jumping "When the dude jumps up to catch the ball, they just let him do so instead of taking his legs out from under him". I have seen someone come down on their head in football before but I dont think the type of tackle im refering to is legal, even in football.

Watch Darryl Green hurdle a defensive player on a punt return play, ( change of possession play ) on his way to a important touchdown in an 1987 playoff game...

This is one of the reason why going for the legs isnt the best tackling option, players could just jump or avoid you, its also very hard to grab the legs, especially when they have great leg drives. I actually blame the tackler for that miss, he didnt seem like he was even looking.

Aussie Rules football is like a bar brawl with a ball in there somewhere.

Its fun to watch though, pretty good reason to drink beer. But they would get the crap kicked out of them if they were all padless on an nfl field.

Aussie Rules are the ugly duckling in world football (sorry Victorians), as a New South Welshman I find it hard to understand why Victorians love that game. It seems that AFL is now actively poaching League players too, just like Rugby Union who loves to recruit League players for the national side.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

One thing that is frowned upon is tackling a persons legs in mid flight. This is especially dangerous when that person lands on his head, especially when they do not have a helmet. Correct me if im wrong but isnt this also illegal in football? This does happen though, the tackler usually acts as if it was an accident or that he couldnt have pulled out of the tackle in time, in which case me might not get penalised. Watch (below) close to the end, the guy gets tacked in mid air and lands on his head. I flinch everytime I see this happen in rugby, I like brutal but do not want to see a player paralysed or die.

The only thing illegal is to have a helmet to helmet tackle before the receiver takes a step or two, and this is a new rule only a few years old.

In our football, hitting the person trying to catch a pass as hard and violently as possible is part of the game of intimidation. Hit a guy hard enough, and they may think more about getting hit next time than catching the ball. There's plenty of receivers that don't like to go over the "middle" (middle of the field where there are more defenders)

Here's some of John Lynch's "geatest hits"...

YouTube - JOHN LYNCH BIG HITS!!!!

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rondo

15 years ago

Here's a good comparison video of Rugby and Gridiron. Lots of big hits:

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tomw

15 years ago

This thread is priceless!

Reminds me of the time I overhead a group of women trying to explain the offside rule to each other during a football (soccer) match in The Sports Bar, Piccadilly.

But then, I guess it's like me trying to explain the American preoccupation with what we in the UK call "rounders" - a game played by young girls while the boys play rugby or football.

Also, Rugby is an English game, not Australian. Rugby Union was created first and was, until the 1990s, a purely amateur game. The Rugby League was set up in order for a professional (paid) discipline to evolve away from ridiculous (MCC-like!) control of the blue blazer brigade at the RFU.

It's a difficult game to fully understand, and even though I played both codes (Union for school and Lancashire, League for Widnes) I honestly don't think I ever fully understood all the rules!

So, I'm not laughing at you guys, but with you.

The RFU was a complete nightmare. As soon as I signed on to be a junior Rugby League player for Widnes I was *banned* from ever playing Union again - even for my school!

Stupid rules like this are part of the larger reason why players like Rob Andrew and Will Carling pressurised the RFU to initially pay players proper expenses and a percentage of sponsorship for appearing at the Rugby World Cup. They also hoped it would prevent many of the best players moving from Union to League, which was going through a renaissance at the time, as happened with players like Johnathon Davies, who came to play at Widnes.

Of course once the rule concerning payment had changed at the RFU, the floodgates opened...and now we have two professional codes.

It also facilitated some players, like Martin Offiah and Jason Robinson, to play a season in the UK and then play the season in Aus. Thereby, actually playing two season per year and being paid twice. This pattern is commonplace nowadays.

The real silver lining is that as a result of all this I was allowed to play Union again and was invited to represent my school's Old Boys. I never did take them up on the offer though...I watch a game now and can't believe I used to play it. You've got to be some kind of lunatic to even contemplate it or be bullied into it by your housemaster as a scrawny, terrified 11 year old - unceremoniously dumped into an oversize, musty school kit with a pungent aroma that, now I am remembering it all, I can smell as though still wearing it.

(It's amazing how the brain works - will we ever truly understand it - but that's a whole other topic!).

Maybe I'm just hurtling towards middle age...

Tom

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madison_avenue

15 years ago

I don't understand why more American football players, who don't make the grade at NFL don't play rugby union, it would be a good alternative for them. With their build and athletic ability would make them perfect . US players that don't make the grade in NFL could easily earn $100,000 in Europe playing Union for a club. The USA had a team in the Rugby world cup, they could have a decent team if they got some ex NFL players involved, if they did well then rugby union could really take off on the US.

YouTube - Welsh Rugby! - Sidestep Wizards!

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Aussie Rules football is like a bar brawl with a ball in there somewhere.

Its fun to watch though, pretty good reason to drink beer. But they would get the crap kicked out of them if they were all padless on an nfl field.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Nuh ah!

My sport is better than your sport.

Nya, nya, nya!

It's senseless to argue about who's tougher. As mentioned, each sport requires a different set of disciplines, skills, builds, and abilities. That doesn't make one guy tougher than the other.

Here's the plan.

Let's get a few NFL players, Rugby Union players, and Rugby League players--each wering their normal uniforms and padding.

With me so far?

Ok, now...let's put all of them in the middle of a bullfight with a charging bull running around. My guess is they would all look equally "tough" in about two seconds.

Live and let live.

Play and let play.

But don't get me in that bullring. I run too slow, and I would be the only one left for the bull to go after.

All the best,
Michael

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Nuh ah!

My sport is better than your sport.

Nya, nya, nya!

It's senseless to argue about who's tougher. As mentioned, each sport requires a different set of disciplines, skills, builds, and abilities. That doesn't make one guy tougher than the other.

Here's the plan.

Let's get a few NFL players, Rugby Union players, and Rugby League players--each wering their normal uniforms and padding.

With me so far?

Ok, now...let's put all of them in the middle of a bullfight with a charging bull running around. My guess is they would all look equally "tough" in about two seconds.

Live and let live.

Play and let play.

But don't get me in that bullring. I run too slow, and I would be the only one left for the bull to go after.

All the best,
Michael

The Americans on this thread (and another) have all shown respect for all collision sports.

I suggest you reread the OP. In two different threads Ron has basically said American football players aren't as tough as rugby players, Aussie football players...

...Although I do find Ron's attempted insult about kickers kind of amusing, considering there's only been two Aussie rule football players in the NFL, and they were both punters.

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monaroCountry

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

The Americans on this thread (and another) have all shown respect for all collision sports.

I suggest you reread the OP. In two different threads Ron has basically said American football players aren't as tough as rugby players, Aussie football players...

...Although I do find Ron's attempted insult about kickers kind of amusing, considering there's only been two Aussie rule football players in the NFL, and they were both punters.

There are allot more Aussies who have played NFL than just two. There hasnt been a straight conversion from rugby to the NFL but those Polynesian players in the NFL either come from a rugby mad Nation or have the typical build of rugby players that the Rugby fraternity typically draws its players from.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

my guess is that as soon as the unpadded guys met NFL padding and helmets, the game would be over with.

I dont care how tough you are. If my head is protected in a state of the art piece of equipment ment to encase my head and pad it for standards that would make most car manufacturers envious, and you show up with nothing on but a fresh haircut and a smile, when our heads meet on the field, i'm pretty sure you're getting the fuzzy end of this lollipop

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TLTheLiberator

15 years ago

As far as I'm concerned, nothing in sports beats the forward pass play of American Football.

Check this one out... ( forward to 2:20 of the clip )

YouTube - New!!! Donovan McNabb Highlights

TL

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

And P.S. I know this isnt on the same topic, but did anyone happent to see the previously unknown (and raned 25) USF Bulls put the whoop to their biggers cousins, the number 18 ranked Florida State?

it was a joyus occasion around here and there has been much trash talk that has followed.

Its been a major coup that a football team that is just over a decade old, was able to kick the crap out of a well established program like FSU

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